Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
National Security and Defence
Issue 9 - Evidence - October 19, 2009
OTTAWA, Monday, October 19, 2009
The Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence met this day at 4:02 p.m. to examine and report on the national security policy of Canada (topic: RCMP in transition).
Senator Colin Kenny (Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Chair: Welcome. Before we begin, I want to introduce briefly the members of the committee.
My name is Colin Kenny and I chair the committee. On my far right is Senator Rod Zimmer from Winnipeg, Manitoba. He has had a long and distinguished career in business and philanthropy. He has been a member of the Senate since August of 2005, and also is a member of the Standing Senate Committee on Transport and Communications.
[Translation]
To his left is Senator Pierre-Claude Nolin, from Quebec. He is a lawyer and has been called to the Senate in June 1993. Senator Nolin is currently vice-chair of the Senate Standing Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs, and he sits also on the Senate Standing Committee on Rules, Procedures and Rights of Parliament.
[English]
On his left is Senator Wilfred Moore, who was called to the Senate in 1996. He represents the senatorial division of Stanhope Street/South Shore, Nova Scotia. He has been active at the city level in Halifax/Dartmouth and has served as a member of the board of governors of Saint Mary's University. He is also a member of the Standing Senate Committee on Banking, Trade and Commerce and the Standing Joint Committee for the Scrutiny of Regulations.
Beside him is Senator Tommy Banks from Alberta. He was called to the Senate in April of 2000. He is known to many Canadians as an accomplished and versatile musician and entertainer. Senator Banks is a member of the Standing Senate Committee on Energy, the Environment and Natural Resources.
To my immediate right is Senator Hector Daniel Lang, who has made Yukon his home for more than 50 years. First elected to the Yukon Legislative Assembly in 1974, Senator Lang served five consecutive terms, retiring from the legislature in 1992. Active in community affairs, he is the former Vice-Chair of the Board of Governors of Yukon College. Senator Lang is a member of the Standing Senate Committee on Energy, the Environment and Natural Resources.
On my left is Senator Pamela Wallin from Saskatchewan. She was appointed to the Senate in January 2009. After a long and distinguished career in journalism, Senator Wallin went on to serve as Consul General of Canada in New York, and also served on the special Independent Panel on Canada's Future Role in Afghanistan. She is deputy chair of the Defence Committee and is also a member of the Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade.
On her left is Senator Joseph Day from New Brunswick, where he is well known as a private-practice attorney and engineer. He has served in the Senate of Canada since 2001. Senator Day sits on the board of governors of the Royal Military College of Canada and he currently chairs the Standing Senate Committee on National Finance.
At the end of the table, we have Senator Fabian Manning. He has dedicated his career to serving Newfoundlanders and Labradorians at all three levels of government. He was appointed to the Senate in January 2009. He also chairs the Conservative government's Atlantic caucus and is a member of the Standing Senate Committee on Fisheries and Oceans.
Colleagues, we have before us today a team of officers from Depot Division. We have Assistant Commissioner Roger Brown, the commanding officer of Depot Division, a proud Newfoundlander, I should add, and Labradorian. Assistant Commissioner Brown joined the RCMP in 1980. Following training, he was assigned general duties in Rivière-du-Loup and later in Grand Bank. He then served as an investigator in federal enforcement in Gander, where he performed general detachment and drug enforcement duties.
In 1993, he was transferred to the RCMP Academy, Depot Division in Regina, Saskatchewan, where he served as an instructor until 1997. In 2002, he was appointed to the rank of chief superintendent and appointed to the position of Officer in Charge of Human Resources for the RCMP Central Region. On June 16, 2008, Assistant Commissioner Brown assumed duties of Commanding Officer of Depot Division, thereby becoming the fifty-fifth commanding officer of the RCMP Academy.
Assistant Commissioner Brown has extensive experience in the field of human resources, having completed studies at the University of Toronto's Rotman School of Business, St. Francis Xavier University, Dalhousie University and the University of Waterloo.
With him is Chief Superintendent R.T., Bob, Smart, training officer, Depot Division. Chief Superintendent Smart joined the RCMP in February of 1974 from Halifax. He studied French for three months prior to attending Depot Division, where he took his basic training in both official languages. Upon graduation, Chief Superintendent Smart was posted first to "C" Division in Quebec for one year and then "D" Division, Manitoba. He performed a wide range of policing duties at a cross-section of detachments throughout the province.
In 1989, Chief Superintendent Smart transferred to Depot as an instructor in the operational training unit. He returned to Manitoba in 1993, serving in two more detachments before being transferred back to Depot to the Applied Police Sciences Section in 1998. He was commissioned as the Officer In Charge of the Canadian Law Enforcement Training Unit in 2003. In 2004, Chief Superintendent Smart became the officer in charge of the Cadet Training Program. In August of 2005, he assumed his current duties as training officer, Depot Division.
Included therein is the responsibility for both program content and delivery of all training programs at Depot, including Police Dog Service Training Centre and all decisions relative to cadet status in the Cadet Training Program.
We welcome you both. I understand you have a brief opening statement, and we look forward to hearing it.
Assistant Commissioner Roger L. Brown, Commanding Officer, Depot Division, Royal Canadian Mounted Police: We did not prepare an opening statement. We were prepared to introduce ourselves.
The Chair: Then so much the better.
[Translation]
Senator Nolin: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am not a regular on this committee, and some of my questions might have already been asked by colleagues.
Good afternoon, gentlemen. I am glad to meet officers in charge of the RCMP cadet training.
In 1994, the RCMP created its national and international police training unit. I do not know is you are aware of the reasons behind the creation of this service. If so, I would ask you to explain to me why the RCMP has decided to extend its services beyond its own cadets.
[English]
Mr. Brown: I want to make sure Mr. Smart is aware.
Senator Nolin: I am asking if you are familiar with why that service was created. I want an understanding as to what made the RCMP enter that business of having so many clients.
Chief Superintendent Bob Smart, Training Officer, Depot Division, Royal Canadian Mounted Police: Personally, I am not familiar with the history that led to that service.
Senator Nolin: How much money is made out of that service on a yearly basis?
Mr. Smart: I am not in a position to answer that question at all.
Senator Nolin: In the briefing notes I have in front of me, you train 72 troops per year. Is that right?
Mr. Smart: If I can clarify, at Depot Division we have ramped up our infrastructure and our resources to have the capacity to train up to 72 cadet troops per year. That is our current on-site capacity.
Senator Nolin: Are you reaching that goal?
Mr. Smart: We train for what the demands of the force call for. For instance, last fiscal year, we gated or trained 56 or 57 troops. This year, I am not sure of the troop number at this stage, but it is based upon the demand. The effect is almost like an accordian; we have the capacity at Depot Division to go to unprecedented levels in terms of what the organization needs to meet the requirements across the country. We train what the organization sends us and what the organization says it needs. We make sure we have the facilitators and resources in place to make that accommodation.
Senator Nolin: I presume that your priority is to train your own recruits?
Mr. Smart: Absolutely.
Senator Nolin: Then, if you have enough time and resources, you train the rest?
Mr. Smart: Yes; in fact, our core business is cadet training.
Senator Nolin: I want to understand how your time is spent between your own recruits and the other clients.
Mr. Smart: Let me go back a couple of years. Our primary business at Depot Division is to train RCMP cadets. Historically, we have trained inductee candidates from other federal departments, for example, the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. This spring at Depot Division — I stand to be corrected whether it was this spring or early in the calendar year — the Department of Fisheries and Oceans would have had training take place at Depot Division. The training happened on-site at Depot Division.
Some of the establishment at Depot Division, by way of example, the facilitators who work within the Cadet Training Program, supported delivery of that training. They were called upon to assist with that training, but that training was led and managed by our International and National Law Enforcement Training unit, INLET. The on-site manager of that unit at Depot Division was a staff sergeant whose line authority was within the area of learning and development, which is located here in Ottawa.
Senator Nolin: I want to understand clearly: You provide the facilities, but someone else provides the staff to achieve that service?
Mr. Smart: We provide facilities and we support the INLET unit with trained facilitators to support delivery.
For example, part of the training program includes firearms training and certain standards of driver training. When they go to the range to take their firearms training or go to our track to take driver training, our Cadet Training Program facilitators support delivery of that program. We assist with that training.
Senator Nolin: From my notes, I understand that you also provide those external services — I am reading that from my notes — to the United States of America. I want to understand how you provide those services. Where does the training take place?
Mr. Smart: I am not familiar with that at all.
Senator Nolin: If you are not familiar, my notes are wrong.
Mr. Smart: My primary function at Depot Division is as a training officer. My responsibility is the Cadet Training Program, both program and delivery, meaning our program unit, which is comprised of police officers and subject matter experts; but, most importantly, our educational specialists, our program designers and educational methodologists, which are the brains behind the program. There is also the delivery of that material, which is provided by our regular member police officer facilitator-instructors. That program is my primary responsibility.
Mr. Brown: If I may clarify, I can go back to the year 1974-75 with respect to statistics that I can provide to the committee with regard to who we had at Depot Division for training. We have had armed bordering; the Canadian Coast Guard; the community hospital program; the Department of Citizenship and Immigration; employment and immigration; the First Nations Youth Program; fishery officer Haitian training; the RCMP band and provost, which was the conversion training; peace officer training; and warden recruit training.
Those groups came into Depot over a period of time. The amount of training was totally dependent upon capacity of Depot at that particular time. Our first priority, as you can well imagine, was the Cadet Training Program.
The number of troops that went through Depot between 1974 until today ranged from the lowest point of three troops in a year to 57 troops that we were able to put through last year, which, as Mr. Smart mentioned, speaks to the capacity at Depot right now. Our capacity overall is to deal with 72 troops of regular member cadet training that we have the ability to deal with at this particular point in time.
The Chair: I think Senator Nolin was referring to the International and National Law Enforcement Training Unit, INLET, and that has covered a number of countries, has it not?
Mr. Smart: We do not necessarily know much about that unit because it is not a business line at Depot Division.
The Chair: It is only co-located.
Mr. Smart: That is right. It does not report through the commanding officer. It is not part of Depot Division. I apologize for the confusion.
Senator Nolin: When you are training other officers from other departments, I totally understand. I think it is normal because you are working in the field with those people and you want to share the understanding. I am sure I am right in understanding that situation.
Mr. Smart: We train other officers within the RCMP Cadet Training Program, because we have agreements with some First Nation policing departments. By way of example, the Blood Tribe in southern Alberta uses the RCMP training academy and the Cadet Training Program as its basic training program. As they need to fill positions in their department, they send their cadets to Depot. They are fully integrated into an RCMP cadet troop. They take the exact same program, they are supported through that program and they meet the same standards.
We have had that relationship for a number of years and it has been advanced to the point where in the last three and a half to four years, we have built a stronger bridge with the Blood Tribe, where we have invested in development of some of their key personnel. We bring them to Depot Division on secondment and we have a placement with them in our academic centre and in our academic program, and we support their growth and development as a facilitator.
We currently have one member from the Blood Tribe working as a facilitator in the Cadet Training Program who is doing an absolutely fantastic job. The program demonstrates a lot of good things in terms of the organization working in partnership with other agencies. It also gives a line of sight in terms of the kind of relationships that we have with some of the departments we work with.
Senator Nolin: Your recruits now receive an allowance of $500 a week. How does that allowance compare with other students or recruits at Depot? Do they also receive equal amounts from their own superiors?
Mr. Brown: I do not know exactly the amounts they receive. I know this morning, a troop of fisheries and oceans officers started a five-week period at Depot. How they are remunerated within their own department, I am not sure.
Senator Nolin: Do they receive something?
Mr. Brown: I assume they do but I am not sure.
Senator Moore: Thank you, witnesses, for being here. I wanted to follow up on Senator Nolin's questions. You provide training for personnel from the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, DFO. Do you also provide the training for the border personnel?
Mr. Smart: The RCMP is engaged in training both those federal departments, including the Canada Border Services Agency. Depot personnel support delivery of some of those programs, but Depot does not lead that training.
Mr. Brown: That training totally depends upon capacity. That is why there was more training in some years than in others. When there was a need for higher capacity to train more cadets, the training for outside agencies decreased. That effect was the accordion effect to which Bob referred.
Senator Moore: If you are running at maximum capacity, with all the cadets you can handle, and a DFO unit or a unit from the Canada Border Services Agency wanted to be trained, what happens?
Mr. Smart: In the last fiscal year, for instance, we ran a high troop gate and the Canadian Border Services Agency was looking at firearms training. What we provided to the coordinators who led that training was the envelope available to use the range outside of what was committed to our cadet troops. At one period, they used range in the evenings and on the weekends to meet the requirements of their training program. We provided all the support to them we could for their training, within our capacity.
Senator Wallin: Thank you again for being here today.
On the capacity question you have been speaking to, do you have enough capacity? Is the facility adequate? Is the money adequate? Is the capacity adequate? I did not say "great"; I said "adequate."
Mr. Brown: We have been fortunate in the last little while with respect to the funding we have received to allow us to bring the infrastructure up to a point where we now have a capacity to deal with up to 72 troops a year. As was stated, last year we trained 57 troops.
From that perspective, with the facilities, as some of you have seen or will see, the answer is yes. We are fortunate right now that we do have the ability to meet the needs, especially the needs of the organization with respect to the Cadet Training Program. Because we have had that capacity primarily in the last three years, and we have graduated record numbers of cadets, we have been able to meet a lot of the operational needs across Canada from coast-to-coast- to-coast. We anticipate that the need for Depot's capacity from cadets will decrease, which is a normal way of operating when we have trained the people and met the needs in the field.
I am confident with respect to our overall abilities right now to meet the operational needs based on Depot with respect to human resources, infrastructure, and the money that we have to operate the facility.
Senator Wallin: The other revenue stream sources, with DFO or whatever organization — Canada Border Services Agency, and so on — do you need to provide that training or do you want to provide that training?
Mr. Brown: It is not as much a need, as the training would be offered on a cost recovery basis to another federal government agency. When we are talking staff, we are not necessarily talking only about the instructors. The infrastructure I have at Depot includes custodial and mess staff. We have the capacity right now to feed and house, for lack of a better word, up to 800 people a day. If our troop loads go down to 400, 450 on base, we have a capacity to bring in another 350 more.
Senator Wallin: Increasing the number of troops would generate money?
Mr. Brown: It would generate money on a cost-recovery basis. The intent is not to make money from another federal government agency, but to offset the costs that I have as a commanding officer within Depot Division. We worked through costs of learning and development in Ottawa, and we have come up with formulas where we believe are fair: in other words, what we charge them for the instructors, for the cars on the track, for the ammunition at the range and the like.
Mr. Smart: If I may offer something else in terms of what the commanding officer said, whether we train 20 troops or 72 troops, we have built the infrastructure to allow us to deliver the Cadet Training Program in the same way to each and every troop. No one has a diminished training experience because we are at full capacity with the resources and required facilitators we have in place.
The Cadet Training Program is extremely resource dependent. In the old recruit program pre-1994, a recruit came to the RCMP training academy, to Depot, and over the course of a six-month training experience was exposed to one scenario or integrated learning opportunity. Right now, in the Cadet Training Program, every cadet is exposed to in excess of 120 different scenarios in all disciplines. That experience requires space to manage those things. We have the capacity not to diminish that experience, regardless of the troop total.
Senator Wallin: I have a couple of quick points. Some have raised the notion of the need for a post-secondary degree amongst recruits. We have had lots of testimony on this need recently. I am puzzled by such a requirement, but can you speak to that point?
Mr. Brown: Personally, I do not see the need at this point in time. I have had the opportunity to meet each and every troop as they started Depot over the last year, and to learn about the life experiences that come into the room. Everyone is probably well aware that the average age of the cadets that come to Depot right now is 27 to 28 years. We have people who come to Depot with university degrees. Some have finished one career and want to start a second one.
We also have others, such as a cadet that started last week, who is an example to follow. He was 18 when he arrived at Depot and graduated when he was 19 years old. Prior to that cadet, we had a 19-year-old who was the de facto peer leader of the troop. That 19-year-old did not have a university degree and he displayed exemplary leadership abilities.
I joined when I was 19 years old. Most of the post-secondary education I took was after I was in the organization; recruits move along as they manoeuvre through the organization. Again, it totally depends upon the career path they choose.
If we were to say that all applicants within the RCMP must have a university degree, I think we would limit the pool of applicants and it would hinder us as an organization in moving ahead in some areas. Let us not forget either that some of the career paths within the RCMP require a university degree. For that reason, I know that the recruiting teams focus their efforts in universities and so on if they are trying to find people with education with respect to accounting, for example, to go into market enforcement, commercial crime or whatever.
However, out of the 750-plus detachments across Canada, we also require people with good leadership skills that want to be a general duty police officer in a variety of places across Canada. To me, having a university degree is not necessary at that point in their career. If they want to pursue a university degree or add on to their education after, it is certainly feasible. I am speaking from personal experience with respect to me, my son who is also in the force or to the cadets who join the force right now.
Senator Wallin: I have a question on mentoring. Concern has been raised in a few quarters about the issue of mentoring — whether inside the force or in the six-month, post-Depot training, you have people with adequate or appropriate experience to mentor. In other words, you do not have someone who is brand new off the street mentoring someone else that is almost brand new off the street, or vice versa.
Mr. Smart: I will answer the second part first in terms of post-graduation, the field coach program. There is a minimum requirement of two years' service for an individual to be a field coach in the RCMP. Prior to becoming a field coach, they take a course so they are properly positioned to provide coaching to that graduate over the course of the six-month period.
Within the Cadet Training Program, the program is 24 weeks in length. There is lots of peer, step-peer and facilitator mentoring that occurs throughout that 24 weeks to support their growth and development and ensure their success upon graduation in moving on to that other piece, which is the field coach program.
Mr. Brown: The field coach program right now is six months in length. The first eight weeks, as Mr. Smart said, is direct supervision. In other words, when a cadet graduates from Depot and goes out into the field, their first eight weeks is side by side with another member. They must attain a competency level before they go on to the next two thirds of the field coaching program, which is the next four months.
For the following four months, totally dependent on how they performed in the first two, the supervision is not side- by-side; it is an indirect supervision. They do not fill an operational position at the detachment and they do not go as a sole respondent to a call without supervision.
The field coaching program is designed for six months. However, if a cadet goes out in the field coaching program and displays any amount of difficulty, before they are signed off by the field coach and the non-commissioned officer or the officer in charge, OIC, of the detachment or the person responsible for the overall field coaching program in that division, province or region, they must be signed off on all competencies.
They are not put out there without the field coach and without the proper training because we are fully aware that the first six months at Depot is basic training. The full training is six months at Depot, followed by another six months in the field.
The cadets that are chosen to be coaches in the field also are coaches that exemplify good leadership skills and have a minimum of two years' experience. Those chosen to be coaches partake in a course that is geared exactly toward the field coaching program, with a focus on the competencies required of them to be able to see whether the cadet is proficient in moving onward within that particular program.
Senator Lang: I want to follow up on the question of recruitment. The average-age statistic is 28 years of age for a recruit presently, is that correct?
Mr. Smart: It is 27 to 28 years of age for the cadet in training.
Senator Lang: That age for an applicant is considerably older than it was 10 years ago?
Mr. Smart: I do not know definitively, but I suspect it has gone up a little bit, yes.
Senator Lang: Concern has been expressed that a number of RCMP are at the stage of retiring. We are replacing them, but a number of RCMP have less than five years' experience and there is concern about the ability to police with limited years of experience on the beat is concerned.
With the recruits being older, does that increased age not bring a lot more life skills and abilities to cope with problems when they are presented, as opposed to a younger member generally?
Mr. Brown: Absolutely.
Senator Lang: Are you finding that increased age is a real bonus to you at Depot when you have these older men and women who decide to change direction in their careers?
Mr. Brown: Absolutely; we have had people come into a troop that were a school teacher and a principal of a school. Obviously, they have life experiences that put them in a better position.
In the field, and Mr. Smart can speak to this point as well, the Cadet Training Program is focused on problem solving. It is focused on the cadets having the ability to de-escalate situations, to communicate properly and to exemplify leadership within the community at all levels. When someone brings those life experiences into the classroom and out into the field, we are obviously much better positioned.
It is erroneous to look solely at experience as a police officer, as opposed to experience in totality; what cadets brought into the room and added on to their policing experience. I am confident with respect to the abilities of the cadets going out into the field right now, in addition to the life experiences that they bring in.
Senator Lang: Are we reaching the rate of retirement that was projected by the RCMP? When they come to retirement age, I have read that some are staying on in view of the situation, maybe economically or otherwise, and we are not necessarily seeing the retirement numbers we usually see.
Mr. Smart: I am not aware of our statistics with respect to what we were forecasting and what the actual case is. I do not know that information.
Mr. Brown: Attrition has never been a big issue within the RCMP. A lot of members do full careers in the RCMP. It is a rewarding career. A lot of members work the full 30 or 35 years.
Obviously, if someone joins at the age of 40, there are some issues with retirement. However, if we look at the projected attrition rate over the next few years, it is not all that high. I do not see attrition as a big issue right now.
Senator Lang: We are meeting all the demands that we need to meet from the point of view of Depot as far as replacing members and being able to fulfil responsibilities to provide cadets. Is that correct?
Mr. Brown: Absolutely; I guess we can look at the situation as supply and demand. Depot will supply, based on one of three things: new positions created by new funding from a provincial, municipal or federal government; existing vacancies; or attrition. Only one of three is happening.
As I said earlier, because of the infrastructure and the resources that we have in place now, we are capable of meeting the demands right across this country. If one province or another increases the demand, we are in a position to respond to that increase. We are also in a position to slow down, if need be.
If we train an average of 50-plus cadet troops a year, which is somewhere in the range of 1,500 or 1,600 cadets a year — as we did in the last three years — there is a saturation point. We are an organization of just under 20,000 regular members. To train 4,500 in a three-year period is a lot. We had existing vacancies but when they are filled and no new positions are created and the attrition rate remains somewhat stable, we do not need to train that many more.
Then we must be in a position to respond according to what Senator Nolin referred to. We have the capacity to deal with 72 troops a year. If we train 30 or 35 cadet troops a year, then we can increase our capacity with our federal government agencies, internal training within the RCMP, block training, in-service training, leadership, executive training and so on because the Depot has the capacity to deal with that increase from an infrastructure and human resource perspective.
Senator Lang: From the point of view of applications to join the RCMP, are we receiving more applications than positions that we need now, or are we filling capacity?
Mr. Brown: Deputy Commissioner Peter Martin probably spoke about this item last week. We have had an intensive recruiting program that has been ongoing for the last little while. That recruiting initiative has yielded high numbers, but not only high numbers. More important is the competencies that came through the door. The level of people who are applying to join the RCMP is phenomenal.
Mr. Smart and I are fortunate because we are the recipients of those competencies. The level of people joining is high. I am sure that, because of that recruiting initiative, right now we are meeting the needs. We probably have more people on the list than we are able to enroll, when we look at the numbers issue again.
Senator Lang: That is a nice position to be in.
Mr. Brown: That is a comfortable position to be in. The citizens of Canada will benefit because we will be in a position to choose the people that we feel are the right people to join this organization to further what we are trying to do as an organization in transition as we all know.
Senator Lang: I want to move to one other area and that is the question of minorities.
At any given time, if I went to Depot, are your gender differences roughly 80 to 20 or 83 to 17, where women are the 17 per cent? Are those the numbers, generally?
Mr. Smart: Yes.
Senator Lang: I see you have exceeded your visible minority recruitment from what was projected for this year, but you are down in the area of First Nations. In the recruitment of future applicants, are you doing more to try to attract First Nations into the force? That begs the question of what educational backgrounds are required. Do you have any comments on that subject?
Mr. Brown: Absolutely; you have highlighted that nothing is perfect in any organization. We need to put more focus on that area; namely, on the hiring of Aboriginal people.
We had two troops — one last year — of Aboriginal youth that came to Depot for a three-week orientation period. They then go out in the field and work alongside regular members. Of those numbers, right now 21 in the first group are applicants within the RCMP and are going through the process. This year, this particular summer, we put through another troop of 32 summer students. Out of that 32, 22 are applicants within the RCMP. They are in the process somewhere.
As you can probably appreciate, the process goes more quickly for some than others. Obviously, there is an interview process, a polygraph process and exam process. We have a mentorship program as well, focused on assisting individuals in preparing for the RCMP police recruiting test that they have to take.
I have a success story of a cadet, and I know this cadet well. A cadet by the name of Desmond Jackson was in that first summer troop. He graduated two weeks ago. In fact, he spoke at the memorial service and was a cadet who led his troop with respect to his leadership abilities within the troop. He started off in a summer student program for the three weeks. He went out in the field. He honed his skills and came back to Depot and performed extremely well as a cadet.
We know as an organization that we need to focus our efforts more in that particular area but, overall, as an organization, we continually bring in Aboriginal youth within the RCMP. Our numbers are increasing steadily. However, if we were to aim for a specific number, the last number of years we have had some difficulty recruiting them.
If I go back to Deputy Martin's area in recruiting, that area is one we are aware of and an area where we are focusing our efforts. I am sure that the efforts in the areas we are focusing on will yield results within the next couple of years, and we will see our overall numbers increase.
If I look at Depot as a capacity, presently almost nine per cent of our regular and civilian member employees at Depot are Aboriginal. We also have about nine per cent who are of a visible minority, and 28 per cent that are female.
At Depot, as a division, we take this issue seriously. In other words, when a cadet comes into Depot Division, what do they see? They see a good representation of the organization in front of them. They are good role models for others that come in, whether they come in through a summer student program, an orientation program or the like.
Senator Lang: That information was good to hear. I have no doubt that your numbers will increase substantially in the next couple of years, especially with the troops that you already have on hand.
The Chair: Assistant commissioner, what did David Brown say regarding vacancies in the RCMP? What comments did he make about vacancies in the Brown reports?
Mr. Brown: What comments did he make regarding the members being overworked and stressed with respect to the vacancies?
The Chair: Yes, and what did he say about what he experienced when he went through every detachment.
Mr. Brown: He experienced the early signs of burnout with the members and disillusionment with the need to bring numbers up to speed. I think we have taken that need seriously with respect to bringing those numbers up to where they need to be at the divisions.
The Chair: Did he mention that every detachment he went into was between 25 per cent and 30 per cent short?
Mr. Brown: He did.
The Chair: Have you resolved that problem; is that situation no longer a problem?
Mr. Brown: I am probably not the best person to answer that question. I will leave it at that.
The Chair: If you do not want to go there, I do not want to push it.
We have received testimony in the committee that there are few vacancies in contract policing but lots of vacancies in federal policing.
Mr. Brown: Yes; obviously, federal policing is a different business line with a different funding model. I sit at Depot, which is, as I said, at the other end of the supply and demand chain. A lot of the federal positions are funded from the contract positions. If the organization decides to fill federal positions using contract positions where the skill sets are and where members build up skill sets, and there is a need then to backfill those contract positions, Depot is in a position to respond. That is my main concern.
The Chair: However, personnel are going from federal to contract because you have an obligation to keep contract positions as close to 100 per filled as you can. The vacancies in contract are around 2 per cent. Is that correct? Yet vacancies in federal are 10 times higher.
Mr. Brown: Vacancies are 10 times higher than in the contracts; yes, that is correct.
The Chair: You commented to Senator Lang a moment ago about visible minorities, females and Aboriginals. Yet, 7.1 per cent of the force currently is made up of visible minorities. What per cent of Canadians are visible minorities?
Mr. Brown: Right now? I am not sure.
The Chair: Is it about 50 per cent?
Mr. Brown: I do not think so.
The Chair: It is close.
Senator Day: In some cities.
The Chair: Is it plus or minus 5 per cent or 10 per cent?
Mr. Brown: Maybe; however, you have to take that in context, in all fairness. Not everyone wants to choose a career in policing. If we look at some of the visible minority groups in Canada, not all would choose a career in policing from the start. As people arrive in the country and come to understand and know what we are as an organization — as I explained to Senator Lang earlier — I think those numbers will increase as well. We are starting to see that increase on an annual basis.
The Chair: It is disturbing to see your target for visible minorities at 5.2 per cent and you already have 7.1 per cent in the RCMP. Why are you aiming down rather than up with regard to visible minorities?
Mr. Brown: Depot is not. We are not the ones to set the numbers. They are set by human resources.
The Chair: It is fair enough. We have the deputy here.
Mr. Brown: I do not want to blame my boss.
The Chair: He is here and I am sure we can ask him to respond.
Senator Zimmer: As we discussed before we started, I am always delighted to see folks from Regina. I have a love- hate relationship with that famous swimming pool there. As I explained to you, I took my Lifesaving Society bronze medallion during my university years to go out and teach during the summer. By chance, one of my students — who was young at the time — was a senator sitting here today, Senator Wallin. The famous pool, as you know, was the last thing candidates had to pass. An RCMP officer was placed in the middle of the pool and the rookie was told to save the officer. The officer floated like a shark with the water below nose level. If the rookie got it wrong, the officer drowned; if the rookie got it right, the officer lived. I will always remember that pool.
Mr. Smart: We all have fond memories of that pool.
Senator Zimmer: Senator Wallin asked you questions about your funding. You almost seemed too happy. A number of challenges and controversies in recent years have been the subject of media reports, independent examinations, parliamentary discussions and reviews. Can you expand on the challenges and controversies you face today?
Mr. Brown: Is that challenges and controversies organizationally or at Depot?
Senator Zimmer: At both.
Mr. Brown: That question is a broad one.
If we look at and take seriously the Brown task force and its recommendations, and the RCMP Reform Implementation Council dealing with the organization from the point of view of trust, transparency, accountability, leadership and governance, those reports probably tell us some of the areas on which we need to focus.
As a commanding officer of one division across Canada, Depot Division, that area is the area on which I focus with cadets. As most of you know, Depot is the training ground where cadets are grounded. It takes place in the formative years of their induction into the organization with respect to history, tradition and expectations. Getting it right at Depot is of utmost importance for me.
I will not go into this area unless there is a need from the committee. Mr. Smart, my staff and I at Depot have been focused on what we can do to ensure that cadets leaving Depot and going into the field to start their field coaching program are cognizant of a series of items: the recommendations; the communication issues required; their requirements in leadership; and the transparency issue in answering questions on a one-on-one client-police officer situation at the detachment level or in the communities that they are working. Those are the challenges I am working on.
I had a conversation with the commissioner prior to going to Depot as a commanding officer. If am there as a commanding officer for three years and have 3,500 or 4,000 people going through the program, and if we get that training right, those people will understand where the organization needs to be to thrive within the next 20 years to 30 years. Those cadets are the future of the organization.
My challenge is to make Depot relevant and to make it the place where the cadets receive a good understanding of where the organization has been. Let us face it; it has not been all good. There are areas within the organization where we can improve.
We can teach that understanding at Depot in an environment of trust between them and me as a commanding officer and Mr. Smart as a training officer. If we get that right today, we are off to a good start.
That is my personal perspective of what the challenge is as commanding officer at Depot. The 1,000 or 1,500 cadets that graduate at the end of each year need to be on the right track. They are people that some of you may need to police in communities across this country.
Senator Zimmer: How do you treat applicants applying to enter the program that have a criminal record?
Mr. Brown: They do not enter.
Senator Zimmer: Is it zero tolerance?
Mr. Brown: Yes, it is zero tolerance.
Senator Banks: In reference to a question Senator Wallin asked, I want to point out that post-secondary education is not a requirement for entering the Senate of Canada.
Senator Wallin: Thank goodness.
Senator Banks: You talked about taking on contract work to train people from other agencies, the Canada Border Services Agency in particular. You do not take the lead on that training, but support it. We were given to understand that the firearms training candidates to be armed CBSA officers would receive is RCMP arms training. This training was a great concern of ours.
Mr. Brown: That is correct.
Senator Banks: Does the RCMP train the CBSA officers?
Mr. Brown: They have the same training standards. The training fits into their particular components.
Senator Banks: By the same trainers?
Mr. Brown: By ours, in the majority.
The Chair: You are training instructors now rather than each individual.
Mr. Brown: There are two groups. The ones that came to Depot previously were trained by our instructors. As CBSA increased its training, I believe it became a train- the-trainer model. In other words, the CBSA instructors come to Depot and are taught by our instructors. They would have the exact same set of standards. Then, they go to a firearms area somewhere to train their people in a competent manner. That is how the training unfolded.
Senator Banks: Is it to your standards?
Mr. Smart: Yes, that is our understanding. It is our course of fire and the RCMP standard.
Senator Banks: Good.
You both said that nothing in the present regime at Depot has diminished the training in any way. The increased capacity has not diminished in any way the level of training. I want you to reassure us in that respect. The length of time that recruits used to spend at Depot was longer than it is now.
Mr. Brown: It used to be 26 weeks; now it is 24.
Senator Banks: Is that the only difference?
Mr. Brown: Yes.
Mr. Smart: It went through a cycle. Historically it was 27 weeks, then 26 weeks. It went as low as 22 weeks and now it is back to 24 weeks. It has been 24 weeks since 1999, if my memory serves me correctly.
Senator Banks: The difference is not significant.
Mr. Smart: Having said that, within the 24 weeks, the program evolves and changes. If there is a requirement for enhancements, if there are policy changes or any of those things, those changes are reflected in the Cadet Training Program so training is relevant and current.
Senator Banks: I have the same question on mentors. You said there is a requirement that mentors have a minimum of two years of experience. Was the minimum requirement in the past longer than that? Are you confident that someone who has graduated from Depot two years ago is able to be a mentor?
Mr. Brown: We do not use the term "mentor," to be truthful. We use "field coach." Mentor has a different connotation. A mentor can be a person who is channelling someone's career, et cetera. Coach is more specific with respect to skill sets required.
Senator Banks: The approach is, here is how you do it.
Mr. Brown: We have a minimum standard. As we said earlier, a 34-year-old person with a previous life elsewhere in another military school or wherever the case may be, who has two years experience as a police officer in the RCMP, is capable of being a field coach.
Field coaches are chosen based on a variety of issues. We need to have a set of standards somewhere. The minimum is two years.
Again, it comes back to capacity as well. In the last three or four years, we have graduated a lot of people from Depot; probably close to 5,000 people in less than four years.
No doubt the age group that has gone through Depot is younger with respect to service. I am totally confident with respect to the abilities of the field coaches to be able to coach those individuals in that particular area.
As I said earlier, my son is a member. I am confident in the training that he had, and even more confident with respect to the field coaching that he received in the field. He had about three years' service when he was a field coach himself, training others. Some people say that three years prior to that we would not give him the keys to the car. Field coaches have had a lot of training and experience under their belts in some of those areas in those two or three years.
I think the program is working well with respect to field coaching. I am hesitant to use the term "mentoring" because it does not have the same connotation within the RCMP, as we have said.
Senator Banks: When a new constable goes to Okotoks, does the constable have a one-on-one relationship with field coaches?
Mr. Brown: It is one on one. The cadets know who their field coach is before they leave Depot. They start the relationship before they leave. There was a cadet who left and went to Okotoks. He made contact with his field coach; everything from logistics to the requirements of the community to finding a house and so on. When the cadet arrives there, the field coach receives the training file from Depot. Coaches will know the competency level of the cadet with respect to communications skills, driving, shooting skills and the like.
The training is not totally tailored, because every cadet has to reach a level of competency in all areas. However, based on our training file for a cadet, if there is a specific requirement to pay particular attention in one area, the field coach will do it. That field coach will stay with that cadet all through the six-month period. However, obviously, someone may be transferred in the middle of that period or become sick and the cadet will be passed on to someone else. That situation is the exception as opposed to the rule. That is not the way the program is designed.
Senator Banks: You talked about field coaching being a part of training; six months in Depot and six months in field coaching. Does the second part of that training also fall under Depot's control and direction?
Mr. Brown: No; there is a point that Mr. Smart should speak to, because there is some connection, indirectly, with Depot, with respect to Mr. Smart's environment. I will let him answer that question.
Mr. Smart: I think Depot and the field coach program have an excellent relationship. Currently, the officer in charge of the national field coach program is Inspector Jamie Taplin. The Depot content of the Cadet Training Program is managed by a committee called the curriculum advisory committee. Jamie Taplin is a member of that committee. Whenever the field coach program meets, we ensure Depot has representation at any field coach meeting. There is a strong link between what happens at Depot and what happens post-graduation.
I will give you a small example in terms of how we communicate and relate, to ensure there is a link between what happens here and there.
For example, there is an online program called investigative communication. The program is a large, comprehensive piece of learning to build on some of the competencies in the field coach and cadet program. We have sat down together and looked at that material. Together, in partnership with the field coach program, we decided which two pieces were appropriate to add to the Cadet Training Program to enhance the existing program content, and which piece was to become a foundational piece and requirement of the graduate in his or her field coach program.
Whenever there is something like that, there is lots of communication between Jamie Taplin and his people and the people at Depot Division.
Senator Banks: You have referred, Mr. Brown — as has Senator Zimmer — to recent challenges and public concern about the RCMP and that every Canadian wants the RCMP to be our national icon, as it always has been. You have said that the police sciences and scenario training are a significant part of what goes on at Depot. I assume that, with respect to some of those criticisms and events that have taken place, new elements have been introduced into the police sciences and scenario training, without getting into the details of what they are.
You used the word "transition" today. We have heard — and sometimes used — the word "transformation" of the force in terms of the openness, transparency and trust that you talked about.
Are those changes that take place in Depot reflective of that transition and transformation?
Mr. Brown: We did not take the Cadet Training Program and put parts of the RCMP Reform Implementation Council in it. I have done much to ensure that the cadet population is aware of what is happening to the RCMP in transition. I personally meet with every graduating troop on the last week of training, one on one, where we discuss openly some of the challenges we have faced in the last little while. We talk about the Brown task force, about the RCMP Reform Implementation Council, RIC, and about the main elements that need to be introduced.
I think the effort needs to go further. We do not only talk. We have made a lot of changes at Depot in the last little while to walk the talk — if I may use that expression — where we show that we are transparent and we exemplify leadership. I can go into some of those examples, if you wish. I will not if you do not want to. I can tell you that it is not as much incorporating all those things into the Cadet Training Program as it is a way of managing the academy, if you will; the way of managing Depot as a division with respect to exemplifying leadership at the level that both Mr. Smart and I work at, with respect to being transparent and open.
Cadets have access to me on any given day at Depot, whether they come into the office or send an email. They have access to Mr. Smart and the staff. We are open to the areas that we all know, as an organization, we need to improve. Communication is an area. They see how I communicate with the staff and the cadets. I do not need to say RIC tells us we need to communicate more effectively. If I communicate more effectively, they see it as a way of doing business and come to expect that level of communication in the field when they go out.
I hope that explanation provides clarification. If you need examples of the things we have done, I can give them to you afterwards.
To add one point, I wrote down a note before we started. When you talk about the field coaching program before cadets go out into the field, there is another program we deal with. Pathways is a program to give the cadets an understanding of some of the areas they may go into in the field. I will let Mr. Smart speak to that program, as it falls under the Cadet Training Program.
Mr. Smart: We have facilitators who assume responsibility and lead this program. They have a passion about the program. There are so many different business lines and opportunities within this organization. However, short term, if you think in terms of a cadet, a young man or woman who comes to Depot, the short-term exclusive focus is success in graduation.
However, we want them to gain an understanding of what opportunities exist in the organization. We try to run three times a year — so all the cadets have an opportunity to be exposed to them — presentations from different policy centres and business lines within the organization to provide insight for the cadets to potential career opportunities that exist for them. Examples include federal policing in a general sense, human smuggling, emergency response team, police dog services and the Aboriginal policing stream.
On weekends we have presentations where someone from that business line or policy centre comes in, and the presentation is well advertised among the cadet population. If a cadet has the least bit of interest once they are past the field coach program and have developed the art, craft and skills of police work, and they are thinking of going into one of these lines, the presentation tells them the steps they need to take to develop themselves so they can shift and achieve that short-term goal in terms of career stream. We impress upon all cadets to take part in those kinds of presentations.
The Chair: So that I am clear on your testimony, Assistant Commissioner, you do not agree with David Brown's reports, then, where he expressed concern about having field coaches with only two years of experience?
Mr. Brown: Today, no: As a matter of fact, on Saturday afternoon at 10 after 5, I spoke with the corporal in charge of the field coaching program for the northwest region and asked specifically: Are we in line with respect to — and I have no concerns with respect to that.
It may very well be that a year or a year and a half ago, with the inception of the program, it was brought up that there were some growing pains with that program. I cannot answer that, to be honest. Today, however, I am confident that we are meeting the standards that are outlined within the policies of the RCMP, and that standard is that field coaches have the two years of service. I hope that all regions are applying it the same way across the board. As an organization, we take that standard seriously.
The Chair: What about David Brown's concern that field coaches had not themselves taken training in field coaching?
Mr. Brown: I cannot answer that question with respect to what the situation was then. I know that today, within the organization, we have — I do not even know if I have the numbers here.
Mr. Smart: I thought I heard a number of some 1,000 coaches have been trained within the last year. I could be wrong about the numbers. I thought I heard or read somewhere that there has been a vigorous training program in terms of that particular training course so people are positioned, prepared and ready to assume responsibility for the graduate.
The Chair: Can you get back to us with those numbers?
Mr. Smart: We certainly can, yes.
The Chair: We are looking for the numbers that have had the training, the numbers that still need to be trained and how many field coaches are available. If you have a throughput of 1,700 this year, do you have 1,700 field coaches, or are field coaches doubling up; something that might explain this situation to us. That information will be helpful.
Mr. Brown: Absolutely.
Senator Moore: I want to follow up with regard to the targets and recruits from the Aboriginal community. The target was 6.2 per cent and the actual is 1.7 cent, or in and around that number. That is the report we have. Are we talking about the same numbers here?
Mr. Brown: I do not think so. I think the actual number was 2.7 per cent last year.
Senator Moore: We were told the actual number was 1.7 per cent.
The Chair: The document is dated December 31.
Mr. Brown: The numbers that I have in front of me are for fiscal year 2007-08.
The Chair: We had those numbers as well.
Mr. Brown: There were 2.8 per cent men and 1.3 per cent women, with respect to Aboriginal cadets that were enrolled.
The Chair: Correct, but the total number of Aboriginals in the force is 7.5 per cent. The target for the year was 6.2 per cent, which was another example of targeting down.
Mr. Brown: I have cadet totals. Actually, I do have the numbers for the Aboriginal force overall.
The Chair: It comes to 7.5 per cent.
Mr. Brown: I have 7.7 per cent of all regular members are Aboriginal.
Senator Moore: Is that members or total workforce, including civilians?
Mr. Brown: Those are regular, uniformed members. For civilian members, it is 3 per cent.
Senator Moore: I am thinking about the 6-per-cent target and what we achieved. The Aboriginal sector of our population is the fastest growing, so why did we have that result?
Mr. Brown: This is my personal opinion. I do not have the total facts based on that.
Senator Moore: We are coming around to, depending on whose figures you look at, 25 per cent to 30 per cent of what we had hoped. Are there any answers?
Mr. Brown: Right off the bat, I think we need to work harder in the Aboriginal communities to allow them to see the RCMP as a career of choice. I am not sure that in all the Aboriginal communities across Canada that career is something they see as a possibility. Obviously, there is an awareness factor.
To be truthful, we need to start working with a much younger population, as opposed to waiting until someone is 17 or 18 to apply to the RCMP. We need to focus on that issue when they are a lot younger. The RCMP is focusing on many of those areas to zero in on that problem.
In many of the Aboriginal communities, my understanding is that the RCMP is not seen as a career choice.
Senator Moore: Are some of the Aboriginal youth taking part in your summer student program?
Mr. Brown: Two troops are all Aboriginal, the two troops I mentioned earlier.
Mr. Smart: That program is annual. The Aboriginal Youth Training Program occurs annually, and it is a three- week training program that takes place at Depot.
Mr. Brown: There were 58 summer students who were all Aboriginal and came to Depot.
Mr. Smart: As Mr. Brown said, there are challenges, and more work must be done in terms of attracting the youth of First Nations communities. We recently had a visit at Depot of grand chiefs from the province of Manitoba. It was a good visit because we had an opportunity to spend a day and a half with this group of people to look at the program content relative specifically to First Nations policing but also, how transferable the skills were from one community to another are. Then the grand chiefs had a chance to talk to cadets to experience different pieces of the program.
When we have those kinds of opportunities and they see first-hand what takes place, it dispels some of the myths, and enhances and opens up lines of communication. Post-visit, we received positive feedback from the grand chiefs. In fact, we had a following visit a couple of months later when one came back for the graduation of one of their relatives, and we offered him an opportunity to make an address at the graduation that night.
In terms of "K" division in the province of Alberta, we had an opportunity at two different times to host the Commanding Officer's Aboriginal Advisory Committee in order to enlighten them as to what takes place at Depot in terms of pieces of the program specific to, but everything is relevant to, the needs of all communities. Those kinds of events, such as educating First Nations leaders and First Nations people who are part of advisory committees dispels myths and allows people to see that we are on the right track.
Senator Moore: You are leading into an area I was intending to ask about. With respect to the Aboriginal cadets, I suppose it relates to any cadet, if they are stationed on a reserve or a detachment that includes a reserve, are they given any special training in consideration of the reserve, and the customs and traditions of the reserve? If so, do you bring elders in from wherever — not necessarily from that community — to give this counselling and maybe provide input that you mentioned?
Mr. Smart: I can answer that question in two parts. A foundational piece of the Cadet Training Program itself, one of the Aboriginal components, is the fact that we bring in an elder and the elder spends an hour and a half with every cadet troop. The cadets gain insight. That is not the only piece specific to Aboriginal communities.
As part of the field coach program, every graduate prepares a community profile. If the graduate is transferred to a Ukrainian or First Nations community, the graduate is tasked with finding out the uniqueness of that community and to find inroads and build bridges with the people the graduate serves.
If I were a detachment commander — I have worked in First Nations communities — I would seek out the elders and learn as much as I can about the traditions specific to that First Nation community. Those things exist within our operational units.
A graduate going to a First Nations community must prepare a community profile, and that work will be managed and directed by the commander and the field coach so the graduate is attuned to the needs of that community.
Senator Moore: They exist within the operating unit, the detachment, but is there any special section of the training program that deals with the Aboriginal considerations and cultures?
Mr. Smart: Our program?
Senator Moore: Yes, at Depot.
Mr. Smart: Absolutely; we have a module, I think it is module 10, specific to First Nations traditions and cultures. We look at traditions and cultures in terms of some of the profile issues, including the Indian Act and the residential school issues — some of the larger issues — to allow all the cadets to understand some of these things that are sensitive to First Nations people. We have a sweat lodge. The commanding officer has an Aboriginal advisory committee that is comprised of both staff. I am not sure who all is on it. The needs of our First Nations people are addressed specifically within the Cadet Training Program.
Mr. Brown: Let us not forget too that we have staff members that understand the First Nations people, and they mentor. We also have people who have worked on reserves who bring the skill sets back to the classrooms. That is where mentoring works, because it is not a coach; it is the actual staff members at Depot who have that skill set and who have worked in those areas. Then, they bring that experience into the classroom, in addition to the Cadet Training Program, which is prescribed in its approach.
Senator Moore: How many staff members at Depot are Aboriginal?
Mr. Brown: It is 8 per cent; and 8 per cent visible minorities.
Senator Moore: How many are in leading instruction positions?
Mr. Smart: Some of them are in senior, non-commissioned-officer positions, yes. In fact, one of the line officers at the division is a First Nations also, at the inspector level.
Senator Day: Gentlemen, thank you very much for being here. I am sorry we are not out visiting Depot again.
Mr. Brown: You are welcome, any time.
Senator Day: It has been several years since we visited Depot, Mr. Chair, and we seem to learn a lot more when we are on the ground and we see the cadets in class. We talked to some of the cadets at that time. I am hopeful, with the number of new members on this committee, that we will have an opportunity to do that again soon, chair.
Mr. Smart: We would truly welcome a visit by you, senator, and any members of the committee, for an in-depth examination of what goes on.
Senator Day: I very much appreciated the last time our committee had an opportunity to visit.
I have two or three points I want to clarify. The first clarification is the criminal record issue. You need not apply if you have a criminal record. What happens if the criminal record has been expunged?
Mr. Brown: As in a pardon?
Senator Day: Yes.
Mr. Brown: No problem.
Senator Day: Many people might be interested in knowing that information; young people with one indiscretion that has been forgiven.
Mr. Brown: That is right.
Senator Day: We seem to be going over already plowed ground here, but Deputy Commissioner Martin gave the committee those statistics that we have discussed with you. It may not be fair to ask you to explain why the number of women in the regular forces is 19.9 per cent, yet your target has been only 17 per cent for the last couple of years.
I thought maybe the reason is capacity at Depot. Maybe that is the reason you have cut down.
Mr. Brown: No.
Senator Day: You are trying to bring in fewer women. The only other explanation is that you have too many women in the force now, at 19 per cent. Can you explain that situation?
Mr. Brown: The target, I am sure, as the deputy probably explained, was a number that came from 2001, 2002, when we were looking at national averages.
Senator Wallin: Is that the labour force numbers?
Mr. Brown: It is the labour force numbers from 2001; that is right. Troops are comprised of 32 individuals. I can train a troop of 32 females or 16 females and 16 males. There is absolutely no difference with respect to makeup of the troops. We do not target a specific number to make a troop. The recruiting process is conducted across Canada in the exact same way. Whether it is a visible minority, female or male, the candidate goes through the process and has totally passed all the standards, if you will. In Ottawa, the troop load is put together and they come to Depot. It is certainly not a capacity issue at Depot with respect to us in any way, shape or form.
Senator Day: That is the important point we can learn from you: it is not a capacity issue.
Mr. Brown: Absolutely not.
Senator Day: With women, your target was almost 3 per cent below the actual numbers.
Mr. Brown: Yes.
Senator Day: I wanted to make the point. You may have an answer. Other than capacity, you are not in a position to help us on that question.
Mr. Brown: No; other than to say, again, it goes back to the point I spoke with Senator Kenny about as well. A career in policing does not necessarily attract a high percentage of women, although we saw an increasing number of people who want to be police officers early on. I think that increase is positive. If we can go up to 30 per cent, 40 per cent or 50 per cent, at Depot we certainly have the capacity to handle that increase.
As I said earlier, our numbers at Depot with respect to instructors is at 28 per cent, which is the percentage of regular staff members, civilian member females.
Senator Day: When you were talked earlier with one of my colleagues, you talked about the training that cadets go through. If a cadet is going into the federal side of policing, does the cadet take different training than if that cadet is going into contract or provincial-type policing?
Mr. Smart: The program is the same for all cadets.
Senator Day: In 24 weeks, you make them expert in either.
Mr. Smart: In 24 weeks, they are measured against a number of standards in the Cadet Training Program. If I am not mistaken, and I stand to be corrected on this matter, the competency profile for the general duty or contract police officer, and the competency profile for the federal constable are similar. The skills they acquire at Depot through the whole of the 24 weeks are all transferable regardless of the environment.
The goal of the program is to create someone who can work in partnership with the community, and is a critical- thinking problem solver. Those skills can then be exported to the environment, whether that environment is a rural detachment in Manitoba, an urban policing centre in the lower mainland, or a federal policing centre in Ontario. They take those skills with them and then they have a field coach program that they follow that is specific to the needs of policing in that community.
Senator Day: Where does a cadet receive training, for example, with respect to what I call a Taser, but what you might call a conducted energy device?
Mr. Smart: That training takes place at the provincial divisional level.
Senator Day: That training is after they have left Depot?
Mr. Smart: At Depot currently, in terms of the conducted energy weapon, we provide an orientation as part of the overall Cadet Training Program. All cadets receive an orientation to the tool, where it fits on the model, information to dispel the myths —
Senator Day: Do you mean where it fits in terms of firearm?
Mr. Smart: That is the incident management intervention model; where it fits in terms of a tool that a police officer would use to intervene and control a situation.
Senator Day: I do not mean to interrupt but so we understand, if a firearm is an instrument of last resort, where does the conducted energy device fit in this model?
Mr. Smart: It fits in terms of an assaultive behaviour where there is risk to the public or the police. So much depends on the situation because so many situations are fluid. That is where it would fit in terms of an intermediate device where there is risk to the public or a police officer's safety.
Senator Day: It is used before a firearm?
Mr. Smart: Yes.
Senator Day: It is used in a descending scale of intervention.
Mr. Smart: However, if you and I were police officers and attended to a situation where there was significant risk to the public, if I were trained, I might have a Taser ready to deploy and you would have a pistol in your hand. In a perfect world, we might be able to control that situation without intervening with a pistol, with a firearm, for example.
Senator Day: Who determines the guidelines for using a Taser — permit me to use that term?
Mr. Smart: The policy is set by the RCMP. I want to clarify something before I go on. At Depot, in the Cadet Training Program, we introduce the tool to dispel the myths so cadets can understand its application, so that if they are in an operational setting with a trained user and the tool is deployed in an operational setting, they know how to support deployment. Basically, that training is what we provide in the Cadet Training Program.
Senator Day: Has every RCMP officer who has — I guess all officers have the right — the training to use a Taser and might have that tool as part of the officer's arsenal, received a shock on that Taser beforehand to know what the Taser is doing?
Mr. Smart: No, I do not think so. Right now in terms of the user course — not the instructor course but the user course — exposure is voluntary, as I understand it.
Senator Day: Have either of you ever received a shock from a Taser?
Mr. Smart: I have not.
Mr. Brown: No.
Mr. Smart: My wife tells me I should not do it.
Senator Day: Absolutely. My final point I have made before. We were asked, as a Senate, to pass a law recently allowing for transportability of pension. We were told by the RCMP that this legislation will help with recruiting — I do not want to say raiding — to encourage trained police officers from other forces to come into the RCMP.
The time they take for additional training in the RCMP is pensionable time. Yet, we also know that the cadets do not have pensionable time. Was it pensionable time for you, chief superintendent, when you took the French course before you joined up, or did you take that training on your own?
Mr. Smart: No, I did not. When I joined the force on February 15, 1974, in Halifax, I was sworn in as a regular member. I spent three months studying French and then went to Depot for my basic training. From that point forward, I was on the books. In fact, I worked for the federal government before joining the force, and I rolled that pension over too, at the time.
Senator Day: Is there any movement you are aware of, from your point of view in recruitment and training, to hand these young men and women who are giving everything to their training for 24 weeks pensionable time so they can have health coverage and medical coverage during that period of time?
When we were in Depot, we talked off-line with a number of people who said that they noticed people holding back because if they hurt themselves in any of their exercises, they have no medical coverage. They will be washed out of the program and they have no pension time; they have nothing.
If they are prepared to give everything, why are we not prepared, as Canadians, to hire them on a full-time basis? If they do not complete the course successfully, then that is one of the conditions of continuing employment.
Mr. Brown: I think the issue needs to be looked at more holistically. I was at Depot teaching when we went from the Recruit Program to the Cadet Training Program, where they were not paid at all. I do not agree with not paying them, to be truthful. My son went through training at that time, so I ended up paying for some of it.
The cadets now receive $500 a week, and they are happy with the $500 a week allowance. That allowance has facilitated numerous people applying to the force who probably could not have applied when there was no payment.
By the same token, with respect to the cadet training program, the back trooping —
Mr. Smart: Can I interject? I want to explain what takes place with the cadet. Cadets and their families make a huge commitment when they come to Depot. There is no surety of success. Cadets are faced every week with a benchmark or test that they have to pass. Over the course of the training program, I think there are 24 formal benchmarks.
If they double-fail a standard, then their cadet training agreement is terminated; or if they have a medical issue or they are hurt, then their cadet training agreement is terminated.
Over the last five years, we have instituted something called contract extension re-enrolment. To put the term into layman's terms, it is like back trooping. They were not successful with troop 1, they had a performance problem, so we will put them in troop 10.
We recognize the value of this person as a good police officer but they stumbled and fell in one stream or they were injured. We initiated a process to hold on to those who do not have ethical, integrity or conduct issues. They are struggling only in a single stream and the issue is performance-related.
In terms of people who suffer an injury, it depends on the nature of the injury and the time it takes to heal whether we hold on to them or they go back home. If they go back home and recover, it does not mean they go back to square one in the program. We will look at the appropriate placement to bring them up to speed to take up where they left off.
We have conducted research on every single cadet who has been afforded that opportunity of back-trooping to ensure that the ones we hire are able to meet the needs of the Canadian public. Our research was launched to look at that point; 62 or 64 cadets over a period of four years experienced back-trooping against the controlled group who did not. Our research definitively said that if they leave this program, whether they are back-trooped or not, they possess the same competencies and perform at the same level in an operational setting.
We will continue with this kind of research on a yearly basis to ensure we can do other things in terms of accommodation for cadets that do not put the organization or the public in jeopardy. We will take those measures to look after the needs of that cadet. That is what we try to do at our level, at Depot, in terms of meeting the needs of the cadets.
Senator Day: Those measures are short of having them join the RCMP when they start.
Mr. Smart: That issue is a bigger one than we have the capacity to manage at our end, but I understand what you are saying, senator.
Senator Day: Everyone who graduates, when they are closer to middle age and start to think about retirement, will think about the fact that they do not have pensionable time for the 24 weeks that they were at Depot, compared to their colleagues who have pensionable time from another force. Do you think that discrepancy will not play on their minds?
Mr. Smart: It very well could play on their minds. I have a nephew who went through under the same circumstances. At the same time, over those 24 weeks, in terms of the Cadet Training Program assessment procedures, the program allows us to prepare a proper assessment of the competence and values of every single cadet. The program allows us, at the right time, to make a decision relative to the cadet's status. If cadets show a lack of values or integrity, we have a process to allow them to move on with their life and not move out into the field as a member of the organization. That option is a good thing also.
Senator Manning: A lot of the increased interest in RCMP training relates to community policing. When I grew up in a small rural community in Newfoundland and Labrador, if we saw the RCMP car come over the hill, we ran for the woods even if we did not do anything wrong.
Now the RCMP visits the schools when the children are at a young age. My daughter is in grade 2 and the RCMP has been to her class. It is a different method of doing things, which I think will bode well for the future.
The average age of cadets right now is 27 to 28. Has that average age changed in the past five years, or is it stable?
Mr. Smart: About five or six years ago, the average age might have been 25 and 26, or 26 and 27. The average has been in that range, as far as I know, for a number of years.
Senator Manning: Can you explain the summer student program? I know you touched on it before. Can you give us an idea of what that program entails?
Mr. Brown: There are two separate programs. One summer student program talks about supernumerary special constables. Those positions are normally allocated to a variety of different provinces or divisions. Provinces or divisions have funds to bring someone into the detachment for period of three or four months.
At one point, the positions were used for university students that were possibly pursuing a career in the RCMP. These students were given a short period of training to work alongside, never to supplement, positions to assist in a variety of functions in the summer student program.
That program exists in some areas across Canada. That is how I started in the RCMP, as a summer student in St. John's detachment, before going on language training and then to Depot.
That program is different than the Aboriginal program we started two years ago, where the program was targeted specifically to Aboriginal First Nations communities. Those two troops — and I know the last troop more than the first one because I was at Depot at that particular time as a commanding officer — were from all across Canada. They were from coast to coast to coast. The Newfoundlander was from Nain, as a matter of fact. There were individuals from the North and as far west as British Columbia.
That program is different than the summer student program, which is not targeted in its approach. From the summer student program, some people become applicants and join the RCMP, but the approach is not the same.
Senator Manning: When you look at the Cadet Training Program that is prescribed formally here, with things that have happened and concerns that have been raised across the country, how long has this particular prescribed program been in place and how often is it reviewed? Where do you see the program going from here?
Mr. Smart: Thank you for that question because I want to share some things with the committee in terms of exactly that subject.
The program has been in existence since 1994. Right now, we are teaching version seven of the cadet training program. It changes a lot. The program depends on the needs. I will give you a couple of examples.
First, a couple of years ago, we looked at a component of our program on drug training in our drug module. As we look at communities in Canada, we see a prevalence of marijuana grow operations and methamphetamine clandestine labs.
An oversight committee is responsible for the Cadet Training Program. I co-chair the committee. It includes our learning and development people, the contract policing centre and the officer in charge of recruiting. We looked at bringing forth a recommendation to redo the entire drug module to ensure that what was going on in our communities in Canada was reflected in the training program. We remade the entire module. Presently in the training program, we have a mock marijuana grow operation and a mock clandestine methamphetamine lab as part of the foundational piece in the drug program.
In terms of ethics training and bias in policing, we worked with the policy centres to enhance the program contents to reflect improvements and enhancements in both ethics and bias. The model we used to integrate these two issues into the Cadet Training Program has been an appropriate model that has been adopted throughout the learning continuum in the force. The ethics training at Depot was commented on in the Brown Task Force report, if I am not mistaken.
We are continuing to look at making program enhancements. When we brought in a new electronic file system to the RCMP, the program was changed and fully integrated. Over the course of the training program, each cadet completes 14 operational files as an integrated piece of the Cadet Training Program. The program is adult- and student-centred and problem based. It is a fully integrated program. Nothing sits in a silo. It is introduced and then revisited throughout the program. We do not permit anything to hijack the learning needs for cadets in the Cadet Training Program.
In terms of future innovation, we have spent a considerable amount of time, effort and energy in innovative research into simulator technology. We have simulators for both driving and use of force through firearms. The simulators enhance opportunities to make learning richer and deeper for cadets in both driving and firearms. Putting those two things together create what we call high-arousal scenario training. We can elevate the anxiety and stress of an individual cadet in a risky environment and put the cadet in a situation where he or she must make a proper assessment of the situation. The cadet executes an action and articulates or justifies the action in a risk-free environment. That training is in addition to what I mentioned earlier about the 120 to 125 experiential or scenario-based learning opportunities that exist in the Cadet Training Program.
When we launched this simulator research, we did not launch it alone. We partnered with the Canadian Police Research Centre and also with representation from the domestic police forces in Canada such as Edmonton, Calgary, Winnipeg, Halifax and the Ontario Police College. Internationally, we also partnered with the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center in Glynco, Georgia.
Over the last couple of years, we have maintained contact with those departments. We looked at skill acquisition and retention on firearms and driving. We kept the departments apprised of the results of our research to date and our plans for research into the future.
Recently, we sent two of our people to the Georgia Federal Law Enforcement Training Center to present finding of a study we conducted on firearms training. The center has 60,000 police candidates that go through their academy in the course of a year. We conducted a study using the Prism Firearms Training Simulator, which is a trademark name. It is a use-of-force firearms simulator. Our pistol has a magazine loaded with casings that have 3,600 pounds per square inch of air. When someone pulls the trigger, it hits the casing and explodes. The action cycles and they experience recoil.
We have created a virtual range. Our entire RCMP course of fire could be set up in this room if the lighting was dimmer. When someone goes to a real range at the RCMP training academy in Depot or to our simulator range, that person sees exactly the same thing. We brought in 21 students from the University of Regina. We did not want to use cadets at this stage because we did not want to tamper with skill acquisition and retention on firearms or jeopardize the likelihood that they would succeed in the program.
These university students went through the same course of fire that an RCMP cadet goes through. They took the exact same number of hours although the hours were richer. If you have ever shot a gun, you know you have to put up a target. In a simulator range, we do not have to put up targets; we simply press a button and a new target is there. The only time they shot a bullet is when they tested on the same benchmarks that cadets test on. There were three formal benchmarks on which they were tested.
At the end of the day, 19 of 21 students transferred the learning from the simulator range to the live fire range and met the RCMP course of fire. That result is significant and offers us significant potentials. However, we have to conduct more research and share that research with our national partners.
The Federal Law Enforcement Training Centre in Georgia is extremely interested because they, too, are looking at the same thing now. We have next steps to pursue this research. It could have a potentially significant benefit to making learning and training in the program itself much richer and deeper for individual cadets. We believe it has potential to show an application at the provincial level in terms of in-service or post-graduation training for other members of the force.
Mr. Brown: To add to that point, Senator Manning asked about our Cadet Training Program being revisited and revamped over time. Scrutiny of the program takes place not only within the RCMP. We have constant scrutiny by outside agencies and other federal departments, subject to incidences that arise. For example, shootings in the RCMP may raise the question of training and agencies come in. We have opened up the doors of Depot in our Cadet Training Program to the outside on numerous occasions to look at our program to see if it meets the standards.
We have had a tremendous amount of interest. Most recent interest was from the Los Angeles Police Department. They came to Depot to look at our program and work with us. They are putting a program into their training that is almost identical to what we are doing to meet some of their needs.
I do not want the committee to think that the Cadet Training Program has been looked at only from within the RCMP. I do not want to use the word "oversight" because I do not want to go down that road. We have absolutely no problem with the issue of having outside government departments or other agencies look at our program to validate it. That interest becomes a true validation of our program and where it sits within the general aspect of overall training within the organization. I do not want that point to be lost.
Senator Nolin: I will pass because the answer may become long. The question deals with interpretation of the law. I know that policemen refrain from interpreting the law, but in the area of Aboriginal rights, they must interpret it. I will not ask my question.
The Chair: Thank you both for your appearance here today. It has been instructive for the committee. It is no substitute for visiting Depot; that is an experience in itself. You have whetted the appetite of members to return to Depot.
On behalf of the committee, I thank you for the information you have provided us. It has been helpful, and we are grateful for that.
If members of the public have any questions or comments, visit our website at www.sen-sec.ca. We post witness testimony, committee reports and confirmed hearing schedules. Otherwise, members of the public can contact the clerk of the committee by calling 1-800-267-7362 for further information or assistance in contacting members of the committee.
You have the floor, Senator Moore.
Senator Moore: Chair, I move that the committee proceed in camera to consider the draft report and that all committee advisers and senators' staff be permitted to remain during this in-camera proceeding with any electronic communication devices left in the off position, and that one copy of the transcript of this in-camera proceeding be kept in the clerk's office for consultation by committee members and that it be destroyed at the end of this parliamentary session.
The Chair: Comments?
Senator Banks: Question.
The Chair: Those in favour? Carried.
(The committee continued in camera.)