Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
National Security and Defence
Issue 11 - Minutes of Proceedings
OTTAWA, Monday, December 7, 2009
(23)
[English]
The Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence met this day at 4:05 p.m., in room 705, Victoria Building, the chair, the Honourable Colin Kenny, presiding.
Members of the committee present: The Honourable Senators Banks, Day, Kenny, Lang, Manning, Mitchell, Moore, Tkachuk, Wallin and Zimmer (10).
In attendance: Holly Porteous and Martin Auger, Analysts, Parliamentary Information and Research Service, Library of Parliament; Dan Turner, writer; and Major-General (ret) Keith McDonald, Senior Military Advisor.
Also in attendance: The official reporters of the Senate.
Pursuant to the order of reference adopted by the Senate on Thursday, March 5, 2009, the committee continued its study on the national security policy of Canada. (For complete text of the order of reference, see proceedings of the committee, Issue No. 2)(RCMP in transition)
The chair called the meeting to order.
The Honourable Senator Banks moved:
That pursuant to rule 92 (2)(f), the committee proceed in camera to consider a draft report;
That senators' staff be permitted to remain in the room during the in camera portion of the meeting;
That everyone turn off all electronic devices, with the exception of the committee clerk; and
That the committee allow the transcription of the in camera portions of today's meeting, that one copy be kept in the office of the clerk of the committee for consultation by committee members and that the transcript be destroyed by the clerk at the end of this parliamentary session.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
At 4:14 p.m., pursuant to rule 92 (2)(f), the committee proceeded in camera to consider a draft report.
It was agreed that the committee consider each chapter of the draft report by asking committee members to provide their comments page by page.
It was agreed that the following material be filed as an exhibit with the clerk of the committee:
Response from Paul E. Kennedy, Chair, Commission for Public Complaints
Against the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, to questions taken on notice at the
May 11, 2009 meeting.
(Exhibit 5900-2.40/N2-SS-1-7, 11, ``9'')
Response from The Honourable Peter Van Loan, Minister of Public Safety, to
questions taken on notice at the October 19, 2009 meeting.
(Exhibit 5900-2.40/N2-SS-1-7, 11, ``10'')
It was agreed that the contents of footnote 115, located on page 78 of the version of the report dated December 7, 2009, be moved to page 3, line 25.
It was moved:
That the committee first consider chapter 6 of the draft report in its entirety before going back to re-consider the introduction.
After debate, the question being put on the motion, it was negatived on the following vote:
YEAS
The Honourable Senators
Lang, Manning, Tkachuk and Wallin — 4
NAYS
The Honourable Senators
Banks, Day, Moore and Zimmer — 4
ABSTENTIONS
The Honourable Senators
Kenny — 1
The committee continued its consideration of the draft report.
It was moved:
That page 1 of the draft report be adopted in principle and that the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be authorized to determine whether to use the word ``recommendation'' or not.
After debate, the question being put on the motion, it was adopted, on division.
The committee continued its consideration of the draft report.
It was agreed that the words ``what'' and ``is'' be deleted from page 1, line 7.
It was moved that page 1 be amended by deleting lines 10-13.
After debate, the question being put on the motion, it was negatived, on division.
It was moved that page 1 of the draft report be adopted, as amended.
After debate, the question being put on the motion, it was adopted on the following vote:
YEAS
The Honourable Senators
Banks, Day, Kenny, Moore and Zimmer — 5
NAYS
The Honourable Senators
Lang, Manning, Tkachuk and Wallin — 4
ABSTENTIONS
The Honourable Senators
Nil
At 5:16 p.m., the Honourable Senator Mitchell replaced the Honourable Senator Zimmer as a member of the committee.
It was moved:
That the committee read and discuss the draft report in its entirety today and that the committee wait to consider the adoption of the report until a final draft is prepared that incorporates today's discussions and proposed changes, including any discussion on the need for and the substance of any observations and/or recommendations that might be agreed to therein.
After debate, the question being put on the motion, it was negatived on the following vote:
YEAS
The Honourable Senators
Lang, Manning, Tkachuk and Wallin — 4
NAYS
The Honourable Senators
Banks, Day, Kenny, Mitchell and Moore — 5
ABSTENTIONS
The Honourable Senators
Nil
It was moved:
That the committee do now adopt the Introduction, chapter 1, chapter 2 and chapter 3 of the draft report, subject to any minor editorial changes agreed to by the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure.
A point of order was raised on the grounds that the motion contravenes rule 63 (1) and (2).
Debate arose thereon.
CHAIR'S RULING:
Pursuant to the Speaker's Ruling on September 16, 2009, the chair ruled that because there is a separate, very specific, provision in rule 96 (1), which states that decisions in committee are taken by majority vote, that rule 63 (1) does not apply to committees. Therefore, the committee can decide, by majority vote, to change the process by which it wishes to consider a draft report.
The chair's ruling was appealed.
The question being put on whether the chair's ruling shall be sustained, it was adopted, on division.
It was moved that the committee do now adjourn.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
At 6:05 p.m, the committee adjourned to the call of the chair.
ATTEST:
OTTAWA, Monday, December 14, 2009
(24)
[English]
The Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence met this day at 4:12 p.m., in room 705, Victoria Building, the chair, the Honourable Colin Kenny, presiding.
Members of the committee present: The Honourable Senators Banks, Dallaire, Kenny, Manning, Meighen, Mitchell, Moore, Tkachuk, Wallin and Zimmer (10).
Other senators present: The Honourable Senators Lang and Stollery (2).
In attendance: Holly Porteous, Analyst, Parliamentary Information and Research Service, Library of Parliament; Dan Turner, writer; and Major-General ret'd Keith McDonald, Senior Military Advisor.
Also in attendance: The official reporters of the Senate.
Pursuant to the order of reference adopted by the Senate on Thursday, March 5, 2009, the committee continued its study on the national security policy of Canada. (For complete text of the order of reference, see proceedings of the committee, Issue No. 2) (RCMP in transition)
The chair called the meeting to order.
The Honourable Senator Banks moved:
That, subject to the provisions of this present motion, the committee meet today for a total of three hours, which it has been permitted to do, with additional time added in order to account for any time taken because of suspensions of the committee for votes in the Senate or for caucus meetings;
That the committee consider today the draft report on the RCMP in Transition, using the version dated December 7, 2009;
That, no later than thirty minutes before the expiration of the total time set for the committee's meeting, the chair shall put successively all questions necessary for final disposition of the report, and all such motions put after that time shall be dealt with without further debate or amendment; and
That, notwithstanding the limit on the total time set forth in this meeting, if the committee has not adopted all motions necessary for final disposition of the report by the expiration of the total time set for this meeting, the committee shall continue to meet for the purpose of putting all questions necessary for the final disposition of the report, after which, if the committee has gone beyond the total time set for this meeting, a motion to adjourn the committee shall be deemed moved and adopted.
Debate arose thereon.
The Honourable Senator Tkachuk raised a point of order on the grounds that the committee is bound to follow the motion adopted at the meeting held on December 7, 2009 stating that the committee consider each chapter of the draft report by asking committee members to provide their comments page by page.
Debate arose thereon.
CHAIR'S RULING:
The chair ruled that there is no point of order since the question had not yet been put on the motion moved today by the Honourable Senator Banks. Accordingly, the chair advised the committee that the motion adopted on December 7, 2009 stands as the one the committee is bound to follow, until such time as the motion moved today is adopted.
After debate, the question being put on the motion, it was adopted on the following vote:
YEAS
The Honourable Senators
Banks, Dallaire, Kenny, Mitchell and Moore — 5
NAYS
The Honourable Senators
Manning, Meighen, Tkachuk and Wallin — 4
ABSTENTIONS
The Honourable Senators
Nil
The Honourable Senator Banks moved:
That the proposed amendments indicated in the document entitled ``Proposed Amendments to December 7 Draft Report'' be adopted and integrated into the draft text as indicated in that document;
That the draft report on the RCMP in Transition, version dated December 7, 2009, as amended, be adopted;
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be authorized to approve minor changes to (i) the draft dated December 7, 2009, as amended by the committee, that are required to integrate the agreed-upon amendments into the report, without otherwise substantively affecting the report's contents, and (ii) such minor typographical and grammatical corrections as are deemed necessary, again without substantively affecting the report's contents or conclusions; and
That the chair table the report in the Senate at the earliest convenient opportunity.
Debate arose thereon.
The Honourable Senator Wallin moved that the motion be amended.
Debate arose thereon.
The Honourable Senator Manning moved:
That the meeting do now adjourn.
The question being put on the motion to adjourn, it was negatived on the following vote:
YEAS
The Honourable Senators
Manning, Meighen, Tkachuk and Wallin — 4
NAYS
The Honourable Senators
Banks, Dallaire, Kenny, Mitchell and Moore — 5
ABSTENTIONS
The Honourable Senators
Nil
The question being put on the Honourable Senator Wallin's motion in amendment, it was negatived on the following vote:
YEAS
The Honourable Senators
Manning, Meighen, Tkachuk and Wallin — 4
NAYS
The Honourable Senators
Banks, Kenny, Mitchell and Moore — 4
ABSTENTIONS
The Honourable Senators
Dallaire — 1
It was agreed, with leave, that the Honourable Senator Banks withdraw his motion to adopt the draft report.
The Honourable Senator Banks moved:
That the draft report on the RCMP in Transition, version dated December 7, 2009 be adopted, as amended;
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be authorized to approve minor changes to the draft of December 7, 2009, as amended, without modifying the substance of the report, along with such minor typographical and grammatical changes that might be required without changing the substance of the report; and
That the chair table this report in the Senate at the earliest opportunity.
Debate arose thereon.
The Honourable Senator Banks raised a point of order on the fact that it being thirty minutes before the adjournment of the meeting, the chair must put successively all questions necessary for the final disposition of the report, and all such motions put after that time shall be dealt with without further debate or amendment.
Debate arose thereon.
CHAIR'S RULING:
The chair ruled that pursuant to the motion adopted earlier today, the chair must put successively all questions necessary for the final disposition of the report, and all such motions put after that time shall be dealt with without further debate or amendment.
The chair's ruling was appealed.
After debate, the Honourable Senator Tkachuk moved:
That the meeting do now adjourn.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted on the following vote:
YEAS
The Honourable Senators
Dallaire, Manning, Meighen, Moore, Tkachuk and Wallin — 6
NAYS
The Honourable Senators
Banks, Kenny and Mitchell — 3
ABSTENTIONS
The Honourable Senators
Nil
At 7:07 p.m, the committee adjourned to the call of the chair.
ATTEST:
Shaila Anwar
Clerk of the Committee