Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Energy, the Environment and Natural Resources
Issue 1 - Evidence - February 26, 2009
OTTAWA, Thursday, February 26, 2009
The Standing Senate Committee on Energy, the Environment and Natural Resources met this day at 8:32 a.m., pursuant to rule 88 of the Rules of the Senate, to organize the activities of the committee.
[English]
Lynn Gordon, Clerk of the Committee: Honourable senators, welcome to the Standing Senate Committee on Energy, the Environment and Natural Resources. As clerk of your committee, it is my duty to preside over the election of the chair. I am prepared to receive nominations to that effect.
Senator St. Germain: I put forward a nomination in the name of the Honourable Senator Angus.
Ms. Gordon: Are there any other nominations? Seeing none, I will put the question. It is moved by the Honourable Senator St. Germain that the Honourable Senator Angus do take the chair of this committee. Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Ms. Gordon: I declare the motion carried and invite Senator Angus to take the chair.
Senator W. David Angus (Chair) in the chair.
The Chair: Good morning.
[Translation]
The Chair: Thank you very much for the vote of confidence.
[English]
I look forward to working with all of you. Some of you I have worked with in the past. I think in this Second Session of the Fortieth Parliament we have a wonderful committee put together by the Selection Committee. From everything I hear, the subject matter described in our general mandate seems to be the flavour of the month. We are at the leading edge of public policy-making in an area affecting not only day-to-day politics in the country but the very future of our planet on which we live. Therefore, I think we have a profound duty to our fellow citizens and all the people we represent. It should be a great experience.
I am grateful to you for electing me as your chair. I promise to exercise the functions to the best of my ability in a fair and balanced manner, which I think is characteristic of how the Senate should function. Knowing all of you as I do, I am sure we will not have trouble doing that.
I would like to say at the outset that we have been asked by the Senate administration if we could have this organizational meeting televised internally for education and administrative purposes. We are on air now. The first thing I would like to do is to state that we are being broadcast on closed circuit television so that the committee's directorate may obtain footage in order to put together a compilation CD for training and educational purposes. Only one other committee has been asked to do that, the Standing Senate Committee on Banking, Trade and Commerce, which has had its formative meeting.
As a result of this, it will be helpful, when we reach each agenda items and seek a mover, we will move and read the motions in their entirety. It may seem tedious, but it is part of the process we have been asked to do.
There are no pages present today. They are participating in a swearing-in ceremony. We are blessed to have as our clerk Ms. Lynn Gordon. She has been good in allowing me to understand the comings and goings of the committee. The team we have from the communications department of the Library of Parliament includes Mr. Marc Leblanc, Mr. Sam Banks and Mr. Jacques Bélanger.
I would also like to introduce all of the members of the committee, if I may briefly. We have Senator Grant Mitchell from Alberta. Senator Lorna Milne is from Ontario. We have worked together on this committee previously and I am looking forward to continuing. Senator Mira Spivak is from Winnipeg, Manitoba; she is an outspoken and articulate expert in this field. We will always look to you for history and corporate memory.
Senator Spivak: I feel 90 years old.
The Chair: You are only one year older than I. Senator Robert Peterson is from Saskatchewan. Senator Gerry St. Germain is from British Columbia. We have a new senator, the immediate past Minister of Energy and Natural Resources in British Columbia, Senator Richard Neufeld. We are delighted to have you here not only in the Senate to share your wisdom with us, but on this committee. I feel blessed to have you as a member. My predecessor as chair is Senator Tommy Banks, the orchestrator of all good things from Alberta. I am hoping to fill those relatively large shoes in an adequate fashion. I am hoping to look to you for tips and wise counsel from time to time. Another distinguished senator I see in this building often, Senator Pana Merchant from Saskatchewan. I do not think we have worked together before, other than taking the bus sometimes. I look forward to working with you. Another distinguished senator with knowledge from the field is from the Yukon, Senator Daniel Lang. We have a full complement present today with the exceptions of Senator Nick Sibbeston from the Northwest Territories and Senator Willie Adams from Nunavut.
I am a simple lawyer from Montreal reaching the end of a 48-year career at the same firm. They have shown me the door with a date of July 21 on it. I will have all my time available to deliberate on these matters.
Senator Milne: You will have to take a day job.
The Chair: I think this will be it and I look forward to it. I think these pro bono type lawyers are the best.
Without further ado we are at item number 2. I will entertain a motion to elect a deputy chair.
Senator Banks: I move that Senator Grant Mitchell be elected deputy chair.
The Chair: Moved by Senator Banks that Senator Mitchell is the deputy chair. I declare nominations to be closed and Senator Mitchell to be elected.
I wonder if you would care to join me up here, Senator Mitchell. I look forward to working with you. Congratulations. I know of your expertise and interest in this important area.
[Translation]
Senator Mitchell: Like my colleague Senator Angus, I, too, would like to thank you for placing your trust in me. I am delighted to have the opportunity to work with all of you.
[English]
It is always very gratifying to win an election. I want to thank the electorate very much. In fact, to win one unanimously —
Senator Spivak: It was a landslide.
Senator Mitchell: Yes, it was a landslide for the first time in my life. I think that is five in a row.
The Chair: It is all the more significant you being a Liberal from Alberta and me being a Tory from Quebec.
Senator Mitchell: It is clearly an indication of non-partisan cooperation. I believe this is an extremely important committee. I am very grateful, being from Alberta, which, in some senses, is the eye of the climate change storm. Each of us here sees that balance and tension. I look forward to the great experience we will have on this committee.
The Chair: I echo your comments about working together in a non-partisan fashion.
Item 3 is the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure, otherwise known as the steering committee. We need to have a motion:
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be composed of the chair, the deputy chair, and one other member of the committee, to be designated after the usual consultation; and
That the subcommittee be empowered to make decisions on behalf of the committee with respect to its agenda, to invite witnesses, and to schedule hearings.
It is moved by Senator Neufeld. Do these motions need to be seconded?
Senator Milne: Not in committee.
The Chair: Are all in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Motion carried unanimously.
Next is item 4, a motion to print the committee's proceedings. I am seeking a motion:
That the committee print its proceedings; and
That the chair be authorized to set the number to meet demand.
It is moved by Senator Lang. Are all in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: It is carried unanimously.
Item 5 is a motion to hold meetings and print evidence when quorum is not present:
That, pursuant to rule 89, the chair be authorized to hold meetings, to receive and authorize the printing of evidence when a quorum is not present, provided that a member of the committee from both the opposition and the government be present.
This reflects an amendment and an improvement recently made to rule 89, which has to do with proceeding without quorum so long as there is representation of both major parties.
It is so moved by Senator Peterson. Are all in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: It is carried unanimously.
Item 6 is the financial report, which I understand is the report from the previous session. It is in front of all senators. If we pass this motion, it would be my intention to deal with it today in the chamber.
Before we proceed with this motion, I would like to welcome another colleague, Senator McCoy, from Alberta, who has told me she will be sitting with us regularly. We are delighted to have you with us.
Senator McCoy: Thank you.
The Chair: The motion would be that the committee adopt the draft first report prepared in accordance with rule 104. Are all in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: It is carried unanimously.
The next item pertains to research staff. I am seeking a motion:
That the committee ask the Library of Parliament to assign analysts to the committee;
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be authorized to retain the services of such experts as may be required by the work of the committee; and
That the chair, on behalf of the committee, direct the research staff in the preparation of studies, analyses, summaries, and draft reports.
It is moved by Senator Banks. Are all in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: The motion is carried unanimously.
Item 8 is the authority to commit funds and certify accounts:
That, pursuant to section 7, chapter 3:06 of the Senate Administrative Rules, authority to commit funds be conferred individually on the chair, the deputy chair, and the clerk of the committee;
That, pursuant to section 8, chapter 3:06 of the Senate Administrative Rules, authority for certifying accounts payable by the committee be conferred individually on the chair, the deputy chair, and the clerk of the committee; and
That, notwithstanding the foregoing, in cases related to consultants and personnel services, the authority to commit funds and certify accounts be conferred jointly on the chair and deputy chair.
May I have a motion to that effect? Senator Merchant moves. Are all in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: It is carried unanimously.
Travel is the next item. We seek a motion:
That the committee empower the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure to designate, as required, one or more members of the committee and/or such staff as may be necessary to travel on assignment on behalf of the committee.
Senator Banks moves. Are all in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: It is carried unanimously.
Item 10 is the designation of members travelling on committee business. Again, this is again a fairly long one.
A motion is required:
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be authorized to:
1) determine whether any member of the committee is on "official business" for the purposes of paragraph 8(3)(a) of the Senators Attendance Policy, published in the Journals of the Senate on Wednesday, June 3, 1998; and
2) to consider any member of the committee to be on "official business" if that member is: (a) attending an event or meeting related to the work of the committee; or (b) making a presentation related to the work of the committee; and
That the subcommittee report at the earliest opportunity any decisions taken with respect to the designation of members of the committee travelling on committee business.
It is moved by Senator Lang. This is an important motion for all of us. I have discussed it with our clerk, and she will cooperate with us and monitor closely for attendance purposes in circumstances when we will be on official business. Are all in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: The motion is carried unanimously.
Item 11 is the travelling and living expenses of witnesses. We are seeking a motion:
That, pursuant to the Senate guidelines for witness expenses, the committee may reimburse reasonable travelling and living expenses for one witness from any one organization and payment will take place upon application, but that the chair be authorized to approve expenses for a second witness should there be exceptional circumstances.
I think you understand that one to say that, if the Canadian Bar Association is coming and there are two elements of the issue we are discussing, they might have an expert to speak to each. That would be an exception to the motion.
Senator Neufeld moves. Are all in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: It is carried unanimously.
Item 12 is the electronic media coverage of public meetings. We are seeking a motion that the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be empowered to allow coverage by electronic media of the committee's public proceedings with the least possible disruption of its hearings, at its discretion.
It is moved by Senator Milne. Are all in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: It is carried unanimously. The next item is related to the time slot for regular meetings. It is as per the directive we have received. Some of you have already talked to me about the possibility of changing these times. I am finding it is nigh impossible to do so.
Senator Banks, you might enlighten us: Regarding the Thursday morning meeting of eight o'clock, at times that meeting has been moved to 8:30 when it did not appear we would need the full two hours. Is that so?
Senator Banks: Yes, and depending on the witnesses, the meetings have gone past ten o'clock. I think we need to understand there is a certain flexibility here. I believe the meeting that ordinarily follows that Thursday morning meeting begins at 10:45.
The Chair: It is 10:30 now in other buildings.
Senator Milne: It is only in another building if we happen to be in this room. Our regular room is 257 East Block.
The Chair: What about the next meeting, though? For example, I have a meeting in another building.
Senator Milne: Yes. However, the normally designated meeting room for this committee when we are not televised is that room in the East Block.
Senator St. Germain: In other words, if the proceedings are being televised, is it correct that we will be in this building?
The Chair: One of three venues. Is it three or four?
Senator Milne: I understand the room in the East Block is now wired.
The Chair: Television friendly.
Senator Milne: We may be televised there as well.
The Chair: It can vary, Senator St. Germain. The chair has a slight preference and I believe the vice chair has as well for this particular room. The clerk is aware of that preference.
Senator Banks: The other thing we want to consider and that we should know is that the Rules of the Senate provide that the committee meets on Tuesdays at five o'clock or when the Senate rises. On Tuesday evenings, we have often pushed way beyond the seven o'clock closure. I do not think there is a committee that follows this one. As you recall, we may not sit when the Senate is sitting. If the Senate sitting continues until seven o'clock, we have often had witnesses waiting for us for two hours and we begin the meeting at seven o'clock. We need to understand that sometimes on Tuesday evenings, there is flexibility on when we start.
The Chair: As to specific times.
Senator Milne: I would move, then, that the time slot for our regular meetings be Tuesdays at five o'clock or when the Senate rises until 7 p.m. and also on Thursdays as it says here. We may as well have it in the motion.
The Chair: That makes sense. We will have the minutes reflect that.
Senator Mitchell: There is a nuance. You do not want to specify until 7 p.m. if we start later.
Senator Milne: That is right.
The Chair: It is a two-hour time slot.
Senator St. Germain: I think this is established by the leadership of the Senate, that is, the Leader of the Opposition and the Leader of the Government. I think a motion could be restrictive.
The Chair: Are you happy to withdraw? I think we have a general understanding.
Senator Milne: Why not take out the seven o'clock, then?
The Chair: It is a two-hour slot.
Senator Milne: Yes, if we can only convene later than five o'clock, we still have two hours.
Senator Neufeld: We have no motion. This is only information for us. We should be on tap at 5 p.m. on Tuesdays. If there are extraordinary circumstances, as Senator Banks indicated, we have to deal with that. Who knows, we may not be able to come in here after 7 p.m. sometimes. I think this is only for information. It confuses the whole issue if you start making motions and will complicate things.
The Chair: Thank you very much.
Senator Milne: We should also have for information where the meetings will be held regularly.
The Chair: Our regular room is room 257 in the East Block, and we have been advised of that. I should say for the new senators, there is a hot meal provided on Tuesday evenings. I have never really understood whether that meal is for the senators on the committee and the members of our staff or whether it is for the witnesses, because sometimes those waiting witnesses devour what is put out.
I would entertain a motion that we go in camera at this point so that we can discuss other business. We have covered the matters that the Senate administrators need for educational purposes.
Welcome Senator Sibbeston, who is now here, from the Northwest Territories. You just got in under the wire.
Let it be known for those watching the video that we will be discussing future business and matters to the committee that we do not need to put on tape.
Senator Milne: Should we be doing this first report in open session before going into camera?
The Chair: Rule 104? Yes, I apologize. I did not see it there.
Senator Banks: You might also want to consider the draft order of reference in open meeting, or you may want to do it after.
The Chair: I think we agreed.
Ms. Gordon: It is your choice.
The Chair: Let us do it in public then. There will be two items, item 6 on the list of matters that we went through that the committee adopt the first report prepared in accordance with rule 104. We have adopted it and now we need —
Senator Milne: We need a motion to report it to the Senate.
The Chair: This afternoon?
Senator Milne: Yes.
The Chair: May I have such a motion?
Senator Milne: I so move however you want to word it, madam clerk.
The Chair: May I have a motion that we present the report this afternoon?
Senator Banks: I move the adoption of the draft order of reference and that you present that to the Senate.
The Chair: All in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Both motions.
Senator St. Germain: Do you want it read into the record?
Senator Banks: We probably should.
The Chair: Does everyone have that?
The Clerk: Yes.
Senator Lang: As a new member, I am wondering about the order of reference. Is this the same order of reference that was before the previous committee? Are there any changes to the wording of this reference?
The Chair: It has been developed and evolved over time to be generic enough to avoid having to go back again and again for specific things. I went over it carefully. However, if anyone has any suggestions, please say them now.
Do you suggest I read it into the record, Senator St. Germain?
Senator St. Germain: I think it should be read into the record because it is good information and I think it is well done. I think it would be an advantage.
The Chair: Senator Banks, your motion was that our general terms for the order of reference be:
That the Standing Senate Committee on Energy, the Environment and Natural Resources be authorized to examine and report on emerging issues related to its mandate:
(a) The current state and future direction of production, distribution, consumption, trade, security and sustainability of Canada's energy resources;
(b) Environmental challenges facing Canada including responses to global climate change, air pollution, biodiversity and ecological integrity;
(c) Sustainable development and management of renewable and non-renewable natural resources including, but not limited to, water, minerals, soils, flora and fauna;
(d) Canada's international treaty obligations affecting energy, the environment and natural resources and their influence on Canada's economic and social development;
That the papers and evidence received and taken and work accomplished by this committee on this subject since the beginning of the Second Session of the Thirty-Ninth Parliament be referred to the committee; and
That the committee submit its final report no later than June 30, 2010 — we put that date in. The clerk's advice was that was sufficiently broad — and
That the committee retain all powers necessary to publicize its findings until 180 days after the tabling of the final report.
Are we all comfortable? All in favour? I believe we have already passed it. Thank you very much. Is it okay to go into camera now?
Senator Milne: Your choice.
The Chair: I think it makes sense to have a more wide-ranging discussion.
Senator Milne: Did we have a vote on rule 104?
The Chair: It included both.
Senator Banks: I think the normal procedure is that you would ask the Senate to confirm or to direct this committee in respect of this order of reference. Am I right?
The Chair: Yes, it must be done.
Senator Banks: Do you need a motion to do that?
The Chair: That is what your motion was.
Senator Banks: It went further than adopting this. It was to empower you to —
The Chair: Yes, to go to the Senate and ask for this.
(The committee continued in camera.)