Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
National Finance
Issue 17 - Evidence - Meeting of November 25, 2009
OTTAWA, Wednesday, November 25, 2009
The Standing Senate Committee on National Finance met this day at 6:32 p.m. to examine the expenditures set out in the Supplementary Estimates (B) for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2010.
Senator Joseph A. Day (Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Chair: I call this meeting of the Standing Senate Committee on National Finance to order. We are engaged in the study of Supplementary Estimates (B) for the fiscal year 2009-10.
This evening we will be hearing from officials from Indian and Northern Affairs Canada, INAC. It has been a while since we have had officials from that department before this committee. We are pleased to welcome Mr. Jim Quinn, Chief Financial Officer; Mr. Peter Traversy, Director General, Planning and Resource Management; and Mr. Andrew Francis, Director, Resource Management and Financial Advisory Services, Planning and Resource Management.
Gentlemen, thank you very much for being here. As you know, our focus is primarily on the Supplementary Estimates (B), but we also use this opportunity to get to know generally about your department. Mr. Quinn, I will call on you to say a few introductory remarks and then we will go into a discussion and questions and answers.
Jim Quinn, Chief Financial Officer, Indian and Northern Affairs Canada: Thank you, Mr. Chair, for inviting us here this evening. I am pleased to have this opportunity to appear before the committee to discuss the 2009-10 Supplementary Estimates (B) for Indian and Northern Affairs Canada, which were tabled on Thursday, November 4, 2009. The estimates give the department the resources necessary to help improve the quality of life for Aboriginal peoples and northerners.
The 2009-10 Main Estimates for the department were $6.9 billion. This spring, the Supplementary Estimates (A) raised the supply in the department to $7.3 billion, and these supplementary estimates before you this evening will raise the total estimates for INAC to $7.6 billion.
These supplementary estimates include a net increase to appropriations of $249.7 million. The supplementary estimates contain both increases and decreases to departmental appropriations and include amounts impacting a number of initiatives. The increase of $284.1 million includes items such as $49.8 million for the assessment, management and remediation of federal contaminated sites; of that amount, $21.5 million is tied to Canada's Economic Action Plan.
Contaminated sites are being addressed on a priority basis, with all sites being managed in accordance with federal guidelines and regulations. At all sites, preventing impacts to human health and the environment are key considerations.
Since the inception of the Federal Contaminated Sites Action Plan in 2005, the Northern Contaminated Sites Program continues to progress toward its goal of assessing and remediating sites. To date, the program has remediated eight sites with the use of the program funding, reducing the environmental liability associated to these sites by over $80 million.
Further increases to the Supplementary Estimates (B) include $30.3 million for initiatives under the Federal Framework for Aboriginal Economic Development from Budget 2008; $21.5 million to address out-of-court settlements; $11.4 million for the implementation of comprehensive land claim agreements in the three territories; $10.2 million for the First Nations Infrastructure Fund and First Nations education facilities; and $5 million for the Mackenzie Gas Project.
Further, the department is requesting $149 million of re-profiling from the previous fiscal year of 2008-09. These are monies that were included in estimates in the last fiscal year that were for specific initiatives where the funds were not completely spent.
The major items under that category are $77.6 million in funding for the Peguis Surrender specific claim settlement — funding had been brought into the department last year, based on the expected time that the payment would be made; $41.3 million for the residential schools settlement allotment for payment of settlements awarded under the adjudicated resolution process; and an increase of $29.1 million for the First Nations Infrastructure Fund, as projects were delayed in 2009-10. In addition, there is an additional $10.2 million from Building Canada's planned gas tax fund, which is to be used exclusively for school renovation and construction.
Reductions to the appropriations in the department total $34.5 million. The majority relate to an announcement that was made in Canada's Economic Action Plan, which announced the new northern agency. INAC is transferring $25.9 million to the new Canadian Northern Economic Development Agency, or CanNor, as the agency is now known. You will see two new votes under the ministry for this agency, vote 37 for operating expenditures and vote 39 for contributions. I also want to mention that Budget 2009 provided $25 million for the agency, which brings the total budget for that agency to approximately $50 million.
Other transfers include funds that are being sent to Natural Resources Canada to support the operations of the First Nations Forestry Program, in the amount of $2.9 million; $2 million for the new Arctic Research Infrastructure Fund; and $2.4 million to various government departments for work related to the International Polar Year.
Within the Supplementary Estimates (B), the department has proposed a transfer of $38.5 million from vote 5, our capital vote, to vote 10, our grants and contributions.
Vote 5 is the vote in the department that is used principally for the acquisition of land that we hold as part of negotiation processes. This year, the negotiations will not be requiring that money, so we are requesting that it be transferred to vote 10, where it could be used to supplement the expenditures associated with social and infrastructure programming in First Nations and reduce the need for the department to come back seeking additional monies in that particular vote.
As the chief financial officer of the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs, I would also like to take the opportunity to mention that the department has a strong accountability regime in place. Two years ago, INAC adopted the CFO model to strengthen its financial management capacity consistent with a system-wide initiative promoted by the Office of the Comptroller General.
The CFO sector has introduced a regime of training for all resource centre managers, as well as their regular replacements, to strengthen the management of financial resources. This department-specific training is mandatory and is delivered by the Canada School of Public Service.
There is also an audit committee, which includes external members and is chaired by an external member. It is in place and operating and is similar to what exists in the private sector. As well, there is an evaluation committee, which also has external members.
The department has made significant progress in preparing documentation for control-based financial statements and is well positioned with the implementation of the new policy on internal controls.
I would like to thank members of the committee for their time. We look forward to answering your questions.
The Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. Quinn. Could you help us? I am looking at Supplementary Estimates (B) at page 182. You talked about vote 5, which I understood you used for acquisition of land. I see where you have got in brackets, under ``Transfers,'' $38.5 million.
Then I understood you to say that was transferred to vote 10. However, I do not see that amount being transferred into vote 10; I only see $9 million. Did I mishear you?
Mr. Quinn: It is proposed that the $38 million in vote 5, which would not be used this year for the acquisition of lands for negotiation purposes, would be transferred into vote 10, which is detailed on page 186 of the Supplementary Estimates (B).
The Chair: That is a good way to follow through on these things.
Mr. Quinn: You will see it about halfway down under vote 5.
The Chair: Yes, I see $38.4 million leaving vote 5.
Mr. Quinn: That is right. Plus the $600,000 brings it to the total I referred to. It is leaving vote 5, and it is proposed to put it principally into vote 10. We could use those dollars for the social and infrastructure programs in our grants and contribution programs.
The Chair: Should we not see that proposed figure under vote 10? Is it included in a larger figure?
Mr. Quinn: It is included in the larger figure. You will see it on page 186. The $600,000 is under vote 1, and vote 10 is right beside the $38.4 million under vote 5.
The Chair: The $37.8 million is under vote 10.
Mr. Quinn: Yes. The $600,000 is proposed to go to vote 1 and if you total the $37.8 million and the $600,000, that brings you to $38.4 million.
The Chair: Thank you. I was looking for precisely the same figure. That explains it.
Senator Callbeck: I assume the Canadian Northern Economic Development Agency is similar to all the other regional development agencies, like the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency, ACOA. Is a minister of state responsible for that?
Mr. Quinn: There is no minister of state responsible for CanNor. It is an agency within the portfolio of the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development, but it does have its own deputy head.
Senator Callbeck: Why was it created?
Mr. Quinn: CanNor was created in part to focus the economic development opportunities of the North, because the North is an emerging area of economic development activity. The agency will bring a stronger focus to the economic development activity emerging in the North.
Senator Callbeck: It falls under INAC and the minister. How will the services be improved to the people in the North?
Mr. Quinn: While it has been under the portfolio of the minister, it has its own accounting officer, deputy minister and governance around that. It reports directly to the minister. Similar to the way in which other agencies in other departments work, the agency will report to a minister and not necessarily have a separate minister. This agency focuses the energies of the government on working with Aboriginals and northerners and industry on economic development opportunities.
Senator Callbeck: How will that change things for the people of the North? How will it improve the services they receive?
Mr. Quinn: We will have a greater focus on being able to leverage the various players in the North. Rather than having it within a larger portfolio, it is a much narrower portfolio that people can quickly recognize and identify with and that will leverage the energies of the various players as these emerging opportunities arise in the North.
Senator Callbeck: Will it have its own offices?
Mr. Quinn: Yes.
Senator Callbeck: How many will be set up?
Mr. Quinn: The main office has been announced, I believe. I will have to verify that and get back to you, but there will be separate offices and separate staff. For the remainder of this fiscal year, my area of the organization will help to support the set-up of their financial regimes. The IT organization will continue to support them on information technology until they reach that mature state. They do have a separate deputy minister and accounting officer. As of April 1, they will be doing their own reports on plans and priorities and departmental performance reports and those things.
Senator Callbeck: Is all the money for economic development under INAC going to this agency?
Mr. Quinn: No. The economic portfolio in the department encompasses economic activity in the South as well. However, the economic activity in the North is now completely separated out to that northern agency.
Senator Callbeck: I asked how many offices will be set up.
Mr. Quinn: I will have to confirm the number. I could tell you the locations and get back to the committee on the numbers.
Senator Callbeck: There will be economic dollars in the agency as well as in the department.
Mr. Quinn: That is right. The economic development activity in the department is for the southern part of the country across all 10 provinces.
Senator Callbeck: The agency only has to do with the northern part of the country.
Mr. Quinn: That is correct.
Senator Callbeck: Last week, when Treasury Board officials appeared before the committee, I asked about the Registry of the Specific Claims Tribunal. The Main Estimates were for $2.6 million and you are asking for another $272,000, which brings it to about $2.9 million. To date, no judges have been appointed. Do you know when that will happen?
Mr. Quinn: I am not sure when the judges will be appointed.
Senator Callbeck: You have asked for a lot of money. Who is working there?
Mr. Quinn: The tribunal exists. As you know, the specific claims had been handled under the Indian Specific Claims Commission. The tribunal was set up to have a further independent approach to specific claims. Those that cannot be settled between INAC and First Nations have recourse by going before the tribunal where they can be presented and considered for settlement. There is an office and a tribunal head and staff. Again, we could get specific details for the committee.
Senator Callbeck: What is the holdup in appointing the judges to the tribunal?
Mr. Quinn: I do not know what the holdup is.
Senator Callbeck: I would like to have an answer for that question. As well, I would like the figures on how many people are working there and what this money is being used for.
Mr. Quinn: We can provide some information on that.
Senator Callbeck: It is a lot of money and you are asking for more in the Supplementary Estimates (B), when it is not even operational yet.
Mr. Quinn: The money in these estimates is to help to establish and set up the offices of the tribunal. Again, we can get back to you with additional information on that.
Senator Callbeck: Thank you.
The Chair: Can you direct us to the page in the estimates where we can see that?
Mr. Quinn: It is at the bottom of page 188.
The Chair: Is it vote 55 in the amount of $272,000?
Mr. Quinn: Yes.
Senator Ringuette: I have gone through your various requests here, but I do not see any that deal with H1N1 for native communities. We know from the media that it is a special situation. How are you helping, and how much money is appropriated for that, and is it enough?
Mr. Quinn: Health Canada is the lead agency for H1N1 with respect to First Nations. They have the First Nations and Inuit Health Branch to lead that effort. We work with them through our regional operations structure to assist where possible with respect to liaising with communities, transportation and things of that nature. It is part of our normal operation, but Health Canada has the lead for that.
Senator Ringuette: Do you pay Health Canada for the service?
Mr. Quinn: No, Health Canada has that budget within their organization.
Senator Ringuette: I should be looking into the Health Canada requests in here to see what the amount is.
Mr. Quinn: Yes.
Senator Ringuette: How many staff do you have, including the northern economic agency?
Mr. Quinn: The total number of staff in the department is approximately 5,000. On the northern agency, I would like to get back to you with the exact number, which we do have.
Senator Ringuette: Are they included in the 5,000?
Mr. Quinn: No, they are separate, so it is approximately 5,000.
Senator Ringuette: How many of them would be native?
Mr. Quinn: The department has an initiative where we focus on hiring Aboriginal Canadians. I think the average now in the department is around the 25 per cent to 30 per cent mark; but again, I would have to get back to you. It is higher in some regions than in others, and less so in headquarters. Some of the regions have very high numbers; but on average across the department, I believe it is 25 per cent to 30 per cent. I would have to verify that and get back to the committee.
Senator Ringuette: I would appreciate that.
Are the 5,000 full-time permanent staff, or do you include in there contract employees hired through agencies?
Mr. Quinn: The number that I have talked about would be regular employees across the country, including the National Capital Region.
Senator Ringuette: In the information you provide to us, could you say how many extra people are hired by contract?
Mr. Quinn: We could give you a breakout. We can provide information on the employment profile of the department. I think we should be able to provide the information on the number of contractors in the department as well.
Senator Ringuette: Thank you. Correct me if I am wrong, but my impression is that your department acts also as an advocacy group for native rights, concerns and so forth. Is that right?
Mr. Quinn: We work closely with Aboriginals, both on-reserve and off-reserve, as well as Metis and Inuit. I am not sure ``advocacy'' is right word, but we work closely with First Nations in aligning our efforts with priorities that First Nations have, such as water, education, housing, and so on.
Senator Ringuette: Because you work in close contact with the different communities, would you be the department that would raise a flag in regard to native concerns?
Mr. Quinn: Certainly, we are the main focus for the federal government when it comes to Aboriginal issues. There are 34 departments and agencies that work in that field. We are the largest presence in that field, so we do have — as other departments and agencies do — a special relationship with First Nations. We work together with them on concerns with the First Nations, as I mentioned, such as in the areas of water and housing.
Senator Ringuette: And treaties and so forth.
Mr. Quinn: A part of the department deals with First Nations in terms of negotiations for specific claims, comprehensive claims, self-government and things of that nature.
Senator Ringuette: My question is more specific now. Two provinces, along with the federal government, are looking into a harmonized sales tax. That creates a major issue for the native community in regard to sales tax. Have you voiced that concern to the government? I am sure you are concerned, just as I have been, but I am not in direct communication with the different native communities. Have you voiced that concern to the current government?
Mr. Quinn: I think that gets back to the term you used, ``advocacy.'' We would not be representing that particular concern.
I would remind you that First Nations that are on reserve and status Indians and what not do have different entitlements, including tax exemption. However, we would not be advocates in terms of representing that particular concern to other departments of the federal government.
Senator Ringuette: Do you have any relationship with the tax entitlement, making sure that the tax entitlement is respected? You are the people who issue the native recognition card and the number that is used for tax purposes.
Mr. Quinn: That is the registry card, which is used by First Nations as they go about their business in various enterprises in Canada. It is recognized for that particular aspect. It is also the card that ensures the entitlements of First Nations people with respect to other benefits, such as health and things of that nature.
Senator Ringuette: I guess you are saying you have not heard that concern.
Mr. Quinn: I have not heard that concern, no.
Senator Mitchell: I am interested in pursuing the issue of climate change and how that might be impacting — or certainly will be impacting — your budget in a number of ways. For example, I note that you have $46.9 million to support supplying public services and capital facilities and maintenance. If they are anywhere near permafrost, those capital facilities likely have a structural problem.
You have $29 million for the infrastructure fund for First Nations to improve the quality of life. I do not know how far north that goes, but it can have other effects. Climate change is occurring and it is starting to impact, certainly in the Far North, very dramatically. You also have $75 million, for example, to support housing on reserves.
Do you see that your infrastructure obligations are beginning to cost more because of climate change? Are you planning increased adaptation costs in this regard in the future in anticipation of further effects of climate change?
Mr. Quinn: The rate at which we expend the funds on infrastructure is responding to the needs that are in Aboriginal communities, and there is no question that the need is great. However, with respect to climate change, one of the things that the department has been a focal point in coordinating is all the science work for International Polar Year.
Other agencies and departments and international players have been doing various research in the North. Some of that has been dealing with climate change. The results of those studies, when they become available, may help better inform not just this department, but the federal government generally. That has been occurring through the International Polar Year.
The other part is that we also assist First Nations when it comes to fire and floods. This year, the cost of the work we do — the partnerships we have with First Nations and provinces for fire and floods — is less than it was last year. It is hard to tell at this time. Certainly we are aware of it, but it has not really expressed itself.
Senator Mitchell: Does a community like Tuktoyaktuk come under your jurisdiction? Tuktoyaktuk has a line of houses that are absolutely threatened by rising sea levels. They are in great jeopardy now.
Mr. Quinn: That is not one of the communities under our responsibility.
Senator Mitchell: Climate change will fundamentally restructure traditional forms of economy with changes to hunting patterns, for example. It is already happening. It could affect access to mineral deposits, depending on their locations, because ice roads are required to reach those areas. Ice roads will not be as available for as long — they are not, now; and permafrost will also become much more difficult to get over.
When you consider northern development, is anyone thinking about the costs? We keep hearing about all the costs of taking action, but it is important that people start thinking about the costs of inaction, which are astronomically larger than any cost to take action.
Mr. Quinn: We watch and are concerned about the challenge of ice roads. Certainly, the level of activity on ice roads to bring materials into some communities will change. We have to take full advantage of the season that is available. During the shoulder seasons over the last couple of years, it has been increasingly difficult. The challenge is to ensure that the logistics are lined up to bring the materials in by taking advantage of the ice roads to avoid the higher costs of air transportation.
We are conscious of the situation and making an effort to work with it and manage it.
Senator Mitchell: Climate change certainly focuses attention on sovereignty. There is an argument that we need more military presence, but there is also a powerful argument that we need to have traditional peoples ensuring that their way of life is sustained because that is a powerful precedent in international courts that determine questions of sovereignty.
These patterns and ways of life can be changed fundamentally. Does INAC consider the issue of sovereignty or play a role in establishing sovereignty for Canada in the North?
Mr. Quinn: INAC does not do that in the context of the earlier part of your question with respect to military presence, shipping and things of that nature. Certainly, we work closely with the Government of Nunavut and the Government of the Northwest Territories and the Government of Yukon in a number of areas, in particular where there are councils and treaty settlement groups. They have that interest and we work with them. I want to ensure it is clear that we do not consider sovereignty in the first context of your question.
Senator Mitchell: I was thinking of the other side of it, which is much more important and falls within the responsibility of INAC: the role of traditional life and ways in establishing a Canadian presence in those areas.
Mr. Quinn: The economic development activity in the North and that which is proposed in the North involve consultation with the various groups in the North and in the South. Certainly, the traditional way of life and traditional knowledge are important to northern residents and are taken into consideration. Also, those groups work closely with industry to form partnerships that take into account the traditions of the North.
Senator Neufeld: My first question is on payments to Canada Post Corporation in the amount of $66.2 million to provide Northern Air Stage Parcel Service, at page 182. I do not have any experience with this program because I do not live in the Northwest Territories or Nunavut. However, I have heard from some who live there that it is inefficient and that the savings are not transferred to the customer, wherever the product is delivered. I do not know whether that is fact, but how do you monitor that $66 million? Is it ever audited, and if so, by whom?
Mr. Quinn: The program you mentioned we refer to as the Food Mail Program.
Senator Neufeld: Yes.
Mr. Quinn: It has undergone different changes over the years to make it more efficient. It is going through another review now within the department to try to ensure that the efficiencies are obtained by the purchaser at the delivery point.
Senator Neufeld: Can you tell me when you think that review would be done and those savings would be incurred by the people buying the food?
Mr. Quinn: I would have to confirm the answer to that question and get back to you.
Senator Neufeld: Do you know how many people are serviced by that $66 million?
Mr. Quinn: Again, I will have to get back to you with that information.
Senator Neufeld: Will you get back to us?
The Chair: The clerk of the committee will circulate the information to all committee members.
Senator Neufeld: I have a question about the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development's salary and motor car allowance in the amount of $78,422, as seen at page 183. Why does that show up?
Mr. Quinn: That is an increase in the budget for the minister's office because this year new responsibilities were added to the portfolio. Indian residential schools came under the department, which increased the cost of the minister's portfolio.
Senator Neufeld: It is not really a salary and motor car allowance.
Mr. Quinn: That is the name of the allotment that it goes to.
Senator Neufeld: At page 183, there is one entry of $47.4 million for loans to native claimants, and there is a second entry for loans to First Nations in British Columbia in the amount of $30.4 million. I assume that $47.4 million is for the rest of Canada and $30.4 million is for British Columbia. Why are the amounts separate?
Mr. Quinn: In British Columbia, there is a separate process for negotiating claims settlements with the First Nations under the B.C. treaty process, which is a tripartite approach between the province, the federal government and First Nations groups. The other amount would be for other negotiations that occur across Canada.
Senator Neufeld: Only British Columbia has that kind of system for treaty negotiations, and the rest of Canada does it strictly through Indian and Northern Affairs Canada.
Mr. Quinn: B.C. has a large number of First Nations who are in the process of negotiations.
Senator Neufeld: I am aware of how many. Does the rest of Canada negotiate strictly with INAC? There is no treaty commission?
Mr. Quinn: We have treaty commissions in Manitoba and Saskatchewan as well, and other treaty negotiations occur across the country. Of course, they involve not only INAC but other federal departments with an interest as well as the provinces and the First Nations.
Senator Neufeld: Why do you show it differently if there are treaty commissions in other provinces?
Mr. Quinn: The B.C. process is set up quite differently from the others with the British Columbia Treaty Commission, and there is the association that represents the three negotiating partners.
Senator Neufeld: On page 187, I see that you transfer about $16.6 million to First Nations for the management of contaminated sites, but the total budget for contaminated sites is $49.8 million. What do you do with the other $33 million? There must be First Nations that are getting $16 million out of the pie. Who is getting the other $33 million?
Mr. Quinn: On contaminated sites remediation, First Nations are doing work on our behalf, and a grant and contribution is set up with that First Nation to undertake that activity with contractors. Other work is done by the department. We are identifying sites and doing site evaluations and phase 1, 2 and 3 environmental assessments, which get into progressively more detail.
Senator Neufeld: You said you had eight sites completed. How many sites do you have to do?
Mr. Quinn: There are many sites, with most being in the North. I do not have the exact number with me this evening.
Senator Neufeld: Would you provide the number to the clerk?
Mr. Quinn: Yes.
Senator Neufeld: Can the First Nations get some business out of these sites? Are they on-reserve or off-reserve?
Mr. Quinn: They are on reserves or on lands that First Nations have associated with the reserves.
Senator Neufeld: You will tell us the number of sites across the entire North?
Mr. Quinn: They are principally in the North. We will give you the number we have.
Senator Neufeld: I know there are many sites in British Columbia. Are you talking about those areas, too? Other ministries are involved in cleaning up sites, such as Environment Canada.
Mr. Quinn: I am speaking of the sites that fall under the responsibility of our department. I am sure there are other sites that other departments — Department of National Defence, Fisheries and Oceans Canada, for example — have a direct interest in.
Senator Neufeld: You are looking only at sites that are on-reserve?
Mr. Quinn: That is right. We are looking at sites on or associated with reserves. Again, the majority of our sites are in the North. Those sites of course are federal lands; hence, we have a direct oversight responsibility for them.
Senator Neufeld: I do not know how long the program has been in place for funding for the performance measurement system for education to enable data collection on student and school performance. I know that everyone would like to see better results from our education system in northern Aboriginal communities. We would like to get the graduation rates closer to the averages across Canada.
Is that what that program is designed to do? How long has it been in place, and what have you accomplished if it has been in place for quite a while?
Mr. Quinn: This program just started. The preliminary program approval that you see in Supplementary Estimates (B) is to allow us to analyze business requirements to ensure that we are collecting the right data that will enable us to demonstrate the ultimate outcome, which is what you have described. This is a preliminary project approval to enable us to put together the business requirements and work with the various players. We have agreements with First Nations to ensure that we are getting the right data; then we will need to come back to the Treasury Board to get effective project approval to build and implement that system. This is just the beginning stages of that.
Senator Neufeld: When do you think that second part will happen?
Mr. Quinn: The first part, determining the exact requirements, is very important. In the second part, we will explore what opportunities we have to leverage other pieces of technology that exist, not only within our department but possibly with provinces. The system would need to be completed over the next couple of years to get into that better state.
Senator Neufeld: Do you work closely with the provinces? In British Columbia, a number of years ago we instituted a program to work with First Nations communities to provide better education services and get graduation rates up. I am sure other provinces do the same kinds of things. Is there a coordinated effort by your department?
Mr. Quinn: We work closely with provinces. We have agreements on education with First Nations. For example, along with the First Nations and the Province of British Columbia, we have a tripartite agreement on educational programming. We are now working to bring that initiative into effect with other provinces. It is again a matter of doing the right things to leverage the resources and knowledge within those jurisdictions.
Senator Ringuette: I agree that the education issue is quite important. The population of the native community is increasing. Has the budget for post-secondary education increased accordingly? I have been hearing that there are quite a few people on waiting lists for post-secondary education funding.
Mr. Quinn: We have a post-secondary education program in cooperation with First Nations to give students access to post-secondary education funding. We also have the normal education program with provinces and First Nations.
Senator Ringuette: Has the money allocated for post-secondary education been increased?
Mr. Quinn: No.
Senator Ringuette: It has not?
Mr. Quinn: In this year it has not been increased.
Senator Ringuette: We must ensure that the efforts made on education do not fall by the wayside. Two weeks ago, I met with a very bright native woman who told me that she has been on a waiting list for four years to get assistance to attend university.
We know that the native population has increased. Due to the work that is being done with the provinces, more natives are prepared to get a post-secondary education. We must recognize that if we spend money ensuring that Aboriginals are prepared to go on to post-secondary education, there will be an increase in requests for post-secondary education funding. If there is no increase in funding, we are selling them short.
Mr. Quinn: We currently spend approximately $350 million on post-secondary education. That money is allocated to First Nations, and people who wish to go on to post-secondary education work with their chief and band council to get the funding.
The issue is that we have done an audit on the program that is demonstrating that the results are not what we would hope they would be, so that program is under review now. That is the kind of metrics involved in the $350 million and how that works with the communities. The students do not apply directly to the department. They work with their communities, and the communities make decisions on supporting students.
[Translation]
Senator Carignan: Mr. Quinn, I do not know whether this issue is under your department's responsibility or Justice Canada's responsibility, but I am a member of the Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs which studies bills related to criminal issues.
That committee is always surprised to see that the number of Aboriginal people in prisons is disproportionately higher than the number of non-Aboriginal people. This bias is caused by poverty and drug addiction.
In your budget, are there any specific funds for crime and drug addiction prevention programs for Aboriginal people?
[English]
Mr. Quinn: We have budgets that support social programming, such as child and family services and income assistance, but your question specifically is whether we have budgets that support prevention of crime and things of that nature. We do not have those direct budgets. Certainly, as I said in the opening comments, we have budgets that are geared towards helping to improve conditions for First Nations people, but we do not have budgets directly related to your specific question. That is why you do not see it in supplementary estimates.
[Translation]
Senator Carignan: Would the department of Justice be in charge of this, or is it a situation where nobody is responsible for this aspect of the program which is therefore left without any support?
[English]
Mr. Quinn: I cannot speak for other departments, but certainly for the public safety portfolio, Public Safety Canada may be an area you would want to look to.
[Translation]
Senator Carignan: There is also an amount of $15,574,000 in the Community Adjustment Fund. Could you elaborate on that?
The Chair: Senator, which page are you looking at?
Senator Carignan: I am sorry, it is on page 137 in the French version.
The Chair: Page 183 in the English version.
[English]
It is 183 in the English version and 137 in the French version.
Mr. Quinn: We will have to get back to you on that.
Senator Eggleton: I would like to ask you about the Urban Aboriginal Strategy. It is referenced under contributions on page 187, but I have a more general question about the program. It was created back in 1998. In 2007, the current government gave a five-year allocation of $68.5 million. It has three broad priorities — improving life skills, promoting job skills, training and entrepreneurship — all of which are vital to help get Aboriginal people into employment and out of poverty. As we have learned in our study at the Social Affairs Subcommittee on Cities, more than twice as many Aboriginals are in poverty compared to the balance of the population, and the unemployment figures are also staggeringly high.
This program is to help in that regard. Is the money getting out the door? Could you comment on that? What are some of the outcomes or accomplishments under this program to this point? The program has been designed and has operated for some time in just 14 cities. What about everywhere else? The majority of Aboriginal people now live in cities, off-reserve. This becomes a more vital program than ever before. Can you comment also on whether it is going to other cities?
Mr. Quinn: The Urban Aboriginal Strategy is one area that has been a success story, where Aboriginals in urban centres have been working with various departments of the federal government.
You may remember the blue ribbon panel on grants and contributions. One initiative resulting from that work in Edmonton was to work together with the province, the city and the federal departments so that as people, particularly from the North, arrive in Edmonton for services, such as medical services, appointments and other things, they have a focal point of arriving and being assisted through the maze they would otherwise have to deal with on their own. That has proven to be a success. I believe they are looking at taking that initiative into Winnipeg because of the success that has been demonstrated in Edmonton.
The Urban Aboriginal Strategy is an important program to assist urban Aboriginals.
Senator Eggleton: You are saying it is working; the money is getting out the door. What about expanding it beyond the 14 cities?
Mr. Quinn: I am not aware of plans in that regard. We continue to focus on that Urban Aboriginal Strategy, remembering that the majority of Aboriginals who arrive in urban centres tend to arrive in the larger urban centres, such as Toronto, Edmonton, Regina and Vancouver. The strategy is focused on the areas where people tend to concentrate.
Senator Eggleton: Let me ask you about another program that deals with urban Aboriginals, and that is the Off- Reserve Aboriginal Housing Trust. This one was allocated $300 million in 2006. It is, I take it, largely capital funds. It does not include operating funds, which I understand from the community is an issue. How is that money getting out the door and how many units has it built? What about the ongoing operating needs subsidies for these projects to keep them viable? What is happening there?
Mr. Quinn: The $300 million for off-reserve is from Budget 2006. I would have to come back and give you the specifics of that. I do not have that information.
Senator Eggleton: If you can give some detail on that, it is another major issue.
The Chair: I have a supplementary question. Can we find that in either the Main Estimates or the supplementary estimates? Can we find an accounting of that?
Mr. Quinn: You will not find it in the supplementary estimates. It would be in the Main Estimates, but it would be clumped in as an aggregate. I will break that out and get that back to you.
The Chair: When you are breaking it out, could you show us what you are breaking it out from in the Main Estimates?
Mr. Quinn: Sure.
The Chair: Give us a page and say it is right in there. That would be the same for the other initiative, the Urban Aboriginal Strategy?
Mr. Quinn: Yes. That has its own envelope. That is more clearly identified.
Senator Eggleton: You have referenced a couple of times tonight working with the provinces. That has a long history of difficulty. It is more acute for people coming off the reserve and going into urban areas, particularly if they go back and forth. This can be a big challenge because there is always the jurisdiction — whose responsibility are they in these transition periods and when they get into urban areas? This jurisdictional dispute has been around for decades. Is that getting anywhere near settlement? Is any progress being made?
Mr. Quinn: There is a large migration back and forth, on- and off-reserve. In the last number of years, the provinces and the federal government have been working more closely together on education, child and family services, regulatory initiatives and the like. I think the relationship between the First Nations and the provinces and the federal government is improving. It has proven to be beneficial concerning things I mentioned earlier, such as the tripartite education agreement in British Columbia and the child and family service agreements in Alberta and Nova Scotia, I believe.
Senator Eggleton: Is there anything in Ontario?
Mr. Quinn: In Ontario, there are ongoing discussions on how to move into these partnerships as well.
Senator Eggleton: Not much progress, though, from the sounds of it.
Mr. Quinn: I think in Ontario there are some examples where jurisdictions have worked together to advance the agenda.
Senator Di Nino: On the Urban Aboriginal Strategy, I believe 14 cities were chosen to be the recipients of that funding. How were these cities identified? Who chose them?
Mr. Quinn: The Urban Aboriginal Strategy has been in place for some time, so the identification of those cities would have occurred some time ago. They tend to be cities where the larger populations congregate. However, I do not know the exact history of how those cities were chosen. I would have to go back and check.
Senator Di Nino: I am not sure I need that. I just want to ensure that the Aboriginal communities are being consulted when these choices are being made, that the Aboriginal communities are engaged in the process to choose the areas where the funds would be directed.
Mr. Quinn: Today we have close working relationships with the organizations that represent the off-reserve Aboriginal people. The department has the Office of the Federal Interlocutor, whose focus is on the off-reserve and Metis populations, and that office has a presence in various parts of Canada. They have ongoing close working relationships with the communities, as well as with provincial representation.
Senator Di Nino: I would be happy, Mr. Chair, if Mr. Quinn could clarify that in a statement to us.
The Chair: That would be helpful. If you know there are some urban communities that want in on the program but are not in on it, we would be interested in knowing about that.
Mr. Quinn: Yes.
Senator Eggleton: I look forward to the further information. It would be most helpful on both those programs.
The Chair: I should make the point at this time that we are dealing with Supplementary Estimates (B), which will provide the support for a supply bill that will be forthcoming, and we will be expected to deal with that expeditiously when we get it. It is hard for us to deal with it if we have not received those undertakings you have given us. It goes full circle here. If you would like to have your money, please get the information for us.
Mr. Quinn: We will be responding.
Senator Gerstein: In the estimates, there is approximately $41 million for the funding of payments under the Indian Residential Schools Settlement Agreement.
How would you characterize how the progress is coming along? Are we doing well in getting these payments out to survivors? Is it drawn out?
Mr. Quinn: On the Common Experience Payment, which was the first wave, I think that was done very well and within a relatively short time frame. That is a success story in terms of executing the government's intention of getting money to survivors.
There is an independent assessment review process, where people have the right to have an appeal process. That is being dealt with as well. Overall, this program is doing well; it is on target and is proceeding.
Senator Gerstein: In your opening remarks, you made specific reference to enhanced audit controls and monitoring of the funds being disbursed from your department. Could you expand to that? Is that a change in recent years?
Mr. Quinn: The institution of the chief audit executive in each of the departments — in our case, with a direct reporting to the deputy minister with the external evaluation committee and the external members of the audit committee — is a change. The whole cycle of every auditable entity being audited on a five-year cycle and every evaluation entity being reviewed on a three-year cycle, and holding us to account through that audit committee and evaluation committee process, is a more focused approach.
I think our department is well served by the external members. They bring that external focus to the department. Quite frankly, in the subject matter I am involved in, they cause us to be much sharper in our information that they need to be satisfied that we are responding to the various concerns and issues that have been raised through the audit process and through the discussions with them at those committees.
Senator Gerstein: Thank you for that answer.
The estimates show $21.5 million for out-of-court settlements. Why did the government choose to settle these out of court? What percentage of disputes actually go to court? Could you give us some background on these situations?
Mr. Quinn: I do not know the percentage that are settled out of court, but essentially it is preferable to settle disputes or disagreements out of court. It is more immediate for the communities, less costly for the communities and less costly for the federal government. However, I do not have the percentage of those that go through to legal and are settled out of court.
This one was settled — an out-of-court specific claim that the First Nation and the federal government had been negotiating for some time. They reached an agreement, and the First Nation community ratified what their representation had negotiated with the federal government.
The Chair: Before I go to the second round, I want to confirm something and put it on the record. Mr. Quinn, you went through some figures during your introduction; with these supplementary estimates, INAC's budget would be $7.712 billion. Is that correct?
Mr. Quinn: It will be closer to $7.6 billion. Again, I think I mentioned at the opening on the budget cycle that we start with the Main Estimates and then the Supplementary Estimates (A) come forward. That increased it to approximately $7.3 billion, and these supplementary estimates would bring it closer to the $7.63 billion mark.
The Chair: Could you help me then and look at page 184 of Supplementary Estimates (B). ``Total Ministry'' — is that the total department? What is that $7.712 billion?
Mr. Quinn: You are looking at the entire portfolio. I am talking about just the department itself. There is the main line department, and then there are some other institutions.
The Chair: Some other agencies?
Mr. Quinn: That is right.
The Chair: Like some of the agencies we discussed.
Mr. Quinn: That is right, like on page 184.
The Chair: Okay, good. I was trying to compare the figure you gave earlier to this one. We look at global figures, and I understand that was within your department.
Senator Ringuette: With regard to the post-secondary education program, you indicated that there has been an audit of that program. When was that audit done and by whom?
Mr. Quinn: The audit would have been undertaken by the department with outside help. I can verify whom that would have been done by, and it would have been done in fiscal 2008-09, I believe, but again I would have to verify that. I would have to get back and tell you exactly when.
Senator Ringuette: By ``outside help,'' do you mean a firm?
Mr. Quinn: Yes. When our audits are done we do a number of audits; given the number of audits we do, we will often turn to outside firms to help us undertake an audit activity. Some audits we do in the organization with our own audit staff, and for others we contract to assist our audit staff.
Senator Ringuette: Does that audit become a public document? Is it reported to the minister?
Mr. Quinn: It comes through the audit committee. When audit reports are completed they are tabled at the audit committee, and then within 90 days, I believe, they are posted on the departmental website. Therefore audits are available.
Senator Ringuette: What would I find if go to your website?
Mr. Quinn: You should be able to see the results of audits that have gone through the audit committee.
Senator Ringuette: Does it include this one about the post-secondary program?
Mr. Quinn: I am not sure whether that one has gone through the audit committee process. I believe it has, but I can verify that. In fact, if it is available we can steer you exactly to where it can be found.
Senator Ringuette: Okay. Is it a routine proceeding of your department that on a five-year, seven-year, eight-year cycle you audit the different programs?
Mr. Quinn: Yes.
Senator Ringuette: Is it routinely done within your department?
Mr. Quinn: Every entity in the department is audited over a five-year cycle.
Senator Ringuette: Is that with an external organization, a third party?
Mr. Quinn: Not always with external organizations. Audits on some entities are done within our own audit shop, but when we get into a whole series of audits, rather than hire full-time permanent staff we will go to experts in audits, such as accredited audit firms, to assist us. That is common practice across the government.
Senator Ringuette: Is that acceptable from the perspective of the Auditor General?
Mr. Quinn: Absolutely.
Senator Ringuette: I understand that you have audited, and you have indicated that there is a need for efficiencies, but have your audits also reported that there is a need for greater funds to satisfy the needs?
Mr. Quinn: No. Our audits look at how a program is performing, what the outcomes are and whether they are meeting expectations, what the management regimes are around the particular activity, and things of that nature. I do not believe that they would talk about whether there is enough money or not enough money. I believe they talk about the money that is being invested and look at the management regimes and the results being achieved. They come at it that way and provide advice about how the program could perform better.
Senator Ringuette: How many years has there not been an increase in that particular program?
Mr. Quinn: We would have to check that. I cannot answer that tonight.
Senator Ringuette: Again, I am coming back to the rationale that if we are running successful programs with the provinces and those communities in order to have people in our native communities get a diploma, then we have to recognize that their requests to further their education at a post-secondary level will also increase in number. That is why I am asking.
I found it quite abnormal that this woman has been on a waiting list for four years, on the one hand, and on the other hand, everyone is saying we want to increase the level of education and there are good jobs out there in the northern parts of provinces, Northern Alberta and Northern Saskatchewan, for educated natives.
If we have natives on waiting lists, what are we waiting for?
Mr. Quinn: The question of a person being on a waiting list, waiting for post-secondary education, is not something we administer.
Senator Ringuette: You still have not increased the program.
Mr. Quinn: I was going to add that there are other programs in the federal government that people can access to look for post-secondary education support. There is the Canada Student Loans Program, for example. Again, the dollars we invest in post-secondary education are done so in partnership with the communities. Often it is hard to provide a comment on an individual case and the circumstances surrounding that individual case. I could not comment on that.
Senator Ringuette: I am anxious to look at the results of the audit and maybe further the issue down the road, because the basic goal has to be followed up. It seems to me that if there is no increase in the program to satisfy the increased demand of people in our native communities to acquire a post-secondary education, then we are missing the boat. We are failing. I will look at the audit.
Senator Neufeld: I want to go to the Canadian Northern Economic Development Agency. We just talked about education and economic activity in First Nations community, and my opinion we have to focus on that if we are ever going to get out of the poverty position in which First Nations communities unfortunately find themselves.
I see there is $50.3 million. Will that be the total for the year? Has this program been going on for a number of years, or is it a new initiative? I am new here so I have not seen anything for the other years. Is it about the same kind of money every year? What can you tell me about it?
Mr. Quinn: The economic development activity in the North has been ongoing for a number of years, but with the creation of CanNor in Budget 2009, $25 million was directed to the new agency, plus $25 million was transferred to the agency from the areas that our department normally would do in the North. The total for the agency is approximately $50 million.
Senator Neufeld: Was the other half of that in Budget 2009?
Mr. Quinn: It was part of Budget 2009.
Senator Neufeld: That is good. Can you clarify for me whether that is money that would be spent on-reserve only in all of Canada?
Mr. Quinn: That money is for the North. There are very few reserves in the North. This is for economic activity across the northern territories, even extending down into some of the northern parts of provinces. It is for the areas outside of the southern reserve system.
Senator Neufeld: Would that basically be Nunavut, Northwest Territories and Yukon?
Mr. Quinn: That is correct.
Senator Neufeld: Can you give me an example of some of the successes, not of the $25 million you just received, obviously, but the $25 million spent before that? Can you give me a sense of where you have had successful ventures where this has created employment and so on?
Mr. Quinn: A series of scientific works was done in the North that assist industry to determine where to make investments and things of that nature. I would probably serve you better if I got you some of those examples, because this is now a separate agency in and of itself.
There is science work, some resource development work that occurred in the North, and mining ventures, for example, and things of that nature. However, I do not have information on specific projects.
Senator Neufeld: I appreciate that. I did not know whether you would have it. It would be nice, Mr. Chair, if we could get some examples.
Mr. Quinn: We can give some examples.
Senator Neufeld: If it is mining, I would like to know a bit history about the mine. Many of these mines were discovered or tagged a long time ago and are just coming into production now.
Tell me what it does but also where it has really helped employment, which I think is what we are trying to do with the First Nations, and their opportunity to have economic development and maybe help them get a business going or something of that nature.
Mr. Quinn: We will work with the agency to put something together that would describe what you are requesting.
Senator Neufeld: Thank you.
Senator Di Nino: I have two quick points. To return to Senator Ringuette's questioning on the post-secondary education program, do you have sufficient resources to administer that program?
Mr. Quinn: Do we have sufficient resources for post-secondary education? Again, the dollars for that program are part of grants and contributions to First Nation communities, and communities work with their members in administering and deciding who is eligible for post-secondary education funds.
Senator Di Nino: Senator Ringuette was concerned that the funds may be insufficient to satisfy the need for that program. Do you think that is the case?
Mr. Quinn: It would be difficult for me to comment on that, given my position in the department as chief financial officer. However, the department has made those investments over a number of years, and I think I would leave the answer there.
Senator Di Nino: I am not sure that really gives us the answer. I have some sympathy for Senator Ringuette's question. She is asking whether, if the demand is growing, resources are being made available to ensure the growing demand is being serviced. However, you are saying you are not the right person to ask that question of.
Mr. Quinn: You asked me to express an opinion about whether enough money is being made available. I think the demands are great across the Aboriginal portfolio. I mentioned there are 34 departments and agencies across the federal government that play in this arena, and the federal government invests approximately $11 billion in the portfolio overall.
There are great demands out there, as there are in other sectors of Canadian society. I think it is challenging to be able to respond to the magnitude of the need.
Senator Di Nino: I will ask one other quick question.
The Food Mail Program is an interesting program designed to assist Aboriginals who are away from the ability to go to a store and buy fresh foods, in particular. How is that progressing? Do you have an audit of that, an evaluation of performance on a regular basis?
Mr. Quinn: I want to clarify that the Food Mail Program is geared towards Aboriginals and northerners. For example, if you go into the local grocery store in Iqaluit, you can see products that are supported by the Food Mail Program. I wanted to clarify that. That it is for that broader group.
Senator Di Nino: Are you saying it includes peoples other than Aboriginals?
Mr. Quinn: Yes, it includes northerners, as well. As I think I mentioned earlier, that program is under review now. That is where that stands.
Senator Di Nino: We will look for the response and the review, Mr. Chair.
The Chair: We will look forward to those undertakings you have given us.
We are under a bit of a time constraint here. Therefore, if you have some of the answers, please send them to our clerk to be circulated to give everyone a chance to consider those. If you have to do a little more work on some of the others, they will be coming as soon as you can get them to us.
Mr. Quinn: With your permission, Mr. chair, the department will go back with all the different things we said, and we will feed them back to your clerk.
The Chair: Yes, then the clerk will make them available to each senator on the committee.
Mr. Quinn has a plane to catch and I thought we would be finished a while ago. Is your question a very quick one, Senator Neufeld?
Senator Neufeld: Yes. Also, he can get back to us in writing with the answer. Are employees of the federal government in the North treated exactly the same as the First Nations are in the North in the Food Mail Program?
I understand that if you are an employee with the federal government in the North, you may get total subsidy but, if you are a First Nation person, you may not get the same subsidy.
Mr. Quinn: I do not think that is correct.
Senator Neufeld: That would be good for you to answer, then. You can clear my mind.
The Chair: Is that the answer?
Mr. Quinn: My answer is that that is not correct.
The Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. Quinn, Mr. Francis and Mr. Traversy, for being with us this evening. This is the first time we have had INAC before our committee in some time. It has been very helpful for us all.
(The committee adjourned.)