Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Fisheries and Oceans
Issue 1 - Evidence - March 3, 2009
OTTAWA, Tuesday, March 3, 2009
The Standing Senate Committee on Fisheries and Oceans met this day at 5:40 p.m., pursuant to rule 88 of the Rules of the Senate, to organize the activities of the committee.
[English]
Éric Jacques, Clerk of the Committee: Honourable senators, I wish to welcome you to the Standing Senate Committee on Fisheries and Oceans. As clerk of the committee, it is my duty to preside over the election of the chair. I am ready to receive a motion to that effect.
Senator Cook: I move that Senator Rompkey become chair.
Mr. Jacques: Are there any other nominations? It is moved by the Honourable Senator Cochrane that the Honourable Senator Rompkey do take the chair of this committee.
Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Mr. Jacques: I declare the motion carried. I invite the Honourable Senator Rompkey to take the chair.
Senator Bill Rompkey (Chair) in the chair.
The Chair: Honourable senators, I want to thank you for placing me in this position and I hope that we can look forward to an enjoyable and productive year. Some of us have been on this committee before, but we welcome some new people. Welcome Senator MacDonald. I know he will be a good addition for us. He has already indicated that he knows the fisheries industry, knows people in the fisheries industry and he knows people from Newfoundland. All of this stands him in good stead. We are looking forward to a good year.
Now, we will move on to other positions. We have to fill the position of deputy chair. I am open for nominations for deputy chair.
[Translation]
Senator Robichaud: I nominate Senator Cochrane to become deputy chair of this committee.
[English]
The Chair: Senator Robichaud has nominated Senator Cochrane. Are there any further nominations? There being none, I declare Senator Cochrane elected deputy chair.
Senator Cochrane: Thank you very much.
The Chair: We go on to the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure. We need another person for that subcommittee. I am open to nominations for that third person.
Senator Cochrane: I move that Senator Robichaud be our third member.
The Chair: It has been moved by Senator Cochrane and seconded by Senator Cook that Senator Robichaud be the third person on the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure. Are there further nominations?
Senator Cochrane proposes that the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be composed of the chair, the deputy chair and one other member of the committee to be designated after the usual consultation — that is now Senator Robichaud — and that the subcommittee be empowered to make decisions on behalf of the committee with respect to its agenda to invite witnesses and to schedule hearings. That is the motion, honourable senators. Are you read to adopt that motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Item 4 is a motion to print the committee's proceedings. I need a mover for the motion that the committee print its proceedings and that the chair be authorized to set the number to meet demand.
Senator MacDonald: I so move.
The Chair: Is that agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Item 5: we need the authorization to hold meetings and to print evidence when a quorum is not present. The motion is that pursuant to rule 89, the chair be authorized to hold meetings, to receive and authorize the printing of the evidence when a quorum is not present, provided that a member of the committee from the both government and the opposition be present.
This is the usual procedure we have followed for a long time, simply to hear evidence. Do I have a mover for that?
Senator Peterson: I so move.
The Chair: Senator Peterson so moves. Is it agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: It is agreed.
Item 6 is the financial report. I need a mover to move the motion that the committee adopt the draft first report prepared in accordance with rule 104(2).
[Translation]
Senator Robichaud: I presume we are talking about the report we have in our hands, which indicates an amount of $222,357, don't we? I so move.
[English]
The Chair: Has everyone got a copy of that? That is the first report. The motion should be that the committee adopt the draft first report. Do I have a mover for that?
Senator Robichaud: I so move.
The Chair: It has been moved by Senator Robichaud. Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Agreed. Is that an initial budget?
Senator Robichaud: No, that is money we spent.
The Chair: Okay. For item 7, research staff, I need a mover for the motion that the committee ask the Library of Parliament to assign analysts to the committee — and not simply any analyst; we have to insist that Claude be seconded to this committee, because without him we would cease to function as a committee — that the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be authorized to retain the services of such experts as may be required by the work of the committee and that the chair on behalf of the committee direct the research staff in the preparation of studies, analysis, summaries and draft reports.
What Senator Cook would like to move is that we ask the Library of Parliament to assign analysts, that we have the authority, from time to time, to engage other analysts and researchers as required and that we supervise that research staff in the production of studies. Senator Cook has moved that motion.
Is that agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: That is agreed.
For item 8, I need a motion for the authority to commit funds and to certify accounts. Does everyone have a copy of this?
Hon. Senators: Yes.
The Chair: We need a motion to commit funds and that authority be conferred individually on the chair, the deputy chair and the clerk of the committee. We need authority for certifying accounts payable to the committee in a similar way and that, notwithstanding the foregoing in cases related to consultants and personnel services, the authority to commit funds and certify accounts be conferred jointly on the chair and the deputy chair.
I need a mover for that motion.
Senator Cochrane: I so move.
The Chair: Is that agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Item 9 is travel. I need a mover for the motion that the committee empower the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure to designate, as required, one or more members of the committee and/or such staff as may be necessary to travel on assignment on behalf of the committee.
That is in case we need it. We may travel from time to time; we may have to ask people to travel with us or on our behalf. I need a motion for that.
Senator Peterson: I so move.
The Chair: Is that agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Item 10 is the designation of members traveling on committee business. I need a mover for the motion that the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be authorized to: 1) determine whether any member of the committee is on ``official business'' for the purposes of paragraph 8(3)(a) of the Senators Attendance Policy; and 2) consider any member of the committee to be on ``official business'' if that member is (a) attending an event or meeting related to the work of the committee, or (b) making a presentation related to the work of the committee; and that the subcommittee report at the earliest opportunity any decisions taken with respect to the designation of members of the committee traveling on committee business.
We need that because, from time to time, subcommittees or even individual senators may want to attend conferences or events of one sort or another authorized by the committee. Therefore, they are traveling on committee business. We need a motion to give us that authority.
Senator MacDonald: So moved.
The Chair: Is that agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Item 11, traveling and living expenses of witnesses. I need a motion that pursuant to the Senate guidelines for witness expense, the committee may reimburse reasonable traveling and living expenses for one witness from any one organization and payment will take place upon application, but that the chair be authorized to approve expenses for a second witness should there be exceptional circumstances.
That is simply giving us the authorization to identify witnesses that we want to bring to the committee. The money for the witnesses is in a different fund. We do not have to take that out of our budget. There is a separate budget for witnesses. All we need is to be able to go to Internal Economy and say, ``We would like these witnesses to appear before the committee.''
[Translation]
Senator Robichaud: There is a budget for witnesses, which is totally separate from the committee budget. Here, we have the authority to pay only for one witness, and in some cases, two, if we need it. We do not have to go to Internal Economy for this kind of expenses.
[English]
The Chair: The bottom line is that the expenses do not come out of our budget. We need to identify —
Senator Robichaud: Witnesses.
The Chair: Yes, that is right, witnesses. We need to identify which witnesses we want to hear. I need a mover for that.
Senator Cochrane: I so move.
The Chair: Is that agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Item 12, electronic media coverage of public meetings. I need a mover for the motion that the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be empowered to allow coverage by electronic media of the committee's public proceedings with the least possible disruption of its hearings at its discretion.
This is simply to give us the authority to meet in a room like this, which does not have any cameras, does it? If we are going to go public, we need to be in a room that has cameras or we need to have a portable one brought in here.
Senator Robichaud: We can have public meetings in here. It is just here for the authorization.
The Chair: For media, right. I need a mover for that.
Senator Peterson: I so move.
The Chair: It is moved by Senator Peterson. Is that agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: The time slots for regular meetings are Tuesday when the Senate rises but not before 5 p.m. and Thursday from 10:30 a.m. to 12:30 p.m. We have in the past sometimes met once a week and sometimes met twice a week. We have not always met twice a week. We use the second meeting as required. That does not need a motion, because that is set.
I thought we might take a brief moment to talk about the future. I would propose that the steering committee perhaps meet tomorrow to discuss future business and bring a report before you at the earliest possible opportunity. However, I wanted to see whether anyone had any general comments that they wanted to make. Let us go in camera.
Senator Robichaud: Why should we go in camera? We are not discussing anything private or personnel matters. We can, but I do not see the need.
The Chair: Okay, good. If anyone has any thoughts on future business, you might want to indicate them.
We had engaged in a study on the Coast Guard, which took us into the Eastern Arctic. We just about have a report ready as a result of the week we spent in the Eastern Arctic and as a result of the witnesses we heard over the past year. We are just about ready to finalize that report. However, we have not gone to the West at all. It seems to me that if we are to adequately deal with the question of the Coast Guard, we should really do both Eastern Canada and Western Canada. I just wanted to remind us all of that. We do not have to decide what we will do today. As I say, the steering committee will meet and discuss and put a report before you, but that is certainly the exercise that we have been engaged in. It is sort of unfinished business.
Senator Cochrane: I have something, but if we are to discuss future business tomorrow, would you rather that I wait for tomorrow?
The Chair: It does not matter.
Senator Cochrane: I have been speaking with the Fisheries Committee on the other side, and they will be traveling to the East Coast and looking at the concerns that we talked about, the dire straits that the fishery is into and so on. If they do that, it would be redundant if we did it as well. That is my feeling, and I expressed it to you before. Maybe we should go to the Western Arctic as we had planned last year and continue on. We did our study on the Eastern Arctic, and now maybe we should go to the Western Arctic and finish that.
The Chair: That is my feeling. Does anyone else want to comment?
[Translation]
Senator Robichaud: I think we should go to the Western Arctic, that is what we had planned to do within our study. Do we need a motion to report all the evidence we heard before this committee? Do we have to report to the Senate with an adopted motion for all these items?
[English]
You know where I am coming from.
The Chair: Yes. Should we do it in committee first, or do we ask the Senate to do it?
Senator Robichaud: This committee has to present a motion to the Senate, and it has to be approved that that matter be brought back for the consideration of this committee.
Senator Watt: This is the continuation of the work we did last year?
Senator Robichaud: Yes, to take what we have done, because we only prepared an interim report, and we want to complete that. We have all that information, and we have to bring it back so it can be before us.
Senator Watt: We need to have it approved by the Senate one more time?
The Chair: The clerk has prepared an order of reference, and it reads that orders of reference for the Second Session of the Thirty-ninth Parliament —
Senator Robichaud: We are the Second Session of the Fortieth Parliament, are we not?
The Chair: Senator Robichaud is saying that we did publish an interim report, but we accumulated more evidence after that.
Mr. Jacques: You ask for that in the same motion.
The Chair: Senator Robichaud is proposing that we ask the Senate to allow us to bring that evidence back in now so that we do not have to go over it all again. We take up the work that we did before, and we assume that we have the evidence that we collected in our possession now.
Senator Cochrane: We do not have to table it.
The Chair: I think we have to ask the Senate.
Senator Robichaud: We can do that at the same time that we go for a new mandate for the committee.
The Chair: We do not have to do that now, then? Maybe we should have a motion to confirm that. Do you want to move it?
Senator Robichaud: Yes. It does not matter whether we do it now or later, but maybe the clerk has the right way of doing it.
Senator Watt: Can I ask for clarification? By doing this, are we trying to come up with a clear division between work to be carried out in the future and work that has already been carried out? Does this require a further completion? Is that what it is?
The Chair: No, I think it is the opposite, that there be no division and that we include all the work we have done.
Senator Watt: Would it not to be better to discuss that after we discuss the future work? You want to discuss the future work tomorrow and do not want to deal with it now.
The Chair: Yes.
Senator Watt: Why do we not compile the two together?
The Chair: Let us leave it for the steering committee to deal with tomorrow. We will leave this for now.
Are there any other comments?
Senator Watt: The issue I am about to bring up is something that everyone is very familiar with: the whole question of the sealing industry. What will we do about it? We know for a fact that the harp seals are the biggest competitors we have in the ocean. The European Community is trying to tell Canada what to do. I do not think that is the right thing to do, and I do not think legally they have the authority to tell us what to do. Would we not want to undertake to come up with some report on this issue? It is a well-known issue, but we do have a problem in Canada. It is a problem that we ourselves do not create. It is a problem of perception that is created by the other side overseas. I am just wondering whether this is a perfect time to deal with that and to confront the European Community. If we say nothing and stay silent on the matter, how will they interpret us? I feel it is necessary for us to come out swinging. This is our livelihood.
Senator Cook: Does Canada not already endorse the sealing? We have said we support the sealing and this is our hunt. The problem is probably for Foreign Affairs with the marketing piece of it. This present government supports the seal hunt. It is what you do with them after you hunt them. We eat them; they are lovely. It is the marketing. It is the selling of the pelts and the meat that has been cut off from us. There is no sale for this product.
Senator Watt: Right now there is no sale.
Senator Cook: No, but our government has said we support it.
Senator Watt: Simply making the statement that we support this as a country and as a government here in Canada, is that good enough?
Senator Cook: You cannot force people to buy your stuff.
Senator Watt: What else can we do?
Senator Robichaud: The federal government is not the only entity saying that it supports the seal harvest. There was a meeting of provincial ministers, I think it was last week, of the Atlantic and Quebec, and they came out with a press release saying they support the seal harvest. I think there are things being done, but those who do not want to hear it will not hear it.
If there is anything we can do to help, I would be willing to look into it, but I am not sure that whatever we do will help the situation, will help the Europeans to more fully understand, because they just do not want to.
Senator Cochrane: During my discussion at the Fisheries Committee in the House of Commons, I heard that one of the things they will look at when they are traveling, and it will be happening soon, is the seal fishery.
Senator Watt: What does that mean, ``seal fishery''?
Senator Cochrane: They will study the seal hunt as part of their mandate. Before they leave, part of their mandate will include the seal hunt. There will be a section on it. That satisfied me at the time.
Senator Watt: Well, our fight in Canada goes a long way back, quite a few years. I still tend to feel, to a certain extent, that we are still looking at seal pelts period and not looking at the by-product, not looking at seal fat being used for medications or whatever other applications. Many by-products have arisen since long after the problems with the European Community related to marketing the seal skins, so to a certain extent we must do some educating. We may think we have done enough of that, but no one wants to hear.
The Chair: Senator Cochrane's point is that if the House of Commons committee is dealing with that and we are dealing with it at the same time, there is a bit of redundancy, and maybe we would be wise to wait and see what the House of Commons comes up with.
Senator Watt: I have no problem with that, as long as at some point down the road we come back and address this issue again. It will not go away.
The Chair: We should monitor the issue and see if there is a role for us to play after the House of Commons has had their hearings.
Senator Robichaud: The harvesting of seals is permitted only when total utilization of the carcass is made. You cannot go out just for the pelts, and this is very clear.
Senator Watt: What you are saying is true, but as much as we like to express to everyone that, yes, it is a full utilization, we have a problem with the taste of the seal.
Senator Robichaud: I have a problem with that, too.
Senator Watt: I have some ideas about what to do with that aspect of it. Maybe we can market the meat better down the road. I would like to see that.
The Chair: Let us agree to monitor that situation and keep an eye on what the House of Commons is doing. In the meantime, if you are agreeable, the steering committee will meet and make a proposal for the future to put in front of committee members, and we will see where we go from there.
Senator Robichaud: If the committee from the other place goes to Atlantic Canada, they will surely hear about it, that they like it or not. People will come forward and present their positions and how they live, the entire picture.
As you are saying, Mr. Chair, we could monitor what is happening. If there is a need for us, maybe we should at one time come out in favour of the seal hunt. Senator Watt was saying there is a lot of educating to be done about how some communities use the whole carcass. Maybe we could come out with a press release after we have looked at it, just to make a point and present something else if the House of Commons committee does not really touch the issue.
The Chair: If it is agreeable, we will proceed in that fashion. The steering committee will meet. We will put a proposal in front of you and see where to go from there. Is there any further discussion?
Senator Robichaud: When is the next meeting?
The Chair: If we can meet tomorrow as a steering committee, we could probably have something ready for Thursday. I would think the quicker we get going the better in terms of accessing money and so on. Is that a consideration? The end of the fiscal year is coming up. The other thing is, there is a finite pot of money for committees, so the sooner we get our request in the better, it seems to me.
Senator Robichaud: Can we get organized to go out before the end of this fiscal year? I do not think so.
The Chair: No, no.
Senator Robichaud: We will be operating on the $10,000 emergency fund.
The Chair: We will have to operate on the next fiscal year for something like that.
Senator Robichaud: We will have to look at next spring.
Senator Cook: You have spending until April 15.
Senator Robichaud: I think it is April 15 to present all expenses, but we stop on the last day of March; am I right?
Remember that the Rules Committee was asked to look at the use of Inuktitut for the Inuit senators to use in the chamber? The suggestion was also made that it be extended to the Aboriginal Peoples Committee and the Fisheries Committee.
Senator Watt: I wonder why they excluded Legal and Constitutional Affairs?
Senator Robichaud: We have to work with what we have. It is a start, and it seems they are putting in place whatever we need for the senators to speak in the Senate. We went through the exercise on our travels up North. I would suggest that we continue to ask for that when we go to the West.
Senator Watt: The same thing will probably also apply if we bring witnesses from the North to Ottawa.
The Chair: Absolutely.
Are there any further comments? If not, I am open to a motion to adjourn.
Senator Cook: So moved.
The Chair: Moved by Senator Cook, seconded by Senator Watt. Is it agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Thank you.
(The committee adjourned.)