Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Human Rights
Issue 11 - Evidence
OTTAWA, Monday, October 5, 2009
The Standing Senate Committee on Human Rights met this day at 2:07 p.m. to examine the issue of sexual exploitation of children in Canada, with a particular emphasis on understanding the scope and prevalence of the problem of the sexual exploitation of children across the country and in particularly affected communities.
Senator A. Raynell Andreychuk (Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Chair: Honourable senators, I see a quorum and we can commence our hearing.
To start, I want to welcome to our committee a new member, Senator Demers. Welcome, and please let us know if there is anything that we can do to assist you. We have started the study and I am sure you will be able to catch up and contribute as we go along.
I also see Senator Pearson has joined us, who was deputy chair of this committee when we studied the Convention on the Rights of the Child and other issues. I thank her for being here. She is always a strong supporter of the Senate and the cause of children.
Our first panel consists of a number of individuals and organizations, whom I will first introduce in the order they are listed here: Ms. Kathleen McHugh, Chair, Women's Council, Assembly of First Nations; Ms. Kathy Vandergrift, Chair, Canadian Coalition for the Rights of Children; Ms. Sarah Hunt, who is appearing as an individual; and Ms. Erin Wolski, Health Director, Native Women's Association of Canada.
Welcome to all of you. I understand that Ms. Wolski will present first. I would ask that all of you keep your presentations brief so that we can have time for questions.
Erin Wolski, Health Director, Native Women's Association of Canada: Thank you. I am very pleased to be here today.
I am originally from Treaty 9 territory in Northern Ontario, and was born and raised in Chapleau, Ontario. I also want to acknowledge the Algonquin territory where we are currently sitting.
I thank the committee for hearing this issue and for inviting us to present. As an Aboriginal women's organization, NWAC has long promoted children's rights. We believe that our ability to protect and nurture children is a reflection on us as a society.
Our children have rights, like every other sector of the population. Children are humans too. The child-first approach established with Jordan's principle is the perspective from which all issues should be approached.
We extend our sincere thanks to Senator Dallaire, Senator Pearson and others like them for their tireless work in bringing attention to this issue. NWAC is honoured and privileged to have participated on the senator's committee for the last couple of years.
Our remarks here today are intended to achieve one goal and one goal only; that is to have an impact on each and every one of you — the type of impact that will compel you to make it your personal mission to protect our children from sexual predators.
This issue is far too important for us to make conventional, predicted remarks. There is an overwhelming amount of information available that points to the high vulnerabilities that exist among the female Aboriginal population in Canada. Also, see the fact sheet that I have distributed for your information. I encourage to you draw upon that information in your deliberations.
Right now, however, I want to tell a story. This is a true story. It is about my good friend and colleague, Donna. Donna is a proud, strong Aboriginal woman. She is an advocate for Aboriginal women and children and a successful health professional. She has managed to single-handedly raise five children. She holds tight to her traditional teachings and values and is deeply spiritual, but life was not always this rosy.
Donna grew up on reserve not far from a number of urban centres. When she was 10 years, her father was tragically killed in an automobile accident, leaving behind a young widow with six children. Soon after, out of loneliness and desperation, trying to fend for herself and her six children, Donna's mother took up a relationship with another Aboriginal man from the same community. This man had enfranchised himself many years prior to meeting Donna's mom.
This man disapproved of Donna's family participating in traditional practices and speaking Mohawk, their mother tongue. He successfully severed the ties that Donna and her family had with community, culture and support systems.
At age 11, Donna's stepfather began making nightly visits to her bedroom and molesting her as she slept. One night, Donna awoke to find her stepfather fondling her. In a state of shock, Donna was unable to move, to open her eyes or to cry out. When he finished, he left a $10 bill on her night stand.
This continued over months, and each time became more progressive. When Donna was 12, her stepfather penetrated her. He then threatened to split her vagina with a knife and kill her siblings while she watched if she told anyone. Living in fear and isolation, Donna was silenced. At 14, she ran away to a nearby aunt's home. When her mother found her, Donna broke down and told her mother everything. Rather than being supportive, Donna's mother became enraged and called her a tramp. She accused her daughter of seducing her husband into a dirty sordid affair. Donna reluctantly returned home. The abuse continued.
When she became pregnant later that year, she confided in a high school guidance councillor. Rather than supporting Donna, the councillor called her mother. Donna's mother denied everything, claiming that Donna had a vivid imagination and was making up stories out of jealousy and for attention. When Donna went to the police with her complaint, she was patronised by juvenile officers, who compared her to other girls in her community who were no more than a bunch of two-bit hookers.
Donna gave birth to her daughter alone. She tried her best to be a good mother to her little girl but had few opportunities, no resources and no family support. She was forced to place her daughter into the temporary custody of Children's Aid. She knew she could never go back home.
It was then that she decided to board a Greyhound bus and head to the city. When she arrived, she was surprised to find a number of very well-dressed men congregating at the bus depot. She was immediately targeted, enticed with flattery and promises of wealth, nice clothes, jewellery, furs and a lifestyle she had only read about in books.
In the beginning, there were shopping sprees, fine dining and entertainment. She had the luxury of wearing fur and riding around town with a well-dressed man in a Cadillac. Then the payback came. Donna did not know that her new- found lifestyle had a price. Donna was forced into prostitution to repay her debt. Initially, she was set up with established clientele and prearranged dates.
Later, however, she was turned into the streets. She was required to turn tricks in cars, back alleys, hotels and hotels rented by the hour for $20. Her quota was $300 a night. Failure to meet that quota meant that she would be beaten and have some of her privileges revoked.
One cold January night, Donna was picked up by a customer who assaulted her, beat her, robbed her and took her shoes, leaving her bloodied by the side of the road. She somehow managed to make it back, only to find her pimp angry that she had failed to make her quota that night. In desperation, she attempted suicide.
In the depths of her despair, Donna dreamt of her grandmother who came with a message, telling her that this was not the life that was for her. She remembers to this day the details of that dream. Her grandmother took her by the hand and, with water from a stream, washed her and spoke gently to her in her mother tongue. Her grandmother used words that are normally spoken to a child when he or she is first introduced to the world.
This dream was the basis of a new start for Donna. She found the courage to escape her pimp. For years after, however, she lived in fear that he might find her and kill her. Donna sought a new start in another city, where she returned to school. With her new-found strength, she even returned to her mother's home, but not to reconcile. She returned to rescue her younger sister and brother, who had both fallen prey to her pedophile stepfather.
Her attempt, however, was met with a severe beating. The incident left her with three broken ribs, a fractured skull and jaw and a broken nose. Unlike in the past when Donna went to the police, this time they listened and they charged her stepfather. He was handed a five-year suspended sentence, accompanied by a mere one-year probation. Her mother never forgave her for what she did that day.
Having overcome yet another hurdle, Donna then turned her attention to getting her daughter back. It seemed for a time that things were going well. Donna was going to school, she had her little girl with her, she was in a relationship and she finally had some hope for the future.
Committed to ensuring that her children would never live the experiences that she had, she came very protective. Her daughter, perhaps not understanding Donna's reasons, rebelled. Despite the loving and supportive family environment Donna had created for her children, her daughter began to experiment with drugs. Eventually, there would be no turning back for her daughter; she was in too deep.
Donna's biggest fears were soon realized. With a drug debt to repay, Donna's daughter was sold into a Montreal prostitution ring by her dealer. Donna went to the local police department to report her daughter missing only to be told: "She is a runaway. We see thousands of cases like this every year. If you cannot find her, it is because she does not want to be found."
Donna was once again disappointed by a system that she thought was designed to help and protect. Determined, Donna knew she would have to find her daughter on her own. She made posters and soon her daughter's face was plastered in areas across the country known for prostitution and drug activity. She sent posters to provincial police detachments and to the RCMP, and months passed without any word.
Thinking her daughter may have been taken out of the country, she contacted U.S.-Canada Bridge Commissions and Canadian Customs and Immigration, and circulated posters through those avenues. She contracted Child Find and Operation Go Home. One day, Donna received the news that she feared most: Her daughter was dead.
Donna was numb. Each day that passed felt like an eternity. Life seemed surreal. It took everything she had just to go through the motions of her day-to-day life, yet she needed to survive for her remaining children who were at home and needed her.
Several months later, Donna was shocked again when she received an anonymous call from a woman in Halifax who claimed to have seen her daughter alive. Donna did not know what to make of it. A few months later, another call came. Nearly a year and a half after being told that her daughter was dead, Donna received a phone call from her daughter. Miracles do happen. When she talks about that day, she still gets very emotional. Her daughter was alive and in Philadelphia.
Over the next four month, the calls came more often, each time from a different city or state, and they were always very brief. One day, desperate and frightened, her daughter called to say she needed to come home right away. She did not know where she was, she had no identification or money, and she was terrified.
Donna instructed her daughter to find the Native Friendship Centre in the city and asked for someone to make arrangements for her to have a safe place to sleep that night. She instructed her daughter to call her back in the morning.
That night, Donna contacted the Canadian Embassy in Manhattan. She faxed them the necessary documents to issue an emergency temporary Canadian passport for her daughter. By the time her daughter called back the next morning, Donna had made the necessary arrangements for her to return home. She was reunited with her daughter the next day.
The year and a half that her daughter was missing and presumed dead was pure hell for her. Even today, she is amazed that she survived the trauma and the grief of not knowing. Even more amazing is the fact that her daughter was alive.
The story does not stop here, though. You see, when Donna daughter came home she was pregnant.
Today, Donna is happy, her daughter is home and Donna has a grandchild. She is very determined to ensure that her family and other women and girls never have to experience this type of violence and trauma.
It is important to note, however, that there are hundreds of other stories that do not have these types of endings. I am haunted by the images of sexually-exploited children and of missing and murdered girls and women in Canada. I am driven to tears to know that Donna's story is far from unique.
Worse, even though Canada has openly condemned countries like Cambodia, Thailand or Brazil for their treatment of women and girls, and the seemingly-blind eye that is turned to the issue of sexual exploitation in those places, Canada itself seems to be turning a blind eye to what is happening in its own backyard. This is happening in every city across the country, and it is happening right here, not a few short blocks from where we are sitting.
It seems that, more often than not, the targets of this exploitation are Aboriginal girls. Girls are being forced into the sex trade; the sex trade in Canada. They are being lured by false promises and a hope for a better life. They live with threats of death and disfigurement against themselves and their family when they attempt to escape. The consumers of this industry are equally as guilty as the pimps of these amazing individuals who seek only to survive.
What we do know is that, when Aboriginal women and girls go missing, there is insufficient cooperation from authorities. We know that perpetrators, including pedophiles, pimps and Johns, do not receive sentences that fit the magnitude of the crime. We know that sex trade workers are prosecuted more often than the Johns that seek their services.
We know that those in positions of authority have been sensitized to sexual exploitation and often view those who are exploited as less worthy of rights or protection. We know the media is responsible for much of society's de- sensitization. We know that a collaborative approach that deals with root causes is the only way to address the issue of sexual exploitation. We need to break the cycle of inter-generational trauma.
We know that better support systems must be developed for children and families of these women who are victims. We know that each and every one of us here today is privileged because we are much less likely to live Donna's experience. However, we should never forget that at any given moment our circumstances could change. We, too, could be coping with this unbearable reality.
We also know that sexual exploitation does not only happen at the hands of strangers or for profit. It happens in our homes, work places and communities. It occurs at the hands of those we love and trust. No matter where it happens or why it happens, it is wrong. Perpetrators must be held accountable.
Knowing these facts, the question remains: What will go into your report that will go beyond this fact-finding exercise and move toward a meaningful change? Perhaps the answer will come to you as you spend time with the women and girls in your life.
Kathy Vandergrift, Chair, Canadian Coalition for the Rights of Children: I thank you for taking up this topic and for allowing us an opportunity to speak with you.
For the purposes of public policy, it is useful to consider the sexual exploitation of children as a spectrum of activities that extends from using sexual poses of children for the purposes of advertising to violent sexual assault — that is a wide range. As well as considering differences in the kinds of exploitation, a national strategy will address what is common to all of them across that spectrum. That is the violation of the right of children to be treated as persons of equal worth and respect. To be effective, a national strategy will address the entire spectrum in appropriate ways.
One question for this committee to ask is whether the current approach covers the spectrum and is the best use of resources. Consider the data presented to you last week. The 2003 Canadian Incidence Study of Reported Child Abuse and Neglect, reported that 86 per cent of sexual exploitation cases are committed by persons known to the child — we just heard an example of that. The RCMP reported that 5 per cent of reported cases are stranger abuse. Other reports, going back to the Badgley Royal Commission in 1984, indicate a similar finding — between 90 per cent and 95 per cent of those who exploit children are known to the children. All agreed that many cases are never reported.
However, exploitation by a stranger is more likely to be reported than abuse by someone known to the child. One can only conclude from the statistics you heard last week that the largest problem is exploitation of children by persons known to children.
If we look at the current focus in policy response and priorities for resource allocation, a large part of the allocated resources target stranger exploitation, which is around five per cent of the spectrum. This means a high percentage of resources is going to address a small percentage of the problem. While Internet sexual exploitation is important, the committee might consider whether more resources need to be allocated to other parts of the spectrum for this strategy to be effective.
The committee might also consider whether it might be more effective to allocate more resources to prevention, considering the factors that are common to all forms of sexual exploitation of children. The research shows, as we heard here, children are most often lured into exploitive situations by persons who befriend them, offering affection, enticements on the street and in the neighbourhood. The best prevention is a high level of awareness among young people. They should be knowledgeable about the methods of exploiters, confident in their own self-worth and future options, know their rights and when they are being exploited and know where and how to get help if needed. A strong focus for allocation of resources should be increased assistance to reduce the vulnerability of vulnerable groups where they live and broad-based initiatives to prevent all forms of sexual exploitation. In addition to criminal law and policing responses, there needs to be a stronger societal response to this issue.
For a moment, let us focus on the criminal law and police aspects. This allows other questions to surface. Data presented in Canada's first report on the Optional Protocol on the Sale of Children, Child Prostitution and Child Pornography indicates that 243 cases involving child pornography and prostitution came to the courts in 2007 — 243 is a low number. The report also states that in a decade from 1994-95 to 2006-07, 17,420 cases in all categories under the optional protocol were prosecuted with a conviction rate of 50 per cent.
Further analysis is needed, but the data suggests that we need to look at how existing laws are being enforced. Drafting tougher legislation may give the appearance of doing something, but it will not be effective if only a small percentage of cases are prosecuted followed by even fewer convictions.
The committee may wish to consider existing examples of good practices in order to improve in this area. For example, the Zebra Child Protection Centre in Edmonton, Alberta is a child-centred, multidisciplinary practice. It treats children who report an offence with respect and provides support for them. It works with prosecutors who specialize in working with young people. It prepares them for court to ensure that the voice of the young person is heard in court and that the young person is supported throughout the entire process. It is worth noting that the rate of conviction increased from an estimated 23 per cent to 25 per cent before this approach was adopted in 2001 to 86 per cent in 2008. This increase resulted from putting the best interests of the child first and enabling the child's right to participate — two of the basic principles of children's rights.
Sexual exploitation is a violation of the rights of children. Taking children's rights seriously is an important area for an effective prevention strategy. This is an area where the federal government can show leadership. We suggest the following.
First, use the specific provisions of the Convention on the Rights of the Child and child's rights language to demonstrate that the government does take the rights of children seriously. Unfortunately, we see an absence of any rights-based language and analysis in the first report on the optional protocol on the sexual exploitation of children. We saw an absence in Canada's report for the Universal Periodic Review. We see it in materials dealing with specific legislation in programs for children.
Second, show leadership in taking child rights seriously. In relation to the specific issue of sexual exploitation, the government could take seriously recommendations it received from the Committee on the Rights of the Child in the second review of Canada's implementation of the convention in 2003. To quote:
The Committee recommends that the State party further increase the protection and assistance provided to victims of sexual exploitation and trafficking, including prevention measures, social reintegration, access to health care and psychological assistance, in a culturally appropriate and coordinated manner, including by enhancing cooperation with non-governmental organizations and countries of origin.
The focus of this recommendation in 2003 is on societal response and prevention. What has been done in response? There are no public reports. We have asked for and have been denied information. This could form a good starting place for this committee. Implementation of this recommendation received over five years ago would be a good start toward a more effective strategy to prevent sexual exploitation.
On a broader level, the government response to your committee's excellent three-year study on children's rights was inadequate and there has not been any further follow-up. The message sent to young people in Canada is that their rights do not matter very much to their political leaders. As a 16-year-old girl said in one of our forums, "Children are people too. Why don't our rights matter as much as adults'?
Third, Canada's third report on implementation of the convention is now nine months overdue. There has been no input from young people and no consultation with those who work with children in preparing the report as required under state obligations in the convention itself. If we are to develop a society that values and protects children, it is imperative that our government set the standard by fully implementing the convention and publicly responding to the 45 recommendations received in the second review.
Fourth, focus on the whole child with respect for children as persons and active agents rather than as passive recipients and objects of criminal investigations. The first report on the optional protocol for sexual exploitation includes a list of eight different federal-provincial committees that focus on small pieces of the lives of children, each composed of junior officials with limited authority. These committees have no engagement with the young people whose rights they are supposed to be protecting; no role for the community, which plays an important role in protecting the rights of children; and no public accountability, which is the essence of the rights-based approach. At the same time, there is no mechanism in Canada for hearing from and responding to young people or for public accountability to young people about how their rights are being respected.
Again, to prevent sexual and all forms of child exploitation, the federal government needs to model respect for young people and actively foster a societal culture of respect and protection for their rights as persons of equal dignity.
Fifth, engage in dialogue with cultural and religious leaders about the rights of children and sexual exploitation. One of the recommendations that emerged from our national conference on the best interests of the child was for the federal government to engage in dialogue about the interface of children's rights with cultural practices and religious beliefs. Some committee members received copies from me in the mail, and I have copies for any who did not receive a copy.
We heard anecdotal evidence of early marriage and forced marriage in Canada under the cover of cultural tradition and freedom of religion. Young girls are transported across borders for purposes of forced marriage and for prostitution under the cover of domestic labour or the hospitality industry. Many times, they are immigrants in these positions who are isolated, not knowing where or how to turn for help.
The religious freedom of adults is important, but they cannot be realized at the expense of the rights and best interests of children. The federal government must not continue to turn a blind eye to the exploitation of young people in the name of cultural diversity or religious freedom. An appropriate response includes broad-based education on children's rights and dialogue on how they can be respected within those different cultural traditions we have in Canada.
In summary, we suggest that the committee focus on an effective prevention strategy for all forms of sexual exploitation, using an integrated, rights-based approach that puts children at the very centre. We submit that this would provide a better return for the dollars invested than would a narrow focus on increased criminal penalties for specific, isolated crimes in only one category of sexual exploitation. More attention to the enforcement of existing laws in ways that respect, involve and support young people would also improve the low rate of success in prosecutions. The federal government needs to show active leadership in respect of the rights of children by taking seriously implementation of the convention in Canada and by actively fostering a social climate that understands and respects young people as persons with dignity and as equal participants in building our society.
The Chair: Ms. Hunt, please proceed.
Sarah Hunt, as an individual: Good afternoon. Thank you for allowing me to appear before the committee today. I am from Victoria, B.C.
[The witness spoke in her native language, Kwakwa'la.]
I have been working on the issue of child and youth sexual exploitation for the past ten years in B.C., primarily as a consultant doing community-based research in communities across the province. I have also been involved in program coordination and the creation of educational tools for service providers and youth, with a particular focus on the issues facing Aboriginal communities. Much of my work has been supported by the Assistant Deputy Minister's Committee on Prostitution and Sexual Exploitation, which has representation from about 10 B.C. ministries as well as the National Crime Prevention Centre. Some of the groups I have worked with include Victim Services and Crime Prevention Division, McCreary Centre Society, and the Justice Institute of B.C.
Today, I will focus on the sexual exploitation of children and youth in rural and isolated communities. My comments will echo much of what Ms. Wolski said earlier.
The issues in rural areas are often overlooked because many resources and attention are given to the more visible forms of sexual exploitation concentrated in urban centres, such as Vancouver. With the large influx of Aboriginal people to urban areas, issues facing children and youth in rural communities are often out of sight and out of mind, despite the fact that many sexually exploited youth in cities originate in rural areas. In order to prevent the sexual exploitation of Aboriginal children and youth, it is not enough simply to create programs in cities like Vancouver. Instead, we must address the situation in rural areas as well.
In thinking about the various forms of sexual exploitation, it is useful to imagine a continuum of visibility with street-level sex trade or commercial sexual exploitation at one end and the more hidden, less-acknowledged forms at the other. These more hidden forms of sexual exploitation are prevalent in rural and isolated communities, where the exploitation is too often normalized, along with other forms of abuse and violence emerging from cycles of intergenerational abuse. The common belief in many smaller communities is that sexual exploitation does not happen there but, of course, there are no visible strolls in such communities like there are in urban centres so it is deemed to not be a problem. In fact, when we look beyond street-level sexual exploitation, we know that Aboriginal children and youth are being exploited in rural communities in a number of ways.
Some of the common forms of exploitation include youth trading sexual acts for transportation, for alcohol and drugs, or for clothing and shelter. It also includes relationships between older men — in their 30s, 40s or older — who date girls in their teens. These men give the girls clothing, jewellery, MP3 players and other gifts. These relationships might be normalized and possibly even condoned by the youth's parents and other family members. Youth commonly talk about partying with adults who will give them free drugs or alcohol in exchange for sex. The adults might include their relatives and others whom they have known their whole lives. Youth in these situations often do not see themselves as being exploited, in particular when people around them know it is happening but do nothing.
Some communities have seen Aboriginal girls being targeted for recruitment into more visible commercial sexual exploitation by recruiters who drive around rural areas, stop to talk to girls who are walking home from school or into town, and offer them a ride or take them partying. Additionally, some northern and rural communities have had an influx of seasonal workers because of developments such as highway expansions, natural resource exploration and the creation of new ports. This activity has been linked to an increase in child and youth sexual exploitation by perpetrators from outside the communities.
Physical violence is often closely associated with sexual exploitation, in particular when drugs and alcohol are involved. In research that I conducted with my colleague, Natalie Clark, several years ago, participants told us that they could tell when crystal meth had arrived in their community because violence levels skyrocketed, and youth were more vulnerable to exploitation because of the desperation created by the drug.
Drugs are also used as recruiting tools to involve youth in more formal commercial sexual exploitation as they become hooked on drugs and need a quick way to make money to find more drugs. This might bring the youth from a smaller community into a town or city where commercial sexual exploitation is facilitated by recruiters or organized crime.
The increasing use of the Internet in rural areas has made Aboriginal children and youth more vulnerable to online exploitation or exploitation that is facilitated by technology. Although easier Internet access has had a positive effect on educational opportunities for children and youth, it has put them at increased risk because predators have easy access to them online. Some common stories include youth meeting boyfriends on line who offer to send them bus or airplane tickets so they can meet in person. This activity could be linked to trafficking if they lure them to another town or city and then force them into the sex trade, for example. They might convince them to email photos of themselves naked, or a friend, which is a form of child pornography.
In the past few years at the national and provincial levels, there has been a great deal of talk about linking sexual exploitation with the trafficking of Aboriginal children and youth. While we need to explore that link further, we should be cautious about equating the two. We need more community-based research and more stories to gather information about the trafficking of Aboriginal children and youth before we can truly know the scope of the problem and the link to sexual exploitation.
Of course, girls and young women are hugely overrepresented as victims of sexual exploitation, but a significant number of boys are exploited as well. The sexual exploitation of Aboriginal boys and young men continues to carry a greater stigma and shame, resulting in even less acknowledgement of the abuse they face. Little has been done to look into the sexual exploitation of Aboriginal boys. This silence has devastating consequences as there are virtually no resources dedicated to this issue, at least none that I know about.
On rural reserves, power and politics play out in ways that help to maintain the silence around the exploitation of both girls and boys, as well as other forms of abuse. Offenders are often known in the community as abusers, but no one puts a stop to it. I have heard many stories of people in positions of power protecting offenders who are related to them or punishing those who try to speak out. This culture of normalized violence and intergenerational trauma only serves to perpetuate the cycles of abuse, including sexual exploitation.
When offenders are from outside the community, there is a greater chance that people will report the offences against them or will be able to identify it as exploitation.
Over the past ten years, I have talked to many Aboriginal youth and their adult supports across B.C. about trying to address child and youth sexual exploitation. Some common things have come up when asked what they need. Primarily, they want their basic needs met, with transportation and housing at the top of the list. The lack of those things put them in a very vulnerable place in terms of exploitation.
They need the long history of trauma and intergenerational abuse to be acknowledged by Aboriginal leaders in a real way and for the culture of silence to end.
They also need healthy role models, adults who will support positive choices and whom they can turn to if they are abused or sexually exploited. The reality is that most Aboriginal children or youth will not report exploitation to the police or a victim service worker. They will tell someone they already know and trust. These healthy adult role models are key. The statistics we heard are important, but the reality is that most of the incidents are not being reported and not even being named as exploitation.
In closing, I would like to say that child and youth sexual exploitation in rural and isolated communities, where about half of the Aboriginal population still lives, gets less attention, less acknowledgement and less resources than in urban areas. More research is needed to get a sense of the scope of the issue, and, of course, increased resources are needed at the levels of education, prevention, intervention and healing. Most urgent in my mind is changing the culture of normalized violence which allows the exploitation to continue.
The Chair: Thank you, Ms. Hunt. Our final panellist is Ms. Kathleen McHugh. I should say that while you were listed first, you had asked to be put at the foot of the list while you were waiting for some statistics or reports, so now is your chance.
Kathleen McHugh, Chair, Women's Council, Assembly of First Nations: Thank you very much.
[The witness spoke in her native language, Blackfoot.]
Good afternoon; I bring you greetings in my Blackfoot language. I am a member of the Blackfoot confederacy in southern Alberta.
In my opening statement, I want to acknowledge the people we are here for: our children, our precious gifts from the creator. We are here today to address a serious issue, and I acknowledge the presenters who have gone before me.
I would like to thank the Standing Senate Committee on Human Rights for its ongoing diligence and determination in addressing the issue of commercial sexual exploitation of indigenous children and youth.
National Chief Shawn Atleo extends his greetings and reminds the committee that improving outcomes for children, women and families is a priority at the Assembly of First Nations. As you know, the AFN is the national organization representing First Nation citizens across Canada on and off reserve. The AFN Women's Council, which I chair, ensures the concerns and perspectives of First Nations women inform all work at the AFN.
It has been acknowledged by this committee that indigenous children and youth are especially vulnerable to sexual abuse and exploitation. For the purpose of today's discussion, the AFN would like to present three actions that must be taken if we are to seriously begin addressing the scope and prevalence of this issue. Incorporating these three actions into a national strategy will help us move closer to our common goal of protecting our children.
First, in order to design effective and responsive policy, programs and services, accurate and informed research is required. The AFN strongly suspects that the numbers of First Nations children and youth who are sexually abused and exploited are underreported. The AFN has appeared before this committee to discuss this issue on previous occasions. Unfortunately, the situation regarding the absence of critical data has not changed. We cannot hope to build truly effective and responsive programs without a full and accurate picture of the issue involved. For example, there is a need for research to determine if First Nations children with disabilities or conditions like fetal alcohol spectrum disorder are more vulnerable to abuse or exploitation. I have done work with the mainstream population on the issue of children and disabilities, and there are statistics that address this issue. However, for First Nations children, the data is missing.
Small scale but important studies have highlighted some other complexities. For example, Dr. Susan McIntyre's report demonstrates that indigenous boys and girls cope with sexual abuse differently. They express their frustration in different ways and they enter and exit the trade for different reasons. In addition, it was found that it is more difficult for boys than girls to overcome the stigma of sexual exploitation. Studies like McIntyre's demonstrate the need for a culturally relevant, gender-balanced lens in analyzing data and program development.
The AFN Renewal Commission report and charter recognized the need to restore the historic equality that existed between First Nations men and women prior to colonization. This is a guiding factor in all our work, and to reinforce this principle, the chiefs in assembly have passed a resolution formally endorsing a culturally relevant, gender-balanced approach.
On the first note, the need for data collection, the AFN recommends First Nations-specific data collection, monitoring and evaluation specific to sexual abuse and exploitation. It should be informed by a culturally-relevant and gender-balanced lens. It is also critical that research is carefully planned to ensure it does not re-victimize. Finally, research must include the voices of experiential indigenous youth to provide context to data.
The second point I wish to make today is that once data is collected and understood, communities must have the capacity for prevention to support those who are attempting to exit sexual exploitation and for healing. Programs must also address the needs of everyone involved, including the abuser or perpetrator.
Finally, the third point I wish to make is the need for long-term strategies that involve partnerships between all levels of government. As part of a long-term strategy, disparities in key social determinants must be addressed: gaps in education, poverty, poor housing and a lack of access to social supports and other basic services. Government can and should choose to address the funding inequities in existing key social programs, provide enhanced programs for the continuum of First Nations child and youth programs. Doing so would be an important preventative measure for sexual exploitation. However, it is not the only measure that is needed. It will not completely address the complexity around the issue of sexual abuse and the sexual exploitation of our children and youth.
As an example, I would like to speak about the issue of child welfare. Currently, First Nations child welfare agencies receive, on average, 22 per cent less funding than provincial agencies. That has resulted in a two-tiered child welfare system where First Nations children on reserves receive less funding and services than other children. Reports documenting inequalities in First Nations child welfare funding and services include the Auditor General's May 2008 report, and a 2009 report by Parliament's Standing Committee on Public Accounts.
Closing the gap would certainly improve outcomes of children in state care. However, creating a level playing field is not enough because studies show provincial agencies are struggling with issues concerning sexual abuse of children in care, some of whom enter the sex trade after leaving state care.
I point to the 2009 report of Saskatchewan's children's advocate, Marvin Bernstein, entitled A Breach of Trust: An Investigation Into Foster Home Overcrowding in the Saskatoon Service Centre, which found that children have been placed into overcrowded foster homes without a review of the assessed capacity of the home or foster parents to safely accommodate or care for more children. This included issues of supervision and incidents of abuse or violence between foster children.
According to the study, more than 62 per cent of the children living in overcrowded homes are status and non-status First Nations children. I would add that, according to a 2004 report by Justice Canada called: A One-Day Snapshot of Aboriginal Youth in Custody Across Canada: Phase II, 40 per cent of First Nations youth are either wards of the state at the time of conviction or have active files with a child welfare agency, and this includes youth engaged in the sex trade. This is one example that shows the need for equity in funding and also the additional need to ensure exiting programs are expanded to address abuse and exploitation.
Unlike the measures required to address the incidence of neglect and poverty, the measures required to address sexual abuse and exploitation require a greater knowledge and understanding, which is not yet available.
A companion report to the United Nations Secretary-General's study on violence against women, Indigenous Women Stand Against Violence, found that for indigenous women, gender-based violence is shaped not only by gender discrimination within indigenous and non-indigenous arenas but also by a context of ongoing colonization, militarism, racism, social exclusion and poverty inducing economic and development policies.
To be effective, any national strategy must be informed by the historical realities of First Nations populations, including colonization. For example, I point to concerns raised recently by Justice Murray Sinclair, Chair of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, who spoke about the lack of mechanisms available to deal with disclosures of abuse that occurred between students while attending residential schools.
The AFN is working with communities to try to address the profound need for healing of both the victims and the abusers.
Knowledge and analysis with regard to the complexity of sexual abuse and the relationship between residential schools, historical intergenerational trauma and sexual abuse is required. Our proposals to the Status of Women Canada, Women's Wisdom and Well-being, Walking the Way of our Ancestors, to the Partnership Fund and Community Fund were declined. This proposal examined the relationship between sexual abuse and the residential school experience.
To summarize, there is a need for a First Nation-specific research plan that supports culturally relevant gender- balanced methodologies and is careful not to revictimize those we are seeking to help.
Second, communities must have the capacity for prevention to support those who are attempting to exit sexual exploitation and to assist in healing both the victim and the abuser.
Finally, there is a need to take immediate steps to close funding gaps in education, housing and child welfare to make First Nations children less vulnerable to exploitation and abuse. However, this will not address the full extent of the problem. There is a need to develop additional programs to specifically address sexual exploitation and abuse.
Yes, our children are special gifts from the Creator and must be protected.
I would like to thank the Standing Senate Committee on Human Rights for this opportunity to speak. I would welcome questions. Marie Frawley-Henry and Jonathan Thompson from the Assembly of First Nations are here to assist me in answering any questions today.
The Chair: Thank you, Ms. McHugh.
Senator Jaffer: I want to thank all of you for being here.
It came up last week as well that 80 to 90 per cent of abused children know their abuser. Ms. Vandergrift suggested that we must consider putting more resources into this area. She mentioned a program in Edmonton.
I would be interested to hear from any of you on what else we could do. Obviously, reporting is a lot less because people know their abuser. Also, as you said, Ms. Hunt, in rural areas there are even fewer services.
What could we recommend in that regard?
Ms. Hunt: I am currently concluding a project that was funded by the ADM's Committee on Prostitution and Sexual Exploitation to create a tool kit or manual for people who are working to support youth in rural Aboriginal communities. Many people in those communities have said they might be the only person speaking up about this issue, and they are very isolated. If cases come forward, there are no resources to protect the children and their families. They may be run out of the community, not have adequate housing or face further violence, so it becomes further silenced in the community.
The goal is to build the capacity of the communities on a local level. That means putting in place all the resources needed for reporting to be adequately responded to. If you raise awareness and give youth the language to name the exploitation, they may start telling, but there are no safety plans in place such as safe housing and ways to support the service providers themselves. In a small community of 300, for example, where there is only one youth worker, that person might themselves be targeted.
We need a broad-based approach to build capacity. It is effective to have links between people doing that work in small communities so that they can call on each other. The biggest challenge is overcoming what is often normalized because it happened to your auntie, or your mother or brother or sister, and perhaps it is the same offender or group of offenders in the community, the perception that it is just life. I have interviewed youth who have said that they did not bother telling anybody because it is not a big deal, that is just what happens.
Ms. Wolski: I do not understand why, when children are abused, they are removed from the home. Why do we not remove the abuser from the home? It sounds simple to me.
Ms. Vandergrift: I would highlight the need for some broader based strategies to make children aware of their rights and know how to exercise them. We know that in the country, still, 70 per cent of the children are not aware. Until we change that culture around young people, the most vulnerable find themselves isolated.
For clarification, the program in Edmonton was specifically to improve what happens after the abuse is reported and before the offender is convicted. We spend a lot of money on the criminalization side, we toughen the laws, and we have a few cases going and only 50 per cent conviction. I believe you need to shift to the other end of the agenda, which is broad-based, but if you are going to do that piece then look at a program like that one that is based on the rights of children and does an excellent job. Then you get a better conviction rate. For me, it is how we use our resources more effectively across that spectrum.
In the reports that Canada submits there is a little program here, a little program there and a little program there. We will not get at this with one little program. We need something that really raises this agenda much higher.
Ms. McHugh: I am thinking of the smaller communities, especially on reserves where our children are victimized. In some cases, when the case actually does go through the whole court process, which takes a long time, the community hears of this and often the victim is further victimized through humiliation by peers and people in the community. There are no resources to assist the victim through this process. That is a reality in our smaller communities. Therefore we need additional funding to address this.
Senator Jaffer: I have a very sensitive question. If I do not ask it the right way, it is because I am lacking the knowledge to formulate it.
I come from British Columbia, Vancouver, and we will have the Olympic Games in Vancouver. A lot of resources are being spent to stop — and that is a good thing — women being trafficked from outside of British Columbia and Canada into our province. Once a month I talk at night on the streets, and I am really disturbed to see that there are more and more very young Aboriginal women on the streets of Vancouver. I do not have any statistics because I do not have those kinds of resources, but just from what I am observing and the number I am observing. Are any of you working on the issue with the games and sexual exploitation of our young girls?
Ms. Hunt: I know work is being done that has been going on in Vancouver for a long time. The challenge comes with the money that has gone into a few First Nations communities that are partnering to build a youth centre or fund cultural events in the many small communities along that corridor where the games are being held, as well as leading up to the event. I do not think they are at risk just during the games, but have been so for years with the influx of workers to expand the roads and create new facilities there. A lot of small communities, and they are very spread out, have been reporting high incidents of sexual assault or sexual exploitation, or other forms of violence against children and youth, and they have not benefitted financially from the games at all. They are still in the same position they were in before but their risk has increased.
I know there are resources concentrated in Vancouver, but elements of the prevention piece are missing. For example, with hitchhiking, despite the fact that people know the risks, there is no other way to get around. People cannot afford to take the Greyhound bus or whatever. With regard to that prevention piece, I do not think increased resources have been put into place.
Senator Jaffer: I have one question for Ms. Vandergrift. I am doing a lot of work on forced marriages and cultural issues. If you have any statistics or anything further than what you stated, would you provide that to the clerk for us to study?
Ms. Vandergrift: Right now there are not a lot of statistics but the anecdotal evidence is there in young women when they participate and talk about it. That is why we suggested in the report that we need to have a dialogue about this, and come to some understandings about how rights of children can be protected in these situations.
We would have liked to have seen the situation in Bountiful also looked at more closely in terms of the exploitation of young girls. Polygamy is one lens through which to look at it, but you can also look at what is going on in the exploitation of girls there and I think it would actually be more productive.
Senator Poy: I have a follow-up question to what Senator Jaffer had asked. I believe Ms. Vandergrift said that 95 per cent of the sexual exploitation is not reported; usually it is just 5 per cent. Am I correct?
Ms. Vandergrift: For clarification, what was said last week is that 5 per cent involves strangers, and most reports, whether it is 86 or 90, 95, are by people who are known to children. That is the difference I was making.
Senator Poy: I am sure many of us have heard on the news, again and again, that much of the exploitation is by people within the family. In Ms. Wolski's story the girl told her mother and the mother accused her. We hear that again and again. How do we prevent that? To me it is the mother's fault. How do we get grown women to take responsibility for protecting their children?
Ms. Wolski: To a large degree the intergenerational trauma issue speaks to that. It is alluded to in Donna's story that perhaps her mother was abused.
Senator Poy: Therefore she accepted it as part of life.
Ms. Wolski: Yes, and so the cycle continues.
Senator Poy: I believe that is the root of a lot of the problems. How can we as parliamentarians help in a case like that? Is there an answer from any one of you?
Ms. Vandergrift: That is why I highlighted what is a little step removed from the immediacy of the problem, but I think we need some political leadership around the rights of children in this country, at all levels. When that is done at all levels people become equipped to step forward.
We need that in a broader way, and it will also impact in terms of sexual exploitation and also broad-based public education. We know that when we go into communities and engage with young people and their parents, to educate and to discuss the rights of children, it has a positive impact in the community. However, there is very little of that being done on a systematic basis. The literature is now becoming clearer about the benefits of rights-based programs in schools.
The U.K. has been tracking schools for three years now and they find the levels of violence are greatly reduced. They find the respect for teachers has increased. They find the learning higher. Yet we have one or two schools in Canada that are doing this. That is why I keep saying we need to take this also at a broader level. The penalties can be increased, but the dynamic will not change until we begin to take the rights of children seriously in this country.
The Chair: Senator Demers, do you have a supplementary question?
Senator Demers: I wanted to add something here. I hope I am not out of line because it is my first day here.
Your presentation was unbelievable. I was an abused child and I overcame. What Ms. Wolski said about mothers reminded me that if my mom defended me, she would get more than what she got the night before.
I overcame adversity, became an NHL coach and I am finishing a career in broadcasting. Someone sent me here. I really believe that. I admire all people who are here fighting for the right cause. I get emotional because it stays with you for the rest of your life. I am 65 and I still live with nightmares. It is difficult to see these wonderful people.
I will fight every bit for this cause. We cannot listen to you, leave here and not fight for it. I have some tremendous friends here who will fight for you. I think I was sent here. I was retiring and I have become a senator. I never asked for it. I will try to be a great senator, but I am so happy to be here. I will fight for your cause because many of the things you said, I lived that and had nowhere to go.
If I went to an uncle he would defend my father: No, no, it is not true, and that kind of thing. I am happy to see that people here will fight for you. Are we going to get everything accomplished? I do not know, but we will fight for it. I happen to have a big name in Canada, as do other people here. We will fight for this cause in a proper, respectful manner.
Thank you so much.
The Chair: Thank you. I am not sure that was a supplementary question, but it was helpful.
Senator Poy: Ms. Wolski, you did mention that the perpetrators should be the ones who are punished. I have often wondered why the johns are not arrested and punished. In the sex trade it is the prostitutes who are usually arrested, not the johns. The johns and the pimps should be the ones to pay the price. If you stop the demand, then there is no supply in the sex trade. Can you comment on that?
Ms. Wolski: I have an excellent example of how that is working in Sweden. Right now, Sweden's strategy in dealing with prostitution is an example of legislation that experts agree actually works. Prostitution is regarded as an aspect of male violence against women and children. Basically the goal is to criminalize the demand side of the equation. Rather than putting emotionally and physically imperilled women behind bars, the johns are put behind bars and the woman are offered rehabilitation and exit strategies.
That is a complete flip to what Canada is doing right now. There is much to be learned from other countries that are much more successful at this.
Ms. Vandergrift: To get the conviction you need the testimony. That is why I highlighted this centre in Edmonton. Unless you help the young people — we are talking here about prostitution of youth — and support them through that process, you do not get the testimony to get the conviction. That is where I found this centre an interesting, good practice, and they have shown they can do it.
Ms. Hunt: I think we need to be careful around the language about johns so that when talking about children we do not see them as prostitutes. I am thinking about making sure we differentiate between the rights of the child and adult rights.
Also, some of you may remember the Judge Ramsay case in Prince George where he was found guilty of sexually exploiting a number of Aboriginal girls as young as 13. The only way that case even came to court was through the relationships that were built between police, victim services, outreach workers and people working directly with youth. There were rumours about it in the community for a long time. As you say, you need the statement.
It took years of building a relationship with the young girls to get one of them to willingly make an official statement to police, because they were afraid of the police. They themselves were being criminalized for buying drugs or standing on the street corner or whatever.
I think relationship-building and partnerships — with officials, justice officials and other people working in the community — are important because, as I said before, youth will not go running to the police when something happens. Even if they are really beaten and afraid they will die or whatever, it takes something very extreme for them to go to the police. That is really a critical part of it as well.
Senator Nancy Ruth: Ms. Wolski, are there other countries besides Sweden that have such a law that you are aware of?
Ms. Wolski: I am not sure, to be honest.
Senator Nancy Ruth: If you hear about them, will you let us know?
Ms. Wolski: Yes.
Senator Nancy Ruth: My general question is around the request for more research. There is lots of anecdotal evidence. There are lots of people who do not report, according to your testimony. What is this research that you want for? How will it change any government's actions?
You have asked for an integrated strategy, you have asked for more money provincially and you have asked for better reporting. You have asked for a whole bunch of stuff. What more evidence — data, as in research — do you need to make any of this happen? What is this research?
Ms. Hunt: I do not think we need more research. It is for the people who would give funding to understand the scope of the problems. When you have research you have more of a leg to stand on.
Senator Nancy Ruth: It is to legitimize what you already know, so you will skew the data?
Ms. Hunt: No.
Ms. Vandergrift: We did not call for more research. You have a long bibliography of research that I think your committee is working on.
The one area of increase in research might be where you actually do hear young people more directly. I highlighted the recommendations Canada received in 2003 from the committee after they received reports, because they do say there are some things we should be doing. I would be really sad if this committee just calls for more research and does not start acting on what we do know. This is very much an evolving field.
Senator Nancy Ruth: Ms. McHugh, the AFN was calling for more research; what kind and what for?
Ms. McHugh: The reason for our request for research is that while data are available about mainstream society, our First Nations communities do not have the funding to do the research. As we know, in order to access funding or to submit proposals we must have the data to support our requests. We do not have that in many of our cases, especially when it comes to sexual exploitation of our children.
We do need the research. We have solutions such as the culturally relevant, gender-balanced analysis that I referred to in my presentation. We have been working on solutions that we can use in our community presentations, but we do need the research to get some sense of the numbers we are actually working with.
Senator Nancy Ruth: I will ask the question in another way. There have been lots of royal commissions on all kinds of things, most of which do not always get implemented; I will say it that way.
Have you any evidence that presenting government with more research changes programming, changes the law?
Senator Mitchell: Depends on the government.
Senator Nancy Ruth: Let them answer, Senator Mitchell.
Have you ever seen it before? Has it ever worked?
Ms. Wolski: There are a number of files that we work on at the Native Women's Association of Canada, and suicide is another one. We ask that question. You want more numbers; you want numbers to be able to do something about the issue. How much is enough? How many suicides is enough? Is one enough? Is a hundred enough? When do we reach a point where we can actually say that is enough; let us move to action.
A really frustrating part of what we do is trying to provide information that the government needs: Give us the picture, help us understand how big this issue is, give us the numbers. It is all around numbers.
I would like to suggest that we do some research in Canada with regard to Canada being a source country. From an Aboriginal women's perspective, we are not looking at this issue to say that Aboriginal women are being targeted in this country for sexual exploitation. We are a source country for sexual exploitation and human trafficking. I have been at many meetings with different government departments and have heard that, no, we are not a source country; we are a transit and destination country. We need to do the research. Until you do the research there is no need.
They need the numbers, and they will not do the research until they have the numbers. It is the chicken and the egg. We do need the numbers.
Ms. Hunt: There are many ways of going about doing research. As a community-based researcher, there are ways of doing research that helps to build capacity in communities.
In B.C., there are many small Aboriginal communities spread out that are not collecting information in a consistent way. In order to get a sense of the actual scope of the problem and build capacity in those communities, they need to report and capture the same information consistently. That kind of research is community-based and helpful to those communities to get a sense of how best to deliver programs to youth. It is not just numbers for the sake of having numbers but to use the data for capacity building at the community level as well.
Marie Frawley-Henry, Women's Issues Specialist/Senior Policy Analyst, Assembly of First Nations: Good afternoon. I work with the Assembly of First Nations and Kathy McHugh with the Women's Council. I would also like to reiterate the importance of research, and that speaks to the gender balanced analysis framework that we spoke of earlier. In particular, this is a process of re-establishing the history of our traditional roles and responsibilities; men, women, girls and boys. This particular lens is a culturally relevant, gender balanced analysis framework that looks at impacts of programs, policies and legislation on men, women, girls, boys and those along the gender continuum. That is also a source of our culturally relevant research and "re-remembering" approaches as well. That is very critical at this time.
As you know, gender equality is not working in the world, and a culturally relevant DBA lens is very much key to restoring that equality. We would love to share that framework with you as well. It will be ready in November with French translation.
Senator Brazeau: I heard several of you talk about the government turning a blind eye to this issue, and we are here to talk about the sexual exploitation of children in Canada. It is a cliché that we could always say that governments need to do more, and perhaps that is right. However, I would like to hear your views with respect to bold and concrete steps that the government has taken in the last three years, in particular with respect to passing legislation under Bill C- 21, providing human rights for First Nations citizens and, in particular, the protection of human rights for women and children as they are the most susceptible to discrimination in the community and outside of those communities.
There is also Bill C-268, the human trafficking legislation that was introduced by Joy Smith in the other house, which protects women and their children in cases of human trafficking and imposes minimum sentences of five years for those convicted of human trafficking. Again, it is another level of protection for Aboriginal children and women in this country.
There is also the issue of matrimonial real property rights, for which there is draft legislation in the works, again to protect women and their children specifically in the case of marriage breakdown, another important issue that affects Aboriginal women.
I can safely say that a lot of Aboriginal women, especially on the issue of MRP and human trafficking, who have spoken with Joy Smith, member of Parliament, support that undertaking and matrimonial real property rights legislation. I would like to hear your views on these three concrete examples that this government has put in place towards the greater protection of Aboriginal women and their children. Does the legislation go far enough? If it does not, then what needs to be done to compensate for the lack, if there is one?
Ms. McHugh: Thank you for the question. With respect to the different pieces of legislation you have brought to the table, it is one thing to bring legislation and it is another thing to implement it. If we do not have the resources to implement these new acts, then it is very difficult for us to be able to address the serious issues, especially the one that we are here for today.
With respect to the protection of Aboriginal women and children, we have to do much more than the legislation that you have addressed accomplishes. We have to go back to the presentation I made on the culturally relevant, gender balance analysis. We have to go back in our history and teach our young the roles and the values that we had equally between men and women, to take that step backwards in order to teach our young, because we were negatively impacted through colonization. It has been generations, yet we are still mending as a result of those foreign policies that were imposed upon us. These new acts have recently been introduced, and it will take resources to implement them in our communities. We must review them with the Assembly of First Nations.
Ms. Wolski: I would like to make one comment with regard to the legislation. It is wonderful that we have legislation, but we need action. There is a big difference between legislation and action.
Ms. Vandergrift: I am not Aboriginal, so I wanted to defer to the other witnesses. I was speaking particularly to the minimum sentence in trafficking, with my concern about the number of cases that are actually brought and the prosecution success rate being only 50 per cent.
Last week, you were told there are 21 charges now for domestic trafficking. These are charges, and a lesser number will be prosecuted through the courts. Then if only 50 per cent of those result in a conviction, we have not touched a lot of cases. That is why we are pleading for something that is broader based. Does that help you understand?
I was personally quite shocked to read there were only 243 cases in 2007 under the broad category of pornography and prostitution. We are not prosecuting very much, and then we are only getting low conviction rates. How much good does it do to increase the penalty?
Ms. Hunt: I would echo that. The legislation is an important piece. I think changing the age of consent to 16 is a good move. Those things are all important, but I think that at the community level, under-reporting is a huge issue, so it will not even get to the justice system. Also, I can think of a lot of cases where people come forward, become intimidated and do not testify or continue with the legal process. Charges are dropped for whatever reason, so they do not make it as far as getting a conviction. It does not matter what the minimum sentence is; it is not getting to that point.
Senator Brazeau: Would a role for you, as advocates, be to work with the different levels of police across the country and to engage so that the number of reported incidents decreases and people feel comfortable in reporting those incidents?
Ms. Hunt: One of the challenges in rural areas is that police are only positioned there for a year or two and then they move somewhere else. They get new recruits, they start building relationships, they move on and you have to start the education process all over again.
There is Aboriginal policing as well, which is doing some good work on reserve. However, that relationship-building piece, because of the way it works structurally, does not have as big an impact as it could.
Senator Brazeau: Collectively, we have to start somewhere.
Ms. Hunt: Yes.
Ms. Wolski: You cannot overlook the historical relationship that Aboriginal people have with authority figures. That plays heavily into them feeling comfortable enough to go to an authority figure and to testify what is happening at home perhaps. We all know very well that the relationship goes back many centuries. A relationship has been developed there with authorities that are put in our communities.
Senator Dallaire: There was a report, Sacred Lives: Canadian Aboriginal Children and Youth Speak Out About Sexual Exploitation, in the year 2000. Your reports indicate that we are in worse shape than we were in 2000.
I find it interesting that we used the term "common characteristics are Aboriginal children involved in prostitution." It seems to me it makes no sense that we talk about children involved in prostitution. To me, children are being raped.
Ms. Wolski: Exactly, yes.
Senator Dallaire: They are not into prostitution.
There is something that I would like you to comment on. We also have noticed — and there is a new task force in Manitoba — that a lot of Aboriginal women are going missing, with not necessarily effective results when it comes to finding them, or finding them too late at times.
Would it be right to say that if their moms or other women are missing, being abused and so on, that in itself has a major impact on the girls inasmuch as they are saying, "Hey, what is there already is not being taken care of. Why should I even expect something better for me?"
If that is the case, do you not feel that there is a two-tier system for applying Amber Alerts and these kinds of things for Aboriginal children versus non-Aboriginal children in the country?
Ms. Hunt: In B.C, as you know, we have the Highway of Tears along Highway 16. A lot of the language is about Aboriginal women going missing there, but they are girls. Some of them are above the age of 18, but most of the ones who have been reported as missing are youth. We talk about women, but they are girls.
There is a great film by Christine Welsh, called Finding Dawn, which is about women who have gone missing. In that case, in the Prince George area, it was a year after the young woman went missing before they put her on the official list and started searching for her.
I have heard from those communities along the highway that we have to be careful about linking sexual exploitation with the missing girls and women, in that some of them may have been exploited but some of them were also murdered and their bodies found just down the road.
Senator Dallaire: If the federal government has a specific relationship with the Aboriginal people and the solutions are caught up between federal and provincial services and programs, can you think of a way that we could hold the federal government more accountable for bringing in "innovative" solutions to these cross-sectoral, cross-mandated divides that are not meeting the spectrum but merely creating gaps where kids are falling through? Are there innovative ideas coming forward from your side that could help us?
Ms. Vandergrift says a rights-based response is essential. Do you think we have to create legislation in this country to do that? We are signing treaties, but I do not think we are implementing them. Would a commissioner of child rights be an effective instrument to start moving, if not legislation, at least toward oversight?
Ms. Hunt: I will just briefly respond to the first question.
In B.C. right now, we are facing funding freezes basically. One or two years ago a three-year initiative was undertaken whereby a number of communities around B.C. were given funding to build programs. However, at the end of that, the funding stopped. That was coming from the province in partnership with I think NCPC, the National Crime Prevention Centre, which put in some money.
There was one-time funding in the past that has gone out, but it is $5,000 and very much scattered throughout the province. If a program does start, it is only for one year. You can only do so much with $5,000.
In terms of innovative ideas, I think that having multi-year funding, something that is more substantive and broad- based, is essential.
Ms. Vandergrift: The House of Commons passed Jordan's principle, which is supposed to address some of the gaps, put the best interests of the child ahead of federal/provincial disputes when it comes to Aboriginal children. At our best interests conference, we heard from some places in Manitoba where that approach is being implemented and put on the ground. It is making a difference, but the places are far too few. Why, after the House of Commons passed the principle, is it not being implemented such that the best interests of the child come first and you sort out the funding differences later? It could be implemented and we are showing it in a few places.
Yes, I think we need legislation to make the convention applicable in Canada in some way. I would argue for passing a law, given that the twentieth anniversary is coming up. Then let us take 10 years, if we need to, to make all our laws conform, but send a very strong message that this country takes the rights of children seriously.
Then there should be a commissioner with a special mandate for Aboriginal issues because they are partly under federal jurisdiction. I would argue that the benefit of rights-based mechanisms is that you begin to look at the outcomes, the actual situation of children.
We get reports that tell us how many millions of dollars are spent. You need to know, as legislators, what is the outcome of that, and then you can evaluate it. That is the benefit of rights-based mechanisms. It would be a plus.
We hear federalism as the barrier why we cannot do this. I am convinced it would be a plus for federalism to look at rights-based mechanisms because you get the outcomes and then you can sort out what actually happened to your dollars or did not when it comes to children.
Senator Mitchell: I have been very moved by the presentations. You have said many things. One of the subtexts — maybe it is even more than a subtext, it is explicit — is that these are very complicated matters and they are done a great disservice by an oversimplification of "get tough on crime." I find that immensely frustrating because it serves no good purpose, beyond a political one, and it distracts from the real issues and the real debate that is needed.
That is why I am very interested in what you are saying about creating a dialogue. I believe the government has a tremendous position from which not just to legislate, not just to act — although that is absolutely important — but to speak and to create the parameters of better behaviour and better understanding and to elevate and promote things like the rights of children.
I am very interested when you talk about the need to create a better-structured dialogue. That would be real leadership. Where would it come from? This is part of the dialogue and the kinds of workshops you are doing is part of the dialogue, but when you talk about that in the context that you did, what do you mean specifically?
Ms. Vandergrift: When I was talking about needing a dialogue in terms of rights of children and sexual exploitation as a subset with cultural and religious communities, it would be multi-layered. Young people told us that they need spaces where they can help sort out the conflicts around what they are hearing from their parents in some communities. They are trying to adjust to Canadian society around some of these issues, and that is one level.
Again, I do not want to spend a lot of time on a story, but let me give the example of a 20-year-old woman who left an abusive situation in a very closed religious community where she was brought as a young teenager. She is 20 years old and does not know the basics of life, how to bank, how to cope and so on. How does that happen in Canada? There is no dialogue and discussion with those leaders to say that is not the way.
When we work in development internationally, as I have, and we face issues like abused children and early marriage, we go in and work with those communities to change practices.
Things are happening in Canada. We need similar approaches. That is why I say "dialogue," because we know the law will only touch the tip, but there is a way of talking to communities. I can tell you some of us are in dialogue with some of the women who have left Bountiful, B.C. I expect there may be positive changes from that long before there will be through the Attorney General's office.
Senator Mitchell: He is trying.
Ms. Vandergrift: We want to talk about what is happening to young girls — and young boys, by the way — in situations like that. How do you change practices, at least relative to those who are under age? I think that is a way of going about it.
It would be at different levels, but it needs political leadership to be effective.
Senator Mitchell: For sure. When you talk about rights-based educational programs, you are talking directly in the schools and you are saying that are done in a few places with success, is that right?
Ms. Vandergrift: We would like to see rights-based programming throughout the schools. It is exciting now to see that some of the places that have been doing that for three or four years are seeing dramatic evidence-based results. That is happening. There is one school now in B.C. I think in the early stages.
It has not gained momentum, so we need to do that on a broad basis instead of one little nice project here and there.
Senator Mitchell: Could you give us a couple of examples? Not now, necessarily, but I would love to follow up with schools like that and see more, specifically.
Finally, in Ms. Wolski's presentation — and we hear it often — the person goes to the police and the police dismiss the problem. Yet, Ms. Hunt, I think you mentioned that part of the problem with the police is they move from rural areas too often, but you were not implying that they were not listening while they were there.
Do you think that mind set is still a problem, generally, in police forces? Do you think there is a tendency not to credit these kinds of issues and problems with the importance that they deserve; that they are just being dismissed?
Ms. Wolski: We have done research through the Sisters in Spirit Initiative. We have released a report and it is on our website. There are a number of stories where that is, in fact, the case.
Senator Mitchell: It remains a problem, then.
Ms. Wolski: It can be the case where a full year will go by before anybody will even say, "Oh, yeah. I guess she is not coming back."
Senator Mitchell: In rural areas that would often be the RCMP, would it not?
Ms. Wolski: Yes.
Senator Mitchell: We are dealing with sexual exploitation. Are there some special considerations or issues, such as perhaps with gay children and gay youth, that you consider in your deliberations on these matters, and does policy, the dialogue or the program need to address that sphere in particular?
Ms. McHugh: In the presentation we made on the Culturally Relevant Gender Based Analysis framework document, we include the transgendered and the two-spirited. We have to include them because they are a part of our communities. Their needs are no different than the other children we are working for. We have to include them and address their issues in order to be effective in any work we are doing for young people. They are a part of the membership.
I would like to go back to the issue of policing. In rural communities, oftentimes the response time from the police is very, very slow. In some cases, they do not even bother showing up. In places where they have lost the First Nations policing funding, and RCMP have taken over the jurisdiction of these reserves, the response time is often very slow. Of course, this impedes the justice, for all victims, that we are hoping for.
We also need to constantly refer to the jurisdictional barriers that we face through our funding and any agreements that are in place. There are jurisdictional issues that affect the funding we are hoping for.
For example, Ms. Vandergrift referred to the Jordan's Principle. Although that was passed in Parliament a couple of years ago, we still do not have the resources to implement that principle, and our children continue to be affected by this. They are continually falling through the cracks of the system that is not working for us.
When we talk about the sexual exploitation of children, we know that the justice system of Canada has failed. The protection of our children is something that we are very serious about, and it is not being addressed by the justice system because too many of our children are falling through the cracks of the system.
Ms. Frawley-Henry: I would like to add to the first question. Yes, the policy initiative we are undertaking in the context of the Culturally Relevant Gender Based Analysis does look at two-spirited and transgendered individuals in our communities. Therefore, that particular policy would be inclusive of all, as I said, those along the gender continuum; men, women, girls and boys.
This particular policy program, which is not only implemented within the Assembly of First Nations as a process, but will also be within our regions as well as our First Nations communities, obviously with appropriate resources, and of course, gender budgeting considerations, as well, are very important.
The Chair: Senator Nancy Ruth said she had a very short question, and I would please ask that the responses, if necessary, be short because we are already impinging on the next panel by 20 minutes.
Senator Nancy Ruth: I want to further explore the request for a commissioner. The idea has been around for a few years, and I am concerned about it. I want to know, in part, what the backup is behind that structure. Since Joe Clark introduced the Minister of Status of Women, we have had at least eight Prime Ministers and we still have massive poverty, sexual abuse and everything else.
Therefore, what will need to be behind this commissioner? Do you think it will work any differently than the language commissioner or the minister for women or anything else? There are so many provincial dominion issues, too.
Ms. Vandergrift: That gets debated within our community at length. First of all, it needs to be a mandate in legislation to make the Convention on the Rights of the Child part of Canadian law. It needs to be a strong mandate.
Second, I would argue for a complaints mechanism so that young people can approach that office to, in fact, have issues investigated and resolved.
In terms of its value, here's my hope: We now have three provincial children's commissioners who have used rights- based reports to change things in their provinces of B.C., Saskatchewan and New Brunswick. Those children's advocates all say we need a federal commissioner, and they are making a difference in making it work. They are using rights-based outcome analysis, and they have been able to achieve some change. However, it will have to be that kind of a strong mandate. I agree with you. I would be really disappointed if we just got another office.
The Chair: I would like to thank our panellists. We have certainly utilized the time effectively in our study.
One of the questions raised was role models within your own communities and, particularly, with the Aboriginals. As history points out, in the international work you have done, Ms. Vandergrift, if the leaders take the issues seriously, it has a spill-over effect elsewhere.
Regarding this issue of abuse in communities, I would be interested in examples you may have of native leaders who have made the issue a priority within their own community. It would be interesting to call these people to see how it has worked. If you have something practical that is on the ground, it would be an excellent way to proceed given that so much goes unreported. It is accepted in the communities. Supporting the action at the source in communities would be the first step. The rest would fall into place.
If you can provide some models that have had success to the clerk verbally or in writing, it would be helpful. Thank you for your time today, your expertise and your commitment to this issue.
Honourable senators, we have two departments represented for our next panel — Indian and Northern Affairs Canada and the Public Health Agency of Canada. Making presentations will be Ms. Quinn and Mr. Segard.
Mary Quinn, Director General, Social Policy and Programs Branch, Indian and Northern Affairs Canada: Thank you for the opportunity to appear before your committee today. Accompanying me are Line Paré from the External Relations & Gender Issues Branch and John Gordon from the Office of the Federal Interlocutor dealing with the minister's responsibilities for non-status Indians and Metis. It is a privilege for my colleagues and me to appear before this committee and to hear firsthand the views of the panel members as you continue your examination into the serious issue of sexual exploitation of children in Canada.
I would like to outline generally some of the work Indian and Northern Affairs Canada is doing in support of Aboriginal women, children and families. I will also touch on some of the specific initiatives for which Ms. Paré, Mr. Gordon and I are responsible.
[Translation]
As you are aware, Canada's approximately eight million children include a substantial number of young Aboriginal children, who make up the fastest growing segment of our child population.
I can assure committee members that we recognize the seriousness of the sexual exploitation of children in Canada, and we are particularly concerned with the safety and well-being of all Inuit, Metis and First Nation children.
[English]
Indian and Northern Affairs Canada, or INAC, has a broad mandate in supporting Canada's Aboriginal and northern peoples to foster healthy and sustainable communities and pursue economic and social development. A number of social determinants of health may increase the risk of child exploitation. We have heard some of them today — the lack of education, unemployment, poverty and family violence. Unfortunately, many of these issues disproportionately affect Aboriginal communities and their children.
Through the department's support for social, community development and education programs on reserve, we work closely with First Nation, federal and provincial partners to help address these social determinants and to build healthier and safer First Nation families. The ongoing reform and development of these programs is critical to tackling the root causes that may contribute to the sexual exploitation of children on and off reserve to ultimately prevent children from going down the wrong path that might leave them vulnerable and exposed.
Aboriginal communities and families are benefiting from Canada's Economic Action Plan, which makes investments in opportunities for Canadians a priority. These initiatives will lead to a more secure environment for all Canadians, including Aboriginal Canadians. Under the EAP, First Nation families and communities are benefiting from almost $1 billion invested in urgent infrastructure needs on reserve, such as housing, school construction and improved access to clean drinking water. Through legislative reform, such as Bill C-8, the proposed Family Homes on Reserves and Matrimonial Interests or Rights Act, the Government of Canada is taking concrete steps to provide First Nation women with the rights and remedies enjoyed by other Canadians.
For example, three years ago the First Nation Child and Family Services Program moved to what is referred to as an enhanced prevention-focused approach. This is a three-party approach, which involves the provinces, the federal government and First Nations and focuses more on prevention than on out-of-home care. In 2006, this government contributed $98 million over five years to introduce this model and implement it in Alberta. In 2008, the government provided an additional $115 million over five years to implement the new approach in Saskatchewan and Nova Scotia.
Earlier this month, the Government of Canada announced the details of a further $20 million over two years for First Nations child and family services identified in the Economic Action Plan, which will enable child and family service agencies in Quebec and Prince Edward Island to transition to the enhanced prevention approach. It is anticipated that all provinces could be under this approach by 2013. A preventive approach aims to support parents and keep families together, which ultimately will enhance a sense of security among children and hopefully decrease the risk of sexual exploitation. A related program is the department's National Child Benefit Reinvestment Initiative. This program is close to income assistance and helps families by providing funding for community projects related to child care, home-to-work transition activities, parental and nutritional support and culturally relevant programming.
I will touch briefly on the work of the Office of the Federal Interlocutor for Metis and Non-Status Indians to improve the socio-economic conditions of Metis, non-status Indians and urban Aboriginals. Notable, this is accomplished through discussions with provinces and organizations representing and serving off-reserve Aboriginal people across the country. It is accompanied by the Urban Aboriginal Strategy, which is a community-based initiative developed by the Government of Canada to improve social and economic opportunities of Aboriginal people living in urban centres.
[Translation]
Through the Urban Aboriginal Strategy, the Government of Canada partners with the Aboriginal community and local organizations, municipal and provincial governments and with the private sector. These partnerships support projects that respond to local priorities and advance the UAS national priority areas of: improving life skills, promoting job training, skills and entrepreneurship and supporting Aboriginal women, children and families.
[English]
Since 2007, more than 140 projects have addressed directly issues such as healing and wellness, leadership and empowerment, harm reduction, and violence prevention in some of Canada's largest urban centres. More broadly, the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child plays an important role in development and implementation of children's rights in Canada and serves to influence our policy strategies, action plans and initiatives.
If I may, I will speak to the Family Violence Prevention Program.
[Translation]
The issue of violence against Aboriginal women and their families in Canada cannot be ignored as it relates to protecting the rights of children. INAC's Family Violence Prevention Program works closely with federal and Aboriginal partners to provide protection and prevention services in First Nation communities. The aim is to ensure First Nation women and children have a safe place to turn to during situations of family violence, while supporting First Nation communities to address the root causes of family violence through a range of prevention activities.
Five new First Nation shelters are currently under construction. Family violence programs for Aboriginal women and children off reserve are provided by provincial and territorial governments.
[English]
Furthermore, the fourth anniversary of the Sisters in Spirit vigils took place yesterday, October 4, and honoured the lives of the many Aboriginal women and girls who are missing and offered support to their families, who bear this terrible burden of grief. Ending this type of violence is a shared responsibility amongst all levels of government, law enforcement agencies, the justice system, civil society and stakeholders.
The department commends the Native Women's Association of Canada for the work they have done through the Sisters in Spirit Initiative. NWAC has contributed to our understanding of the extent and nature of violence against Aboriginal women and children. Together, we have undertaken activities aimed at verifying the number of missing and murdered women, understanding the root causes of racial and sexually-based violence and developing a strategy to improve programs, services and policies aimed at reducing, and ultimately eliminating, violence against women and children.
Notwithstanding all efforts by all of those who are involved in addressing the broad determinants of health and more specific programming, much more remains to be done in closing the gap between Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal Canadians. We are committed to continuing that work with our partners. My colleagues and I will do our best to answer any questions.
Sylvain Segard, Director General, Health Promotion and Chronic Disease Branch, Public Health Agency of Canada: Honourable senators, with me today is Kelly Stone, Director of the Division of Childhood and Adolescence at the Centre.
I thank you for inviting us here to present before the committee. You will hear some parallelism with the presentation by Mary Quinn in terms of the philosophy underlying the agency's program. The core of the agency's approach to the importance of the prevention of abuse is based on the a social determinants approach to healthy child development. I will expand on some of our brand of programming and touch on our specific role with respect to the implementation and coordination of the commitments made under the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child.
The principles' of the UNCRC that emphasize children reaching their full potential inspires our action on broad health determinants, including the factors such as income, social status, education, literacy, employment and many of the others that Ms. Quinn outlined today.
[Translation]
Many of these factors are addressed in the Chief Public Health Officer's upcoming Annual Report on the State of Public Health in Canada that will shortly be tabled in the House of Commons. This year the report focuses on the problems and conditions confronting children and youth in Canada. I would invite you to study this report once it has been made public, a few days from now.
[English]
The overall approach by the Public Health Agency of Canada to health promotion is based on the recognition that there is no easy solution to the diverse health challenges facing children and families. In our efforts to help prevent sexual exploitation, we work closely with other federal departments, the provinces and territories, and non- governmental organizations and community groups to provide at-risk children and their families with the information and tools they need to recognize and deal with the various risk factors that might contribute to the exploitation and abuse.
This proactive approach allows us not only to address negative risk factors but also to identify and facilitate protective factors that support healthy child development. By focusing on protective factors such as education, learning and health promotion, et cetera, we have been able to develop highly targeted and strength-based intervention programs for children and families.
[Translation]
Among our most successful programs are the Aboriginal Head Start in Urban and Northern Communities Program, the Canada Prenatal Nutrition Program and the Community Action Program for at-risk children and families.
These programs represent important upstream investments in the health and social development of Canada's most vulnerable and disadvantaged children.
[English]
As I mentioned at the outset, our broad approach to health protection and promotion is inspired by the Government of Canada's commitment to the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. Co-responsibility for the coordination and implementation of the UN convention at the federal level rests with the Department of Justice and the Public Health Agency of Canada.
As committee members may be aware, the Public Health Agency is also co-chair of the interdepartmental working group on children's rights, which was formalized in 2007 as a follow-up to a recommendation made by this standing committee. Kelly Stone is the co-chair for the agency and is available if you wish to direct questions later on this subject.
By ensuring regular discussion of children's rights and related issues, the working group contributes substantially to the overall awareness and understanding among federal officials of Canada's obligations under the Convention on the Rights of the Child.
While Canada has made significant progress over the past two decades in meeting the convention standards, we know we still have much work to make these standards a reality for all Canadian children. One way in which we are doing this is by promoting greater awareness of and collaboration on children's health issues through our annual celebration of National Child Day on November 20. You may recall that the theme of the National Child Day November last year was the children's right to protection from sexual exploitation. We have this issue in mind and will continue to keep that in mind. This year, of course, we will have no such targeted thematic since we will choose to focus on the twentieth anniversary and celebrate the achievements in their totality.
[Translation]
Another important initiative that reflects our commitment to Convention principles is the Agency's National Clearinghouse of Family Violence, which is managed on behalf of the Government of Canada's Family Violence Initiative.
The Clearinghouse is Canada's resource centre for information on violence in relationships of kinship, intimacy, dependency or trust. These resources include publications, videos, a website, a library reference collection and a 1-800 information line.
The National Clearinghouse also offers a directory and a referral service to help connect individuals with resource people and organizations responding to family violence. The directory itself includes a National Inventory of Treatment Programs for Child Sexual Abuse Offenders.
[English]
The agency also contributes to child protection through its surveillance of the child maltreatment incidence rate in Canada. This is done through the Canadian incidence study of reported child abuse and neglect, which is conducted every five years. The last complete surveillance data, from 2003, shows that neglect was the most frequently reported form of substantiated child maltreatment. This was followed by the exposure to domestic violence, physical abuse, and emotional maltreatment. Sexual abuse was the least common form of substantiated maltreatment. That is not to say that it is no less of significance, but it was a lesser factor.
The agency is currently working on the latest data collection, of 2008, and hopes to be able to report on the next round of statistics concerning child abuse and neglect in the near future.
[Translation]
Elsewhere, the spirit of the UN Convention of the Rights of the Child is reflected in our Centres of Excellence for Children's Well-Being Program. Under this program, the Agency has supported four centres dedicated to furthering knowledge in the areas of child welfare, early childhood development, special needs and youth engagement.
[English]
One final initiative I would like to highlight this afternoon is the Nobody's Perfect Parenting Program. The program, which is run by 5,000 community workers, parents and public health nurses in communities across the country, is designated to meet the needs of young, single, socially and geographically isolated parents or those who come from low income and/or a limited education background. Nobody's Perfect offers social support, shared experience and the opportunity for parents to learn about normal growth, development and behaviour for their children.
To date, the Nobody's Perfect program has been translated into nine languages in order to better reach vulnerable populations throughout Canada, and it has even been adopted at the international level by the government of Chile as part of their country's effort to improve health outcomes for their at-risk kids.
[Translation]
As you can see from the programs I have described, the Public Health Agency of Canada is making considerable efforts in addressing the needs of Canada's vulnerable and disadvantaged children, including those at risk of sexual abuse and exploitation.
Our efforts are aimed at empowering children and families to take direct action on health factors that impact on their lives at home, at school and in the community.
[English]
By continuing to focus on health information, tools and empowerment issues, and by strengthening our commitment to the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, we hope to ensure that all of Canada's children get off to the healthiest possible start in life and grow to their full potential as contributing members of Canadian society.
Senator Dallaire: Ms. Quinn, a white paper produced in the Department of National Defence dealt with the capability commitment gap. It attempted to articulate the minimum viable requirement for the forces to do their job according to policies that were articulated. At the time, in the capital acquisition of just the army, there was a debt of $12 million over 15 years.
How much do you really need to achieve your aim in regard to your mandates? Can you tell us that your funding and resource base is up to that requirement, or to put it another way, to meeting the deficiencies that we seem to have participated in creating in Aboriginal communities? We control the housing, and there is overpopulation in houses. The deterioration of infrastructure and schools are significant factors down south but seem to get a different perspective in Aboriginal communities.
Ms. Quinn: I could not give you a precise number. I can tell you the department's spending is in excess of $6 billion annually. Now, money is not the answer to everything, but it certainly makes a difference. We do operate under a 2 per cent spending cap every year, so it is very much incumbent on the department, working with First Nations, to ensure that we spend that money in the best way possible.
In addition to the 2 per cent increase in our regular programming, there are particular initiatives for which we seek cabinet approval to go forward. Those, as you know, are the initiatives that we generally see in different budgets and in the last year's Economic Action Plan.
We know too that we have, for example, programs for income assistance and other social programs, housing and water, for which there is a huge demand. Therefore the job for us is to use those resources efficiently, to strengthen our program management so that we can get better evidence and better outcomes. With that information we can see whether we can bolster the funds that are put into those programs and work with our other partners who may also bring funding, knowledge and expertise to the table.
Senator Dallaire: In Manitoba, Saskatchewan, and British Columbia, 90 per cent of the youth involved in street prostitution are Aboriginal. Do you have long-term programs? Can you run a project for, say, the next 20 years on a social requirement to alleviate or change an atmosphere within a community, so that it can make a paradigm shift on a subject like sexual abuse of children? Do you have that capability? Do you have such projects that have long-term programs?
Ms. Quinn: Yes. There is regular programming where we have our regular budget and those budgets will be increased annually by 2 per cent. Then the government will announce a five-year program to do something and sometimes they are extended.
For example, with regard to the First Nation Child and Family Services, a decade ago there were very few First Nation child and family service agencies. They were not run by First Nations. Starting in 2007 the department and the Government of Alberta and the Alberta First Nations agreed on a three-party framework to start implementing child and family services with a prevention focus.
In many ways in our social programs, like income assistance and child and family services, we are catching up with what the provinces started doing some years ago. For child and family services, the focus had been very much taking children out of the home. The Alberta government and other governments started different approaches, putting the accent on prevention so that services could be offered in the home to parents or to children and in that way social case people could make better decisions.
We received money in three consecutive budgets to pursue this province-by-province approach. We work province by province because it is an area of provincial jurisdiction and the provinces work differently and offer different services, including issues to address addictions or other challenges that the family is facing.
We do have programs that go out long-term, but we need to demonstrate results and accountability to taxpayers so that we can continue our funding, and in some cases, so that we can get incremental funds when we determine that working with our partners is better more effective way to do something. Unless we have that evidence and those results, it makes our job to make a case for that kind of new initiative, or a reformed initiative, if you will, difficult to get those resources.
Senator Dallaire: One would think that all you should have to do is compare what we have down here with what is up there and bingo, you know the delta, instead of having to do all these studies, reviews and so on. I find it incredible, having been on the Aboriginal Committee, to see what you have to go through — and I am trying to be polite here — to get funding deltas to meet minimum requirements that we consider essential down here for children, knowing that the bulk of the children who are being exploited right now are Aboriginal kids. Even that fact does not seem to be able to tilt things, although you say there are initiatives. The results are certainly not there I find when it comes to the delta of funding one requirement.
[Translation]
Mr. Segard, I was going to ask you what you count on doing to mark the 20th anniversary, and you have given me that information.
You have held your present position for three years now. How do you ensure inter-sectoral integration? How do you go abo ut ensuring that Jordan's Principle is applied by other departments in order to meet the needs of young people in a framework of prevention and respect for children's rights?
Mr. Segard: First of all, allow me to make a slight correction. I have been in my present position for six months and not three years.
Senator Dallaire: I was told it was since 2006, but so be it.
Mr. Segard: Through the interdepartmental committee, we foster dialogue on various issues including Jordan's Principle. In these discussions, we ask all involved departments to endorse their respective areas of analysis and participation, as required under Jordan's Principle, in the context of their own policies and programs. The question should therefore be put to each of these departments.
Senator Dallaire: Your agency plays no coordination role?
Mr. Segard: No
Senator Dallaire: Is the system therefore working, or are people refusing to follow the guidelines? This requires tremendous flexibility between the various departments, the provinces and your agency.
Mr. Segard: Indeed. In this regard, I believe that people are well aware of their responsibilities and obligations. You might put the question to Ms. Stone. As co-Chair of the interdepartmental committee, she will undoubtedly be able to tell you more about the nature of the dialogue.
[English]
Kelly Stone, Director, Division of Childhood and Adolescence, Health Promotion and Chronic Disease Branch, Public Health Agency of Canada: The committee itself is one where dialogue is promoted, as mentioned. We are always in the process of learning. The Public Health Agency of Canada and the Department of Justice's responsibility is to coordinate. Each department, as Mr. Segard has said, is responsible for its own policy and programming and legislative mandates, of course, but we have the opportunity in sharing to take a child rights lens on public policy as it is being developed, on programming as it is envisioned, when we have evaluations as we do for the Public Health Agency's programs. We can look at those evaluations and ask how do we improve our programs in the future and use the benefit of the fact that we now have a group of departments that are becoming more and more informed as to the convention, how do we apply the expertise, in a real social determinants of health and rights lens, to the changes that we would make in public policy?
The committee also gives us the chance to work more constructively on our reporting obligations. This is a reporting year for Canada. Hopefully our third and fourth reports will be out before the end of the year. Of course, that has to be coordinated with the provinces and the territories as well, not just amongst the federal departments. It gives us a chance to work on things like National Child Day. A number of departments have contributed funds this year towards the celebration. There is a learning conference for government officials that week. There is also the University of Ottawa conference, to which we have contributed.
As far as National Child Day itself, together we have created some activities, posters and such that are being sent out almost any day now across the country, thousands of them, to schools and daycares to promote the convention, both the rights children enjoy in Canada and around the world and their responsibilities, and to help the teachers and daycare workers share in the celebration with the children and also teach them about those rights and responsibilities.
This was a recommendation of this committee, and it has really been a success. We have not worked together that long formally, but I think it is a real success. We are making progress together.
Senator Jaffer: I would like to welcome you all here. I found your presentations very interesting.
A statistic was provided to us. We were told, Ms. Quinn, that there is 22 per cent less funding given to on-reserve or Aboriginal children than to provincial funding. Can you please enlighten us on that?
Ms. Quinn: I believe that statistic refers to the funding for First Nation Child and Family Services on reserve. There was a report some years ago that is a very valuable and useful tool in terms of the findings that it brought to light.
That report's comparison would be to provincial funding because the provinces fund off reserve. I believe that report was looking at the funding off reserve and comparing it to the funding on reserve. We work on a province-by- province basis in order to understand better what they spend on funding directly for child and family services and for related services. A provincial ministry of child and family services will probably spend more money to accommodate the many kinds of programming attached to it than we would spend on prevention, maintenance and operation of the agencies that are in the prevention model.
In a nutshell, the 22 per cent is based on a certain kind of analysis — possibly a nation-wide analysis — while we are working province by province. When we do the frameworks for the prevention-focused model, we sit down with the province because you cannot find all the information in their annual reports and such. I think the 22-per-cent number was reached on its own merit and analysis.
By sitting down with the provinces to come to a three-party agreement, we get an understanding of how much they pay their case workers and for other services and the different operations in maintaining their work and activities. In that way, we feel that we can come up with a good number that is comparable to the province and is able to support operations and maintenance, and of course, the prevention activities which are equally — if not more — important in this area of public policy.
Senator Jaffer: Can you please provide that information? You obviously have it province by province. It would be useful if you would provide us with information, through the clerk or the chair, on how you arrive at your figure and how you think the province arrives at its figure.
Ms. Quinn: We can give you an indication of the incremental funding to the five provinces where we are proceeding on the prevention-based model.
In terms of all of the provinces, one of the recommendations of the Public Accounts Committee was to report to them on provincial comparability. The government, when it tabled its response, indicated that it would do so but in a phased approach, starting with the five provinces that are under the incremental model and then reporting on the other provinces.
We will certainly provide the committee with what we have, but we do not have everything right now, and we have a commitment to the Public Accounts Committee as well.
Senator Jaffer: As you get it, if you can please provide it.
The Chair: Part of the problem is that Aboriginal people in crisis move from reserves into cities and other communities. This 22 per cent figure is difficult to assess because it was a comparison with what goes on in family services on reserve — I know it is that way in Saskatchewan — and what the province does. In to giving these statistics, can you define your mandate?
Our concern is when these children are in crisis they are moving from one service perhaps to another, optimistically, and we need to know who has been picking up that cost or if there is a gap. Are these kids lost?
Years ago if you moved off the reserve you were not on the provincial rolls. Then you were put on the provincial rolls and, when times got tough, the provinces said, no, those are federal responsibilities. It has been a moving target, and very difficult for us to figure out. I would imagine those who are to receive the services must be even more confused.
Please identify exactly your mandate and where the Aboriginal mandate is within the provincial sector.
Senator Dallaire: In regard to the comment that you are capped at 2 per cent growth, the Aboriginal community is growing exponentially. Is there not a disconnect there, to be held to a pan-government increment when, in fact, your delta is going up continuously? You bring positive programs, but you are sliding more and more because demand is rising faster than the funding.
Ms. Quinn: We know the demographics in Aboriginal communities, so we certainly need to spend the dollars that we have as well as we possibly can. In areas of child and family services we need to look for new policy answers like focusing on the prevention side.
We also have the income-assistance program to help people in need because of lack of employment. On income assistance, the provinces moved some years ago to what they call active measures to prevent people from running up against the welfare wall or getting caught in a cycle of poverty, to get them into the labour market by helping with the transition to work. Certainly where there are large labour-market shortages and a burgeoning Aboriginal population, and we want to put those things together as best we can. The federal and departmental funding is certainly important, but we do not bring everything to the table.
We have recently had some energized conversations, particularly with some of the western provinces, about active measures and how the two parties can work together, for example, the services the Saskatchewan employment offices provide along with Service Canada and other programs out of Human Resources and Social Development to come up with an Aboriginal entrepreneurship project.
We need to use the dollars effectively and show results when we make the case for new dollars, and we do get incremental funding in the budget to address certain priorities. We have to focus on our priorities, not as a means to dismiss what needs continual improvement, but to get the best results for First Nation and Aboriginal people, working together with them.
Senator Jaffer: We know the services provided in urban areas are different from rural areas. I would like any of our witnesses to tell us what specifically they are providing in rural areas specifically to deal with sexual exploitation, nothing else, because that is the focus of our study.
My preoccupation is with the Olympic Games coming to my province. There is more and more evidence that it will not be women and children from outside who will be brought to our city. Sadly, it is obvious that more Aboriginal children are ending up on Vancouver and Richmond streets. What are you specifically doing with regard to the sexual exploitation of rural Aboriginal children who end up in urban areas? What kind of programs do you have?
Ms. Quinn: About 13 departments are involved in the Family Violence Prevention Program. For example, we recently received funding with Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation to build five more shelters.
We do fund, at Indian and Northern Affairs Canada, programs like family violence prevention. We do fund what I referred to as social determinants of health via programs that help increase education, provide income assistance and aid in the transition to work, but we do not have a program directly aimed at sexual exploitation of children.
Our funding, the effectiveness of that funding and the delivery of the programs will be aimed at what is setting and improving social determinants of health and conditions on reserve. However, our department does not have a program directly aimed at sexual exploitation of children. We are involved in a family violence prevention program but there are many other factors at many levels. You will not find a program specifically aimed at that concern, but that is not to say that through the interdepartmental exercises such as Mr. Segard referred to and in all our work generally the issue is not discussed.
Certainly with respect to First Nations Child and Family Services, much of the information is private, but we do look at, through the incidence study, the reasons that children find themselves in these situations. We work with the provinces because they have knowledge in this area as well. More importantly, we work with the directors of the First Nation agencies themselves to inform ourselves on what people are doing, what improvements can be made and what we need to do more of. We need to do a lot more.
In terms of the Olympic Games, I will pass to my colleagues, if they are directly involved in this. I can tell you that our department has a group that works on the games and is working with other federal partners, including the RCMP, but I cannot tell you specifically what is being done with respect to —
Senator Jaffer: Can you please provide that to us through our chair?
Ms. Quinn: I will provide information on the interdepartmental process around the Olympic Games.
Senator Jaffer: Just dealing with Aboriginal children.
Ms. Quinn: Yes, with respect to the sexual exploitation of Aboriginal children. As I said, just to clarify my previous response, as the government responds to the Public Accounts Committee in terms of the questions around on- and off- reserve, child and family services we will provide that to the committee. As the chair suggested, we will be clear about the mandates.
Senator Jaffer: Ms. Quinn, you stated "child and family services." Is that different from your department?
Ms. Quinn: No. Sorry. Child and family services is one program in social development. We have about five programs for which we provide funding.
Senator Jaffer: Are they all under the department?
Ms. Quinn: They are within the department, and child and family services is the program that seeks to help families and children in difficulty by funding either the province or the First Nations child and family services agencies to deal with children.
Mr. Segard: On the agency side, specifically with respect to the Olympics, the answer is not really relevant to your question. The agency's primary role here is to help with the prevention and readiness of infectious disease being communicated throughout the Games, so it is not really pertinent here.
With respect to specific programs to help prevent abuse, as we have outlined, sexual exploitation begins long before a child's actual involvement in the act of being forced or coerced into that unfortunate cycle. Therefore, dealing with social determinants issues is probably the best answer. That is why in that respect I mentioned a few agencies, such as Nobody's Perfect and CAPC, prenatal nutrition and the Aboriginal Head Start Program for children that are in urban areas or specifically in the North. We also have a fetal alcohol spectrum disorder initiative that I understand you are familiar with. These are programs that, collectively we hope, help arm people with the information necessary to cope with a variety of the risk factors that they face. They are not designed as intervention to deal directly with victims of exploitation or interdiction. These questions are more in the realm of the public security portfolio than the agency's mandate.
Senator Jaffer: Ms. Quinn, your presentation is very informative, but we are not really looking at issues of family violence. In another era of the feminine gender issue, if you were to talk this way I think you would get another response. I feel you are 20 years behind the times in the terminology you are using.
We specifically wanted to hear what you are working on with respect to sexual exploitation. I wish you were here to hear what NWAC has to say and Donna's story. You have not told us what you are working on with respect to sexual exploitation. That is what we want to hear.
Ms. Quinn: Yes.
Senator Jaffer: I am sorry. Maybe it was short notice, but I think you have to come back, if I may respectfully say, and tell us what you are working on with respect to sexual exploitation and children. We do not care what you are doing with respect to family violence, with the greatest of respect. Our study is not on the issues and the programs you have covered. Obviously, we need to concentrate on just one issue, and I believe you need to inform us on that.
Ms. Quinn: We certainly respect the mandate of the committee. We have certainly reviewed previous deliberations and reports, and we reviewed the presentations from last week and listened attentively to the presentations this week. However, within the federal system, departments have different mandates. With respect to First Nations children on reserve, our role and our mandate is in supporting programs on the social side, on the economic side and on the governance side. They are related and linked, and the outcomes of these programs could assist with what happens in terms of sexual exploitation.
I cannot tell you about a sexual exploitation program because we do not have one. I can tell you what we have and why. A family that has a child with good health, that has clean drinking water, a standard, acceptable house to live in and good support mechanisms in the community will have a much better chance at a good start in life. That is the kind of funding and those are the kinds of initiatives that the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development supports.
Senator Jaffer: Ms. Quinn, it is not fair for me to ask you any further questions. We will obviously have to speak to the minister on this, so I will continue this discussion elsewhere.
Ms. Quinn: Thank you.
The Chair: Just a clarification. With respect to your definition of "family violence," does it include sexual exploitation as violence within the family?
Ms. Quinn: It could cover such a circumstance, but the Family Violence Prevention Program is made up of many departments, and I would not say that is the focus of it. I did not mean to imply that family violence prevention was our answer to sexual exploitation, because it is not, but it does cover many areas, and it would not be focused solely on sexual exploitation.
Senator Poy: I have a question for Mr. Segard. I am a little mystified as to what your agency actually does for the Aboriginal population, especially Aboriginal children. Do you have a separate department that looks after the First Nations, or is it all under the same umbrella?
Mr. Segard: The current mandate that the agency has and the specific program targeted to First Nations is the Aboriginal Head Start Program in urban and Northern areas. The program is very similar to Health Canada's First Nations and Inuit branches' responsibility for the Aboriginal Head Start program on reserve, except obviously off- reserve.
It has an early childhood development focus, zero to six years of age.
Senator Poy: Do you mean up to six years?
Mr. Segard: Yes. That is the scope of the mandate we were given and the resources that go with the program. The issues of sexual abuse and exploitation are usually targeted at the later years, and we do not have a mandate for that.
I understand Senator Jaffer's question and frustration. As my colleague mentioned, we can only report on the programs we have mandates on and explain to senators, to the best of our abilities, how they may or may not contribute. They are premised on the foundation that if we help young people in Canada receive the best education and social and emotional upbringing possible, they will be equipped with the personal resources to recognize early signs of abuse and to cope with it in some fashion. That is the best connection that we can make right now.
However, it is important to note that our mandate relates to family violence and abuse issues, not exploitation issues. Exploitation issues are really come under a legal sort of definition for which we are not involved directly.
Ms. Stone: We have children's programs, zero to six, plus the prenatal program, in literally thousands of communities around the country. We provide hubs of services and support with the provinces and the territories by a special protocol with the municipality and whoever is in the neighbourhood — private sector, NGOs, voluntary sector — for vulnerable children and families.
The percentage of Aboriginal Canadians who take advantage of these programs in their communities is extraordinarily high. Probably about half of our programs of those thousands are in rural and remote areas of Canada, about one third of them specifically in the North. In some cases, 80 per cent of the clientele may be Aboriginal in terms of their ethnicity, and it may be mixed. It is not necessarily one individual community. Sometimes it is a First Nations community but not a reserve; sometimes it is an Inuit community. Where possible, we deliver the services in the local language, sometimes orally, and where we can we provide written materials.
The committee is well aware that children who are victims of sexual exploitation very often have the same family histories as the clients who come to our programs. We can help at the other end, where we instil parents with a sense of confidence: How to handle discipline in a positive manner; that it is never okay to hit a child; that it is not okay to abuse your child, whether it is sexually, physically or emotionally, and that there are other ways of handling the frustrations of being a parent; and what is normal in terms of development right through to the risky behaviours that children undertake at each stage of their development.
If we can keep families together — and that includes dads because a lot of dads have no role models — and help the parents and children maintain a positive relationship, the chances of them transitioning through these stages successfully and into young adulthood are much greater.
Often these children who end up on the street and are sexually involved or street-involved youth come from these kinds of homes. They are running away from something. Therefore, we work at the other end to see if we can keep those families together and strengthen the bonds between the parent and the child and the confidence of the parents so that they can do their job and stay in their community and the children can develop to the best of their ability, healthy and emotionally well adjusted.
Senator Poy: You said "we." Does that mean your agency or are you working through other NGOs?
Ms. Stone: It is both. The agency is very hands on, very involved. We know our communities well, but we work with civil society and with the other levels of government that are in those communities as equal partners. They bring pieces to the table as much as we do with our particular programming.
The child is the centre, the hook, and everybody else joins on to that to provide a hub of services in the best-case scenario that support that child and their family.
Senator Poy: Is this what you call "through education?" Do you have particular educational programs in your agencies that you promote across the country?
Ms. Stone: That is right. Aboriginal Head Start is one. As you may know, that started with inner city children in the United States some 60 years ago. We have adapted it to the Canadian context for Aboriginal children both on and off reserve.
Like the Community Action Program for Children, these are 15-year-old programs. They have been evaluated and adjusted along the way. That goes to the question of is it possible to sustain programming over a long period of time? The answer is yes.
The Community Action Program for Children allows communities to help set the priorities that are appropriate for their children in their environment and decide where to put the emphasis. We, the Public Health Agency in support with our partners, help that community make those choices. That would include communities that are predominantly Aboriginal, especially in the North.
Senator Poy: How many of these offices do you have across the country?
Ms. Stone: At any given time, there are thousands. I would guess maybe around 4,000 to 5,000 programs across the country. Some of them may be a hub with a number of satellites; there is an average of 19 partners per program. You would not see "federal government" necessarily over top of the door, but we would perhaps be a founding partner in that hub of services and they would have a local community name.
Senator Poy: You are talking about prevention, right?
Ms. Stone: Yes.
Senator Poy: I want to ask a follow-up question that is not directly linked with sexual exploitation.
When you talk about prevention, how is it possible that H1N1 became so prevalent in the First Nations communities? There are many more cases there than in the rest of Canada. If there was prevention, how did that happen?
Ms. Stone: I would not even begin to suggest I have expertise in that particular area. However, I am certain that their living circumstances, the poverty and their housing in these small communities are contributing factors.
Senator Nancy Ruth: First, I want to congratulate Indian and Northern Affairs Canada, and particularly you, Ms. Paré, on your gender-based analysis and the Auditor General's great comments. That was wonderful to hear, but my question is to the Public Health Agency.
In your statement, you said that the 2003 data shows that neglect was the most frequently reported form of substantiated child maltreatment. In the 2008 data that you have started to process, have you found that neglect is still the issue that is coming up, or do you know that from the analysis?
Mr. Segard: We are still compiling the preliminary data. It would be premature for me to draw a conclusion, but I would not expect that it would be a radical change. The difference, the gaps between each of the categories that are mentioned in my presentation may have narrowed, but the ratio is about the same order.
Senator Nancy Ruth: What is that ratio?
Ms. Stone: Just to add, although it is not my area of expertise, I do know that more First Nations data has been added to this last cycle, which improves our ability to see what is going on in First Nations communities.
Senator Nancy Ruth: What percentage would be neglect as opposed to exposure to domestic violence, physical abuse or emotional maltreatment?
Mr. Segard: I did not bring the statistics with me, and I apologize; I probably should have. I would be happy to provide a detailed table with those numbers for you.
Senator Nancy Ruth: Do you want to take a guess or do you want us to wait for the numbers?
Mr. Segard: I would rather give you the numbers.
Senator Nancy Ruth: Is it 50 per cent of the reporting and the rest are 20, 10 and whatever?
Mr. Segard: It is a large amount. It is over half. That is my understanding.
Senator Nancy Ruth: When you do this analysis, do you do a gender analysis of how many boys and how many girls are reporting?
Mr. Segard: To the extent that the information is available, we can break it down, yes. However, again, sampling size is always an issue and, as Ms. Stone just point out, with the next cycle, we hope to have more information to break it down with Aboriginal population.
Senator Nancy Ruth: Is it mainly 50-50 between boys and girls or is the issue of neglect different? Everything leads to everything, right? Do you know what the gender break-out is?
Mr. Segard: I do not know offhand, but logic would dictate that it is relatively even, when it comes to neglect. When it comes to abuse, there is definitely a prevalence of girls.
The Chair: It seems to me the prevention model is what you are zeroing in on, which is, I think, what most of us want. We do not want curative answers; we want preventive answers.
You are giving information to the centres, wherever they are. Generally, parents and the community are giving information, not the children; the children may or may not be there, if I understand it. You are zeroing in on the adults. You are giving them information about life skills, if I can use that term, and you are talking about how they can protect themselves.
However, it would seem to me that you are ultimately focusing on giving those children the kinds of skills they need to go out and face the community. We are continually being told that the sexual violence and exploitation occurs within the home or community, and that only 5 per cent occurs outside the home or community. If you are equipping them to go out, you are reducing the risk on that 5 per cent, not the other, the 95 per cent.
If most of the perpetrators are known to the individual and come from their community or home, should you not be building in somewhere a discussion about the type of role models and the expectations of adults within the purview; that sex with a child is not acceptable, and all of the issues that flow from that?
It seems to me we will never get the data. If we wait for the research, who will report the experiences of hidden exploitation? Children are afraid to come forward. The adults doing it certainly will not volunteer it, unless they are caught. Otherwise, we would have the data. Should you not start by building into all of the centres and all of these preventive modes more positive identification with role models who will not exploit children in a sexual way? If that is where our anecdotal evidence is going, it would seem to be the missing piece in what I have heard today.
Mr. Segard: That is an excellent observation. We do that to the extent that we can, working with our partners. As Ms. Stone pointed out, we are often working with several NGOs, local governments and provincial agencies together to build our suite of programs with them.
While our programs may or may not be directly pointed to sexual abuse issues, we are working on site with other service providers who have that focus as part of their local delivery responsibilities to bring all of the issues together and integrate them on site in order to reach out directly to the parents and the family as a whole and, indeed, the children. In many of those programs, the kids come along for those sessions.
Ms. Stone referred to some of the sites that evolve into more of a hub-like approach. I visited some sites. While the portion that we funding may not directly answer the specific questions, there are referral services within the sites and/or visiting practitioners who come to the site on a weekly basis or what have you. Those situations that seem to be suspicious or require special attention to meet the needs of that family will be referred to the proper and competent authorities to deal with.
Directly, we may not have intervention but, indirectly, we have helped enable the conditions.
The Chair: I am saying I am surprised that we have not started to deal with the matter directly. If Aboriginal leaders are saying sexual exploitation is of concern, that young people are not bringing it forward — it is the hidden issue — would you not join hands with Aboriginal leaders so that they would start speaking to the community and say, "This is intolerable behaviour;" would you not assist them by making that part of your mandate? It is the information education that needs to be included everywhere if we are looking to change behaviour, do you not agree?
Mr. Segard: Ultimately, Madam Chair, if ministers agreed with that view, we would dearly love to be able to begin that kind of collaboration. To the extent that we are able to take advantage of our partnerships and relationships with the broad service providers and community leaders out there, we do that indirectly.
Ms. Stone: I have an additional comment. The point you raise, Madam Chair, is an important one, especially as we look towards the future of the programs and areas where we could evolve based on the circumstances of today, and what children, families and communities are facing today.
However, in the interim all is not lost. Certainly, as we take a stronger approach in our communities to implementing the convention, children have a right to feel safe and they have to be taught, even at the youngest age, what appropriate boundaries are for them as individuals and in terms of their bodies. It is very sensitive, particularly in certain communities, but we do have a very good training program for staff across the country and these sensitive issues do come up.
I would not say that we are excellent at dealing with them but we are getting a lot better at it because it is the reality of these communities and we need to keep these children safe. Through programs like the Canada Prenatal Nutrition Program, it is something we can talk about with the moms at the beginning. With the fathering programs, it is something we can talk about with the dads, where they are in a gender-specific group and it is easier to have these conversations.
Also, the inclusion of health professionals coming in and doing assessments of children on site helps because it is less scary than a child or mom having to go to a strange office to have these conversations. She can have these conversations in a place that is comfortable to her.
We are getting there but it is something we need to think about more.
Mr. Segard: In the same vein, we are working with the Joint Consortium for School Health, which is a body of federal officials and officials on the education side of the provincial and territorial governments. It is their responsibility to build that into the curriculum or extracurricular education activities, to address issues like that where we are able to have a program to sensitize young children to their rights under the conventions. We have done so in the past. It certainly might be scoped in terms of exploring that more actively with our provincial counterparts. I understand that Mr. Gordon wanted to make a point.
John Gordon, Director, Urban Aboriginal Strategy, Office of the Federal Interlocutor, Indian and Northern Affairs Canada: In speaking to your question about specific programming, the Urban Aboriginal Strategy, working through and with provincial and municipal governments, does have projects that the federal government, through INAC, has funded, that specifically look at breaking the intergenerational family cycles of violence and sexual exploitation. It also looks at actually getting to the youth and empowering the youth with cultural and other supports to help them bring forth issues of sexual exploitation to the officials, at running workshops on issues of how the legal justice system works, at whom they need to bring their concerns to and at what their rights are.
Many of these projects that try to prevent and get matters out in the open to be dealt with are funded through the provincial government, municipal government, some foundations, some private organizations, other federal departments and agencies such as PHAC. For example, on one project I have here, the partners are Status of Women, a private foundation, B.C. Aboriginal Relations, the B.C. Community Development Ministry, the B.C. Ministry of Employment and Labour Skills, the B.C. Ministry of Public Safety and the B.C. Solicitor General's office, for a total project of about a half a million dollars that specifically works in the province of British Columbia at trying to get people out of the sex trade business and getting the youth off the street. The federal government contribution in that program is about $200,000, so about half.
As to the jurisdictional dispute and some of the issues of who is responsible, the provinces or the federal government, with our program, we try to look beyond that and look for partners to help us deal with and address a single issue, much as your program does. We have been able to do that successfully in a number of communities. In total, we have supported about 141 projects across the country that specifically look at the issue of exploitation and violence against children.
The Chair: Thank you. That is very helpful.
Senator Dallaire: That is fine, but are you achieving the aim? What is your delta? How much are you really making a dent into this growing problem? That is where we are getting the disconnect here. The initiatives are magnificent. I just listened to you name off all these different departments provincially, let alone municipal, plus foundations. How can you guarantee funding from one year to another when have you all these people with different pressures on them to pull the pin and not fund? You have 140 odd, but do you need 3,000? You have 500,000, but do you need 4 million? That is where we are lost in these response.
Mr. Gordon: It is a tremendous challenge. As you say, the pressure is on each of the provincial partners and ministries and other partners. I am sure you are seeing it with some of your programming as well. There are shifting priorities. We have found, as the Urban Aboriginal Strategy, that we need to be flexible, innovative and willing to work with different partners on a constant basis. As to identifying the actual need and how to meet that need, that is a challenge none of us have the answer to, and each of us are struggling to find that answer as we move forward.
Anecdotally, I can say today in my community that the whole issue of sexual exploitation is much more out there and people are more aware of it than they were 20 years ago. We have made some advancement. We need to continue to advance. We are not doing nearly enough, but we are getting there slowly but surely.
Senator Dallaire: That is where I got the disconnect, and I hope we see the minister. I would hope that you would take the lead in these cross-jurisdictional exercises, break things down and get the funding in order to instil and encourage your partners in moving the yardsticks?
[Translation]
Line Paré, Director General, External Relations and Gender Issues Branch, Indian and Northern Affairs Canada: Indian and Northern Affairs Canada is identified and plays the lead role in gathering around the table the other federal departments in order to ensure better coordination and cooperation. All of the issues are complex. There are multiple players.
When my colleague, Ms. Quinn, spoke about Indian and Northern Affairs Canada's programs aimed at assisting families and children in the community, part of that is funding Indian and Northern Affairs Canada provides for primary and secondary education. We have youth employment programs. We have a youth employment strategy for First Nations and Inuit; there is a youth-at-risk project; there is post-secondary education assistance, assistance for families and children, and, within the community, all of these interveners have the opportunity to work together, to set up a plan and to identify priorities. It is a big challenge.
The Department of Indian Affairs plays a lead role in encouraging federal departments to talk more and to better coordinate their work. Our colleagues from the Public Health Agency of Canada spoke about the interdepartmental committee. Status of Women Canada has an interdepartmental committee that brings together federal departments in order to discuss the issue of native women and what we can do together to improve their situation. We also work with the provinces, the territories and Aboriginal people.
Senator Dallaire: In the South, we resolve these issues for Whites. In the case of Aboriginal people, we have an enormous federal responsibility, but that is the work that must be done. Either we do it or we do not do it and we tell them that we are unable to do the work and that other solutions must be found.
With all of your committees, do you provide funding in order for other departments to be able to use these monies to implement the decisions made? Must the other departments inject monies themselves? If they do not wish to participate financially, they may choose to not get involved, is that not so?
Mr. Segard: The problem is very complex and the solution is inherently multidimensional. The difference between the need and the funding is one of the good questions to ask. However, it is not the only question requiring an answer. Given that the parameters underlying or defining the problem are complex and multivariate, this will require different but complementary interventions. Perhaps that even without adding an extra dollar to the equation, if we are able to arrive at a greater cohesiveness in our suite of programs at the federal level, but also with our provincial and municipal colleagues and the NGOs, we will be able to do more still to advance the issue.
More and more, be it in this area or in other realms of social policy, the literature has shown that these types of multidimensional interventions offer a much greater chance of success long term than investing an extra dollar in a new program or piling more money onto the problem.
Senator Dallaire: I have no problem, but you have been in place for more than 100 years.
[English]
The Chair: Our struggle is much like yours. The Aboriginal communities in the provinces are very different. We have to respect those differences. At the same time, how do we attack the common problem of sexual exploitation, which we continually hear is the hidden crisis. You have given us some information. You have identified your struggle. You have now left it with us to struggle to see if we have any better solutions or recommendations to governments, the community and Aboriginal leaders.
We may call you back or ask for more information, because it is a complex issue. We thank you for furthering our dialogue.
(The committee adjourned.)