Proceedings of the Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs
Issue 4 - Evidence - October 21, 2009
OTTAWA, Wednesday, October 21, 2009
The Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs of the Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence met this day at 12:09 p.m. to study the services and benefits provided to veterans and their families (topic: implementation of the New Veterans Charter).
Senator Michael A. Meighen (Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Chair: Good afternoon, everybody. I am pleased to welcome you all to the Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs. We are pleased to have one of our regular guests, Senator Dallaire, back with us, along with subcommittee members Senator Banks, Senator Wallin, Senator Day and Senator Downe.
In any event, welcome everybody and welcome to our witnesses.
We have to adhere closely to our timetable of ending before 1:30. I, for one, have a statement to make in the chamber, so we cannot linger. I ask everybody to be crisp in their questions and responses.
The subcommittee has been studying the implementation of the New Veterans Charter for the past several weeks. The Minister of Veterans Affairs has described the charter as a ``living document'' that will be amended over time to ensure it meets the needs of veterans.
Testimony from previous witnesses provided our subcommittee with information on the following issues raised by veterans: certain inadequacies in the system of lump sum payments versus lifelong disability payments; effectiveness of outreach programs, particularly for homeless and isolated veterans; the identification and long-term care of veterans who suffer service-related maladies which become evident long after their release from the Canadian Forces; the so- called clawback for the Service Income Security Insurance Plan, SISIP, although this issue is not related to the New Veterans Charter, but it is an issue that has been raised before; and inequities between the Pension Act and the New Veterans Charter vis-à-vis reimbursement for treatment.
Today we will hear from representatives of the two departments directly implicated in these issues — Veterans Affairs Canada and the Department of National Defence. From Veterans Affairs Canada, I am pleased to introduce Keith H. Hillier, Assistant Deputy Minister, Service Delivery and Commemoration.
[Translation]
Keith Hillier joined Veterans Affairs Canada as Director General of Corporate Planning on December 5, 1994. On April 1, 2008, he assumed the responsibilities of Assistant Deputy Minister (ADM), Service Delivery and Commemoration Branch.
The Service Delivery and Commemoration Branch is one of three branches within Veterans Affairs Canada. As the ADM, Service Delivery and Commemoration Branch, Mr. Hillier is responsible for providing direct service to Canadian Forces members, Veterans, RCMP members and their families, and for keeping the memory of our Canadian heroes' sacrifices alive.
The staff complement of the SDC Branch is approximately 2,000 full-time employees.
[English]
From DND, we have today Colonel Gérard J. Blais, Director, Casualty Support Management; and Brigadier- General (Ret'd) D.E. Martin, Director General, Personnel and Family Support Services. Welcome to both of you, gentlemen.
Colonel Blais graduated from the Collège militaire royal de Saint-Jean with a bachelor's degree in administration and Canadian studies. His first posting was with the second battalion of the Royal 22nd Regiment at La Citadelle in Quebec City, where he served as second in command of the services company and as guard commander of the ceremonial Guarde en Rouge.
Colonel Blais was promoted to Lieutenant-Colonel in the year 2002 and was posted to National Defence headquarters, where he served as the director of assistant deputy minister, Human Resources Secretariat. In July 2005, he was posted to his current position as the director of casualty support management, and was subsequently promoted to Colonel in 2008.
[Translation]
Brigadier-General Martin graduated from the Royal Military College in Kingston, with specialization in engineering management, in 1976. He served for 36 years in the Canadian Forces as Sea King pilot in the four maritime helicopters squadrons and on various Canadian Her Majesty's ships. Brigadier-General Martin retired from the regular force in October 2008.
[English]
Since 2007, Brigadier-General Martin has been responsible for the Canadian Forces personnel and family support services.
He is here today primarily in his capacity as director general, personnel and family and support services, a level two under Chief of Military Personnel, CMP, responsible for public morale and welfare program oversight and delivery.
Gentlemen, we welcome you here today. We thank you for your willingness to come and enlighten us on your areas of responsibility. We will begin with Mr. Hillier from Veterans Affairs Canada.
Senator Banks: May I interrupt? The committee considered questions having to do with Bill C-33, together with a specific question. I wrote to the minister some time ago on these matters and he has responded to me today. Both letters are in English only. Is it agreeable that they be distributed now to members of the committee for their information?
The Chair: Can we distribute the letters in one language only with the permission of the committee? Does the committee agree to the distribution in English only?
Senator Day: I agree, but I think we should have them translated.
The Chair: They are not time-sensitive, are they?
Senator Banks: No.
The Chair: Can we have them translated in a reasonable time? We will have them translated and distribute them as soon as we receive them.
Senator Day: I feel better about that approach.
The Chair: I do too.
Mr. Hillier, please proceed.
Keith H. Hillier, Assistant Deputy Minister, Service Delivery and Commemoration, Veterans Affairs Canada: Thank you for your kind words of introduction. I am honoured to be here, together with my colleagues, Colonel Blais and Brigadier-General Martin.
Today you have asked for information on how the Government of Canada is keeping its promise to deliver programs and services to the thousands of brave men and women who serve their country at home and in many parts of the world.
I know this subject is of ongoing interest to this committee. Your support is always appreciated but is especially meaningful these days as we lead up to Veterans Week.
As in past years, Veterans Week will be a time to come together as a nation to commemorate and applaud the strength and spirit of our military heroes, past and present. Hundreds of events will take place across Canada, including in the Senate on November 6 during Veterans Week through a special ceremony that will pay tribute to the sixty-fifth anniversary of the Italian campaign. These ceremonies are an important part of our heritage and of our remembrance.
To complement these occasions, remembrance within Veterans Affairs Canada also manifests itself in another important way, the day-to-day delivery of service and benefits to the approximately 219,000 clients we serve. Today I will focus my attention on service delivery to modern-day Canadian Forces veterans and still-serving members.
The presentation package that you have in front of you will serve as a reference tool for our discussion today. To leave as much time as possible for your questions, I will limit my opening remarks to only a few of the actions that we are taking to modernize our service delivery.
Our service delivery is really in the context of the New Veterans Charter. I think it is fair to say that our service delivery platform is influenced by the charter. As you all know, the charter's program can be summed up in one word, ``wellness.''
Collectively, the New Veterans Charter programs give modern-day veterans the tools and opportunities they need to build better lives for themselves and their families after their military career has ended. The new charter offers access to health services, health insurance, rehabilitation, job placement, financial support, lump-sum disability award and a personalized case management. In short, the new charter offers opportunity with security.
In terms of the modern-day Canadian Forces clients, I will speak a little about the profile. Today, we provide services or benefits to approximately 60,000 modern-day veterans. Of these, about 3,800 clients have served in one or more tours of duty in Afghanistan. About 2,000 clients are now in receipt of benefits related to their service in Afghanistan.
Of this group, about 180 have been assessed as having serious injuries due to their military service in Afghanistan. In lay terms, these individuals may have experienced one or more injuries, including amputations, significant brain trauma or complex psychological injuries.
I offer these statistics not to alarm you. In fact, the statistics confirm that the majority of our troops come back home safe and well. As well, experience tells us that, with early intervention and rehabilitation support, the vast majority of those who are injured will go on to lead productive and fulfilling lives.
In terms of our key initiatives, I point out a couple of things that we will move forward. First is the concept of operations, where we have basically developed a plan to the year 2015 that is based on three concepts.
[Translation]
This concept includes three priorities.
[English]
They are modernizing service delivery, especially for the seriously injured; modernizing our technology platforms; and modernizing our client outreach and our communications.
A part of this strategy is the integrated personnel support units. We have been working closely with our colleagues at the Department of National Defence. We are now located with DND at all 19 centres that have been announced. I know that Senator Wallin was recently at Petawawa. I was pleased to read her resumé of her visit to Petawawa, and the positive experiences that she noted with the men and women who were at that particular unit.
Also, in terms of moving forward, I will comment on a couple of other points of note that you will see in the slide deck. First, we have established an Afghanistan and seriously injured unit. To help support the work of the integrated personnel centres, we have established this unit.
[Translation]
The specialized unit is located in Charlottetown.
[English]
It is staffed by adjudicators with experience in applications involving serious injuries. We know the unit is making a difference. Right now, the average turnaround time for adjudication for these particular types of files is approximately one-third of the normal turnaround time for a disability application. In order to make the right decisions as soon as we can, and in order to deliver the decisions faster, we have delegated more authority to our frontline officers.
Also, as we move forward, we have created new positions called issues resolution officers. Throughout the department, staff members are deeply concerned about giving top-quality service to veterans. Our most recent client satisfaction survey confirms that 80 per cent of Canadian Forces clients we surveyed were satisfied with the service but, on occasion, clients raised concerns that need prompt attention. To meet these needs, we have put in problem resolution officers at headquarters in each region who can react quickly to the concerns of clients, follow up on the status of decisions and take the necessary action to deliver the answer to the client.
We will move forward with modernizing our technology platforms, essentially trying to move into a world of more online operations, so that clients will be able to access things such as applications and other transactions, on a 24- hours-a-day, seven-days-a-week basis.
With regards to communication and outreach, last year we conducted close to 5,000 transition interviews with releasing members. We also take part in pre- and post-deployment briefings, as well as providing seminars by the Second Career Assistance Network. We work with many partners to ensure that we have networks in place to identify and support homeless veterans or those hard to house.
We also employ interesting social marketing tools to reach out to younger veterans and to the youth of Canada. For example, this Veterans Week, we will have a presence on Facebook, YouTube, Twitter and Flickr.
In conclusion, collectively, all these initiatives promise to position us better to support and commemorate modern- day veterans and serving members. As Colonel Blais will agree, there is still much more work to do. I look forward to your observations on how we can best accomplish that work.
Brigadier-General (Ret'd) D. E. Martin, Director General, Personnel and Family Support Services, National Defence: Mr. Chair, senators, this presentation will be a tag-team approach. I will lead off. As Director General of Personnel and Family Support Services, I have a range of responsibilities from family services, fitness, sport, recreation and messes, all the way through to casualty support. Colonel Blais is my Director of Casualty Support Management. That directorate is under my organization.
Thank you for the opportunity to join with Mr. Hillier today to discuss this important issue of providing effective support to the ill and injured Canadian Forces personnel, veterans and their families.
The care of the ill and injured, both during and beyond the end of their service careers, is a responsibility that the leadership of the Canadian Forces takes seriously. I am pleased to state that, although our current system is not perfect, I think we have made great progress over the past few years and we continue to innovate and seek solutions to issues as they arise and are brought to our attention.
In addition to medical care that is second to none, the Canadian Forces offers a wide variety of social and financial programs and assistance for those suffering from both physical and mental health issues, as well as for their families. These programs also extend to families of deceased military personnel.
Some of these programs include peer support for those suffering from mental health issues; disability compensation for reservists injured as a result of their service; social work and chaplain support; benefits to modify homes and vehicles for those suffering debilitating injuries; military family resource centres; transition assistance for those leaving the military; and financial planning assistance, to name but a few.
In addition, access to a number of funds and charitable organizations has been established to assist seriously ill and injured personnel to secure quality-of-life-related items that cannot be provided at public expense.
To ensure no potential gaps arise in the care when an individual leaves the military and transitions to the care of Veterans Affairs Canada, the two departments work closely together to harmonize the standards of care. Every possible effort is made to verify that there is no point in the transition period where an individual is caught between systems.
This work begins at the highest levels, and an example is the VAC-DND Steering Committee, which meets today, co-chaired by the Canadian Forces Chief of Military Personnel and assistant deputy ministers from Veterans Affairs Canada. This forum allows for bilateral decision-making and guidance to senior staff on issues that affect both departments.
Colonel Gérard J. Blais, Director, Casualty Support Management, National Defence: The collaborative and consultative approach is encouraged down to the regional levels, and is one of the cornerstone concepts of the Joint Personnel Support Unit and its network of Integrated Personnel Support Centres. This new capability was launched in March 2009. Staff members from both departments work hand in hand down to the local level to ensure a progressive return to work for the ill and injured.
If a return to full duties within their Canadian Forces occupation or other suitable occupation is not possible, staff members work diligently to provide the individual with a smooth transition from military to civilian life. These centres offer a number of critical core services to ill and injured personnel. These areas include outreach, advocacy, return to work, and casualty tracking. Casualty tracking is a key component in the capture of data critical to the necessary and continuous evaluation of the current casualty management model. This tracking enhances our ability to provide an effective response to identified problem areas.
This comprehensive performance measurement framework includes both quantitative and qualitative data to ensure that the program is effective in both financial terms and in offering service personnel the services they require and deserve.
Veterans Affairs Canada and DND are also partners in initiatives such as the highly successful operational stress injury social support program. The departments actively pursue opportunities for harmonization such as the spectrum of care for both departments and a three-party partnership with the Commonwealth War Graves Commission for the national military cemetery.
Every effort is made to ensure that programs and initiatives are not duplicated. There is daily contact between the Canadian Forces director of casualty support management and Veterans Affairs management collocated in the same building to ensure that issues are dealt with as they arise and are escalated as appropriate.
[Translation]
The care of the ill and injured and support to families of the fallen is one of the Chief of Defence Staff's highest priorities.
[English]
We will continue to leave no stone unturned in attempting to ensure we get it right and that we work collaboratively with Veterans Affairs Canada to meet the needs of the ill and injured.
The Chair: Thank you, Colonel Blais and General Martin.
We will proceed directly to questions.
Senator Wallin: I want to thank Colonel Blais who took a lot of his personal time to show us how these systems are now working. I will not go into all the acronyms because they give us all a headache. These programs are to help our returning soldiers and our soon-to-be veterans. From what I can see with my own eyes, there seems to be real progress in how these programs are working.
Colonel Blais, can you briefly walk through how the programs work? We have had discussion in the committee about what happens when soldiers come back. Do they still have the status of a soldier? How does that transition occur? When does Veterans Affairs Canada kick in?
I also want to hear from all of you on the question of the lump sum. We also discussed this question with the troops at Petawawa.
Col. Blais: When individuals return from Afghanistan, if they are injured, the medical determination is made at that point. If the injury is relatively serious, they are assigned a temporary medical category that normally lasts six months. At that point, their commanding officer will refer the individual to the Joint Personnel Support Unit. If there is any indication that the injury period will be longer than six months, the person is posted and belongs to the Joint Personnel Support Unit.
Once there, the system works well because everyone now works together. Previously, a lot of people on the bases accomplished a lot of good work, but the efforts were not coordinated. Now we have people in one spot who are dedicated to doing nothing except looking after all the non-clinical needs of these individuals. First, we place them in a return-to-work program. That placement is accomplished in consultation with their physician and their former commanding officer. If the individual has a serious injury, perhaps at the beginning, their return-to-work program will consist of only going to the gym and working on their rehabilitation.
However, as they move through the system, we reintegrate them into their unit, if possible. If that integration is not possible, we find other gainful employment on the base. If their support network, or better care, is in another location, we have the authority to post them physically to another part of the country where either their family support network is located or the best care for them is located.
Senator Wallin: At what point does the discussion occur about what happens next? They are not eligible to stay in the force, they can stay but they have to take a different job or they have the option of taking a lump sum payment. All of us know that there has been lots of debate about the lump sum. At the age of 19, $250,000 seems like a lot of money. It is not a lot if they have to live a life on it. Can you further connect the dots?
Col. Blais: I can. The good news about the disability award is that it is available to individuals as soon as they come back. Once individuals are injured, they are eligible to make application for that award to Veterans Affairs Canada immediately. They can receive that money while still in uniform. That portion is the good news portion.
Regarding how an individual's future is determined, the individual receives a temporary medical category until such time as the medical condition stabilizes. At that point, the physician assigns a permanent category. If that category means that the individual no longer meets the physical fitness or health requirements for his or her occupation, the file goes to the directorate of military career administration. The directorate reviews the limitations against what the individual is able to do. If they still have a health profile such that they can perform another occupation in the Canadian Forces, they are given the opportunity to transfer to that occupation. If they do not wish to make that transfer, or if their health profile is such that they cannot, they ultimately are released.
However, if they can still perform some form of employment, they can be retained for up to three years prior to being released.
Senator Wallin: Do you want to start on the lump sum payment or do you want to see if there are questions before we wrestle with that issue?
The Chair: Perhaps we should go to other questioners. They may have other areas to explore. However, we want to hear your opinion of the pros and cons of a lump sum versus the periodic pension payment.
Senator Banks: Mr. Hillier, I think the last time we had the pleasure of your company was in Charlottetown. We were grateful for the tour you gave us on that occasion. It was enjoyable and useful.
This question is sort of a lump sum question. General Martin raised the matter of disability compensation for reservists who are injured. Is that disability compensation, in whatever form, exactly the same for reservists as it is for permanent members of the force?
Brig.-Gen. Martin: I will ask the colonel to provide detail.
Col. Blais: Compensation is different, but there is good reason for that. Anyone in the regular force who is injured continues to receive full salary while the individual continues to serve. For reservists on temporary service who is injured as a result of their service, they receive the salary they had at the time they were injured until they fully recover, until such time that they can return to school — if that is what they do or until they are released from the Canadian Forces.
The disability compensation package is an extra protection for reservists. It is not required for the regular force because as regular force members continue to serve, they continue to be paid.
Senator Banks: We might come back to that point when discuss the question of lump sum payments.
Everyone here is delighted with the policy that injured soldiers are kept in the service for at least until certain adjudications are made. Is that policy relatively recent? Is it codified anywhere or is that something susceptible to a new policy change?
Col. Blais: No, it has been policy for some time now. In a somewhat selfish manner, the Canadian Forces do not want to lose people able to provide good services. The three-year period of retention serves the individual. Obviously, it gives individuals a period of time where they can sort out their lives before they transition. It is also good for the Canadian Forces because we can retain someone fully trained to provide service for an extra three-year period. That extra service is also good news for us.
Senator Banks: Who makes that decision?
Col. Blais: It is made by the director of military career administration in consultation with the commanding officer, the individual and the medical team.
Senator Banks: Who makes the decision?
Col. Blais: The decision itself is made by the director of military career administration.
Senator Banks: You referred to the easy transition between the Department of National Defence, and the Department of Veterans Affairs.
We have heard from time to time that the transition is not all that seamless or easy. Are you satisfied with the present situation that you referred to as easy? We have heard that the situation is not simply that on Thursday I am in DND and on Friday morning my files are tracked down the street to the next guy, but I still keep going. We have heard that situation is not always the case. Are you satisfied that it is the case?
Brig.-Gen. Martin: I will comment first, before I hand off to Colonel Blais.
Colonel Blais is responsible for the Joint Personnel Support Unit and the Integrated Personnel Support Centres. This initiative will improve what you are talking about because it will ensure that we have a coordinated national approach to the care of the ill and injured, which includes setting up a close partnership with Veterans Affairs Canada for that transition. Currently, co-ordination occurs at an integrated centre that is physically collocated in the same place, or nearby. All the services that the injured require are in close proximity. The primary job of our full-time staff in these units is to become expert at facilitating and coordinating support. It includes the hand-off to the Department of Veterans Affairs when the decision is made that the individual will transition to civilian life. The whole construct that we are moving toward is to improve that process. We are in the middle of the implementation with 19 sites and more to come. I will hand off to Colonel Blais for more detail.
Col. Blais: The positive point is that case managers from both Veterans Affairs Canada and the Department of National Defence work together. Our current trigger point is six months because an individual is notified at minimum, six months prior to their release for medical reasons from the Canadian Forces. At that point, the case managers from VAC and DND sit simultaneously with the individual to begin effecting that transfer. There is a six-month block during which they work hand-in-hand to ensure that when individuals leave the forces, they are comfortable with the approach.
Mr. Hillier: Veterans Affairs Canada is comfortable with this arrangement. As the colonel noted, the individual client is not simply handed from one department to the other because the case managers of both departments work together toward the transition. We are on site and, through our existing information systems, we have early notification of casualties. In a worst-case scenario, we are made aware early on so that we can prepare our work with colleagues and the assistant officer at the Canadian Forces to make the intervention at an appropriate time for the family.
It has become much better and, with Integrated Personnel Support Units functioning across the country, it will continue to improve.
Senator Banks: Describe the relationship between the Joint Personnel Support Unit, which is overarching, and the Integrated Personnel Support Centres. What is the umbilical connection?
Brig.-Gen. Martin: The connection is as follows: The Joint Personnel Support Unit is under the Canadian Forces with a commanding officer, who currently is Colonel Blais. The JPSU has detachments across the country, each with a detachment commander. The long-term ill and injured are posted to this unit of the Canadian Forces. At the Integrated Personnel Support Centre we bring all the support pieces together, from Veterans Affairs Canada, the military family support centres and others. These pieces can be virtual, in some cases, and they form the IPSC. To each location, we bring the responsible providers together to form an IPSC.
Senator Banks: The Joint Personnel Support Unit is part of the Integrated Personnel Support Centre. Is that right?
Brig.-Gen. Martin: Yes.
Col. Blais: Basically, yes, that is right. The JPSU provides the administrative location where we can post a member physically. A member is posted to a unit and, for services, the member reports to the Integrated Personnel Support Centre.
Senator Downe: It is my understanding that medically released troops have priority for placement in the public service. Is that correct?
Col. Blais: That is true, sir.
Senator Downe: Is that placement at the discretion of the deputy minister of a department, or is it through the Public Service Commission?
Col. Blais: It is done through the Public Service Commission.
Senator Downe: Do all departments participate? Have all departments employed medically released troops?
Col. Blais: No.
Senator Downe: Might I assume that some departments participate more than others?
Col. Blais: Yes.
Senator Downe: Have we made inquiries to the deputy ministers of non-participating departments as to why they do not participate in the program?
Col. Blais: Not really; for the most part, I do not believe that the deputy minister would be aware of participation. The number of members affected is not great because numerous alternatives are available to them, such as civilian employment or retirement. The individual member leaving the forces makes application and participates in the competitive process. All things being equal, when they are as suitable as another candidate, they will be given the job.
Senator Downe: They have priority placement.
Col. Blais: Yes.
Senator Downe: As you are aware, a number of years ago the legislation was changed to delegate authority for hiring to the deputy ministers of departments, as opposed to the Public Service Commission, where it used to be. My concern is that some of these deputy ministers should be told that a priority of the government is that these medically released troops have every opportunity in every department. We might want to follow up that issue with the committee, chair.
Mr. Hillier, in your presentation you indicated that there are 219,000 clients for Veterans Affairs Canada.
Mr. Hillier: That is correct.
Senator Downe: That number includes the current 60,000 Canadian Forces troops.
Mr. Hillier: That is correct.
Senator Downe: My next question is on the lump sum payment. I have checked the notes and, in 2005 when we considered the New Veterans Charter in the Senate committee, I raised the concern about not only the lump sum payments to people who are reasonably young but also whether it was an effort on behalf of the government to contain costs because Veterans Affairs Canada had ever-increasing health care costs. To this end, I have tabled written questions in the Senate, but I cannot seem to obtain an answer as to whether this lump sum is a cost savings for the government, a cost containment issue, or simply an option for the reasons that were suggested at the time. We were all concerned. I and others raised the matter of veterans with war medals begging on the streets in the U.S. because their money has been lost. We have not seen that situation to a large degree in Canada because of our continuous payments, but the lump sum payment has changed that.
Can you or another witness advise the committee of the financial implications of the lump sum payment? Is it a cost savings to the government?
Mr. Hillier: Perhaps we should look at the lump sum payment, chair. We need to think about why we moved forward with the New Veterans Charter. As I said in my notes, the New Veterans Charter, which is multi-faceted, is all about wellness. The system in place before provided a monthly annuity, but that is about all it provided, with the exception of health benefits related to a pension condition. Under the old system, cheques were handed out and members were told to come back if their condition worsened. The New Veterans Charter is a fundamental change in that it is based on modern-day rehabilitation practices and, therefore, is about people becoming well and being able to transition from a career and life in the military, which might have been cut short due to an injury, to a continuing military career or to a career outside the military.
When people raise the issue of the lump sum, I think that sometimes they are not thinking of the whole package, because the package includes vocational rehabilitation. In cases where, sadly, the veteran is too ill or too injured to avail themselves of our programs, those programs are available to the surviving family.
I also point out that as we look at these particular issues, something that is lost sometimes is called earnings loss. When a veteran cannot be rehabilitated due to the serious nature of the injuries, and if they have gone through the various treatments and rehabilitation but still are not able to hold a job in society, if I can put it that way, we provide earnings-loss protection to age 65. This protection is not about a lump sum but more about fundamental wellness, and that the goal must be rehabilitation.
As I mentioned in my notes, this package is about providing financial security, rehabilitation and job counselling. They cannot take one without the other; the package is built on modern disability management practices so that we do not have veterans who basically receive an amount of money each month but do not receive a much broader package of services.
I also point out that as you look at the lump sum amount, we also provide financial counselling free of charge for those who wish to avail themselves of that service. However, at the end of the day, if someone serves their country and they are injured, they are entitled to various benefits and services.
I ask the committee, as you look at this issue, to focus on the New Veterans Charter and all the elements of the charter and what we are trying to achieve collectively. I believe that we are all here to ensure that those who are injured in the service of their country will be able to be rehabilitated, and will be able to carry on their life either in the Canadian Forces or in society in the broader sense.
That was the philosophy of the New Veterans Charter and it remains the philosophy of the New Veterans Charter today. If we look at the charter holistically, I think we will see better outcomes of people being rehabilitated and reintegrated into society.
The Chair: Can I ask Mr. Hillier for a clarification regarding income protection? If I had an occupation that required the use of my hands, for which I was paid, let us say, $70,000 a year, and because of my injury I cannot use my hands to perform that work anymore and the best I can manage is a job for $50,000 a year, does that mean your income protection pays me $20,000?
Mr. Hillier: No, it does not. That person would work with a counsellor and their various aptitudes and abilities would be reassessed. The individual could be retrained, at the cost to the Government of Canada, to perform a job where they may not need to use their hands. They may have other skills and aptitudes that would allow them not to follow, necessarily, the profession that they were following, but they could be retrained for another profession.
In the instances where retraining is not an option, where the extent of their injuries is such that they cannot be retrained, a payment is made through the earnings loss program. I do not have the exact dollar figure, but this payment is a fixed amount that they are paid, as I mentioned, up to the period of time where they can be reintegrated in terms of having a job, or to age 65.
At the end of the day, no one is left behind. If someone simply cannot work because of the nature of their injuries, the earnings loss program will kick in. I stress that this program is in addition to the lump sum payment. There is no relationship between the lump sum payment and the earnings loss.
I also want to remind us all, because it has been three years now, that one of the keys to the New Veterans Charter is that it is based on need. In the old system, they had to prove that they had a disability before they could access other services from the department. Now they access the services. We do not wait for adjudication or a lump sum. If someone presents themselves to the department and they have a service-related need, then that need is taken care of without having to go through the gateway of proving that there is a disability at a certain extent.
The Chair: Mr. Hillier, I am sorry, but the program is still unclear to me. What is the program called again?
Mr. Hillier: Earnings loss.
The Chair: Essentially, as I understand your evidence, it is a retraining program. If I cannot use my hands or one hand anymore, you will train me for another occupation?
Mr. Hillier: Yes.
The Chair: Then if I can work at that occupation, off I go?
Mr. Hillier: That is correct.
The Chair: But there is no correlation between what I was earning before and what I can earn now, after the retraining?
Mr. Hillier: That is correct, senator. The amount that can be paid is fixed in legislation. For further clarification, to make sure we are on the same page: The veteran will receive the earnings allowance during their period of retraining. In addition to the cost of the training borne by the Government of Canada, the veteran is entitled to this amount. If veterans are not able to avail themselves of that retraining because of the extent of their injuries, that benefit can be passed to their spouses, who can access training. Also, we provide benefits with regard to child care, which allows for one of the parties to leave the home to receive training. That is why I say the New Veterans Charter is a much more comprehensive suite of programs than simply a lump sum amount.
Senator Downe: After three years, I am curious if any requests have come to the department from family or dependents where the original recipient of the lump sum payment has lost the money through some unfortunate investment or whatever. Has the department received any requests from the family or dependents for additional funding on top of the lump sum?
Mr. Hillier: It has not, to my knowledge. I am not aware of any.
Senator Banks: I am sorry for all supplementary questions, but this area is new to me.
With respect to the income replacement that you are talking about, I gather that it is one amount, a flat amount?
Mr. Hillier: That is correct.
Senator Banks: That amount applies to everyone?
Mr. Hillier: That is correct.
Senator Banks: It applies to everyone, regardless of whether they are, let us say, a corporal in training or a medical doctor?
Mr. Hillier: I believe so. I am more of a generalist, senator. My colleague, Ken Miller, can give you more detailed information.
Senator Banks: Mr. Miller, is that income replacement amount the same regardless of what their trade was, and regardless of what their rank was? If a general officer is injured and requires income replacement, is the general officer's income replacement the same as a master corporal?
Ken Miller, Director, Policy, Veterans Affairs Canada: No, the amount that is fixed in legislation is a percentage, not a dollar value. The program pays 75 per cent of the pre-release salary.
Senator Day: That is seventy-five per cent of pre-release salary for how long?
Mr. Miller: It is until the age of 65, if they are unable to earn at least two thirds of their pre-release salary.
Senator Day: It is not only during their rehabilitation period?
Mr. Miller: No, it is during their rehabilitation if they are able to re-engage successfully in the workplace and if, as a result, they are able to earn at least two thirds of their previous salary. If they cannot, then they are eligible to continue at 75 per cent, and that percentage is indexed forward on an annual basis to age 65.
Senator Day: That is helpful.
Senator Dallaire: That amount of money is taxed?
Mr. Miller: Yes, it is.
Senator Dallaire: Can an individual receive a lump sum and also that supplemental benefit?
Mr. Miller: Yes, absolutely; the two are not connected. They are independent benefits.
Senator Dallaire: You have now had the program for about three and a half years. It took a year to put it into motion. How mature do you feel the New Veterans Charter is in terms of the vast numbers of programs that are offered at Veterans Affairs Canada? As sort of a qualifier, how much retraining has gone on in Veterans Affairs Canada amongst the staff in Charlottetown and in the field to handle this new charter and its programs?
Mr. Hillier: First, as was noted in my slide deck, there has been learning, primarily with respect to the programs. The key is what we call the case managers, and these people work in our district offices. These people are at the integrated support units and, in fact, we have worked with them on issues of modern-day case management. We have freed up some of their responsibilities to give them more time so they can spend more time with each case.
When the New Veterans Charter was brought in, tens of thousands of hours — I do not recall the number — of training was given to staff throughout the department. The training effort was the largest that I can remember in my 15 years with the department. However, I think it is fair to say that as we make the transition, we are learning new things. Some of these cases are probably more difficult than what we may have thought.
As you will note in my slide deck, in terms of the individuals that are involved with the rehabilitation programs, 69 per cent of those individuals had been out of the Canadian Forces for some time. The programs are not only for those who are currently serving, or currently coming back from rotations. There seems to have been what one might call, a pent-up need for these types of services.
I feel that we are moving ahead. When I made reference in my slide deck about modernization, part of this process is giving additional delegated authority so that when the case manager sees a need, whether it be in the integrated support unit or in one of our district offices, we try to minimize the number of approvals the case goes through so we can address needs faster.
I think expertise is developed maybe a little more quickly in some locations than others. I will explain why. Consider our network of service locations across the country. I will take Valcartier as one example, our Quebec City office. Approximately 17 people work full-time in Valcartier; 70 per cent of the clients of the Quebec district office are modern-day veterans. Staff are acquiring a lot more experience.
In some of our other offices across the country, the complete reverse is true. There are offices that are not near Canadian Forces bases where 70 per cent of the clients are veterans of the Second World War or survivors. One way staff acquire experience is by having more experience and more exposure. We are working to share best practices, and we have a group of people who are dedicated to case management. Also, we have undertaken work at a number of test sites to ensure that we follow what one might call modern-day disability management. When clients present, either they walk in off the street or a referral comes through our colleagues, the case manager needs to ensure that veterans are fully aware of the services and programs that are available to them.
The reality is that most people do not think about this service until they are injured. We need to continue to improve the knowledge level so that people and their families understand that if something happens, there is a safety net.
Senator Dallaire: The backlog should not be surprising because we have been taking casualties since 1991, and the program has taken nearly 20 years to implement. There is a certain impatience relating to all the years we worked at trying to bring in reform and bring in the charter. The program has been operating three and a half years and significant comments have come my way. I am sure comments must be coming your way through the national client satisfaction surveys, or your proactive screening units and so on, regarding the still-not-mature processes or the contracted-out processes meeting the challenges of these soldiers who are injured.
That is one challenge, but there is also the need to meet the challenges of reservists, who may be in Matin and have little or no outreach knowledge of what is happening. That situation applies to the veterans who have been suffering for the last 15 years and have not found the response yet within the system.
How long will you be in this maturing process and when will you be able to give a level of real satisfaction to the complexities of the charter?
I am fully aware of the philosophy, and because the philosophy is different, I would have expected you to say not only has training changed but the whole outfit has changed its philosophy in regards to services provided. I hope that change is taking place.
How much longer on-the-job training and other training is required to mature the programs? Are your case managers overwhelmed?
Mr. Hillier: There are several points there, senator, so I want to make sure I cover all your points.
Today, we are meeting the needs of the modern-day veteran. I honestly believe that. We have invested in training. We have received professional assistance as necessary. However, you are right, the change is a cultural one. The Department of Veterans Affairs is celebrating its sixty-fifth anniversary, and for 62 of those 65 years, the system was based on making a payment. I am being black and white here, but the reality is that the system was much different.
I believe that the culture is changing because our staff is fully committed to modern-day veterans. Some of our staff members have served their country in various ways, either as a full-time member or as a reservist. We have the spouses of veterans.
To address Senator Downe's point, we are one of the departments that have hired some of the medically released individuals. I do not have a number for those employees but I know they have been hired because I have hired them myself. I know that hiring is factual. We are hiring those people.
With regards to being overwhelmed in service delivery, my mantra is, the right number of people in the right place with the right skill sets. That is why, as we make this transition, and to make sure that we are ready to ensure that we are ready to deal with whatever may come our way, we have been staffing up. We have been hiring additional case managers.
We have put additional case managers into Petawawa, into Gagetown, into Valcartier, into Halifax, and so on. Sadly, because of the mortality of the Second World War veterans, where we are seeing a lesser demand for services, we are not filling jobs in some of those cities to free up the resources to move to the areas where we have more need.
In addition, to help our staff members deal with the most complex cases, in some cases we are using critical care managers. In other words, we are providing our case managers with extra professional help from outside of government to work with clients who, because of their needs, at some point need a one-on-one relationship.
Senator Dallaire: My questions are long, your answers are also, but we are working on that.
Are you constrained in any way, shape or form in implementing the full breadth of the charter, and catching up and getting ahead of the curve in some of the complexities at this time? Do you have any constraints whatsoever?
Mr. Hillier: No.
Senator Dallaire: None?
Mr. Hillier: None.
Senator Dallaire: No money, no person-years in any way, shape or form?
Mr. Hillier: I have enough resources to deliver the services that I am mandated to deliver. It is my job to determine the right number of people, the right place and the right skill set.
Senator Dallaire: Fine; in those new joint arrangements — of which one was already tried out in Valcartier for a number of years and now has matured — do your computers talk?
Col. Blais: No, they do not, sir.
Senator Dallaire: When do the files move over from the medical people and all that other stuff? Why are the computers not compatible? I attempted that over 10 years ago, when I was assistant deputy minister, personnel. Why are those two systems not compatible?
Mr. Hillier: It is interesting to note that only a few blocks from here at the Crown Plaza Hotel we were having that discussion this morning. Why it has not been done for many years I will leave to those who were in those jobs for those many years.
However, I think one thing we must look at is the pan-Canadian health record that plays into this whole situation. In terms of looking at this issue, it is a huge undertaking — as you can appreciate, senator, having had the previous job you had — being responsible for human resources. One thing we may need to look at is not so much the issue of interoperability but rather being able to look into the other person's computer system.
Senator Dallaire: Whatever.
Mr. Hillier: That way we can avoid some of the capital costs of having to build, and we discussed some of those issues this morning.
Senator Dallaire: And somebody —
The Chair: Senator Dallaire, can you wait?
Senator Dallaire: Yes, I will wind up rapidly.
Do the career managers accept the injured into their classifications and trades when they are already overwhelmed by demands of having fully effective troops deployed in the field? Are people not being moved out sooner than the three years because there is no opportunity to find them any employment because the trades are already overstocked with injured?
Col. Blais: That is a good news story, sir. There are now three career managers assigned specifically to the ill and injured. Anyone who is posted to the JPSU is assigned to those three career managers. They work directly with my staff, although not for me. They work directly with my staff so that we find opportunities for these folks. If we need to move them across the country somewhere to put them in a position where they are able to work, we will do that.
Senator Dallaire: Thank you for your positive responses.
Senator Day: Mr. Chair, I want to deal with one of the Senator Dallaire's points. You do not know why computers have not been made compatible over the last 10 years, at least, as you say, so that staff can read the information on the other computer. Now you know what you want to do. Is fund allocation preventing you from doing it?
Mr. Hillier: We all know that when we enter the world of information technology, it can become expensive, but I would say that it will have to be a matter of priorities. Various things need to be done, and I think there is a process for deciding what those priorities are, particularly with our VAC-DND Steering Committee. I will not be presumptuous of my colleagues and whether those types of investments will be made.
However, I come back to the point that anything we do needs to be built into the overall pan-Canadian health record, particularly when we look at the reservists, which was noted here, and also the fact that people have records.
One might call part of it, interoperability. One part might also be view options. Also, if we look at how bandwidth has gotten much cheaper in Canada today, there may be some interim lower-cost options, such as putting something on a scanner in a particular part of the country and then having it transmitted by PC network and printed out. People are looking at those things, but I think it would be inappropriate for me to give you a date as to when we might be interoperable.
Senator Day: I am not asking you to give me a date, but for you to tell me you can do the job better if you have more funds, and if these computers were, to a degree, interoperable. That is why we have these hearings. We do not want you to say you are doing absolutely the best job you can do when you could do a better job if you had more funds to make these computers interoperable. You say over the past 10 years computers have not been interoperable, but you cannot speak for someone who is not here.
Tell us what we can do to influence the process that will help you do a better job.
Mr. Hillier: There is no doubt that the speed at which information can be passed between two departments increases the efficiency. I think that can be said about any organization, both private and public sector.
From my experience, having been the assistant deputy minister of corporate, and also the chief information officer on some of these things across government, sometimes the issue is not about money. It is sometimes about the configurations of the various systems and whether interoperability is the right answer. Somewhere along the line there must be a cost benefit.
I will give an extreme example to make a point. If we were to spend $20 million to reduce the turnaround time of a pension application by only one day, probably one would say that investment would not be wise.
To reiterate, we are looking at various options. The two computer systems that we have at DND and VAC are different, but I caution people because I think there has been enough experience in the public and private sector with these large computer initiatives that did not always work out the way people wanted them to.
Senator Day: I was not suggesting improvements relating only to computers. I want you to think broadly. How can you do a better job and how can we help you in influencing the decisions so you can serve the veteran better? That is what we are looking for.
You indicated during your presentation that you have these new people called problem resolution officers.
Mr. Hillier: Yes, sir.
Senator Day: I would think that everybody who works for Veterans Affairs Canada is a problem resolution officer. Why do you have a small category of people you call problem resolution officers?
Mr. Hillier: I am happy to respond. I will give you a case in point. I have approximately 125 people across the country that respond to veterans' phone calls. These people are not the case managers. They are individuals who answer questions such as, where is my medical reimbursement or my travel reimbursement; or what is going on with my application?
Sometimes in an organization of 2,100 people — which I have direct responsibility for — things go off the rails. We would like to think it is perfect, but it is not. Somebody did not understand that part of the training, something was left on a desk or whatever.
To give that added degree of service when one of our contact agents feels that something has gone wrong, we pass the issue to a problem resolution person. This person operates with my full authority. As a matter of fact, I brought them to Charlottetown and talked to them myself. I said, when you receive an inquiry, when something appears to have gone off the rails, you operate with the authority of the assistant deputy minister to find that file, that letter, and return an answer to the veteran. I might call it a fail-safe, but in any organization where you have —
Senator Wallin: Customer service?
Mr. Hillier: In any organization where you have millions of transactions in a year, some of them will not always be as positive as we would like them to be, and that is why we put these officers in place.
What I said to the folks is that, if this is something that has been outstanding, I do not care if we have to send people to search the files and go through the bays, we will find the file and return with an answer.
What I have said to these individuals is: I want you to be like a dog with a bone. When you have a file, it is not finished until the veteran receives an answer, which may be that he or she is not eligible. If we build our service model on the philosophy of providing the right answer to the client at the earliest possible date, then, in fact, that philosophy will drive some of these services.
I have travelled across the country. I have been on Canadian Forces bases. My management teams take place there. I have been in labs and I was recently on HMCS Montreal. One thing I say to my staff is that if they did not come to work today to help a veteran, they are probably working for the wrong organization.
Senator Day: Can I ask one more question? I have a thousand questions I would like to ask.
The Chair: I know.
Senator Day: I will ask one more. These questions all relate to clarification of points from your presentation. You said there were 5,000 transition exit interviews. How many retired from the Armed Forces?
Mr. Hillier: I do not have that number. Every person who retires is offered a transition interview, whether that person is medically released or retires.
Senator Day: You cannot tell us what percentage of those retired actually took you up on that offer?
Mr. Hillier: I can provide the figures to you. I do not have them off the top of my head, but I will be pleased to provide them to you.
Senator Day: These people are not people who necessarily had a problem? They are people who accepted your invitation to have the transition, and you told them about what services were available?
Mr. Hillier: Yes; I also point out that these are reservists too, not only regular force members.
Senator Day: If you have more complete numbers of those that had the opportunity for this transition and those that took it up, I am interested in knowing that information.
Mr. Hillier: I will be happy to provide the numbers to the clerk.
The Chair: I appreciate your cooperation. Time is running short, but I think I have good news possibly. I want to consult afterwards with my colleagues.
I am not sure that we have finished this interesting discussion. We appreciate the input that you have given us, but there are such things as the perceived inequities between the Pension Act and the New Veterans Charter. I do not know that we have explored those today.
In my own mind, I am not sure I understand the new systems that you have for picking up people whose illnesses become apparent only a long time after they leave the Canadian Forces. I see Mr. Bouchard in the audience today. There is an outstanding question that we have with Mr. Bouchard, as we have with Vice-Admiral Denis Rouleau — we do not have time to take evidence today, Mr. Bouchard — dealing with the question of an alleged clawback from the SISIP payments. Both Admiral Rouleau and Mr. Bouchard promised an answer as to the cost of going back to 1976. It is on the record that the costs would be about $300 million if we went back only to 2000. These issues are outstanding that — Mr. Bouchard is signalling five. Maybe that is $500 million now.
Senator Day: Five minutes.
The Chair: Or five minutes. Obviously, there are still some questions, and I think we are making real progress in improving our understanding of the New Veterans Charter.
Perhaps some or all of you might be available next week. The clerk tells me that next Wednesday, our witnesses unfortunately have had to cancel, so it looks like we have a clean slate. If any of you are available, and colleagues want to pursue this questioning, we can explore this possibility and perhaps invite some of our guests back, including Mr. Bouchard. We can do that next Wednesday. Perhaps you can let the clerk know whether you are available next week at the same time.
The following Wednesday, we have tentatively confirmed Major-General Semianiw, who is chief of military personnel, and Muriel Westmorland, who is the chair of the New Veterans Charter Advisory Group. That meeting will be in two weeks.
With that, I thank you for your participation in the hearing today.
(The committee adjourned.)