Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Aboriginal Peoples
Issue 1 - Evidence - Meeting of March 10, 2010
OTTAWA, Wednesday, March 10, 2010
The Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples met this day at 6:45 p.m., pursuant to rule 88 of the Rules of the Senate, to hold an organizational meeting.
[Translation]
Marcy Zlotnick, Clerk of the Committee: As clerk of your committee, it is my duty to preside over the election of the chair.
I am ready to receive motions to that effect.
[English]
Senator Campbell: I move that Senator St. Germain be chair of the committee.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: I second that motion.
Ms. Zlotnick: Are there any other nominations?
It is moved by the Honourable Senator Campbell that the Honourable Senator St. Germain do take the chair of this committee.
Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Ms. Zlotnick: I declare the motion carried and invite Senator St. Germain to take the chair.
Senator Gerry St. Germain (Chair) in the chair.
The Chair: We now move to the second item on the agenda. I would like someone to move the position of deputy chair.
Senator Patterson: I would like to nominate Senator Dyck to be deputy chair.
Senator Campbell: I second that motion.
The Chair: Any other nominations?
There being no other nominations, I call the question; is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Agreed. Congratulations.
Next is Item 3, the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure. I need a motion to the effect that the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be composed of the chair, deputy chair, and one other member of the committee, to be designated after the usual consultation; and that the subcommittee be empowered to make decisions on behalf of the committee with respect to its agenda, to invite witnesses, and schedule hearings.
Do I have a mover for that item?
Senator Stewart Olsen: I so move.
The Chair: Agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Opposed? Next is Item 4, a motion to publish the committee's proceedings.
Senator Patterson: I so move.
The Chair: It is moved by Senator Patterson:
That the committee publish its proceedings; and
That the chair be authorized to set the number of printed copies to meet demand.
Is it agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Next is Item 5, authorization to hold meetings and to receive evidence when quorum is not present.
Senator Hubley: I so move.
The Chair: It is moved by the Honourable Senator Hubley:
That, pursuant to rule 89, the chair be authorized to hold meetings, to receive and authorize the printing of the evidence when a quorum is not present, provided that a member of the committee from both the government and the opposition be present.
Senator Raine: I second that.
The Chair: Agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Opposed, if any? None.
Next is the financial report.
Senator Dyck: I so move.
The Chair: It is moved by the Honourable Senator Dyck. You have before you a copy of the draft of the first report of the committee, in regards to expenditures and funding. Are there any questions or comments in regards to this draft?
If there are no questions or comments that the committee adopt the draft first report prepared in accordance with rule 104, is it agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Opposed, if any? No.
Next is research staff.
Senator Campbell: I so move.
The Chair: It is moved by the Honourable Senator Campbell:
That the committee ask the Library of Parliament to assign analysts to the committee;
That the chair be authorized to seek authority from the Senate to engage the services of such counsel and technical, clerical, and other personnel as may be necessary for the purpose of the committee's examination and consideration of such bills, subject matters of bills, and estimates as are referred to it;
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be authorized to retain the services of such experts as may be required by the work of the committee;
That the chair, on behalf of the committee, direct the research staff in the preparation of studies, analyses, summaries, and draft reports.
Are there any questions or comments with regards to this motion? There being none, I call the question.
All those in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Opposed, if any? None. Carried.
The next item concerns the authority to commit funds and certify accounts.
It is moved by the Honourable Senator Raine:
That, pursuant to section 7, chapter 3:06 of the Senate Administrative Rules, authority to commit funds be conferred individually on the chair, the deputy chair and the clerk of the committee;
That, pursuant to section 8, chapter 3:06 of the Senate Administrative Rules, authority for certifying accounts payable by the committee be conferred individually on the chair, deputy chair and the clerk of the committee;
That, notwithstanding the foregoing in cases relating to consultants and personnel services, the authority to commit funds and certify accounts be conferred jointly on the chair and deputy chair.
Are there questions or comments?
There being none, is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Carried.
Item 9 concerns travel.
It is moved by the Honourable Senator Poirier:
That the committee empower the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure to designate, as required, one or more members of the committee and/or such staff as may be necessary to travel on assignment on behalf of the committee.
Are there questions or comments? There being none, is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Carried.
Item 10 concerns the designation of members travelling on committee business. It is moved by the Honourable Senator Lovelace Nicholas:
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be authorized to:
1) determine whether any member of committee is on "official business'' for the purposes of paragraph 8(3)(a) of the Senators' Attendance Policy, published in the Journals of the Senate on Wednesday, June 3, 1998; and
2) consider any member of the committee to be on "official business'' if that member is: (a) attending an event or meeting related to the work of the committee; or (b) making a presentation related to the work of the committee; and
That the subcommittee report at the earliest opportunity any decisions taken with respect to the designation of members of the committee travelling on committee business.
Are there questions or comments? Is it agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Carried.
Item 11 concerns travelling and living expenses of witnesses. It is moved by the Honourable Senator Patterson:
That, pursuant to the Senate guidelines for witness expenses, the committee may reimburse reasonable travelling and living expenses for one witness from any one organization and payment will take place upon application, but that the chair be authorized to approve expenses for a second witness should there be exceptional circumstances.
Are there questions or comments? Being none, is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Carried.
Item 12 concerns communications.
It is moved by the Honourable Senator Brazeau:
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be empowered to direct communications officer(s) assigned to the committee in the development of communication plans where appropriate and to request the services of the Senate Communications Directorate for the purpose of their development and implementation;
That the chair be authorized to seek permission from the Senate to permit coverage by electronic media of the committee's public proceedings with the least possible disruption of its hearings;
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be empowered to allow such coverage at its discretion.
Are there questions or comments? Is it agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Carried.
Item 13 concerns time slots for regular meetings. This is for the information of honourable senators. Meeting time slots will be from 9:30 a.m. to 11:30 a.m. on Tuesdays and 6:45 p.m. to 8:45 p.m. on Wednesdays. My understanding for the time change from 4 p.m. to 6:45 p.m. is that senators were leaving the chamber prior to the adjournment, which caused problems. Therefore, they backed everything off 15 minutes right across the board. That is the explanation.
Honourable senators, I welcome Senator Poirier, from New Brunswick, to the committee. As a recent appointee, she brings a vast amount of legislative experience to the Senate.
We look forward to working with you, Senator Poirier.
[Translation]
If you have any questions or problems, call Senator Campbell.
Senator Poirier: Fine, thank you.
[English]
If you have any questions or challenges, we are here to help. The clerk of the committee is Ms. Marcy Zlotnick. We have two research staff from the Library of Parliament; Ms. Tonina Simeone and Ms. Marion Ménard. We have from the Senate Communications Directorate Ms. Ceri Au.
We have managed to achieve an atmosphere of cooperation in the best interests of the constituency that we serve: Aboriginal peoples. I hope to continue in that vein. Prior to becoming chair of the committee, I worked closely with Senator Sibbeston. We achieved a fair amount.
Did everyone receive a copy of the chronology of what has transpired in committee and some of the studies that we have completed? Some have become legislation. The greatest honour for a committee is to have its reports mirrored by the government in the legislation. That happened with one of the committee's studies, and I am sure that we have an excellent chance of repeating the honour if we continue to work in that way.
We have a completed report on Indian Act elections. It will be distributed to all committee members so that they may read it before it is presented in the Senate. The report is fairly straightforward, not complicated. We should allow our new committee members a chance to read it and to express an opinion.
The steering committee will be composed of Senator Dyck, Senator Brazeau and I. Senator Brazeau, are you prepared to carry the torch on the steering committee?
Senator Brazeau: Absolutely.
The Chair: That is great.
What else do we have, Ms. Zlotnick?
Ms. Zlotnick: That is all we need to cover this evening.
The Chair: Colleagues, we will meet as a steering committee next Tuesday. Next Wednesday, we will go back to a full committee meeting and we will try to come forward with recommendations. Are all members aware of the steering committee members?
Senator Dyck: Can we have a teleconference?
Senator Raine: We will leave and you can have a meeting right now.
The Chair: We could have a steering committee tomorrow, could we not? We could start this process. Are you okay for tomorrow, Senator Brazeau?
Senator Brazeau: What time?
The Chair: I do not know.
Senator Brazeau: Then I do not know.
The Chair: We are just discussing it. I have no committees tomorrow. I had my committee today — the Banking, Trade and Commerce Committee. Have you any others committees tomorrow?
Senator Brazeau: No.
The Chair: I have a meeting at 11:30 a.m. Do you want to meet at 10:30 a.m.?
Senator Brazeau: How long do you expect the meeting to last?
The Chair: As long as we want, but it would allow us to start the process.
Senator Brazeau: I am available at 10:30 a.m.
The Chair: We can meet at 10:30 a.m. as I have another meeting at 11:30 a.m.
Senator Brazeau: I have another meeting at 11:00 a.m.
Senator Dyck: I have a Social Affairs Committee meeting at 10:30. It is an organizational meeting.
The Chair: You will be advised as to whether there is a meeting on Tuesday or Wednesday.
Are there any questions?
Senator Hubley: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. First, I would like to congratulate our leadership. I think we are in very good hands again. Just before we get into our future studies, I would like to propose that we do a fairly short study on Aboriginal education, but from kindergarten to Grade 12.
Since that is a study we have identified as important to Aboriginal people, I would like us to consider that early learning portion. I think it is something that is very important to the outcome to our future studies in education. I would like to put in a proposal for your steering committee.
Senator Campbell: I agree with Senator Hubley. We have heard time and time again from witnesses here — including the grand chief — of the importance of early childhood learning and the difficulties in the communities. I would urge you to consider that, also.
Senator Raine: In the budget there was mention of quite a few things to do with First Nations. Education is obviously a big focus, but there is mention of some tripartite agreements that are in place. I wonder if we might start by having a look at the different jurisdictions, and do a catalogue of that before we go further and fill in the blanks.
The Chair: That makes sense because these tripartite agreements bring not only an educational component but they also bring a cultural and spiritual component to them.
Senator Stewart Olsen: I have one suggestion, as well. I know that the Throne Speech mentioned the House of Commons will be doing something regarding the missing Aboriginal women. I wonder if we could ask that a subcommittee of this committee be included in whatever they are working on. I am not sure if that can be done, but I certainly think we could help with whatever they will be doing. I think our expertise could be of use to that committee.
The Chair: Are you suggesting that whatever special committee or inquiry takes place in regards to missing women that we as a committee become involved in this process, if at all possible?
Senator Stewart Olsen: Yes.
The Chair: Okay. All right.
Senator Patterson: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I also agree that education should be our priority, not only because it is intrinsically important but because we know it has been a theme of the new grand chief. It is also reflected in the Throne Speech, which says to ". . . work hand-in-hand with Aboriginal communities and provinces and territories to reform and strengthen education, and to support student success and provide greater hope and opportunity.''
Clearly, I think that is something we should look at. We do have something to look at in the Northland School Division.
The Chair: As an example?
Senator Patterson: Of course, it is not a great story in that the school division. It represents 23 largely First Nation schools in Alberta, Saskatchewan and British Columbia. It was dissolved because of poor performance compared to provincial averages. However, I am interested in the fact that, apparently, an agreement was recently signed between Canada and the province which may show us something.
The Chair: Are you talking about the Province of Alberta?
Senator Patterson: Yes. The federal government promised to create a First Nations education centre in Alberta that will coordinate First Nations education initiatives across the province. They agreed on the development of a long-term strategic plan to improve First Nation student results in Alberta schools.
I think we should have a look at that to see what lessons it might hold, not that it is necessarily the solution or the only solution. I also agree with Senator Hubley: We should focus on kindergarten to Grade 12; which are the critical years in learning. If we do a good job with kindergarten to Grade 12, one would hope that the post-secondary would take care of itself. We have the situation with the First Nations University of Canada which we may not want to get involved in, really. I am not saying it is not important, but I think we could have more productive work if we looked at kindergarten to Grade 12, or even before.
Senator Raine: Yes, we should look at the Head Start program.
Senator Patterson: Yes, we do not need to focus on post-secondary education.
I have said before that I think the Land Claims Agreements Coalition and the excellent committee report did not receive a satisfactory response from the minister. We need to monitor and follow up on that situation.
As far as the missing Aboriginal women are concerned, I certainly do not have a problem with the suggestion that we offer some support. However, I think that the fundamental issues there are justice, law enforcement and systemic discrimination on the justice side. The Throne Speech says: ". . . will take additional action to address the disturbing number of unsolved cases of murdered and missing Aboriginal women.'' They refer to the Sisters in Spirit initiative as a "criminal justice priority.''
I am not saying we should not deal with that issue, but I think if we focus on education, it will be time well spent. This other one may be a criminal justice focus, which is probably a bit outside of our mandate.
The Chair: In the House of Commons, the Standing Committee on the Status of Women is doing a major study on the missing and murdered Aboriginal women. That study is underway.
I have met with the minister. You will find that he would like to meet the whole committee again, as in the past. It is important that we meet with him because it gives us a better understanding of what he is trying to do. It is not a question of winning or losing. Hopefully, we can stay above the fray of this place and get some things done.
Senator Campbell: Will you pay for dinner this time?
The Chair: Will I pay for dinner? I have been carrying you, Senator Campbell, for so long. We will make some arrangements.
Senator Raine: I presume we will go ahead and have a briefing on MRP legislation that will be coming.
The Chair: That is right. For anything that we plan, legislation, logically, takes a priority when it comes through. There is the McIvor legislation that is coming through. The draft is out. I think it is on the Order Paper for tomorrow. I think the minister will be introducing the bill tomorrow. The issue of matrimonial real property is out there, and I know some of you have a keen interest in this subject. The sooner we can meet with the minister, the better. Are you in favour of taking time out to meet with him and have dinner with him as in the past?
Some Hon. Senators: Yes.
The Chair: Is everyone is comfortable with that arrangement?
If everyone is comfortable with that, we will try to orchestrate it. I meet with him from time to time. There is nothing wrong with approaching the steering committee at any given time. If you have any suggestions, you may speak to Senator Dyck, Senator Brazeau or me. We are at the service of the full committee. The full committee has the final say. Whatever we say is one thing, but it is the full committee that has the final say.
Senator Raine: I am not sure you answered my question. I do not want to mix up the briefing on MRP with meeting with the minister, because there are more issues we need to discuss with the minister, especially education.
The Chair: I have not asked for a briefing on MRP. Do you want one? If this is what you want, we will talk it over in the steering committee.
Senator Raine: My problem is that everything in my file is telling me that certain of the national Aboriginal associations were very much against that. I understand that perhaps has changed, so I would like to be brought up to date. I have been told that the national association of Aboriginal women is now supporting the legislation.
The Chair: Let us, as a steering committee, try to sort this out.
Senator Poirier, did Senator Brazeau brief you on MRP.
Senator Poirier: Yes, thank you.
The Chair: Sorry, we are talking in acronyms.
Senator Poirier: That is okay. That is why I asked.
The Chair: Senator Raine, I know you have an interest in it and I think other members have an interest in this particular file. I think that we could arrange a private briefing, or, if you want, a committee briefing.
Senator Raine: Does it make sense to have someone from the national association of Aboriginal women?
Senator Campbell: No.
The Chair: Who would you want a briefing from? Would it be from the department on MRP?
Senator Campbell: Why not? Let us hear what they have to say and go from there.
The Chair: Are there any comments?
Senator Brazeau: I do not have any comments.
Senator Stewart Olsen: Maybe we should talk about it at the next meeting, because it is a separate item.
The Chair: We will do that.
Senator Patterson: I know we can only do so many things and we have to do them one at a time. This legislation will probably be the first item. However, I think many people were intrigued by the reference in the Throne Speech to the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. It seems to me that with the caution in the Throne Speech that Canada's declaration would have to be consistent with the Charter, I think it said, and the Constitution, it will be a challenging subject. I suspect that there will have to be some creativity if we are to succeed in finding a way for the government to ratify the convention. I am not sure if that is something our committee is the logical one to take on, or whether it is Legal and Constitutional Affairs, but obviously it is an important issue for Aboriginal people. The Inuit were very interested in that phrase in the Throne Speech.
The Chair: I do not know whether it would be an item for the Legal and Constitutional Committee or an item for this committee.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: Would it be a human rights issue?
The Chair: It might have to go to the Human Rights Committee.
Senator Campbell: Should we not wait to see what it looks like and then comment on it as a committee? We have no idea. I agree with you, it will be a tough document to put together.
The Chair: We will have to prioritize. The last thing you want to do is shotgun. You want to be able to focus in on something. That is like our reports. Historically, our reports have been concise and precise, not with 10,000 pages and 4,000 recommendations.
We are better off to do more reports, shorter reports and focused reports so that we can ask the government to act on them. It does not serve us well to produce lengthy reports that cover a vast area of subjects with no focused recommendations. Historically, we have been successful with our shorter more concise reports. I still get comments on the report done under Senator Sibbeston's chairmanship. During the Olympics I was at three or four social events at the Aboriginal Pavilion. People were coming up to me and talking about how good it was because it was readable and focused, and the recommendations were useful to them. I would like to continue along this vein, but I am at the behest of the committee. If we do not have time in a meeting to talk about something that really interests you, approach us as a steering committee and we will try to deal with it.
Are there any other questions or comments? The clerk tells me I am in a public meeting and to watch what I say.
Senator Brazeau: I have a couple of recommendations from my end, just to offer some fodder. Education has been highlighted by many as the key to success for Aboriginal peoples. I obviously do not disagree. However, I disagree that we should potentially limit such a study to kindergarten to Grade 12 because is see it as just another Band-Aid solution. If you focus on one area and you forget the others, then you are not fixing what needs to be fixed. If we are to deal with education, we should cover the whole spectrum.
We could consider another possibility. I have been here for a year now, and I have been involved in Aboriginal politics for all of my life practically. I see the work that has been done in the Senate and elsewhere, and some very good work has been done, but there have also been reports issued that do not make a difference in the lives of any Aboriginal person across this country.
Having been a former national leader, and having had the opportunity to talk to grassroots Aboriginal people for quite a number of years, one of the issues that remains unresolved, and we seem even in these places in Parliament to turn a blind eye to it, is the lack of accountability. People might roll their eyes, but the last session was indicative of the lack of answers from INAC in particular, to the point where they even had to apologize to me for having lied during testimony. In my opinion, the representatives from INAC did not offer straight answers to very straightforward accountability questions.
If no one is willing to do anything about that, then that is fine, but if we really want to make a difference, that is one key area that we could look at. We could look toward communities that are in some financial difficulty, which includes co-management and third-party management. When we are talking about third-party management, we are talking about auditors coming into these communities and charging up to $60,000 a month to oversee them. That is a lot of money that should be going to the community instead of to cleaning up messes. Accountability remains unresolved. It is still an issue. I am ready to do anything that I can, and I am hoping that you are as well.
Another issue that we can deal with is the question of the numbered treaties. We could look at the true spirit and intent of those treaties and why they have not been honoured. More importantly, we could look at ways and means to perhaps develop a new treaty making process to reflect the 21st century, with modern-day reality in terms of looking towards self governance. Perhaps we could look for ways for communities to get out of the Indian Act and move into these self-governance agreements so they can move toward less government dependency.
This has never been done by any party of any political stripe in Parliament. Yet, every time we have Aboriginal witnesses, they always say the federal governments have not honoured the treaties. We have the flexibility to look into the treaties and offer solutions. There are 11 numbered treaties and a few peace and friendship treaties. That is not a lot of treaties. It is simpler to look the at treaties than the problems of 633 different First Nations communities across Canada. Within the 633, many of them fit under the 11 numbered treaties. I throw that out for discussion sake.
Senator Dyck: Saskatchewan would thank you for that suggestion.
The Chair: Yes, and so would Bill McKnight.
Senator Dyck: Yes, the 20th anniversary of the treaty land entitlement process.
The Chair: As far as accountability is concerned, in our report — am I allowed to talk about the report? No, I cannot. Read the report. I will talk to you later. We are in a public meeting now, and anything that I say is on the record. If you want to go in camera, we can go in camera in 30 seconds.
Is there anything else that you want to discuss in the public meeting? If there is nothing, I will adjourn the meeting. I would like a motion that the staff be allowed to remain as we go in camera. Can we have to a motion to that effect, unless you want them removed?
Senator Hubley: So moved.
The Chair: Agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
(The committee continued in camera.)