Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Aboriginal Peoples
Issue 21 - Evidence - March 22, 2011
OTTAWA, Tuesday, March 22, 2011
The Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples met this day at 9:37 a.m. to examine the federal government's constitutional, treaty, political and legal responsibilities to First Nations, Inuit and Metis peoples, and other matters generally relating to the Aboriginal Peoples of Canada (topic: issues concerning First Nations education).
Senator Lillian Eva Dyck (Deputy Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Deputy Chair: I would like to welcome all honourable senators and members of the public watching this meeting of the Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples on the World Wide Web or on CPAC. My name is Lillian Dyck. I am from Saskatchewan and I am the deputy chair of the committee. Our chair, Senator St. Germain, was unable to be here this morning so I am taking over.
For those of you who have been watching our proceedings over the last two months, you will see that today we are returning to the education study for a couple of weeks. We had been studying Bill S-11, the drinking water on First Nations reserves. For your information, Bill S-11 has been withdrawn for a couple of weeks so that department officials and the Assembly of First Nations can work collaborate on amendments. Proposed amendments from the department and from senators have been shared and a department briefing with all senators is coming in due course, probably in the next week or two.
The mandate of this committee is to examine legislation and matters relating to the Aboriginal Peoples of Canada generally. Given this mandate, the committee has undertaken a study to examine possible strategies for reform concerning First Nations' primary and secondary education, with a view to improving outcomes. Among other things, the study has focused on the following: Tripartite education agreements, governance and delivery structures and possible legislative frameworks.
This morning we have one witness, Mr. Isaac from the Walpole Island First Nation, whose portfolio is education. Before we hear from our witness, I would like to introduce the members of the committee present this morning. On my left we have Senator Jacques Demers from Quebec, on my right Senator Larry Campbell from British Columbia and Senator Sandra Lovelace Nicholas from New Brunswick.
Members of the committee, please help me in welcoming our witness from Walpole Island, Mr. Isaac. I understand you hold the education portfolio on the council. Please proceed with your presentation, which will be followed by questions from senators. It would be appreciated if you could keep your presentation brief and to the point.
E. Rex Isaac, Band Councillor, Portfolio: Education, Walpole Island First Nation: Boozhoo, bonjour and good morning honourable senators. I hope to keep it brief and I hope to inform the committee. I am honoured to speak before you today. I am a member of council for Bkejwanong First Nation, otherwise known as Walpole Island No. 46.
I have been asked to give some background on three issues. It will first discuss governance and delivery structures. It is my understanding that each branch of government is required to deliver services under its mandate. If this is true for the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development, does their mandate include the benefit and enrichment of First Nations and their citizens? When I see extreme poverty, unemployment and catastrophic social issues, it makes it difficult to believe.
The second issue is tripartite education agreements. There is a concern among First Nations of releasing the federal government's responsibilities under section 35 of the Canadian Constitution.
The third item is a possible legislative or policy framework. This is most likely the area that needs to be the focal point if we are to build a solid foundation in delivering primary and secondary education to our First Nations.
Allow me to state or restate the roles and responsibilities of the federal government. With all due respect, the treaties were signed with the honour of the Crown and the First Nations, not with the PTOs or, for that matter, the respective governments of Canada. With that being said, any alterations to the treaties can only be made to those parties signatory, namely, Her Majesty the Crown and the individual First Nations.
I realize the government is trying to find a model to benefit all concerned from coast to coast, but this is highly unlikely to succeed. Each nation has its own language, culture, goals and success indicators in regards to education. I do feel we can succeed in delivering quality education to First Nations. However, the process needs to respect the individualities of each unique First Nation. Each nation must be fully included in the reform process. We cannot succeed if First Nations are not included in the development of the processes. The languages, cultures, traditions and rights of each First Nation citizen must be respected.
I would like to take a moment to examine the Quebec model. It is my understanding that Quebec is not a signatory to the 1982 Constitution. However, their rights are fully protected both under the Canadian Constitution and the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Francophone Canadians also enjoy the respect of their language, history and culture. Now, as we near the two hundredth anniversary celebration of the War of 1812, I must remind this committee that if not for the efforts of your First Nation allies in this war and others, we may be having these discussions or deliberations with a different government, perhaps the French or even the Government of the United States.
This government has made concessions with a group with which it was once at war. Simultaneously, the allies that supported your efforts have been left by the wayside. My personal belief is that if First Nations were given the same accommodations and respect as Quebec, our francophone brothers and sisters, many of the issues we face today would be mitigated and the original peoples of these lands known as Canada would be thriving.
The Deputy Chair: Your presentation was very concise and precise. As the chair, I will entertain one or two short questions for you.
Mr. Isaac you said that if First Nations were given the same sort of treatment as francophone Canadians, many things would be solved. Could you elaborate on what you mean by that statement? What sort of accommodation do you envision?
Mr. Isaac: One of the major issues that First Nations face is resources in delivering the education they feel their citizens deserve. Francophones, not just in Quebec but across Canada, receive the necessary resources. Anglophone students are also encouraged in the same way. I believe it is a requirement of the Ontario Secondary School Diploma that students have another language. Those are the types of things I am talking about — the fact that francophones are given the resources to enhance and enrich their culture, not just in Quebec but across the nation. That is just one issue.
As I mentioned earlier, there are many diverse nations among the First Nations population. If some consideration was given to allowing similar accommodations and resources so that our students could thrive as do French-speaking and English-speaking students, we would be a lot better off.
The Deputy Chair: Do you see a need for including things like language and culture within the curriculum in elementary and/or secondary school?
Mr. Isaac: Absolutely. As many of you know, there are five indicators that define nationhood, and one of those is language, another is culture. When I walk through the streets of Ottawa or Toronto, I look around and I try to picture in my mind what a Canadian is. Canadians are so diverse. There is not a stereotype — you cannot say "this is a Canadian" and have a picture to show. It is a melting pot of different ethnicities and backgrounds.
However, as I stated earlier, it is clearly defined with the French. People are proud to say "I am a French Canadian." The different First Nations are as well. They are clearly defined and could stand up front proudly displaying themselves as First Nations. Whether they want to state they are Canadian citizens is another issue. However, I think they can be clearly identified. Their language and culture need to be at the centre, the focal point of their identities.
Senator Campbell: One of the difficulties that I see in listening to the various witnesses is that there are actually three players involved in the process of educating First Nations students. By law, the federal government has the legal jurisdiction over primary and secondary education. The day-to-day running of the education system is the responsibility of the First Nation, and into this mix, we inject the province because the province is responsible for education. I see that approximately 40 per cent of First Nation students attend off-reserve schools.
How do we reconcile these three different governance structures so that the education of First Nations students is equal to the education available to other students in Canada?
Mr. Isaac: That First Nations are responsible for delivering education programs is pretty much mandated by the educational goals of the province. However, the First Nations set their standards above provincial levels. The federal government's responsibility is to roll out the resources so we can deliver this quality education to our students. There are no second or third level services in First Nation education. However, there is at the provincial level. As far as resources go, our students are lacking several things, such as music and special education programs. We have caps on our resources, and it makes it extremely difficult to give our students the proper education that they deserve.
My First Nation entered into an agreement and signed a contract with the Right Honourable Paul Martin. His group initiated an education program with Walpole Island and Kettle and Stoney Point First Nation to deliver literacy and numeracy to increase numbers. Even before Mr. Martin arrived at Walpole Island, our numbers were rising according to testing in various areas, because of the dedicated staff and the dedication of the community to our students. We have exceeded other areas of federally funded schools, such as Six Nations and other First Nations, as well as the provincially funded schools. At the same time, we have incurred close to $1 million in debt, but that is how strongly we feel about providing learning resources to our students.
I have heard that in the next 10 years, Canada will face a major labour shortage in all areas. First Nations people can fill those gaps. If we invest those dollars today, it will mitigate and possibly eliminate that need. I keep hearing different people say that we should bring in immigrants for this and that. Why bring in immigrants when we have those people here, today, and well into the future. I have three children in school, and I would love for them to fill those positions, and perhaps these seats one day. They can only do that with a quality education. It is within their right, not only under the Constitution, but the Charter as well. For there to be a deficiency, sometimes up to 50 per cent, in service delivery of resources for education for First Nations students versus non-native students, is clearly a violation of their Charter rights.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: Obviously the Charter is not working for First Nations when it comes to education. Do you think legislation is needed to help improve education for First Nations?
Mr. Isaac: Absolutely, legislation would help. The process set out in the legislation will be key. We cannot continue on the same path because it has not been successful.
I am told that 30 per cent of First Nations are in third party and it is likely that twice as many live in extreme poverty. Therefore, we need to start investing.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: Do you think the legislation would improve education on all First Nations?
Mr. Isaac: Yes, it needs to include First Nations. Governments that are unaware of the situations that First Nations face cannot hand down solutions. I am not aware of every First Nation and their individual situations. However, the Right Honourable Paul Martin took time out of his schedule to come to Walpole Island. He visited our school and community to see the social dynamics. He did the same thing with Kettle and Stony Point. He invested dollars, through his foundation, to assist in creating an education model that will benefit all First Nations. In the first year, INAC made an offer to our First Nation for the purchase of the rights to that model in the amount of $125,000 per year for the next five years. We are just in the preliminary stages.
We are developing this model with excellent teachers who are underpaid and short on resources. I am concerned that our First Nations teachers do not receive benefits. The non-native teachers who come from off reserve receive a full benefits package. Will we be able to retain these teachers when we have others offering the same program and curriculum at a much higher rate that we can offer? That is another concern.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: What is the gap and why is there a gap in the education between First Nations and non- First Nations students?
Mr. Isaac: The short answer is that it is because of the band operated funding formula. Band operated funding formula was created 15 or so years ago. It put a 2 per cent cap on First Nations education. Inflation is much higher than 2 per cent a year and if you multiply that by 15 years, the gap increases quite substantially. Could this government operate with a 2 per cent cap for the next 15 years while maintaining the same services, standards and quality to all Canadians? That is what our First Nations education systems are expected to do. That is just one area.
Three years ago, I was told that special education has been given a cap. We do not even have a 2 per cent cap; we have a cap. In Ontario, the provincial average of special needs children is approximately 10 per cent. On First Nations, it is tripled. We are not receiving any more dollars. If we have a student who has extreme special needs, we have two options. One option is that we send them off the reserve, away from their people, their homes and those who love and support them; the second option is that we expend the majority of our budget for special education on that one child at the expense of all the other children.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: The children are taken from their culture as well.
Mr. Isaac: Yes, they are.
Senator Stewart Olsen: Your schools are now functioning. You said that they are coming along. What do you see as a way forward? Have you looked at tripartite agreements? Do you have such an agreement in place?
Mr. Isaac: Our school is doing very well. With the Martin Aboriginal Educational Initiative and the Indigenous Education Coalition, we receive second level services at a very minimal level. It is about $70,000 per year. Those little assists help; however, in order for us to move up the numbers in our testing, our First Nation incurred a $1 million deficit in the last two to three years. We cannot do that. We have limited resources. However, we feel that our students are our most precious resource and because of that, we are putting ourselves in a financial strain and hardship. Our kids deserve that education. Hopefully, those children will lead us in finding the means to be able to address all of these issues in the future.
Senator Stewart Olsen: In your presentation, you said you would like First Nations children to be able to take advantage of upcoming jobs that we will certainly need to fill all over the country. Is the curriculum of your school, for example, offered in First Nation schools geared to filling these jobs of the future? Should we, as a committee, look at curriculum as well?
Mr. Isaac: The curriculum that we follow is parallel to the Ontario standards. However, we are exceeding those standards in other areas such as language, culture and music. We exceeded standards in other unnecessary types of service deliveries like shop, family planning and home economics. We also have what we call "circles," such as this one, where everyone gets a chance to speak to different issues and to learn. Other initiatives offer business programming and money management. Often, the kids do not realize that they are doing that. However, our teachers and educators are good at teaching them the things that they need to know in order to become prosperous adults without it coming off in that direction. It is fun, engaging and they want to learn that way.
The concerns with the tripartite agreements are based on the treaties. The treaties are the responsibility to be upheld by the federal government. We do not have a problem bringing up the standards to a provincial level. We already do that now. I do not want to release onto the province the federal responsibility for the service delivery to First Nations with that treaty agreement. That is my concern with the tripartite agreements.
Senator Demers: I appreciate you defending your own kids; that is important to me.
Where do you stand from 2011 until 2015? We are talking about teachers and the shortage of money. Do you have a specific plan to come forward to the government and say, "This is our plan for the next five years"? Right now, it is not too late — it is never too late. It has been tough and I understand that.
Is there a specific plan to state where you stand and what is needed to ensure it functions well? Even more important, we need to keep our teachers, because with no teachers, there is no education. Do you have a plan?
You talked about losing over $1million dollars. Do you have a five-year plan in place? Do you have something that says, "This is what we need to ensure we are moving ahead for our young kids — and older kids can go to school, too — so they will have an education and come out of it eventually with good work because they will be educated"?
Mr. Isaac: Yes, two years ago, we undertook a study conducted by an outside, non-biased third party. We are in the second year of implementing the 63 recommendations brought forward as part of that study. Again, we had taken that out of our budget and it was a five-year plan. We are working towards those goals.
In our area, we receive $4,800 per student to deliver the same program service delivery as the Ontario students. The off- reserve schools — just the other side of the bridge for us — receive about $9,600 per student. If we could even come close to that $9,600, not only would that eliminate our deficit and our hardship, but also it would be able to open up even more things for our students to learn.
We need a lot of support, whether they are SMARTboards or other different tools we use. That is not to mention retaining teachers and paying them a comparable salary for the excellent work they do, having the administration to oversee this, and having the benefits of the higher levels of manager there to develop curriculums that are fully inclusive of not only the Canadian and Ontario standards but of our own standards of the Anishinabe culture. We need that.
Those extra dollars could help provide that, instead of us always being in scramble mode and trying to figure out whether we take away from this to give to that. That should not have to be our focal point. Our focal point should be addressing our students' day-to-day needs so they can be successful adults.
Senator Raine: Is Walpole Island First Nation part of a greater linguistic group? Is it Anishinabe? Among the Anishinabe people, do you share second- and third-level services? Maybe you do not currently, but do you see that as one of your goals?
Mr. Isaac: That is very interesting. Personally, yes, I would love to do that. This answer also relates to one of Senator Demers's questions. Right now, we are undertaking an initiative where one of our goals is to try to have an immersion school within the next five years. They recently opened a French immersion school in Manitoba, perhaps. It was outside of Quebec, anyway. We are looking to have an immersion school so we can produce fluent speakers of our language.
The Anishnabe Nation includes the Odawa, the Potawatomi and the Ojibwa. We would be happy to work with that larger group. In fact, we have partnerships with larger groups in our area, which we are hoping to expand.
However, as our francophone members are probably aware, there is a difference in dialect. French Canadian is not the same as French European, and it is the same for Ojibwa in the southern and northern region. There are small similarities. We can understand one another but there is a difference in dialect.
That is why I said that you cannot just have this broad paint brush approach to meet the needs of all individual First Nations. To satisfy these little intricacies we cannot work with a wide base approach. However, there are some very key things that are overlapping that would be very beneficial to the larger nations as a group.
We have several nations. My particular nation is the Anishnabe Nation. Closer to this area is the Iroquois Confederacy, and that includes several First Nations. I do not have a problem with working together, and I think it would be to our benefit to do so in those areas.
Senator Raine: How many First Nations people are Anishnabe speaking or desire to speak the Ojibwa language in total; do you have a total number? There are many First Nations involved, so I am not sure if you have that information. I am just looking for a ballpark figure.
Mr. Isaac: In numbers, it is hard to tell you.
Senator Raine: Would it be 20,000?
Mr. Isaac: It would be well above that.
Senator Raine: Might it be 50,000?
Mr. Isaac: I would think it would probably be in the hundreds of thousands. The Anishnabe Nation goes from the border of the Iroquois Nation, which is just a little west of here, all the way out past Manitoba and into the Wisconsin area, south into the Ohio Valley and north to where the Cree and the Inuit live. It is a very large area. That is just our traditional territory. I have relatives and friends who live all over Canada, the United States and Buffy Sainte Marie lives in Hawaii. We have people all over the place.
Senator Raine: Is there a common bond between all those people in that they have a basic Ojibwa language and cultural roots?
Mr. Isaac: Yes, there is.
Senator Raine: I know it is one of the bigger linguistic groups in North America, along with Cree. Out west, there are some bigger groups as well. However, it is a real tragedy that there is no support for maintaining the culture and the language, and for finding tools that could be used by all the dialects. For instance, a book in Ojibwa could be read by the different dialects.
Is the written language different, as well?
Mr. Isaac: Traditionally, our language is not a written language. It has become a written language over the last 100 years or so. I am only 40 years old, so I can only speak for the last 40 years.
Even as a written language, it has evolved and changed. It started out phonetically; however, it sounded was how it was written. Then it started to create more of a structure. They started double vowels, for example, and that is how the written language started to evolve. It was recently, not in the last couple of years, but probably within the last 20 to 40 years. It is becoming more standardized. It is difficult to take an oral language and then all of a sudden create a written language. We are basing the language on those oral traditions.
Our elders, who are the fluent speakers, hold the keys to that, and each day that we wait to initiate our language goals, we are losing another elder and we are losing all that history. We cannot wait any longer. We have to move now.
Senator Raine: I did not realize that the language has been written so recently. However, in many languages, you can pronounce the letters slightly differently, but if you are writing a language down strictly from the oral sound, then you could have five versions of what was a similar language.
Mr. Isaac: Yes, that is why I said that the written language is becoming more standardized. However, with the traditional oral language, as I said, the dialects between the north and the south, for example, are different. Some words may be opposite. Some words are close, but there are just small little intricacies in the language that make it distinct to the individual regions or areas.
Senator Dallaire: I am speaking to you in English, which is not my mother tongue, and I believe English is not your mother tongue either. Am I correct?
Mr. Isaac: No, Ojibwa is my mother tongue.
Senator Dallaire: We have made extensive legal processes by which French has been recognized as a language, and the French Canadians and Quebecois as a nation. We made enormous concessions in other provinces to French Canadians outside of Quebec, where the numbers warrant it, and legalized it that way.
My family still sits on a piece of land on the Ile d'Orléans where they arrived in 1666, so we have been here a while. However, it took until 1968, around 300 hundred years, before the two languages were recognized as equal.
No one in any of the education processes run by the provincial governments has ever introduced me, my children or my predecessors to any of the Aboriginal languages of our country. Are you in agreement with that?
Mr. Isaac: If you are telling me that, yes, I am in agreement.
Senator Dallaire: Have you seen any provincial government that has instituted any cultural or linguistic apprenticeship in any of the provincial education systems? They teach them Spanish and German. Have they ever taught them any of your Aboriginal languages?
Mr. Isaac: Well, when I was growing up, that was not an option. However, in our area recently — I do not know exactly when the Lambton Kent District School Board started it — at Wallaceburg District Secondary School, you are required to get a second language before you get your OSSD diploma. You have the option of getting a second language in French or Ojibwa, and at that particular school, they offer the language all the way up to graduation. That is one school in how large a system I do not know.
Senator Dallaire: Jacques Cartier came here in 1534, so it has taken only six centuries to get one school to do that. We are doing pretty good.
If I am not mistaken, the demographics of our country have indicated that the Aboriginal peoples of this country are the fastest growing population in this country.
Mr. Isaac: That is what I have been told.
Senator Dallaire: You said it yourself, but just to confirm, the Aboriginal communities and youths are those who suffer the most from a series of social problems that are off the scale of what kids suffer in non-Aboriginal communities. Is that correct?
Mr. Isaac: Unfortunately, I believe that that is correct.
Senator Dallaire: Have you seen the INAC staff specifically address policies to respond to this significantly growing youth population? Have you seen INAC staff consider significant social programs for that youth or adjust the infrastructure of the education system for which they are responsible in providing you the resources? Have you seen a policy paper or analysis that would address that specific dimension?
As we see in every other province, when there is a problem in demographics, as we had in Quebec, for example, with a significant lowering of the youth in the province, we saw the province shifting money, closing schools, adjusting the special education programs and so forth. Have you seen any policy articulated by INAC to meet that aspect?
Mr. Isaac: The short answer is I have not seen any policy. To elaborate on that, out of our own band revenue and dollars that we have generated, which is minimal, we have a program currently to address the issues around the youth in a positive manner. We have hired some staff, we have the Bkejwanong Youth Facility, and that program, as I said, is self- funded. We spend about $100,000 a year invested in our youth from the ages of nine to 17 years, to try to shift that demographic so we give them something positive in which to invest their time and themselves.
Senator Dallaire: The authority to provide you those resources, to recognize these increased needs and to react to them is INAC, the federal government. It is totally out of their realm because education and meeting those needs are provincial. We have a bunch of people with no background or experience in those areas, who do not run those things, but who are supposed to be providing you with that capability and, seemingly, not effectively.
What about the 40 per cent of the kids who are off reserve? I have a school in my name in Winnipeg, where there was a need for a French Canadian primary school because of the military base. They created a French Canadian school, and it provides immersion to English kids also.
What impact do the 40 per cent of kids off reserve have on the local education system in that area in regard to infrastructure, programs and languages to meet the requirements of that 40 per cent?
Mr. Isaac: I am unsure of exactly what you are asking, but, yes, we do have a large population of probably 40 per cent for the First Nation. It varies from First Nation to First Nation. Much of that has to do with housing issues, which is another topic.
We have our students in those classes, and our government does not have any jurisdiction over our own citizens in those urban settings.
However, when they want to seek their culture, their language and those types of things, they come home. Home is where they receive that education. As far as I am aware, there are no resources available to meet the needs and demands of First Nations students at schools outside of First Nations jurisdiction.
Senator Dallaire: The federal government is responsible for on-reserve education but not for off-reserve education. However, the provincial government does not necessarily pick up the responsibility of supporting Aboriginal culture and languages, even though there may be a significant population of First Nations in a school area.
Mr. Isaac: That is my understanding.
Senator Dallaire: The provincial side of the house is not necessarily meeting your needs, although it meets the needs of the French Canadians.
Mr. Isaac: Yes.
Senator Dallaire: That is interesting. The province will not do it for you.
Mr. Isaac: No.
Senator Dallaire: Why do they not want to do it for you? Is it because the federal government is supposed to do it?
Mr. Isaac: It would be difficult for me to answer that as it is not in my area of expertise. I would not like to speculate on that; I would rather hear it from them.
Senator Dallaire: The province is responsible for education. It has school boards. It taxes people and sends money to the school boards. The school boards manage the money, and there are always deficiencies. However, it is a very direct link. The school board answers to the provincial ministry, which tells the boards what to do. The ministry manages content, priority of resources and so on.
In your case, the federal government is supposed to provide resources. They have no background on running schools or education systems, as that is not their purview. The provincial government sets standards, and you want to set your own standards within that. However, neither you nor any of these people have any direct responsibility for acquiring funds. The funds are given out by the federal government, but not necessarily to meet the provincial level or your specific need. Is that correct?
Mr. Isaac: Yes.
Senator Dallaire: Do you not think that is a bit stupid? I do not mean to put you on the spot. Do you think we should have legislation to sort out this issue?
Mr. Isaac: Yes. We definitely need legislation. I am very fond of the Quebec model and the respect they have given to francophone Canadians. The government has said that there are too many languages and too many First Nations, that they cannot accommodate every First Nation. Well, perhaps they could start with the larger ones such as the Anishinabe, the Iroquois and the Cree. People across Canada recognize those languages and cultures and provide support for them.
Senator Dallaire: You referred to Quebec. Quebec has allowed the English to have education in English. As well, in most provinces, the French are allowed to have education in French. There is not nearly enough funding, either provincially, to meet the needs of the 40 per cent of students off reserve, or federally, to meet the needs of those on reserve. Is that right?
Mr. Isaac: Yes.
Senator Brazeau: Good morning, and thank you for your presentation. You have demonstrated through your work that education is an important priority. That should be respected, and no one can disagree with it.
You talked about Paul Martin, and I cannot help but comment. I am glad that Mr. Martin created a foundation for the education of Aboriginal students and that his work benefits your community. However, it is somewhat ironic that Mr. Martin, as Minister of Finance 1997, imposed the 2 per cent cap on education. I could not help myself. You opened the door to that one.
All the witnesses who appeared before this committee to talk about education talked about a lack of resources, and that is important. However, having said that, if you look at the audited financial statements of many First Nations communities you see that many of them show a surplus in education funding. In other words, they do not spend all the education funding that they are given in a year.
Resources are important and needed, but what do you say to First Nations communities that do not spend all of the education funding that they receive? They show a surplus in their audited financial statements and then ask governments for more money for education.
Many First Nations communities are in dire need of extra resources to fulfil their needs for education, but other First Nations communities do not spend their money on education. They may spend it elsewhere. This impacts communities that are in dire need of money for education.
Mr. Isaac: Senator Brazeau, I was looking forward to your comments. I appreciate your little plug for the potential upcoming election campaign against the Liberals.
Lack of resources is definitely an issue, and there are surpluses in some First Nations. It boils down to management, and not necessarily management of First Nations. It is management by the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs Canada.
You should all be aware of the structures of your bureaucracy. We have regional offices across the country. In dealings that I have had with various people on infrastructure issues, for example, they have said, "Why do you not just use high-speed Internet? Why do you not rent a building? Why do you not just do this or that?"
I once asked one of those individuals whether they had ever been to a First Nation, and they had not, even though they are responsible for delivering the services necessary to First Nations.
It is imperative that at a minimum, the government require that anyone who works for the Department of Indian Affairs knows the logistics, the social structure and the dynamics of the First Nations within the region that they are overseeing. How can you speak to something that you have never seen? There has to be some responsibility placed on the managers who are supposed to look after the interests of Indian Affairs.
My First Nation has 4,400-plus members and incurs deficits yearly while other First Nations that may have 80 members have surpluses in education funding. Those disparities could be offset.
I know that the Chiefs of Ontario are trying to address that issue. They are looking for a means by which smaller First Nations that have surpluses can funnel money to larger First Nations that have extreme deficits.
That should be done by the department that was given that responsibility. Those bureaucrats need to visit the First Nations in order to understand the issues and the dynamics.
That way, we will not have irresponsible management. You cannot place all that on First Nations. We invite them to come any time. Come to Walpole and visit, any of you, and see our social dynamic. The Right Honourable Paul Martin took the time out of his busy schedule to spend the day at Walpole Island.
Senator Brazeau: You talked about the responsibility of INAC managers and the department. Once the department forwards any type of funding on education, is it still the responsibility of INAC in terms of the delivery of education and how the education dollars are spent on the reserve? What about the responsibility of the First Nations? First Nations leaders call for more jurisdictions over their own internal affairs. That is fine. However, at some point the First Nation must take some responsibility to ensure that the education dollars they receive are spent on education for the benefit of their students. I fail to see how it is INAC's fault in terms of how the First Nation spends the funds. The First Nations communities spend the money on education. If they are not spending the money on education, whose responsibility is that?
Mr. Isaac: Our First Nation has a $1 million deficit over a two or three-year period. We are not one of those surplus First Nations. Therefore, I cannot speak to those smaller First Nations that incur a surplus. However, I can speak to the fact of the responsibilities of management. Would Senator Demers be an effective manager or coach of a hockey team if he never set foot into an arena? Suppose he threw money in there and said, "Go win a Stanley Cup." When they did not win a Stanley Cup, he said, "What happened? I gave you what you needed." I am speaking to the deficits in our areas. If there are surpluses in other areas, those managers who oversee the regions should address those surpluses and move those dollars from the areas that have surpluses, especially if it is on a regular basis. We have deficits on a regular basis and we would like to have those deficits addressed. It is a simple management manoeuvre where you take the surpluses and move them to where the deficits are and try to balance things out.
We are funded at about one-half of the provincial equivalent. However, we are required to deliver the same quality of education by the same standards. I hear the Conservatives talk about surpluses and the mismanagement of First Nations funds. However, that is not so. There are not many First Nations communities out there that look like Toronto or Ottawa. In fact, the majority of First Nations people live in extreme poverty; they live in ghettos. We have people who are 50 per cent unemployed. We have high percentages of people receiving social assistance. We have high suicide rates. Every one of the negative social dynamics exists probably at the highest level at every First Nation. It exists for a reason and it is the government's responsibility to find out why. If they visit the First Nations, perhaps they would have a better scope as to finding out how they can address the problems and improve the situation.
Senator Brazeau: It is not just Conservatives who talk about surpluses and mismanagement. The taxpayers of Canada want to ensure that the money they pay in taxes actually benefit First Nations students. For the most part, Canadians care about those funding dollars.
If you believe that the funding of any First Nations community that accumulates a surplus should go to a community that is in need of resources, would you find an education director or First Nation chief who would agree to give up their surplus?
Mr. Isaac: In the spirit and intent of our treaties and with our non-native partners, that was laid out before them: sharing. I am told that we are involved in resource revenue sharing. There is also the duty to consult and accommodate. As original peoples, we should have some entitlement to the resources this country holds. However, those resources have not been equally shared. That is why we are in a poverty state and others thrive and flourish.
I am not trying to pick on the Conservatives. I do appreciate some of the work that the Conservatives do. However, I do want to place the responsibility on management, whether at the federal level, the provincial level or at the level of INAC. Wherever it lies, it needs to be addressed as quickly as possible.
Senator Brazeau: Never forget that it was the Liberals who created the Indian Act and it is the Conservatives who work for Indians.
Senator Patterson: I will continue on a question asked by Senator Stewart Olsen. It is repugnant that band funded teachers and provincially funded teachers have inequities. The committee and the department are looking with great interest at the potential for tripartite agreements. The department set out an Education Partnership Program in 2008 seeking to involve provinces and First Nations in partnership arrangements.
You talked about your concern that tripartite agreements will be a chance for the federal government to offload its solemn treaty obligations onto provinces. Surely, if there are concerns, the tripartite agreement itself could deal with that issue. First Nations all over the country are overcoming that issue. There are ironclad non-derogation clauses. The agreement could be made so as not to prejudice fundamental treaty rights, which are protected under section 35. I am just challenging you. If this is the direction in which we are moving, is it not possible to overcome that while still respecting the treaty rights?
Mr. Isaac: As I have been taught by my grandparents and my elders, anything is possible. I do not have the authority to sign an agreement on behalf of my First Nation or all the First Nations of Canada. However, I want to express clearly the concern that I have heard from many of my fellow First Nations council members and chiefs across Canada. As long as that message is being heard, I am appreciative of that. We want to hear that our voice is being heard.
I would be happy to look at any potential agreement or negotiation. As I stated earlier, individual First Nations should be consulted and in agreement with other First Nations, so any arrangement should include an agreement that falls within their jurisdictional boundaries. Within my jurisdictional boundaries, I know what I would want to see and what I definitely would not agree to in an agreement. That is why I am here today, to try to reach an agreement. I stated my concerns on tripartite agreements, and if they can be overcome and the actual agreement is placed before me for legal review to see that there are no issues, then we would look at it.
The other concern I have is that First Nations be included in the process of addressing these issues. Right now, it is a handed down process. First Nations are not included in the structuring of solutions for education or for other matters. As I stated, the spirit and intent of the treaties was sharing on all levels, whether it is sharing knowledge, resources or people. If you include First Nations people in the process, instead of handing down legislation while saying, "This is your new legislation; read it, know it, abide by it" there would be more of a buy-in by First Nations people, and they would feel respected. Right now, as it stands, there is no mutual sharing; it is one-sided sharing. Anyone would feel the same way in such a one-sided relationship. Once that sharing occurs and First Nations are included in the process, there will be much less reluctance and more trust between the parties involved. We could all benefit from that process.
Senator Patterson: I agree that a partnership must be a true partnership based on mutual respect.
You mentioned legislation. I wonder if you have given some thought to the education provisions in the Indian Act, which as you probably know, date from 1927 and deal with truancy and attendance; obviously, they are antiquated.
One of the mandates of this committee is what to do with the Indian Act provisions on education, which are obviously in need of attention and modernization. I know you just warned us about imposing legislation, but have you given any thought to what new provisions on First Nations education should be in the Indian Act, if we were to recommend modernizing the act? What should be in it?
Mr. Isaac: When I think about past legislation, for example, when they brought the country together they divvied up responsibilities between the province and the federal government. Land, for example, was given to the province. Had the federal government known that all these resources and revenues would be coming, perhaps they would have wanted a stronger foothold and not given it all to the province.
Senator Patterson: They kept it in the North.
Mr. Isaac: However, you have to look at the date when these agreements were developed, and the mind set back then and the key concerns. Staying consistent with that approach, yes, any legislation or policy needs to be looked at from time to time.
The Indian Act is an old document and it is antiquated. It is not consistent with human rights generally or the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. It is inconsistent with many things. There is a lot of talk about abolishing the Indian Act and what would take its place. Again, I would like to see some inclusive work involving First Nations governments and the Government of Canada. There are several things that could be included within the education section of the Indian Act. As you mentioned, there is nothing in the act concerning education other than truancy and attendance.
If you look at the Education Act for Ontario, it is quite lengthy and detailed. It is probably larger than the entire Indian Act itself.
If we came up with the necessary education parameters and appended them to the Indian Act, it would be all encompassing. You cannot just limit the act to a few ideas that were thought of at the time because it has grown so much and is so much broader now.
The Deputy Chair: Mr. Isaac, you mentioned a difference in funding received for an on-reserve student, $4,800 versus $9,600 for the same student if he or she were to attend school off-reserve. In our committee travels to the Maritimes, we were told that if a student from their reserve went to an off-reserve school, they were charged $9,600 and had to pay the difference. Does that happen with your band as well? If you have a student going to an off-reserve school, is your band charged that higher fee and does that then contribute to your deficit in education funding?
Mr. Isaac: We have a primary school that goes up to grade 8. After grade 8, our students go to a secondary school under a tuition agreement with the high schools. This really baffles me: We face this shortfall in funding to deliver curriculum for the primary grades, but when the students get to high school, the rates almost triple, because secondary education costs more than primary education. INAC does not ask any question and whatever they determine the amount to be, they pay it.
The Deputy Chair: They pay it?
Senator Raine: They go off-reserve?
Mr. Isaac: For high school. Under the Indian Act, students who live on-reserve and go to an off-reserve Catholic school, we have to provide dollars. We pay for those students. We do not pay for other schools that parents choose to send their children to off-reserve.
The Deputy Chair: Your funding formula is different, then.
Mr. Isaac: Our funding formula is consistent with the Indian Act.
Senator Stewart Olsen: I commend the chair for having one witness today with lots of time to answer questions.
At first, I thought our report should come down with recommendations targeted to urban area First Nations and recommendations targeted to rural area First Nations. Based on what you have said, suppose the three parties were to negotiate a tripartite agreement on core curriculum and that INAC would then do something on cultural curriculum, which would be negotiated with individual bands to be more manageable and not dealt with as a one-size-fits-all solution. I am not sure that it would be easy to say, "Let us negotiate this and include the cultural aspect."
However, we could try a tripartite agreement on core curriculum that would be the same for everyone in the province, since there are core subject that all students needs to learn in school. Then there would be a cultural aspect, such as language, history or a special course that would be better for First Nations than others.
Do you think a report like that might be more reflective of the needs of First Nations than what we are looking at, which is a "let us negotiate across the board and try to fit everyone into the same envelope" kind of idea?
Mr. Isaac: I respect where you are going and I appreciate that you are willing to negotiate. Once again, it is difficult for me to agree verbally without seeing the documentation in front of me, but I think we are going in the right direction. I think you are a very good listener and that the Canadian people are very lucky to have you here. I like that approach and I like that idea.
As I said to Senator Patterson, anything is possible. The more inclusive something is to the First Nations the better. Like you said, we cannot go with a pan-Canadian approach. I really like those ideas.
Senator Raine: It is really nice to have a bit more time than we normally do.
This committee has travelled to the Maritimes and to Saskatchewan. It is obvious that things are different in different places, but there is a common thread: The amount of reporting and paperwork that flows from the administration in the school system on a reserve to INAC is one way. Do you have access to that kind of information coming back to help you in your planning, or are all those reports sent in with you feeling that they are never looked at?
Mr. Isaac: Yes, I have to admit we feel that happens. It sometimes feels like we send in reports almost as high as the ceiling on all different issues and not just for education; we do so for every dollar expended by the band under the comprehensive funding agreements, or CFAs. We do many reports. We are actually in the process right now, it is getting close to fiscal year end, so we will have to submit all these reports, do all our audits, and ensure our checks and balances are in. That takes a lot of time and takes away from the services being delivered.
We have a limited amount of dollars and a limited staff. In order to keep moving forward, we do not have a backup staff to be able to address all these reports. Our people are working overtime to meet the requirements of the comprehensive funding agreements. At the same time, they are maintaining their day job and service delivery. That is a big issue.
It has been stated more than once by other people that, after you get these enormous stacks of paper, once they reach the desks of either the Senate or the House of Commons, it might only amount to a briefing note.
Senator Raine: I do not even think we get that.
Mr. Isaac: We question all the time how much of all this reporting actually reaches the people that it is supposed to reach.
Senator Raine: My understanding is that the fiscal year does not match the school year, so it makes it even more difficult to run a logical management of the delivery of your education.
Mr. Isaac: Yes, it makes it very difficult. We have managed fairly well in the past because we look at the school year, even though we have to look at the fiscal year dollar wise. It is just a matter of checks and balances. Like I said, we have professional people who manage those areas and take care of the funds to ensure there are no lapses in service and that everything is there.
We have incurred quite a deficit in order to maintain the high standards we have set for ourselves. Had we had the proper resources to take on the initiatives that we want for our students and that they deserve, we would not have those issues.
Senator Raine: When you say you have a deficit, do you use own source revenue? Where does your revenue come from?
Mr. Isaac: As you know, we have been in recession and that has affected First Nations as well. Our own source revenue for Walpole Island comes mainly from two areas. One area is the hunting and fishing trade; we get dollars from clubs that bring in people with money to have an experience with either hunting or fishing. We get revenues from that area. The other source is that we have quite a successful farm that has been running for 20 years. They handle about 600 acres or more.
Those sources are where our revenues come from, but they only amount to probably $1 million a year. It is not very much. When we have a $1 million deficit in education alone over two years that takes a big bite out of our own source revenue.
Senator Raine: You are to be congratulated for investing it in the future.
We have seen the challenges across the country. We have also seen examples where, in terms of reporting, First Nations have their own needs in terms of how you are tracking your students through the system. However, it does not necessarily mesh with what INAC is asking for. Therefore, you have to use two different tracking systems. It would be nice if that could get sorted out.
Mr. Isaac: Yes, it would be very nice. In their infinite wisdom, INAC just changed their reporting requirements and all of our staff has had to undergo training to meet those new reporting requirements, which are more regimented and involve more paperwork and more time. It costs us in time and dollars to meet the needs of INAC or address the items handed down from INAC. If we do not meet INAC's needs, they will say that we will not get any funding. We are totally compliant with the comprehensive funding arrangements. It would be nice if respect would be shown in addressing our needs.
Senator Raine: You said earlier that teachers who are First Nations residents do not receive any benefits. However, a non-native teacher coming from off reserve to teach on reserve receives salary plus benefits. How can that be?
Mr. Isaac: My guess is because of legislation. About 10 years ago, First Nations were finally able to contribute to the Canada Pension Plan.
Our school has been there for about 50 years. We have not received increases in funding. Consider the cost for just a salary alone. We are in a deficit with just the salaries, let alone the benefits.
The legislation states that we must pay the non-native Canadians their benefits. There is no question about that. However, is at the discretion of the First Nation whether to pay the benefits for the First Nation teachers. At the time, we had a vote. It was an all-or-nothing thing. People decided if they wanted to invest in their future and retirement or if they wanted to have more money on their paycheques. Many people, including people of the union that I work for, unfortunately chose to put in on a cheque.
Right now, we are looking at reviewing that situation. However, it comes down to dollars. Either we are going to have a bigger deficit to pay the benefits for these teachers or we are going to need the resources to address that need.
Senator Raine: It is not easy.
Senator Dallaire: The change of reporting system is a direct cause from Bill C-2. Not only you, but also everybody else in the federal government has gone through a massive waste of rations and trees by this Federal Accountability Act.
The paper work you have to do reminds me of how CIDA works with developing countries and projects in the field. One must write a master's thesis every time 50 cents is received in order to get any support. I wonder whether or not CIDA and INAC have the same philosophy in regards to the rules. I am not sure which one is doing a better job at it.
You said that it is difficult for people who have never visited a reserve to be responsible for making decisions about the reserves. I refer to the staff at INAC. You used Senator Demers as an example. It would be interesting if this committee visited the people working at INAC on the education side and talked to them, instead of getting all the stories from DGs, ADMs and DMs. Why do we not talk with them? It might be good for their morale. It might be good for ours to talk to the people who are responsible for such decisions.
We have just gone through a significant exercise on water legislation. INAC felt that was an absolute requirement to meet the needs of First Nations. INAC felt it was necessary to manage the funds and projects to provide clean water to the First Nations. I believe the auditor general did it; however, that does not necessarily make it more effective.
The education side has no new legislation to cover the sum. It certainly does not have the legislation reference to give INAC the mandate to write the regulations or ensure the funding levels, and needs such as infrastructure in order to implement an education system as complex as we have created in this archaic federal-provincial system.
Should we recommend that a comprehensive legislation be established in order to impose the regulations upon the department and give it the authority to get the funding to meet your needs?
Mr. Isaac: I agree with what I believe I am hearing. We lobbied our local MP about three years ago. He informed —
Senator Dallaire: You are not supposed to have an MP. You are a separate nation.
Mr. Isaac: Yes, but we are —
Senator Dallaire: You have a local one, anyway.
Mr. Isaac: When we were lobbying for funds, he stated that we injected — I forget the amount, into education. However, those dollars had never filtered down to the First Nation. When we lobbied him, we had no answer for him as to what happened.
He asked, "We just put all these dollars into education. Where did they go?" Some time after that, we did a review and we found out that INAC had increased their bureaucracy. I would love to see the government oversee their responsibility of their different departments to find out where those dollars are going.
These dollars are being moved from this table to somewhere. It is only right for you to check and find out exactly where those dollars are going. I am here to tell you today that those dollars are not filtering down to us, the individual First Nations, the students, the teachers and the staff who require them.
If that could happen, it would be great. Perhaps the dollars that are implemented could put to better use. Perhaps there is adequate funding there. However, I do not know where those dollars are going. We do plenty of reporting on the dollars that we receive.
Senator Dallaire: What is the student population from grade 1 to K12 in your area of responsibility?
Mr. Isaac: We just initiated a full-time junior kindergarten, as the province has issued. Unfortunately, we do not have the funds to hire the early childhood education teachers as required by the province as well. At my First Nation, we have approximately 400 students from JK to Grade 12.
Senator Dallaire: When was the last time you had any new infrastructure built in your area for school amenities such as a gym or a pool?
Mr. Isaac: I believe our school was built in 1954 or 1957. It is basically the same school. There have been a few additions to it. I do not know when the most recent addition was —
Senator Dallaire: You have answered the question.
Mr. Isaac: It was quite a while ago.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: Is the funding formula that is allocated from the government the same for the First Nations, such as your 4,000 community members, as it is across Canada?
Mr. Isaac: We have over 4,000 community members.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: My community has 2,500. Does the formula allocate the same amount of money?
Mr. Isaac: To my understanding, yes. I do not know who developed these formulas or how they came up with them.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: Take a guess.
Mr. Isaac: There are certain thresholds of numbers, but because of the new legislation with the McIvor Act, we are looking forward to possibly reaching 5,000. When we reach that threshold, we will receive a new batch of dollars. It is on a scale. It is the same thing with education.
I do not know the exact numbers. However, suppose you have 100 to 200 students. You get the same amount of funding for 100 students as you do for 199 students. It is a lot easier to meet the needs of 100 students than those of 199 students with the same dollars.
It would be nice to know who developed the funding formulas and the rationale behind them, but it would be nice to have the formulas reviewed.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: We have heard about the 2 per cent cap. Some people have said that there is no cap. You are saying that there is a cap. If that cap were lifted, it would help the First Nations for their education and the extra people that are coming in because of the McIvor case. Would that be a help for the First Nations?
Mr. Isaac: Even without the McIvor case, lifting that cap would be extremely helpful to our First Nation and our current population of students and staff.
That cap was instituted 15 to 17 years ago. It is impossible to keep up with inflation, the cost of living, infrastructure, equipment, supplies, and everything else that goes up. One just cannot keep up with it.
The Deputy Chair: I thank all honourable senators for their questions. I thank our witness, Mr. Isaac. You answered all the questions. We had some interesting questions today. As Senator Stewart Olsen said, you are our sole witness and you answered many questions extremely well. As a previous university professor and administrator, I say that you passed your PhD in oral defence admirably.
(The committee adjourned.)