Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Fisheries and Oceans
Issue 9 - Evidence - March 1, 2011
OTTAWA, Tuesday, March 1, 2011
The Standing Senate Committee on Fisheries and Oceans met this day at 6:20 p.m. to examine issues relating to the federal government's current and evolving policy framework for managing Canada's fisheries and oceans (topic: Canadian lighthouses).
Senator Dennis Glen Patterson (Deputy Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Deputy Chair: Good evening. I would like to call the meeting to order. It is my pleasure to welcome you to the Standing Senate Committee on Fisheries and Oceans. I am Senator Patterson from the Nunavut territory, and I am the deputy chair of the committee. I welcome the witnesses. I will invite members of the committee to introduce themselves.
Senator Watt: I am Senator Watt from Nunavik, the Inuit territory.
Senator Raine: I am Senator Raine from British Columbia.
Senator Hubley: I am Senator Hubley from Prince Edward Island, close to the West Point Lighthouse.
Senator Cochrane: I am Senator Cochrane from Newfoundland and Labrador.
Senator Poirier: I am Senator Poirier from New Brunswick.
Senator MacDonald: I am Senator Michael MacDonald from Nova Scotia.
The Deputy Chair: Our committee is continuing our study of lighthouses with a focus on the implementation of the Heritage Lighthouse Protection Act. Last week, we were pleased to hear representatives from the provinces of Quebec and Ontario on this matter. We now welcome representatives from the provinces of Prince Edward Island and New Brunswick. Ms. Carol Livingstone is President of the Prince Edward Island Lighthouse Society. Ms. Kelly Anne Loughery is Founder of the New Brunswick Lighthouse Society.
Welcome. Thank you both for agreeing to appear today. We will start with Ms. Loughery. You can undoubtedly expect some questions from senators afterwards.
Kelly Anne Loughery, as an individual: Mr. Chair, honourable senators, thank you for the privilege of appearing before you on behalf of the lighthouses of New Brunswick. I do not represent any organization, nor do I come here on behalf of any one lighthouse, organization or project. I have been involved with lighthouse preservation and the lighthouse community at large since 1996. I hope to introduce you to the lighthouses of New Brunswick.
You should have before you a report that I submitted for your February 15 session. Perhaps you also have several pages of photos that will help you follow along with the lighthouses to which I am referring.
The Deputy Chair: If not, they are available at the front.
Ms. Loughery: New Brunswick is the largest of the Maritime provinces. Its name conjures up images of quaint seaside villages and iconic coastal beacons. We have the third-largest collection of lighthouses in Canada, behind Nova Scotia and Ontario, with 70 authentic towers still in existence. New Brunswick is a diverse, multicultural province and is proud to be the only officially bilingual province in Canada. The waterways and communities that are home to our lighthouses are just as diverse.
We will start with the Bay of Fundy. It is home to the highest tides in the world. An area known as the Fundy Isles is located in the southern portion of the province. Campobello Island, Grand Manan, Deer Island and the Passamaquoddy Bay are home to a number of important lighthouses.
Imagine the force of 100 billion tonnes of water being displaced twice a day and the wear that places on the lighthouses. Those are the tides in our Bay of Fundy. Picture yourself in a lighthouse on a rock — not an island, but a rock. This is Gannet Rock. Gannet Rock is Canada's only wave-swept lighthouse and the third-oldest wooden lighthouse. It has recently been condemned. It was left to its own against the elements. It is strong. It was built to withstand the forces of nature far longer than any other lights. However, make no mistake. Mother Nature will win this in the end. This is our greatest shame when it comes to preserving our lighthouse heritage.
There are several success stories in the Fundy Isles. Head Harbour on Campobello Island is the oldest wooden lighthouse in Canada — a distinction that has earned it the Federal Heritage Buildings Review Office's, FHBRO, classified designation. It was turned over to a community group in 2005. Its location is picturesque and unique. However, it presented a number of challenges for this group. From the onset, the station required a great deal of work. They are making progress at this beautiful light station.
Swallowtail on Grand Manan has been in the hands of the village of Grand Manan since 1996. A bed and breakfast was operated in the keepers dwelling for several years, but it closed in 2004. Since then, the station has not been used. When the village council decided in 2008 that they would sell the keepers dwelling, a great public outcry resulted in the formation of the Swallowtail Keepers Society, the group that currently has stewardship of the light station. An environmental site cleanup was done in 2009, and the tower was repainted thanks to the Rotary Club. In July of 2010, during festivities celebrating the station's sesquicentennial, the province announced $55,000 to be given to further the society's goals. I am looking forward to seeing what they have done with the station when I go there this summer.
On the mainland, the Green's Point Light Association has been operating the lighthouse of the same name since 2006 through a series of leases and agreements with the local Coast Guard. The station was officially turned over to them in 2008. Revenue for this project comes primarily from a rental cottage that is on the property. They rent it for $500 a week, and it is fully booked a year in advance. They have a lot of income there to take care of their station.
While that station was turned over, the Musquash Head lighthouse further up the bay was also turned over to a local community group. The driving force behind this project was Patrick Donovan, who had a knack for getting things done in Lorneville. A large parcel of land went with this deal, most of which has been turned over to the Nature Conservancy of Canada. The group retained just a few acres around the lighthouse for its use. It is a magnificent stretch of coastline just west of Saint John. The plan was to develop it as little as possible in keeping with ecotourism and the wetlands nearby. Mr. Donovan works for the Coast Guard. Unfortunately, he is no longer in New Brunswick. Without his strong leadership, nothing has taken place at that light station.
The greatest missed opportunity we have in regards to lighthouses in New Brunswick is right at the gateway to Saint John. That is Partridge Island. It is the site of the first lighthouse in New Brunswick, the first quarantine station in North America, and the first steam fog alarm in the entire world. Today, Partridge Island is a wasteland with nothing remaining on it but the lighthouse. It is designated as both a national and a provincial heritage site. It has tremendous history, yet it is all but ignored. Over 200,000 cruise ship passengers visited the city of Saint John last year. Those numbers are expected to increase in the future. Visitors are fascinated by the stories of the Irish immigrants who came through Partridge Island. Over 2,000 of them perished in 1847 alone on Partridge Island. This area cries out for development. However, today, the only visitors out there are vandals and hooligans. It is sad. The tower out there is the fourth on the island and the most powerful light in New Brunswick.
Further up the coast, just past Fundy National Park, is Cape Enrage. This thriving station is another of New Brunswick's success stories. In 1993, Dennison Tate, a high school teacher in Moncton, obtained a federal grant allowing him to hire six students. Together they painted and refurbished the aging keepers dwelling that was slated for demolition. The following year, late in 1994, the province stepped in and obtained the light station from the federal government.
Cape Enrage Adventures, under the direction of Dennison Tate and his wife Anne, continued to hire summer students and to operate the station as an outdoor adventure destination. Buildings were completely renovated and new ones were built, but more important, the lives of many young men and women were enriched thanks to their time at Cape Enrage. The project changed hands several years ago when Dennison stepped down, and unfortunately they no longer use students at that site.
One of the most picturesque lighthouses in the province is also the most mobile. It is called Anderson Hollow, and it has been moved a total of four times since it first sat at the end of a wharf in the tiny community of Waterside. In the 1970s, the lighthouse was purchased from a private owner by the Albert County Heritage Trust and moved to Riverside-Albert. In 2001, it was moved to its current location in the newly established Harvey Bank Heritage Shipyard Park in Mary's Point. It is a very pastoral setting, with a beautiful lighthouse and location.
That was the Bay of Fundy. A most significant and often overlooked waterway in New Brunswick, however, is the Saint John River. One need only navigate its lower reaches between Fredericton and Saint John or drive the river road that follows the shore through bucolic countryside to understand why this river is called "the Rhine of North America.''
It is also along this stretch of river that we find the only system of inland lighthouses in Atlantic Canada. Built originally as leading lights to guide the genteel river boats, there are 12 remaining, 6 of which are still active aids to navigation.
During my 15 years of lighthouse work, I have been involved in acquiring two lighthouses, both of which are located on the Kingston Peninsula along the Saint John River. The Cedars was the project that first plunged me into lighthouse preservation work. After a nine-year nightmare of bureaucratic red tape, this small decommissioned lighthouse was finally turned over to a local heritage group in 2005. Other than a walking trail to this site, little has been done with this project since.
The second lighthouse was the Bayswater Light, for which I acted only in an advisory capacity. To my knowledge, this is the only lighthouse that has been turned over since the Heritage Lighthouse Protection Act — and this was just last year.
A local community group acquired a lease on the lighthouse, and the understanding is that the lighthouse is to be turned over to them after two years. In less than four months they have already done quite a few renovations, including a complete paint job on the lighthouse, and they have landscaping on the schedule for this summer. I believe you have a report in front of you from their project coordinator, Alvin Currie. This should be attached to the earlier report I submitted.
A third lighthouse on the river, the Hendry Farm, was turned over to the Village of Cambridge Narrows in 2005, in a ceremony attended by Senator Day of New Brunswick. Although the village originally had plans to relocate the lighthouse, they have decided to leave it in its original location, and an attractive marker has been erected near it.
The Northumberland Strait is our next waterway, the border between New Brunswick and our "Gentle Island'' neighbours. Where ferries once shuttled passengers between the two provinces, we now have the Confederation Bridge. At the end of that span, we find the most desperate of New Brunswick lighthouses, Cape Jourimain. Part of the Cape Jourimain Nature Centre, this lighthouse is in deplorable condition, despite having a recognized FHBRO heritage designation.
What is really sad and more than a little embarrassing for us is that this is the first lighthouse that visitors see when they enter New Brunswick from Prince Edward Island. It is a striking contrast to the beautiful lighthouses found on the Island. This should be at the top of the priority list when it comes to New Brunswick's lighthouses. It really needs some attention.
The Gulf of St. Lawrence is devoid of accessible lighthouses until you actually get up to Shippagan on the New Brunswick side. In 1986, the City of Shippagan purchased the old Portage Island lighthouse that originally sat at the entrance to Miramichi Bay. It now sits on the city's boardwalk adjacent to the New Brunswick Aquarium and Marine Centre and is maintained in excellent condition. This lighthouse should be the focus of any Acadian promotional literature rather than the unauthentic-looking imitation structure in Grande-Anse.
Also in Shippagan is the Big Shippagan Lighthouse. It is one of only nine octagonal wooden towers we still have in New Brunswick. It houses a beautiful Chance Brothers lantern, which is the only one in the province. It is a little difficult to get to, but it is a fabulous location, nestled amongst the area's delicate sand dunes out there. It is lovely.
Miscou Island was one of the province's first lighthouse projects. It is located in the tower, and it is the very northeastern tip of the province. I always like to think of it as a push pin holding the corner of the province down there. It was closed for eight years due to environmental issues. The province finally stepped in with $2 million, and the site was reopened in time to host the opening ceremonies of the World Acadian Congress in 2009. The tower itself was reopened for visitors the following year. It is the only authentic lighthouse in New Brunswick that has an operating Fresnel lens.
The Caraquet area on the Baie-des-Chaleurs has several lighthouses. One, which is the newest in the province, is located in a park, and it is owned by the City of Caraquet. The other has been moved to Bas-Caraquet, and it has been disfigured by a large attached patio structure. It is a good example of what we do not want to see happen to our authentic lighthouses.
The final lighthouse I want to talk about is Inch Arran, located in Dalhousie. This lighthouse has FHBRO recognized status, thanks to its unusual birdcage lantern design. It is located in a park and was in excellent condition when I last visited it in 2009. However, it has been featured in a number of photos this past winter being pummelled by the storm surges that plagued the area last December, so I am not sure what the condition is now, although I do not believe any major damage has been done to it.
This concludes my presentation. Once again, I would like to thank the committee for inviting me here and giving me the opportunity to introduce you to the lighthouses of New Brunswick. I am happy to address any questions or concerns you might have, but please keep in mind that I do not represent any lighthouse group or any particular site, so my knowledge of any specifics at sites is a bit limited. However, I am more than happy to answer your questions. Thank you very much for your time.
The Deputy Chair: Thank you, Ms. Loughery.
I will suggest, if it is agreeable to committee members, that we go to Ms. Livingstone now. If we could ask you to hold your questions, then we can ask questions of both witnesses.
Carol Livingstone, President, Prince Edward Island Lighthouse Society: I would like to thank all of you for inviting me here to tell you about our Island lighthouses. They are a real passion of mine, and I am always ready and willing to share information about them. I had sent a report when we were to be here previously, and I have enlarged on it a bit more since that time.
I am here representing the Prince Edward Island Lighthouse Society. It is the second provincial lighthouse society in Canada, following Nova Scotia, and its role is to promote and preserve the lighthouses of Prince Edward Island — not only the buildings, but the artifacts, the stories, the pictures and all of those good things that we need to keep. It is a not-for-profit corporation.
In its role of promotion, it is currently hosting a series of meetings across the Island to tell people about the new Heritage Lighthouse Protection Act, the new program through Parks Canada. As part of that, we have put together a binder. We have divided the Island up into a number of groups so that no one has to travel far to get to an information meeting about the lighthouses in their area. This can be available to you, but I just picked up the latest version of it this morning in Charlottetown.
We told people what the act is about and how they can go about getting some of the heritage lighthouses. I will be giving all of you our new brochure. We have it in both French and English; we just finished it this summer.
On one side, we show you all of the lighthouses on the Island — there are 63. We have a small province, and we believe we have the greatest density of lighthouses. There is one lighthouse for every 34 square miles of land surface on P.E.I.
On the other side, these are the nine that we now have opened to the public. Of those nine, eight of them are already transferred under previous agreements or are in the process. There are a couple that are still in the latter stages of the transfer.
At any rate, we are fortunate in Prince Edward Island that our lighthouses are easily accessible. There are only four of them that you cannot reach by car. You can see those from the main part of the Island. That is probably one of the reasons that our Island lighthouses have been kept in such good condition. They are very much loved and cherished by the people who live around them. I do not believe that we will have a hard time finding homes for most of these.
We have about 15 lighthouses that are either privately owned or belong to community groups, aside from the ones that are open. Of those privately owned lighthouses, there are only three, possibly four, that have not been kept in good condition.
Interestingly, I have a volunteer, a former Islander now living in Connecticut, who wants to come to the Island this summer and help out with lighthouses. I have discussed that with one of the owners of one of the private lights. I know it is no longer in the hands of the government, but visitors and Islanders look at it as one of our lighthouses, and it needs to be better looked after than it is. Hopefully by the end of this summer, with the volunteer working with that owner, it will be in better shape.
Looking at my list here, as I mentioned, there are 63 lighthouses and range light buildings or structures on P.E.I., and 40 of them are still active aids to navigation. As I mentioned, there are 9 that are opened in the summer and 15 that are privately owned.
Of the remaining 39, the following 6 have been planning since 2000 to assume ownership of their lighthouses. I am not sure whether you people were involved in lighthouse issues at that point, but Ms. Loughery, myself and a number of other people were. We felt we were close to having many lighthouses transferred around 2000-01, but that fell through.
Indian Head Lighthouse is the big lighthouse in Bedeque Bay, which is the outer lighthouse for Summerside Harbour. North Cape is another of the big lighthouses. Northport Range Rear, Cape Egmont, New London and Howard's Cove have all declared their interest and are in the process of filling out the papers.
Of the remaining 33, there are some major lighthouses such as the Block Head Light, Seacow Head, North Rustico and Shipwreck Point. Some interest has been expressed in those, and some are at locations where we will be holding meetings. Although there is interest, I do not think they have begun the process of applying for their lighthouses.
We are pleased that next week Norman Shields from Parks Canada, the Heritage Lighthouses of Canada program, and Barry MacDonald, who is on the selection committee, will be visiting Prince Edward Island, because we have a number of questions. When we have the meetings, a number of questions arise that we perhaps do not have the answers to. Therefore, we feel there will be good participation at those meetings, or at least we will try to see that there is.
I would like to share with you the concerns that have come up, either from our lighthouse society or from the people who attend the meetings. These could be things that you may want to keep in mind.
There is some concern about road access to some of the sites that currently have Coast Guard-only rights-of-way. Last summer, as I frequently do, I was taking pictures of Island lighthouses. I went to the tiny one at Malpeque, the front range, and I asked the gentlemen who was in his backyard if he would mind if I look took a picture because obviously it was his land. I asked him if they were forming a group to take over the lighthouse. He said, "No, I do not have to.'' I was curious and asked why. He said, "I own all the land around the road that leads in. The land that is here is mine, and there is only a Coast Guard right-of-way.'' He said no one else could come on the land, and basically he felt it would be his lighthouse. I do not think it should work that way, and that is a concern.
I think you will likely find all across the country these rights-of-way that the Coast Guard staff use to go down to service the lights. I am not sure how that will be solved, but I do know that it will be an issue. I know there are a number of them on the Island, and I have no doubt there will be in other parts of the country as well. Whether the current landowners will grant the right-of-way to a group or whether the lighthouses will be moved and a modern beacon put up, I am not sure what the answer will be. It is certainly a concern.
Some people have raised the issue that they want to be sure that the lighthouses are environmentally clean and safe when they take them over. There is concern, as I am sure Ms. Loughery mentioned, and you may be wondering what is happening at Inch Arran in New Brunswick. There are some lighthouses on Prince Edward Island that are close to an eroding cape. In the severe storm surges that we had in December, the small range light at Murray Harbour, front range, was swept right from its base and tumbled 275 feet inland. That is quite an old light. I believe it is from 1878 or 1898. It has been checked out by FHBRO, and I do not believe it is on the list of a dozen that I saw, but it has been investigated. It is probably recognized.
There is concern about relocating those lighthouses and who would do it if it needs to be done, and so on. They are also wondering whether there could perhaps be a national group insurance policy for lighthouses. I spoke to someone, I believe in Ontario. There had been some concerns there. However, when they look at them and ask, "Has anyone fallen over the side or been pushed over the side? Has anyone had real problems with the lid?'' et cetera, the answer is invariably no. It might be good if we could get some national company that would be interested in taking on a group insurance policy. I know that is probably not an issue, but it is a concern that was raised, and I promised I would pass the concerns on.
The cost of adhering to heritage building standards is of concern to some people. I believe most had questions about the ongoing operation of the navigation lights, but my understanding is that the Coast Guard will look after that.
People are concerned that they have a good idea of the condition of the lights — by saying "lights,'' I mean "lighthouses.'' They are concerned about the condition of the tower, for example. Is there rot or anything like that? They want to have a good idea of what they are getting into.
Guidelines for the care and maintenance of the buildings, the lights and other equipment are important. A group with the best intentions could take over a lighthouse but not be familiar with everything, not only for the building but also the terminology that the Coast Guard uses to refer to specific parts of a lighthouse and so on. Many people are not familiar with that. Some kind of a guidebook or guidelines should be part of a package that prospective adoptive parents receive before they get a lighthouse.
A real concern that I have and that others share is the removal of some of the historic lenses. Sometimes they have been removed from the lantern and relocated to another part of the building. Other times, they have been entirely removed. I would like to see a cessation of any removal of artifacts because if we want people to take these lighthouses over, partly it will be for tourism purposes, which will help to fund the upkeep of the lighthouses. If most of the historic lenses or other artifacts have been removed from them, it will lessen their attractiveness. Keep in mind, if you are making recommendations, that the more the authentic equipment, the lenses and other things related to the operation of the lighthouses can be retained, the better it will be for everyone.
There was a lot of discussion around 2000 regarding turning over lighthouses. The question that was raised then is being raised again: What if a group with the best of intentions is not able, for one reason or another, to look after that light? Will there be some kind of contingency plan so that it can be reoffered for sale if a community group cannot or will not look after it and keep it up to standard? That is something to consider.
There are cases that probably would be similar to the right-of-way ones. Sometimes groups are formed where it is almost all family members, and the intent may not be for public use of the places. We would like to emphasize that we want to see the public have access to them. I think that these lighthouses were built by Canadians for Canadians, and we should still be able to visit them and share them.
In one of the last meetings we had, some people were wondering about the cost of taxes. Can a small group take over these buildings? Will there be prohibitive taxation? I think that would be provincial taxation and might be something the groups will have to take up. These will likely be non-profit groups, so there may be provisions in the different provinces for getting relief from the provincial taxes. We are not sure. However, that concern has been forwarded to me to pass along to you.
Some lighthouses have poor roads to reach them. There was some concern there. Again, we felt that was something that would be talked about with the provincial government to see if it could scrape them. No one is asking for a four- lane highway, but it is a challenge to get to some of the remote lighthouses.
Those are some of the concerns.
I have been involved with the West Point Lighthouse since its inception. It is close to my home and close to my heart. There was a family connection, and we lived in the house next to the lighthouse. It was in poor shape, and so was our community in many ways. There was a feeling of apathy. We were sitting and waiting for other people to do something for us. A politician came into the house one evening, and I was grouching about what one community was getting and what another community was getting and West Point was not getting anything. He asked me a question that opened my eyes. He said, "What did you ask for?'' I think that our lighthouse groups, not just the one at West Point, have lighted the way for others because we got into this in 1983-84. It provided a much-needed spark for our community. It made us realize that a few people with a strong commitment, hard work and volunteer effort could make a difference in where we lived.
The lighthouse started out as just the tower itself. Since that time, we have rebuilt the house, and we started in that house. First we rebuilt the dwelling, and then we had people staying there. Then we needed a chowder kitchen. Three years later, we could not keep up with the demand for accommodation or food, and we expanded to nine rooms. Just this past year it was expanded further, and there are 14 rooms. There is a museum of lighthouse equipment, and the restaurant that had been there has moved over to the West Point Harbourside Centre. Our park was to be closed because it is located within Cedar Dunes Provincial Park. The park has been kept open and is one of the few provincial parks on the Island that is making money, not just breaking even. People have to book well ahead if they want a season pass, and so on. It is a beautiful one. It was badly hit by the storm last year, but the community is rallying around.
The success of this small lighthouse, which is actually the biggest one on the Island, has shown people that you can make a success. We are just a small community of 100-and-some people, but the people in the whole area look at it as their lighthouse. It is even on the masthead of one of the two Island newspapers. When they called me, not that I had any authority, to ask if they could use it, I said, "I would be delighted, but why do you want it?'' They said, "Because it symbolizes something enduring. It symbolizes the community. It symbolizes a lot of what is good about Prince Edward Island.'' It is not just our lighthouse that does that; other ones that are open do that as well.
The lighthouses are good for tourism. They get people off the beaten track and into the countryside. They give people a renewed sense of interest, and the schoolchildren are doing projects on lighthouses. We are raising a new generation of lightkeepers. All across the country, we need to do that. We have not had a lighthouse with a lightkeeper since the early 1990s, but the man who was the last keeper, Francis McIntosh, goes down every day to the Souris lighthouse. They just opened that last year. The lighthouses that are open have made a difference on Prince Edward Island. They are used in many of the tourism promotions and so on. Just as I am not interested only in West Point, the others are not. We are interested in the ones across the Atlantic, and so on. We feel that lighthouses are worth keeping.
Someone asked me once why I am interested in them so much. I said that I feel strongly that for more than a century, the lighthouses have looked after us as a country. It is now time for us, as the people of this country, to look after our lighthouses. That is kind of the mantra or the message that I keep saying, and they are worth keeping.
We had an interesting program for a number of years on Prince Edward Island. We called it the Follow the Lights program. It went from 15 to 17 lighthouses on the Island, where we placed historic plaques. In the corner of every plaque there would be a brass rubbing, and people would go from one to the other. If they visited at least eight lighthouses and presented their sheet, they would get a lighthouse lovers certificate.
That is not worth a lot as far as dollars and cents are concerned, but the sense of having gone from one end of the Island to the other kept people going, and it was very popular. Then there was the concern about environmental issues, and we stopped the program.
I would love to see the program renewed, and not only on Prince Edward Island; we need something like that across the country that says, "I was there and I have the certificate to prove it.'' It is really important. I believe we need to keep people going from place to place.
That is the message I have to bring to you. I am quite familiar with most of the Island lighthouses, so if you have questions that I cannot answer, I will get back to you.
The Deputy Chair: That was excellent, ladies. I found it fitting that you shared your aphorism about lighthouses looking after us for more than a century; now we can look after the lighthouses. That is an appropriate theme for this part of our study. Thank you both.
Senator MacDonald: Thank you, ladies, for coming today. I know we all have questions; I will not be too long.
Ms. Loughery, I will ask you a couple of questions first. There are many lighthouses in New Brunswick, and you are the founder of the New Brunswick Lighthouse Society. It is defunct. Is there something to replace it?
Ms. Loughery: No. There is nothing of its kind in New Brunswick.
Senator MacDonald: I am baffled by that. I would think there would be a lot of community concern about these lighthouses in New Brunswick. Can you shed light on this?
Ms. Loughery: I started the New Brunswick society in 2000; it folded in 2003. By working with seniors, I found that each province has a different focus in its lighthouse society. On Prince Edward Island, they have it all together when it comes to their projects and supporting one another. They realize the value of tourism, and the provincial government's tourism department realizes the value of the lighthouses, and they all work together.
In Nova Scotia, the lighthouse society is quintessential for preservation. For many years, they have had diehard people working to preserve lighthouses who work for the Heritage Lighthouse Protection Act. I was hoping for it to be a blend of the two.
I seem to have a problem getting the various projects in New Brunswick to realize the value of a combined effort in promotion. In other words, if they promote someone else's lighthouse, it is for the greater good.
I am not sure what the problem was in New Brunswick. We had many great people in the lighthouse society who liked lighthouses. They liked visiting lighthouses and doing social things. However, it just never seemed to get off the ground as far as being a real lighthouse preservation society. I cannot really put my finger on what the problem was.
Senator MacDonald: I have noticed that a number of lighthouses are now owned by community groups.
Ms. Loughery: Yes.
Senator MacDonald: Was your organization involved in establishing the ownership of any of those previous organizations?
Ms. Loughery: No. Most of the lighthouses that have been turned over have been turned over since that time. There are a few projects, such as Cape Enrage and Green's Point, that had projects operating at them before that time. Miscou Island did. It was one of the first projects. A wonderful group of ladies had the tower open for a number of years. It was closed for environmental issues in 2000, 2001. They did have a project operating there.
Several of the lighthouses were turned over in 2005, 2008, so that was after the lighthouse society had folded.
Senator MacDonald: I want to ask a few questions about the Miscou Island Lighthouse. It was shut down in 2001 for environmental reasons.
Ms. Loughery: Yes.
Senator MacDonald: It was still functioning, I take it. Do you mean access was shut down or the lighthouse itself was shut down?
Ms. Loughery: Access was shut down. It has a large third-order Fresnel lens. You are probably familiar with Fresnel lenses and how they operate by floating in a mercury bath. They found mercury contamination in the tower and would not let anyone in. You would have to be shut up in a closed tower for many years for it to affect you. It would never have affected the people who come in for 20 minutes at a time in an open tower. However, it was an environmental issue, and it was closed down.
It was a problem that was supposed to be cleaned up in a few months, and it was eight years before it was reopened, and only when the province stepped in with a substantial amount of money to clean the site up.
Senator MacDonald: I am interested, because I am one of those people who believe that a lighthouse with that lens is a real lighthouse. My hometown of Louisbourg still has the lens, but it is not in the lighthouse, and many people want to put it back in. Is it still sitting in a mercury bath?
Ms. Loughery: No. It is operating. It is still a revolving Fresnel lens. I am familiar with how the more modern mechanisms work, but it is no longer in a mercury bath.
Senator MacDonald: They have found a solution that allows them to use it?
Ms. Loughery: It was not in a mercury bath when it was closed down. This would have been just old contamination. They go in with a Geiger counter or something and show there was contamination.
Senator MacDonald: I have seen the Cape Jourimain Lighthouse many times.
Ms. Loughery: It is beautiful.
Senator MacDonald: It is. I always thought it was in deplorable condition. There is a visitors centre there. Is that the provincial visitors centre?
Ms. Loughery: Yes. It is a popular visitors centre because it is at the end of the Confederation Bridge; it is the first place people stop. It is a beautiful nature centre. Lovely paths meander through there, and then you have the lighthouse.
Senator MacDonald: I do not understand why, with an entry point to the province like that, the province would not step in and put some whitewash or paint on it.
Ms. Loughery: Maybe the province would listen to you more than to me.
Senator MacDonald: It is a visible and lovely lighthouse. It looks deplorable.
Ms. Loughery: The ospreys love it. They build nests in the lantern gallery. They try to keep those out.
As I mentioned, people come from Prince Edward Island. There are beautiful lighthouses there. Cape Jourimain is the first lighthouse people see in New Brunswick. For a number of reasons, it should be maintained: It has the FHBRO designation; it is a heritage building; it is the first lighthouse people see; it is one of only nine wooden, octagonal towers in the province. For any number of reasons, it should be fixed up. That is why, to me, it is at the top of the priority list for lighthouses in New Brunswick.
Senator MacDonald: Are there any moves afoot to establish an organization based on the template in Nova Scotia?
Ms. Loughery: Not that I know of. I am not sure who would do that.
Senator MacDonald: There are many large, beautiful lighthouses in New Brunswick, and it should be organized.
Ms. Loughery: Along the same lines that it was difficult to get one project to promote or support another, it was difficult to get them even interested in a lighthouse society. As I mentioned, the Prince Edward Island Lighthouse Society is pretty much made up of representatives from the projects that see the value of a central organization. It was difficult to get the projects out there at the time to see the value of a lighthouse society. It was frustrating.
Senator MacDonald: I am sure it was.
Ms. Loughery: I do not know whether anyone has any aspirations.
Senator MacDonald: You are here today to speak up for them. Thank you.
Senator Poirier: Thank you for being here. As a New Brunswicker, I find it sad to see that there is not an organization there. Are there no other groups in New Brunswick that look after lighthouses or have them at heart? Is there no movement whatsoever?
Ms. Loughery: No, not that I know of.
Senator Poirier: In my first few years as a member of the legislative assembly, I remember receiving a beautiful calendar with lighthouses. Each month showed a different lighthouse. We got bookmarks and different things sent to us from a lady I thought was in the Fredericton area.
Ms. Loughery: Yes. The name of her organization was Promoting New Brunswick.
Senator Poirier: The focus was on the lighthouse. I remember that. What she sent us was gorgeous. Was she part of a group at that time? Was that an existing group or an individual?
Ms. Loughery: No. She got a provincial grant to set up this business. She got a van and some camera equipment. It was her business. She had a printing business. That was just something that she and her husband did. She passed away a number of years ago now.
Senator Poirier: I have been to Miscou Island. When I first was there, they were renovating and would not let me in. They were scared that someone would get injured. I have been there and am aware.
Ms. Loughery: Were you up for the opening of the World Acadian Congress?
Senator Poirier: No, but I was part of the legislative assembly when the money was given for the area to fix it. I remember the $2 million was not just for the lighthouse but for the whole site.
Ms. Loughery: When I was there, there was heavy equipment.
Senator Poirier: When I went there, the trails were made already and there were boardwalks. It is a beautiful site. I agree that it is too bad some of the provinces are not richer when it comes to something like that. A few more sites could be out there and be an example, as this one is here.
Ms. Loughery: That is a substantial amount of money, $2 million. Not nearly that much would need to be put in to developing the lighthouses.
Senator Poirier: This one was developing, and the World Acadian Congress that would be coming there played a role in that community's being able to get access to funding over and above what they would normally have got, so they took advantage and applied for it and did something gorgeous.
Ms. Loughery: That dollar amount could be a bit scary.
Senator Poirier: You could sit there on the rocks and look out at the ocean for hours and you would not get bored. It is a beautiful spot to be in.
Because there has been no active society now since 2003, because there are no other groups there, because we have lost the lady who was doing the calendars and the promotion, I am a little worried. Is there anyone out there encouraging New Brunswick organizations, community groups and individuals, making them aware of what is out there with the Heritage Lighthouse Protection Act? Is there any movement?
In P.E.I. you talked about information sessions going on, which is fantastic. I am a little worried about New Brunswick, that we do not have anything; the two years will go by fast, and we will lose the opportunity. Do you know of any movement anywhere? Is any promotion being done, other than what we are doing on the website as a committee?
Ms. Loughery: There is nothing that I know of. One reason I stepped away from the lighthouse society was that I was hoping to work more closely with the province, but as soon as I did that, I was told they wanted to work with someone with a title, not necessarily with someone who knew about lighthouses. They wanted to work with the president of a lighthouse society.
I did try to work with the province. I had hoped to do a little more of that. Perhaps Tourism New Brunswick would be someplace to go. I am not sure. I do not know of any individuals or organizations that are looking at New Brunswick as a whole.
Senator Poirier: Of the existing lighthouses, some are being managed by non-profit organizations already; some are successful at what they are doing. Are you aware of whether there are any demands in the system right now from any of the New Brunswick ones? Have you heard rumours that anyone is thinking of making a request to a community or an individual or privately?
Ms. Loughery: No. I apologize. This is what I was saying. I do not really have my finger on the pulse of individual sites the way Ms. Livingstone does. I mentioned Bayswater, a small community on the Kingston Peninsula, where I lived. I was told by one of my Coast Guard contacts. I do work at the Coast Guard base. My focus now is preserving documents and the history and photographs of lighthouses. This has been my focus for the last few years. One of my Coast Guard contacts phoned me and let me know that this Bayswater lighthouse was on a demolition list. I called up someone I knew down in the community and they threw together a committee and within four months had a lease on this little lighthouse. It happened quickly and successfully. I did know about that.
I knew about that a little more because it was in my own backyard. I do not know anything that is going on at any of the specific lighthouses around any groups that might be interested in specific or individual lighthouses. I am not really sure.
The condition of our lighthouses is dramatically different between the Bay of Fundy area, which is governed by the Coast Guard out of Saint John, and our East Coast and North Shore area, which is governed out of Charlottetown. East Coast and North Shore lighthouses are in excellent condition. The environment in the Bay of Fundy is hard on our lighthouses. Many of them were replaced back in the 1960s and 1970s. The lovely wooden towers were torn down. We have concrete or fibreglass towers there in many cases. If a group were to step in and take something over, much more work would be involved in the lighthouses in the southern portion of the province than in the East Coast and North Shore. Those lighthouses are smaller, much more accessible and in better shape.
Senator Poirier: I have several questions for Ms. Livingstone. You mentioned that one of your concerns is that some of the lighthouses would be picked up privately instead of by a community group and would not be open to the public. You mentioned that some are privately owned now. Are they open to the public?
Ms. Livingstone: No, they are not. The late 1950s and early 1960s is when most of the lighthouses on Prince Edward Island were de-staffed, except for a few on the eastern end of the Island, and some lighthouses were sold at that time. I believe all of the ones that are privately owned probably were purchased at that time. None have been divested recently, at least none that I am aware of for sure.
Senator Poirier: I liked your idea of the map, going around with the certificate. I thought it was a great idea. You mentioned that you had stopped that because of environmental issues. Can you explain to me what environmental issues they were concerned about? Was it just the vehicles going around? Who asked you to stop it? Was it the provincial government?
Ms. Livingstone: There was a great hue and cry at the time, and it was more than one provincial government. I am not sure whether the federal people were involved. I suspect they were, through the Coast Guard. As Ms. Loughery mentioned, there was concern about the mercury, not that there was mercury left in the lighthouses, but sometimes it would have spilled on the floors. Lead paint then became an issue. I always found that one hard to swallow, because lighthouses were not the only buildings that were painted with lead paint. The inns, the churches, the houses, everything was covered with lead paint. They stopped using lead paint in the mid-1970s to no later than the mid-1980s. Right now, I cannot tell you which.
They were concerned that the lighthouses are well kept. On P.E.I. they are very well kept, actually. When the Coast Guard staff or whoever the painters were scraped them, the flecks of paint would get on the ground. Someone might reach down and get some of this lead paint that had been flaked off 10, 15, or 20 years ago, if you can imagine that. Ms. Loughery and I and some others used to have a good laugh. They were afraid because pregnant women or children would get it. I used to have visions of one of our square tapered lighthouses and some poor pregnant woman chewing it.
My great-grandfather helped to build the lighthouse at West Point and was then the keeper for 50 years. Two of my great aunts were born in that lighthouse, and probably half of the others were conceived in it. They did not go crazy. Some of them lived to 96 and 103 years old. I do not believe that people visiting these lighthouses would come to any harm.
Francis McIntosh grew up in the lighthouse and then was the lighthouse keeper, and he is still hale and hearty. He is not dead; he is not crazy; he suffers from none of the things that they are afraid lead might cause.
I suggested that we ask the keepers to take a blood test so that we could see how real this concern is. If they have a health problem, we should compensate them, if need be. If they have no health problems, perhaps we are overly concerned about the exposure. They did not accept my suggestion.
At one point, the earth had to be removed from around the lighthouses, and until it was removed we had to install an ugly snow fence to keep people away. The nice signs we had on the side of the lighthouses had to be moved back, and we eventually had to stop the program. We had to post signs indicating that there was possible contamination. It was a real tempest in a teapot, to put it more kindly than I sometimes felt like putting it.
I do not think this is a real danger, because the people who lived there did not die from that. What about the churches the people were attending and the government buildings? The Parliament Buildings probably have lead paint. They were all tarred with the same brush, if you know what I am saying. I felt that lighthouses were being unjustly targeted.
Senator Poirier: You also mentioned that some non-profit organizations were worried about how they would deal with property taxes and such things on their infrastructure if they took this on. I recommend that you check again with the provinces. Unless things have changed since I was involved in New Brunswick, different types of non-profit organizations had infrastructures that were exempt from property taxes. That may exist for certain things. I would recommend that you check into that possible benefit for some of the groups.
I am happy that you are here from New Brunswick, but I am a little sad that there is not more movement than that. The new casino that was built in Moncton has a lighthouse as its theme, yet we are having a hard time getting people involved in this. I am talking about it as much as I can in my part of the country. We have some very nice lighthouses there. The one I mentioned a while ago is very active, and we are trying to keep it going in order to have it as an icon in the community for many years to come.
I agree with you that Cape Jourimain needs some painting. Someone should look after it, be it the provincial government or a local group, because it is an eyesore.
Ms. Livingstone: In doing research on lighthouse history, I have read the Federal Heritage Buildings Review Office reports that talk about three sister lights. One was the North Cape Lighthouse, and another was Seacow Head, just across the strait from Cape Jourimain. The three sister lighthouses were all built just a few years before or after Confederation. As Ms. Loughery mentioned, New Brunswick has nine of those heavy timber octagonal lighthouses. I understand that there are only fifteen of them still in existence, the six others being on Prince Edward Island. The FHBRO reports said they are treasures well worth keeping.
The one at North Cape on Prince Edward Island and the other two sister lights will be adopted, so we will have to get someone in New Brunswick to take over the one there. It is a shame. It has even been featured on a stamp with the Confederation Bridge and the Cape Jourimain Lighthouse when it was well painted. It definitely needs to be looked after.
Ms. Loughery: The nature centre there would like to take it over, but they do not have the funds to do so. I have not been in touch with them for a few years, but I know there was some interest there.
Senator Poirier: Have they considered communicating with some of the other non-profit organizations in either P.E.I. or Nova Scotia that have taken over lighthouses to see what they have done and how they were able to motivate the community to organize something to become profitable? There are some that are profitable. We heard from P.E.I. and other places that they are self-sufficient, that they make it on their own. You could consider reaching out to those organizations to get some advice.
Ms. Loughery: They have almost taken a step back. There used to be an entrance fee of about $5 to access the trails behind the visitor information centre, and they did away with that last year.
Senator Poirier: Why?
Ms. Loughery: I do not know. I have not been in touch with them. Every few years they change managers, and some are more interested in the lighthouse than others. They did generate some revenue through the entrance fee. Perhaps they found that no one wanted to pay it, so they wanted to open it up so that all people could enjoy it. I am not sure what the rationale was.
I do not know whether they actually own the lighthouse. I am not sure whether it has been turned over to them. It was decommissioned when the Confederation Bridge was built, as were all of the lighthouses in the area. There is quite a concentration of lighthouses in the Cape Tormentine area, and they are all in wretched condition. The rest of them are small.
I am not sure where the nature centre stands on that, but it is sort of their icon. It is on the masthead of their promotional material, yet it continues to deteriorate. The problem is that once the paint wears off a wooden structure, it deteriorates 10 times faster than it did before. Something really must be done about that particular lighthouse.
Senator Hubley: Welcome to both of you. I have a quick question on the process. As we travelled around the Maritimes and the West Coast, we saw wonderful examples of community groups that were able to create a tourism activity around a lighthouse that became a good business.
What do you think we should recommend be changed in the process to give you the time necessary to study the potential of all the lighthouses in New Brunswick before any demolition or disposal other than to a community group takes place? We found that there was lack of communication at times, and people did not know the process. At that time, we were down to about a year to go. It seemed quick to me, and it probably seems quick to you. Do you have any comment on how we might improve the process to enable us to save more lighthouses in our areas? Do you have any comment on that, Ms. Loughery?
Ms. Loughery: I am a bit embarrassed to say that I am not familiar with the process now. As I said, I have taken a step back from that area.
However, when I worked on behalf of Peninsula Heritage trying to acquire the Cedars Lighthouse, it took nine years for this small, decommissioned lighthouse. There should be a handbook or guide for people who are interested in a lighthouse; it would be helpful to show them how to go about it step by step. One problem is that we deal with real property asset management, and as you know, government jobs change. The person I might have dealt with two years ago might be gone and someone else has filled the position by the time someone approaches me for advice. Perhaps instead of a name to contact, the name of a position and a phone number that would stay constant no matter who held the position would be helpful. Then when people are interested, they do not have to fish around for what to do next. You almost need a checklist for step 1, step 2, step 3 and for the contacts to be made and the forms to be filled out. It would make it much easier for groups to try to acquire a lighthouse. It has always seemed a bit ambiguous in the past, depending on the status of the lighthouse and whom you contact.
Senator Hubley: Do you think there should be some extension for a province that has lighthouses with significant historic value? Should the minister take that into consideration before going ahead, even though there is no operating historical lighthouse society? I do not think that should be a reason for removing all lighthouses. There could be a lack of communication or a misunderstanding of the process, for example, the timelines. It does take time, and for the groups looking into this, it is an important feature.
I feel bad that you might lose some irreplaceable heritage. We may be able to recommend that you be looked at in a different light as opposed to a province that has an active historical lighthouse society.
Ms. Loughery: Publication and just getting the word out would help.
Senator Hubley: Exactly. Ms. Livingstone, do you have any comments on the process?
Ms. Livingstone: Prince Edward Island is small, and most of us know one another in one way or another. I find that calling people on the telephone helps. For example, I might call someone in Annandale or visit the fellow in Malpeque or ask what is happening in Borden or talk to Mayor Basil Stewart about what they intend to do in Summerside. My phone bill is sometimes a bit high, but I have a missionary zeal for this so I go ahead and do it.
In places where the word is not getting out, for example in places like New Brunswick, would it not be an investment by someone to hire a person to find out the status of the lighthouses in New Brunswick and who the people are in the communities? We are doing that on the Island, although it is a smaller place. The distance that people have to travel in New Brunswick is greater than it is on the Island. If you drive for four hours on Prince Edward Island, you are in the water; but it is not like that in the other provinces. It would be a good idea to have paid staff — preferably someone who is interested and involved in lighthouses — to find the key people in lighthouse areas. Sometimes it is a former keeper's family, or someone who simply loves the place, or a visitor who sees more than the local people see. There is an idea that the lighthouses always have been there and always will be there. They might be there, but people might not have access to them if they go into private hands. Having said that, some of the private lighthouses on the Island are very well maintained, but it is not strictly a matter of maintaining them. I really like to see public access at least to the grounds. Not every one is big enough or has an economic spinoff, but they still deserve a chance to continue to be part of the public history of our provinces. That is what I think.
Senator Cochrane: From both of you, I would like to know what the Coast Guard has done to help with the issue of lighthouses.
Ms. Livingstone: On Prince Edward Island, the Coast Guard has been supportive. We have worked well with them and have a good relationship with them. When we took over the lighthouse at West Point, they fixed the tower. They re-plastered and paid for the wallpaper. The beautiful wooden deck replaced the old metal one. They put a window back in and had doors made like the original ones. They were supportive of other lighthouses as well, but I refer to the one at West Point because I have been most closely associated with it. The Coast Guard has been very supportive. Ms. Loughery mentioned the changing staff, which makes it difficult to know whom you should talk to. The new process with clearly delineated steps will eliminate some of the frustration over nine years of trying to do something. The Coast Guard has been helpful on Prince Edward Island.
P.E.I. is small and has easy access to the lighthouses. If one is becoming shabby, the story about it hits the newspaper. Someone then gets in touch with the local politician, who asks, "What is going on with the light?'' Pretty soon, it has a new coat of paint. Sometimes small is beautiful.
Senator Cochrane: The Coast Guard did something after they heard these rumours.
Ms. Livingstone: They likely got a phone call from someone.
Senator Cochrane: Do you think they should have done that before?
Ms. Livingstone: The quick answer would be yes. I would love to see the Coast Guard in a position to do that. However, I understand that their budgets have been cut. Enforcing the Fisheries Act and search and rescue activities are their priorities. I come from a fishing family, and I truly value the role the Coast Guard plays in that respect. I know it is a delicate balance with the dollars. At times the people who want to keep things as they always were historically are at odds with something that has been done with some of the lights. The lighthouses have to be repainted every three or four years, and that is expensive. They do not have the number of maintenance staff or technicians needed to look after the repairs and the painting.
There is a new siding material called Nailite. One of the products looks like cedar shakes. It is some kind of siding, possibly vinyl, but I do not know. It has been used in a few cases. It is guaranteed to last and not need painting or anything for 25 years. One of the chaps in the Coast Guard was telling me about it. He said, "I know the diehard historians will say we should not do this, but is it better to have a lighthouse virtually sink into the ground because no one can afford to look after it, or repair it and cover it with Nailite?'' That question will probably come up a number of times. However, our Coast Guard has been very good.
There is another matter, if I may, on the funding. There are usually federal or provincial funds that can be accessed for various things, including some programs that can help to hire people. At West Point we took out a mortgage because it was that important to us. In 1987, $200,000 was a lot more money than it is today. When we decided to keep up with the demand for rooms and food, we got a federal program — a winter works program for lack of a better term. There was so much money per person hired and that accounted for $100,000. The West Point Development Corporation took out a mortgage for the other $100,000.
Senator Cochrane: Was this corporation made up of local citizens?
Ms. Livingstone: Yes, to improve conditions in the West Point area.
Senator Cochrane: Did you have a manager and an accountant?
Ms. Livingstone: We had to pay the accountants, and, yes, we had managers part time.
At one point, when the restaurant was still there, we were employing 20 to 25 people. The park, which was to be closed, was employing about a dozen. The craft shop has fewer than 20 guild members who produce the crafts, and they hired people in the summer months to work at it. There is a good economic spinoff for these things, and we did pay off the mortgage. Sometimes if you believe in something enough, you must be willing to take that risk. Someone else will not always pay for it. You have to be creative and come up with ways to pay for it — for example, entertainment and sales. We had people who helped us.
While it still belongs to the Coast Guard, I do not believe volunteers would be allowed to paint a lighthouse or anything like that. It is my understanding they would not be able to do so because of liability issues. However, when we opened that up as a craft place, people put their crafts in, loaned furniture, made quilts, painted, varnished and scraped. If you can get your community in, then it is their lighthouse and not someone else's. They feel that connection and that support. If you can get that going, it is a real help.
Senator Cochrane: Did the Coast Guard tell you to do this? Did they give you permission to do this, or did you just do it?
Ms. Livingstone: Sometimes it was a bit of both.
We did ask if we could lease it. We had a community meeting. I had come back from a program, and I have a teaching background, so I had flip charts with what do we have and what do we want and how will we get there. We looked at our community and saw that we had a harbour, a fire department, a lighthouse; we had a number of things, and they were all in poor shape. The next thing was what did we want to do and how would we go about doing these things. The lighthouse was one of the main priorities.
Years later we went to a meeting on community economic development, and they told us about the nine steps to it, and we had done eight of them. We did not even know there were steps to do; we just did it.
Senator Cochrane: Ms. Loughery, did the Coast Guard tell you about steps to take to start with the preservation of lighthouses?
Ms. Loughery: No. Going back to your original question, you need to differentiate between Coast Guard personnel and people working in the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, DFO. I think there is quite a difference. Coast Guard are the members who have gone through the Canadian Coast Guard College in Cape Breton. Many of them have spent years on the ships out at sea. They have a real interest in and love of the lighthouses. DFO is a government position. Many of the people working in DFO that we are dealing with in relation to lighthouses do not have that same passion for the lighthouses that the Coast Guard personnel have.
It is hard to talk about lighthouse preservation in the Maritimes without mentioning Larry Wilson, who was the director of the Coast Guard for a number of years. He brought us all together in 1996, and he had a real passion for lighthouses. The Coast Guard people have always tried to do everything they can within their mandate to help us out.
Senator Cochrane: Would you not say the same for DFO?
Ms. Loughery: No, not necessarily; not with everyone. There are some good people, but it would be more like a business. It is a business.
Senator Cochrane: Let me go back to Prince Edward Island. You have 63 lighthouses.
Ms. Livingstone: Yes, and range lights.
Senator Cochrane: Are 40 of them active aids to navigation?
Ms. Livingstone: Yes. The others have been decommissioned; the light is no longer active.
Senator Cochrane: Who is in charge of those active aids?
Ms. Livingstone: DFO, Coast Guard, whatever.
Senator Cochrane: Are they looking after these aids the way the community would like to have them looked after?
Ms. Livingstone: They are keeping the light shining.
Senator Raine: A light on a stick.
Senator Cochrane: Are they all a light on a stick?
Ms. Livingstone: No, these are our functional buildings. There is a YouTube presentation.
Senator Raine: Here it is.
Ms. Livingstone: Yes. Just a few people have a copy of that. We will make sure you all get a copy of that; it will have all the pictures of them.
They are lighthouses or range lights, and they are keeping them. They are keeping the lights shining. Where the lights are not run by community groups, the community really has nothing to say about how the lights are operated or how they are painted or anything except, as I said, the power of the press and the telephone when people see that something needs to happen.
Senator Raine: Could you tell me the difference between range lights and a lighthouse?
Ms. Livingstone: Generally speaking, a lighthouse is bigger and has probably two main functions, either to welcome or to warn — to welcome you to a harbour to let you know there is a big harbour there, or to warn you of a point or a ledge or something like that.
The lighthouse will probably tell you where the harbour is. When you get there, the range lights are in pairs. Generally speaking, the front one is shorter than the back one. There is always a higher elevation to the back one. They will have a day mark, generally a red stripe on them. You will line up the two day marks, from the front and the back one, like you would the sights on a rifle. Then when you come into a harbour you know you have sufficient depth of water to come safely into that harbour.
Most of the range lights have a fixed light that is shining red or whatever colour it happens to be. Most of the lighthouses have a rotating light, and at night a mariner would know where they are because each lighthouse has its own distinct flash pattern. At West Point they call it six seconds flash and six seconds eclipse. It does not go out. There is a screen that goes around. There is a book called The List of Lights, Buoys and Fog Signals for various parts of the country, and every lighthouse has its own flash pattern that you can see at night. In the day, they have day marks, like this one with the black stripes. Race Rocks out in British Columbia is another one with black stripes. Some have red and different patterns. There are day marks for the daytime and the night ones.
Senator Cochrane: Are there 15 that are privately owned?
Ms. Livingstone: Yes.
Senator Cochrane: Are there any guidelines for the owners to keep these as heritage buildings?
Ms. Livingstone: No.
Senator Cochrane: What have they done with them?
Ms. Livingstone: Some have been made into cottages. Some additions have been made to some of them. In the case of the former Cape Tryon Lighthouse, the great-granddaughter has kept it, and it is magnificent. It is better than it would have been in its heyday. It is beautifully kept.
Senator Cochrane: Is it painted like a lighthouse?
Ms. Livingstone: Yes.
Senator Cochrane: Are they all like that?
Ms. Livingstone: No, they are not all like that. There are various degrees. There is one on which they have put two wings. They have kept the former Summerside front range light, and they have the wings that they live in.
There are three, and they all come from the same harbour. The idea was formerly that if the powers that be, probably Coast Guard, were not going to keep up the lighthouse that was there, then people could not just get that lighthouse and put it somewhere handy. Even if they did get it they wanted them to paint it a different colour so that it would not be confused by mariners for an active light. Three were taken from the southeastern part of Prince Edward Island from Orwell Cove. One was called the Brush Point Range lighthouse, and it was on the wharf. There were two Douse Point Range Lights.
Some people in the community that had connections with them wanted to have them at that point, and they wanted to keep them close to their original locations, and that was not allowed. In the 1970s, the two Douse Point Range Lights were purchased by someone who hauled them across that part of the Island, and now they are in the middle of the town of Murray River. They have not been looked after.
The one that is most on the doomsday list of lights, if there was one, would be the former Brush Point lighthouse, the one that used to be on the end of the wharf. It was hauled to a farmhouse. I do not know the lady, but, from asking around, I understand she lives in the U.S. and is only on the island in the summer. I believe she is elderly.
If any of you are familiar with Manitoba maples, you know how rapidly they grow. They are growing up practically right through that little lighthouse. When I visited there the last time I did not want to get too close in case I would precipitate its collapse, but I put my camera in the window and took pictures of what the inside of it was like, and it turned out quite well. If it is not rescued soon, that little lighthouse will be right into the ground.
Senator Cochrane: When they take it privately, there is no stipulation that they have to keep it in a heritage state?
Ms. Livingstone: No. In the future there may be, but when those were done, the Coast Guard had no further use of them. They were surplus assets, and they were sold.
Senator Cochrane: Are community-based interests in your province reluctant to take over surplus lighthouses because of the costs involved in restoration, do you think?
Ms. Loughery: Absolutely.
Senator Cochrane: That is the main reason?
Ms. Loughery: I would guess that would be the main reason.
May I address something?
Senator Cochrane: Yes, go ahead.
Ms. Loughery: The term "lighthouse'' is a general term. Ms. Livingstone touched on this. There are landfall, coastal, harbour, range, leading and sector lights, and they are all lighthouses. They just function in different capacities. Ms. Livingstone talked about the day marks and whatnot.
When we had the Atlantic Lighthouse Council in the Maritimes, one of the projects we worked on was coming up with a glossary of terms that everyone could use and understand. What we came up with that fit the Maritimes for the definition of a "lighthouse'' was three criteria: It was built by a governing agency, which in Canada would be the Coast Guard; it was an aid to navigation; and it had an enclosed lantern on the top. Some lighthouses have had the lantern removed in years and it is a bare bulb, but it would still be a heritage one because it was built with a lantern. Those were the criteria we had.
When we talk about range or sector lights that work in tandem, I still consider that a lighthouse. When I am talking about seven tours in New Brunswick, that would include two lights in a sets of range lights. "Lighthouse'' is a broad, general term.
Senator Cochrane: You work with the Coast Guard, do you?
Ms. Loughery: No, I do not, but they have a lot of good information. Each base is different. The base in Saint John has done a good job of maintaining its archives and keeping photographs and so on. Because it is closing shortly — a deal was just signed last month to sell it to the City of Saint John — I have been trying to get in. I scanned over 1,500 photographs two winters ago, and I am trying to document that kind of stuff. That has been my focus the last few years in lighthouse preservation, because who knows what will happen to that stuff when the base closes.
Senator Cochrane: Thank you for your work. It has been wonderful.
Senator Raine: Thank you both for being here. It is terrific. I have so many questions that we will have to stay late.
Ms. Livingstone, thank you for the paper with a nice list of concerns. This will be useful. We will see some officials on Thursday, and this will be a nice reference point from which to start questions.
I know that you are involved in the World Lighthouse Society. I imagine you are also aware of the United States Lighthouse Society. In your discussions with other lighthouse people in Canada, has there been talk of forming a Canadian lighthouse society?
Ms. Livingstone: Yes, in around 2000, when we had the Atlantic Lighthouse Council, we had an international conference. We had people from Australia and Paris, the head of the international lighthouse society — IALA, I think it is called.
Ms. Loughery: No, IALA, the International Association of Lighthouse Authorities, is an official body whose members are from the governing agencies. Larry Wilson sat on that. From Canada it would have been a Coast Guard employee sitting on IALA, so it was a little different. IALA was represented at the conference.
Ms. Livingstone: At that point, because there was some funding too, we had people from the United States Lighthouse Society. I have done Island tours with people from the U.S. I take people on tours.
There was talk about it but at that point it is difficult to do everything by volunteer. People have work and family lives and so on. This can become a full-time — and then some — job, with all these contacts that need to be made. However, it is worthwhile.
Ms. Loughery mentioned the glossary. We felt strongly that new groups taking over needed some kind of guideline. A consultant was hired, and he came up with one that was reviewed by a committee of members of the Atlantic Lighthouse Council, including Ms. Loughery, me and some others. That could be made available and could be updated, as would be appropriate this many years later. A person does not have to throw out the baby with the bathwater. There were some good things in it.
There were international meetings. We had people like Cullen Chambers from the Southern U.S. He was a specialist in the maintenance and preservation of historic lenses. There are knowledgeable people out there. I do not know whose duty, job or responsibility it will be to pull this together, but people could unknowingly do a lot of damage, for example, to a historic lens or something. For example, they could get after it with Comet Cleanser or God knows what. We do need to find out more before they all disappear.
I do not want anything to happen to them. What is it they say about surgeons? First, do no harm. That is what I want to ensure with our lighthouses, that people do not unknowingly damage things so that will not happen. I think we need something like updating this guidebook and getting other advice for it and so on.
Senator Raine: I have been thinking that one of the missing links is funding, and all governments these days are strapped for cash. However, from what I have seen with regard to lighthouses, there is a huge passion for people who live in the cities — the lighthouse is iconic and tugs at their hearts.
Do you think it would be worthwhile to put some seed money in to form a lighthouse preservation foundation that could be a pool of money for organizations or lighthouse caretakers to go to for help?
Ms. Loughery: There was one here in Canada, the Atlantic Lighthouse Council. We had a big dinner to launch the Canadian lighthouse foundation. I have no idea what happened to that organization.
The Chair: Do you have more details — when, where?
Ms. Loughery: The Atlantic Lighthouse Council was funded by ACOA, the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency, so it was a three-year project.
Ms. Livingstone: About 2003.
Ms. Loughery: Yes, 2003. I am guessing this was about 2002; it was a big fancy dinner in Halifax to launch this Canadian lighthouse foundation. Then we never heard anything more about it. In fact, I had kind of forgotten all about it.
We had a manager of the Atlantic Lighthouse Council who perhaps over-managed. There were problems with reporting to the board members, and he put that together. We just did not get a lot of information. I do not know what happened. It is almost like questioning whether it was even legitimate. I do not know. However, there was at one time supposedly a Canadian lighthouse foundation.
Senator Raine: Needless to say, it did not raise money.
Ms. Loughery: No, but that was the idea. It was going to have all this big fund of money there to do something.
Senator Poirier: Were there many people at that supper, the big event?
Ms. Loughery: There would have been the board of the Atlantic Lighthouse Council. The gentleman from England who used to work for Chance Brothers was there; he was a guest speaker — Kenneth Sutton Jones, a fascinating man.
Senator Poirier: How many people are we talking about?
Ms. Loughery: About 50.
Senator Poirier: Were funds ever raised by this organization? If yes, do you know who got the funds?
Ms. Loughery: That I do not know. It was a launch. It was to introduce and launch this Canadian lighthouse foundation. It took place at the Maritime Museum of the Atlantic in Halifax.
The Atlantic Lighthouse Council had a three-year mandate, the idea being that it would be set up and functional and sustainable, and it was not.
Senator Raine: I have another question for Ms. Loughery. What I am seeing in Prince Edward Island is impressive. I look forward to looking at your brochure. Another beautiful brochure was produced by the lighthouses in Bruce Peninsula. Looking at your list with the many lighthouses you have in New Brunswick with the asterisks beside them, I see there is a good list of lighthouses that are owned by a community group or other public entity. If there are names and addresses of just that group, maybe the time has come to send them these brochures as an idea of how you can work together. I personally think that working together like that is very important.
Ms. Loughery: I agree with you 100 per cent. That was an idea. This is the culmination of various brochures they have had on Prince Edward Island. They have had brochures as long as I have known Ms. Livingstone, in one form or another. This is a great one.
I have a whole stack of brochures at home from projects I have visited, from societies, for festivals. I have them all broken down, and I took them to a number of these groups when we had the lighthouse society, trying to get that idea across.
A number of them have their own individual brochures. However, as I said earlier, I just could not seem to sell that idea of a unified front for New Brunswick lighthouses.
Senator Raine: Of the lighthouses on your list that have not been taken over by community groups, are there any that jump to your mind that really need to be saved or need attention?
Ms. Loughery: We have discussed Cape Jourimain.
Senator Raine: I am talking about the ones that do not have asterisks beside them. I suspect that for all the ones with asterisks, someone cares about them.
Ms. Loughery: They may care about them, but as in the case of Cape Jourimain, caring about them is not the same as caring for them, taking care of them.
As I mentioned in my presentation, the area of Partridge Island, not just the lighthouse, just screams for development for so many reasons. I am a tour guide in the city of Saint John, and when I tell the people who come about the history of Partridge Island, they are fascinated. It has the first quarantine station in all of North America; it is older than Ellis Island. There is the history of the Irish immigration and immigration from all over, different ethnic groups. There is so much potential there for not just the lighthouse. That is the one project to me that really screams out. That is why I said it is the greatest missed opportunity in the province of New Brunswick.
Ms. Livingstone will probably attest to this, but when you are a lighthouse enthusiast, people will ask what is your favourite lighthouse. I have my favourite lighthouse site, my favourite lighthouse and my lighthouse, which is the one near me, so it depends.
Quaco Head Lighthouse is in St. Martins; it is a concrete square tower built in the late 1960s, early 1970s. As heritage structures go, it is not much, but it is this fabulous location on this bluff. The Bay of Fundy has an incredibly beautiful coast. There is one, and it is all being overgrown by alders.
I used to get wonderful photographs there, and now you are hard pressed to get them because everything is growing up. What a fabulous location that would be for a park or something like that. That is another one I could see as easily being developed even though it is not a heritage lighthouse. There are a number on the list there that do not have any interest in them so far.
Senator Raine: Even though you are not directly involved, I can see you have a passion for it, and New Brunswick is fortunate to have you there in the wings. Good luck in your work there.
Ms. Loughery: Thank you.
The Deputy Chair: I have some quick questions. Ms. Livingstone, do you have comments on DFO's list of surplus lighthouses in your province? Is it accurate? Have you looked at it?
Ms. Livingstone: I looked at part of it and saw something about the West Point back range, which has been gone for years. After that, I did not bother looking anymore. I knew from visiting and going over every corner of the island that regardless of what the list said, this is what we have. I did not waste any time going through the list.
I always believe you look at what is close to home, and if it is accurate, maybe the rest is. If it is not accurate, there are probably some other problems.
The Deputy Chair: Is the Prince Edward Island Lighthouse Society a member of the World Lighthouse Society?
Ms. Livingstone: No, we are not. We are sort of revitalizing. We have been going all along. We had a newsletter and that helped us a lot. We have not had that newsletter since 2008 or so, but we have one currently coming out. The people who were president said when they came on, "This is not our skill set; we will not be doing this.'' I was a bit burned out and I stopped doing it as well. However, if you do not have a way of communicating with people, interest does not stay at its peak. Our newsletter and our membership in the lighthouse society used to be $25 a year; now it is $35. It is for a couple of people. We get the newsletter out to them either online or provide a printed copy.
We used to have about a hundred members, and then our membership dwindled mostly to being just the active lights. With our newsletter and calls and this new interest, we are getting increasing numbers of people. People will give a membership to someone for Christmas or something like that, which is a way of supporting the society and spreading the word.
When we were part of the Atlantic Lighthouse Council, the gentlemen did do more research, and so did Larry Wilson, as Ms. Loughery mentioned. They put us in touch with the broader spectrum of lighthouses. We have tended to keep somewhat in touch with the rest of the country, but we are focusing on doing what we can on the home front.
The Deputy Chair: You made some useful comments, as Senator Raine said, about the questions that came up in your consultations on the Heritage Lighthouse Protection Act, which are useful to us. Did you gather any general impressions about the act? Is it workable? Will it lead to progress?
Ms. Livingstone: On the Island we believe it will. The process is straightforward and relatively simple, and there are people like Norman Shields, with whom we will be able to talk to and ask the questions we have and hopefully get some guidance or give some guidance, whatever the case may be.
The process as laid out eliminates this years and years. The Wood Islands Lighthouse has been struggling for over six years to get ownership of the lighthouse, and it seems to have hit a stone wall. It was discovered that the application was on someone's desk and that person was replaced by someone else. Finally, I think someone probably from that area went a bit political and said, "We have to get to the bottom of this and find out what the holdup is.'' The holdup was that it had been on someone's desk for a long time. After it was discovered, action went along at a good pace.
With this new process and the selection committee and so on, I believe this will be very promising for the future of the lighthouses.
Senator Raine: When is your week-long Prince Edward Island Lighthouse Festival? Tell all our viewers.
Ms. Livingstone: It will be from July 10 to 16. On the island, the tourist season really gets into full swing about the middle of July, so we are having it the week prior to that.
We have nine lighthouses that are open to the public. The North Cape one last year — although they are not open yet, they will be — had functions going on during the day. We are trying to ensure that there will be an incentive for people to go from one lighthouse to the other. I think in our overall planning, we have to do that. Each one perhaps will tell part of the whole Island story, but there will have to be an incentive so people will not think, "I have seen one; I have seen them all.''
There will be events going on. I am not sure how successful we will be, "we'' being some of us on the committee. We are encouraging some of the lighthouses to stay open, to have at least one open in the evening during that week because that is when lighthouses really come into their own. The one at West Point is open every night, and you can always get right up into the lantern there. Places like Wood Islands during the full moon in July and the full moon in August have musical events and food. It is a full moon night. I do not know whether it is full moon madness or what.
If you are on Prince Edward Island during the week of July 10 to 16, we will be lighting the lighthouses up good and bright for that event.
Senator Raine: We should do a committee trip.
Ms. Livingstone: We are looking for special guests as attractions.
Senator Raine: I would go if the Minister of Tourism and Parks from New Brunswick would come with me.
Ms. Livingstone: It might be a good idea so that you can see what a vibrant part of the community the lighthouses are.
Ms. Loughery: If you have never been to the island, you really should go.
Senator Raine: I have been, but I am looking for a good excuse to go back.
Ms. Loughery: The lighthouses are it.
The Deputy Chair: We cannot thank you ladies enough for your enthusiastic and informative presentations. I want to thank Senator Ataullahjan for joining us as well; we did not get a chance to introduce her earlier.
I thought this was a very valuable evening for us. I may have been lax in the chair, but I enjoyed the conversation around the table rather than a formal presentation. To me, that was very appealing.
Thank you very much. I will call this meeting to a close.
(The committee adjourned.)