Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Issue 17 - Evidence, March 9, 2011
OTTAWA, Wednesday, March 9, 2011
The Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade met this day at 4:15 p.m. to study the political and economic developments in Brazil and the implications for Canadian policy and interests in the region, and other related matters.
Senator A. Raynell Andreychuk (Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Chair: Honourable senators, before we proceed to our witness, I should remind you that our general order of reference comes to an end on March 31. With your concurrence, it would be routine that I would move in the chamber to extend it to probably December 31. Is it agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Thank you.
We are continuing our special study on the political and economic developments in Brazil and the implications for Canadian policy and interests in the region and other related matters. This will be our twelfth meeting on this particular study.
Our witness before us today is the Vice-President of Research & International Relations at the University of Western Ontario, Dr. W.E. Hewitt, a sociology professor. Dr. Hewitt is currently managing director of the Canadian Journal of Latin American and Caribbean Studies, and he is one of the leading authorities in Canada on Brazil.
Dr. Hewitt, thank you for coming to share your expertise with us. We usually begin with some opening remarks from you, and then we will move to questions from honourable senators. Welcome, and the floor is yours.
W.E. (Ted) Hewitt, Vice-President (Research & International Relations), University of Western Ontario, as an individual: Thank you, Madam Chair. I am happy to be here this afternoon. I have been following the work of the committee over the last several months. You have been speaking to an impressive list of experts, not only here in Canada but outside the country, particularly in the U.S.
You have my CV or resumé. I am not sure whether that was circulated. However, it will give you some idea of my background and my current role. I would say, and I have been in this business for quite a long time, that I would be one of only a handful, maybe two handfuls, a hand and a half, of experts on Brazil in Canada currently, whom Brazilians tend to refer to as Brazilianists or Brazilianistas. Also, I am fortunate in some respects because as vice- president responsible for research in international relations at the University of Western Ontario, I work at a place that currently has some of the most active collaborative research, graduate exchange, dual degree programs with institutions in Brazil of any in Canada, in a broad range of areas: neuroscience, computer software engineering, alternative energy, dentistry, high-performance computing and so forth.
Personally, I have been travelling to Brazil for nearly four decades. It is a place I know very well. I have spent many years there, and I have spent many years trying to educate Canadians about it. I have had an excellent relationship with successive Brazilian governments, particularly with the diplomatic representatives of Brazil in Canada. I am one of the few Canadians to be decorated by the Brazilian government.
Here in Canada, I have been asked by the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade, DFAIT, to serve on the Brazil-Canada science and technology agreement steering committee. We have yet to meet. I was recently invited to serve as a board member on International Science and Technology Partnerships Canada, and I chair the Brazil subcommittee of that organization. I was very privileged to join the previous Governor General, Madame Jean, on her groundbreaking trip to Brazil in 2007.
I am telling you this not so much simply to convey my credentials but to let you know how few individuals such as myself there really are in Canada, with such a deep appreciation of the country, and also because I want to set the stage for what I think many may see as a rather unconventional perspective on how we move forward in developing a closer relationship with Brazil, which I think everyone acknowledges as one of the world's leading, emerging economies. I read just yesterday that it is now poised to soon become the world's fifth-largest economy.
Within the federal government, and I have worked closely with a number of agencies on this file, there is certainly a will very recently to move closer to Brazil in particular and some of the other BRIC countries — the BRIC countries being Brazil, Russia, India and China. This compares markedly with what I would have experienced in the past, say less than a decade ago, when quite often diplomats and representatives of government would refer to Brazil quite simply as one of 13 countries in South America, despite the preponderance of Brazil on that continent both economically and in terms of population. The real challenge, as I see it, as the will starts to emerge to work more closely with this country, is how to move forward.
My view is that even as within government, and not only the federal government but also the provincial governments, the will to establish stronger relationships with this country has emerged, there still exists a range and a series of misconceptions about how to do this and about Brazil in particular. It goes something like this.
Many people will say that Brazil and Canada have much in common, as former colonies. They have a long history of trade and investment. They are both multicultural societies. People will talk about how Brazil is growing and how the economy is growing and the consumer market is expanding at a rapid pace. They also quickly point out that this means or should mean for Canada that we have a lot to offer Brazil in terms of things we are good at: health care, education, technology.
As a starting point and to get the attention of Brazilians, people will say that Canada and Brazil need to recognize and align common interests and priorities. We hear talk about security and peacekeeping and things we can do together on the global stage. We hear increasingly as well about common research and development interests, particularly with industry, that can drive collaborations, but we also hear, when people talk about that, that these have to be designed in such a way as to serve Canada's advantage and to serve Canada's interest primarily.
That is not so much heresy, but I am trying to relate to you how people convey their feelings or their ambitions regarding this particular relationship. I would suggest, though, and I have pointed this out in successive conferences, seminars and workshops, that really the reality of the Canada-Brazil relationship, or what it can be, is really something other than that. These are things we have to realize if we want to move forward.
First, Canada and Brazil probably have far less in common than one might presume, whether you are talking about culture or language, certainly geopolitical aspirations, and definitely perspectives on multiculturalism. We are two completely different countries. In fact, Brazil has little inherent interest in Canada. Their focus is much more on the United States, on the EU, on its own neighbourhood in Mercosur, on Africa increasingly, and more recently Asia. The fact that we may be now interested in Brazil does not mean that they will naturally reciprocate. This is a common misconception.
The other piece we hear often is that Canada has a lot to offer or sell or share with Brazil. That may be true, but, the fact is, so do many other countries, and they are already there working hard to start to solidify these links.
Finally, with respect to research and development, we do share similarities. This particular avenue of collaboration does hold promise, especially as directed to industry and in pursuit of what we might call third markets. However, in this process, Canada brings very little to the table, and what we have brought to the table financially in terms of commitment and in terms of recognizing Brazil's aspirations has not created much of a wave in Brazil. The Brazilians simply are less impressed than we might presume. In fact, one could argue it is quite the opposite if you add in all of those irritants and issues that plagued the relationship particularly during the last years of last century and the beginning of this.
There are bright spots for relationship building if we are willing to recognize them and to work on them. One of them is in my own area of academic partnerships. These are already under way at my university and at a number of universities across Canada. However, there is still a huge imbalance in what the respective partners are willing to bring to the table in terms of support for these initiatives. Our science and technology agreement, I believe, totalled $3 million in support of Canada-Brazil R & D collaboration with universities and industry, $1.5 million from each side, which was a small fraction of what was offered up for the Canada-India or the Canada-China agreements.
There are also significant implications for student exchange, joint training and degrees, collaborations with industry in both countries, internships, building the culture of collaboration and expanding economic opportunities. I see a world of programming and opportunities that could be expanded were we to put our minds to developing these in conjunction with the Brazilians, and they do have money and they do have interest in doing this.
In terms of investment, and this is a major point, Canadian investment in Brazil is currently at about $11 billion. It has been strong. It is not generally recognized in Brazil. It is not generally recognized in Canada, even given, and I hope this number is right as I saw this recently, that Canadian investment in Brazil is twice the level of investment in India and China combined. Most Canadians would not believe that, and they would not be led to believe that, certainly by media reports regarding Canadian investment.
On the other side of the coin, it is the same story. Brazilian investment in Canada has grown in this decade by 20 times, from about $700 million to over $15 billion, and it is my understanding that Vale Inco will invest another $10 billion in its Sudbury operation. This is unprecedented. I tell this story many times. I travelled today to Ottawa in an Embraer 190 jet. We taxied down a runway that was probably poured with concrete from a company called St. Marys Cement, which is owned by a Brazilian company called Votorantim. I drink Brahma beer at my local bar, using Canadian cash that was made with nickel from a Brazilian company. In my own city, in London, many of these companies operate in a manner that is completely unknown or recognized even by our economic development organizations or by those who would go out and solicit additional development.
To conclude, we need to begin the conversation to align politically with the Brazilian reality and to talk less about commonalities with Brazil and more about recognizing Brazil's aspirations for its regional and global leadership. As I understand, this may be anathema to many Canadian leaders and to Canada's diplomatic aspirations, but it is a reality, and it is one that has been used effectively by other countries. We need to look more for win-wins and less for areas where Canada can have the advantage purely in the bilateral context. We focus, as the Brazilians say, on terceiros, third-party opportunities. We develop an innovation agenda together in areas such as biofuels, nano-science and biotech; and work together with Brazilians to conquer third markets or to take better advantage of our own markets.
Along with this is a focus on people-to-people collaborations in support of knowledge generation and talent mobility. You probably know that Canada is already the favoured destination of Brazilian students for English language training with about 17,000 students arriving in Canada each year to study English; and then they go home. What are we doing to bring them back to attend our universities, to train and to interact with Canadians? What are we doing seriously to send Canadian students to Brazil? This is an ideal opportunity for low-cost programming that helps us to learn about each other. It breeds closer business ties as students upon graduation are hired in their own country and even in Brazil, and it breeds collaboration in R & D, which can become the basis for very effective scientific and industrial collaborations.
I will stop there because I am anxious to hear questions from the committee to engage further in this discussion.
[Translation]
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: Dr. Hewitt, I must congratulate you on having been decorated for your work in science and technology in Brazil. It is a great honour for you, and it reflects on all Canadians.
Brazil fascinates me, and I see an excellent opportunity. But I think that we must keep things in perspective. The first danger is to proclaim the benefits of an exceptional growth and to minimize the imbalance that is starting to appear. There is inflation, a budgetary deficit, the current account deficit, nothing of too much immediate concern, but if we don't pay attention to it right now the constant deterioration of the indicators will spoil the fun. Currently, this slow erosion doesn't affect the performance of the economy in general, still pulled by a strong demand for Brazil's raw materials. The Brazilian economy is not immune to a blowback. China's growth, according to the Economist Intelligence Unit, will be reduced to half by about 2020. According to predictions, India should also decline slightly.
Can you tell us, since you are an expert, if Brazil is doing something to reduce its dependency on raw materials?
[English]
Mr. Hewitt: I might be an expert in some things, but not all things. I would have to qualify your question or at least ask another question with respect to what you mean by "dependence on raw materials." Commodities make up a good portion of the trade balance between Brazil and Canada. However, historically Brazil has tended to export finished goods to Canada and Canada to export raw materials to Brazil. That is why I was flying in that Embraer 190 this morning and why the industrial presence is so prevalent in Canada, once the investment dollars have started to flow.
Brazil is a highly industrialized country. For many years it has produced many of the manufactured goods that it uses. The automobile sector was one of the first to develop in this regard. The number of automobiles produced per year has grown increasingly, and now virtually all global manufacturers are in Brazil. They see their potential for future growth in global trade — yes, global trade in commodities, but also increasingly in manufactured goods and ultimately in the high-technology sector. That is why they are investing money in high technology, fuel technologies and biotech, including life sciences.
I do not see a dependence on the raw materials sector. I see a maturing economy that will become increasingly dependent on its consumption and export of manufactured and high-technology goods, in my opinion.
[Translation]
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: You said in your presentation that both our countries have less in common than we would think. Do you think that Brazil and Canada still have some commonality of regional and global interests that could be the foundation of increased cooperation and tighter relationships?
[English]
Mr. Hewitt: Yes. This common question has been the subject of much discussion. The Brazilians have long had an interest in security, in particular regional security. Certainly from the perspective of the terrorist threat, Brazil would be considered and would consider itself less at risk potentially than Canada. As a global player, Brazil has an interest in security, as does Canada in various regions of the world for Canada's interest. I definitely think that is an area to align.
I do not think that alone will create anything resembling a strong and vibrant relationship that will lead to the kind of academic, intellectual, business and cultural interchange that we, or some of us, would like to see between our two countries.
Senator Segal: I want to welcome our witness and express my appreciation to him for taking the time to be of assistance to us.
I will try a devil's advocate construct. It is in the nature of Canada to look for constructive, warm, friendly, peaceful relations with almost everyone, which may speak to some of the intrinsic naïveté of our approach to the world, on occasion. I accept much of your advice unquestioningly that the common areas for cooperation with our Brazilian friends might not be as clear and compelling as some would like to suggest. I set aside academic, research and other exchanges and having more of their students here and more of our students there. All of that is always good.
I put this to you so that you can tear it apart if it is in some way ill-founded in substance: We are natural competitors; we have a series of areas of market engagement where it is not in our interest for them to succeed unduly. Do we want to see them continue to reduce the level of poverty, with which they have had great success — better than we have had? Absolutely. Do they have a bigger poverty problem to begin with than we have? Absolutely. Can we learn much from the Bolsa Família program and other things they have done? Without question, it would be a huge improvement for us to learn from their best practices on the ground. However, it might well be that in the areas of technology, manufacturing and mining, the marketplace will drive the relationship. Canadians are in Brazil for reasons that relate to solid business investments because of mineral and other wealth in that circumstance. Brazilians are in Canada either because there is a solid aeronautics market or the companies they own have a big chunk of our resource capacity and they are expanding their return on investment, which is a good thing. Perhaps government trying to force the relationship would be counterproductive.
Many people say that if you look at industrial policy across all the great economies, not just Canada's, it tends to be financing losers in ministers' ridings, historically. Maybe some governments do it better than others. Overall, we might be best to stand back and make a case for the issue of your focus, research, student exchanges, et cetera, where we should invest more. However, in terms of the actual market proposition and an integrated approach to foreign policy and international security, their government is more centre-left, and probably more so than any government we could elect in Canada. That does not mean they have not been fiscally responsible because they have been prudent, to their credit. However, they will have a view of Venezuela that is different than ours. They will have a view on the Middle East that is different from ours. It may be that wasting a lot of time trying to bridge that is not a good use of their government`s time or our government's time.
When they send forces, as they did, to take a major role in Haiti, as they have, that speaks to their commitment to the hemisphere. Where we can cooperate with them, that makes sense, but we should not be pushing rope up a hill. As I understand the purport of your testimony, we should pick our spots and not get seduced into the notion that the global relationship can have a Pollyanna economic return, because, actually, there is no evidence to substantiate that proposition. If I am overstating your position, feel free to clip my wings.
Mr. Hewitt: I agree with you, completely. I am a pragmatic person. Of course, Brazil and Canada are competitors. We have heard about the bitter rivalry between Embraer and Bombardier. The fact is that Embraer sells quite a few planes in Canada now, and Bombardier, as I understand, is not only selling planes but will be producing the $600-million extension to the São Paulo subway. This is all good. This is wonderful, in fact. This should really drive the relationship, and it should be allowed to drive the relationship, finding new ways to work together and to help these companies grow and survive and prosper, not just in each other's backyard but, as my Brazilian friends will say, in other people's backyards.
Would it be unthinkable for Bombardier to collaborate with Embraer to produce a jet that would be sold in a third market? Yes, probably. However, there are many small companies in both countries that could collaborate based on good science that has been done in one or the other or both, and technology, to do just that. That is what we should encourage.
One of the points I made around the awareness issue is that there is a large level of investment in each other's country. In Canada, and I want to choose my words carefully here, not only do we not recognize it and chase it, which is interesting, but sometimes we actually criticize and disparage it. In the case of the investments that were made by Vale in Inco, and for all the good reasons that we know, this company might have been subject to some criticism from some quarters, but it still is a huge investment that provides thousands of jobs in Canada. What the Brazilians hear is, "Well, gee, we are investing in your country, but we do not hear many good things about that. In fact, we hear a lot of bad things about the actions of large Brazilian multinationals that may be exploitative and so forth."
In the media generally in Canada, stories about Brazil tend to be negative, for whatever reason. Those poor kids were dumped in the sea off the Brazilian coast, and it took 40 hours, but they were picked up by Brazilian ships. It took them 40 hours to get there, but the Brazilians were there. They arrived, and those kids were saved. The entire media story was about how they had to wait. Yes, it was a terrible, long, anguishing wait on the sea.
Another example we had was of a meeting that was held at the summit in Toronto. There were two photographs taken of President Obama and the Brazilian, Indian and Chinese presidents, as I recall. In the Canadian newspapers, the picture was cropped to show only President Obama and Prime Minister Harper and the Indian and Chinese presidents, but right beside President Obama was the President of Brazil, and that picture in Brazil showed the President of Brazil. It is a small thing, but it is the kind of thing that they notice. They wonder, "Canada is a great place with many opportunities. It is a place we want to be, but we are not really getting the impression that this is a place that seriously wants to talk about how we can work together and compete, yes, but also how we can collaborate and build our economies to the benefit of our respective peoples."
That is the point I wanted to make today with respect to how the media tends to portray our relationship, which tends to be not at all, and how it tends to portray Brazil, which more often than not tends to be negative.
Senator Segal: I will ask you to put your hat on not only as an expert on Brazil but also as a leading administrator of one of the country's more compelling academic institutions. It is not the University of Guelph, Queen's, or the University of Ottawa, but it is a significant institution nonetheless. I had to say that because the Chancellor of Guelph is sitting at the table.
Mr. Hewitt: Yes, of course.
Senator Segal: I had no choice. We have the Fulbright foundation, which seeks to facilitate students going back and forth at the graduate level between the United States and Canada. We have the Commonwealth Foundation, which operates a student scholarship foundation that is not as active but has facilitated the exchange of students at the graduate level. Should we have a foundation for Brazil? Is that an instrument we should try to design between Brazil and Canada to increase student movement? In your judgment, if Canada were to make that kind of proposal with some lead matching funding on our end and some Canadian corporations who said they would be glad to participate, do you think there would be receptivity on the Brazilian side, just based on your own sense of how that world operates, assuming that everyone goes to the table with a 50-50 bias?
Mr. Hewitt: I have been involved in the negotiation of just such opportunities recently. I was in Brazil in November with colleagues from the University of Toronto, largely in response to the failure to date of other than a small number of Canadian research and funding agencies to successfully negotiate these types of agreements with their Brazilian counterparts. I am speaking particularly of the Tri-Council, which have tried to negotiate agreements with the Brazilian counterparts of the Tri-Council — Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council, Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council, and the Canadian Institutes of Health Research. They wanted to set up collaborative research programming and student mobility programming. To date, they have not been able to do this — not for lack of goodwill or good effort. The Brazilians have become somewhat frustrated by this, notwithstanding the best efforts of folks from these agencies. I had decided that I would approach the Ontario government to ask them to allow me to negotiate an agreement with the Brazilian agency that funds graduate student mobility and graduate student education in Brazil. The Ontario government agreed. I have negotiated that agreement with a small fund that will move graduate students primarily initially between Ontario universities and universities in Brazil, both ways, on projects.
As I finished that, it was recently announced that DFAIT had also concluded an agreement with the same agency for a national program. However, combined, that program counts on a Canadian commitment between Ontario and the federal government of no more than $250,000.
Senator Segal: Per annum?
Mr. Hewitt: Until the money runs out.
Senator Segal: So it is capped.
Mr. Hewitt: This is not a lot when we are talking about the potential for a program like this. The Ontario program received something in the order of a $50,000 commitment from the Ontario government, and the Brazilians are putting in 50. It is small, but I thought we should get something on the table and move forward. These are good, and they are positive.
To conclude the story, I travelled to Brazil and met with the leaders of a research funding agency in the state of São Paulo. They manage a $400-million fund. It is 1 per cent of the state's budget. The state of São Paulo has a population just slightly less than Canada. If it were a country, it would be the sixth most important jurisdiction in the world scientifically in terms of its production from research from its universities and institutes. The first meeting we went to, we went as the University of Toronto and the University of Western Ontario, and we said, "Would you negotiate an agreement with the two universities and your agency to fund joint research?" They said, "Absolutely. We have tried to negotiate with agencies in Canada. It is taking some time. We will form an agreement with you two universities." They said, "Where would you like to start? We will sign this today. We would like to commit $1 million." I said, "We are the University of Western Ontario and the University of Toronto. Let us start with $100,000. We will each put in $50,000. If you can match the $100,000, away we will go." We will sign this in two weeks in Brazil. It will be open only to the Brazilian researchers in the state of São Paulo and to the University of Toronto and the University of Western Ontario.
Other than International Science and Technology Partnerships Canada, whose board I now sit on as chair of the Brazil subcommittee, this will be the second interuniversity, research-funding program. The point I am trying to make is that we are not making great headway in developing these types of programs we are talking about, and the Brazilians have far more to put on the table than we do.
Senator Segal: If the private sector came to contribute to that, would that be acceptable?
Mr. Hewitt: Yes. I met with Arvind Gupta, CEO and Scientific Director of MITACS, which funds graduate and undergraduate student exchanges with India and internships with industry. We are talking about having them move into the Brazilian educational market in order to attract students to come to Canada to study at Canadian universities and work as interns at Canadian companies. However, we want students to go the other way, too. It is starting, but it is small.
Senator Finley: Thank you for taking the time to visit and for making such an interesting presentation on what is quite a spectacular country.
You talked about flying up here in an Embraer 190. Have you flown on a Bombardier product in Brazil?
Mr. Hewitt: No, not yet.
Senator Finley: The subway is all very well and good. At $600 million it is basically a one-time shot, whereas airplanes are replaced on a retaining basis. Air Canada has 60 Embraer 190s in its fleet. Bombardier has been unsuccessful in breaking into the Latin American market, of which Brazil is a major component.
Could you tell me about the state of the Brazilian pharmaceutical industry? Is it growing? I imagine it is fairly large, given the size of the population and the associated poverty and living conditions. How big is the pharmaceutical industry?
Mr. Hewitt: I cannot speak from an expert's perspective. I will come back to that in a minute after I respond to your earlier comment. I have not flown on a Bombardier product in Brazil. If that is because of government policies or other restrictions in the way of those sales, then that is wrong. Clearly, this is a Brazilian issue that needs to be resolved. Those sales should be based on the quality of the product and pricing. That is the way it should be; and I would never suggest anything else.
With respect to pharmaceuticals, I do not have data to provide. You might remember that when Brazil was combatting a potentially large and significant HIV/AIDS epidemic, it moved to abrogate or set aside international restrictions on the production of generics to meet the market for its own reasons. In hindsight, that was seen as one of the main things that prevented a major outbreak of HIV/AIDS in Brazil.
My understanding is that many of the major global players are in Brazil, but the generic industry is very strong in part as a result of that policy. Beyond that, I cannot say.
Senator Finley: I am going down this line of questioning because in Quebec, for example, two of the major industries are aerospace and pharmaceuticals. The value added for one man-hour of productivity in both pharmaceuticals and aerospace is among the highest, at $90 to $150. For example, when you are building an automobile, one hour of work adds about $6 worth of value, which is about the price of a hamburger. This is the kind of business that one would hope Canada would find in marketplaces like China, India and even Russia quite openly. In fact, there is a considerable movement toward Bombardier in some of these places.
Do you think it would be healthy if the return for Canada for student research and exchange programs were basically to help to prevent competition for two of our highest value-added products, aerospace and pharmaceuticals, in particular in such a concentrated area as Brazil? Is that a sound strategy?
Mr. Hewitt: Yes; and I will say why. You never know where the competition will come from in these two sectors as far as Canada is concerned. If we think we can generate all the know-how, all the talent and all the knowledge in Canada to remain in a competitive position that will keep us where we are forever, we are misguided.
Senator Finley: I was not suggesting that. I am looking at it as a businessman as opposed to a politician. We all have a certain number of assets or resources available to us, whether in Quebec, elsewhere in Canada, ABC corporation or a political campaign. We go fishing where the fish are. If you were being extraordinarily pragmatic about this, how would you rank opportunities with Brazil against those with China, Russia and India?
Mr. Hewitt: Could we narrow those opportunities? Are we talking about investment opportunities and the expected return?
Senator Finley: I refer to the trade opportunities, which is the subject of the committee's study, whether that trade is in the form of investment, productive research and development, manufacturing exchange, commodity exchange or other. I am trying to gain some perspective for potential investors on which fishing hole would net the greatest return.
Mr. Hewitt: Setting aside government restrictions, such as the Brazil costs that you have heard about and practices that we might not agree with respect to protectionism or financing exports, Brazil and Canada probably would share the most in common in terms of business practices or business friendliness. From my experience and from what I have heard from those people who do business there, it is easier to do business in a place that you understand intuitively, that, although it is culturally different in many respects, looks, feels and consumes much like we do than it might be to do business in a country like China or India, where there remain significant linguistic and other associated barriers.
That is my view; and others will disagree. At the end of the day, I do not know whether you would want to be rank ordering or simply appreciating that to ignore what might become one of the top five economies in the world would be at your peril. If Canada does not go there, someone else will get there ahead of us. While we continue to discuss it, they are arriving. I can barely book a ticket to Brazil now because the planes are so full.
Senator Finley: At the last meeting we talked about the fact that Air Canada has one flight per day. What is the tipping point for a second flight each day, perhaps from Montreal to Rio de Janeiro or São Paulo? I understand that no Brazilian airline flies to Canada.
Mr. Hewitt: There used to be two Brazilian airlines flying to Canada: Varig Airlines in the 1980s, and TAM had some flights, but it stopped that route. Now you can connect on TAM to Brazil through Orlando, Florida, or through other U.S. cities.
Senator Finley: I am not trying to discourage Brazil. I am trying to understand better. When we write our report, we have to consider what we suggested in other reports. At some point in time, someone somewhere will have to formulate whether we will put resources here or there, or will we put less into a broader range of resources, or whatever it may be. We have to be pragmatic also about the competitive aspects, very specifically in terms of high value-added output production.
I want to cover one more point, if I may. It is a subject that everyone else brought up but you did not mention. I apologize for missing the first several minutes of your presentation. It is the subject of visas. People who have spoken before you from that chair have almost universally suggested that our visa processing system is positively archaic in comparison with people we might be competing with, such as the Americans, for example. Would you like to comment on that? Is that a significant issue, as far as you can determine?
Mr. Hewitt: Definitely it is. In the Canadian-Brazilian case, for many years, for much of our history, there was no visa requirement. I travelled to Brazil up until probably the late 1970s or early 1980s without a visa. It was very easy. Now typically I will pay something in the order of $90. The only reason I have to do that is because Canada imposed a visa restriction on Brazilians to, as I recall, stem a flow of illegal Brazilian immigrants and refugee claimants. That typically happens, but it is a serious impediment. I wish that the government would review this, especially given that employment levels in Brazil and quality of life and certainly income levels are increasing, because that would have a positive effect.
What the Brazilians are doing to mitigate for their part is giving longer terms for visas. I have a five-year visa, so I can travel back and forth as I wish. For their part, they have always maintained that this is absolutely a reciprocation and that they would be more than willing to remove that. I think it would be interesting.
Can I add something to your earlier comment on the high-tech sector, pharmaceuticals and Bombardier? You will see a lot of BlackBerry devices in Brazil. BlackBerry just announced a huge investment. They are building a plant there. In Brazil, in comparison to India and China, folks tend to be very technologically savvy, and they are early adopters. If you look at all the data on Facebook and Twitter and so on, the numbers who sign up in Brazil are huge. They rank in the top five, no matter what you look at.
We cannot look at these markets holistically. We have to decide where we want to have advantage and where we want to go and what we want to get into their hands. That was a tremendous example of how we could certainly take better advantage of access to that market in another high-tech sector, high-tech aircraft aside, and that has always been a big bone of contention, I admit.
[Translation]
Senator Nolin: Dr. Hewitt, what a pleasure to welcome you as a witness. I was intrigued by your answer concerning the media. I would like to review it briefly with you. Did you see how the Brazilian media treat what happens in Canada?
[English]
Mr. Hewitt: I am not saying that one side is better than the other. I would say the Brazilian media would tend to ignore Canada. As a general rule, Canadian news is not frequently to be found in Brazilian newspapers or in Brazilian media. I would not say it is negative. It has been negative in the past, particularly during periods where sensitivities were particularly heightened, that is, during the Bombardier-Embraer dispute and the tainted beef dispute, but I would characterize Brazilian coverage of Canadian news as being sparse.
[Translation]
Senator Nolin: Considering all the efforts invested by successive Canadian governments to build their foreign trade relations, do you think that the governments or the current government should attend to what I would call educating the media?
[English]
Mr. Hewitt: That is part of it. It is sending a signal, despite what you invest and what you may do otherwise and what high level diplomacy you may engage in. To simply signify that this is an important relationship, that there are significant opportunities to be had through this relationship, to recognize that yes we are competitors in a number of sectors but also that we have much that we can do together would go some distance towards signalling that maybe there is more to explore here, and maybe the relationship can be based on something more than what occasionally appears as negative and more sensational reporting than we would normally see.
I can give you another example, if you would like, of the report that was done recently in one of Canada's major newspapers, with a picture of Carnival, and the caption said something about just how unready the Brazilians will be for the Olympics. I am sorry, but why is that the caption? This is pervasive. Having said that, in Brazil, you would not see anything about Winter Carnival in Quebec City. It would not appear.
[Translation]
Senator Nolin: Governments are mostly made up of politicians, and the relationships between politicians and media are sometimes strained. Don't you fear that the media will be dubious if the government uses an educational approach towards them?
[English]
Mr. Hewitt: I take your point, and I think it is more about sending a signal, as successive governments have, about the importance of particular markets. That may involve trade missions or high-level visits or consultations or announcements of collaborative efforts as opposed to a more proactive, educational approach, which I agree probably would have no net effect, or could actually be negative.
Senator Mahovlich: Thirty or forty years ago, our expertise in Canada was mining, and we had a number of mines down in Brazil. Did we leave a good reputation down there in our mining?
Mr. Hewitt: I can respond to this only by my own evidence from having travelled in many of the areas in Brazil that are heavily mined, even currently.
Senator Mahovlich: Are we still down there? What about Brascan?
Mr. Hewitt: I believe so. I cannot give you data on who is there and what we are doing, but occasionally I will read media reports about Canadian mining companies in Brazil. For many years, Alcan was a major player in Brazil. I can tell you, having visited many cities and towns where Alcan operated, and having talked to executives and people who had employment with Alcan, I do not remember anyone making a disparaging remark about Canadian investment. In fact, Canadian investment is often seen with some pride in Brazil.
You mentioned Brascan, and I have had a long association with Brascan, which is now Brookfield. Brazilians will tell you, if they know anything about Canada, that the Canadians built the power grid in Rio and São Paulo through a company called the Brazilian Traction, Light and Power Company, which later became known as Light. The utilities were later sold to the state utility companies in both Rio and São Paulo, but it is Canadians who developed an innovative technology to actually reverse the flow of one of the major rivers in São Paulo and generate electricity, which was then distributed throughout the city and the region. The Brazilians are aware of that.
Brascan's interests over the years have changed, and you would be better to bring a witness from Brascan or individuals whom I would know who may want to talk about the history of this. Professor Orde Morton might be one. He worked for Brascan for many years and is now retired. He will tell you how the business has changed subsequently. Now, as I understand it, their primary interests in Brazil are real estate and shopping malls, and I think some small- scale hydro generation. Brascan has always had a good name by my account. Many people are able to recount the role Canada played in Brazil at the start of the 20th century.
Senator Mahovlich: I am from Toronto. You mentioned that Brazilians do not care about selling Brazil to Canadians. However, once a year Toronto used to have a Brazilian ball. Did you ever attend?
Mr. Hewitt: Yes.
Senator Mahovlich: In my view, they were trying to sell Brazil to us.
Mr. Hewitt: They are doing that now. The ball was a charity function organized by a Brazilian expatriate. A second ball was held for many years at the Harbour Castle. There are trade shows, events, film festivals, and soon there will be a trade event to market Brazilian wines. They will take on Argentina and Chile. Certainly, they market their country to us, but I cannot speak to what we do in Brazil. I should say there is a very active Brazil-Canada Chamber of Commerce in both Toronto and São Paulo.
Senator Mahovlich: Does Toronto have a large population of Brazilians?
Mr. Hewitt: I understand that there are about 15,000 Brazilians within a much larger Portuguese community of probably over 100,000.
Senator Mahovlich: We have students coming to Canada from Brazil, India and China. There are about 10,000 from India. Many from India and China stay here after graduation, as many as 25 per cent. You said that Brazilian students return to Brazil.
Mr. Hewitt: Students come to Canada primarily to learn English, and Canada has become the premier destination to learn English.
Senator Mahovlich: They learn English, and that is it.
Mr. Hewitt: Typically they come as high school students or at the end of high school. My issue was this: If they are here, why are we not recruiting them to attend Canadian universities? We could recruit some top talent from Brazil. They will be looking to recruit our people. We are in a global marketplace, and people work where they need to work; they go where they need to go. We have to be smart about this and look globally to recruit top talent at the graduate level if we want folks to stay in Canada and help to build our companies.
Yes, we could do more, to which Senator Segal alluded, to get some of these top students here and recruit them to stay.
Senator Mahovlich: Can they skate?
Mr. Hewitt: I know some Brazilians who play road hockey, but they are few in numbers. The question is can they play soccer.
Senator Downe: You mentioned that there are 15,000 Canadians of Brazilian descent in Toronto. Do you know the figures for Canada? We have a large population of Canadians of Chinese descent, which has been the largest visible minority for at least a decade. A great number of people have moved from India to Canada. Do you know the numbers?
Mr. Hewitt: Are you asking about the whole country? I will say, rule of thumb, that if Toronto accounted for the bulk of immigrants, which it probably does, in particular from that part of the world, there might be 20,000; but that is a rough guess. I am aware of no significant communities outside Toronto, and I would be aware. There are some in Montreal, but I do not think there are many in Vancouver. In my city, London, Ontario, it is not uncommon to hear Portuguese spoken in the supermarket because they come with the management teams to work at St. Marys Cement. I did not mention Labatt, which they own, as part of the larger Belgian consortium. It is common to hear Portuguese.
Senator Downe: I assume there is a Portuguese community that would have come from Portugal and one from Brazil. They consider themselves distinct, I would assume.
Mr. Hewitt: Yes. They are like cousins.
Senator Downe: They have the same language in different countries.
Mr. Hewitt: Yes.
Senator Downe: I will talk about the media. What events take place that generate positive coverage for Canada in Brazil? You mentioned you were on the former Governor General's trip.
Mr. Hewitt: Yes.
Senator Downe: What coverage did that generate in Brazil for Canada?
Mr. Hewitt: Interestingly, it generated quite a bit of coverage for a very good reason: The delegation had been positioned as a cultural delegation primarily. Many of the Canadians who went had very little or no background on Brazil, and many of them were younger people. They interacted very effectively with their Brazilian counterparts. The former Governor General is a very open person. When we went to the city of Salvador, we went to see Olodum, which is a percussion group made famous by Paul Simon. They take kids from the street and teach them to play instruments. We went to a party that night and, to the dismay of the RCMP, the Governor General jumped right into the crowd. It was fun watching them all sweat, but she was having an amazing time. The media picked up on the fact that these Canadians seemed to be really engaged and enjoying Brazilian culture. We had meetings about film, modern art and classic art, and this seemed to resonate. Wherever we went, there was fairly good media coverage.
Senator Downe: I share the concerns expressed by others at this and previous meetings about the lack of common interest we might have. We do not share the same culture or the same language. We have a very small population from that country living in our country. The government has limited resources for trade arrangements. The question really is where should we focus. You made the point about how important Brazil is today and will be in the future. In your opening comments, I believe you said that it is the fifth-largest economy in the world.
I will return to the theme of competition. Given the rise in the global economy, the G8 cannot survive in its current structure because Brazil is not a member. Brazil might look to take some of the space that Canada occupies at the diplomatic and international military levels. We witnessed their great assistance in Haiti. In the area of trade, they will look at the markets we have in other countries.
Mr. Hewitt: That is true.
Senator Downe: I want to clarify your advice. I do not want to put words in your mouth, but I believe you said that in certain areas we should move forward full bore but pick our spots because it will be impossible to cover the country as we cover other countries, like India or China. We will not have the range of menu opportunities that we have in those other countries.
Mr. Hewitt: Yes. The question might be not what country you focus on but what market or niche you focus on in all of those countries. Maybe that is the more salient question. If we do not think that China and India will be competitors with us, if they are not already, then we are fooling ourselves. This is the point: Can we get into these countries early enough to forge alliances, despite our competitive position, in key strategic sectors and then go after other markets together? I hear this expressed repeatedly by Brazilians: If you want to entreat us and engage us, then compete with us and we will see how it goes; or maybe we could work together and go after someone else. It is a compelling argument. If we wait, they will come after us.
Senator Downe: You are an expert on Brazil. Do you know how other countries in South America view the rise of Brazil? Do they perceive a threat? Do they want to get closer to Brazil? Do they want to look for other friends? Will Canada have more opportunities with Chile and Argentina because they would rather strengthen the ties with other countries than work with Brazil?
Mr. Hewitt: I do not think there is any question that Brazil holds a place in South America that would have some parallels with the role of the United States in North America, certainly through the hemisphere. After the United States, in terms of who has an eye on whom, Brazil will be pretty high on the list if you are south of the Rio Grande in Mexico. On the other hand, Brazil holds huge opportunities for Chile and Argentina. This is part of the reason that South American countries look to Mercosur, although Chile might not be a full member, as an opportunity to get into the largest consumer market in the region. Brazil looks at it the same way, except moving out. Now there are five or six or seven countries that it can certainly sell to and align with.
Brazil also plays a role in the region as honest broker. We have seen this in disputes. That is generally appreciated. I certainly do not think there is any level of distrust, dislike or animus within the region between the countries.
I read some of the discussion in some of the transcripts. Should Canada look to get involved with or join Mercosur? I personally believe that, in terms of the multilateral organizations that may offer some advantage, we should be looking to develop very strong bilateral ones. The fact is that if you are in Brazil, you are in Mercosur, the same way as if you want to sell into the U.S., you come to Canada. That is how they would position it, and so would the other countries. Personally, I am much more a bilateralist, if that is a word, than a multilateralist.
Senator Downe: I wanted to ask about something that was touched on earlier, and that is the airline industry and how it has grown in Brazil. Given the neighbourhood it lives in, Brazil must be looking at expanding its military over the next 20 or 25 years. Do you have any indication?
Mr. Hewitt: I do not get a sense of that. Geopolitically, Brazil is concerned about borders the same way we fret a bit over Arctic sovereignty, and then there is the whole issue of security in the drug trade, which factors into that. The Brazilians are worried about the frontier regions. However, I have not heard that. They will continue to maintain the military and equip it and to build much of that equipment domestically if they can, or in collaboration with other countries. Aermacchi in Italy collaborated with Embraer to produce military trainer aircraft. Why could we not do that? We did not, for many good reasons.
Senator Downe: One of the earlier witnesses mentioned a deal with France for X number of military aircraft, but a lot of technology was transferred. The suspicion was that this might be a future military expansion. You have not heard that?
Mr. Hewitt: I do not believe that. Brazil has operated nuclear plants for years, and no one has ever expressed the view, at least in the last two decades, that this was somehow a threat to anyone.
The Chair: I do not think it was the expansion of the military but the expansion of their military capability in selling to the region.
Mr. Hewitt: Possibly, yes.
The Chair: They wanted the technology so they could be the first supplier in the region.
Mr. Hewitt: That would make sense, actually, but I cannot say whether that is actually the case.
The Chair: On the issue of whether we should be thinking of Brazil and whether they are competitors or opportunities, I had the privilege of flying the Bombardier planes in Uruguay. The new-generation equipment that Bombardier has surprised me, and I would be delighted if we could have the same aircraft here in Canada from Bombardier. The new-generation jets are used in Uruguay. Bombardier competed and won, and Uruguay is right next door to Brazil, part of Mercosur. Of course, Bombardier is doing the subways.
Should we have a totally new strategy? I was wondering whether that is what you were hinting about when you talked about doing business, that we should not worry about whether they are competitors but rather look to new ways politically to work in Brazil and new ways to work with Brazil. We heard a bit that Bombardier may be working with Embraer in selling into other markets. Are we retracing old steps, and should we be looking into new ways of doing business in the world? Is that what you are hinting at?
Mr. Hewitt: That is what I am saying. We need a different approach, because the current approach is not working. We will not make friends in Brazil or collaborate or realize opportunities there if we simply look to stress our commonalities and try to sell what we have in terms of our Canadian advantage to Brazilians. They will not be interested. They have already expressed that disinterest. They will be interested in collaboration to build on existing strengths in the two countries to produce technologies, services and advantages that can then be either sold in each country or marketed to third countries, to the benefit of both. That is how I interpret the mood.
The Chair: They are open to doing business with us, but in a new way?
Mr. Hewitt: Totally. The rhetoric of the past has not worked, and the traditional diplomatic approaches have not worked. I can tell you that I have attended too many meetings with Canadian and Brazilian governments and others present, including academics and industry, where we go over the same territory again and again and again. At the end of it, the Brazilians go home and the Canadians go home, and nothing happens, in my view.
The Chair: One of the newer approaches in Canada is to put emphasis on the trade possibilities from provinces to other countries. Canada does facilitate Saskatchewan or Ontario, et cetera. Should we be envisioning new ways to work with the states in Brazil? We keep hearing about São Paulo and Rio, but there are all those other states that have potential that has not nearly matched Rio or São Paulo. Other people are starting to do business there. Would we be better off searching for new venues within Brazil, because of its size? Basically, they operated as countries within countries, someone told me, as opposed to states within countries.
Mr. Hewitt: Yes. Quebec has long had a very special relationship with Brazil, though I would not say necessarily with specific states. You will probably find more Brazilian students studying in Quebec and more students from Quebec studying in Brazil than from any other part of Canada. A lot of that interest has aligned culturally — literature, film, the arts. I attended a meeting three years ago of the Association for Canadian Studies in Brazil. It was attended by 300 academics from all across South America, and 100 of them were from Brazil. Of that 100, I would say probably two thirds to three quarters had undertaken most of their research and work on subjects, if they involved Canada, on matters that would have been within Quebec. Quebec has certainly managed to create strong relationships through a number of vehicles.
It would be a provincial matter for Ontario, say, to approach the state of São Paulo and look for particular advantage economically or academically or in terms of student mobility. Ontario, as I understand it, having spoken to senior government officials, is not there yet.
Senator Di Nino: You spoke about Quebec being an attractive destination for students or education.
Mr. Hewitt: And academics.
Senator Di Nino: You said at the beginning that they were coming to Canada to learn English. Is this what they are doing in Quebec? Are they learning English, or is it completely different?
Mr. Hewitt: The relationship with Quebec is historical, and it operates primarily at the level of researchers, faculty members at universities, artists and probably graduate students. The wave of students is recent. They are coming to learn English in large numbers, but of course they are going to locations in Southwestern Ontario. I know, because I see them every summer out west in Vancouver.
Senator Di Nino: In Quebec, they are studying something other than language?
Mr. Hewitt: Yes.
Senator De Bané: Mr. Hewitt, by training, you are a sociologist?
Mr. Hewitt: Yes.
Senator De Bané: I would like to ask the sociologist about something. We will see if your reaction is the same as mine.
As you know, a peculiarity occurs in Latin America for the installation of a new president. They invite all countries of the Americas. Canada always sends a minister to the installation of a president of a country in the Americas. The only countries invited are in the Americas, and Canada attends. However, when Canada has an installation, we never invite them.
As a sociologist, how do you think they interpret our behaviour?
Mr. Hewitt: That goes back to a point I made earlier on how to create a more welcoming environment. The government should reciprocate the invitation and consider sending a sitting prime minister to the installation of a Brazilian president. The previous Brazilian president was in power for eight years. As I recall, he never came to Canada for an official visit, although I believe he was in Vancouver briefly for something.
Senator De Bané: President Cardoso came to Canada.
Mr. Hewitt: President Cardoso came to my university, but I do not think President Lula came even once.
Senator De Bané: We accept their invitation to attend, but we send a minister, not the prime minister. However, when we have the installation of a new prime minister, we do not invite them. I find that shocking. I am happy to have this discussion with a sociologist. I have been making that recommendation to the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade for many years. It is shocking that we accept their invitation but deem them not worthy of our invitation. It is absolutely shocking. Maybe that is why when they think of the North, they think of the United States and that Canada is part of England. I have heard that often. For them, Canada, the U.K. and the monarchy are one entity. Am I right?
Mr. Hewitt: In part you are right. I will leave it to you to pursue your suggestion.
Senator De Bané: I want you to be critical.
Mr. Hewitt: Canada has engaged more directly with the Americas. I have been to the OAS, the Organization of American States. Canada has a much stronger presence than it has had before. We are better known in the region. We are engaging on a number of fronts bilaterally and multilaterally. That might be something we should think about with respect to extending courtesies.
I am not a political sociologist and certainly not a political scientist. However, I noticed one difference between Canada and the U.S. when our delegation with the former Governor General flew into Brasilia. We landed in an Armed Forces Airbus. It was painted gray and you could read "Canada" over the gray if you were not wearing sunglasses. At the airport in Brasilia, we saw not one, not two, but three jets on the tarmac emblazoned with "President of the United States of America." The President was not there, but some senior government officials had arrived. I asked what they were doing there, and was told, "They are here to negotiate a trade deal." All of the activity in Brazil became sucked into that particular activity. I would have to say that the United States, for various reasons, tends to pay particular attention to Brazil and South America and to act with a manner of deference and understanding that Canada has not undertaken yet, or may well not undertake for various reasons of the way we do business globally. I can tell you that it is noticed in Brazil.
Senator De Bané: Absolutely. Mr. Hewitt, Brazil has a population of 200 million people, and it will be 400 million in about 30 years. Does Brazil have protectionist mechanisms, or is it beginning to open up?
Mr. Hewitt: Early on, Brazil went through a period of protectionist import substitution, much as Canada did after World War II. Not speaking for the Brazilian government, the central bank or otherwise, I see much less of that today. The flood of imports is increasing at high levels, which can be cause for concern to government regarding the trade balance, similar to concern in Canada. I see much less of that now than we would have seen 20 years ago.
Senator De Bané: My last question is a curiosity. As the vice-president of research and international relations, how many months of the year do you travel around the world?
Mr. Hewitt: I travel every month.
Senator De Bané: Do you visit all continents?
Mr. Hewitt: Yes.
Senator De Bané: Wow.
Mr. Hewitt: And Ottawa even more.
Senator De Bané: Would you like to tell us anything about what other countries are doing? What would you say to the Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade?
Mr. Hewitt: I would say that if you look at the approach of the university sector in developing international relations, which we do for a variety of reasons, not only to attract top students but also to develop collaborative research because we can no longer do everything at home and to develop relationships with companies, we are no longer targeting only countries; we are targeting regions within countries to try to seek advantage for universities. When I travel to India, I do not take on all of India. I take on a few institutions in a particular region of India where I think I have competitive advantage and where I will develop the strongest possible relationships. We are doing the same thing in China, Hong Kong and Brazil. If asked, my advice to the Government of Canada — and I have never been asked in this format — would be to follow precisely what I said earlier: First, start thinking outside the box and learn to appreciate and understand better how your target thinks and how to engage. Second, start to target those sectors, segments, aspects and opportunities of a country that will provide advantage to Canada, and if you can, in a win-win context.
Senator De Bané: Thank you very much.
Senator Downe: Good advice.
Senator D. Smith: Where do you go in India, and what are your targets?
Mr. Hewitt: You are asking me to give away my competitive edge. This is a matter of public record; I have learned that. I have probably said things I should not have said already, but I can tell you we target the top Indian Institutes of Technology, in particular the ones that many universities do not approach for various reasons such as logistics, transportation or omission. That is the strategic approach for us. We target top schools, but not the ones that everyone else targets. I will seek no advantage from that.
Senator D. Smith: Was it Hyderabad that we went to?
Mr. Hewitt: Not Hyderabad. We could talk about that off-line, I am sure.
The Chair: I do not think we have time to trace all the states of India. Is that satisfactory, Senator Smith? Perhaps you could take it up later, informally.
Mr. Hewitt: I will give you my email address.
Senator Mahovlich: Where do the brightest students come from?
Mr. Hewitt: In the world?
Senator Mahovlich: Yes.
Mr. Hewitt: This is a good question. In the old days, you would say they came from Germany or France or Scandinavia. Now there are top schools and bright students even within these emerging economies. They are coming out of very good programs. I think any university or any country that is not looking everywhere at the best places will be losing advantage. If you are asking me today where we are looking and where we are finding top students, I would say India. About 1 per cent of applicants are accepted to the Indian Institutes of Technology. These people are instantly and automatically the cream of the crop in this country, so you go after them. As well, we have China, at the best institutions, and Brazil, five or six institutions, and of course the traditional markets of the U.S. and Europe. Increasingly now, we have Singapore and South Korea. You have to look everywhere these institutions are. It is no longer a question of going to one place in the world. Everyone is going out to these places. Talent is everywhere. It is moving in and it is going out. Boundaries are becoming meaningless. Canada must compete in this environment. This is a fundamental truth.
[Translation]
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: My question is more about politics and I am asking for your opinion. In view of its enormous weight, Brazil is obviously a power that cannot be ignored nor contested in South America. A vast majority of countries always accept Brazil's invitations. They attend the summits and the meetings of organizations that Brazil has created. Its mediation is almost always welcome. These countries accept it readily. You can't deny that several of these initiatives have really contributed to defuse conflicts between Colombia and its neighbours.
In your opinion, why is it that influential countries in the region don't support Brazil's aspiration to a permanent seat on the Security Council at the UN? Besides, initiatives to have its representatives elected as heads of international organizations are almost systematically blocked by its neighbours. Have you been able to observe what is happening?
[English]
Mr. Hewitt: I would probably focus more on the first part of the question with respect to Brazil and the support that it would receive or not receive from its neighbours and only suggest that countries in ascendancy, particularly when they are in geographic proximity, may enter into a somewhat competitive posture. Within the region, there will be lingering concerns about the predominance of Brazil in the region and its aspirations within the region, and that may account for that outcome. Beyond that, and with respect to the specific Security Council issue, I cannot comment with any expertise or confidence.
[Translation]
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: You might have seen something.
Senator Nolin: Dr. Hewitt, my question parallels my colleague's. In Le Monde Diplomatique, and I don't suppose you read French, but in the March issue they talk of an unusual alliance. They allude to the fact that BRIC has become BRICS, as South Africa is now a member. I am not trying to understand what is unusual about that. However, a Canadian who wants to know more about Brazil will discover that the French think it's unusual. In your opinion, is Canada in a position to appreciate the technicalities of South-South multilateralism? All these alliances between countries of the Southern hemisphere — and this reflect my colleague's concerns — and you just alluded to it with the choice of top students, do you think that Canadians can really understand the fine points, since we are more comfortable in what we call the Western world, which is really the Western part of the Northern hemisphere?
[English]
Mr. Hewitt: You would think so. Canada is a member of the Commonwealth, and many of the members of the Commonwealth are definitely Global South, there is no question, and the same would be true for the francophone.
To answer your question, the answer is no, or probably no. Even though we have many people who understand not only the dynamics of the South but Canada's role in that — and I would be one of them — I would think that generally and politically, at this level, that is not well understood. It is one of the things we need to understand. As I said before, if we are to engage in Brazil, we need to understand Brazil's aspirations. Why is Brazil eyeing Africa? Africa is a priority for Brazil now. Why is that? In part, it is because there is a whole legacy of connection between Africa and Brazil. Many countries in Africa speak Portuguese. Africa is emerging quickly now in the world in terms of living standards, industrialization and adoption of technology. You just have to go there to see it. Brazil's strategy is, and China's was for a period as well and may still be, that if you can get into this market now, create your alliances, establish your connections and build trust, these markets will be with you, for you and together with you on an ongoing basis in the future. We need to understand that, the same way we need to understand why Brazil is approaching China and India and why it is looking at Russia, if it is.
There is no question that the analytical capacity is here in Canada in spades. However, I do not think there is a broad appreciation for that at the level of politics, shall we say.
[Translation]
Senator Nolin: If I understand correctly, to really appreciate the relationship between Canada and Brazil, we will have to assess the importance of Brazil's relationships with those countries of the Southern hemisphere.
[English]
Mr. Hewitt: That would be more important than Canada waiting — as government, as a country — to hear from Brazil how interested they are in working for us.
Senator Nolin: Of course. That is exactly my point.
Mr. Hewitt: We need to be proactive about this and understand better where they are going and why they are going there and maybe why we could be going there with them. That comes back, again, to the fundamental necessity of rethinking how we approach and engage with countries like Brazil.
The Chair: It may be trite, but if we are to look at the aspirations of Brazil, we will have to know the aspirations of other South American countries and whether they are in concert with Brazil or whether there will be a push back. Other countries yielded to historic leaders within Africa. That is changing now. South Africa has come into it; Nigeria is on the forefront; and Egypt is struggling — take away the issue at the moment in Egypt, even consider the last five or ten years — to have the strong voice that it had before. It is a constant shifting of allegiances. You are saying that we have not really studied that much in Canada.
Mr. Hewitt: Some people have. There is no question. As I said, the analytical capacity is there. As to how much we will listen and how much that will end up as policy and then be implemented either through our government ministries, particularly Foreign Affairs and International Trade, and the Government of Canada itself, that is another story. As academics, we see this all the time. We see government policy and read the newspaper, and many of us wonder why a particular attitude or action is taken or why no one listens to us, when people have spent many a year trying to understand these things.
Senator Nolin: That goes back to the attitude that my colleague Senator De Bané raised: total ignorance.
The Chair: Perhaps our study can address why that information is not translated into policies.
Mr. Hewitt: If you do nothing more than that, that would be significant. I certainly would support that.
Senator Nolin: We will try to do at least that.
The Chair: The chair took a liberty by asking another question. Now the deputy chair has another question, and I must yield to him.
Senator Downe: In your opinion, is Brazil prepared to assume or does it want to assume or would it see itself assuming a dominant role in the region? For example, my limited understanding of South America is that when there has been trouble, the United States has stepped in, and the results have been unfortunate in many countries, such as Chile and, to a lesser degree, Brazil. Would Brazil see other countries stepping back? For example, if Argentina has a financial collapse or some other problems, would Brazil be the logical country that would work to solve that, or would they still say, "That is not really our problem, and we are doing other things?" How would that work?
Mr. Hewitt: I think it would be the former. Again, I cannot speak for the Brazilian government, but within the context of Mercosur, yes, they would have an intense interest in becoming engaged in that. Would the United States be interested? Yes, of course. In matters involve South America, the United States would confer with Brazil in almost everything, as a matter of course. That is just my understanding. I do not speak for any of these governments. That is my observation from the past.
The Chair: Thank you, Dr. Hewitt. You have generated a lot of interest. When we started out, I was starting to become pessimistic as to why we started this study, but you ended on a note whereby we have a lot to consider about our foreign policy strategically when we are talking about international trade. Perhaps some of the old moulds we have must be either broken or cracked and some new models must be used. Perhaps this will be the study that will do it. Your input has been helpful.
Thank you, senators and Mr. Hewitt. We are adjourned.
(The committee adjourned.)