Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Aboriginal Peoples
Issue 37 - Evidence - May 29, 2013
OTTAWA, Wednesday, May 29, 2013
The Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples met this day at 6:52 p.m. to examine and report on the federal government's constitutional, treaty, political and legal responsibilities to First Nations, Inuit and Metis peoples, and on other matters generally relating to the Aboriginal Peoples of Canada.
Senator Lillian Eva Dyck (Deputy Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Deputy Chair: Good evening. I would like to welcome all honourable senators and members of the public who are watching this meeting of the Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples on CPAC or on the web. My name is Lillian Dyck. I am from Saskatchewan and I am the deputy chair of the committee. This evening our chair had another engagement, so I will be chairing the meeting.
The mandate of this committee is to examine legislation and matters relating to the Aboriginal peoples of Canada generally. In considering what studies the committee might like to undertake, from time to time we invite individuals, organizations and departments to give us an overview of issues of concern within their mandate.
Recently we have heard from witnesses on the subject of Aboriginal peoples within the criminal justice system. Today we will carry on with this subject by hearing from representatives of the Assembly of First Nations.
However, before hearing from our witnesses, I would like to take this opportunity to ask the members of the committee who are present this evening to introduce themselves. I will start on my left.
Senator Sibbeston: I am Nick Sibbeston from the Northwest Territories.
Senator Watt: Charlie Watt from Nunavik.
Senator Raine: Nancy Greene Raine from B.C.
Senator Patterson: Dennis Patterson, Nunavut.
Senator Demers: Jacques Demers, Quebec.
Senator Tannas: Scott Tannas, Alberta.
Senator Seth: Asha Seth, Ontario.
Senator Beyak: Lynn Beyak, Ontario.
The Deputy Chair: Members, please help me by welcoming our Assembly of First Nations witnesses. First, we have Shawn Atleo, the National Chief. Welcome, Chief Atleo. You are well known across the country.
Accompanying him are Cameron Alexis, the Regional Chief of Alberta; and Roger Augustine, Regional Chief of New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island.
We understand, Chief Atleo, that you have another engagement and limited time of about 45 minutes, but that the regional chiefs can remain to answer any questions that might still be outstanding. Could you please proceed with your presentation.
Shawn (A-in-chut) Atleo, National Chief, Assembly of First Nations: Thank you so much, Madam Chair, Senator Dyck and to your colleagues. Senators, thank you for the opportunity to speak with you today. As mentioned, I am very honoured to be here with my colleagues, Regional Chief Roger Augustine, to my left, with whom I have worked for a good long time now, and our colleague Regional Chief Cameron Alexis, as you mentioned, chair, representing Alberta, but he also brings with him a lot of experience in policing, being a former RCMP member. We are very appreciative that he has accepted national responsibilities on the portfolio of justice.
I know there would be awareness on a discussion like this among senators that our people, First Nations, continue to face a state of institutionalization. Far too many families have gone from Indian residential schools to medical facilities or foster homes, as well as to federal and provincial jails. This is a context that I am sure there is a lot of awareness about, that our people continue to be overrepresented in every area of the criminal justice system, as victims and offenders, in both the youth and adult systems.
We know that indigenous women and girls are more than five times more likely to die as the result of a violent act than Canadians generally. We know that currently over 21 per cent of the prison population is indigenous. When we look at federal women's prisons, that number rises to 32 per cent. When we go further to look at maximum security, the overrepresentation of First Nations women is truly staggering.
These are symptoms and indicators of something that is deeply broken. As legislators and as leaders, it is truly our collective responsibility to take action to fix it.
This is not a new or emergent issue. All of us around this table have thought about this and spoken about it before. There have been numerous inquiries and reports commissioned that have made concrete recommendations. Many have concluded that not only are the principles and procedures of the Canadian criminal justice system incompatible with indigenous customs and laws, but clear steps need to be taken to work toward reconciliation, to address the intergenerational effects of forced institutionalization and social and cultural harm.
It has been recommended that indigenous communities be empowered to establish their own justice systems, and this has been supported by the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.
Furthermore, the Law Reform Commission of Canada also supports that the justice system should not be uniform and that indigenous justice systems must shape and mould to fit the needs of indigenous people, be community based, and controlled by indigenous governments.
Maybe the question, Madam Chair, that must be asked and examined for your study is not what is the issue or what should we do to address these issues, but what has prevented us from getting the job done.
Last year, changes brought forward in Bill C-10's mandate prescribed minimum penalties for certain offences, thereby limiting the discretion of judges. In Gladue, the Supreme Court of Canada instructed sentencing judges to consider other systemic issues faced by Aboriginal offenders, including social and economic conditions and the legacy of dispossession and colonization faced by Aboriginal peoples.
In Gladue, the Supreme Court also established that Aboriginal offenders should, in certain cases, be treated differently. In section 718.2(e) of the Criminal Code, it directs sentencing judges to undertake the process of sentencing Aboriginal offenders differently, in order to endeavour to achieve a truly fit and proper sentence in the particular case. The changes made through this bill will actively prevent the use of alternative resolution or consideration of the background of Aboriginal offenders.
This is not a restorative agenda. This is not an agenda that seeks to prevent future harm or address the conditions that have brought people to a critical or criminal incident. This is an agenda that seeks to both police and punish behaviour.
First Nations communities have the remarkable distinction of being both over- and under-policed. Disproportionate attention is given to our people by police services, often resulting in more frequent stopping, holding without charge, and harsher, sometimes physical treatment in police custody. We have recently had a report from the international Human Rights Watch on RCMP misconduct and the failure to investigate and outright abuse in British Columbia. This is now subject to an investigation by the public complaints commission. This is but one example of the overall climate of mistrust and misunderstanding between our peoples and the police.
Ironically, at the same time, First Nations police services have developed into effective, professional and culturally appropriate, community-based approaches. However, these services face critical challenges. They are underfunded and based on a formula that does not reflect their operating costs or real needs based on calls for services and culturally appropriate responses. While First Nations police services are the first responder, know the communities and people they serve, and have demonstrated clear results in reducing crime, they are considered only enhancements or augmentations to other police services.
Again, we raise the question: How does this make any sense from a financial perspective, from a practical perspective and from a results-based perspective? These are critical, essential services and should be treated like any other police service in the country.
I know there is deep experience at the Senate, including, Madam Chair, the chair who is absent this evening, about policing all around the country. Very rarely are police told that they will not get the money they need to do their jobs. Very rarely are they subject to cuts or budget restraints. For First Nations, this is not the case.
First Nations communities have the solutions. Across the country, we see our own peoples taking responsibility and control, in some cases through small justice circles that support victims or those coming out of jail in their healing. In others, we see full articulation of traditional systems, of our own ways of dealing with those who cause harm, and of supporting each other.
Ultimately it is our communities and nations that will rebuild our own justice systems and institutions to respond to our values, to support our children and families, and to truly work to reconcile the paths of our citizens, whatever may have led them to where they are today.
However, again, where significant efforts have been made toward establishing systems to administer justice on their own terms — such as the Teslin Tlingit court system, which was negotiated as part of their self-government agreement — they face constant barriers to achieving their vision and continue to have critical federal decisions delayed. We also see this in a federal piecemeal and programmatic response to First Nations issues and myriad efforts in various departments on crime prevention, violence prevention and restorative justice. These are all worthwhile, but they do not provide the comprehensive vision or support truly needed for First Nations.
Our communities want to restore their own systems — to enjoy security, to support their children to thrive, learn and grow, to be safe in their homes, and to be safe wherever they may go.
One of our most pressing and urgent priorities is to seek justice for indigenous women and girls who have gone missing or have been killed. I know this is a matter, senators, that you are all familiar with. I commend Senator Lovelace Nicholas for calling for a Senate inquiry into missing and murdered Aboriginal women. As well, we acknowledge the House of Commons committee that has been struck to examine this issue, but I think this is another area where we can deservedly ask: Why have we not addressed this? After all the studies, the work and the statements, why do our women continue to be targeted?
We welcome a study by the Senate on justice matters related to indigenous peoples in Canada. I would recommend that the Senate critically examine why, after countless recommendations and studies, governments have not taken the steps necessary to truly address the issues our peoples face in the justice system. Such a study could focus on the harm of institutionalization to our peoples and the real social and financial impacts of the current legislative and policy agenda.
What are the costs to society or to a family of caring for children whose mother has been murdered? What are the costs of locking away a generation of young men for gang activity, rather than investing in their learning and supporting their development? These are not abstract or hypothetical questions. For too many First Nations citizens, these are the everyday challenges they face. Maybe honestly examining these questions and outlining the costs to society, to governments, and to our families and communities would provide what is needed for sustained commitment to action.
I believe we know what the problem is. I believe we know what the solutions are. However, what we need is the determination, the will, and the leadership to get there. Unifying our approach through dialogue and understanding is the first step. Fully supporting our governments and our nations to implement their own solutions will clear the barriers to achieving justice.
I look forward to our conversation tonight. Thank you again, Madam Chair and senators, for your efforts and your willingness to further study this issue. Thank you very much.
The Deputy Chair: Thank you, National Chief. We will now open up for questions.
Senator Demers: Thank you very much, chief. You have been here before. It is always clear, and I really like that.
You have a very young population. We were at a meeting the other day, and they were talking about 25 years. What is happening right now, from the four years I have been on this committee, to the progression of violence, especially concerning women? The fact that you have such a young population, what do you need to get to these young kids? Is it structure? The worst age is between 18 and 25. I see more women and young men getting involved.
As a former police officer, how do you communicate and work with these young kids so they become better citizens? Where is the help? How do you get this help?
Mr. Atleo: I know you are pointing to my colleagues.
Senator Demers: As a former policeman, maybe he can answer, but I would like to hear your answer.
Mr. Atleo: I think we need to be very clear about the links when I make a comment about investing in our young people.
Education for our leaders has been a top priority not just in the last year and not just in the last six months. The Assembly of First Nations has been focused on Indian control of Indian education since the early 1970s and it was a priority long before that.
Making the point in a moment like this when it comes to cost, it is more cost effective to open the door to a school; you then close door to a jail cell. Right now we have higher incarceration rates among our young people in some cases than we do graduation rates. It has been acknowledged, and I believe well regarded and understood, that First Nations young learners are underfunded compared to learners in mainstream Canadian society.
This is a system that we have collectively inherited. Therefore, it is about investing in those young people. It is recognizing that that is a choice that we as a society are facing right now. We need 60 schools right now. To open the door to those schools means closing the door to a jail cell. That is not something that we have seen take place.
We now have national attention on the issue of education. That work needs to rapidly move to investing in young people. It very much links to what we have been raising nationally, both last year and most recently in January of this year.
We need to see the treaties implemented. The issue of land negotiation needs to move forward. We need to reform outdated policies and bring them up to date with advances in common law. We need to achieve economic prosperity for our people so there are opportunities for work and employment that match education success, while at the same time recognizing there are a myriad of other challenges including the need for housing and safe drinking water. Sometimes it feels like this is a daunting task. It is incredibly complex.
In the area of justice, we do have many First Nations who have established their own justice systems. Those need to be supported.
I should add, as a final note, the point around Teslin Tlingit. They negotiated a settlement agreement with Canada and they continue to make trips here to sit with me and to lobby on Parliament Hill to say the spirit and intent of that agreement, which they negotiated with an army of lawyers over one or two decades, are not being supported.
Within those agreements includes their vision for justice. There is something we need to recognize. I am making a recommendation at the outset. There is a lot of work that has gone on in this area. In this regard, the Senate needs to examine why we have neither implemented nor done what we know needs to be done.
Maybe there is a need to take a closer look at the powerful economic imperative, which is an aging, retiring mainstream Canadian work force, matched with the fastest growing segment of the Canadian population — that is, indigenous people under 25 — and tremendous potential to match that growing cadre of young people with skills and training with the labour market.
Make no mistake, if we do not invest then those patterns where incarceration rates outpace graduation rates will continue. That does not serve First Nations, nor does it serve this country.
Senator Demers: Great answer; thank you very much, Chief Atleo.
Senator Sibbeston: I agree with Chief Atleo that we need the government to do something. How can we get the government and the authorities, as it were, to do something real about Aboriginal people in their jail system?
I know that from my own experience in government that the area of justice and criminal system, the jail system, is probably the hardest thing to change. Aspects of education, housing and health can be changed, but when it comes to the justice system, you have very strong, well-entrenched people. The police are very strong. The prosecutors are very strong. The judges are set in their ways. The jail authorities love for people to come to jail. It gives them cause to live and justifies their existence. The system is a very difficult one to change.
The other aspect is that Aboriginal people, particularly those who get into trouble, are not the focus. It seems, like in any community, there are so many issues that need to be dealt with. I have been a lawyer and I spent a few years defending people. The reason I eventually moved away from that is I do not want to spend my life dealing with people who get into trouble. I want to spend my life doing positive things for society, as it were.
This is a very difficult situation to deal with and so, obviously, we need to somehow or another impress government and impress individuals that they need to do something. The answer is simple. There is a solution. It is a community solution where you set up community justice. I have worked in that field for a couple of years, too, and it is just like magic. You get people sitting around dealing with the problem and the solution is healing. It is like magic when you get the offender in among a group of people, with elders talking to the person.
The emphasis must be on healing and changing their ways. It is a challenging thing, but there are solutions. You need people in government to have the idea that we could change things and do something about it.
I ask you, Chief Atleo, in your dealings with the government in the last few years, have you ever raised the issue with Prime Minister Harper and the senior government people and have you received any indication there is a possibility that something can be done about this?
Mr. Atleo: I have a couple thoughts. The efforts, both at the Crown gathering last January and the meeting with the Prime Minister, which was my last conversation with the Prime Minister this last January, have to do with the recognition, the need to recognize that First Nations have the right to jurisdiction over the issue of justice. It is also articulated in the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. It is given expression in different ways.
One example is the Teslin Tlingit, who negotiated an agreement that includes, as they would describe it, the right to draw down on the authority in the area of justice in order to carry out Teslin Tlingit vision for justice, just as Senator Sibbeston articulates. Yet, we found the reason we are pressing, at the highest political level, for attention to be paid to support First Nations to implement their treaty right and their vision for a jurisdiction in justice is that very reason.
What we are finding is that the support is lacking to implement even a modern-day agreement that, as I said, has been negotiated with legions of lawyers with all the i's dotted and t's crossed, and that we still struggle. That is not just one agreement. There is a land claims coalition that was forged by those who hold modern-day agreements because there is the lack of support, particularly at the federal government level, for the implementation of agreements.
That sentiment is expressed in all treaties, whether they were forged recently or whether the treaty was forged a long time ago, for example, treaties numbers 1 to 11, or the Robinson-Huron treaties or the Mi'kmaw treaties that are 400 years old. That sentiment exists across the board.
First Nations feel strongly about the right to jurisdiction in an area like justice. Groups like the Teslin Tlingit have gone about negotiating how that would interact with the rest of society. They found there are barriers to implementing the agreed to concepts within the agreement. That is the first piece.
The second piece has to do with this notion of the challenges that our young people face and it picks up on the point of Senator Demers. I want to quote a former court judge and a man who spent five years serving as Lieutenant Governor of British Columbia: That is Stó:lo Chief Steven Point. At a forum recently he referred to this issue of our people, the conditions that we face and the way it feels like we have been treated. I hope he will not get upset with me for repeating his words, but he did say this in public. As my elder, I want to say that this is what I received from him.
He said that the way we are often spoken to is like breaking the leg of a man one day and then the next day blaming him for limping. He said that is how our people so often feel we are spoken to or treated, with the issues and challenges of generations of institutionalization, the 1960s scoop and residential schools. The list just seems to go on and the patterns seem to continue to perpetuate themselves.
The bills I have been referring to and the policies that have been unfurled are not looking to bring harmony back or to break the cycle of institutionalization; rather they are seemingly perpetuating them. I know this is not what any of us would want to see happen. We want to see our young people succeed.
We are here to say that we have answers that have been negotiated between First Nations governments and the federal Crown that would stand to serve as examples of what a real vision could emerge to look like. It is not so much that we need to study those elements; those elements are already there and they have already been studied.
I think about the recent interaction I had with the Office of the Provincial Health Officer and in terms of the special report done in British Columbia recently by Dr. Perry Kendall. It is one more report that adds further credence to the need to ensure that First Nations supports and a focus on First Nations solutions in the area of justice are required.
Senator Demers and Madam Chair, I was thinking particularly about the young people. Maybe Chief Alexis can be permitted to respond to the plight of young people, because he brings 20 years of experience on the force as an RCMP member. That is why we asked him to take a lead on justice. I leave that with you, Madam Chair.
The Deputy Chair: Would you care to respond now, Chief Alexis?
Cameron Alexis, Regional Chief (Alberta), Assembly of First Nations: Thank you very much, Madam Chair and members of the Senate. I thank you for giving me this opportunity to come before you to speak on these issues of mutual concern. I thank the National Chief, and my colleague, Mr. Augustine, for being here as well.
This is the second time I have spoken before the Senate, so it is quite an interesting position to be in and I am very thankful for this opportunity.
Thank you very much, Senator Demers, for your comments. I am a First Nation person; I am from the Alexis Nakota Sioux First Nation in central Alberta, which is Treaty 6 territory. I do speak my language.
[Editor's Note: Chief Alexis spoke in his native language.]
If I was to drill down, sir, there are a lot of issues that perhaps overarch in all of this; they overlap in many different realms of situations, including health, education and economics. Why economics? I touch on that because, historically, the First Nations communities were the oldest communities in this country that do to a degree still live in poverty.
Poverty is where a lot of situations begin; due to poverty you end up with situations with drugs and the situation with alcohol. Some of our young people go to major urban centres to heighten their education, as an example. Unfortunately, they do not always find that. They go to major urban centres to get quality of work, perhaps; unfortunately, to some degree, some end up on the wrong side of the law, so to speak.
The demise begins there for some of them, from which there is no return. It is sad to see that, because I have been on the streets of major urban centres. Watching my people suffer in major urban centres is not pretty, especially for a First Nations person.
The main issue that we have to tackle collectively— and it is not limited to this — is poverty. If we can eliminate poverty in this country, not just for First Nations but all inclusive, perhaps we can have a better life for everybody in terms of all Canadians.
The other issue I would like to touch on is the issue of treaties. Treaty rights in this country should be portable. I go back to the children and youth again; treaty rights do not always follow the child. If someone wants to go to post- secondary education or university, they will find that sometimes the funding does not follow the youth. To a degree, that is what happens.
One more quick comment, if I may, Madam Chair.
The Deputy Chair: Yes, please.
Mr. Alexis: On the justice side of things, we all need a paradigm shift. The lens with which we see this world at this time in Canadian history needs to start changing.
Our population is increasing. What's the answer? We do not have an answer. Our institutions are increasing in capacity; that is dependency on an institution. What will you do? That overarches in other areas, as well. We have to drill down to every facet of review on justice completely, in my view.
In saying that, senator, you raised a good point. On the corrections side, they do have unions. We need to speak about unions and how much authority they have. Do the federal statutes always interlock? Do they work together? I do not always see that, because there are protocols within the statutes and entities. Those things need to be drilled down and looked at and reviewed in their entirety, and then built from the ground up.
Senator Raine: Thank you all for being here. If you do not mind, I would like Chief Atleo to expand a little bit and explain the Teslin Tlingit court system they have proposed. I am not familiar with it. Could you outline that for us?
They have a proposal to put in place — a justice system for their First Nation. What kind of supports are they missing?
Mr. Atleo: I could not answer the details. It might be good to actually engage them directly on that.
My interactions have been around supporting their challenges to come to a negotiated agreement about implementation of provisions in their agreements that they have already negotiated.
I can speak more broadly, though. I know there are communities that set up their own justice and court systems that could also be described. Akwesasne is an example, covering the borders of both Quebec and New York State.
I can be more specific and talk about Ahousaht, my own village. We instituted our Ahousaht justice system. There are times when, in my village, we would ask the RCMP to vacate the premises, because we would take over during the time of a potlatch. They respected that; we would have an accord — an understanding. When our laws are put in place, there would be periods of time where the depth of peace and stability is unlike any other time when our own laws are in place.
We have had offenders go through circle sentencing. As Senator Sibbeston was describing, that is about helping to repair relationships and put people on the path to healing and reconciliation. It is to break the cycles of intergenerational trauma that resulted in interaction with the criminal justice system.
It is getting at those underlying reasons, but using the local knowledge and laws. Every First Nation would have within their collective memory the ability to apply systems of justice that work for them and that they can understand.
For us, we used a modification of a form of banishment when we had those who were doing bootlegging and going against our local laws of our village. We had well over 90 per cent success rates, where people would willingly go along with banishment from the community on the premise that if they did not choose that, then they would have to leave the community.
The sense of the strength of the relationships of our peoples is such that it compelled them to go along with this work, to be supported by the elders, to receive modern forms of healing and counselling, but also our ceremonies and traditions using our language and the wisdom of our elders and our knowledgeable ones on our lands.
I would be able to bring forward a number of those same people from my own village, who could sit before you and talk about the changes in their lives and the changes in behaviours away from going against not only our laws, but mainstream laws. It has a much higher success rate than the kinds of experiences that we are finding with young people being sent into the jail system. It seems to be just a further training ground for people in the area of criminality. It is not the kind of experience that helps us to break cycles.
I think about Dr. Perry Kendall's reflections on the Safe Streets and Communities Act, Bill C-10, and the implications of this act and disproportionate impact on vulnerable populations, particularly our people, this cycle that we are trying to break of crime, along with poor health, issues of poverty that are very difficult to escape, and that we need to focus on prevention and on rehabilitation.
It comes back to Justice Steven Point's point when he says it is like breaking the leg of a man today and then tomorrow blaming him for limping. In essence, on the institutional and crime bill sides, that is the experience we are receiving, not a focus on the healing, the rehabilitation or the prevention, notwithstanding the point I made about investing in education.
We are before the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal on child welfare. This comes back to what my colleague was talking about. These issues are within the scope of treaty implementation, implementation of the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, settlement of the land question.
These are the major points we have raised now in our two major meetings with government, both last January and most recently this January. It is inextricably linked. I know this is the lens of justice, but I think it is right and proper to link it to the bigger discussion about the relationship between First Nations and the Crown and implementation of agreements that have already been negotiated in recent days.
Senator Raine: Your community has self-governance, I believe.
Mr. Atleo: No.
Senator Raine: Not yet? Are you able to have your own justice system working? Are you doing that in partnership with the RCMP? How did you set it up? It sounds like it is on the right path.
Mr. Atleo: On the one hand, we have a local agreement with the RCMP. In Ahousaht, we have one of the first, if not the first, RCMP detachment in the country. That local relationship goes a long way back.
I have to say that right now our relationship with the federal Crown is principally expressed through the Indian Act, so we are not a self-governing community. By extension, every First Nation, every indigenous nation, has inherent laws and rights in areas across the full spectrum of what we call policy, including justice. Some are implementing those. That would not be recognized in a formal way by the federal government or by mainstream law. It could be the issuing of fines by First Nations in their areas, fines that are being paid to First Nations courts that have been established, or the kind of system I am describing in Ahousaht, which is very formal from the Ahousaht law perspective but is not formally recognized. That is distinct or different than in the Yukon and the Teslin Tlingit, who have negotiated a modern agreement, where lawyers on every side were dotting i's and crossing t's, and agreeing there would be a Teslin Tlingit vision of justice that would be supported.
What I am saying, senators, is that examples like that need to be supported to be implemented successfully. By doing so, you are empowering and supporting local solutions that can produce real results. If we support that work nationally, it means supporting the kind of outcome we press for, that the Prime Minister committed to in January 11, to support First Nations, to implement treaties on a nation-to-nation, treaty-by-treaty basis. That is the work before us.
I think through the lens of justice is important because it is about our most vulnerable. It is also about the young people and the need to move quickly to support the young people and invest in them.
The Deputy Chair: I will ask a supplementary question. You were talking about the different types of arrangements. It made me think about the different arrangements we see across the country with respect to education. In some instances, we have a bipartite agreement, in other cases tripartite. I am wondering if that is an approach that can be taken, where you go from local agreements with your nearest municipality and then move on from there to the full control by a First Nation of their policing.
As a follow-up to that, has anyone ever done a national survey to what you have just described to describe the various initiatives across the country? Is there anywhere we can go to see what is there?
Mr. Atleo: Madam Chair, I think that may be a good question as that immediately does not come to mind that that has been done. We can certainly examine that. I think we have some examples that we would bring on a day like today. We know reports have been done. I would not want to call them best practices, but I do see that part of your question is answered in part, in my view, by suggesting there is no one size fits all. Top down has not worked in the past and it does not work now.
Given that I must now take my leave, Madam Chair, perhaps my colleagues can bring important reflections on your question. We support regions and nation-led solutions, wherever they may be, and to provide full support for that. I think that is a great question, one that we should perhaps consider reflecting on together.
The Deputy Chair: Just before you leave, I am wondering if that might be a suggestion that you might suggest the committee look at if we do not have that information.
Mr. Atleo: For me, it builds on the notion that there is a strong sense, like in education, like in justice, like in other areas. I would be over six feet tall if I were to stand on the reports that have been written about these issues. Our people have a sense, and especially the young people, that it is time for action. If this committee could consider the action side of this, that would be incredibly helpful.
I know excellent examples and experience are with my regional chief colleagues here. Thank you to the Senate committee for the privilege of being here with you this evening, and thank you for your attention to this important topic.
The Deputy Chair: Thank you, National Chief, for your wisdom.
We shall continue with Senator Seth.
Senator Seth: My question was for the chief. I understood from him that there are some programs targeted towards crime diversion that you have developed for the First Nations, for youth as young as 10 years old. Are you aware of any program Justice Canada provides for these youth? Are they successful?
Mr. Alexis: Thank you very much for the question. When you go back to RCAP, since 1991, there have been several volumes of recommendations and several initiatives that took place relative to engaging with the youth, so to speak. I will give you one example.
Restorative justice programs that were initiated in Australia, by the Aboriginals, were presented here in Canada. Restorative justice in sentencing circles, led by elders of communities, was working, and it is still to a degree used by the court systems, but not enough.
If you go back to the Gladue principles of 1999, for example, in Manitoba you will find very little has been used, so it now needs to be perhaps reflected upon and maybe some best practices that will work found. Look at the paradigm shifts, the emerging issues of gangs, of new street drugs, population increases and how we will deal with all these things. We have to look at those issues.
Madam Chair, I have one quick comment on the policing side. There are community tripartite agreements. There are agreements that are 51/49 with the provinces for policing in the provinces. Those agreements still exist, but are they used? That is another question. I wanted to touch on that.
In Alberta, for example, I will use my own community of Alexis, if I may, Madam Chair. For 35 years, the provincial courts of Alberta have actually used a court system in Alexis for the people of Alexis and the surrounding area. It has not been funded, but it has been in existence for 35 years. Perhaps upon conviction, they are brought before the elders for sentencing, and the sentencing could take place in the shape of, ``You will now work with the elders in terms of sweat lodges, sundance ceremony preparations and learning your culture, to be immersed in your culture.''
Those programs do exist, and I support that. Do they always work? Perhaps not, but not for lack of trying. It does work and I have seen it work. Restorative justice takes a little more time, in my observation, because it becomes volunteerism, but it does work. I hope I answered your questions to a degree.
Senator Patterson: I might direct this to Regional Chief Augustine because I believe there have been some initiatives in education in the Maritimes. Just to give a bit of quick background, we are here to talk about justice tonight, I know. However, it has come up and been observed that the higher risk of involvement with the criminal justice system is linked to a lack of education, so I want to ask a bit about education.
Your national chief talked about reports and the growing stack of reports. There were two important reports on education last year, as you know. There was the special panel that was commissioned by the Minister of Aboriginal Affairs, and then there was this committee's report. They both, I think, said the same thing, that we need to develop a First Nations education act to focus funds on education and to develop a fair and adequate funding formula. That is a quick summary of what our committee recommended.
I know that consultations are now under way. I know that it is a priority of the national chief and others before him, and I believe it is a priority of the former and present Ministers of Aboriginal Affairs.
I am wondering, Chief Augustine, whether you could give us your view on how that is going.
Roger Augustine, Regional Chief (New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island), Assembly of First Nations: I want to give you a brief background of my work. I was first elected councillor for Eel Ground First Nation — that is my community — in 1976. This month, I celebrated 38 years of First Nations politics. I used to be tall, dark and handsome. Now, you see what you see.
I have a son who works with The Correctional Service of Canada. He is a corrections officer. I have two nephews who are RCMP officers. I have a son who is a social worker. You see all these things that are taking place in our communities and the work that they have done and, from some of the reports that I still hear from our people who are in the business of corrections, a very hurtful history still rings true. When I think about it and hear their stories, it takes me back to 1976.
We have so many unresolved situations in our communities with corrections and the police officers. I truly admire the work that you are taking on, and it will take a long time to be able to resolve it.
In terms of education, in 1976, I started the first drug and alcohol education program in our community, from kindergarten to grade 7. It took 10 years to see the benefits and the progress of the success of that program. It is still going on. From that, we were able to work with men and women who continued on, becoming drug and alcohol counsellors at treatment centres. In my community, we have a treatment centre. We have a youth centre, and we have a very strong social structure. We spent years and years putting that together.
Senators, the sad part about all of that is that it just seems that we completed that circle and are right back where we started. It is not a comfortable feeling knowing that some of the communities might be suffering more than we are.
There is a lot of work going on, senator — and I will answer your question directly — that the national chief has supported. I was one of the few regional chiefs who attended the great meeting that took place in January with the Prime Minister. It was a very complicated event for us. It resulted in Idle No More, and the story went on.
However, the spirit of the Assembly of First Nations and the regional chiefs continue to pursue it and soon, I hope, we will be able to again have a meeting with the Prime Minister. I know our office was criticized over the initial meeting with the Prime Minister, the Crown gathering. We went ahead and did that. I could see, from the history and from experience, that we are making headway.
I know that tonight, in my story — and before I finish I want to share something with you — I still see hope. I still see hope. I think that, with the leadership of National Chief Atleo and the regional chiefs across the country, we are working hard. It is a complex situation for us. The regional chiefs still continue. Today, we had a very productive meeting. Today, we talked about issues that, three months ago, probably would have started a war. I believe National Chief Atleo and the regional chiefs have set that stage for what the future will look like for First Nations.
I try not to be too negative about what I saw in the past. I try not to be too negative about the stories that could break your heart. It has not really changed.
Just recently, I was contacted by one of our band members. The problem there was that she told me that she was visited — and this was only two weeks ago — by members of the police commission. She said, ``My daughter was raped by a police officer not too long ago. I reported it. I live alone, and I was visited by police officers and interrogated. I am harassed constantly by the police force. What could I do?''
That is story number one. A lot of our young men, growing up, were beaten. Young girls were raped. We are not talking 50 or 60 years ago; we are talking in the past 10 years.
As for the work that is taking place now and the work that needs to be done by the Assembly of First Nations with our leadership today, we continue to work hard. We continue to listen to our people. We continue to express our differences, like we did today, and move on. We will not be beaten. We are in this together. It does not matter what colour we are; we are in it together.
With the leadership that you see here tonight and the ones who work constantly as the executive, along with the staff of the Assembly of First Nations, we are here. That is why we are here, because we believe. We have faith that you will do the right thing and will hear the words and cries of our people as we move on to make this country a better place. That is all we are asking for.
The Deputy Chair: Thank you, Chief Augustine. You have given us some very heartbreaking news, and we receive that with the greatest respect. Thank you for sharing that with us.
Senator Patterson: I would like to thank the regional chief for that answer. I want to drill down a bit more.
The National Chief talked about taking a step and making something happen. I am just one person. I am not speaking on behalf of the government, but my view is that with all the focus on education last year, and with what I have heard from the political leaders at the AFN and in the Department of Aboriginal Affairs, there seems to be an agreement to make education a priority. These consultations are going on right now towards an act. I think we believe — our committee believes — that the creation of a First Nations education act would allow for the targeting of funds for education to ensure that the funds do not go anywhere else. We believed and recommended that that would be the basis for the formula that is needed and has been called for, an adequate formula.
What I would like to ask, if you know, or if you could share this, is how are those consultations going? You said we are working hard and we are making progress.
Mr. Augustine: Yes.
Senator Patterson: Is education, and what seems to be a common goal of developing an act, legislation, one of the areas where we are making progress? You said you see hope. Could you perhaps comment on that, please?
Mr. Augustine: Thank you again, senator. I apologize for not answering your question directly. There were certain things in my heart that I needed to say. I am placed here to represent the people and to voice their concerns and cries.
With regard to education, yes, the work is taking place. One of the regional chiefs, I believe, Regional Chief Morley Googoo is the one responsible for that file. We did not get the report today, but in talking with him, yes, there is some progress there. I cannot exactly tell you where it is at, but there is some movement there. There are still some politically sensitive issues there, but we are moving ahead.
Senator Raine: In one of our last meetings we had testimony from a woman who has done many studies with the Department of Law and Legal Studies at Carleton, based on her research on Aboriginal communities. She spoke particularly about restorative justice initiatives and felt they do not provide a solution to the problem of Aboriginal overrepresentation in the criminal justice system.
Subsequent to that we heard from another witness who talked about the Department of Justice programs that are available. It seems to me there are probably not enough of them: they are small programs. They are all individual programs, but they are doing very well.
I agree with what the National Chief said when he said there is no one size that fits all. These solutions have to come from the community level up.
At the AFN, are you watching for programs at the community level that are working and then spreading the word? I think that is the wonderful thing about the AFN: you talk to each other, find out what is happening in your regions and you can sort of cross-pollinate. Is that happening? Is there anything we can do to speed it up?
Mr. Augustine: As regional chiefs, most of us live in our communities, so we see all these things. We report back what our local chiefs ask us to report. Basically, in our community, one of the things we need to do is evaluate everything that has been done in the past.
Restorative justice is one aspect. They had other circles they talked about in terms of justice circles and sentencing circles. Those things were done in different areas. Some succeeded and some did not. Now is the time to revisit everything.
In talking with one of my sons who works at one of the institutions, I asked him if cultural awareness was working in this prison. He said no. He said some of the prisoners just use it to take some time off, and he tells me he is not sure if they are working.
My brother, who was a police officer for our First Nation for years and years, now works in that field. He believes it is working. He believes and has some faith that we are reaching some of the native inmates through the sweat ceremonies and talking circles. They are different stories: there are some successful ones and some not so successful. In this case, where I am from, it is 50-50, I would think.
One thing that is really important to address here today, senator, is First Nations policing. That is one thing that was strong when I was chief and I truly believe that was the right process. I know some changes were made in some policies and it did not really work well for the community. However, today, the RCMP, with their budget restraints, is not servicing communities. My community is small.
For example, the population of Burnt Church First Nation is 2,000, so there are about 5,000 First Nations people within a 100-mile radius. The police force in one of the communities is RCMP and First Nations RCMP, and that seems to be working. In other communities, that is not the case, even though some of the RCMP now are First Nations. I have three, I think, from my community who are RCMP, but they are devoted and loyal to the commission. They are not loyal to the chief and council. We need to address that down the road. I do not know how we will do it, but it is a serious problem.
I would like eventually to see First Nations policing right across the country. That is the true way of being able to deal with the cultural problems and cultural issues in our community. That is one way.
Chief Alexis mentioned poverty, education, lack of housing and the history, for example, of residential schools. We have leaders in our communities now who are residential school survivors. That sometimes can get very complicated.
Senator Raine: In looking toward more First Nation policing by First Nations people, what kind of training is available? How do they get the training and how are they selected? Are there people who have a natural talent for this kind of work? Are they being mentored and is there a way to grow them so they can serve?
Mr. Alexis: Thank you very much for the question, senator. There are several models across Canada.
I mentioned the CTA, for example. That is a First Nation agreement between the province, the RCMP and the First Nation of choice that wishes to have the RCMP as the police service of choice. They provide, for example, a community-based storefront office on the nation. Perhaps in some degree, the clerk might be a First Nation person. They go through any other process that is done by the government where they have to apply, the education has to meet the minimal requirements, and they, too, have to go through, in some instances, the unions as well. They go through the regular job application process and they get the job
On the RCMP or policing side, the local province or territories, through their solicitor general's office, does do the benchmark, if you will, for hiring of police persons across any province.
They must pass tests like anybody else. Once they attain those tests, they pass the tests, in some instances, in Alberta, for example, they used to go through the Solicitor General's office in Alberta at the college. They have to go through five months of training and then five months of recruit field training in the field with perhaps an RCMP officer. They have to pass recruit field training. It is no different from any other place. It is a career path, and they must meet the benchmarks like anyone else.
There are several models out there and I just touched on one. The other one is self-administered police services, which, in my view, should now move to a level called ``essential service,'' and Chief Augustine touched on it. Community policing must begin with the community, and the community should have a police service of choice. If they choose to have their own police service, that should be honoured and respected.
Within the provinces, and I will touch on Alberta as well again, and perhaps B.C. where I served as a police officer, the provincial government contracts the RCMP for police services of choice. In Ontario or Quebec, that is not the case. There are choices, and that is how the models begin within the provinces, territories and, of course, the federal police force, the RCMP.
Thank you.
The Deputy Chair: Poverty was mentioned here and has been mentioned many other times in all the reports that are stacked up on our tables. I know there are communities that are well off or that are not poor. In those communities, are the policing issues less severe? Are there lower rates of incarceration in communities that look as though they are economically strong? Is there anything that would indicate that that has happened?
Mr. Alexis: I will try to answer the question to the best of my ability. Again, it goes back to one size does not fit all, and the same holds true across Canada. Some communities, although affluent, have high rates of crime. In other instances, you may have some poverty, but at the same time the crime rate may be low. It is a difficult thing to answer. That would be an important question to put within your mandate, in my humble opinion.
The Deputy Chair: Also, one of our witnesses really did suggest that the community-based approach was the way to go and that healthy families essentially were the backbone of your community. She also indicated that to have a healthy family, you have to have adequate and proper housing. If you do not have the housing, then you cannot have a community that is going to prosper and the members are not going to then be lured into gangs or drugs and alcohol. Is housing part of the issue as well, from your perspective?
Mr. Alexis: If I may touch on that again, Madam Chair, there are two parts. You touched on community policing as a strong component to all these discussions. The answer is yes. I was actually seconded as a chief of police to the First Nations police service that was in development in northern Alberta. The picture that I would like to present here to the Senate is that when you look at RCMP detachments, for example, RCMP detachments are located in the local town, not on the nation, for the majority.
We found that having the police service of choice in the community worked very well in delivering not only the police service, but also reduction of crime, community-based policing at its best, because the doors are open for perhaps the police committee to be a commission of elders and local people who vote and decide on the best interests of that police service.
Housing is a big issue because, if you do not have a healthy home to go home to, that is one of the big issues that we have. I have lived through that pain where I have never seen a home in 15 years. My mother never had a home. If you do not have a home, you do not have a healthy, holistic person. That is one of the things that really needs to be reviewed, because housing is definitely an issue in First Nation communities across this country.
Senator Patterson: I would like to ask Chief Alexis a question. The federal Department of Justice has an Aboriginal justice strategy. It is supposed to assist Aboriginal people to assume greater responsibility for the administration of justice in their communities, community-based justice programs. There seems to be some money available. I understand there was roughly $17 million a year in that program in the last five years or so. Would you have any comments about that program and whether it is effective or could be made more effective?
Mr. Alexis: I am not totally familiar with all the programs that exist right now in justice. However, I would like to point out one thing, if I may. We did put a proposal to the respected minister a few years ago relative to Aboriginal gangs in this country. Our proposal was not accepted. That was with two provinces and one territory. No reasons were ever given as to why that proposal was not accepted.
Having said that, in my humble opinion, these proposal-driven initiatives need to be examined because some communities do not have the writers to do a bang-on, hit-the-pillars proposal. If you do not hit the pillars of the proposal, you will not get the funding. Those things need to be examined as well.
Since 1991, going back to RCAP, if I may, there have been programs that have worked and others that have not. You mentioned it yourself. I am glad you are going to look into that because it is crucial.
On the issue of justice, sometimes the overarching responsibilities of individual federal institutions, for example, do not always connect and that needs to be examined.
Senator Patterson: The other thing is that sometimes a program gets developed, like the gang-related program you mentioned, but it does not fit the criteria of the federal program. That is important information you gave us and maybe something we should look into.
I would like to ask another question, if I may, again, of Chief Alexis.
I understand that last year there was a national justice forum convened by the AFN to work on developing a national Aboriginal justice strategy. Could you comment on where that stands and what came out of that work, which I understand brought Aboriginal people together from across the country.
Mr. Alexis: That is a good question. I was not at that forum because of emerging issues in my community, so I was not privy to those discussions. I am sorry about that.
Senator Patterson: That is fine.
The Deputy Chair: There being no further questions for our witnesses, I would like to thank you for appearing this evening. You have painted a picture that we have known of for many years. We have numerous reports on the pressing issues. The National Chief left us with an overarching question: What has prevented us from getting the job done?
We thank you.
(The committee adjourned.)