Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Aboriginal Peoples
Issue 38 - Evidence - June 4, 2013
OTTAWA, Tuesday, June 4, 2013
The Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples met this day at 9:37 a.m. to examine and report on the federal government's constitutional, treaty, political and legal responsibilities to First Nations, Inuit and Metis peoples, and on other matters generally relating to the Aboriginal Peoples of Canada.
Senator Vernon White (Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Chair: Good morning. I would like to welcome all honourable senators and members of the public who are watching this meeting of the Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples on CPAC or on the Web.
I am Vernon White, from Ontario. I am chair of the committee. The mandate of this committee is to examine legislation and matters relating to Aboriginal peoples of Canada. In considering what studies the committee might like to undertake, we, from time to time, invite individuals, organizations and departments to give us an overview of issues of concern within their mandate. Recently, we have heard from witnesses on the subject of Aboriginal peoples within the criminal justice system. Today, we will carry on with this subject by hearing from a representative of the Federation of Saskatchewan Indian Nations.
Before hearing from our witness, I would like to take this opportunity to ask the members of the committee present this morning to introduce themselves. I will start with the deputy chair.
Senator Dyck: Good morning. My name is Lillian Dyck, and I am a senator from Saskatchewan.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: Senator Lovelace Nicholas from New Brunswick.
Senator Watt: Senator Watt from Nunavik.
Senator Patterson: Dennis Patterson from Nunavut.
Senator Demers: Senator Demers from Quebec.
Senator Tannas: Scott Tannas from Alberta.
Senator Raine: Senator Greene Raine from B.C.
Senator Seth: Asha Seth, Ontario.
The Chair: Honourable senators, please help me to welcome our witness, Simon Bird, Vice-Chief of the Federation of Saskatchewan Indian Nations.
Vice-Chief Bird, we look forward to your presentation, which will be followed by questions from the senators. Please proceed, and, again, thank you very much for coming today.
Simon Bird, Vice Chief, Federation of Saskatchewan Indian Nations: Thank you very much. I want to say, first, our greetings in my own language.
[Editor's Note: Mr. Bird spoke in Cree.]
What I said was that it is an honour to be here before you to speak on such an important issue. I acknowledge our Creator for giving us the opportunity to be able to gather like this today.
With that, I will not spend too much time with the greetings. I hold the portfolio for justice as the vice-chief for the Federation of Saskatchewan Indian Nations, representing 74 First Nations in Saskatchewan. I have a background in education. I am a teacher by profession. I have my Masters in education, and I have really gotten to spend a lot of time in First Nations' communities, in First Nations' schools and among First Nations elders, so my experience in justice is just that, with our elders and our communities. We have excellent staff members who serve us as the executive, and so this is the material that we have prepared.
Once again, thank you for this opportunity to present the First Nations' perspective about some of the reasons for our over-representation in the Canadian criminal justice system and to provide some solutions in response to this major problem.
In a province of 1 million people, Saskatchewan First Nations make up 13 per cent of the population but 60 per cent of the incarcerated population. These alarming statistics show that more First Nations are entrenched in the criminal justice system than in post-secondary education in Canada.
Also, Statistics Canada predicts that First Nation incarceration will increase further by 2017, due to the Criminal Code amendments and mandatory sentencing provisions imposed by the Safe Streets and Communities Act passed last year.
The record of studies, reports and academic papers has changed little in the way that First Nations interact with the criminal justice system. Some recommend tinkering with the current system, but few go as far as the 1983 Penner Report and the 1996 RCAP Report. The Penner Report noted the need for a new relationship but strongly stated the pitfalls of building a relationship through the Department of Indian Affairs, which had too much control in all aspects of First Nations lives. RCAP set the stage for a new relationship, based on past experience, present conditions and hope for the future.
This country was built on the treaty covenant of the 1870s that was intended to be a relationship of mutual respect and coexistence. This type of relationship did not develop. Rather, our lives were disrupted, and the impacts of our colonial experience continue to be evident today. The experiences of our families and communities are rooted in cultural genocide and oppression. Oppressive measures were implemented through: the residential school system, where children were forcibly removed from family; the Indian Act that controlled our lives from birth to death and displaced our laws and governance structures; the denial of our collective right to live in freedom, peace and security; and the criminalization of our traditional ceremonies and spiritual practices.
This history is held in common whether we are from a First Nations community or an urban centre, so healing and recovery from colonization are important steps in our journey. We must decolonize our thinking and ways of being and doing in order to rebuild a healthy indigenous identity in ourselves, our families and our communities.
The criminal justice system witnesses the symptoms of the underlying causes such as: substance abuse, violence, anger, revenge, alienation, poverty, marginalization, discrimination and despair. Clearly, the demographics that describe First Nations in the administration of justice are very much about the systematic controls over authority, power and resources that prevent growth, opportunities to thrive, positive relationships, ways to coexist and cooperate with one another and access to the means to earn a livelihood.
Positive change must begin by rethinking justice matters. Rethinking justice matters means refocusing on the areas that have the most impact on the lives of First Nations. These are areas of: good governance, lifelong learning, economic well-being, health and social well-being, which I will cover.
Governance, and justice for that matter, is about relationships, relationships among people, institutions, structures and processes. We need to deconstruct our colonial reality and rebuild our community-centred governance structures and processes that have worked for centuries.
This process begins with confidence rebuilding, knowing that our legal traditions and customary laws are the cultural fit that is required to develop a collective vision for creating a movement for social change. It is a well-known fact that societies that govern well do better economically, socially, politically and culturally.
How do we organize for social change? We set our priorities, justice being one of them; engage our peoples for priority setting and community mobilization; and develop our plans for the future. The communities understand their own issues and must be engaged in solution development processes. Organizing for change is a long-term process that cannot be dictated from the outside or through a top-down approach. This rebuilding process is community rebuilding from the inside out.
The second area of this discussion is education. Everyone is part of the learning process, which must take place within a respectful and open environment where we acknowledge that shared learning experiences are the basis for community and capacity development. Our indigenous languages are critical to understanding and maintaining the relationship teachings that emphasize the importance of discipline, respecting personal boundaries and developing the skills to live healthy lifestyles within our families and communities.
Good schools and post-secondary institutions are absolutely essential for organized social change. The elimination of barriers must be built into the relationship permanently. These barriers do not go away by themselves. The media plays a large role in how First Nations are portrayed and what people learn about First Nations people. Better communication and working relationships will provide balanced media coverage.
The third factor is economic well-being that maintains self respect, dignity and self worth and promotes prosperity. Gaining prosperity requires an economic base that includes our traditional economies, the sharing of the natural resources with this country and sustained development. The removal of systemic barriers will provide equitable employment opportunities and create long lasting change.
Increased community employment, career options for youth and personal development will enhance community economic well-being, give hope to our peoples and ensure First Nation participation in the economy, a right of every citizen.
The fourth area to consider is health and social well-being. Community capacity rebuilding is related directly to health, healing, economic and social well-being of First Nations, the ability to govern and contribute to the community, to have healthy relationships, and to live in peace. Freedom and security are related directly to the health of a nation. Adequate housing is a top priority for First Nations to have stable, safe and secure living environments, to build confidence and self-worth and to increase living standards. Adequate shelter positively affects children's learning abilities and access to employment opportunities.
The four areas outlined place emphasis on building people and healthy communities rather than on punitive, retributive and condemning judgments. This is the First Nations' quest for just relationships in the long term. The rebuilding process is time- and resource-intensive but will bring lasting change for the future health of our peoples and communities. Maintaining peace and order includes the responsibility of building strong, stable institutions. An institutional focus for an effective First Nations' just relations system must include the restoration of First Nations' traditional forms of justice and peace-making methods. Governments need to support our indigenous peacekeepers on the ground so they can appropriately fill the gap in the current policing services delivered to our communities. Peacekeepers for First Nations must be relevant to the needs of those they serve.
Entry into the criminal justice system begins with the police. Peacekeepers have a major role in maintaining peace and order within our communities and working with the police in a collaborative and supportive environment. The Federation of Saskatchewan Indian Nations signed a protocol agreement in June 2012 with the goal of resolving disputes at the First Nation community level and preventing incidents that can potentially escalate into conflict situations. The protocol is a significant step toward rebuilding relationships between the RCMP and First Nations. However, referrals and the discretionary powers of police and the courts have yet to be understood mutually. It should be the responsibility of all parties to work mutually toward community involvement.
A peacemaker tribunal is another peace-making institution that offers a less formal and adversarial process to resolve community issues, and has flexibility for resolution. This type of tribunal will provide an intervention vehicle that essentially must be developed from the inside out. When a person engages in negative behaviour, the law has been breached and the relationship must be restored. Approaches must change so that prevention-based investments and intervention strategies, such as developing peacemaker tribunals, stem from the communities in implementing intervention vehicles, such as the peacemaker tribunal. Understanding indigenous cultures is critical. All issues are integrally linked and must be dealt with in relation to one another.
I will now returning to the subject of community. The entire community is affected when our citizens are incarcerated whether they enter provincial or federal correctional facilities. Law enforcement people arrest and re- arrest the same individuals in their jurisdictions. Despite the huge investment in enforcement and court and corrections resources, current spending is not reducing First Nation recidivism rates. We need to create viable options to assist individuals in overcoming the systemic barriers when returning to the community. Our Indian Justice Commission approved our participation in a multi-stakeholder group that is attempting to leverage resources and deliver cost- effective solutions that would support the successful reintegration of First Nation offenders. This is a fiscally responsible effort.
The Supreme Court of Canada acknowledged that First Nations were overrepresented in the criminal justice system and legislatively implemented section 718.2(e) of the Criminal Code, which:
. . . instructs judges to look at all reasonable alternatives to jail for all offenders and to pay particular attention to the circumstances of Aboriginal offenders.
Twenty years have lapsed but the incarceration and recidivism rates for First Nations have not decreased; they are increasing and more jails are being built.
On the federal side, the Office of the Correctional Investigator Canada tabled its report in Parliament. The investigative report examines the use of the provisions under section 81 and section 84 in federal corrections for the period ending March 2012. It identifies some best practices and assesses the commitment of Correctional Service Canada to adopt principles set out in the Supreme Court's landmark decision in R. v. Gladue, 1995.
The investigation concludes that CSC has not met Parliament's intent for section 81 and section 84 of the Corrections and Conditional Release Act. CSC has had 20 years to address issues of relationship, trust and risk management in the implementation of section 81. Of all CSC's corrections strategy elements, the application and implementation of the Gladue principles appear the least understood and the most misrepresented. The report recommends the creation of the position of deputy commissioner for Aboriginal corrections to coordinate components of Correctional Service Canada, federal partners and Aboriginal communities; and that CSC reaffirm its commitment to section 81 healing lodges with elder involvement; re-examine the use of non-facility-based section 81 agreements as healing lodge alternatives; and partner with First Nations collective tribal councils, Metis and Inuit to develop protocols for section 84 releases into the respective communities.
Honourable senators, that concludes my report.
The Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. Bird. We appreciate having you here and hearing your comments.
Senator Dyck: Mr. Bird, you have given us much information to digest — a very good overview. Much of what you said emphasized the fact that the community needs to be engaged in changing what is happening now with respect to people being incarcerated and that community members need to be involved in setting up different systems, such as the peacekeepers that you mentioned.
My question will relate to the initiative with regard to the indigenous peacekeepers. You say that you have signed a protocol, and I presume that would be with the federal government because it is dealing with a protocol agreement between the FSIN and the RCMP. I am wondering whether this initiative was in place beforehand. It is a short time, but have you seen any success with the peacekeepers initiative? I know I am asking you a lot of questions all at once. Could you describe what the peacekeeper initiative is? In practical terms, what does it do?
Mr. Bird: The establishment of the protocol is to regain the trust of the peacekeepers, who are the RCMP, the police in our communities. As you know, last year was the start of a new indigenous movement that really brought a lot of pressure to our leadership and to our communities because the indigenous movement was borne out of a mistrust. Many people call it Idle No More, as an example. It is incumbent on us and critical for us as leadership to reaffirm the trust in our First Nations citizens that the police are not there to somehow spy on our people or to somehow just lay the law down. That is one of the primary reasons. It was a major event in terms of protocol signing, just trying to get back to the relationship that has been missing. One of my statements is that maintaining peace has to be on both sides.
Senator Dyck: To follow up on that, let us say there is a reserve in Saskatchewan. Does each reserve then have someone who is called a peacemaker who is actually an RCMP member, or is it something different?
Mr. Bird: That is something we are striving for.
Senator Dyck: You are trying to have an RCMP officer on every reserve?
Mr. Bird: Yes.
Senator Dyck: The agreement, then, would be between the FSIN and the federal government, Indian and Northern Affairs?
Mr. Bird: Between the FSIN and the RCMP.
Senator Dyck: With respect to that, does that protocol agreement include things like resources in order to make that happen or programs to train local First Nation men or women to serve as the RCMP officers on reserve?
Mr. Bird: That is something we are striving towards. One of the unfortunate things we have not been able to do is secure the appropriate resources. As I mentioned, we are trying to ensure that we reassure our First Nations communities that the leadership are pushing for something that our grassroots people need, which is a stronger presence of the RCMP to maintain peace.
Senator Dyck: I have a couple of quick questions to follow up on this peacekeeper initiative. Are there other provinces, such as Manitoba, that would have a similar program where there is someone based locally who can deal with local issues?
Mr. Bird: I am unaware of that at this time.
Senator Dyck: Are there examples in Saskatchewan? Are there any particular reserves that have started that initiative whereby you might begin to see whether or not it works and whether it is a better alternative? If it is a reserve near Saskatoon, for example, you would have to call in someone from Saskatoon. Is there a reserve where we do have local RCMP on reserve?
Mr. Bird: Increasing the number of RCMP within a First Nations community?
Senator Dyck: Yes. Do you have an idea as to how many reserves are able to do that?
Mr. Bird: I do not have the exact number, but I do know that in our last justice commission representing our 74 First Nations, appointed by tribunal councils, we had a presentation from Beardy's Okemasis, who were taking on a case, I will call it, with regard to a breach of treaty regarding policing. I have had an opportunity to sit in one of their presentations and hear exactly why they felt that the lack of RCMP or engagement in their community was a breach of treaty. They said it was because the time spent on the reserve itself was not adequate and the number of members within the community was not adequate. They wanted more preventative measures — rather than, after 10 complaints, the RCMP shows up at the door and takes a person away, trying to ensure that they work more closely with the community. The Beardy's Okemasis First Nation is actually representing more than 30 other First Nations as co- signers of this complaint because they feel strongly that there is an inadequate level of RCMP services being delivered on First Nations.
Senator Dyck: You mentioned that with Beardy's the RCMP would show up at the door. When the RCMP would come, what would be the major reason why they would show up? What would be the major complaint?
Mr. Bird: I am not sure at this time in terms of statistics and reasons, but I do know from listening to the leadership that basically taking someone away to jail as a last punishment effort is not really what the community needs. If there is a noise complaint, they would like to have someone go knock on the door and maybe just settle things down before they get out of hand. However, with regard to the leadership's description, after everything has got out of hand is when the RCMP would show up, and then it does not really resolve something but just take the offenders away, and we have the whole thing repeat as soon as the offenders get reintroduced into the community.
Senator Dyck: If I understand you correctly, then, behaviour could be stopped earlier before it actually becomes so severe that the person actually has to be locked up or charged?
Mr. Bird: Yes.
The Chair: As a short follow-up, does the peacemaker process include community members who are engaged with the police in trying to deal with some of the conflicts?
Mr. Bird: That is one of the goals. However, being new in this portfolio, I cannot provide exact details.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: My question is along the lines of those asked by Senator Dyck. You mentioned that you are trying to rebuild relationships between the RCMP and First Nations. With the cultural difference between the RCMP and Aboriginal people, do you think sensitivity training between the RCMP and the peacekeepers would be a go-ahead or a good thing to do, because of the racism and difference of cultures?
Mr. Bird: Thank you, Senator Lovelace Nicholas, for that point. Yes, I definitely think that has been stated from time to time. It is a trust factor. In my report, I have also mentioned a tribunal, once again, to try to resolve things inside the community. However, I think that having the RCMP have a better understanding of who they are dealing with will go a lot further.
I come from a Northern community called South End, Saskatchewan. It sounds like it is on the south end of Saskatchewan, but it is actually on the north end. It is very isolated, three hours north of La Ronge, for those of you who are familiar with Saskatchewan.
From time to time, we have RCMP members coming to the community, engaging the youth. They take the evenings to coach. That so much prevents the wall that sometimes the RCMP have with our First Nations people because that builds a relationship and is very conducive to trust. As you say, cultural training will go further, but the relationship needs to go even a step further in order to really understand our First Nations people in each community.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: The RCMP are given contracts in communities. The government had promised they would extend it for another five years or so, but then that was cancelled. What would the peacekeepers and the RCMP do for infrastructure monies?
Mr. Bird: That is one of the things that would be my job, as a — I do not like to use the term — "politician,'' to ensure we understand the needs of our communities and still push for what our leadership is asking for.
Senator Munson: Vice Chief Bird, thank you for being here. I would like to follow a line of question dealing with education. You described yourself as a teacher. First, what do you teach? Are you in grade school, high school? First, I would just like to get that, so I can ask my other questions.
Mr. Bird: In university, with middle years, I had an opportunity to deal with behavioural students from about 9 years old to about 13, and I have also had an opportunity to be a high school teacher.
Senator Munson: There is an old saying, "healthy body, healthy mind.'' Saskatchewan has the fastest growing rate of young Aboriginal people moving into the school system at all levels. What do you see when you see a child coming into the school system? Are you looking at a healthy body and a healthy mind, or are you looking at a troubled mind?
Mr. Bird: I think that all of those kids, especially when they are younger, have the healthiest minds that we can have. I think the problem comes when they realize that surrounding them is poverty. I think that is when it starts to get polluted, for lack of a better term.
Senator Munson: They are in school, and they are being taught to the best of your and your colleagues' abilities. For some reason, they are incarcerated; they are thrown into jail. It could be a juvenile institute or whatever it is. They are in an education system, and they are being taught. Within our judicial system — this could be a naive question — does education continue for that incarcerated young man or woman? Are there programs there that say, "Okay, you made a mistake. Now you are behind bars.'' Are there any programs under way in Saskatchewan or elsewhere across the country? This could be happening elsewhere; I do not know. Should it happen? Should the curriculum continue either with elders, others in the school or other educators within the judicial system?
Mr. Bird: To the best of my knowledge, it does. When I was a principal, I was also a high school teacher, and I had one of our young people who had gone to a youth correctional facility in North Battleford. Along with his cumulative file came his grades for the classes that he attended within the youth corrections facility.
Senator Munson: So there is a system inside the jails? Why, in your estimation, when they leave jail, are they back in six months or so? What is wrong? Where is the system broken? You talked about the repeating rates or a cycle. To me, there is not enough in terms of education and health and holistic approaches to that. Is it because of the communities they live in? I am curious to know some of the factors as to why it keeps repeating. It is kind of depressing to see some of your figures. You talked about how it is increasing, not decreasing.
Mr. Bird: I will refer again to this young gentleman that I had in my school, a very bright young kid. He just had very little opportunity to be able to grow up with many of the benefits that a strong family would have, as an example. This young gentleman, upon returning to the community, had to do some "community hours'' as they call them. Because of our smaller Northern community, opportunities to volunteer or to work are few and far between. Employment opportunities are lacking. Because we have one school, one gymnasium, the majority of the kids who are active in that particular community all enjoy something like volleyball. They take up the evening.
This gentleman, having an opportunity to go to the outside, is coming back in, somewhat on the outside of the "small society,'' I will call it. Because there is a lack of recreational facilities and a lack of opportunities to engage our youth, he tends to go back to the same group of kids who are more inclined to get into trouble because they are not able to be engaged.
Senator Munson: Saskatchewan, compared to other provinces, is a booming province. There seems to be a lot going on in Saskatchewan. You gave us the figures. I think most of us know about the makeup of the population — First Nations, 12.5 per cent. First, are Aboriginal youth prepared, with the education they have, to tap into the resource sector and everything else that is going on in Saskatchewan? Whether or not they are, are they getting a fair shake in being hired?
Mr. Bird: I will repeat the question so I understand it fully. Are Aboriginal youth prepared, with the education they have, to tap into the labour market?
Senator Munson: Yes, and are they getting, with what they have, a fair shake from industry to apply for the new technologies, to be able to work in various parts of the emerging technologies that are happening in Saskatchewan?
Mr. Bird: Let us go back to Aboriginal youth being prepared with the education they have. The education they are provided with is below standard. Coming from an educational background, I know that you have a tuition, as an example, that averages about $6,500 per child within the federal system, within a reserve school. You compare that to a provincial school that goes anywhere from $10,500 to $11,000.
The quality of education will be severely different.
Fortunately, I have been part of a provincial-wide consultation — the Joint Task Force on Education and Employment. I was able to go to Aboriginal communities — First Nations, urban, Metis — to ask the stakeholders, including teachers, parents, grandparents and students, what exactly is missing. All pointed to the lack of investment in our First Nation schools. Many of our Saskatchewan First Nations communities have provincial schools that are no more than five kilometres away. A parent may not realize that a First Nation is a have-not when it comes to investment in education. However, a parent will see that some students are getting extracurricular activities, high school-specific teachers in biology, chemistry, et cetera, while First Nations may have a recreational coordinator in the evenings and no football or soccer program. Parents tend to see the provincial school as better, and it kind of looks like that. However, many of our communities, with the little they have, are doing wonderful things. I would not compare apples to oranges in that circumstance, but the industry is responding favourably in terms of recognizing that Aboriginal students need investment so they can be prepared to fill the jobs. Is it good enough? No, it is not, given the lack of investment in education that we have currently and have had in the past.
Senator Sibbeston: Mr. Bird, do you feel that our society — in particular First Nations communities — is spending enough time and resources on dealing with the matter of justice for their people? It seems there is no provision in the Criminal Code for judges to consider community-related solutions. In my experience, restorative justice is the answer; but the initiative must be taken by First Nations and native people. White people cannot do it for native people. I have always wondered something: In our busyness and struggle to get on our economic feet and have good governance and so forth, does the whole area of justice get pushed aside such that not enough energy, thought and resources are put towards it? Do you feel that more could be done and that the responsibility is on First Nations because no one can do it for them? Can you comment on that, please?
Mr. Bird: Before I do, may I clarify who is putting justice to the side, in your mind?
Senator Sibbeston: I am Aboriginal, and I live in a small community. Things are in place now. The RCMP is a very strong force in the community. If anything goes wrong in a community, if something is stolen or someone is hurt, the first thing people do is phone the RCMP. The RCMP officer arrives on the scene and deals with the person. Either the person is put in jail, if it is serious. If it is not too serious, he is charged and eventually goes before JB court. The court system deals with the person. That is the formal justice system we have in place; however, we all recognize that it is not suitable and not the best way. The best way would be for communities to deal with the situations with the cooperation of the RCMP to do the investigation. Then, at some point, bring the matter to the community for a resolution, rather than just bring the person before a judge and have him thrown in jail or heavily fined. The problem is not that the person is a criminal. It is more of a social problem. With some help, he can be restored and healed to be a good person. You know what I mean in that regard.
Could communities not do more of that sort of thing, rather than just saying that it is a police problem and a court problem — let the White people deal with it? When I worked in the community justice area, I used to challenge the chief and communities and tell them: Look, do not wait for the White people to do it; do it yourself. You have the ability. You know how; so just do it. There is that idea of doing it ourselves and leaving all the dirty work to White people.
Mr. Bird: I believe you touched on something in that many First Nations have been conditioned to put that authority and responsibility off to someone else. I will refer back to education. Schools get the kids more than the parents get them at home. Role modeling goes to one institution. You talked about justice, and yet many First Nations communities have been conditioned to pick up the phone and dial 911 — the problem is over — not an issue.
However, I agree that justice definitely has been pushed to the side. However, that not only happens at the First Nations level. In our federation that represents 74 First Nations, we have two staff members from Justice. That says a lot in terms of the provincial and federal government priorities and what they want to see in an organization such as the FSIN. Recently, we lost even more funding. I believe that so much progressive and preventive work is done by First Nations; but there is a lack of champions with the appropriate authority, background and experience to be recognized by the First Nations as credible; and that buy-in is very important.
As you know, Aboriginal people started accessing post-secondary education in the 1970s, as an example, at acceptable levels. We still have a generation of people who are conditioned to think that when you have a problem, you deal with this or that department or this institution. It is only recently that we have been able to take on that restorative justice path, realizing that our First Nations have the tools for the problems their communities have.
Senator Sibbeston: Have you ever had a chance to travel to see the Navajos? They are a big group of First Nations who live in the Arizona and New Mexico area. They have always epitomized the way that First Nations or native people in our country could do things. They have their own police system and judges; and they have their own laws. They have peacemakers. I have always thought that is pretty advanced. They could be a good example. If First Nations saw that, they would be encouraged and maybe want to do the same sort of thing and set up their own system.
I think, Mr. Chairman, we should go down to see the Navajos.
The Chair: Is this your question or a preamble?
Senator Sibbeston: My question to Mr. Bird is whether he has ever had a chance to see the Navajos and, if he has, what he thinks of it.
Mr. Bird: Personally, I have not been able to have that privilege, but I heard a lot of positive things before I took on my role in leadership about the incredible amount of sovereignty that they practice in the Navajo nations.
I will go back with regard to your previous question to taking on more community responsibility. An interagency approach has recently been introduced into my community where you have staff members from the school, the health department and the band office. The RCMP is involved. Leadership is involved, as are local store owners and anyone who has a major role to play — for lack of a better word, institutions that contribute to the community. I find it a big success. In fact, I started to really learn that other communities are doing it. Prince Albert has an internationally recognized program that is basically an interagency program, which they call the HUB. I think it is being introduced in North Battleford as well. That is a good way of going about empowering the community itself.
If you do go to Navajo country, please invite me.
The Chair: I am glad you mentioned the HUB concept. I know that Deputy Minister Dale McFee is probably one of the strongest proponents of the HUB concept, and I think it will be a real success story. I was going to ask you about the HUB concept.
The other point that you made, and I think Senator Patterson was the Premier of the Northwest Territories when we policed Paulatuk, which at the time had two days of policing a month, and when we increased it to full-time police officers, I think the crime rate went up 700 per cent. Before that, the community was dealing with community issues in a community way. The minute the police officers were there, they became police problems. Nothing changed in that community other than the fact that a couple of White guys from the South were now living there. Nothing else changed. I do appreciate your commentary, because I do not think it matters where that happens. There is this expectation that the community moves away from solving their own problems, and it is not healthy. I think the HUB concept will actually make a difference, and I am glad that you are a supporter.
I had no question. I am as guilty as Senator Sibbeston.
Senator Raine: You both talked about the HUB concept, but I do not know what it is. Could you describe it a little more fully for those of us who are not familiar with it? Exactly what is the HUB concept?
Mr. Bird: The HUB concept is basically an interagency approach. In a community, you have different agencies, such as the education, the RCMP, local business owners, various community stakeholders that come together once a month and talk. Perhaps the RCMP will say how many drunk driving charges or break and enters have happened, or Health will come in and talk about there having been a spike in solvent abuse. Education will come in and talk about how there have been new students into the community. It is really a touchstone, if you may, or a gathering of community agencies to talk about not only problems but some of the solutions and some of the good things that are happening. Perhaps that could be the best way that I can describe the HUB. The HUB is a lot more in larger communities. Not only do they have volunteers but they have people from different agencies that have been seconded to make sure that they volunteer their time at least two or three times a month. It is a little more structured than what you would have in a community that has to rely on whatever resources it gets.
Senator Raine: When you have a HUB system in place, then, there would be more community engagement in the factors that are causing the crime?
Mr. Bird: It is not only the factors causing the crime. It is more the community members that are impacted by the crimes and that have a stake in the community. It will be to my benefit as a school to able to be engaged in this HUB just so I can hear what the RCMP is doing and hear what the leadership is going through. Then, when I deal with a child who broke into a store, I get to listen to the store owner and I can deal with this child with a better perspective. If I deal with social services, talking about the child's issues or problems, I as the school can take this further information, rather than a child misbehaving and you kick them out, not knowing that you are just sending them back to a repetitive pattern.
Senator Raine: Thank you. That was well-explained.
The Chair: I have a DVD from Deputy Minister Dale McFee, who used to be the Chief of Police for Prince Albert. I will share it with any senators who would like to see the HUB concept. It is in English only. It is a Saskatchewan piece of work, but I will share it with any senators who wish to see it. Thank you for the great explanation.
Senator Demers: Good morning, Mr. Bird, and thank you for the great presentation.
I have two questions. First, young First Nation women are particularly overrepresented in the correctional system. Why is this the case, according to you? What preventative measures are being taken in First Nations communities to keep young women out of the system, and what main obstacle do communities face in this regard? It seems there are more women in jail than men, from what we heard at the last meeting.
Mr. Bird: Thank you for the question, senator. As I stated, this is a new file for me, justice. In the couple meetings that I have had with leadership, this information was not given to me, nor was it prepared for my appearance here, so I cannot answer definitely as to why First Nations women have such a high representation in incarceration or what is being done to prevent that.
However, I can tell you that I have had an opportunity to tour a healing lodge for women. I have been able to learn in my tour, as well as from talking to the federal correctional investigator, that it is something that definitely works. You are removing a First Nation woman from what may be a hostile environment or situation and providing them an opportunity to equip, for lack of a better term. I have seen ceremonial rooms within this healing lodge and an opportunity for the inmates to be engaged in the community.
In talking to the leadership, despite the great opportunities I have been able to see of the inmates interacting with the communities, it was even more so with the last administration of that facility. That is something that they miss. That is something they have seen as a very progressive and productive way of healing our First Nations women who were in that facility, and that is something that they would like to see again. Unfortunately, for one reason or another, the administration at that time drew back the ability and the opportunity to engage in the community. I do recall our First Nations leaders talking about sundances and raindances and community feasts that they used to be engaged in in the neighbouring community.
Senator Demers: When you presented your exposé at the beginning, there was something that really hit me. There were a lot of good things in it, by the way, Mr. Bird. Twenty years have elapsed, and incarceration seems to be so much more than building more jails. Was it a lack of planned structures? To me, when you start 20 years ago, there should be a major improvement and the building of fewer jails. Now, you are building more jails 20 years later. To be successful, you have to have a plan. You have to have the structure. You can blame anyone around, but someone is just not doing the right thing to put these kids in a positive situation so that they are going to become good citizens. Now, we are building more jails. How will it be in 2023?
Mr. Bird: Your question is: With 20 years of realizing that we have a problem and continuing to build jails, what is being done about it? Who will do something about it?
Senator Demers: Yes.
Mr. Bird: I am just looking back at my notes as to exactly when and how I said it. I apologize; it is a lot of chicken scratch.
Senator Demers: It is on page 8.
Mr. Bird: Thank you very much.
Senator Demers: Towards the end, a couple paragraphs before the end.
Mr. Bird: Thank you. For some reason, it is page 5 in my notes, but I do see it. The Correctional Service of Canada "has had 20 years to address issues of relationship, trust and risk management in the implementation of section 81.'' Section 81 and section 84 refer to Aboriginal engagement. They refer to implementing the Gladue report. I believe that was in 1995. All it is talking about, if I am not mistaken, is a lack of movement. Like I said, I had an opportunity to speak with the federal correctional investigator on his report that was released two months ago — fairly recently — and he recognized that the federal system is dropping the ball in trying to ensure that the Gladue report is being followed and that every measure is taken to understand the Aboriginal offender before they have to be put away in jails. After reading an article about the Gladue report, I have asked the correctional investigator whether there is any substance to what I read in terms of Ontario and Alberta being the only ones trying to push for that recommendation. He said yes. In fact, those are the only two provinces that are investing their time in following those recommendations.
That is all that I can say with regard to why we are building more jails. I guess that is what you get when you have a tough on crime federal government mandate. We, as First Nations people, have always said that prevention will definitely do more than punishment.
Senator Seth: Thank you very much for being here. It is quite interesting. I see that, in Saskatchewan: "Statistically, First Nations make up 59.99 per cent of the incarceration population in this province.'' This says that, "Statistics Canada predicts that First Nation incarceration will increase further by 2017, due to the Criminal Code amendments and mandatory sentencing provisions imposed by the federal government. Prisons are playing an increasing role in First Nations lives, [which] will only intensify with the Safe Streets and Communities Act passed last year.''
Could you elaborate on what this means?
Mr. Bird: Can you repeat the latter part of your question?
Senator Seth: "Statistics Canada predicts that First Nation incarceration will increase further by 2017 due to the Criminal Code amendments and mandatory sentencing provisions imposed by the federal government. Prisons are playing an increasing role in First Nations lives, [which] will only intensify with the Safe Streets and Communities Act passed last year.''
I would just like to understand this better.
Mr. Bird: Thank you very much. I am glad that you brought up that very issue, the Criminal Code amendments and mandatory sentencing provisions imposed by the Safe Streets and Communities Act, passed last year is alluding to what I previously said, the getting tough on crime mandate is basically exercising the law more extensively for more laws broken. In my understanding, that is the way I can summarize it best. This also refers to what many of our leadership have said in the past. One reason we have so many First Nations people in our jails to begin with is because they cannot afford lawyers, and we have — I do not know what you call them — Legal Aid, the people who are supposed to advise you on the laws. They are basically telling their clients, "If you just plead guilty, you will save yourself from going to trial. It will be a lot easier, and you will go back to your community in half the time if you are found guilty by the judge and the court or the jury.''
It is a fast track to ensure that the poor and the underprivileged segment of a population will go straight to jail. If you have anyone who knows the system and who has money to pay lawyers, they will not be going to jail. This, to me, is what it says. When you have a mandate to get tougher on crime, that is only going to impact the segment that cannot afford lawyers, that are already streamlined into jails. That, to me, is what it says.
Senator Seth: Is it not damaging to the people who are incarcerated? The longer they stay in jail, the worse it is.
Mr. Bird: Yes, it will definitely have a detrimental impact. Our staff members and our leadership are saying that when you have a system that is even more fine-tuned to ensure that we catch the bad guys — I am a teacher by trade and tend to talk like this — then you have a real problem. You are putting more rules on top of the rules for a major portion of the people who statistically will go to jail and do not have an understanding of the legal system that is sending them to jail.
Senator Seth: What was in the Safe Streets and Communities Act that was passed last year?
Mr. Bird: I cannot explain that in detail; I apologize. The briefing that I had is basically that if we have more rules, we have more problems for the people who will definitely be impacted the most in terms of Aboriginal people.
Senator Patterson: Thank you for a very thoughtful and comprehensive presentation.
I would like to focus on one of the themes that you discussed in the justice matters section of your presentation, education, and rely on your background as an educator and as a participant in the Joint Task Force on Education and Employment, as I understand it.
This is a kind of Ottawa view, but a couple of important reports came out last year on education: one from this committee and one from a special panel created by the Minister of Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development Canada. Their recommendations would have dealt with the per capita funding disparity that you talked about for Aboriginal children compared to provincial education systems.
We have heard, since those reports were released, that it will be a priority of the federal government, AANDC and the minister to work on education reform. We know that, like you, the Grand Chief of the AFN has a strong background in education and has talked about making education a priority. It is all about developing a First Nation education act that would target federal funding to schools ensuring that it is focused on education and would lead to the development of a formula that might be better or fairer than the present ways of allocating money.
As someone active in Aboriginal affairs in Saskatchewan and participating in the Joint Task Force on Education and Employment, are you optimistic that a First Nations education act, which I understand AANDC is consulting with First Nations on now, would give us some hope in dealing with the lifelong learning theme that you talked about, which we all know is implicated in reducing involvement in the justice system? Are you hopeful that this is an area where we are making progress and agreement on priorities?
Mr. Bird: I am glad that you raised the point in terms of education. We can all agree that preventive measures are invaluable when it comes to justice.
I also want to state for the record, first and foremost, that I do not believe we need an education act to have the same amount of funding as the provincial school system has. It is just a matter of the priority of any jurisdiction that has education, namely, the federal system. With regard to Aboriginal Affairs consulting with First Nations, I believe that an education panel toured the whole country in less than a year. It is not consultation when you have the panel members trying to sell you on legislation. In my biased opinion, it is just a formality.
With regard to whether I am hopeful that the development of an education act would benefit First Nations, after speaking to our last assembly, it was obvious that many of our First Nations accept education legislation as becoming the new reality when introduced in 2014. They cannot see themselves fighting that any longer because some part of it is being forced. However, some First Nations are saying that since it is going to be coming upon us anyway, we might as well try to influence it in any small way.
That is not consultation. If you are going to treat a person with respect, you go to them and have a relationship. You do not say: "We are going to have a consultation; we are going to tour across the country; we are going to be in your province, so show up or do not show up; and we are going to talk to you about legislation maybe twice within the span of this education panel.''
The majority of our First Nations in Saskatoon on February 8 decided that this was not the way to consult and not the duty to consult First Nations, when you have a handful of First Nations preselected to show up on one afternoon. The morning of that so-called consultation was First Nations technicians and the afternoon was the leadership. I heard a number of First Nations say that if this is going to impact the children, then all 74 First Nations should have a timely consultation process. That is all that is missing.
I strongly agree that we need to work together — First Nations, the federal government and the provincial government — to ensure the end goal: a better education for our kids. We cannot fast track it. We need to work together in a meaningful way. I agree; and I hope that answers your question.
The Chair: We have other people on the second round, so respectfully, shorter questions and responses would be helpful.
Senator Patterson: Our committee, which studied this subject, recommended a First Nations education act, so maybe we are part of the problem. I do not know.
Education is implicated in problems with the law. The concern that we experienced, and we heard from First Nations leaders involved in education, was that the money that comes from Aboriginal Affairs for education goes to band councils right now and can be diverted to other priorities. The idea of the education act was to ensure that the monies allocated for education go to schools and students. I will just ask you whether that makes any sense to you.
Mr. Bird: I believe you are asking about financial accountability, senator, which is a very hot topic these days, especially with where we are right now. I heard a very passionate leader who cares very strongly about his community talk exactly about that. He said that we have non-First Nations governments that are not following accountability in finances, yet we have new laws that are impacting our First Nations people. Why are there two sets of standards? We can see that accountability in finances needs to be a priority for everyone.
I do not disagree that there are some First Nations that may take that opportunity to offset the cost of housing, for example, or some area of their community that is underfunded. In my short time as an educator, I can tell you that teachers are being underpaid because of the simple fact that education is underfunded. Schools are being neglected because of the simple fact that education is underfunded. If for some reason schools, teachers and the whole education system are being shortchanged because of band councils somehow siphoning the money, I have not seen that.
I am here to serve our First Nations governments, but top of mind is always the children of our First Nations people. If I see an injustice, I do make that point. It does not matter who I am in front of.
Senator Tannas: Thank you for coming, chief. We appreciate your presentation. I have a very quick question. Unfortunately, although I will try to make it about justice, it is about education. Can you talk a little bit from your perspective around truancy and your experience with the communities where you have taught and their response to kids not making it to school?
Mr. Bird: Any time that you have a young child or a student who needs that extra connection from home to school, it is a good investment. I have had an opportunity to work as community liaison in the city of Saskatoon. The parents who cannot afford to go to school really valued that a sincere, respectful person was checking up as to why their kids were not going to school. When you have a big school in a big city, you lose track of some of the kids. It is very hard to start developing a prejudice, saying, "Oh, this child is not there because they live in this neighbourhood,'' for example. Perhaps they are babysitting or whatever the case. It is not a poor investment to have extra.
First and foremost is funding — investment should be at the school — second, supportive measures to ensure that the school and the home have a strong connection. I hope that answers your question.
Senator Tannas: Thank you.
Senator Watt: Thank you for your presentation. Some of us do live similar to where you live. You live on a reserve. I do not live on a reserve but, in a sense, it is very similar. I am in the sub-Arctic. I appreciate the points you have raised.
I would like to put on the record what we heard approximately two and a half weeks ago from a Professor Jane Dickson-Gilmore, who made a presentation to us basically telling us that we were not really focusing in the right direction in terms of dealing with Aboriginal people across the board, whether it is First Nation, the Metis or the Inuit.
In her testimony to the committee, Jane Dickson-Gilmore, Associate Professor in the Department of Law and Legal Studies at Carleton University, stated that, based on her research of Aboriginal communities, Aboriginal communities and restorative justice initiatives, including sentencing reform, are unable to address the problem of crime and conflicts in the Aboriginal community and furthermore do not provide solutions to the problem of Aboriginal over- representation in the criminal justice system.
How would you respond to the assertion that the community and restorative justice approach are not effective as a solution to the Aboriginal over-representation in the criminal system?
Mr. Bird: Thank you for bringing that to my attention, senator. I do have the notes as to your last meeting, and I did catch that as well. I do not agree that restorative justice does not work. I believe that it has not been properly implemented and it has not been given the proper amount of — I would not say time, but an opportunity to show that it does work. I do think that restorative justice goes back to what I have always said, and I stand by what I have said: First Nations people know their problems and they know their solutions. Going back to the Chairman's point, in the N.W.T., before the introduction of RCMP, all you had was restorative justice. The introduction of the RCMP with the 700 per cent spike in incarceration just proves the professor's words invalid, in my view.
Senator Watt: In a sense, what she was pointing to was that it could work, I do agree with you, providing that conditions in the community have managed to improve themselves, not if the community is going to continue to starve economically. You talked about investment in school, and I think not only investment in school is required in order for people to catch up, so-called closing the gap. We will never succeed in closing the gap unless the community is made to feel that they are part of the system and they have full rights to enjoy the benefits that any other Canadian has. That is not the situation today.
I know for a fact that the First Nations do not pay taxes if they are on reserve. The Inuit pay taxes even if they are within their own category 1 land, per se, which is identical to reserve land. This problem needs to be rectified because our purchasing power varies right across the board. You are probably aware of that, even though you do not pay taxes. Maybe there is no chance in the community for an economy to flourish on that account so that the fact that you do not pay taxes does not make any difference in your lifestyle.
In a sense, if the committee is going to come up with responsible recommendations, not only does it have to make an investment in the school, but it has to make an investment in housing, provide access to good drinking water, and access to whatever is accessible to Canadians. We are so far from that.
Do you not think that restorative justice will only work depending on how you feel in the community? If you have to comply with a system that is not your own, that creates animosity within the community. That needs to be removed.
If that is not removed, I do not see a positive future for our people. Would you share that sentiment?
Mr. Bird: You want me to share my sentiment with you with regard to taxes?
Senator Watt: No. That is just the one aspect. It is not only the tax issue.
Mr. Bird: Let me try to rephrase your many sentiments. You talk about how First Nations pay no taxes; the Inuit do pay taxes. The problem needs to be rectified so First Nations can realize purchasing power.
I live in the city of Saskatoon and own a house and have a mortgage, and I somehow do not pay taxes.
Senator Watt: If you are outside the reserve, you are supposed to be paying taxes.
Mr. Bird: That is correct. That is what I am saying.
Senator Watt: That is what you pay.
Mr. Bird: That is what I am saying.
The community feeling that it is a part of the solution is up to the community. As a First Nation, I believe you are sovereign. I cannot speak for all the First Nations at this point. Having previously held the portfolios of justice and education did not provide me with an opportunity to talk about taxes.
With regard to many of our First Nations who have signed the convention to the federation, they come from treaty First Nations. I believe the treaty First Nations have outstanding federal government treaty obligations that have never been fulfilled; namely, education and justice in terms of the RCMP. I mentioned the Beardy's-Okemasis as an example.
What you are alluding to is that fixing the problem can work in some parts of the world. However, when you have a First Nation that has signed on to a treaty, a covenant, it is up to that First Nation how they want to go about managing their affairs and their communities. At the federation, we believe that these First Nations are sovereign. I can tell you that some of the First Nations are doing a fantastic job of ensuring that they protect the little bit of ancestral land they have. The majority has been stripped away.
As a collective, those lands are an integral part of a First Nations' identity. It has been argued many times that when you divide that up to ensure you have purchasing power, you lose the sense of communal identity.
I would be very cautious to say that if you have the First Nations pay taxes, you fix the problem. It goes beyond 1905, with the establishment of the Province of Saskatchewan; beyond the 1870s, with the establishment of the treaties; and beyond 1492, with the arrival of Columbus.
That is an issue that only a community can answer, which is why the duty to consult is so important. When you have a relationship with a First Nation, perhaps you can have dialogue, but that is up to that First Nation.
Senator Watt: I go back to your point that you need to invest in education.
You and I believe that we need more investment from the government in the community, not only for education purposes, but also for the infrastructure requirement of those communities. Only then would I say that maybe the restorative justice issue would start to move forward in a positive direction, but it depends on how the community feels.
That is what I am trying to say; I am not arguing with you on the question of taxation. I raised the taxation issue to indicate that even though people on the reserve do not pay taxes, they still have financial difficulties in terms of purchasing power.
We have a problem in the Arctic that is similar to yours. Those people living on reserves do not pay taxes, because there is no money to be made on the reserve itself.
Mr. Bird: I have been to the Arctic, and I have friends in the Arctic.
With regard to more investment by the federal government, I do not think we are asking for more. I think it is what rightfully should go to First Nations. I think it is a debt that should be properly acknowledged.
In our era, there is no reason why a First Nation school should have less funding in comparison to the provincial school system.
Senator Watt: In a sense, rather than looking at it as a gift from the federal government, you say it should be considered as part of the royalties that you are entitled to. Is my understanding correct?
Mr. Bird: I am cautious to use the word "royalties'' at the moment. For that reason, I have to reserve my response, because I do not know that "royalties'' would be the appropriate term to use.
Senator Watt: Let us put it this way: You want them to benefit from access to resources.
Mr. Bird: I have said time and again that our First Nations need access to resources. We talk about the traditional economy. There needs to be a fine balance to ensure we have ownership of the land and are able to use it in a fair, equitable, and sustainable way with the new economies that are knocking at the doors.
Senator Dyck: To get back to the criminal justice system: In your presentation, you were talking about preventing crime. During some of the questioning, you talked about a youth who was being released from some kind of facility and had to reintegrate into the community. Are there any indigenous programs that deal specifically with or have solutions for reintegrating youth into the community once they have brushed up against the law?
Mr. Bird: Not to my knowledge.
Senator Dyck: To follow up on that idea, certainly reintegration of both adult and youth into the community is probably a big factor in decreasing recidivism or sending people back to jail. They just keep doing the same thing over and over again. My concern is with youth, because we all know that the demographics of the Aboriginal population are such that the majority of the population is under the age of 25. Do you think, therefore, that there should be a study done on Aboriginal youth to determine ways of preventing them from getting into trouble and reintegrating them if they get into trouble, so that we have an opportunity here to change things around? The education part will do it as well, but we also need a focus on the criminal justice system, especially for those communities where the likelihood is increased that they will end up getting into trouble. Do you think such a study would be of importance and worthy of doing?
Mr. Bird: I most definitely think so — any time we can have a spotlight, I will call it, with the Senate around the table as it has the authority to grant such a study. I would recommend and strongly support that endeavor.
Senator Dyck: To go off topic for a minute, since so many have, I will follow up my question of truancy. In my years of going to school, which were many, I was not truant. However, I recall when my older brother was in about grade 1 or 2 in North Battleford. He and his friend, who was the son of an RCMP officer, were picked up for being truant. That was my brother's experience.
The Chair: I am sure he appreciates your announcing that nationally, senator. It will be appreciated, so we will make sure he finds out.
Senator Raine: I want to go back to the protocol that you signed in 2012 with the RCMP. What is the vision of the First Nations in Saskatchewan for policing services on reserves? Is it the RCMP or what we in British Columbia call tribal police or is it community peacekeepers? You hit on the fact that it has to come from within to have peace, security and safety on the reserves. Could you paint the vision and the steps that you see going forward?
Mr. Bird: With regard to the vision of the FSIN, which gets its mandate from the chiefs in assembly for all 74 First Nations, you are right: Any time our First Nations can have a direct role in restorative justice measures, or, in this case, policing, it is ideal. With regard to tribal policing, some First Nations have taken it upon themselves to have their own security, which definitely lends to the overall vision of what our First Nations would like to see. If it is not possible to have a tribal police force, then they would like to see adequate RCMP involvement in their communities with adequate police resources.
Senator Raine: You mentioned that good governance is essential on reserves to have these kinds of things in place. As I see it, the HUB system is part of that governance structure. Many things have to fall in place. It is kind of like the chicken and the egg. What is the role of First Nation governance in directing restorative justice and policing?
Mr. Bird: It has to come from the community. First Nations governance is only the mouthpiece of the body, and the body is First Nations community members. Any time that First Nations members have the ability and authority to apply pressure to First Nations government, you have the best possible resource available to speak on behalf of that First Nations community in dealing with the police. Many of our First Nations communities have a policing management board made up of community members. Often, the leadership — the governance piece — is in place as a supportive measure. Many of our First Nations have that inside-out approach. It is something that needs to be implemented more in different communities.
The Chair: I have a lot more confidence in terms of how things are moving in Saskatchewan. I know the deputy minister there as well, and I think he is a strong proponent of successful communities. I also know that the commanding officer of the RCMP will be a strong supporter.
I truly appreciate your comments today and your frank dialogue with members of the committee, who at times were off track but you were good at getting them back on track. Thank you very much. We are adjourned.
(The committee adjourned.)