Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Official Languages
Issue 13 - Evidence - Meeting of November 19, 2012
OTTAWA, Monday, November 19, 2012
The Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages met this day at 5:05 p.m. to examine CBC/Radio-Canada's obligations under the Official Languages Act and some aspects of the Broadcasting Act.
Senator Maria Chaput (Chair) in the chair.
[Translation]
The Chair: I want to welcome everyone to this meeting of the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages. My name is Maria Chaput. I am a senator from Manitoba and I chair the committee. Now I would like the members of the committee to introduce themselves, and I will begin with the deputy chair, on my left.
Senator Champagne: Good afternoon. I am Andrée Champagne, from Saint-Hyacinthe, Quebec.
Senator Poirier: Rose-May Poirier, senator from New Brunswick.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: Suzanne Fortin-Duplessis, senator from Quebec City.
Senator McIntyre: Paul McIntyre, senator from New Brunswick.
Senator De Bané: Pierre De Bané, senator from Quebec.
Senator Robichaud: Fernand Robichaud, senator from Saint-Louis-de-Kent, New Brunswick.
Senator Mockler: Percy Mockler, senator from New Brunswick.
The Chair: Thank you very much. Before introducing the witnesses who will be appearing today, I would like to emphasize how important the month of November is for the Standing Committee on Official Languages. The committee held its first meeting 10 years ago this month. It held an organization meeting on November 5, 2002 and began its proceedings on Monday, November 18 of that same year. The committee was chaired at the time by Senator Losier-Cool, who has since retired. The deputy chair then was Senator Keon, who is also retired.
I will take this opportunity to mark the 10 years of work by this committee and to thank the honourable senators who have sat on it over those 10 years and contributed to its proceedings.
Today we continue our study on CBC/Radio-Canada's obligations under the Official Languages Act and some aspects of the Broadcasting Act. We welcome representatives of three organizations that operate in Ontario's francophone minority communities: Denis Vaillancourt, President of the Assemblée de la francophonie de l'Ontario, who is here with Peter Hominuk, that organization's Director General, as well as Marie Ève Chassé, President of the Alliance culturelle de l'Ontario, who is accompanied by Nathalie McNeil, Director General, Alliance des producteurs francophones du Canada. We also have, by videoconference, Nicole Larocque, President of S.O.S. CBEF, who is appearing with Karim Amellal, Vice-President.
On behalf of the members of the committee, I want to thank you for taking the time to share your perspective as it relates to our study and to answer our questions. Now I invite the Assemblée de la francophonie de l'Ontario to take the floor. It will be followed by the Alliance culturelle de l'Ontario and S.O.S. CBEF. Once you have finished, senators will ask you questions.
Denis B. Vaillancourt, President, Assemblée de la francophonie de l'Ontario: Honourable senators, thank you for inviting us to appear. Your study is largely consistent with the concerns we want to share with the CRTC. I will therefore get to the heart of the matter right away.
CBC/Radio-Canada is celebrating its 75th anniversary this year. The public broadcaster is facing many challenges in 2012, including budget cuts, emerging new technologies, competitive market conditions and the emergence of increasingly powerful integrated media empires.
As a community, we are lobbying for the public broadcaster to comply with its language requirements and its requirements to reflect of our regional diversity in Ontario. It remains critical to provide CBC/Radio-Canada with the tools and the framework that will help it adequately meet those requirements.
Weakened by this year's cuts of $115 million and the loss of $40 million from the Local Programming Improvement Fund, the LPIF, a decision that was condemned by the AFO, the public broadcaster is doing its best to protect regional services. We would like to remind you that the LPIF helped CBC/Radio-Canada maintain its regional presence and provided independent francophone producers, including those in our province, with means to produce more local francophone content that tells our community's stories. That was the beginning of new regional anchoring that benefited our whole community in Ontario.
I will now come back to points that are part of your study. The provision of services in both languages, the equal quality of services and the reflection of regional diversity are three aspects of the Broadcasting Act that concern respect for official languages. It is a matter of providing coverage of equal quality in both official languages and on all of the Crown corporation's platforms.
I would like to point out that our community in Ontario accounts for over 50 per cent of the francophone population outside Quebec. Our province is large, and francophone communities are scattered across it.
In television, our community has access to two of Radio-Canada's regional stations, and, in radio, we have access to three stations in Ontario. Three of Radio-Canada's regional stations generally do very good work, and our community recognizes that. Directors, hosts, journalists and administrators maintain a good relationship with our community. Generally speaking, the coverage is quite satisfactory. There are still some considerable weaknesses in terms of fair representation of our issues and the provision of high-quality francophone content that reflects our Franco-Ontarian cultural and linguistic identity. For instance, in Ottawa's edition of the Téléjournal, our Franco-Ontarian community and our activities are all too often overshadowed by news from Quebec. We are in fact becoming a minority in the region.
We have some questions about the future. Meanwhile, Radio-Canada has already announced its intention to review its role regarding certain ongoing artistic and cultural partnerships. With regard to that, the AFO agrees with the concerns of its members, such as the Alliance des Professionnels de la Chanson et de la Musique (APCM), Réseau Ontario and the Alliance culturelle de l'Ontario. My colleagues who are here today will surely talk to you about that.
As far as other platforms go, given the cuts announced on April 4, the regionalization of Espace Musique is still not complete. Regarding the Web and other multimedia platforms, in the Crown corporation's latest five-year plan, Everyone, Every way, CBC announced the launch of hyperlocal micro-websites in order to provide better coverage to underserved regions. We find it hard to understand why it is starting to test hyperlocal sites in two centres where linguistic duality is not in compromised: Montreal's south shore and north shore suburbs. Would it not have been better to do that in another place where the majority rules? We know that the Web 2.0 media environment presents enormous challenges. Consequently, a francophone presence on the Net is severely lacking. Members of Generation C or Digital Natives consume content and acquire information in a different way.
The Crown corporation must assume its role as a space that reflects a sense of identity and belonging to ensure the survival of francophone linguistic and cultural networks in Ontario and across the country. The corporation must be given the means and the framework to carry out this mandate.
Currently, the key issue obviously continues to be the presence of our community on network programs. It is clear that a different approach is necessary, since we need Radio-Canada's local and national programming as a vehicle for our community's expression. Currently, our presence on the national network is completely sporadic. That phenomenon contributes to Quebecers' lack of awareness of our realities. Our regional stations' content should urgently be given better coverage on the national network. The AFO is happy to see that the CRTC is focusing on that aspect in renewing the Crown corporation's licence. Currently, the Crown corporation is providing a Quebec point of view on the national network that is not representative of our francophone realities, at least those of Ontario.
Let us now go back to CBC/Radio-Canada's compliance with the requirements of the Official Languages Act. As a federal institution, the CBC/Radio-Canada Crown corporation must take positive measures to enhance the vitality of the official language minority communities and advance linguistic duality.
Regarding the first point, it is clear that, although CBC/Radio-Canada is a key stakeholder in promoting a better understanding between French-speaking and English-speaking Canadians and in establishing ties, the reality is entirely different. In Ontario, it is clear that our community is completely nonexistent as far as CBC/Radio-Canada is concerned. Things have to change.
Lastly, there is currently a debate on whether the obligations set out in the Official Languages Act also apply to the public broadcaster's programming activities. The Commissioner of Official Languages, Graham Fraser, believes that the Crown corporation's linguistic obligations extend to programming decisions. That is obvious to us. I would like to discuss the CBEF Windsor station's case, and my Windsor colleagues will definitely tell you about that. The morning programs in that region, including Bonjour le monde, Grands Lacs Café and Au détroit de la nuit, shaped a local identity. The loss of local programs especially has deeply hurt the development of that community.
The commissioner took legal action before the Federal Court in the summer of 2010. In June 2012, the Federal Court stated that the CRTC will have to consider the effect of the corporation's 2009 budget cuts on the region's francophone community in examining the licence renewal request for CBC/Radio-Canada and its Windsor, Ontario, francophone radio station. We would like to see that station back in our community.
Radio-Canada is critical for Franco-Ontarians' voices to be heard on the air. So it is crucial for the Crown corporation to better integrate the needs identified by our community when making its decisions. It also has a consultation obligation when it comes to that. The AFO agrees with the suggestion made by the Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne, the FCFA, to implement a formal national mechanism, coupled with formal consultations on a regional level that would promote accountability. As part of that mechanism, the corporation would demonstrate in what way it has taken the needs and priorities expressed by francophones into consideration. The current regional panel fails to meet our expectations.
I will conclude my remarks by pointing out that the Crown corporation's mandate is clearly to create a social link and, I would add, to create and promote linguistic duality, a characteristic that we believe is fundamental to our country.
In a multimedia, interactive and network-laden world, the national public broadcaster's role in the future will be even more significant than it has been in the past. This is an extremely important issue, and only the public support sought out by the CBC/SRC will enable it to fulfil that mission and remain relevant for francophone Canadians, especially in our province.
Over the coming years, the AFO and its members expect an ongoing commitment from the Société Radio-Canada to expand its coverage of our Ontario francophonie — in Canada's national broadcasting system — in order to maintain a Canadian Frenchness and promote the Franco-Ontarian cultural identity. So it is important to provide the CBC/SRC with the funding and flexibility it needs to maintain its power and remain the national public broadcaster of key importance for our francophone community in Ontario and the nation as a whole.
Thank you. We are now ready to answer your questions.
The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Vaillancourt.
Marie Ève Chassé, President, Alliance culturelle de l'Ontario: On behalf of the Alliance culturelle de l'Ontario, its members and our partners represented here by Nathalie McNeil, Director General, Alliance des producteurs francophones du Canada, I want to thank you for allowing us to speak to you. I am here in my capacity as President of the Alliance culturelle de l'Ontario.
The Alliance culturelle de l'Ontario is a provincial organization in the service of the arts which acts as a forum for exchange and cooperation among all artistic and cultural stakeholders in French-speaking Ontario. It acts at all decision-making levels to position the entire arts and culture sector in society. It supports the development and promotes the modernization of arts and culture through outreach, research and communication initiatives.
Radio-Canada is an essential institution for the Franco-Ontario artistic and cultural community. It makes it possible to transmit high-quality information to the population, to every citizen. It provides food for thought and discussion and helps expand francophone influence by making the community aware of the importance of the arts in French-speaking Ontario. Radio-Canada is an agent of collective identity; it acts as a veritable cultural transmitter and feeds the sense of living together that characterizes Canadian society. It is the main French source of news and entertainment available in the Franco-Ontarian communities.
In March 2010, as part of the implementation of the Community Strategic Plan by the Assemblée de la francophonie de l'Ontario, the Alliance culturelle de l'Ontario set forth the major challenges facing the Franco-Ontarian artistic and cultural community. Among their number, the broadcasting challenges were very clearly stated. The Alliance culturelle de l'Ontario highlighted our poor media links and the importance of maintaining and improving the ones we have. The absence of mass media is central to the issue of marketing Franco-Ontarian production and of that production's outreach.
At a time when communication is paramount, the Franco-Ontarian community is virtually deprived of its institutions, and a structure like Radio-Canada is essential to the Franco-Ontarian artistic community's development. In this brief, we therefore wish to restate the fundamentally important place that Radio-Canada occupies in the Franco-Ontarian cultural and artistic community.
TFO is obviously Franco-Ontarians' other major media ally, but the mandates of Radio-Canada and TFO are not exactly similar. Radio-Canada has a national mandate that does more to enable communication among francophone cultures across the country.
TFO, on the other hand, recently reviewed its objectives and now focuses more on youth programming. Although that is essential, it does not meet all artistic and cultural broadcasting and media coverage needs.
We believe that Radio-Canada contributes to the development and outreach of arts and culture in French-speaking Ontario because it works together with the community as a whole to promote the province's artistic and cultural activities. Radio-Canada establishes numerous partnerships with the community, in particular by signing major agreements with organizations such as the Regroupement des éditeurs canadiens-français, the Association des auteures et auteurs de l'Ontario français, the Association des professionnels de la chanson et de la musique, Réseau Ontario and Théâtre Action.
These partnerships have made it possible to extend the outreach of events and activities such as the Gala Trille Or, Contact ontarois and the Prix des lecteurs. Franco-Ontarian artists such as Damien Robitaille and Andréa Lindsay owe some of their success to the promotional work orchestrated by Radio-Canada in particular.
We support the new orientation of Strategy 2015: Everyone, Every Way, because it aims for distinctive and more regional programming for all francophone communities across the country, and we hope that wish is realized through communication with representatives of the various communities.
Radio-Canada's shift to digital technology has been welcomed by the artistic community, provided it does not become an obstacle to the corporation's mandate to offer programming accessible to all.
The allocation of bandwidth in certain regions of Ontario has raised many challenges, and we hope the proposed media and culture on offer are available to all urban and rural communities.
In general, we can say that Radio-Canada is carrying out its mandate. However, we also want to qualify that remark and to note some challenges and deficiencies that we have observed and to take a critical look that will have to be reflected in the new oversight of Radio-Canada.
We wish to emphasize that it is important for Radio-Canada to offer programming that fully respects regional disparities by gathering information and testimonials across the country.
There is still a tendency to give priority to information from Quebec, particularly from Montreal, to the detriment of many francophone communities outside Quebec, particularly in Ontario. The artistic and cultural community and the many players who constitute it are prepared to support Radio-Canada in order to develop a media offering that also reflects the creativity and reality of francophone communities here in Ontario.
We want to emphasize that the artistic and cultural coverage provided by Radio-Canada's regional Ontario stations is, on the whole, excellent, but the recent cutbacks have undermined Radio-Canada's profile and we fear there will be a decline in partnerships and media coverage of events in the regions.
We therefore repeat that it is necessary that these stations have the resources to carry out their mandate in full. They are essential pillars of the various communities' artistic, cultural and media vitality.
The alliance believes that there is room for improvement to ensure that the francophone communities' concerns, artistic talents and cultural issues are further advanced and considered by Radio-Canada at the national level. It is very important that Radio-Canada reflect the communities in its network programs both locally and nationally.
We aspire to a higher level of representation, particularly by Radio-Canada television. Ontario's French-speaking community does not yet enjoy the desired level of access to arts and culture on the national public broadcaster's airwaves.
The cancellation of the Local Programming Improvement Fund has only exacerbated the community's fears. We have previously mentioned that Radio-Canada has committed to broadcast many artistic events that are popular with the Franco-Ontarian artistic community. However, since the fund's cancellation and the spring budget cutbacks were announced, we have been afraid that there will be fewer and fewer broadcasts, particularly in the regions. We hope that Radio-Canada can increase the number of primetime interregional and national broadcasts of these events.
The Alliance culturelle de l'Ontario is concerned about the harmful role that the cuts to CBC/Radio-Canada's resources could have. We hope that fiscal restraint will not undermine the quality of information broadcast. The solely ratings-based approach of private broadcasters makes the on-air voices of minority groups virtually nonexistent. CBC/ Radio-Canada also has a mandate to let these numerically smaller groups speak out.
We would also like the conditions imposed on Radio-Canada to allow it the flexibility it needs to remain competitive in these times when audience fragmentation and media concentration are major issues.
We wish to note that it is difficult to strike a balance between granting flexibility and prescribing the conditions necessary to ensure that Radio-Canada fully discharges its obligations and does more to shoulder the responsibilities toward official language minority communities that stem from its mandate.
It is essential that the spirit of the Official Languages Act and of the Broadcasting Act be respected; that will promote the development of arts and culture in French-speaking Ontario and the vitality of our communities here in Ontario and across the country.
Thank you for listening. I am now prepared to answer your questions.
The Chair: Thank you, madam.
We now have Nicole Larocque, whom we welcome by videoconference.
Nicole Larocque, President, S.O.S. CBEF: Good evening, honourable senators. My name is Nicole Larocque. I am President of the S.O.S. CBEF committee, and I would like to introduce my colleague, Karim Amellal.
We are here this evening to represent the S.O.S. CBEF committee. For those of you who have never visited the Windsor area, I have brought a photograph. In it you can see Windsor's skyscrapers and, just opposite, the city of Detroit.
I am showing you this photograph to prove how close we are to the United States and that there is a major American influence here in Windsor, and also to show you how important Canada is for the official language minority communities.
I grew up here in Windsor, and I can tell you that there is a major American influence in our region. Most people tune in American radio and television stations and many go shopping and on outings to the United States.
The influence is so great that people talk about the temperature in Fahrenheit rather than Celsius. In spite of these facts, the region is rich in history, particularly in the francophone community. Our region was founded by a francophone more than 300 years ago, and if you walk around Windsor you will see that many streets have French names, such as Ouellette, Pelissier, Marentette, Goyau, Lauzon and so on. There are also a number of francophone villages around Windsor, such as Rivière-aux-Canards, Belle-Rivière, Saint-Joachim and Pointe-aux-Roches.
I am going to take two minutes to share our personal history with Radio-Canada and to give you an idea of the role Radio-Canada has played in our lives here in Windsor and in southwestern Ontario.
I come from an exogamous family. Although my parents came from francophone families, only my father speaks French. My parents therefore raised me in English, and I learned French, the language of my ancestors, at school.
I wanted to become a teacher in the French-language schools, but I had to improve the quality of my French. So when I was at the faculty of education, I decided to start listening to Radio-Canada radio every morning. We have CBEF here in Windsor, which I listened to every morning. I soon became familiar with the music. I can appreciate the artists' performances because I did not know French music. So I started to get to know the artists, I expanded my vocabulary, I corrected some of the anglicisms, and I was able to connect with the francophone community in the region and with francophone culture.
Southwestern Ontario has approximately 35,000 francophones and even more people who have some knowledge of French.
However, this is a region with one of the highest assimilation rates in the province, and I see that assimilation at work every day. I see my mother, who does not speak her mother's language and my cousins who cannot talk to my grandparents in their mother tongue. I am the principal of a French-language school and I often register children who come from francophone families but whose parents have lost their language. That is our situation.
Radio-Canada plays an essential role for minority francophones, just as it plays a major role in my life in helping me retain the language and culture of my ancestors and work in that language. This enables francophones here to listen to local news in French. Radio-Canada helps them learn the vocabulary to discuss current affairs in French. This enables them to stay connected to the regional francophone community. It is also a tool for the transmission of Canadian culture, which obviously reflects the two founding peoples of our marvellous country.
CBEF has been in existence since 1970. Several years ago, there were programs in the mornings, at noon, in the afternoons and on weekends. In 2009, a number of cuts had already been made and we wound up with only one morning program, from six to nine o'clock, from Monday to Friday, a contribution to a Saturday morning program and another program on Sunday night, as Mr. Vaillancourt pointed out in his presentation.
Since we had already had so many cutbacks by that point, the community was really surprised when Radio-Canada announced in 2009 that it was going to make even more cuts in Windsor. The decision was made to cancel all programs produced locally at the Windsor station.
I would also like to emphasize that CBEF Windsor was the only station in the country that lost all locally produced programs. All that was left was one program broadcast in the mornings from Toronto. Toronto is four hours away from us. So imagine what people in Ottawa would think if they had to listen to a morning program from Toronto rather than Ottawa. It is not at all the same situation. And as part of that morning program from Toronto, we had small windows of local content from Windsor, segments of 5 or 10 minutes, for a total of 20 minutes every morning.
That is when the community of southwestern Ontario got together and formed the CBEF Windsor committee. We tried to reverse the decision and to point out how important Radio-Canada was in a community such as ours.
We have taken a number of steps since then. We initially went to Superior Court to obtain an injunction to suspend the decision while the Commissioner of Official Languages completed his investigation. We sent a number of complaints to the Commissioner of Official Languages. You may have heard that there had been 876 complaints and that the commissioner has published a report on the subject. We are now settling these matters in Federal Court.
We also contacted several members of the federal and provincial governments and will be attending the CRTC hearings next week. We are trying in every possible way to obtain the services that were so important for us in Windsor. We have stayed in touch with Radio-Canada since the cutbacks and have tried to work with them and exercise pressure to improve the situation, and there has been a slight improvement. We now have one short 90-minute program per day.
There are still deficiencies. There is little local news because there are only three employees left at the station. Several segments come from Toronto, which is less interesting or relevant to the people in our region, and there is a major shortage of cultural activities, among other things. In short, the quality of CBEF's services is not equal to that of the services that anglophones have on CBC in Windsor, and many francophones in our region have turned to the anglophone media since the cutbacks in order to get more comprehensive news coverage in our region.
The impact of the cutbacks at CBEF has and will continue to be a factor in the assimilation of francophones in our region. Radio-Canada plays a role in protecting and promoting our Canadian culture. We believe it should take positive measures to enhance the vitality of French language and culture. If we want to combat the assimilation of minority francophones, all partners must work together.
I would like to add that the members of S.O.S. CBEF have been fighting for three years, criticizing the cutbacks to our only French-language radio station in the region, because we are some of the greatest defenders of French language and culture, and that is because Radio-Canada has played an important role in our personal lives as minority francophones.
Thank you for your attention to our brief. We will be pleased to answer your questions.
The Chair: Thank you very much. Now we will proceed with questions. Honourable senators, please state the name of the person or organization you are asking your question.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: My question is for all the witnesses. First of all, I want to thank you and congratulate you for the briefs that you have just presented to us.
I would like you to talk to us about the mechanisms that Radio-Canada is currently using to consult the francophone communities, as well as the participation rates in those mechanisms.
Mr. Vaillancourt: I have been President of the Assemblée de la francophonie since October 2010, and although there have been meetings with Radio-Canada's two regional directors here in Ontario, because Ontario is divided up in a strange way, and that is another issue, I cannot tell you that we have met concerning certain partnerships, but to my knowledge we have not had any formal consultation structure, and that moreover is a criticism we made to the directors, telling them to talk to the community before taking action. There was an outcry at one point when CBEF made the announcement. That is one of the things that my predecessor said, that if they had talked first, there might have been some solutions. The fact nevertheless remains that we stand behind CBEF Windsor. You heard about the problem from that community. To my knowledge, we have never had a formal consultation forum in the past three or four years.
There is a regional committee, which does not necessarily represent our community, and which consists of individuals who do not necessarily have any connection with the official organizations or networks, as a result of which the messages are not transmitted. That is my opinion.
Peter Hominuk, Director General, Assemblée de la francophonie de l'Ontario: In our brief to the CRTC, the AFO asked the CRTC to require Radio-Canada to put in place formal mechanisms for consulting the francophone minority communities, particularly those in Ontario. The AFO would be prepared to participate actively in that.
We believe this is lacking for our community, and we demand that this kind of structure be put in place.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: It is lacking.
Mr. Hominuk: It is very much lacking.
Nathalie McNeil, Director General, Alliance des producteurs francophones du Canada, Alliance culturelle de l'Ontario: The APFC, like the AFO, is not invited to any committee meetings whatsoever. However, I know there is a committee called the Panel of the Regions, which Radio-Canada has put in place, on which the Fédération culturelle canadienne française sits and which will also be appearing at the CRTC hearings next Wednesday.
It is very important that the organizations, such as the APFC, which represents producers, but especially citizens living in the regions, be invited to appear before these committees to provide an informed viewpoint and to bring their organizations' concerns to the attention of these consultation panels.
Karim Amellal, Vice-President, S.O.S. CBEF: Neither the S.O.S. CBEF committee nor our francophone community in southern Ontario has been consulted by Radio-Canada. They came here to visit us and give us the bad news, which was really unacceptable. As Mr. Vaillancourt said, if we had been consulted before the cuts were made, perhaps you would have found some solutions. However, they have not done that for years.
As Ms. Larocque pointed out, this is not the only cut that has been made. Some were made before this, and the community was never consulted. Ultimately, the director, Hubert Lacroix, came to visit us. I can tell you that this corporation's arrogant behaviour is unacceptable. We are told that the cuts will be made regardless and that we will be given a new format. That is really disrespectful of us.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: We may conclude from that that you are not being consulted, from what I can see. But it would be important to be consulted.
Mr. Vaillancourt: Yes.
Ms. Chassé: Yes.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: In your opinion, are there any positive factors with CBC/Radio-Canada, whether it be a context or a program, something that has been good and that you would like to see and keep?
Mr. Vaillancourt: First, some changes took place this year. We are talking, for example, about what was called local news integration. The network is handing this over to the local stations in Ottawa and Toronto. Windsor is not involved, but CBON in Sudbury is. The local station can integrate more local news with the national channels. This good initiative should be promoted further.
Notwithstanding the lack of consultation in recent years, we have noted that Radio-Canada has taken part in events and activities. We celebrated a 100th birthday at the Assemblée de la Francophonie. Radio-Canada was there and cooperated. That is not consultation, but rather partnerships that have been established. We wonder what the future holds for us, given the cutbacks and the LPIF's disappearance. It is important that Radio-Canada reflect this linguistic duality.
I like to say this, because we see on posters: my Canada is a Canada where linguistic duality is accepted and promoted by the federal institutions first of all. However, we are concerned about the capacity of the structures and funding proposed or withdrawn.
Ms. Chassé: With regard to agreements, the partnerships that have been established between the organizations and Radio-Canada are very important for our communities. They have made it possible to extend the outreach of our artists and craftspeople from sea to sea. The potential loss of these agreements could jeopardize many of our activities. Many of our member organizations have mentioned this crucial factor in the development of their communities.
Ms. Larocque: I would not want you to get the impression that Radio-Canada is something negative for us. On the contrary, we are here because it is a very important factor. I am talking about the positive role that Radio-Canada can play in a minority setting. Here is the service that we used to have. When we had a news room, we had employees and a number of programs. We had not only programming minutes, but also a presence and partnerships in the region. As Mr. Vaillancourt said, it was the mirror effect. We saw each other, and we got along with Radio-Canada, which was a pillar in our community.
So we can see the enormous contribution that Radio-Canada can make. Our frustration stems from the fact that so much has been taken away and we feel it lacking.
Senator Champagne: It is easy for us, the francophone communities and cultural communities, to think that, for one reason or another, we were the hardest hit, that we were really targeted when Radio-Canada's budget was cut. The budgets of all the organizations and institutions receiving money from the federal government were cut by 10 per cent. That is no joke, but they convinced me it was necessary.
For example, Canada's voice, the francophone voice and anglophone voice of Canada internationally, is called RCI, Radio Canada International. We are talking about a 10-per-cent cutback, but RCI's budget was cut by 80 per cent. Consequently, everything that RCI was doing for our artists internationally was hit hard. For a few years now, and perhaps not that recently, we have noted that all the records that RCI produced have disappeared. No one talks any more about all the awards that Canadian artists won outside Canada as a result of records that were produced by RCI here in Canada and that were distributed by our ambassadors around the world.
However, at one time, there were nine and a half hours of programming in Montreal, on the French and English networks combined, presenting artists — and I mean just classical music. There were youth programs such as Banc d'essais and Jeunes artistes. There were programs featuring well-known people performing their last concert or the program for their next concert. Those things have disappeared. These points are in the brief that I sent to the CRTC, that you may have read and that I will be defending on Wednesday when my turn comes.
Just to make me feel uncomfortable, when I left the station and went home, I turned on the television and there was an extraordinary program being broadcast on ARTV. For once, that network was true to its name. The program was about a Canadian pianist living in Venice who likes to play on a Fazioli. They talked about Faziolis, how they are built in Venice and so on. I said to myself, they have finally understood. They have realized the kind of program that ARTV should be constantly giving us.
You talked about a sporadic presence in your news. That is undoubtedly true. When do we hear about news from all over when a murder or a terrible accident occurs? There was a major accident in the Eastern Townships a year ago in which some children died. Radio-Canada sent reporters from Montreal to describe the scene, whereas a number of very qualified journalists were just next door in Sherbrooke, but they were people from the outside. That is the minority, especially in Sherbrooke, where anglophones are often in the minority.
These are things that I am getting ready to submit on Wednesday. I believe the danger for all of us, whether it is you here or the people of Windsor and elsewhere in Ontario, is in saying that they have something against us as minority francophones or because we are only artists and that is not important for them.
I am listening to you with all my heart and all my good will and I hope that, by working together, we will be able to turn the handle a little and open the door, that the people at the head of Radio-Canada will realize that we are not opposed to them and that we expect them not to be opposed to us. We want to open the door. You must know that I and my colleagues on this committee are working toward that.
If you read what I sent out, I believe you will see that, yes, all right, I mainly talked about cultural affairs; I will admit that, but I also do not want to see cuts made in the number of hours devoted to our artists, anglophone or francophone, whether they are from your region, or mine or elsewhere. I do not want them to cut that, for example, so they can put advertising back on Espace Musique.
I do a lot of driving between my home and Ottawa, and I listen to a lot of radio, including a program that plays recorded music. Forget about live music; there has not been any of that for years now. I used to produce programs of recorded music. I chose my theme and I went looking for my records in Radio-Canada's record library. We used long- playing records then; that was the medium of the time. They weighed a tonne. I wrote my scripts and prepared my timing. At air time, I was in the studio all by myself like a big girl. The producer and a technician were in the control room. Today there are 14 crew members: webmasters, webmaster's assistants, researchers, research assistants, technicians and technician's assistants. I counted 14 of them the other day for a program where all they did was play a few records.
I do not know how you view the 10-per-cent cuts, but I believe that would be one good place to cut a little. If three of us could do it 10 years ago, even though we were not on the Internet, do they need 14 now? The radio program Le cabaret du soir qui penche was not supported by 14 crew members. Does Jacques Languirand really need 14 people to produce his program today? They have undoubtedly created jobs, but they are shunting the artists aside.
Pardon me. I have done a lot of talking when I should be asking you questions, but I may have done one thing: if I have managed to assure you that you are not alone in this struggle, then I have done my job today.
Ms. McNeil: I would like to react to that because I find your comments on classical music and programming, on what is broadcasted and what is not, very interesting, that it is very much a matter of editorial choices. We obviously defend Radio-Canada; we obviously like Radio-Canada and it is very important for us, but I believe there are three major factors that are consistent with your remarks, senator: first, the implementation of the budget cuts; second, the end of the Local Programming Improvement Fund, the LPIF; and, third, unfortunately what is called the ``Montrealization'' or the ``Quebecization'' — I apologize for those new terms — of the airwaves, which are necessary and due to the fact that advertising is needed to generate good ratings. As a result of all that taken together, the content from the minority francophone communities, content produced by francophone producers, content made by creators, by various trades, individuals who live in Ontario, in Moncton or in Manitoba, that content is being broadcast less and less and we are feeling the full force of all these cutbacks and this implementation mechanism, which are necessary so that Radio-Canada can continue to exist. That, I believe, is what we are criticizing here, while supporting Radio- Canada and obviously regretting the cutbacks.
Senator Champagne: I mentioned the marvellous program I saw last night in which Louis Lortie played on a Fazioli in Venice. There are some good things. But if we go back to Singing Stars of Tomorrow, our future stars, we are turning to the private sector, where they manufacture rock stars who never sing in French in any case.
Ms. Larocque: I just wanted to mention that we produce the program like they did in the old days. We only have two hosts, not 14. In fact, one host and one director produce our 90-minute program every day.
This is not a competition to determine who is the worst victim of the Radio-Canada cutbacks. We really feel targeted here in Windsor. Radio-Canada submitted a table as part of the licence renewal process. They noted the number of hours allocated to remote stations and main stations in Canada. Obviously, we in Windsor are considered a remote region where there are fewer francophones.
I did not notice whether the number of hours of all the other remote stations in Canada had been cut or increased. The Windsor station has gone from 36.5 to 5 hours. The situation is different in the rest of the country. I sympathize with all those who have felt the effects of the cuts because I understand Radio-Canada's important role, but I just want to point out that the situation has really been extreme in Windsor.
Mr. Amellal: The government should realize the impact that these cuts are having on a francophone minority community. This is a disaster. It is really complete assimilation. I have two completely bilingual daughters thanks to Radio-Canada; they listen to CBEF every morning. I am thinking of future generations. We should be thinking of Canada. This is interfering with the rights of minority francophones. Are we putting a price tag on francophone culture? That is hard to swallow. As you said, we should have a debate; we should reflect, as Canadians, anglophones and francophones, on the future of minority francophones in Canada.
As Ms. Larocque said, we are not portraying ourselves as victims. Our region has been targeted, and a major tool that we use to function has been taken away from us.
Senator Champagne: It was Radio-Canada not the government that decided to reduce the number of broadcast hours of local or regional programs at the Windsor station from 36.5 to 5. The government cut the budget by 10 per cent but let Radio-Canada make its own decisions on the journalism side, for example.
The government does not say where to cut. No. If that were the case, it would be easy for us to express our opinion. I find it extremely unfortunate that a region such as yours is so hard hit. That is why I started my speech by making the connection with what is going on at Radio Canada International, which is Canada's international voice in English and French. Their budget was cut by 80 per cent. This is Radio-Canada's decision, not that of the government. We must not compare apples and oranges.
Mr. Amellal: I would like to raise one final point. Regardless of where the money comes from, can we let a corporation decide on the future of a francophone community without consulting it?
Senator McIntyre: First of all, I would like to thank you for your presentation.
My questions are for the entire group. I would first like to discuss programming outside Quebec on Radio-Canada's Téléjournal.
Two studies were recently conducted on the poor news coverage that Radio-Canada's Téléjournal provides outside Quebec. The first, commissioned by the Société nationale de l'Acadie, was conducted by Marie-Linda Lord. The second was conducted by a Carleton University professor at Senator De Bané's request.
In my opinion, the two studies come to appreciably the same conclusion, that the francophone community outside Quebec is given a low profile on the Téléjournal during prime time.
However, we have just received some good news. Michel Cormier, a native Acadian, has just been appointed director general of news services on Radio-Canada's French network. We have also learned that he has just announced the creation of two national journalist positions, one in Edmonton and the other in Moncton, New Brunswick. I think this is concrete action on Michel Cormier's part, action that could improve — if I can use that term — coverage of regional news outside Quebec.
Do you think that kind of position should be established in Ontario?
Mr. Vaillancourt: That is not even a question. When 50 per cent of the francophone population outside Quebec is in Ontario, it goes without saying that there should be one or two journalists assigned to that at the station. However, Senator McIntyre, if someone in Acadia, Ontario or Western Canada can be appointed, obviously it is fundamentally important for the critical mass that we represent to be duly represented in that way.
There are 580,000 Franco-Ontarians; that is not a negligible number. I live in the municipality of Rockland and am a faithful Radio-Canada listener, but I never hear about Ontario. I have to go to Sudbury to hear about that, or to Toronto.
However, the problem in Toronto is that Radio-Canada is on the AM band, whereas English-language programs are on FM. There are some problems like that.
To answer your question specifically, it is unconceivable that no journalist should be assigned to cover Ontario.
Senator McIntyre: As you know, Radio-Canada is appearing before the CRTC in Gatineau today regarding the renewal of its licences. Do you have any expectations in that area? If so, what are they?
Mr. Vaillancourt: We expect some improvements. We will be making just one presentation on Wednesday.
Our expectations regarding improvements to this situation are clearly stated in our brief. We are also asking the CRTC to require Radio-Canada to do a better job of carrying out its mandate respecting linguistic duality and to be a greater presence for the francophone community outside Quebec in order to raise the profile of the francophone community in Ontario and the rest of Canada.
I often travel the Ottawa-Montmagny corridor. When I am in Quebec City and tune in CBC, they have their news. However, in Montmagny, I walk in the street and people find it strange that I speak French although I come from Ontario. I am not recognized as part of a people. There is something abnormal there.
One of our expectations is that Radio-Canada, for Quebecers, should be a showcase for other francophone communities. The CBC should also be a showcase.
Bernard St-Laurent, whom you may know, has an excellent program on Saturdays, but his reference points are the francophone communities of British Columbia. An entire francophone community is being neglected. He does a good job, but it should be a cross-Canada affair. We should be talking about French-speaking Ontario — as you will understand, I have a favourable prejudice toward French-speaking Ontario — as much as English-speaking Ontario. Even though we talk about linguistic duality, we have to establish a francophone reflex. It should be a reflex, not an obligation.
I believe that my expectation of Radio-Canada is that it should be the showcase that actively and extensively promotes linguistic duality and raises the people's profile.
Just as I sometimes climb over the fence, I can say that the CBC has managed to do that. One of the key programs is Cross Canada Checkup. I dream of a francophone version of that program, a program where francophones across the country would speak to each other once a week. We have to speak to each other, but we do not do it. These are things I expect of Radio-Canada.
Ms. McNeil: The APFC is also presenting its brief next week, and I would say that our biggest expectation before the CRTC is obviously that Radio-Canada's licences are renewed.
However, we hope that Radio-Canada is sensitive to the concept of balance and equity. They say they are, but they should also apply it. Consequently, we hope that our content, artists and creators have a bigger on-air profile in the regions and nationally.
Senator Poirier: Thank you for your presentations. I would like to touch on one point. We have recently heard on a number of occasions that Radio-Canada is not necessarily meeting people's expectations regarding regional news. We increasingly rely on our francophone community radio stations for news in our regions.
I would like to know whether you have francophone community radio stations in your regions.
Second, have they taken over the role that Radio-Canada used to play? Do they offer a little news in your regions? Do you believe that is what we can expect in future? My question is for everyone.
Mr. Vaillancourt: I am going to ask my director general, who has extensive community radio experience, to comment on that question. I do not think that is the answer. Community radio is part of the answer, but it is not a reason for Radio-Canada to withdraw.
Mr. Hominuk: Thank you, Senator Poirier. As you know, the community radio stations in New Brunswick are very popular and receive a lot of support from the New Brunswick government, something we do not have in Ontario. Yes, we have community radio stations; the Ontario network has only six. They are located in Toronto, Ottawa, Penetanguishene, Cornwall, Hearst and Kapuskasing. They are radio stations that cover small areas and a large part of Ontario is not covered.
They do a good job, but they have very little in the way of resources. Community radio stations in Ontario are currently very vulnerable and do not have the strength of community radio stations in New Brunswick. There is a lack of funding. Among other things, François Boileau, Ontario's French Language Services Commissioner, recently published a report on the situation of community radio stations in Ontario in which he encouraged the Ontario government to support community radio stations financially. Community radio stations receive no core funding from the federal or provincial governments and survive on levies and advertising sales.
I think your question is a good one. Community radio stations play a very active role in the communities and have good audiences, but they have no news resources. Most community radio stations in Ontario have one part-time journalist, if they have one at all; some have none. There is even a provincial news service broadcast by all the stations, but, once again, it is broadcast two or three times a day. So there is still work to do.
I believe there could be partnerships between Radio-Canada and community radio stations. Radio-Canada is not necessarily established in regions that have community radio. We could even have partnerships to help develop content. Various models could be considered, but that is by far the best solution for regional news. Local news is becoming increasingly scarce in the world we live in. Even the big radio and television networks, even the newspaper chains, are increasingly cutting local resources. Consequently, local news, particularly for Franco-Ontarians, is becoming an increasingly scarce commodity. In recent years, the AFO has created a francophone media issue table to try to determine how we can work together with the media. We have the APF's media, TFO, Radio-Canada, the community radio stations and others around the table. We have tried to find common solutions to problems and to determine whether there are ways to help each other. We are really in the early stages. We think this will ultimately do some good, but it is not necessarily clear what the solutions are. And we do not think they will happen overnight without investments that may perhaps come from elsewhere.
What is really lacking in news in Ontario, and Mr. Vaillancourt talked about this earlier, is that we have very little interregional news. Southern francophones, who get relatively good news from Toronto, do not know what goes on in the Sudbury area, in the north or in the east, and vice versa. It is very hard to create, to establish ties among our communities and our various francophone regions in Ontario if we do not share information among regions. That is very difficult. Among other things, we have recently come up with the idea of a provincial Franco-Ontarian newspaper, precisely in an attempt to find solutions to that, but Radio-Canada should be a big part of the solution to the problem.
Ms. Larocque: I simply wanted to share. You may have understood from my answer to Mr. Hominuk that we do not have a community radio station in Windsor and that CBEF was really the only French-language radio station here in Windsor. For the francophone population here, listening to radio in French to get local news is really a compromise because you have to listen to the French station and get the news from Toronto instead of hearing local news from Windsor that we could have if we tuned in the anglophone media. So we unfortunately have no other options.
Senator Poirier: Do you see the sharing you referred to earlier more in your anglophone communities with the CBC? Do you know what goes on from one community to the next, from one province to another, in the anglophone communities of Ontario compared to the francophone communities?
Mr. Hominuk: Yes, I believe the francophone community tunes in the anglophone media to get that sharing because there is no such thing in French; it is not there. The only way to get it is from the anglophone media, but they do not give it to us in French.
Senator De Bané: Ms. McNeil, at least there is one piece of good news: the licences of Radio-Canada and the CBC will obviously be renewed because the national public broadcaster was established under an act. Consequently, the CRTC may impose conditions, and I hope it will think of Windsor as one of the conditions it could impose, and of the various issues you have raised.
Mr. Vaillancourt, one thing surprises me: you talked about francophones in Ontario whose mother tongue is French. According to Statistics Canada's figures — and I am citing the figures from the 2006 Census because I have not studied those that were just published — there are 578,040 people in Ontario whose mother tongue is French. In addition to those 578,040, there are 1 million people who speak French. Consequently, there are not just 578,040 of you, but also another million. So there are a lot of you.
There is one thing about which I would like to hear opinions from anyone who wishes to comment. And that is a comment by Marie-Linda Lord, who is a former journalist herself and who is now vice-rector of the Acadian Université de Moncton. She said something that got my attention because you mentioned your sadness at seeing that Acadian francophone minorities do not have enough presence on the Canadian national network. She said, ``What we do not understand is that, for us, who live in a minority setting, seeing other francophones living in the anglophone provinces gives us moral support.''
I never thought about that, about seeing that the guy in Ontario who sees a francophone from Manitoba or British Columbia derives moral support from that. I had never noticed that.
What do you think about Radio-Canada's argument that goes something like this: ``Yes, what you say is true; you do not have enough of a profile on national programs, but you do on regional programs.'' How do you respond to that argument, which we hear too often, that ``we have regional programs just for you, in your area''?
Mr. Vaillancourt: First, thank you for reminding me of that; Ontario francophiles have helped generate a very good critical mass. This entire issue that you raise is one of building our identity as a people and as a society and citizens who contribute to the vitality of our country. It is the idea of seeing ourselves regionally. You hear Windsor say that they hear themselves five hours a week. I am sorry, but five hours a week does not create the reflex or the pride necessary to establish one's identity.
If we see ourselves on the national network, that is how we will build pride and identity on both sides. I am in favour of linguistic duality.
For those of you who have read the Roadmap for Canada's Linguistic Duality, the Prime Minister himself says that linguistic duality is a national value. Consequently, the national broadcaster should make sure the country's francophone side is seen, not just regionally, and that the people of Sudbury see themselves and hear themselves along with everyone else. I am sorry but the people from eastern Ontario do not see themselves. We are a minority in the eastern francophone community. How do we solve this problem? I do not have the solution.
The Ottawa office has an extraordinary mandate. It must serve the population of Gatineau, Franco-Ontarians and also the national level, but that is another matter. It is important, and I support what Professor Lord has inspired in you, and it is a fact that when we see ourselves and realize that people are paying attention, that builds us up and enables us to assert ourselves. It makes us want to speak French and promote the other language to the other people nationally. This is essential if we are talking about linguistic duality and identity-building.
If we want to maintain linguistic duality in Canada, one language is not in jeopardy, but the other one is, and our institutions must work on that basis to maintain that heritage, which distinguishes us from our American neighbour to the south.
Senator De Bané: Are there any other comments on this response from Radio-Canada? There are regional programs where you can see yourselves, hear yourselves and exchange.
Mr. Amellal: We should ask questions about regional programs. The key words are really local content. I am talking about our young people who listen to our radio. We want them to listen to our radio. How do we attract young people who are always on their iPods and iPads, under the influence of the latest technology? Stop telling me that digital platforms are the future. Digital platforms are an influence, but there is still room for radio. When you are driving, or at home taking a shower, eating with your family, radio still has its place. Do not talk to me about digital platforms. Local content is very important because that is how we will reach out to our communities. It is when people engage in activities, talk about their athletic, cultural, academic and other exploits and speak into a microphone that their grandmothers and grandfathers hear them on the radio. This is a source of cultural pride for francophones. That is what we are talking about; it is not just the fact that Radio-Canada will tell me: ``You have regional programs.'' What do we mean when we talk about regional programs? The needs are there; we are not creating needs. Come and consult the minority francophone communities and you will see the needs. When funding is limited — the senator said that it was not the government that had decided on the allocation — as a manager, Radio-Canada must allocate that money to the most obvious needs to prevent the Canadian francophone community from disappearing altogether.
Mr. Hominuk: The regional aspect is important, but if we cannot promote our artists and what is going on in our regions, people feel isolated. It is very important to remove this sense of isolation. I am thinking, in particular, of the situation in Windsor or in southern Ontario, where a population is very much in the minority within an anglophone mass. There is one station and it is only on the AM band, and people are already less inclined to listen to Radio- Canada on AM. It is even more important to have access and to engage in this national sharing.
Senator De Bané: It is precisely this point that interests me, Mr. Hominuk and Ms. McNeil. What is going on in a Franco-Ontarian's mind when he watches Guy A. Lepage on Sunday evening and sees that 99.9 per cent of his guests are from Quebec?
Mr. Hominuk: That is not our television.
Senator De Bané: A journalist from Acadie Nouvelle wrote a very good article on that, saying it was time to broaden the horizon and that it is fine not to present just artists from Montreal.
Think about that when you watch that program on Sunday evening. Why not invite artists from your region or from other francophone provinces?
Ms. Chassé: That is definitely not the same thing. We were talking about identity-building. Yes, that is one thing; we can build our identity as Franco-Ontarians, but also as French Canadians or even, more broadly, as Canadians. That involves recognition and coming together as well. Obviously, if we always act in isolation, without opening up to others, we may well wind up on our own. This recognition by others is clearly important, and a form of education is as well. Since we are in a minority setting, it is important that the majority also hear about us and know that we exist. If people always talk about Quebecers on Tout le Monde en parle, obviously we forget sometimes that some of their guests are Franco-Ontarians, but they do not even say it. Sometimes that is not meant in an unpleasant way, or there is no bad will, but it is often a matter of ignorance.
If we always act in isolation, we will never resolve this issue. This is really important for us because, yes, we need to hear and see each other, but we also need to recognize each other and to see the issues of other francophones across the country and to feel that we are part of a whole and ultimately to expand the francophone space so that we are all part of the same society.
Ms. Larocque: Senator De Bané, you have touched a nerve here, and I hope I will be able to express myself clearly.
I told you that I came from a francophone family but was raised in English. According to Statistics Canada, I am not francophone, but I am a francophone in my heart. When I go to Quebec, I am always anxious to be able to speak in French. I go into stores and restaurants and speak to the staff in French. Most of the time, they answer me in English. And that breaks my heart because they hear a different accent and think I have trouble speaking French, which is not the case. I in fact work in French. That shows me that francophones across Canada are not known by other francophones because, if they knew us, they would respond in French and they would see that we are united.
So if we want Canada to keep its linguistic duality, we need a vision.
We cannot just put band-aids on the situation all the time. We cannot justify cutbacks on the basis of opportunity cost because I do not think it is a question of money but rather of priorities. And we, citizens, must have a vision. Radio-Canada is our tool for making that vision real. I hope that will provide some food for thought.
The Chair: Indeed, thank you.
Ms. McNeil: My colleague said what I wanted to hear. I would like to take the opportunity to tell Senator De Bané that I did not complete my remarks on the renewal of Radio-Canada's licence. I did not say that APFC had established very clear quantifiable and qualifiable licence renewal conditions.
Senator De Bané: Bravo.
Senator Robichaud: Thank you for coming to speak with us. We are talking about budget cuts. Ms. Larocque just said this was not only a question of money. I wonder. At some point, it takes money to provide services.
In the present situation, should we expect Radio-Canada to meet our expectations as the national broadcaster, as a corporation that, as Ms. Larocque said, must connect with the entire francophone community of Canada? Is this just a matter of poorly selected priorities at Radio-Canada? Can you enlighten me?
Mr. Vaillancourt: Here is a thought. If it is a matter of money, I agree with Ms. Larocque: there is a priority factor. However, if there were a consultation mechanism, we could have been part of the solution to achieving the aspirations very clearly stated by Ms. Larocque.
When a corporation enters a community saying that they have thought of the solution and that we have nothing more to say, that is a problem. When we hear the issue of priority versus budget, if there have been consultations and we are concerned about the national mandate, perhaps priorities would be stated differently, with a view to putting priorities forward in this national relationship.
It is clear in my mind that if there had been an ongoing conversation, we could have achieved and, in a context of fiscal austerity, could perhaps still achieve the aspirations of the community or communities and give ourselves a national presence. This very much goes back to principles, but when you agree with the principle, there is a way to prioritize differently. That would be a start-up perspective.
Ms. McNeil: Yes, that is a personal observation, but every time cutbacks are made, unfortunately it is always the minorities who are hit first.
Given the way Radio-Canada implemented its budget cuts, we can question them from both standpoints. However, the big fear, as I said perhaps an hour ago, is that the solution may be to do less because there is less money, and thus to offer less television or digital francophone content, even though there is a virtual absence of digital content from our francophone communities, and even to make cuts to radio, which is a file I do not know as well. That is really unfortunate, but we would prefer to understand the logic behind all of that because, in my opinion, very few cuts appear to have been made to the big Montreal machine. So we would indeed have liked to be consulted.
Ms. Larocque: Yes, I said it was not a question of money but rather one of priorities. It is true that money is needed to operate the machine. I obviously understand that. However, we have had serious cutbacks here in Windsor and other investments have subsequently been made, investments in the Internet, in Espace Musique and in opening stations elsewhere in Canada. We see cutbacks on the one hand and investments on the other, and that is the basis for my comment about priorities.
A little earlier this evening, we talked about programs hosted by 14 people, compared to programs where there are 2 hosts. We see injustices and it is true that the cuts are being made in minority areas where needs are not as great.
Mr. Hominuk: Senator Robichaud, you asked the question about cuts and priorities. The Radio-Canada people will tell you they have only cut 11 per cent in the regions and 89 per cent in Montreal. That it is probably true, but the reason why they have not cut more in the regions is that there was nothing more to cut. When there is nothing in the regions, there is nothing to cut. There is a necessary minimum in order to produce local programming, and when you implement cuts, there is nothing left.
The people in Windsor have had local cuts. When you look at all that, it means there is nothing in the regions, although you can use cuts as an excuse to do nothing more in the regions. Radio-Canada has nevertheless had some good years in the past 20. They could have put measures in place in the regions to come up with better programming that would respond more effectively to the needs of people in Ontario's francophone regions.
The Chair: Senator Champagne would like to clarify one point.
Senator Champagne: I must have been very unclear, Ms. Larocque, if you understood that there were 14 hosts. No, there is only 1 host, but there are 12 or 14 in the control room working on the Internet and doing research.
Ms. Larocque: Just to clarify something, we have a total of only two.
Senator Robichaud: I thought Ms. Larocque wanted to speak.
The Chair: That was just a clarification.
Senator Robichaud: You said that Radio-Canada has nevertheless had some good years. Was there more consultation then?
Mr. Hominuk: No.
Mr. Vaillancourt: No.
Ms. McNeil: No.
Ms. Chassé: No.
Senator Robichaud: That was never an obligation or a feeling for them that they had to consult the minority communities?
Mr. Vaillancourt: It is not my perception that that was the case. I must say we saw some examples of promising single partnerships, but I am not aware that there were any consultations on a strategy to support linguistic duality or the minority communities outside Quebec.
Ms. Chassé: No.
Mr. Hominuk: Even in the good years, when I used to work at TFO, sometimes activities were organized with communities, shows in the regions. And as for the sponsorships or advertising for some of the events, we even saw Radio-Canada really viewing itself as a competitor, often requesting the exclusive right to promote or broadcast certain activities. There is not always a sense of wanting to work for the community.
Senator Robichaud: You really question certain decisions that were made. We talked about the people in Montreal.
You mentioned hyperlocal programs. You also said that they had gone into a region where coverage was quite good?
Mr. Vaillancourt: Senator, my reaction to that is that, if one of Radio-Canada's roles is to support linguistic duality and we have new models to test, would it not be better to do it in a minority setting?
The French language is not in danger around Montreal Island. Some say it is, but I believe that is another issue. Why not at least experiment with one of the initiatives outside Quebec? And although Radio-Canada tells us it is a presence in the Quebec regions, it definitely is not in the regions of Canada.
Senator Robichaud: I understand what you are saying.
Ms. McNeil: Yes. We at the APFC have always drawn a distinction between the regions and the regions outside Quebec because we do not identify with that in the least. However, that seems to be a language, when it is used, that Radio-Canada understands absolutely. So, yes, Moncton is not Quebec City, Winnipeg is not Quebec City, and yet Radio-Canada defines itself and its actions in the regions based on Quebec City and certain Quebec regions.
Some very good things are being done, but we would like to have a higher profile, and I can only regret that what is being done in Ontario is not being seen in Moncton and that what is being done in Moncton is not being seen in British Columbia and that none of that is being seen in Montreal. I cannot believe Quebecers are not interested in seeing productions that are being done in Vancouver, Winnipeg or Ottawa.
That is unimaginable. This is quality content that is being confined to a kind of ethnocentrism that we can unfortunately only criticize.
Senator Robichaud: Ms. Larocque, you say you have noticed that people in Windsor tune in to the CBC and that you will be losing a lot of listeners as a result. You only have a certain amount of time to react and to get those listeners back. Do you believe that might be hard to do?
Ms. Larocque: Not only do they turn to CBC, but they also tune in to a lot of American stations because there are so many of them. We have already lost of a lot listeners and it will be very difficult to get them back. Our hope is that we can offer a quality service that is a presence in our community and that we can advertise it. That would really be a major success for our community. There would be a celebration and people would come back. That is my wish, but, yes, the damage is done, but I believe that we can turn the situation around.
Senator Robichaud: My best wishes go with you.
Senator Mockler: I find my colleague Senator Robichaud even more convincing. Ms. Larocque, continue sharing your vision because we will always have to take part in this major debate. As you say, the debate is not being waged just in Quebec City and New Brunswick; it is being conducted across our provinces and with the same national vision.
My question also represents a solution. Mr. Vaillancourt, you say it is outrageous, intolerable and unacceptable that you have not been consulted. As Ms. McNeil just said, the evidence is there.
The other part of the solution is that the community radio stations have a role to play, in particular by sharing or participating in programming. You also have to meet Michel Cormier soon. I believe you will have the opportunity to do that in Gatineau next week. I also have to say that I have spoken with people who are part of the francophone community in the Yukon.
I also spoke with people who held a general meeting here in the national capital. The theme of the meeting was Santé en français. Senator Robichaud and I shared information on Michel Cormier's role.
I believe we have an agent who is ready to listen to us. I believe you also want to be part of that consultation so that you can find a solution, since I am sure that, if you had been involved in the consultations, you would also have been part of the solution. I would like us to use this lack of consultation as a way of opening the door.
As Senator Champagne said, we must open the door for our community radio stations, pay attention and share Michel Cormier's information. My question is this: have you clarified the role that regional radio stations play in our francophone communities together with Radio-Canada?
Mr. Vaillancourt: Perhaps we can talk about the role we would like them to play, but if I am being asked to state the role of the regional stations, I must admit that, during my term, I did not see any documents that outlined their role. However, I can say that, as President of the Assemblée de la Francophonie, I spoke with the two Ontario regional directors.
There are two new directors, and we are preparing to organize meetings with the members of our artistic and community development communities. We start up conversations in order to come up with new ideas, and Mr. Cormier will definitely be on that list. And if necessary, we will go to Montreal to present our position.
In the case of the Assemblée de la Francophonie, we are clearly going there to make demands, but we are prepared to play the role and be part of the solution. We have always said that, and this is a common language that I use when I speak with my premier. Franco-Ontarians ask for things, but we want to be part of the solution. We have heard your suggestion and we are preparing to speak with Mr. Cormier and with the regional directors about the new announcements.
The Chair: Honourable senators, on your behalf and mine, I would like to offer our sincere thanks to the six witnesses who have appeared before us this afternoon. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for your presentations and for your full answers to the questions asked by the senators.
Thank you for your interest, which is apparent from what you have said, in making Radio-Canada a corporation that responds even more to our needs and further reflects our reality. As you have seen, all the members of this committee want to develop solutions that will make it a true reflection of what we are in Canada.
Once again, ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much.
(The committee adjourned.)