Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Official Languages
Issue 15 - Evidence - Meeting of February 11, 2013
OTTAWA, Monday, February 11, 2013
The Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages met this day at 5:00 p.m. to continue the study on CBC/ Radio-Canada's obligations under the Official Languages Act and some aspects of the Broadcasting Act.
Senator Andrée Champagne (Deputy Chair) in the chair.
[Translation]
The Deputy Chair: Welcome to this meeting of the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages. I am Andrée Champagne, senator from Quebec and deputy chair of the committee.
Let me take this opportunity to send our best wishes for a speedy recovery to our chair, Maria Chaput, senator from Manitoba, who will be back very soon, I hope.
Before I introduce the witnesses appearing today, I would invite the members of the committee to introduce themselves.
Senator Poirier: Rose-May Poirier, from New Brunswick.
Senator McIntyre: Paul McIntyre, from New Brunswick.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: Suzanne Fortin-Duplessis, from Quebec.
Senator Mockler: Percy Mockler, from New Brunswick.
Senator Robichaud: Fernand Robichaud, from Saint-Louis-de-Kent in New Brunswick.
The Deputy Chair: The committee is continuing its study on CBC/Radio-Canada's obligations under the Official Languages Act and some aspects of the Broadcasting Act.
Joining us today are Suzanne Campagne, Executive Director of the Conseil culturel fransaskois, and France- Emmanuelle Joly, Executive Director of the Fédération des francophones de la Colombie-Britannique.
On behalf of the members of the committee, I would like to thank the witnesses for taking the time to share the standpoints of their organizations as part of our study, and to answer our questions afterwards.
The committee has asked our witnesses to make a presentation of approximately seven minutes, after which the senators will ask questions. I invite Ms. Joly to take the floor, followed by Ms. Campagne.
France-Emmanuelle Joly, Executive Director, Fédération des francophones de la Colombie-Britannique: Thank you very much for your invitation. I am replacing our chair, Réal Roy, who had other business to attend to.
I will briefly talk to you about the Fédération des francophones de la Colombie-Britannique, which represents the entire francophone community in British Columbia. We represent about 40 member associations from across the province. These groups work in many areas, including community development, education, culture, health, the economy, justice, social services and communications.
British Columbia's francophone community comprises close to 70,000 people whose mother tongue is French. If we count the people who can communicate in French, we are talking about nearly 300,000 people. That is an 11.8 per cent increase from 2006 to 2011. It is worth adding that the 300,000 people represent 7 per cent of British Columbians. According to the last census and the various language divisions, French is the second most spoken language in B.C. after English.
For minority francophones, Radio-Canada is one of the few media outlets that provide news about our country in French.
Moreover, the province-wide nature of Radio-Canada is essential to the development of official language minority communities like ours. Radio-Canada is not only a source of information, entertainment and general culture, but also an important tool for promoting growth and development.
That is why, despite some gaps and weaknesses in the national network or regional stations, our community believes that Radio-Canada is a vital tool that must be protected.
While recommending Radio Canada's licence renewal to CRTC a few months ago, we included some specific expectations. One of these expectations has to do with the fact that Radio-Canada offers uncertain programming, given the cuts to funding and the elimination of the Local Programming Improvement Fund. We do not yet have the specific details because Radio-Canada was not able to provide that information, but it is really important for us to keep Le Téléjournal, which is the only local show. We have a one-hour newscast, which is one of the things we would really like to keep and we are afraid to lose it.
In terms of how Radio-Canada works, we would like to see a consultation and discussion mechanism in place. Radio-Canada talks to us and keeps us informed, and its staff members pay us visits, but it does not necessarily consult us on its various initiatives, projects or anticipated changes.
We would like to see a more formal mechanism for consultation and dialogue between Radio-Canada and representatives of B.C.'s francophone community. We also believe that two-way communication could generate original ideas and lead to more relevant services.
For instance, creating a round table or another consultation and discussion mechanism could enable Radio- Canada, in accordance with its strategic plan, to strengthen its regional roots and enhance its presence outside Quebec.
In terms of changing the national network programming to include more regional content, the situation is similar to that of our colleagues from Nova Scotia. Francophones in B.C. do not see, hear or read about themselves in the national network's programming, which remains highly focused on Quebec, even more so on the Island of Montreal.
So we think it is essential to boost regional content in the national network's programming to reflect the experiences of francophones across the country. We are talking about going beyond the basic coverage of events that take place throughout the year. We would like to be present in news bulletins and programs on a more regular basis and, thereby, benefit from the involvement of B.C.'s francophone community.
As recently as last summer, the program La petite séduction made its way to Maillardville and Victoria. This showed that content from outside Quebec can be popular, but unfortunately, it put a lot of pressure on our communities in terms of time and money. It is unfortunate that something that could promote visibility still requires communities to assume the full responsibility.
We would like to preserve Radio-Canada's mandate as the national broadcaster that reflects the entire country in all its diversity and helps create a shared consciousness and national identity. We do not want it to become a private broadcaster that chases ratings for marketing purposes.
We also do not want Radio-Canada to consider francophones outside Quebec as a lost cause. We deeply care about the vitality of our francophone communities and we would just like to be able to share it with more people.
So Radio-Canada could surely be a quintessential tool for strengthening our national identity by highlighting the role of francophones from coast to coast.
If CBC and Radio-Canada worked together more closely, they could cover community events from both sides and build bridges to promote Canada's linguistic duality. Actually, this does not happen very often and it could be improved.
Adding editorial content to regional programming would be a plus. The national network covered only a few important cultural and community events. For example, the review of the key events of 2012 included only a few regional stories and the rest were national events.
The problem is not that journalists lack interest. Their desire to cover regional events is often constrained by limited financial resources, which make it difficult for them to travel across the province.
So can we conclude that B.C.'s francophones have access to radio or television that portrays life in their communities? Radio-Canada could do a better job of conveying the implications and consequences of national and provincial events for francophones in our province.
Local programming should include more editorial content. It is a question of content. As to new media, Radio- Canada's website, including the one devoted to B.C. and the Yukon, is just like its radio and television stations. It essentially covers the same topics as any other station.
Certain important events receive special attention, but community news is covered only occasionally.
Social media is the way of the future, so Radio-Canada could and should devote more social media space to francophone communities outside of Quebec. This would also enable francophone and francophile youth to be in contact with Radio-Canada and to preserve their identities, especially in remote provinces like ours.
In terms of the requirements of Part IV of the Official Languages Act, Radio-Canada generally meets the requirements of Part IV of the Act by providing free Canada-wide service in both official languages. However, to uphold the spirit of the Act, instead of a strict interpretation, we recommend that its French-language content have a more national orientation.
As for the requirements of Part VII of the Official Languages Act, Radio-Canada provides highly appreciated funding and media attention to various festivals organized by the community. Nevertheless, for the reasons described earlier, Radio-Canada should clearly take more ambitious positive measures to enhance the vitality of our minority community.
To conclude, we would like to thank you for this opportunity to briefly present our views on Radio-Canada and how it complies with the Official Languages Act and the Broadcasting Act.
Given Radio-Canada's funding situation, we believe that it does a good overall job of meeting its obligations to serve Canadians, in both French and English. To encourage Radio-Canada to better reflect the Canadian people from coast to coast, particularly by expanding its regional coverage, we invite the government to increase funding for this public service, which is critical to strengthening our national identity.
The Deputy Chair: Thank you very much, Ms. Joly. Before I give the floor to Ms. Campagne, I would like to introduce two of our colleagues who arrived while Ms. Joly was giving her presentation. We have Senator Tardif, from Alberta, and Senator Pierre De Bané, from Quebec.
Suzanne Campagne, Executive Director, Conseil culturel fransaskois: Thank you for welcoming me and for giving me the opportunity to represent the Conseil culturel fransaskois, whose mandate is to ensure the development of the artistic and cultural sectors in our province of Saskatchewan.
My name is Suzanne Campagne. I am the executive director of this organization. This evening, I will not really talk about our history with Radio-Canada. Nor will I talk about what an essential tool Radio-Canada is for us; you have heard it enough. I know that Ms. Sigur-Cloutier from the Assemblée communautaire fransaskoise talked about that.
Instead, I would like to talk about the impact of the cuts to Radio-Canada's services on Franco-Saskatchewanian artists. These cuts are affecting the recordings of shows and important events in the community.
I am going to talk about Radio-Canada's disengagement, which seems to be inevitable and, according to them, necessary for dealing with the cuts that have been going on for some time. I would like to talk about the only future that Franco-Saskatchewanian artists will have if nothing changes in Radio-Canada's attitude and way of doing things.
I sang with Hart Rouge for 25 years. I was able to pursue a career in music around the world. I represented Canada in France, England, Italy, the U.S., Spain, and I always did so as a Fransaskois, always mentioning that Quebecers are not the only ones who sing in French.
I represented Canada in Russia and Estonia. I sang at the Sommet de la Francophonie in Vietnam. In a nutshell, I had a career and my dream came true. And I am sure this was only possible because of the support of my community in Saskatchewan and in Manitoba. I wish Senator Chaput were here today, because she could also confirm that those special recordings of our shows and the countless in-depth interviews with Radio-Canada enabled me to have the career that I had. That is what I think.
Before I left for Quebec, between 1978 and 1982, I participated in 16 thirty-minute sound recordings produced by Radio-Canada, and eight specials with either Folle avoine, Hart Rouge or Émile Campagne in cooperation with CBC. I did six national broadcasts of show recordings for important events in my community.
I became known in my community through those programs and interviews.
Folle avoine became known in Manitoba and we worked there for six years, through regional recordings with Radio-Canada. I also became known in Quebec through special broadcasts and, like my colleagues Daniel Lavoie, Robert Paquette and Marie-Jo Thério, we gave a voice to each of our respective communities by becoming known. If the artist is discovered, so is the community.
After 25 years, I went back to my community to give something back to artists, to inspire them and to encourage them to follow their dreams. But those Radio-Canada shows no longer exist.
It has been years since Franco-Saskatchewanian artists had any sound recordings in Saskatchewan.
Radio-Canada is moving toward information, computers and newsrooms, and away from so-called entertainment programming.
It is as if all those recordings, shows and interviews were just entertainment for our community. During his last visit in September, Mr. Lacroix said to us that those days are gone and that we cannot bring back the past. They sold all the recording equipment, the trailer and the grand piano from a studio in Regina. The recording studio was a state-of-the- art facility 20 years ago. That was all done without consulting the artistic community or the Franco-Saskatchewanian community, and they did it during the Year of the Fransaskois.
I am here to tell you that our artists are already at a disadvantage compared to anglophone artists from Quebec. In Quebec, if CBC is not interested in their work or it does not have the budget or willingness to play their songs and interview them, they have an average of four to six other English-language radio stations.
We just have one. So when we are told that there is no more room for us, the impact is that our artists are increasingly forced to build a parallel career in English, which is not a bad thing. It is still important to have a bilingual career, but that deprives artists of the opportunity to fully pursue their careers in French, in their mother tongue. In Saskatchewan, there are no artists like Sam Roberts or Susie Arioli who have made a career for themselves only in English in Quebec. That is unfair.
To conclude, I am asking for your support to restore funding for local radio and television programming for artists and Franco-Saskatchewanian communities, either through Radio-Canada or through organizations that are willing to do so. It is important to let Radio-Canada know that its disengagement from our Canadian francophone communities is simply wrong, given our history and the promises made to us in the beginning.
They must also be told that selling everything without consulting us — the way they did in Regina last year, making the recordings of our cultural and artistic activities practically impossible — will have a much more negative impact than just cutting short the careers of a few promising artists. And so will the decrease in opportunities year after year, preventing artists from becoming known.
The negative impact shows that Radio-Canada is backing away from reflecting Canada and recording the diversity of our country. Our national identity is poorly promoted if we stop supporting Canadian francophone artists who are contributing with their regional colours and their souls. Artists are assets for their communities and they need to be nurtured and treated with respect. There are dozens of artists who promote francophone Saskatchewan and the francophone community in and outside Quebec.
Can you name any other profession that can say as much? Thank you for your attention and for the opportunity to make those comments.
The Deputy Chair: Thank you very much, Ms. Campagne. I know that a number of my colleagues are ready to ask you questions.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: First of all, let me just say that you gave an excellent and very interesting presentation that reflected your reality. Here is my question. In its strategy 2015: Everyone, Every way, CBC/Radio-Canada has made a commitment to maintain and to take regional programming beyond news in order to reflect the local communities.
Considering the direction and the objectives set out in the strategy, would you say that Radio-Canada's efforts are bearing fruit?
Ms. Campagne: I think Radio-Canada's past efforts have truly reflected the community above and beyond information and computers. That was possible because of groups and individuals like Hart Rouge, Daniel Lavoie, Marie-Jo Thério and Robert Paquette who are quite renowned in Quebec. I think it is safe to say that this was possible in the past.
But the cuts to services are noticeable. There is no production anymore. I am specifically referring to the arts and culture sectors that usually affect our communities because cultural activities increase our visibility. I am surprised to hear you say that their 2015 mandate is actually to continue to support us. That is sort of the opposite of what Mr. Lacroix said when he paid us a visit in September.
He basically told us that the days of making recordings are gone. We will need to find cheaper ways to do those things, but it is practically impossible for them to provide us with those services.
As to the programming over the past two years, I feel that we are going down a road that will lead us nowhere if we do not change things right away.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: I took that from Radio-Canada's Strategy 2015. That is why I asked you about it. Here is my second question. Could you tell me whether Radio-Canada is aware of your expectations and whether it has consulted you?
Ms. Joly: Radio-Canada is invited and gives presentations on a regular basis at the Fédération des francophones general meeting and at our second annual meeting in the fall. Of course, representatives from community organizations are also present and ask questions. We often hear questions about local production and the fact that some places in British Columbia still do not get Radio-Canada or television in particular because of poor reception.
As far as we are concerned, I think we had a number of opportunities to talk with Radio-Canada executives. We had an opportunity to say what we wanted, but it was not really a consultation. It was something along the lines of ``yes, we hear what you are saying, but there is really nothing we can do about it or we are already doing our best''. So perhaps it is true that, in British Columbia, Radio-Canada is doing the best it can with the budget it has.
I am not able to say because I do not know the details of their budget. But what we are saying is that we would like to have a bigger share or to perhaps find another way of doing things.
Senator De Bané: Madam Deputy Chair, may I ask another question?
The Deputy Chair: Senator De Bané has another question.
Senator De Bané: Ms. Joly, in your brief, the second section entitled ``Creation of consultation and discussion mechanism'' says:
Radio-Canada does inform us of changes. . . Its staff do pay us visits. But it does not consult us to find out what the community thinks . . .
That is what Ms. Campagne said and that is what you are saying in your brief. And unfortunately, Radio-Canada's trademark is to go to the various regions in Canada and to inform us of its decision.
It never consults us to see what we want. The CRTC highly criticized Radio-Canada for that. According to CRTC officials, Radio-Canada does not listen enough. The CRTC feels that organizing annual meetings in all the provinces and sharing their points of view is part of consultation. Is that correct?
Ms. Campagne: Yes, I was going to say that I felt I was even harsher than Ms. Joly. All we keep getting is a done deal.
Senator De Bané: They sold the grand piano.
Ms. Campagne: Exactly. I am sure that Mr. Lacroix would say that his tour across western Canada last September was some sort of consultation. But a consultation is an exchange of ideas and viewpoints, as you said. And most often, all we see is a done deal and nothing can be done. There is nothing we can do. That is what I think.
Senator McIntyre: My thanks to the witnesses for their presentations. I would like to talk about the whole issue with the signal from the CBC/Radio-Canada broadcaster.
Last November, a series of witnesses from francophone minority communities told us that they simply do not get a signal from the broadcaster. I understand that the broadcaster has regional stations in Saskatchewan and British Columbia, as well as in Yukon. I also understand that a number of francophone communities in both Saskatchewan and British Columbia do not receive a signal from the broadcaster.
In British Columbia, in the Nelson area and in northern Vancouver Island, I see that the signal from the crown corporation is simply not available. I also understand that there is a significant pool of francophones, in Saskatchewan and British Columbia, who are interested in the French language and who understand it.
Having said that, in your view, what percentage of francophones do not have access to the signals of Radio- Canada's regional station? And where do those francophones live, for example?
Ms. Joly: As you mentioned, British Columbia has the Nelson area, which is quite mountainous, and that is Radio- Canada's explanation for the broadcasting problems. There is also the northern region of Vancouver Island, around Campbell River and Comox; in the Comox and Campbell River region, there is a very strong francophone community. There is also a military base in Comox and another one in Victoria. So we are talking about a large francophone population in that area. Nelson is also a very strong francophone centre in the Kootenay region of British Columbia.
I am not sure what the exact percentage is, but I know that, if we are strictly talking about the population and those whose mother tongue is French, there are approximately 2,000 people in the Kootenay region, for example. The population in northern British Columbia is a bit larger.
I personally do not think that it is just a question of percentage; we want to be able to reach the entire francophone population. Even if those communities have access to Radio-Canada through cable, they will have access to the Radio- Canada Montreal network, not their local network. So we are faced with the dilemma of either not having anything at all or having something that reflects what is really happening on the other side of the country.
Senator McIntyre: What is your relationship with CBC/Radio-Canada's English network?
Ms. Joly: Let me tell you a little story from British Columbia. In 2004, I was working for the Alliance française in Vancouver and it was its 100th anniversary. The executive director of the Alliance française contacted CBC to see if it was possible to establish some kind of media partnership for the coverage of that big event. CBC's response was to refer us to Radio-Canada's communications department, which, of course, was the opposite of what we wanted. We wanted the anglophone population to hear about the francophone community. So there is little dialogue between the francophone community and CBC.
I can tell you that the Vancouver offices where Radio-Canada and CBC's journalists work have been completely renovated recently and transformed into an integrated platform for all the journalists so that they can go back and forth and do the reports in both languages. Most of the time, Radio-Canada's journalists are the ones able to cover stories in English for CBC. The opposite is not as frequent. So CBC's involvement in the francophone community is minimal.
Senator Poirier: Thank you for your presentations. They were very interesting. Our committee has just released a study on social media. Do you think new social media would enable Radio-Canada to do a better job of fulfilling its mandate?
Ms. Campagne: When Mr. Lacroix came to visit us, we really appreciated his visit, because not a lot of people come and tell us things we do not really want to hear; he took the time to do so and I would like to point it out. But the discussion mainly revolved around the fact that we must move into the 21st century, that we have to learn to live with social media and that the future really depends on using platforms such as La boussole. That was pretty much his message.
Unfortunately, what the Franco-Saskatchewanian community has done in the past does not really fit with those ideas. They will certainly provide us with the same services and we will be able to have the services they offer to Quebecers, for instance. However, the message I got was that, if the services are not too expensive, they will provide them, and they could definitely have a lot more activities on the web and social media for us. But all those activities would replace what we used to have, which, in my mind, is really a contribution to developing the community. And I do not see how that can be replaced.
Senator Poirier: So in your view, that would not be as effective.
I have another question: in your province, how would you assess the effectiveness of new media among B.C.'s francophone population?
Ms. Campagne: I cannot give you an answer, because I am not sure how they will assess it.
Senator Poirier: No, but how do you assess it? Do you think that B.C.'s francophone communities have access to new media? I am talking about francophones and anglophones alike.
Ms. Campagne: I do not think we have the same services right now.
Ms. Joly: I am not sure that I fully understand your question, but in terms of using social media, I think francophones in British Columbia use them as well. I am specifically thinking of young people, of course, who are very active on social media. I am not sure that changing the communication platform would really solve a problem that seems to be rooted in specific interests and choices. You can have social media, but if the idea is to keep promoting Quebec content, the Canadian francophone community will still not be reflected. The medium does not make a difference in this case.
Senator Poirier: You said that Mr. Lacroix went on a tour this fall and that he came to talk to you. Did you feel they were open to your solutions?
Ms. Joly: As I said earlier, I think they are open to hearing what we have to say, but the answer lies with us, with our resources and with the control we have in British Columbia and there is not much that can be done. And I do not feel that this is really going to the highest decision-making level. If it is, it does not seem to have much of an effect.
Senator Poirier: Given that the francophone population increased by almost 12 per cent between 2006 and 2011, do you think you could seek support from other authorities in the province to put pressure on Radio-Canada or to help you make Radio-Canada understand how important it is to serve francophones in minority settings?
Ms. Joly: I had never considered it from that perspective. I do not know if it is really up to the provincial government to lobby Radio-Canada, which is a crown corporation. I think it is already in Radio-Canada's mandate to reflect the francophone community in Canada and, therefore, to reflect what is going on across the country. For me, it is more about reviewing how things are done rather than applying pressure through external means.
Senator Poirier: I was thinking more along the lines of support. Since the percentage of francophones is increasing, you could use this situation to apply pressure or to find additional support. It is well known that the more pressure a group exerts, the better its odds of getting what it wants. That was what I was aiming at with my question.
Ms. Joly: There is strength in numbers.
Ms. Campagne: In Saskatchewan, the number of registrations in French programs for young people has increased from 6 per cent to 7 per cent. There are more people learning French in Saskatchewan than ever before. It is important. One of the things that Mr. Lacroix said that is quite interesting and important is that these young people need to be offered services. I think that is what he intended with his social media idea and all that. It has not yet been created, but I think they are thinking about offering these people those services. Has it been created yet? No, not yet. Is there openness from Radio-Canada? Yes, but I agree with Ms. Joly that it is always within a context of ``here are our limitations, so talk to us''. It is always within a very limited context.
Senator Tardif: Thank you for your presentations. On a personal note, I can tell you, Ms. Campagne, that Hart Rouge played a very important role in strengthening the French fact for my children when they were adolescents. Your group came to Edmonton to put on a show, and my children loved the music. It is important for those of us in a minority situation to find every opportunity to strengthen the French fact and encourage our teens to listen to more music in French.
You spoke at length about Radio-Canada's disengagement from your communities. What do you think the reason for this disengagement is?
Ms. Campagne: We are always told that it is a budget issue and that there are difficult choices to be made. Personally, I have always been the kind of person to look around me before looking elsewhere. It is pretty easy to disengage from Canadian communities when we know that, year after year, the budgets will not increase — or might even decrease. The first reaction would be to find a way to avoid going to Zenon Park or to offer a service to Zenon Park from an armchair in Regina. It is easier. It is costly to go into the regions; it is more work. I understand that this was Radio-Canada's immediate reaction when the budget was cut. They are making cuts in the regions, where it is most expensive. They still have some money, but they will go where the effort is less. I think that Radio-Canada is increasingly seeing broadcasting to and supporting Canadian communities as a burden, as something that they have to justify to Quebecers and Montrealers. Quite simply, I think that, at the end of the day, they have run out of steam, they are a little resigned. They have to administer very tight budgets and it is easier to make cuts in the most vulnerable and remote regions.
Ms. Joly: I fully agree. I would like to reinforce what Suzanne said. The situation is the same in British Columbia. We were presented with the same arguments, for example that the core audience is in Quebec. It is the whole chicken and egg debate. If we do not talk about French-speaking Canada outside Quebec, a group that is growing significantly, of course no one else is going to be interested in them.
It is this idea of doing what is easier: it is not what interests our core audience, so it will not be a big deal if we stop talking about them. Not talking about it really hurts outside Quebec.
Senator Tardif: We know very well that there will be cuts in the order of $115 million to Radio-Canada over the next three years. These cuts seem to be having a negative effect on the communities, particularly the minority language communities. What would you suggest to Radio-Canada? How could it maintain its presence in your regions, despite the budget cuts?
Ms. Joly: I do not have in-depth knowledge of Radio-Canada's situation, but I would like to suggest things like creating links between the French and English sides. That would be a way to develop things by having bilingual staff, which would make it possible to move from one side to the other, but also to have some openness to the other community. Receiving coverage from CBC would lend enormous support to the francophone minority community.
I am going to throw an idea out there. It is true that a major percentage of Radio-Canada's staff and human resources are concentrated in Quebec. Perhaps one way to have a better impact on the rest of Canada would be to eventually move staff to have a better potential to talk about francophone communities outside Quebec.
Ms. Campagne: I agree that, in Saskatchewan, CBC/Radio-Canada — and I am talking about the arts and culture aspects — have always had good ties with the community. We have always shared recordings. CBC is always willing to record a Franco-Saskatchewanian event or a Franco-Saskatchewan artist. In the past, they have always been very open to that.
Just now, I mentioned Zenon Park, a small community way off in the province, far away from us. When I agreed to represent that community, I knew where it was. Within all the constant budget cuts, a willingness and philosophy must remain. It is not a matter of absolutely wanting to keep one thing or another. Of course, we know that they will have to make cuts to their operational programming somewhere, but they must remember their mandate. I am not sure that anyone is there to remind them: you said that you were going to carry out this mandate and you must continue to carry it out with what you have.
Great access does not necessarily mean jumping into the wilds of the Internet because that is what everyone else is doing. Everyone is into information and computers. Why not do something that we know, that would be different from what others are doing, but that would maintain this relationship that they have always had with Canadian French-speaking communities? That would really showcase the community to others.
When I represented Canada in Barcelona, I did not say that I dreamt of a free Quebec. No, I said that I was part of a country that works. Radio-Canada has a duty to promote that national identity. It must first have the willingness to do so, but I think that it is no longer there.
Radio-Canada often says that its role is to broadcast and to inform. Mr. Lacroix often came up with these questions: Is it really up to us to promote the development of Franco-Saskatchewanian artists? Is it really up to us to showcase the Franco-Saskatchewanian community to the rest of Canada? Is it really up to us? The question came up at least 10 times that night.
Senator De Bané: It is in the act.
Ms. Campagne: But when we said yes, but I do not listen to the Internet; I am a lawyer who listens to my local evening program. I do not have time to listen to these things. His answer was, ``Listen, you are 3 per cent of the population now. Now, young people are clicking all over. It is important to be clued in.''
Senator De Bané: The Broadcasting Act states that Radio-Canada's mission includes promoting cultural exchanges between the two communities — that it should showcase them. So if it does not like that, if it enjoys reading financial statements, the act requires Radio-Canada to take care of artists.
Senator Robichaud: Ms. Campagne, I found what you said about your career very interesting, that you were a singer and travelled the world, and the role that Radio-Canada played in helping you in your career.
Am I to understand that young artists just starting out, as was the case for you, could not count on Radio-Canada to help them break onto the national or international scene, even with the help of new media?
Ms. Campagne: No, because it is not just about paying the artist. It is about broadcasting that was done in Quebec with these national programs. It is exposure that we need. It is having a forum where we can attract Quebecers' attention. I think that once Quebecers are aware of the situation of Franco-Saskatchewanians and Franco- Manitobans, there is an automatic openness. It has been a long time since these communities have been talked about in Quebec.
There is less and less of a national vision. When I tell you that it is important to have that, it is because, when Marie- Jo Thério gets on the stage, of course people will discover Acadians, because of her accent, because of who she is. Of course they will discover the community. That is what we did when we represented Canada at those summits. We represented another perspective. It is important and, as you said, this is what they are supposed to do. But there is some resignation, a weariness about how we can satisfy these communities without the money we have always had.
We have to start thinking differently and say, from the beginning, ``No, the mandate is to go to Zenon Park. I will go there and I will serve that community.'' Period.
Ms. Joly: I would like to add something essential to that. For example, in British Columbia, Radio-Canada will record Pacifique en Chanson, a singing contest for young talent. It will be broadcast in British Columbia. It will not be broadcast nationally — which could be considered. I also think that, from a purely arts and culture perspective, the mandate of talking about the francophone culture also means talking about the economic or political situation or the impact that a certain number of decisions will have on a francophone community in a minority situation.
That is also something that comes up very little, content-wise, on the rare occasions that the francophone community outside Quebec appears in Radio-Canada programming. So there is also this part of the culture that is not just artistic.
Ms. Campagne: I would like to add something that is along those same lines. When Mr. Lacroix testified, he spoke at length about the fact that we did not have a francophone superstar. CBC has Jian Ghomeshi, who is a sort of a superstar. A lot of young people often listen to him.
Mr. Lacroix said that there was no superstar in French. I told Mr. Lacroix that Jian Ghomeshi toured with Moxy Früvous for 15 years. He travelled all over Canada and intimately knows the regions and how people in Halifax will react to something in the news.
If Mr. Lacroix wants a francophone superstar, he needs to go explore the francophone communities outside Quebec. The person who would fit the bill must have an intimate knowledge of the people he or she wants to connect with. And that is not what is currently being done.
Senator Robichaud: It is the whole chicken and egg issue. It is knowing where to start and how to get yourself known. From what I understand, providing local and regional newscasts does not seem to fulfill Radio-Canada's mandate, which is to provide more information about the small news stories coming out of the francophone communities. That will not be enough.
Ms. Campagne: No, it certainly will not be enough. I got myself known in my own community by doing interviews and special programming. It was not through the news that I made a name for myself. Of course, it is important to be able to get our news in French, I agree. But that is not what will ensure that we know what is going on in other parts of our province. That is not what will strengthen the Franco-Saskatchewanian fact.
Senator Robichaud: When Radio-Canada eliminated its workforce in Regina, I am sure you questioned it. What were you told?
Ms. Campagne: We were told that there was going to be a move toward the news, information and computing and that it became clear that they were recording fewer and fewer events. So why keep the equipment? In passing, I can tell you that they sold that equipment for a song. They sold the grand piano for next to nothing. It did not make any sense. In any case, I am very passionate about these things.
Senator Robichaud: Thank you, Ms. Campagne.
The Deputy Chair: Senator De Bané, since you have spoken twice, I would appreciate it if this intervention could be brief to give the other senators a chance to speak as well.
Senator De Bané: Ms. Joly, you told us that the population where you are from has increased by close to 12 per cent and that, if we include everyone who has French as a mother tongue, who speaks French, who studied French and who can communicate in French — like the Minister of Canadian Heritage, who is from Vancouver — that would be 300,000 people who speak French in your province.
Ms. Campagne, what is the situation in Saskatchewan? Do you know how many people, aside from those whose mother tongue is French, have taken immersion courses and speak French?
Ms. Campagne: There are about 54,000 people. I know that not long ago the number of people whose mother tongue was French was 17,000. We noted that the number was very low and that a lot of newcomers have settled in Saskatchewan over the past six years, which means that Saskatchewan now has about 60,000 people who speak French.
Senator De Bané: There is one thing I see that you both agree on; you are both saying that you would like to see closer ties between Radio-Canada and the communities. You think that two-way communications could generate original ideas. I think that both of you agree on that.
Then you said, and I quote:
. . . Nova Scotia, Francophones in B.C. ``do not see, hear or read about themselves'' in the national network's programming.
Ms. Campagne said that:
The artists cannot see them either, and that you think it is essential to increase content from the regions in programming on the national network.
Many people made the same complaint during the CRTC licence renewal hearings. And let us hope that the CRTC which, I think, was quite impressed by the number of spokespeople from the various regions of Canada who said that this mandate in the act, which is to reflect what is going on in the regions, is not being properly carried out.
I would like to express my admiration and, if I may, I would also like to ask you if you think we could also consider using the financial resources of both networks in the various regions to try to attain the same results while maximizing the use of the assets of both networks. Each network currently has an administration, vehicles, cameras. If we could use them in certain regions to produce more programs, is that a solution that is worth considering?
Ms. Campagne: I could not answer that question with any accuracy, but I think that there has already been a lot of exchange in Regina. There have already been a lot of these exchanges in that building, perhaps not yet enough. I cannot really answer that question, senator.
Senator De Bané: I understand very well. You know that there are two applications before the CRTC for two Canada-wide French networks. Only one will be chosen. There is one from TV5, which produces programming in Acadia and in western Canada, and so on, and there is also another project, called Accents.
Do you think having competition with these projects might have an impact on Radio-Canada's policies in the regions?
Ms. Campagne: I would say so because it will then have a bit of competition that may spark something.
Having said that, Ms. Gouin came to speak to us about TV5. She came to offer us her programming. That is good, but we have the impression we are starting over from scratch.
Senator De Bané: No.
Ms. Campagne: What is unfortunate with what is going on with Radio-Canada is that the infrastructure is already there. We have a significant history with Radio-Canada. Perhaps the competition will improve things. Perhaps it will be a kind of wake-up call, but having to choose one or the other concerns me a bit.
Yes, TVA has a budget, but do they have the knowledge? We would be back at square one in knowing who the communities are, who the organizations are.
Accents is another story. Perhaps they have the willingness and the knowledge of Canada's francophone communities, but they do not have the stature, the history and the presence of Radio-Canada, which is already in place.
If we used what worked, I think it could still work. The fact that there is this immediate broadcasting in Quebec, I would rather say, ``keep the major infrastructure in place and make it work,'' rather than, ``we will exchange it for something else.'' Perhaps the competition will make a difference and perhaps it will eventually have a negative effect on the small communities that do not figure prominently in audience ratings.
Ms. Joly: I will be happy to see another francophone station other than Radio-Canada. Why limit ourselves? We do not limit the number of channels in other languages. It would be interesting to have some diversity in this perspective. I am not looking at the issue of Accents and TV5 in terms of what needs to be supported now. As for us, we would love to have three stations.
With respect to the issue of comparing with Radio-Canada, yes if this could be a competition that would spark a little fire under Radio-Canada to show interest in communities outside Quebec, why not? But at the same time, that does not change Radio-Canada's mandate. The mandate, as such, is still a national and public television mandate. But that would not prevent it from being able at some point to have exchanges between these various television stations, but Radio-Canada will always have a mandate to broadcast in Quebec and outside Quebec, and to reflect Quebec and outside Quebec. These are two things that still remain separate.
To come back to your previous question, one thing must be taken into consideration with respect to whether we can combine our strengths or join forces and do something better. British Columbia is a large area. Even if part of it is uninhabited in the north, there are still francophone associations in Prince George and in Prince Rupert. That covers a very large area. Even if there was improved integration of the CBC and Radio-Canada platforms, we would still wonder how to cover those regions. People need to be sent there. We cannot keep equipment in all regions, but we still need to send people and have a budget because these people are also part of the francophone community.
If we want to cover what is going on and eventually have your finger on the pulse of what is going on in these regions, you need to go there. Travelling there is a necessity.
Senator Mockler: Thank you for your exceptional testimonies. I will go right ahead and say that we will get to know our communities through the artists, be it Natasha St-Pier, Marie-Jo Thério or Roch Voisine, who all come from New Brunswick.
My question is related to your statement, Ms. Joly. I was under the impression that the second-most spoken language in British Columbia was an Asian language, but you say it is French.
Ms. Joly: According to recent statistics, I will tell you a little something. Yes, there is a very high Asian population, but if you look at the languages as such, and we make a distinction between Cantonese and Mandarin, French places higher in that respect. If you just take the Asian community in terms of percentage, it is higher, but strictly in terms of spoken language, more people speak French.
Senator Mockler: I live right next to the United States, Maine to be exact, and on Friday night, I listened to a program on social media. Do you think that social media poses a threat to Radio-Canada?
Ms. Joly: Probably not in the sense that social media is a communication tool. I do not know if, from that perspective, it threatens Radio-Canada any more than another television station. There are also ways to use social media.
Another thing is that we talk a lot about social media for young people. This is also true for older people, but it is true that young people are very much connected to social media. I was reminded of this last week by someone younger than me who said that, although they may be alone in their room, they are talking to their friends through social media. They are still in the process of socializing.
It is clearly an important area that may become much more important. How and why we use it will make a key difference.
Ms. Campagne: It is an interesting question, but social media is a fact of life. All organizations will have to contend with social media. Everyone has to do it. Mr. Lacroix told us that we really had to move into the 21st century. Yes, everyone is dealing with these things. They are tools. Where the danger lies is in focusing too much on playing catch-up with social media, to the detriment of the Radio-Canada brand.
It is this personalized side and the depth of the interviews. It involves going deeper. But social media focuses more on five or ten second bits. I find that goes against what people like about Radio-Canada and CBC, the depth.
So, in that sense, it is harmful. On the other hand, it is like asking whether television can threaten Radio-Canada. It is a tool or a medium that needs to be mastered.
Senator Mockler: Senator Fortin-Duplessis made an observation. In the context of the 2015 strategy, we were told certain things. We will have to see if there will be any follow-up, for you and for us — I will no doubt do a little follow- up. We were told that in Everyone, Every way, CBC/Radio-Canada is committing to maintaining and increasing regional programming, beyond news, to reflect the local communities. So it seems there is a commitment. But based on the discussion you have had with them, they are not moving in that direction.
Ms. Campagne: Not that I can see, at least. There has been a decrease in programs and services in the communities, especially since the CRTC funds were eliminated. It would seem that, since then, nothing can be done locally. That money is gone and nothing more can be done.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: I have a comment for Ms. Campagne. I will give you my opinion of Radio-Canada. I am from Quebec, Quebec City, in fact. It is always about Montreal. Radio-Canada in Montreal is very busy indirectly promoting Quebec separation. Especially when we see a Radio-Canada correspondent in the Quebec National Assembly who stepped down and ran for the Parti québécois. In his comments, he was not always fair to the other parties in Quebec. Personally, Radio-Canada is not respecting its mandate.
Ms. Campagne: I was going to say that. But I was afraid my comments would be going too far, so I said nothing.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: That is my opinion, at least.
If you find my next question too long, you can give us your answer in writing. With respect to promoting the French language in Quebec, who do you think should be the core figure responsible? The public sector, the private sector or even the community sector?
My earlier comment had nothing to do with my question. I just wanted to say that.
Ms. Campagne: Given the context of francophone Canadians in minority situations, I think the responsibility falls to the public sector. When we talk about the private sector, it is about ratings and numbers. But we still matter very little. The numbers are always increasing, but that is all. I think this is a matter for the public sector.
Ms. Joly: Are you talking just about media or in general?
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: In general.
Ms. Joly: There should also be a group effort. As Suzanne was saying, I do not know if the private sector is very interested. The community does not have enough resources to shoulder this on its own. So there is obviously a need for the public sector to get involved as well. There, too, if everyone contributes, we can ensure that we get there.
You were talking about a concentration in Quebec, and I would just like to add something. If I take the example of British Columbia, the francophone community has changed enormously. You might say that, perhaps 20 years ago, having a television or radio station that reflected what was going on in Quebec might be of interest to the population outside Quebec because a majority of those people were originally from Quebec. That is no longer the case. There is more and more immigration. British Columbia's francophone community has changed enormously. So hearing about things that are going on in Montreal or about people, personalities or artists from Quebec does not necessarily mean very much to this new francophone population.
There is that gap as well. It is not just focusing on what is going on, but it is also the people we see that, I think, should be more reflective of diversity.
The Deputy Chair: I have been listening to both of you and to my colleagues over this hour and a half that we have spent together. I am asking myself a question very seriously. It seems that francophones in minority communities, when it comes to Radio-Canada, are on the same path as classical music.
You were talking about sound recordings. With the 10 per cent in cuts to Radio-Canada, the first thing to disappear was RCI. Radio Canada International produced albums by Canadian composers and performed by Canadians that went around the world. Our ambassadors were pleased and had a duty to transport them.
You were talking about recordings. For example, I remember that we called Radio-Canada to say that a very important concert would be held in two weeks at the music camp near Roberval, in Métabetchouan, and that it should be recorded. The response was that the technician was on vacation and that no one else was available. It is sort of the same way of seeing things.
We want to talk about social media. Justin Bieber was discovered through a very amateur clip on Facebook or something like that.
Still, we must work together to convince our public radio and television broadcaster to make some changes to its programming choices, what is important and what is not important. Should we forget completely about francophone minority communities? Should we forget about classical music? In Quebec and everywhere, we are celebrating the 75th anniversary of the SRC. But not even five minutes of any of the grand operas produced by Radio-Canada were broadcast. One opera even won an Emmy in the United States and was recorded live in Montreal. Did we see 30 seconds of that? Whether it is Claire Gagnier, Verreault, Savoie or Jobin, we never saw them again, even during the celebrations for Radio-Canada's 75th anniversary. They were tossed aside. We have not seen many programs from francophone minority communities.
I participated in the CRTC hearings on CBC/Radio-Canada's services. That was one of the points I really tried to stress. Let us all hope that, backed by this committee's report, which should come out in the next few weeks or months, we will be able to make a difference in Radio-Canada's programming choices. That is what I hope for all our sakes.
Ms. Campagne, Ms. Joly, thank you. Unfortunately, we are out of time. Thank you.
Senator Robichaud: We do not have time for another question?
The Deputy Chair: Another round? We need to leave some time to discuss committee business in camera.
Perhaps, we can do a second round, five to seven minutes long.
Senator Tardif: On top of the cuts facing CBC/Radio-Canada, the CRTC also announced that the Local Programming Improvement Fund would be phased out in the near future.
What impact will that have on your communities? Do you think it will affect regional production capacity?
Ms. Campagne: There is no doubt it will be affected. I can already name four major events that will no longer be covered once the fund disappears.
Actually, I am not even sure that the fund was eliminated. Rather, I think it was incorporated in the main budget, and that is not the same as it being eliminated. I will try to answer your question. Clearly, there will be an impact.
One of the first responses we heard was that, without the fund, there will be virtually zero local arts programming because it was made possible by the fund.
Senator Tardif: Is it the same for British Columbia?
Ms. Joly: As I mentioned, Radio-Canada's arm in British Columbia did not give us any figures or details on what impact the fund's elimination would have.
On the flip side, however, what I do see is that we have a TV program that is done locally, Téléjournal. And that is not much. Of course, there are a certain number of rebroadcasts after the fact, but are they available at the national level? Not to my knowledge.
So, we are already standing on very shaky ground. If it becomes even shakier, I am not sure what will happen.
Senator De Bané: One thing really upset me. The committee heard from the president of Ontario's francophone community, the largest one in Canada outside Quebec. He told us that when he goes to Quebec, people are shocked that he can still speak French. That just goes to show how oblivious Quebec's younger generations are when it comes to the vibrancy of our communities in the rest of the country.
Marie-Linda Lord, of New Brunswick, said something to the committee I found rather thought-provoking. She commented that, for those of us living in minority communities, seeing other francophones in minority communities on TV — whether in Saskatchewan, British Columbia or Ontario — gives us confidence in ourselves and boosts our morale. She said that never seeing those figures in the media makes us question whether we are fighting our fight effectively.
Would you agree with her?
Ms. Campagne: That is where the impact of those reduced services comes into play. We no longer see others like us. Sometimes, I think it is purposeful. If you separate people so they cannot talk to one another, see one another or meet one another, you weaken their voice. So yes, I would agree with that statement.
Senator Robichaud: My question is short and sweet. Does Radio-Canada's weakened presence in your communities concern you in terms of assimilation?
Ms. Joly: Assimilation in British Columbia is already a big problem. Even though there are those who would prefer that we not use the word because it has such a negative connotation, it is still a very real phenomenon. There is no denying, however, that as far as education goes, British Columbia is extremely keen on immersion schools. Indeed, people always say that having a school system is good and having an immersion system is great. If our children can be educated in French, wonderful. But what happens when they leave that school system; are there French-language universities they can attend? Do their communities offer activities in French?
It is futile to learn a language but never use it. Passive learning is being lost. So yes, we do need support around us, and that includes access to television and radio programs in French.
I know a number of native English speakers who tune into Radio-Canada's French programming just to maintain some degree of contact with the language. Those people often appreciate the quality of programming available to them.
What is more, British Columbia has potential in the production arena. There are francophones who work in that business, in TV or radio production. So there is a pool of talent there that just needs to be tapped.
Ms. Campagne: In my presentation, I referred to a disparity in comparison with Quebec's anglophone artists. They have the luxury of building a career solely in English and they do quite well. More and more jobs, in the arts and other sectors, are moving towards bilingualism. In that respect, then, it is easier to say that there is greater access on the anglophone side. It holds a lot of opportunity, so people will go in that direction.
So, yes, I think how those services are delivered to our communities can contribute to assimilation. And that is true, despite the fact that more and more people are learning French in our province.
The Deputy Chair: Ms. Campagne, Ms. Joly, thank you for being here today. We appreciate your input. No doubt, your comments will be included in our report.
Honourable senators, I thank you as well.
We will take a short break and resume the meeting afterwards.
(The committee continued in camera.)