Proceedings of the Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs
Issue 8 - Evidence - October 31, 2012
OTTAWA, Wednesday, October 31, 2012
The Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs of the Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence met this day at 12:09 p.m. to study the services and benefits provided to members of the Canadian Forces; to veterans; to members and former members of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and their families.
Senator Roméo Antonius Dallaire (Chair) in the chair.
[Translation]
The Chair: Ladies and gentlemen, I declare this hearing of the Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs open. We are continuing our study on the transition of veterans.
Despite the storm, we have established contact with our witness from Prince Edward Island. I am going to ask each of the participants to introduce themselves and tell us very quickly about their responsibilities. Afterwards, they will make a short presentation.
Charlotte Bastien, Regional Director General, Ontario/Quebec, Veterans Affairs Canada: Good afternoon. I am Charlotte Bastien and I am the Acting Regional Director for service delivery and program management at Veterans Affairs Canada. I am responsible for the delivery of all services and delivery support at Veterans Affairs Canada for the entire country. I am accompanied by Anne-Marie Pellerin.
[English]
She is the director of rehabilitation and case management. I also have Janice Burke, senior director of strategic policy integration. Ms. Pellerin will do the presentation on Career Transition Services, and Ms. Burke and I will assist with any questions.
Anne-Marie Pellerin, Director, Rehabilitation and Case Management, Veterans Affairs Canada: Good afternoon, honourable senators. As mentioned, my title is director of case management, rehabilitation and mental health services. That includes responsibility for Veterans Affairs Canada's Career Transition Services.
The presentation today is intended to give the committee an overview of Career Transition Services, including aspects of eligibility; the components of services that have been available to date; some statistics on program results and uptake to date; changes that will be or are in the process of being introduced as a result of Budget 2012; the relationship between Career Transition Services, SISIP— which is offered under the Department of National Defence — and VAC's Rehabilitation Program. We will wind up the presentation by talking about the partnerships we have around career transitioning and transition services for veterans.
I would be happy to respond to any questions after the presentation, as will my colleagues.
As the committee knows, Career Transition Services is one of the programs introduced as part of the New Veterans Charter and it came into effect in April 2006. The program was designed to assist both CF members and veterans in planning and preparing for career transition, and to support them in finding suitable and satisfying post-military employment.
The target group for Career Transition Services is voluntarily released veterans. Generally speaking, it would be individuals who are releasing from the military without serious health issues.
The Career Transition Services program was developed in close collaboration with the Canadian Forces and is intended to build upon the services provided to CF members while they are still serving. The workshop component of VAC's Career Transition Services was provided on Canadian Forces bases across the country until September 2012. At that point there were Budget 2012 changes — and I will get into some more detail on that in a moment — so as of September we are no longer providing workshops as part of our Career Transition Services.
Since 2007, VAC's Career Transition Services have been provided under contract with Right Management. Right Management is an international career transition company that provides similar services in the United Kingdom, Norway and Australia. The Canadian arm of Right Management is headquartered in Toronto.
In terms of eligibility, Career Transition Services is now available to regular force veterans, reserve force veterans and survivors if the veteran would have been eligible for Career Transition Services at the time of death.
Veterans who participate in the program must be honourably released and generally must apply within two years of release from the military in order to be eligible for the service.
Slide 4 describes the components of Career Transition Services that have been provided by Right Management to date. The workshops were provided for the period of 2007 to 2012. They were usually offered on or near CF bases. Participation in workshops was limited to a maximum of 12 participants, and the modules over the three-day period included topics such as career assessment, resumé basics, job search strategies and interview and negotiation strategies. As I indicated, the workshops are no longer being offered by Veteran Affairs Canada as of September.
The second component of Career Transition Services is individual career counselling that is provided by a Right Management counsellor one on one with the veteran participant in the veteran's community. This aspect of the service is more in-depth in terms of extensive career assessment and testing, discussions on the veteran's education and training, and exploration of career possibilities.
The third component is job-finding assistance, which includes market research assistance, a talent profile bank and virtual job search teams. There are also ``meet the employer'' events that Right Management coordinates and ensures access to by veteran participants in the program.
In terms of the Career Transition Services job bank, there are approximately 200 registered employers across Canada, with over 2,000 job opportunities listed per fiscal year.
Slide 5 provides statistics on Career Transition Services to date. Right Management provided in excess of 740 workshops to the end of September, and almost 5,500 people participated in those workshops since 2007.
I think the demographics speak for themselves. The participants in Career Transition Services are primarily regular force members or veterans. The majority have in excess of 16 years of service. They are predominantly male, and the bulk of participants are in the 45 to 55 years of age range.
For the individual career counselling job-finding assistance, as of September 30 we had 682 participants who were currently registered and participating in the program. The participants who have completed the program, at 467, may be a bit misleading in that not all participants in the program report back that they have successfully found job opportunities or found employment in the civilian sector. The 467 reflects only those who have reported back either to Right Management or to the department that they have completed and in most cases are employed in the civilian workforce.
Regarding outcomes of completion, for those who have reported back, the majority have obtained employment, and a significant cohort, 78, have chosen to remain in the Canadian Forces.
Slide 6 describes for the committee some of the impacts or key features of Budget 2012 relative to Career Transition Services. As a result of Budget 2012, we are eliminating duplication of services for still-serving members of the Canadian Forces. This change will ensure that the responsibilities of the Department of National Defence and Veterans Affairs are clearly distinguished. That will not only benefit our veterans and still-serving members, who have tended to experience some levels of confusion in terms of that duplication, but it will also benefit Canadians at large by streamlining and ensuring efficiency of services.
Specifically, the changes to VAC's Career Transition Services delivery model mean that veterans will have more flexibility to choose a service provider of their choice in their community. In other words, Veterans Affairs will no longer have a national contractor or a contract in place to provide career transition services.
In this way, career transition services will be obtained by the veteran in a way that best meets their individual needs. The change provides for a lifetime maximum of up to $1,000 for eligible participants in the program. As mentioned, the contract with Right Management is in the process of being expired.
With these changes, the Department of National Defence is assuming primary responsibility for providing career transition services to those who are still in uniform.
I will speak a few minutes about the relationship of Career Transition Services with SISIP and with our Rehabilitation Program. Both SISIP and the VAC Rehabilitation Program have job-finding assistance services within their programs. That would be similar in some respects to Career Transition Services. The difference is that SISIP services are directed primarily to medically releasing members. The voluntarily releasing that is the target group for Career Transition Services would not have eligibility for SISIP.
VAC's Rehabilitation Program, too, is targeted at those who medically release or those who have a service-related rehabilitation need, usually a health issue that has emerged that can reasonably be linked to service, and therefore they can have access to the Rehabilitation Program. For Career Transition Services, there is no need to have any type of service-related health issue. As I said, it is primarily targeted to the voluntarily releasing.
In terms of partnerships for our Career Transition Services and for our Vocational Rehabilitation Program as well, we work very closely with the Canadian Forces to ensure that we minimize duplication and gaps in service. Therefore, we have maintained and will continue to maintain a very close working relationship with our CF colleagues as we proceed with the implementation of our Budget 2012 changes and ongoing operations of our programs and their programs.
We also have a strong relationship with Human Resources and Skills Development Canada. Both of our contractors, Right Management and our vocational rehabilitation contractor, are linked in with the HRSDC programming, and we ensure that the services and programs available through that government department are equally available and accessible by our veteran population.
We are supporting academic institutions in their programming and services offered to veterans. One example is The Prince's Operational Entrepreneur program, which supports veterans who want to go into business for themselves. This program is offered in partnership by Memorial University in Newfoundland and Labrador and with the Canadian Youth Business Foundation. Veterans Affairs is supporting that in kind and encouraging veterans to access that program opportunity if in fact they are interested in starting a business.
Helmets to Hardhats is another area where Veterans Affairs has partnered with Canada's building trades unions. That website just recently went live and links both CF members who are planning to release and our veteran community with job and apprentice opportunities in the construction and building trades across Canada.
Those are just some examples of partnerships that we have in place, and we continue to work on and develop other partnerships with corporate Canada, the private sector and charitable foundations as well as our government partners.
That I hope gives the committee an overview of the program and some of the changes being introduced. We would be happy to entertain any questions you may have.
Senator Plett: Thank you, witnesses, for appearing. Hopefully you are weathering the storm as well as possible in Prince Edward Island.
Two of my questions relate to your slide presentation and another is related to the Auditor General's report.
When you talk on slide 3 about survivors, if the veteran would have been eligible at the time of the death, who would those survivors included? Would they be spouses or children, and how would they access the program?
Ms. Pellerin: It would be survivors. They would be spouses, including common-law partners of veterans who would have been eligible for the program at the time of their death, and the survivor would apply to the department for eligibility for the program following the death of the veteran.
Senator Plett: Survivors would not include children?
Ms. Pellerin: No, they would not.
Senator Plett: Could you be clearer about the elimination of the duplication of services for serving CF members? I know it says you are distinguishing between the Department of National Defence and Veterans Affairs, but what services would have been duplicated before?
Ms. Pellerin: The Department of National Defence has personnel selection officers who work with members as they are contemplating release or are in fact in the release process. The Department of National Defence also offers to voluntarily releasing members an educational reimbursement program. Those two, in the case of the personnel selection officers and the supports that they provide as well as the funding for education for members, are entirely housed within the Department of National Defence. To some extent there is some overlap perhaps and duplication in terms of the career preparation work that Veterans Affairs is doing or has been doing with those who are still serving, in terms of the work of the personnel selection officers.
Senator Plett: I have one question on Chapter 4 of the Auditor General's report. I am getting away a bit from your presentation here, but there is a recommendation that National Defence, the Canadian Forces and Veterans Affairs Canada should streamline and automate their transition policies and administrative processes to make it easier for ill and injured forces members and veterans to access programs and benefits in a timely manner. The page before that talks about one tool that could help Veterans Affairs provide more accurate and timely service, and that is the benefits browser, a software application being reviewed by the department but not yet implemented. Would you be able to speak a little bit about that browser?
Ms. Pellerin: I can speak a bit about that, and perhaps my colleagues can contribute if they have additional information.
The transition services that are offered as a member is getting ready to release are largely offered through the Integrated Personnel Support Centres. Therefore, our efforts in terms of automating services in that venue is to encourage and work with our CF colleagues around the exchange and automated transfer of information on individual clients, all within the purview of our privacy legislation and requirements. Work is under way to scan and exchange records electronically.
In terms of the Veterans Affairs Canada case managers, we are looking at various technologies that would allow them to more readily assess and document issues around veterans assessments and get those into our system so that it enables the department to render decisions on required benefits and services in a more streamlined and efficient way.
The benefits browser is a feature that will soon be available to members, if it is not already. I think this happened since the release of the Auditor General's report, so it is available to veterans. It allows them to go into our website and, based on their individual circumstances, explore for themselves what benefits and services they may be eligible for from our department.
I think I describe it as a self-serve option for veterans to help inform them about what they may be eligible for within Veterans Affairs Canada.
Janice Burke, Senior Director, Strategic Policy Integration, Veterans Affairs Canada: I will add to that, if I may. The browser also contains information on DND programs and policies. Therefore, it is helpful for people who work in the Integrated Personnel Support Centres because they have access in one area to all information pertaining to a releasing member — from a VAC perspective and a DND perspective. They are able to get that information right at their fingertips when the member is with them. It is easy access, and it includes information on programs that DND and VAC both offer.
Senator Plett: One of the concerns that we have heard numerous times is that the website, if you will, is not very user-friendly. I assume this will address that issue and will make it more user-friendly, will it not?
Ms. Burke: Yes, you are absolutely correct. One of the criticisms we have had is that the website, before the implementation of the browser, contained a lot of good information, but it was all over the place and in different areas. This brings it all together in one area and allows the veteran who is releasing as well as a veteran who has released to go through a step-by-step process through a question-and-answer format to quickly get to exactly the information that is relevant to them.
Senator Wallin: I apologize for the cold; I hope you can understand me long distance. Is it your assessment that the individual career counselling approach as opposed to the workshops is more effective and results in more frequent placement?
Ms. Pellerin: Not necessarily. I say that because the workshops and the uptake on the workshops have been significantly higher than has been the uptake on the individual career counselling. Based on consultation with our contractor, the conclusion is that the three-day workshop really is important and successful in preparing the releasing member for that career transition.
Senator Wallin: What are the statistics on that? You have information for the individual career counselling that there were 467 participants who completed the program, and outcomes at program completion are 350. That is 350 out of 467. Out of the 5,475, do you have an equivalent statistic?
Ms. Pellerin: No, we do not, because the workshop is generally done while the member is still serving. It would only be after they release from the military that they would then subsequently go on to seek and find employment in the civilian sector. They do not report back to the contractor or to Veterans Affairs Canada in terms of success.
However, based on our life-after-service study, we do know that the unemployment rate for veterans is on par with that of the general Canadian population.
Senator Wallin: That is an interesting fact. Would that be the reason that you are trying to steer more people to existing private-sector approaches to this rather than providing the service? I am talking about this whole notion of allowing the member who is transitioning out to find the service in their own area and be compensated for that.
Ms. Pellerin: The thrust behind this change is to allow released members to access the services that best meet their needs and in their local community. It gives them more choice than does a standardized national program and contract. It gives them more choice, and there are a number of companies across Canada that are involved in this type of service.
Ms. Burke: As Ms. Pellerin indicated, the local service providers tend to know the local employment situation better than you could at a national level. Also, they are better connected with employers at the local level. Therefore, understanding and promoting employment for veterans in communities is another positive change as a result of that.
In addition, it is very much a hassle-free service because there is no application to VAC; you go to the service provider of your choice and have the provider bill Veterans Affairs Canada, or you can bill VAC directly.
It gets out of this bureaucracy of applying and then waiting for Veterans Affairs Canada to get back to them. It is more immediate for the veteran.
Senator Wallin: I do not want to suggest you are putting yourselves out of work, because I guess there would be the paperwork to do, but you are saying that rather than providing the services yourself, it is in a way better just to connect people with services that exist; is that not right?
Ms. Burke: Yes.
Ms. Pellerin: Yes.
Senator Wallin: Are the 200 employers with the programs in government that embrace veterans with priority hiring and that have signed up that you would put people in touch with at ``meet employer'' events separate from government?
Ms. Pellerin: Yes, they would be.
Senator Wallin: Those are private sector.
Ms. Pellerin: That is correct.
Senator Wallin: Are the 200 separate from the Helmets to Hardhats program, or would those numbers overlap?
Ms. Pellerin: There could potentially be some overlap. The inventory is maintained by Right Management, so it is their website. They register the employers. As I said, there could conceivably be a bit of overlap with the construction sector.
Senator Wallin: A bit of overlap, okay. However, they would be hired under a different system if they were accessing the Helmets to Hardhats program; is that not right?
Ms. Pellerin: Yes, that is true.
Senator Wallin: You were talking about 2,000 jobs available from 200 employers. Is that a national figure?
Ms. Pellerin: Yes, it is.
Senator Wallin: It is hard to compare these numbers when you have 350 who have obtained employment. Why are those veterans not connecting with those jobs? If I understand the numbers, three quarters of these positions would be going unfilled or unselected.
Ms. Pellerin: Yes. Just to clarify, the job bank with the 2,000 job postings is available to veterans but not exclusively to veterans.
Senator Wallin: They are competing with the workplace in those programs. Is that right?
Ms. Pellerin: Yes. However, for Right Management, they do attract and post in their job bank ``veteran-friendly'' employers. All of these 200 companies are companies that are interested in hiring veterans.
Senator Wallin: Are they predisposed?
Ms. Pellerin: Yes.
Senator Wallin: Is there something about a mismatch of skills, or is it just the early stages of the program?
Ms. Pellerin: What Right Management and any career transition service offering will do is attempt to match the veteran's skills and experience with the right job.
In the case of Right Management, they would look at their veteran participants and reasonably match them to jobs in that job bank based on skills and experience.
Senator Wallin: It seems like there are a lot of jobs out there for the taking.
Ms. Pellerin: There are, yes.
The Chair: The chair would request a supplementary question. Inasmuch as you say you have moved this program to local communities, military people are posted every three to four years.
What is a local community for a person who keeps moving around? How is that established? How does the local community provider know about veterans and DND and all that kind of stuff? Who will feed that information to that local provider?
Ms. Pellerin: The community-based offering and feature of the new career transition model is targeted at veterans. Therefore, they would no longer still be serving; some will locate close to their base of release or perhaps relocate to their originating base or they may go elsewhere in Canada. They become veterans and citizens of the country and would access these services wherever they live.
What we do through our partnerships and work with charitable foundations and the private sector is educate potential employers and those who are supporting employment. We educate them on Veterans Affairs Canada and the merits of hiring veterans. We promote the skills and experience that veterans attain while in the military and so educate the private sector in that way.
The Chair: The guy will get released, move, and then he will find a job? I am not sure that is the way people are doing their analysis, but I will defer my questions for later and ask Senator Nolin to go ahead.
[Translation]
Senator Nolin: Good afternoon, ladies. Thank you for having accepted our invitation despite the bad weather. Ms. Pellerin, I would like to go back to your statement regarding the fact that the unemployment rate in the population in general is comparable to the unemployment rate among veterans.
Are you referring to the overall unemployment rate or more specifically to the unemployment rate corresponding to the age, gender or competencies of your beneficiaries? Is it comparable, or different, from that perspective?
[English]
Ms. Pellerin: The statistic that I quoted was a global statistic. It was based on some research done by our research department here at Veterans Affairs, and it showed generally that the unemployment rate for veterans is no different. Therefore, it is comparable with the overall unemployment rate for Canadians. I believe it is at the same age ranges, experience levels and so on.
I think Dr. David Pedlar provided a briefing to the committee some time ago on the life-after-service study.
[Translation]
Senator Nolin: Am I to understand that your approach to veterans' employment is much more proactive than reactive, in that you wait for the beneficiary to knock on your door and ask for your assistance?
Ms. Bastien, as director general, how do you view your responsibilities there? Do you think your approach is more proactive or more reactive?
Ms. Bastien: Our responsibility is more proactive. When we compared our operational methods to that of the Canadian Forces and National Defence, we realized that there was duplication with regard to the workshops that were provided to the members who were going to be voluntarily released in the near future.
In the armed forces, these members were already working with a personnel selection officer to prepare the game plan they would be following after they left the forces. We play a role after the member leaves, but also while he or she is still within the Canadian Forces. The idea of a national approach does not necessarily always meet the needs, especially the need to know the local market, and the opportunities that could open up for the veterans.
We adopted an approach aimed at eliminating the bureaucratic aspect and reducing the red tape around accessing these services, and also for practical reasons; when the individual knows where he wants to settle, whether he wants to stay in the same place once he has left the forces or go somewhere else, if he has contacted local suppliers, then we pay for the services of the supplier in the community where he or she wants to settle.
It is much more proactive, because the supplier knows the market much better than a company that works at the national level but does not have the necessary knowledge to help the member find work at the local level once he has left the forces.
Senator Nolin: Please allow me to say something, and you can correct me if I am mistaken. After everything you have just said to me, may I reasonably conclude that for each member who is about to leave the forces, you have a file with that member's name on it? Do I understand that you do everything that is needed to follow up on the member, not only before he or she leaves, but after he has left, to know how his job search and transition into civilian life is going? Am I right in saying that?
Ms. Bastien: No. When the person leaves the armed forces, we have a transition interview with the Department of Veterans Affairs, about six months before the release date; it can even occur two weeks before the release date. During that interview, we examine the person's needs. Often, the members, when they are released, do not really have any needs. However, we don't take any chances, we sit down with them and we have a transition interview.
Once they are released from the forces, it does happen that in the ensuing years these people do not really have any particular needs. Then it is not necessary to follow up with them since everything is going well. In such cases, for instance, perhaps a job was waiting for them when they were released, and they had no particular issues or problems related to their service. However, if in the next five or ten years, and this has happened, a problem related to their service crops up, the person can then ask for our services. It may be an occupational or professional issue; perhaps the person needs to redirect her career or has certain limitations. It may also be a medical or psychosocial problem.
We do not have a system. Many people have left the forces and we never heard anything more from them. Most of the time, it is because no news is good news, everything goes well and the transition went well. Be that as it may, we are there for those who do have problems, either when they are released or even later during their transition into civilian life.
Senator Nolin: In other words, you meet with them in the weeks or days preceding their release, but it is the member who decides to access your services or not. At that point, you open a file on that member — or not — and you follow his or her employment journey after the member has left the forces. Do I understand the situation correctly?
Ms. Bastien: Yes.
[English]
Senator Day: I am being left with the impression that your new initiatives will make it more difficult for the person in uniform who is leaving the Armed Forces. Previously, you were making every effort to make this a seamless transition and you worked together in these integrated support units at the various bases. Now you are telling us that you do not want to duplicate what the Armed Forces is doing. You are making it sound like you are creating two solitudes here. CAN you help me with this and put my mind at ease?
Ms. Bastien: Maybe I can start and then my colleagues can continue.
First, we have changed a very small portion of the program. When the CF member is doing the transition, I explained earlier that there is the transition interview. We have an organization and partnership with the CF and DND, the Integrated Personnel Support Centres. The CF member who is in the process of releasing meets with us and with the people at DND and the CF, and we have a transition interview. Depending on his or her needs, a suite of programs and services can be offered, either through the DND and the CF or through Veterans Affairs Canada.
The particular program we are talking about this morning is Career Transition Services. This is when the CF member is voluntarily releasing and for some reason maybe does not have a job or career lined up after his release, and then he will look at what is available out there.
There was already a system in place within the CF dealing with the personnel selection officer and educational grants and other programs to assist CF members, when they are thinking about releasing from the forces, to position them to transition into civilian life. In 2006 with the New Veterans Charter we added another suite of programs to assist. In this case, when we are talking about the specific program aimed at voluntary releases, it is for individuals who do not have any medical issues — or at least known medical issues — that would hinder or be an obstacle in the transition.
It is a question of getting employment. A number of members make the decision to be released from the forces because they have something lined up after. Then we are working with other organizations, in partnership with HRSDC and others, and working with the local provider community. Once they know where they want to settle, whether it is remaining where they are currently based or moving to another site, it is important to get the service of a provider that is better informed or more knowledgeable about what is available in that community.
Senator Day: Ms. Bastien, tell me: When does the soon-to-become veteran learn about your services? After she or he is out of uniform or at the interview, before he or she is gone?
Ms. Bastien: There are several ways that the member can learn about our services. There are what we call SCAN seminars, which are given on bases while members are still in uniform and which explain to them what is available to them within the Canadian Forces and from Veterans Affairs. When we meet for the transition interview, we also go through with them what is available from Veterans Affairs and from the CF, before the release and after the release.
Senator Day: Is this an optional interview, and only a small percentage of retiring Armed Forces personnel go to that interview?
Ms. Bastien: The transition interview, yes, is optional. There is an intake.
Ms. Pellerin: If I may, the Canadian Forces has made it mandatory, if you will, for medically releasing. Our overall catchment for the transition interview is running at about 80 per cent for both medical and non-medical releases. We have quite a high proportion of releasing members who do, in fact, have a transition interview.
Senator Day: What percentage of non-medical? Is that 80 per cent of non-medical or are you combining the two?
Ms. Pellerin: I am combining the two. It is about 72 per cent for the non-medical.
Senator Day: Right Management is the company that was a contractor up until a short while ago. Will that company continue to exist in Canada?
Ms. Pellerin: It is an international company. It does have a base in Canada. I would not know whether they intend to continue to operate in Canada.
Senator Day: What about the copyright with respect to the 200 companies they have in their database? Have you acquired that from them or is it gone?
Ms. Pellerin: It is proprietary, so it does belong to Right Management.
Senator Day: Was Right Management paid for out of Veterans Affairs' budget prior to your ending that contractual relationship?
Ms. Pellerin: There was a contract in place, and of course since 2007, when the contract was let, we have been paying for the services provided by Right Management to Veterans Affairs.
Senator Day: It sounds like a significant number, 5,475 people over five years, over a thousand a year. How do you anticipate picking up that number with Right Management gone?
Ms. Pellerin: The bulk of the participants in the workshop, 90 per cent or thereabouts, are still in uniform. As I said in my presentation, with Budget 2012, the Department of National Defence now assumes full responsibility for Career Transition Services while the member is still in uniform. We expect that the Department of National Defence will be providing services where Veterans Affairs will now no longer be providing them.
Senator Day: You also told us that you thought workshops worked well, that the three-day workshop was a good initiative, but it is being cancelled here. Was this Right Management contract cancelled for budgetary reasons?
Ms. Pellerin: It was cancelled because of the Budget 2012 decision to ensure that the Department of National Defence took sole responsibility for these services while in uniform. Understanding that Veterans Affairs services to date had to a significant degree been provided to still-serving members, it was felt that a national contract would not be in our best interests.
Senator Day: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
The Chair: Thank you, Senator Day.
When did you start doing those workshops within DND? What was the call for you to do that in the first place; do you recall that history?
Ms. Pellerin: It would have been part of the design of the Career Transition Services, and it was an effort to reach into the Department of National Defence to get at that population that was preparing to release.
When we went to contract a request for proposals to provide the service, the bids that came in and the successful bidder, Right Management, provided the option of a three-day workshop, primarily while members were still serving, to, as I said, prepare them for that release, for job search and employment.
The Chair: Your response tells me that the requirement has not been eliminated. It is the service that has been eliminated. The SCAN programs and the personnel selection officers have been there since the early 1970s. All of a sudden, Veterans Affairs Canada acknowledges with DND — and it came out of discussions at the ADM level — the need to provide much more proactive, transitional capability to the members because some of them are flipping into a whole new way of life. Veterans Affairs got engaged in this. Nobody said this morning that the requirement is not there. All we have said is that we do not want to duplicate, which does not tell me that DND is necessarily picking this up. Will they do the job that you were doing, meeting the requirements that we are looking for?
Ms. Pellerin: I do not know. That would probably be a question best answered by the Department of National Defence in terms of what exactly they are going to offer.
Ms. Burke: I think it is fair to say that the actual workshops were centred around resumé writing and things like that. That is exactly the type of work that the base personnel selection officers are doing. A lot of confusion existed at the local base level about who to go to for support. Base selection officers were assisting serving members. Veterans Affairs was doing it as well. Sometimes it resulted in delays in service because they were waiting to determine which one was on first. A lot what was offered through the workshops in terms of the counselling and the resumé writing will continue to be done by the base selection officers. This is really trying to eliminate the confusion and the duplication and to ensure that the member knows precisely where to go to get support. As Ms. Bastien indicated, most do very well in transition and get employment. That is simply because of the good work National Defence has been doing with their Transition Assistance Program and their services on the base and the way that they have been reaching out to the private sector and to public companies and organizations. Veterans who can benefit from further resumé writing, assistance and career counselling are the small group that will transition into veterans' programs. It will be done seamlessly through the Integrated Personnel Support Centres.
The Chair: If it was not that useful, there would not have been 5,500 people taking it.
Senator Wallin: I want to clarify this because people are coming at this with a preconceived notion. If I understand this correctly, what some of these changes mean for Career Transition Services is that the CF and the Department of National Defence will look after serving soldiers, and the Department of Veterans Affairs will look after people who are released and, therefore, veterans.
Ms. Pellerin: That is correct.
Senator Wallin: Everyone will get looked after; they will just stay where they belong — soldiers with the CF and veterans with Veterans Affairs.
Ms. Pellerin: That is correct.
Senator Wallin: Services have not been reduced, taken away or denied; they are just being provided by a different provider.
Ms. Burke: That is correct.
Senator Wallin: Some of those services might be provided on contract from other companies, local service providers.
Ms. Pellerin: That is right.
Senator Wallin: There is no sense that anyone is being denied something that they got last week or last year?
Ms. Pellerin: That is correct. The service is not being removed.
Senator Wallin: Good. I just wanted to clarify that. Thank you.
The Chair: I wish to clarify also. It is important because you are seeking these clarifications for people. A person is a veteran while still serving, is he not?
Ms. Burke: Under our legislation, as you know, senator, the mandate for Veterans Affairs Canada is for veterans. Our legislation is really what drives the benefits and services provided and to whom. When a member releases, that is when the Veterans Affairs mandate comes into play and when the majority of programs and services are offered.
The Chair: For voluntary releases but not for those who seek rehabilitation or have been injured, correct?
Ms. Burke: Those who seek rehabilitation and have been injured are provided with rehabilitation services — medical and vocational — through Integrated Personnel Support Services and joint case management plans. It is when they release from military service that these things are provided by Veterans Affairs Canada.
The Chair: We will follow this up because it is not the way, I believe, that the process is going. I will bring clarification to the Senate team.
I have one last question, about training. A thousand dollars is a number out there. Does that actually meet the normal scheme of things? Is it enough money or too much? Have you based it on something for both professionals and people who are technically skilled, including the infantryman who is coming out without easily transferable skills?
Ms. Pellerin: The Career Transition Services do not include training. They are geared toward career counselling and job-finding assistance. It does not include any formal training. The service providers would work with the veteran to understand their skills and experience and to help them prepare for a comparable job in the civilian sector. It does not include training. Our Vocational Rehabilitation Program, though, does include a training component. Those would be for the medically released or those with a service-related rehab need.
The Chair: Thank you very much. That was quite significant.
Any other questions?
Senator Day: Our researchers had indicated to us that in the U.K., the job transition program was much more successful than it has been in Canada. I wonder if you have been aware of that and if you have any comment in that regard?
Ms. Pellerin: I cannot say that I know a great deal about the U.K. program other than a recent conference that I attended with some U.K. officials. They have been working quite extensively with the private sector and with the charitable foundations in Britain to really foster the importance of employing veterans once they have released from the military.
Here in Canada, our outreach program is modeled somewhat on the best practices that are being employed in Britain and in other jurisdictions.
Senator Day: Right Management operates in the U.K.?
Ms. Pellerin: Yes.
The Chair: Could we be provided with the outreach program that you have, if you do not mind, to assist us in this?
Thank you very much for that.
Thank you, senators. Thank you, witnesses, for being available. We hope that there has been no damage to your homes and so on through the storm, and we hope you do not get snow either.
Honourable senators, this session is over.
(The committee adjourned.)