Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Issue 26 - Evidence - Meeting of May 6, 2015
OTTAWA, Wednesday, May 6, 2015
The Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade met this day at 4:15 p.m. to examine such issues as may arise from time to time relating to foreign relations and international trade generally (topic: Egypt- Africa relations).
Senator A. Raynell Andreychuk (Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Chair: Honourable senators, the Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade is authorized to examine such issues as may arise from time to time relating to foreign relations and international trade generally.
Under our broad mandate, we are pleased to welcome officials from the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development Canada to speak on Egypt-Africa relations. We have before us Mr. Dennis Horak, Director, Middle East Relations. Mr. Horak, as you were told, we have been following generally all of the issues that are confronting many of our partners in the countries that we have bilateral relations with. Egypt, of course, has gone through a trying time, but Egypt has recently indicated its look south, a traditional role that it had in the past. In these turbulent times, it would be interesting for us to be updated on that aspect, as well as anything else you may wish to tell us about the process politically, economically and otherwise in Egypt.
Welcome to the committee.
Dennis Horak, Director, Middle East Relations, Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development Canada: Thank you, honourable senators, and good afternoon. I will begin with the statement and then obviously open to questions in case there are other issues that we haven't addressed. I have some colleagues with me as well, dealing on the Africa side, who can also add to what I have to say.
Honourable senators, I am pleased to be here today to address the Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade on Egypt's evolving relationship with Africa, including East Africa.
To illustrate Egypt's renewed commitment towards engaging positively with Africa, I will also touch on its approach of hydro diplomacy to the Grand Ethiopian Renaissance Dam.
As you know, Egypt has long shared historical, political, security and cultural ties with the African continent, given its unique location in the Middle East and North Africa region. During the latter years of the Mubarak era, Egypt's diplomatic engagement with Africa waned, to the dismay of many African partners. Following the removal of former President Morsi in 2013, Egypt was formally suspended from the African Union.
This indifference and disengagement on both sides is now beginning to change. Following the election of President el-Sisi last June and in response to diplomatic outreach by the new government, the African Union reinstated Egypt to full status. President el-Sisi has participated in the biannual African Union Summit. Egypt is once again seeking to engage in Africa, particularly with East Africa, on issues of political trade, development and security, given their shared and intersecting nexuses.
Egypt's renewed interest in Africa has been warmly welcomed by Egypt's African partners, who are keen to see Egypt reengage on areas of mutual concern in the African continent. This change of posture is aligned with Egypt's efforts to reassert itself as a leader in the broader Middle East and North Africa region.
Egypt's interests in Africa and the focus of its diplomatic efforts are multifaceted. Egypt and countries from East Africa share concerns about illegal migration, refugee flows and their related impact on regional security. Indeed, Egypt, along with Sudan, Eritrea and 30 other European and African nations, are signatories to the Khartoum Process, which is an agreement aimed at improving coordination and building capacity to counter illegal migration.
Egypt has also established an African social fund aimed at providing training and technical assistance to help address the needs of poor and vulnerable communities. Given its concerns about regional security, Egypt has also positioned itself as a centre for regional training and has provided training to fellow police from African countries.
Since the change of government last June, Egypt has also sought to strengthen its capacity to attract foreign investment and development assistance. Indeed, as we have seen in the media, Egypt is open for business. To this end, President Abdel Fattah el-Sisi has been focused on expanding Egypt's trade, investment and long-term development, including through collaboration with Africa.
As you may have seen, Egypt hosted a successful Egypt Economic Development Conference in Sharm el-Sheikh from March 13 to 15 of this year that was attended by 10 African heads of state. It was during this conference that two Canadian companies signed business agreements with Egypt worth approximately $7 billion.
In addition, later this month we expect to see the long-awaited tripartite, free trade zone launched in Cairo that will stretch from Egypt to South Africa. This zone will serve to connect 590 million consumers in the 26 member countries of three existing trade blocs — the common market for eastern and southern Africa, the East African community and the South African development community. In turn, this will serve to foster deeper trade and investment relationships between Egypt and Africa.
A good example of Egypt's changing approach to Africa is the manner in which it has approached negotiations on the Grand Ethiopian Renaissance Dam since President el-Sisi was elected last June. In its pursuit of hydro diplomacy, Egypt has been keen to engage with other African countries, specifically Ethiopia and Sudan, on the Grand Ethiopian Renaissance Dam, given the significant impact the dam will have on the Egyptian population.
Initial discussions between Ethiopia, Sudan and Egypt with respect to the Grand Ethiopian Renaissance Dam proved difficult, given that the Egyptians felt threatened by the potential diversion by Ethiopia of Blue Nile waters to the detriment of Egypt's traditional Nile water usage.
In March of this year, after years of tensions and negotiations, the governments of Egypt, Sudan and Ethiopia reached a tentative agreement, during which they signed a declaration of principles on how to approach the construction of the Grand Ethiopian Renaissance Dam. The agreement covers 10 principles, ranging from cooperation, development and confidence-building to information and data sharing, sovereignty and the peaceful settlement of disputes.
The progress on Egyptian-African negotiations with respect to the Grand Ethiopian Renaissance Dam has largely been attributed to Egyptian President el-Sisi government's efforts to positively engage in hydro diplomacy with his Ethiopian and Sudanese counterparts.
In turn, the success of these efforts have renewed the dialogue between Egypt, Ethiopia and Sudan in other areas of mutual interest, including migration, regional security, shared resources and a vision for ensuring the future of the African continent, including Egypt.
Egypt is also actively engaged in outreach in other parts of the continent. In early April, Egypt hosted South Africa's President Jacob Zuma. Both leaders agreed to improve bilateral cooperation in a number of areas, including trade and infrastructure, as well as global institutional reform.
We can expect to see more effort from Egypt in the future to engage with Africa, particularly in the lead-up to its bid for the African seat on the United Nations Security Council, for which elections take place this fall.
Egypt's outreach is not only limited to Africa, as we have seen from their recent engagement on key issues of concern facing the international community. Indeed, they are a key partner in ensuring security and stability in the Middle East, an ally in the efforts to address the so-called Islamic state of the Levant and a central commercial partner. We expect to see Egypt engage more widely with neighbours and friends near and far as it continues its transition to democracy.
Canada is supportive in these efforts. Egypt is a key player in Africa and the Middle East. We believe it is important that Egypt exercise its natural leadership in addressing the full range of regional, political, economic and social challenges, even while it grapples with pressing internal security and transitional issues.
Thank you. Are there any questions?
The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Horak. There is one area that perhaps you could touch on a bit. It is not Africa directly. This committee has studied Turkey. In our study, we continually saw the broad reach of Turkey in investment and trade and political movement. There was much discussion from witnesses before us and with our counterparts in Turkey about some of the tensions between the assertiveness of Turkey, which was traditionally Egypt's role, and perhaps some of the tensions because of that, or otherwise, between Turkey and Egypt. Could you comment on that?
Mr. Horak: There have been tensions. There's no question about it. They certainly came to a head with the removal of Morsi, who was pretty heavily supported by President Erdogan in Turkey. That has become an issue. It remains an issue. Turkey was very highly critical of el-Sisi's ascension to power. That is still an issue.
Turkey also, as you mentioned, has begun to play a much more assertive role throughout the region. It is a role that Egypt has traditionally played, as you note. I'm not sure that the rivalry is really tied as much to that as it was to the issue of the Muslim Brotherhood and the treatment of Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt and the removal of Morsi.
You are right. To a degree, there is some of that concern on Egypt's side that perhaps Turkey may be filling a vacuum that its own internal problems in Egypt have created.
There are some efforts at reconciliation. Certainly Turkey has had issues with other countries in the region as well, certainly in the Gulf States, and there are efforts at reconciliation there to try and build a more common front in dealing with the Syrian crisis. That, I think it is hoped, will have a positive impact on the relationship between Turkey and Egypt as well, over time.
Senator Downe: I would like to follow up on the chair's question. You mentioned the Syrian crisis. We hear about the large number of refugees that Lebanon and Turkey have taken in. What have the Egyptians done in comparison to those countries?
Mr. Horak: There is a substantial Syrian refugee population in Egypt. It is not of the same magnitude as we see in Lebanon and Syria. I don't have the numbers offhand, but I want to say somewhere in the neighbourhood of 35,000. It is a burden for them particularly given the problems that Egypt has been going through the last several years. It is an issue and concern for them, for sure.
Senator Downe: Are they providing any support to other countries in the region to take refugees to try to keep them out of Egypt?
Mr. Horak: Egypt is not really in a position at this stage to provide much in the way of support to anybody. Their economy has taken a big hit over the last several years. They're fighting a pretty violent insurgency themselves in the Sinai. They sort of view their battle in the Sinai as essentially their contribution in the fight against ISIL because one of the main extremist groups in northern Sinai has affiliated itself with ISIS. They view that as another front in the same war. That's their contribution, essentially.
Senator Downe: Tell me about the growing refugee problem in Europe and the role Egypt plays in that. Do any of these people pass through Egypt? When you speak to European parliamentarians, they obviously question their capacity for absorbing all of these people. I had one parliamentarian tell me they may get half a million people this year in Europe, or higher. Of course, the Europeans are saying — well, there are two schools. One is, "We have to stop them,'' and the second school is, "We have to pour money into that area so people will stay where they are and improve their quality of life.'' Is Egypt involved in that in any way, shape or form?
Mr. Horak: Yes, there are some refugees. Again, I don't have the numbers on that. A lot of them, for the most part, are going through Libya, because it is so anarchic at the moment and it's easier and the border controls essentially don't exist. There is a process, the Khartoum Process, which is involving a number of countries — Sudan, Eritrea, 30 European and African countries — to try and address the refugee and migration flows. It is certainly a constant concern for them. The Egyptians have enough problems to deal with at the moment.
I think the geography of the area lends itself more to Libya and Tunisia in terms of the access to Europe. It is closer.
Senator Downe: My last question is about Israel and Egypt. I know that when the Muslim Brotherhood was in power there were attacks into Israel from the territory. Has that border been solidified with the change of government? Is there still a problem or a high security threat in that area?
Mr. Horak: The relationship between Egypt and Israel, certainly on the security side, is quite good, actually. There's been a lot of cooperation. The Israelis have been very cooperative on the Camp David treaty that put restrictions on the amount and level of troops that the Egyptians could introduce to the Sinai. Because of the war the Egyptians have wanted to introduce higher levels of military into the Sinai and the Israelis have cooperated fully with that. That's been good.
There's always been security cooperation. Even under Morsi, to a degree, under the former government, there was cooperation between the militaries and security. The new government has also taken a very hard line on Hamas and has kept the border crossing, the Rafah border crossing with Egypt and Gaza essentially closed. They have done what they could to try to eliminate the tunnels. They set up a buffer area which keeps expanding. The last I saw, it was a kilometre long. They have moved out houses and people from that area to prevent the tunnels from going underneath from Egypt into Gaza.
They have been absolutely much more focused on the problem than was the case previously than under Mubarak.
Senator Ataullahjan: Egypt is a close ally of Saudi Arabia. It recently took part in the coalition against the Houthis in Yemen. How is this alliance perceived by the African countries at a time when Egypt is trying to be more engaged in Africa?
Mr. Horak: To be honest, I don't know how the Africans would perceive it. I don't know if my colleagues have any ideas but my best guess would be I don't think they would have a problem with it.
The support that's provided by the Saudis and others in the Gulf is aimed at trying to stabilize Egypt and get Egypt back on its feet economically, socially and politically. I would think that for the Africans that's a good-news story for them. Anything that helps Egypt stabilize and be able to take its rightful place and not have to worry about essentially where its next meal is coming from I think is a good thing for Africa and I think they would probably view it that way as well.
Senator Ataullahjan: You mentioned there was a very strong showing of African nations at the recent Egyptian economic development conference in Sharm el-Sheikh. In addition to Africa, Egypt also seems to want to attract Asian investment. The China Development Bank would provide Egyptian banks with credit to finance projects. Would this have any impact on their relationships with the African nations? For example, Egypt is planning its largest national public and private partnership, the Suez Canal Zone project. How will that impact relationship? That's something that will affect the African countries.
Mr. Horak: I think certainly Chinese investment in Egypt again would contribute to its economic development and its prosperity and that's good for Africa. The Suez Canal project again, insofar as it is able to help the transit of goods through the canal area, could benefit African countries. I don't see a negative for them and they would certainly benefit from it as well. In an effort to try and increase the transit and increase the traffic through the Suez Canal, it has to be a benefit for Africa as well.
Senator Ataullahjan: Are there any security concerns that would be associated with the Suez Canal with everything is changing in that part of the world?
Mr. Horak: We worry, obviously, that any of these sorts of key infrastructure sites, be it the canal or whatever, are potential targets, potential choke points for terrorists. Certainly the Egyptians are aware of this and aware of the risks and put a high priority on the security of the canal, as do the other countries in the region.
It is like the rest of infrastructure anywhere, really, it is at risk. It is something that all countries in the region are conscious about. I don't know if that was the nature of your question or not.
Senator Ataullahjan: I wanted to know considering the way Egypt has its own issues.
Mr. Horak: It is a concern. It is a potential choke point for them and it is a substantial source of revenue for them, which is why they're building a new one to try to increase the traffic flow through it. It is important to them, there's no question about that. They recognize that. They will do what they can to try to secure it as will other partners for sure. Nobody wants to see any ships, or whatever, be held hostage in the canal or for the canal to cease to be a viable waterway because of the threat of terrorism. It is too important.
Senator Dawson: You mentioned in passing two contracts, $7 billion. I was wondering if you had more details about in what field of activity and is there potential for more development in those types of sectors for other Canadian companies that are dealing with Egypt?
Mr. Horak: To be perfectly honest, I can't remember one of them. I can remember the other one, which was in the hospitality sector. It was hotels and the like. I want to say the other one was telecommunications but to be honest, senator, I have forgotten; it has slipped my mind. We can pass that information on to you.
Senator Dawson: To take the example of tourism, then, if they're re-launching their tourism industry there is potential for Canadian companies and Canadian partnerships whether it is hotels or Cirque du Soleil, or whatever.
Mr. Horak: Yes.
Senator Dawson: There is hope for the rebuilding of a tourism industry in Egypt.
Mr. Horak: I think so. We hope so, let's put it that way. Egypt is reliant still to a large degree for a huge amount of its economy on the tourism trade. It has taken a huge hit. It is a job generator; it is a revenue generator. Everything down to the guy who sells you little trinkets at the pyramids through to hotel management and all the way through the tourism supply chain. It is a huge moneymaker potentially for Egypt and it has taken a big hit.
The last few times I have gone to Egypt, the hotels are empty, frankly. Although the last time I went, last November, it was better. There were businesspeople in the hotels; there were some tourists who were coming back. But it is a tough sell. The whole region is a tough sell on the tourism side and it is all linked up with the security element.
The tourism infrastructure is there; the tourist sites are obviously there. It all comes back to security. I think there is a desire to convey that confidence. Tourism is about confidence. I think the deal is about hotel management and about supporting Egypt's basic economic development and stability because they are aimed at boosting that confidence.
Senator Dawson: I guess they're rejoining the Africa group. Senator Ataullahjan and I are both active on the Inter- Parliamentary Union and we were faced with the fact that since their Parliament had sort of disappeared, should we consider them as partners in a parliamentary union? The reality is that since the objective was to reemerge as a democracy, it was difficult for us to say while you are making that effort to become more democratic, we're going to tell you to stay on the sidelines because we don't want you as a member.
We have had that challenge. I'm happy that they're back in the Africa group. That was more a comment.
On the dam project, the biggest challenge of resources is water that they is shared with Ethiopia, Sudan and Egypt. Are these dam projects done in a peaceful —
Mr. Horak: Cooperative way?
Senator Dawson: Yes, in a cooperative way.
Mr. Horak: That's the attempt right now. I think the Egyptians had real concerns that the Ethiopians were pushing this along unilaterally and didn't take into consideration enough Egypt's needs and the risks to Egypt. This has been a source of tension, but there's recognition on both sides and there's been interventions by others to try and push this along to try and bring them together and to try and find common solutions on that. We have seen that. We have seen it recently in terms of some of the cooperative measures that I mentioned in my statement, sort of this declaration of principles that they have come out with and to try and set the framework, if you will, to have it more cooperative in the way they approach this. Everybody is working toward that, let's put it that way.
Senator Oh: Would you be able to tell the committee a little about the Arab Spring movement that started in 2011 and pulled down the Mubarak government and created the wildfire effect in the Middle East? What was the Arab Spring effect on Egypt itself, and also as it spread elsewhere in the Middle East?
Mr. Horak: Right. For the most part I think we're of the view that the Arab Spring has now passed, that there was a lot of momentum to try and change the course, change the political structures and the way in which a lot of countries in the region governed themselves, with mixed results, frankly.
We can probably say the only one that successfully transitioned was Tunisia, relatively peacefully. Throughout the rest of the region, frankly, we have seen problems with the way things happened.
Egypt was the next domino, if you will, that went. It did have elections. There were problems with that. There were problems with the government that was elected. There were massive demonstrations. And before chaos really took hold, we had a new government that came in led by the military.
In Libya, we are still dealing with the consequences of the rebellion against Gadhafi. In Syria, the rebellion against Assad continues and 200,000-plus are dead. Since then, we haven't seen much in the way of momentum or any sort of movement towards a new or sustained Arab Spring. It will be a while before we see that accelerated pace of reform.
That being said, there may be reforms that come organically or internally and we will see what happens with Egypt. Egypt remains committed to restoring democratic rule, and they have made important steps towards that in terms of a new constitution, elected president. It looks like the parliamentary elections are slated to go ahead this fall and hopefully those will take place.
These are different kinds of steps, and we will see. It has been difficult, for sure.
Senator Cordy: I'm going back to trade investment, which Senator Dawson spoke about. In your opening remarks you spoke about Egypt being open for business. I think that was the quote you used. I'm wondering, is there trust by other countries that investments in Egypt would actually be beneficial to Egypt and of course to the investor?
Mr. Horak: Yes and no. There are billions of dollars being poured in by various countries to try and help stabilize in terms of budget support, but also budget support that are investments in housing and things like that. The economic conference did attract a lot of countries, companies. How many deals will come out of that remains to be seen. How many deals that came out of it and will actually materialize into something remains to be seen.
The business community is rightly nervous about the entire region, frankly, and certainly Egypt is facing a violent insurgency. On the other hand, I think there's recognition that there is a ton of potential in Egypt, that it is the largest Arab country in the region, largest Arab country in the world. It has untapped potential.
There's a lot of interest. It is a game that is still in progress I think we can say. I wouldn't say we're overly bullish, but we're increasingly hopeful it is a place that will be able to fulfill its potential. Certainly the el-Sisi government has talked very strongly about the need to attract more investment and is not shy about foreign investment in a way that perhaps previous governments might have been.
Senator Cordy: You mentioned tourism, and rightfully so because it is basically nonexistent or very minimal at this point and years ago everybody wanted to travel to Egypt. Aside from tourism, what other areas are there for countries to invest in to help with economic development in the country?
Mr. Horak: I'm reluctant to give an exhaustive list. There are some minerals, there is manufacturing to a degree, construction, infrastructure development, those sorts of things are good matches.
I will have to get back to you if you want a more exhaustive list. I should have qualified the tourism issue slightly. I'm told that one part of Egypt still continues apparently to attract a similar number of tourists as they always had, and that's the Sharm el-Sheikh, the beach area. It's very popular with the Russians and increasingly so, apparently. I'm not sure I believe that, but it is possible.
Senator Cordy: That's the information you are getting?
Mr. Horak: That's the information we're getting. In terms of the sectors, honestly I would have to get back to you on that.
Senator Demers: Thank you for your presentation. You mentioned Mr. el-Sisi several times. This committee has met different people. There's always the subject of corruption. Do you sense with this group, from what you hear when you go there, that Mr. el-Sisi is well surrounded and he could go forward with the plans of the future?
Mr. Horak: I think so.
Senator Demers: Do you sense that?
Mr. Horak: I do. He has a vision of where he wants to take this. Egypt has been reliant to a large degree on support from other countries as well, and the Gulf countries in particular, the UAE and Saudi. There are certain things they want and how they want this economy to develop that presumably benefits them and their investors, which I think is not a bad thing.
That being said, corruption in Egypt was pretty endemic and widespread, and some of those players who were benefiting in the old days are still around. Those sorts of nuts are pretty tough to crack. The Egyptian military was extremely involved in wide sectors of the Egyptian economy, and that's probably going to be with us for a while yet.
With some of these countervailing pressures, I think el-Sisi realizes that the economy has to function differently than it did before, and it needs to be a place that's attractive and attracts foreigners. He understands what foreigners are going to require.
The answer is yes and no. I think he genuinely understands. Whether he has the ability to do everything that needs to be done remains to be seen. Once they get a parliament, maybe there will be another pressure point to change the economy, the economic structure in the way it is organized that could be beneficial as well. The jury is still out.
Senator Demers: Do you sense that he's well surrounded with people because one person can't do everything by himself, the army's always a problem in different areas. Do you sense, from what you hear from the background when you or your people go there, that he's going to get some kind of support, there are people on his side?
Mr. Horak: We're hearing that he does have good people around him. He has good advisers. He has advisers both internally and externally, some of whom are there on a long-term basis and are providing good advice. On that front, I think it is good. He is getting answers to questions that he needs to ask.
We don't know what we don't know, and it is a pretty deep state.
[Translation]
Senator Rivard: In your presentation, you said that Africa was going to bid for an African seat on the Security Council. Sorry, I'm going to start over. In your presentation, you said that Egypt was going to bid on the African seat on the United Nations Security Council. Does that mean that there isn't a seat on the council for a Middle Eastern country?
[English]
Mr. Horak: I'm not sure I understood. I'm not sure I heard the question. You said there are no seats available for —
[Translation]
Senator Rivard: No, I am asking you. Egypt is part of the Middle East but is preparing its bid for the African seat on the Security Council. Am I to understand, then, that the council does not have a seat for a country from the Middle East?
[English]
Mr. Horak: That's right.
[Translation]
Senator Rivard: What are the tangible benefits, if any, of having a seat on the UN Security Council, aside from the prestige of being able to say that you're a Security Council member?
[English]
Mr. Horak: I think that's up to each individual country to decide what Security Council membership brings them and what it doesn't. I'm sure that factors into their decisions. I'm not sure I would want to comment on what Egypt sees in being a member of the council and what it doesn't. I'll just leave it at that, if I could.
The Chair: Could I ask the question from a different perspective? We were looking at Africa. One of the difficulties in the UN structures has been bloc voting. You have the African union and also the Islamic group who have been putting forward candidates. Egypt straddles many of those groups, so I think the question could be: Do they see an advantage for representing the African or the national side? Are we clear on it?
We have always tracked who is being put forward and why and what advantage it may or may not be for a Canadian relationship.
Mr. Horak: Right. A lot of countries that belong to these various groups and blocs would use those as part of their selling pitch about, well, you know, we can be the voice of the Africans, of the Arabs or of the Islamic groups. Those would all be factors in a country's campaign to get elected. As Australia would point to the fact that they were members of the Commonwealth, members of various Asian blocs, et cetera, and would look to sort of represent those, both legitimately and as part of their campaign. Other countries view it, as the senator was saying, as an issue of prestige. We are a great power and therefore we belong in the council of the great powers. Some view it in those terms as well. Whether or not that is driving Egypt, I don't know what their motivations are.
I should say, generally, and again it is not something that we track on a regular basis as there are others in our department who do monitor these campaigns in these elections much more strictly than we do in my bureau, but I do believe that the Egypt candidacy is what is called a clean slate. They have no opponent, so they will likely be elected.
[Translation]
Senator Rivard: Thank you for clarifying that. That was an excellent answer.
As for my other question, you are probably going to tell me that you can't comment, or don't wish to. I'm convinced it has to do with prestige. If you were an expert on the UN, what would you say about Canada's losing its seat on the UN Security Council?
[English]
Mr. Horak: I don't really think that's for me to say. It is not my area.
The Chair: I could answer that. I will leave that one alone.
Senator Dawson: I could answer it, too.
The Chair: We could have a round table on that one.
Senator MacDonald: Early in your remarks, you alluded to sort of an increasing tug-of-war between Turkey and Egypt with regard to their influence. As somebody who is increasingly concerned about the conduct of the Turkish government and the way they're drifting away from the west, I wonder if you could elaborate on your comments.
Mr. Horak: I can elaborate from the Egyptian side, but not so much from the Turkish side, which I don't obviously follow as closely, but we do know what is going on. It is not entirely unusual. Turkey has always had a role in the Middle East, back to the Ottomans. They have tended to wane back and forth, I think, in terms of what their major focus is. Is it going to be the Europe, Middle East or both? Is it going to be the bridge? But it has always had a role, so that's clear.
Egypt has also played a major influencing role, just because of its size; the role it plays in Arab culture, anywhere from the Egyptian TV shows that are broadcast from Cairo, all over the Arab-speaking world; and newspapers, magazines that are Egyptian or based in Cairo. It is just the size of the place. So it has always had a role and it has exercised that role. We have certainly seen it on Palestinian-Israeli issues where Egypt has often played a mediating and leadership role.
Again, I don't want to overplay the rivalry in terms of their role in the Middle East between Turkey and Egypt too much because, as I said, while Egypt feels it has this natural leadership role, they have been grappling with so much internally in the past little while that it is really not a huge primary focus at this point. That being said, they do feel that it is an important role for them and they don't take kindly if the Egyptians roll in and start complaining and trying to influence various groups. That might not be amenable to the new Egyptian government.
There is some of that. But the tensions, in many respects, are much more bilateral at the moment than regional.
Senator MacDonald: I have more of a practical question on a different subject. I would assume that Egypt would have legitimate concerns about the flow of water to the Nile River. Has there been any reassurance in terms of this Ethiopian dam?
Mr. Horak: That's been their concern. That's what these cooperative efforts are all about.
Senator MacDonald: There hasn't been an engineering study done that would show that —
Mr. Horak: I believe so. That's what this is all about. This is all about trying to ensure that the flow of water is not disrupted and so the cooperative effort that they're trying to build is absolutely aimed at that. I don't know the technicalities of the dam. I don't know all of the water flow issues or whatever the engineering issues are, but I can say that that's what the cooperative efforts that they're trying to get at right now are all about. They're trying to ensure the flow of water into the Nile is not affected and does not negatively impact those in Egypt who rely on the continued flow of water. Yes, it is a primary concern. That's really what it is all about.
The Chair: I have a number of questions. Ethiopia is landlocked and has virtually no ability to transfer anything through Eritrea. The new port that is being expanded in Djibouti is their line of supplies in and supplies out, including the railway that's being built, as well as the roads. It is a massive project on its own.
I understand from the Djibouti end that they need the Suez capacity to flow through — their goods. So to what extent is this whole dam thing the essence to protect the water to ensure that both sides get what they need, to get security and stability in the area? But we were also told that there will be new economic arrangements made, et cetera, and this will contribute to the security of all of the lands around there. What comment do you have?
Mr. Horak: I'm going to turn around here and see if my colleagues have anything.
Yannick Lamonde, Deputy Director, Southern and Eastern Africa Relations Division, Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development Canada: I'm not too familiar with that possibility, but of course Egypt would have an interest in having the Suez Canal open, but otherwise —
The Chair: Perhaps you can step up to the mike.
Mr. Horak: What he said was basically that there's nothing really he has to add on that at this point; but certainly, obviously, the Egyptians and everyone in the region, as I was saying earlier, have an interest in ensuring that the Suez Canal is functioning and able to take an increasing amount of shipping through the canal for the benefit of all countries in the region. None of us really has anything on Djibouti or the impact that that might have on Ethiopia's trade.
The Chair: Certainly the American presence being accelerated for the land issues of security are in Djibouti now, where I think some of them might have been through Egypt. And also the piracy initiatives with NATO and Canada are centred in Djibouti. I understood that some of Egypt's ventures will be including a country that we have not factored in too much — Djibouti. That has been driven by Ethiopia and its strategic position and trying to stabilize that Horn of Africa.
Mr. Horak: Right.
The Chair: It wasn't a trick question to catch you, Mr. Horak.
Mr. Horak: Before we go on, I have to confess a little bit, we haven't been focusing a lot on Egypt and Africa. We are aware of what they're doing, and we see it a little bit from the Egyptian side and they see it a little bit from the Africa side, but our focus when we look at Egypt has traditionally been North Africa and the Middle East.
Mr. Lamonde: With regard —
The Chair: Perhaps you could identify yourself.
Mr. Lamonde: I am Yannick Lamonde, the Deputy Director for Eastern Africa.
With regard to Djibouti, of course, I think you are right, it is of strategic importance. Secretary of State Kerry was there today on an official visit where he highlighted the importance of the cooperation between the United States and Djibouti. The United States is using Djibouti as a launching base for its military operation in the region. But for Canada it is not a country with which we have the same level of engagement. You have been there and you have seen what Canada's presence and interest is. It is more limited. But, of course, we recognize its importance.
The Chair: One of the things that would be interesting, Mr. Horak, to elaborate on is the fact that the size of Egypt and the population growth outside of the main urban centres was not catching up with the expectations and the needs of the people. So we were involved very much on development issues, and that's where the Muslim Brotherhood took hold because they were providing many of the services that the government was not under Mubarak's times.
What is being done, because that is part of security, to secure the full country? What kind of supports and attention is being given beyond the immediate inside of Cairo and Alexandria, et cetera? I understand the need to secure Egypt now and put it back on a democratic run, but we have concerns about human rights issues, we have concerns about how democratic the next elections will be, who will be allowed to run in the parties, so you seem to be optimistic. Where are the points of optimism? Is it that the government has made moves in all of these directions?
We know and watch the human rights, certainly the freedom of the press, and the Canadians involved in that.
Mr. Horak: If I could characterize it myself. I'm not sure "optimistic'' is the best word. "Hopeful,'' I think, is probably better; just one notch down from "optimism.''
All of the challenges you have mentioned are absolutely right. They're all concerns we share, for sure. Egypt's future is going to depend very much on its development track, where it goes. Is it going to be able to get its people back to work? Certainly with our development colleagues, we have been looking at ways to have an immediate impact. We have been working closely with other partners, the UAE, for example, and there's a recognition on their part and on the Egyptian part that what we need are things that have a development impact but also can have an immediate impact in terms of jobs and things like that, be it construction, housing, infrastructure projects, things along those lines, that can put people, young people, back to work. There is recognition of that for sure.
On the human rights side, yes, I agree completely there are absolutely issues that we have. We haven't liked the way everything has gone. We have spoken with the Egyptians about some of these issues. We have taken an approach with them. We feel it is more effective for us to do it directly with them as opposed to in the press. It is an approach we have taken and will continue to take with them.
As I mentioned, we're encouraged that they had the presidential elections and they went well. We're encouraged by their constitution as it is drafted and that that whole process went well. We have been disappointed that the parliamentary elections have been slow in coming together, but on the other hand it is important that they get them right. The last time maybe they rushed them, maybe there weren't opportunities for other parties, other groups apart from the Muslim Brotherhood who had a good infrastructure in place and were able to capitalize on that infrastructure.
We're hopeful that the delay will help to create an opportunity for proper political infrastructures of various kinds to come together and be able to operate effectively within the parliamentary elections that are going to be taking place. It is a plus and a minus on that score.
And certainly we're sympathetic to Egypt's current security challenges. They are facing huge problems in the Sinai. Some of those problems are leaching into Cairo from time to time, and they need to address those, absolutely, and there is always a risk that the focus on security could have an impact on broader freedoms. We have talked to them about those. We're working with them to try and develop assistance efforts that have those components in it so there's an understanding of, yes, there's a need to deal with security but there are other issues as well. These are some of the discussions we're having with them.
We're not pushing on a closed door on a lot of these things. What they're facing is what countries around the world have been facing: The balance between security and liberty and trying to find out where that is.
They're starting that debate internally in Egypt from a very different place than a lot of other countries in the world are starting from. So it is an ongoing discussion we have with them.
The Chair: Because of the recent shifts and changes and the new government, we haven't heard much about the Sudanese issue in Egypt. There has been much emphasis on the discrimination against the Sudanese that either had settled or were coming into Egypt because of the unrest in Egypt and the opportunities. Is that being flagged or raised or has it been subsumed with other issues?
Mr. Horak: To be honest, I don't have any information on that. We can get back to you.
The Chair: If you could get back.
Mr. Horak: Sudanese in Egypt, essentially?
The Chair: Yes. I think if you look into it there were specific issues of entrance visas working and being accepted into the communities.
Mr. Horak: Okay.
Senator Downe: What assistance do we currently provide to Egypt? Given the way the government changed with the military involvement, obviously Canada protested that originally. Did we reduce any assistance we're giving to the country and have we now increased it?
Mr. Horak: No, we didn't reduce. We actually understood why that happened. We weren't overly critical of what had happened and the removal of Morsi. Which removal are we talking about?
Senator Downe: That's the one.
Mr. Horak: The worst one, Morsi. This was preferable to the kind of chaos we think would have ensued had the demonstrations — millions and millions of people in the streets demonstrating against Morsi — continued and festered. We weren't sure what would happen. We weren't overly critical of the removal of Morsi. Subsequently, we didn't reduce our assistance, we increased our assistance. When Minister Baird was there last winter, he announced some additional projects and those projects are being developed now, working with Egyptians and others, to determine the actual amounts and what will be spent and where will it be spent and all those various things.
We're looking at a broad brush. Some of our assistance will be looking at longer term development issues which can have an immediate impact. We're talking with partners about that. We're looking at various other forms of assistance that we can provide to them. These are ongoing discussions.
Senator Downe: I don't want to put you on the spot because you are an official of the department. I will save the question for the ministers, but traditionally Canada's position has been that when a government has been removed that way, we normally do protest. But, again, it is a policy decision.
You indicated the assistance has gone up. How much has it gone up, roughly?
Mr. Horak: I don't have that for you. I can get back to you on the assistance, senator, I'm sorry.
Senator Dawson: Since we're talking of assistance, with the magic of Google, the two projects are Canada-based SkyPower, which is a project for solar energy; the other one is Fairmont's Raffles Hotels International.
Mr. Horak: I got one of them right.
Senator Dawson: In that spirit of cooperation — I wouldn't want to miss it; maybe we can discuss it over coffee — my colleague talked about the executive committee. The Security Council is the executive committee of the UN. It is like saying I don't want to be in cabinet because I might have too much prestige if I'm in cabinet. Canada was on the Security Council of the UN. That's when we negotiated the landmines agreement on behalf of many countries in the world because that's where you want to be in life, you want to be at the adults' table. The Security Council is the adult table at the UN.
[Translation]
"C'est la table des adultes aux Nations Unies,'' as they would say in French.
[English]
It's not just better cocktails; it's where you make decisions.
We can continue the discussion over coffee.
Mr. Horak: If I could go back to the previous senator's question, I don't have a problem with addressing the issue of what the position was on the removal of Morsi and why we did it. It is very brief.
Essentially, we believed that the Morsi government had increasingly tarnished its so-called democratic credentials in some of the policies he was bringing forward. We also felt that, with upwards of 20 million people on the streets protesting the government, the risks of this continuing, as it were, with massive opposition to the current government because of the way it was governing, at the end of the day the intervention of the military was necessary.
Senator Downe: Can you give me any examples in the last 10 years where a military coup has not been objected to by the Government of Canada?
Mr. Horak: I don't have that kind of information.
Senator Downe: Nor do I. That's why I want to talk to the minister.
Mr. Horak: I guess it is a question of whether or not we felt it was a military coup.
Senator Downe: Without the military would the government have changed? I'm only asking this because you won't engage. Without the military the government would not have changed. By many definitions that in itself is a military coup. The Government of Canada traditionally has objected to military coups for a change of government.
The Chair: Do you want to respond?
Mr. Horak: No. We could go on for an hour, but I will pass.
The Chair: Just a final quick question — I hope it is quick; you may not be able to answer it.
We're very concerned about Libya and the violence that continues there and ISIS being there. There is an initiative from North Africa to try and bring the parties together because ultimately it is a political decision and conciliation within the country. Algeria has been involved and some of the others. Is Egypt involved in that, or is it too consumed with its own issues? That is, this initiative that is coming from North Africa.
Mr. Horak: I'm not sure if they're directly involved in the initiative, but it is certainly something that would absolutely engage them. They are deeply concerned about what is happening on their western border and have a real interest in the transfer of weaponry, the transfer of fighters, and all of those issues.
I'm guessing, but I would imagine they're intimately involved and if not are intimately following it. They had previously launched attacks in Libya when some Egyptian citizens were beheaded. As you may recall, the Coptic Christians were beheaded on the beaches. They're intimately involved in this and I'm sure that they were involved in the process insofar as it exists.
The Chair: Mr. Horak, thank you for coming before us. We said we wanted to be updated on Egypt and Africa. You have done that, but we certainly led you into many other fields and you held your own on that.
We appreciate that we have received the kind of information that can perhaps lead us to look at this region more closely in the coming months and contribute to the foreign policy dialogue.
Thank you for coming this evening.
Mr. Horak: I will get back to the committee on some of these outstanding questions.
The Chair: Thank you very much. Senators, we're adjourned until tomorrow.
(The committee adjourned.)