Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Aboriginal Peoples
Issue 8 - Evidence - September 15, 2014 (Morning)
THUNDER BAY, Monday, September 15, 2014
The Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples met this day at 9:18 a.m. to continue its study on challenges relating to First Nations infrastructure on reserves.
Senator Dennis Glen Patterson (Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Chair: I would like to welcome you all, especially my Senate colleagues who are attending this meeting of the Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples. I am Dennis Patterson, chair of the committee. Our mandate is to examine legislation and matters relating to the Aboriginal peoples of Canada generally.
Today, we are happy to be in Thunder Bay to hear testimony on a specific order of reference authorizing us to examine and report on the challenges and potential solutions relating to infrastructure on reserves, including housing, community infrastructure and innovative opportunities for financing, and more effective collaborative strategies.
We have been studying this very important issue quite intensively since last November. We have held many months of hearings in Ottawa and have travelled to Nova Scotia to hold meetings and carry out onsite visits to see housing stock. For the remainder of this week, we are pleased to be visiting a number of Ontario First Nations as part of our ongoing fact-finding mission. In October, we are planning to travel to British Columbia as well. We believe that different regions of the country face unique challenges and that by travelling we gain a much better appreciation for the problems and potential solutions.
Before proceeding to the testimony and welcoming our first witness, I would like to go around the table and ask members of the committee to introduce themselves, beginning with our deputy chair.
Senator Dyck: Good morning and welcome to our witness. Good to be back. I am Lillian Dyck, deputy chair of the committee, from Saskatchewan.
Senator Moore: Good morning. Wilfred Moore from Nova Scotia. Welcome to you all.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: Good morning. Senator Lovelace Nicholas from New Brunswick.
Senator Sibbeston: Good morning. Senator Nick Sibbeston from the Northwest Territories.
Senator Tannas: Good morning. Scott Tannas from Alberta.
Senator Raine: I am Nancy Greene Raine from B.C.
The Chair: Colleagues, before welcoming our first witness, there has been a request to have media film the proceedings of the committee. I wonder if committee members would entertain a motion.
Senator Moore: Would you like a motion, chair, to that effect?
The Chair: Yes, please.
Senator Moore: So moved.
The Chair: It is moved that we allow filming of our proceedings all morning.
Senator Moore: For the duration of the meeting.
The Chair: For the duration of the meeting. Is it agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: I would now like to welcome our first witness. From the Temagami First Nation, we have Elizabeth Potts, Housing Coordinator.
We look forward to your presentation, which will be followed by questions from the senators.
These proceedings are being recorded. You have to hold the button down to be recorded. There will be a transcript available to the public so the microphone is needed to make sure that we don't miss a word.
Please go ahead, Ms. Potts.
Elizabeth (Liz) Potts, Housing Coordinator, Temagami First Nation: My name is Elizabeth Potts. I'm from the Temagami First Nation. I have recently been hired as the Housing Coordinator.
My First Nation is like one square mile and we have about 100 houses in the community. We have 16 CMHC units that are presently rent-to-own. A lot of the houses were built in the 1970s, the 1980s and early 1990s. Back then, they were two-by-four structures, gradually went to two-by-six and housing wrap was used, but now to change over and being compliant with the Ontario Building Code, structures that CMHC puts up are much more warmer because like we use HRV to circulate the air. The older homes have had RRAP programs, so they were brought up to the homeowner's standards where they are healthier and safer. A lot of these homes still need envelopes resealed with new insulation and proper drainage around the foundation and footings. So our housing structures have improved since the early 1960s, but it has been a gradual process.
Where I live, we have to truck in our supplies and our materials from the mainland and then freight it over on the water and it becomes really expensive. So it takes away from whatever funds are available to build a house. At one time, the Temagami First Nation subsidized people to have houses, which was all the capital funds that came from what is now called AANDC. About $45,000 was set aside for maybe one or two houses every other year. Out of that, we have to pay for our modern sanitation system, our septic system, and water which comes from an independent lake. The house was never completed. We were able to close the house in, but not complete the inside. But now, the Temagami First Nation deals with CMHC and you have a move-in-ready home. We charge rent based on the operating cost of the house. So that's one of the solutions we had for housing.
But we are also in a situation where because some of the houses are not finished, people move in anyway, they live in there and we are not able to assist them because of the limited funds to finish the homes.
I am kind of going by what was sent to me in an email here. I am trying to draw out the issues that were presented.
I am the only staff member dedicated presently to housing. We had a housing person before, but he had other responsibilities. I have been in this job for nine months and things are gradually coming together, but it is going to take some time.
In our community we have 16 CMHC units. The other 70 houses are pretty much complete and people have been living in them for years. We have run into situations of unfinished homes and it's not compliant with our present housing policy, but people need to move in because they don't have any alternative or anywhere to live. About 75 per cent of the community has their certificate of possession which is issued from the band office. They get their certificate and they own the house. The house is theirs, but the lot underneath remains with the First Nation. There is no transfer of land or anything, so if a First Nation member was to sell their home to another First Nation member, all they are purchasing is the house that is on the lot.
There was a question on life expectancy. The CMHC homes have a 25-year-plus life expectancy because we have an agreement of 25 years and people can rent and then they own the home after 25 years. Those homes, the CMHC homes, are designed to house families and the rent is really minimal just so they can keep up with rent. One of the solutions a former council had was to work with the First Nations Market Housing Fund. That is something that is still in the works. It needs to be presented to the community, but from my perspective as the Housing Coordinator, that is something that will not really meet the needs of the community with regard to housing because mortgages would be really high, like $1,000 or $1,200 monthly. Work is seasonal for many members in the community and with a mortgage that high, it will not serve the community's needs for housing.
Under our present housing policy, letters of application go to the Housing Committee and the Housing Committee will make a recommendation to the chief and council to put whoever is applying on a waiting list. Right now, we have six people waiting and they are single, so we have a priority 1 and a priority 2 lists. The priority 1 list is for families and priority 2 is for singles. Presently, we don't have any housing being developed to house any of the people on the lists. We are trying to accommodate as best we can with a one-bedroom apartment or a two-bedroom apartment.
Our reserve is small. We have a water treatment plant that services the central living area of the community. Any housing on the outlying area of the hub, we call it the loop because it is one big circle, that is all independent waterland and septic out there. The main part of the community is where our school is located, our daycare and our band office. We have limited lots, so those lots that are available in the loop area, they are all dedicated to CMHC because CMHC wants lots that are serviced. If someone wanted to come in and build on Bear Island, they would have to survey the lot, pay their own expenses of the water system and the septic system. They would not be able to build in the loop because the service lots are dedicated to the CMHC.
My reserve is only one square mile and there are about 200 people who live on reserve full time. We have people who want to come home and live there, but there is not a lot of housing available.
Our Housing Committee consists of five people, a band council member who is an ex-officio, and recommendations that are made there go back to council. All small matters, like rent or signing a rental agreement contract, get taken care of by the committee.
TFN has no housing off reserve and we have over 700 members. Those 200 live on reserve and the rest live all over the place. We have members in Ontario, B.C. and the United States.
There was a question on federal programs. There doesn't seem to be much of an increase of funds for any of the areas that are necessary on reserve. Like I said, back in the 1970s and 1980s, the councils would set aside $45,000 for housing which did not allow for the completion of the house. Now, the council deals specifically with the CMHC. Housing has been a crisis and it is still a crisis. One of the good things that came out of CMHC is that families are housed now. We don't have two families living together in houses like back in the 1960s. Families have homes.
One of the biggest challenges is lack of resources. We have hired an economic development officer, which will probably help to develop and access resources to help build housing. We have a lot of natural resources on the land where I am from. So we could start getting in that area, cutting our own lumber, getting our own lumber and accessing all our natural resources in the community.
Another challenge is income. Work is seasonal. Not everyone has full-time employment so income is limited. A lot of the senior citizens live on fixed income. When we do build, the season for building is very short, from about May to October, because then the raining season comes in and it's hard to build.
Programs for elders, there are community support services for them which helps with independent living, those living at home, but there is no elder complex or anything to house them if they need 24-hour care. They usually have to go off reserve.
Mould is a problem. Again, lack of funds to go in and do the work to remove the mould and replace the drywall or bathroom, whatever needs to be done. That is an issue I am working on right now. I'm trying to develop a policy for emergency housing so that we can address the mould. First, we have to generate funds so that we can address the mould issue, remove it and then ask for an agreement where they pay back the costs, whatever they can afford. Then we would have funds generated so that we can continue to help other homeowners who are in an emergency situation.
We have progressed from the 1960s when houses were cold. CMHC houses are pretty good, and then we have those from the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s that still need some work to bring them up to a standard where they are going to last a little longer than 15 or 20 years.
That's just briefly my community. Thank you.
The Chair: Thank you very much, Ms. Potts.
Before I open the floor to questions, would you describe a bit more the lifestyle of community residents. You said there was some seasonal work. I am wondering if you could give us a picture of the typical life of on-reserve members, please.
Ms. Potts: Our community is one of seasonal work. Band employees are full-time year round, but we have these fellows who will do dock work in the summer; they will take whatever work is available from contractors on the lake. Very few trap in the fall, but that's not a real living anymore. It's mostly construction and working with contractors who have businesses set up on Lake Temagami. The band hires casual staff. When we need something done, we will hire somebody for a few weeks; it will be casual work. A lot of times, the guys work long enough and the employment is long enough for them to get EI for the winter and then they go back to work again for the contractors. So there is not a lot of employment that is steady. In the summer, some women in the community get hired to clean cottages and they bring in whatever funds they can, but that doesn't last long enough for them to really get Employment Insurance the way their partners would.
Senator Dyck: Thank you for that information.
I wanted to follow up a little bit with regard to the housing shortages. I am not sure if I heard you correctly, but you were saying there are a little over 200 band members and it sounded like you only had six people waiting for a new house. Is that correct?
Ms. Potts: Yes.
Senator Dyck: So it is not a really bad situation then, but it would be, I guess, for the people who are waiting. The six people, would that include families?
Ms. Potts: Presently, it's six singles, but we have people who want to come back to Bear Island and because there is no housing, they are not able to. Presently, with our housing policy, you have to be a resident on Bear Island for 12 months before you can get on the housing list.
Senator Dyck: So in terms of the number of people who want to come back, do you have quite a large number who would like to do that?
Ms. Potts: Yes. During the summer, people come back and say, "Well, I would like to come and live here and I would like to come home, but there is no housing. There is nothing available."
Senator Dyck: For the people who come back, would those be young families who want to come back and stay or would it be more people who are retired? The reason I ask that is there may be different housing needs, depending on the type of family situations of the people who want to return.
Ms. Potts: We had two families. One was partnered up, but one was a single-parent family. They came home and they lived in an unfinished house. One family lived with the grandparents. In order to accommodate, we had to put them into a CMHC house and just charged them as a rental. Usually, the CMHC are rent-to-own. That was to be compliant with our housing policy. Then we have some seniors who want to come home and live there, but we cannot meet their needs if they can't live independently.
Senator Moore: Thank you, Ms. Potts, for being here. There was one statement you made and I didn't quite pick it up. You talked about a percentage of certificates of possession being issued. What percentage was that?
Ms. Potts: I figured about 75 per cent because a lot of the people who got housing, like back in the 1990s, there was an anti-recession fund made available to First Nations. So houses got finished, pretty much finished to live in. So once you meet 10 per cent of what the house costs, then you are eligible for your certificate of possession. So a lot of people got those.
Senator Moore: So they have to come up with 10 per cent, their own money.
Ms. Potts: Yes.
Senator Moore: Did I hear you say that is just for the house? It does not include the land on which the house sits. Is that correct?
Ms. Potts: Yes.
Senator Moore: I don't have any idea of the geography, so you have to bear with me. You mentioned that materials have to be trucked in and then boated, and the reserve is on Bear Island. You said it's approximately one square mile. Is that the whole of the island or is the island shared with other owners?
Ms. Potts: That's the whole of the island.
Senator Moore: And there are 100 houses there now.
Ms. Potts: Yes.
Senator Moore: How far is it from the mainland to the island? Is it too far to have a causeway constructed?
Ms. Potts: Yes, it's too far and the lake is a deep, deep one so we wouldn't be able to build anything there. We are six kilometres from the boat landing.
Senator Moore: Six kilometres.
Ms. Potts: Yes. At one time, there was a mine there so they put in a road that went out to the highway. So that's the road we use to transport our material and to go to North Bay or go to New Liskeard. So that's how the material comes in, is on this gravel road. It comes to where the boats land, the boating area.
Senator Moore: What is the name of that community where they land?
Ms. Potts: It's Lake Temagami.
Senator Moore: That's the name of the township as well.
Ms. Potts: The closest town to us is Temagami.
Senator Moore: It probably goes back years now, but how long has your First Nation occupied your island?
Ms. Potts: Thousands of years, but we didn't become a reserve until 1971.
Senator Moore: That's all I have for now, chair. I have some other thoughts, but I will let somebody else have a turn. Thank you.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: You mentioned CMHC housing. What happens if the loans aren't kept up from the band?
Ms. Potts: We have no problem with the band meeting mortgages. We have some problems sometimes with the tenants not paying, so the Temagami First Nation covers that and makes sure the payment is made.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: So if the resident can't pay it, then the band will pay the mortgage. My question is really what happens if it can't be paid at all from the band or the person renting the house? Can the CMHC come in and take over these homes?
Ms. Potts: I can't answer that because I don't know. I have read the agreement. Say we have a family that is in arrears of two months, the band will cover that, but we will call and have a meeting with the tenant and try to find out what is going on, ask them why they are not paying their rent. We try and do that, but the TFN stays on top, makes sure that the rent is paid or the financial obligation to CMHC is paid so that we stay in good standing and we don't run into any problems with them. This other stuff is dealt with internally.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: The non-payment could be due to the unemployment or something?
Ms. Potts: Yes, it could be that. Well, a lot of times, it's that, but a lot of the people who rent are on limited income, ODSP or Ontario Works pays the rent for them. How that is set up is ODSP or Ontario Works makes a direct deposit into the band's bank account for them, but we do have a few families who are working who have fallen in arrears. Like I said, that gets addressed internally, but the rent still gets paid to the CMHC through the band.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: Thank you.
Senator Tannas: Ms. Potts, thank you for coming and making a presentation today. It was interesting. I just have a few questions.
You mentioned seniors and I just wanted to get a sense from you about the demographics of the community. Is there a heavy senior population relative to what you would see anywhere else? Are young people in the right numbers staying on the reserve?
Ms. Potts: My community over there, 50-plus is considered an elder, but we have senior citizens who are still living independently at home. Two of the oldest citizens in the community are two women in their late seventies.
The youth are doing really well. They are all in school. Some of them moved on to studying health and becoming nurses.
Could you repeat, please?
Senator Tannas: I wanted to get a sense of if you are finding that the young people are staying, want to stay. On that, do you have a school on the reserve?
Ms. Potts: Yes. We have a school at Bear Island and it's JK to grade 8. Our youth have to travel from the reserve every morning up to New Liskeard for high school. Some of them go to live in North Bay for schooling purposes.
Senator Tannas: I noticed on the Internet that there is a lot of hunting and fishing lodges on the lake or at least there seems to be advertisements for them. Do your community members do any guiding for hunting and fishing? Is that also an occupation? I appreciate it's seasonal, but is that something that people on Bear Island go and do with tourists?
Ms. Potts: No. That was the livelihood for the people like my dad and his generation when they were raising families. Since then, the tourists have their lodges; they rent boats and everybody does their own thing. Now the lake is open to people who bring their own boats in, so the men in the community don't do that kind of work anymore.
Senator Tannas: I was reading about an agreement that has been signed, apparently recently, around a gold mining project and some kind of revenue that's going to be spun off of that. Can you give us any background on, from your perspective, what that agreement is about and how it might benefit the community?
Ms. Potts: I can't answer that. I was not working in the First Nation band office at that time, so I'm not able to offer any information on that at all.
Senator Tannas: Thank you.
Senator Sibbeston: Thank you, Ms. Potts, for being here.
We are doing this study and coming here to visit you to find out as much as we can about the housing situation on First Nation reserves. Then we will make recommendations as to how we can improve the situation. In acquiring housing, what are the problems that you are encountering, so that we can identify what the problems are and how perhaps things can be improved?
Ms. Potts: Transport is costly to have the materials and supplies brought up from the hardware stores to the access road; the cost of barging; the cost of labour, paying wages that are competitive so that we have buildings that are nice and sound that meet the building code. A lot of the problems are around finance, lack of finances.
The area is rocky and we have to rent heavy equipment like excavators to prepare the land for footings and foundations. Then, the building season being short, getting the building up before it starts to rain. You can't work in the rain, everything gets wet.
Also, like I said earlier, if someone wants to build on Bear Island, if there are no more lots available, the other costs are putting in independent water lines and an independent septic bed. Hydro is very costly if you are in the loop. The cost of hydro could be in the $20,000 because it's brought in through the water. If you have a lot that is not central, the builder has to pay for that hydro to come up out of the water to have hydro on their lot.
We have one couple who lives on the east end of Bear Island and they live without hydro, but they are able to set themselves up with water and septic systems that work. For them to bring in hydro would be quite costly.
We first got hydro at Bear Island around 1961 or 1962. Same with the phone cables; they come up through the water, too, from the mainland. The phone company has these little boxes set on different islands to bring the cables to Bear Island.
So there are a lot of expenses to set up and live on Bear Island. It's not easy to live there because of the fall time, break-up/freeze-up. It takes some adjustment to live there.
Senator Sibbeston: I noticed that you participate in the First Nations Market Housing Fund. Is that the way that you presently build houses on the reserve or are there social programs?
Ms. Potts: The First Nations Market Housing Fund is something the former council got involved in, and when I started there it's something that I just learned about. Presently, this new council that is in place will be meeting with them. It's something new and it still needs to be introduced to the community. People mainly deal with CMHC for housing. The First Nations Market Housing Fund is still to be presented to the community.
Senator Sibbeston: How many houses do you build a year approximately?
Ms. Potts: Last year, we built two through CMHC. This year, there will be no houses built. I don't know how soon we will get more housing.
The Chair: Let me follow up on that. So who built those houses two years ago? How were they built? I'm wondering, you mentioned a building code, being up to code. Has the band approved a building code for Bear Island?
Ms. Potts: Our present housing policy meets the national building code. The infrastructure specialist that we have come in, he goes by the Ontario building code, which is a little more strict. The two new units that went up were done by one contractor, who lives in the community, George Mathias Construction. We hired him to build these two units and that was financed through CMHC.
The other thing is CMHC grants forgivable loans for the RRAP programs. I can't remember the name of it. It's one of the programs to bring your house up to the homeowner's standards. Because we don't have a lot of contractors, we have situations in play today wherein we are trying to find somebody to do the renovations on an elder's house. She has a disabled RRAP and a homeowner RRAP. She is aging and she needs everything on the main floor now, she can't access her basement anymore. So that's another challenge we have, working in the community and with infrastructure, trying to find resources to do these programs to bring homes up to standard. The other RRAP that was approved, the lady's partner is able to do it. So those are different challenges when it comes to getting some work done in a home.
The Chair: Just one more follow-up, if I may. The houses that were built last year, would you know if they have been inspected? You mentioned a local contractor, George Mathias Construction, who built the two houses that were built the year before. There is the building code as part of the band's policy. Would those houses have been inspected before they were turned over?
Ms. Potts: Like I said, we have an infrastructure specialist from the Ontario First Nation Technical Services that is out of Toronto, I believe, his name is Chuck Petahtegoose. He goes by the Ontario building code. He has to come in or I call him in when the footings and the foundation are in. He will then come in and look at the envelope. He inspects right from the ground up, ensures that the HRV is balanced, that the range hood vents outside. So yes, the homes are being inspected and they have to meet the code. Otherwise, he will not sign off until the building is completed.
The Chair: Very good, thank you.
Senator Dyck: Talking about the inspection, you were saying you call in someone from the Ontario First Nation Technical Services. Do you find that that works well or do you have to wait? Are there delays with the inspection to the point that it delays the actual construction of the homes, or is it working well?
Ms. Potts: I find it really works well because if I give the infrastructure specialist like two or three days' notice, he will come up and do the inspection. He will do a report and he will leave that report or he will send me the report, and it goes to the contractor saying what needs to be done in order to move on.
Senator Raine: Thank you very much for this insight into your community.
We have some notes prepared by our research staff and they say that the community has 75 units of housing, 47 of which are privately owned, but you mentioned 100 units. So is our number wrong?
Ms. Potts: I have never seen that. I just counted the houses in my head. When we mail something, we just mail out 100, so everybody receives everything.
Senator Raine: So it's possible, then, that two letters could be going to one house because there are two families in it or two different people needing to get the information. But of the homes that are privately owned, they have a CP and they have been working over the years. Is it that they have finished paying off their 20 or 25 years or are they on their way?
Ms. Potts: Out of the 16 CMHC homes, some of them may be 10 years into payment, but the privately owned were houses that were subsidized by the Temagami First Nation. Once they put their 10 per cent in, then they got their certificate of possession.
Senator Raine: When somebody owns a private home in Temagami, are they expected to maintain that home themselves or are they still qualified for some assistance in maintenance?
Ms. Potts: The expectation is they maintain the home on their own, but some of the homes need these emergency dollars because there is a lot of training needed in the maintenance of the home. That's part of my job. I'm trying to implement part of the housing program which is how to maintain your home. That's a challenge in the community, learning to maintain your home.
Senator Raine: When somebody from Temagami needs to do something to maintain their home, they would go then to New Liskeard or North Bay to buy the materials?
Ms. Potts: They can go to New Liskeard or North Bay, or they can go to Temagami and pick up whatever they need there. If they can't transport it themselves, Temagami Home Hardware would send a truck from the town up to the lake with the lumber. They would meet it there and take it across by boat.
Senator Raine: That brings up a question I wanted to ask. The boat landing area on the mainland is a wharf, I presume. Does everybody on the island have their own boat or is there a public service to bring materials and people across?
Ms. Potts: Most everyone owns their own boat. The Temagami First Nation has what they call a ferry service for people to travel, but they are not able to go to the mainland, get a ride home. It transports our students, but you are not able to use that boat to carry lumber, or pets, or gas. It's just like a bus service to get you from Bear Island to the mainland and from the mainland back.
Senator Raine: Is there any lumber on Bear Island, any timber that you could use for milling wood or is it too small?
Ms. Potts: We have one band member who has a mill. I don't know if he is running it or not. Then, George Mathias Construction has a mill. But I don't know if these private owners are accessing the land and doing lumber. If they did, we could probably do business internally then and work on economic development in that way. But usually, everything is bought from hardware stores.
Senator Raine: What was the traditional housing for the Temagami people before contact, if you like, or in the early days? For instance, there are a lot of First Nations people around Canada who built houses out of logs and that was a skill that seems to have been lost and I'm wondering if that's possible or if that happened in Temagami.
Ms. Potts: From some of the history that I know, the traditional families all lived on their traditional lands from fall until spring and a lot of them had their own little cabins and their families lived there. In the summer, Bear Island was a gathering place where everybody met and spent the summer. My mom's generation, back in the 1940s, they all lived on their traditional lands and then they came back for school. So they went to school only in the summer time. People started staying more and more on Bear Island which, in the end, we ended up with a reserve in 1971 and have been living in that community since.
Senator Raine: For those First Nation members who don't live on Bear Island and would like to come back, are there economic opportunities? Are there jobs available if you live on Bear Island?
Ms. Potts: It's very, very limited. We have a full-time economic development officer working at Bear Island now. Hopefully, as time goes on, he will be able to have something in place and people will be able to get employment. I know of one couple who is interested in recycling. If that takes off, that will be a real benefit to the community and hopefully also for permanent residents who live on the lake who own islands, they could access that also.
Senator Raine: You said recycling. So on the whole lake of Temagami now, is there a recycling program or this would be an opportunity to serve a greater population than just Bear Island?
Ms. Potts: That's what they are hoping. On the mainland, at the boat landing, they do have bins set up for recycling. The tourists and permanent residents on the lake drop off their stuff at the boat landing. The Town of Temagami takes care of that. I don't know where they take it to.
Senator Raine: Thank you very much again for your good insights into the challenges that you face living on an island, especially with the transport of the materials.
The Chair: You have spoken of CMHC and quite highly of the usefulness of having CMHC houses built and how the band is making sure you stay in good standing with CMHC. I didn't hear much about AANDC. They have programs for housing and I believe that in some communities, they provide support for rent through shelter allowances. Could you just tell us, please, about the role of AANDC, if any, in housing in your community?
Ms. Potts: Like I said, the former councils used money that came in from AANDC as part of their capital dollars to finance subsidized houses, it was called at the time. The councils before the present one stopped providing those funds from AANDC to build houses. So where those funds are spent, in infrastructure or different areas, I can't really say because I don't work in finance. I just work in housing.
AANDC also plays a part in the MLG. They have a part in the approval for us to receive any funding from CMHC. So we have to access them before we can do business with CMHC.
The Chair: Is the shelter allowance a source of income for supporting housing in your community?
Ms. Potts: Not.
The Chair: In some communities, we have learned that First Nation band members who receive income support receive a shelter allowance which can be allocated toward rent. I think I'm right about that. Now, it seems to be spotty. Some places, it happens, some places, not. I gather from what you are saying that that's not in place in Bear Island.
Ms. Potts: No, I don't believe so because I am not aware of that.
The Chair: Thank you.
Senator Dyck: I am going to follow along on the same train of thought. You were saying that your First Nation got the reserve in 1971 and it sounded like, and I may not have heard this correctly, that as part of that you had received like a land claim settlement, I guess, and was some of that money then used to start up the housing for your members? That's the impression I got, but I could be wrong.
Ms. Potts: No. The Temagami First Nation at the time was called Temagami Indian Band, and we did have a caution on the land. That went to court and it was found in favour of the province so, no, we didn't get any settlement. But there was a mention of a MOU. Those funds, I don't know where they are being spent, but no, we didn't receive any kind of funds from a land claim.
Senator Dyck: To go back to the aspect of renovations, you said at one point that resources in the community were a challenge when it came to renovating. By that, did you mean it was difficult to get the building materials or were you referring to a budget?
Ms. Potts: The labour, to get the labour experienced enough to actually do the renovation and to do it to a standard where the house is going to have a longer life.
Senator Dyck: I am going to switch gears a little bit. You mentioned a little bit about water. I think you said you had your own water treatment plant. Have you had problems with that? Is that working well? It is a small community and some people claim that you need bigger communities in order to have efficient water treatment and distribution. What has been your experience?
Ms. Potts: The water treatment guys say it's working fine. They haven't had any real big major problems, but it is limited. If we were to develop more lots within the community, our water treatment system wouldn't be big enough to have maybe 20 or 25 more houses. We need to start looking at surveying Bear Island again for lot development and prepare for future housing. The water treatment is only big enough to service what it has now, but it's not going to be able to take a whole lot more houses.
Senator Dyck: Do you have someone locally who looks after the water treatment, who can do the assessment that it's working correctly? Does someone locally do that?
Ms. Potts: Yes, we have two water treatment guys who are trained and then the Ontario First Nation Technical Services send a water treatment specialist to work with them, train them. As they go along, their skills are enhanced. They receive training so that if there are changes or whatever needs to be done, they can keep up on all that.
Senator Dyck: You mentioned that with the CMHC houses, sometimes the families were moving in or people were moving in before the house was actually ready. Is that a frequent or common experience? It sounded like that was maybe delaying the completion of the house.
Ms. Potts: The CMHC homes are completed before they move in. It's the homes before Temagami First Nation started dealing with CMHC that were built with subsidized funds from the TFN. Some of those homes are the ones that were not complete.
Senator Moore: Ms. Potts, I want to follow up on Senator Tannas' question with regard to the school. You say there is a school on Bear Island. What grades does it cover?
Ms. Potts: The school covers junior kindergarten to grade 8. Our high school students travel daily to New Liskeard to go to high school. Some of the students choose to live in North Bay and board there and go to school. So a lot of students have to leave to go to school.
Senator Moore: Following up on Senator Dyck's question with regard to the septic system within the community, is it working okay and are there technicians on the reserve who maintain that?
Ms. Potts: The septic systems are maintained by the general contractor, George Mathias, for pump outs. The homeowner is responsible for the maintenance of the septic tanks, the maintenance of their water, the water system, independent waterlines. The water treatment plant employees are responsible for taking care of the people down in the loop.
Senator Moore: In the briefing note, I will just read this to you. I don't know if you have seen this or not, but it says:
The Band has recently concluded an impact benefit agreement to allow for gold mining in Lake Temagami which will contribute to the Band revenues.
Did you say you are not familiar with that?
Ms. Potts: I am familiar with the Temagami First Nation former council signing that. As for how they have decided to spend those funds, I'm not familiar with.
Senator Moore: Where is the mine? Is it on Bear Island? Is it on the mainland? How do you have jurisdiction over that? Is it within the traditional lands of your band?
Ms. Potts: I don't know where the mine is. It's probably within the traditional boundaries of the people, but specifically, I am not sure where it is. There is a lot of exploration and things going on over there.
Senator Moore: Okay, thank you.
Senator Raine: I had one more question I wanted to ask. In your stock of housing, I think you mentioned some apartments. Is there an apartment complex for single people or for elders?
Ms. Potts: We have two duplexes. There are two apartments in each building that have two bedrooms. Then we have three houses that were divided in half to make one bedroom apartments. So there are three one-bedroom apartments.
Senator Raine: If you are looking at your community and the demographics — obviously your elders and seniors would like to remain at home — are you finding that there are some cases where they are alone in a house and would be maybe better off in a common housing residential area where they could have some assistance? Are there any plans to look toward that kind of housing?
Ms. Potts: TFN has been looking at and discussing with the community developing an independent living complex. It would be two-bedroom independent living where everyone would have their own little apartment. That has been discussed. There have been diagrams and discussions and some of the old people don't like the design. It is designed and it is being worked on to try and make this happen, but the complex is probably going to take a little longer than what we planned.
But, yes, it's in the works to house senior citizens so that they can live independently. For example, these two older ladies in the community, they live in their own houses, they live alone. One lady is in her family home where she raised her children. She has a three-bedroom home, she lives alone. Another lady has a two-bedroom and she lives alone. If we were able to get a complex up and they wanted to live there, you know, they would have a common area and a kitchen area. We are looking at it. It has been discussed. We have had meetings. We have diagrams, and then the funding.
Senator Raine: These senior citizens then would have a CP for their own home. Would they be able to pass that on to someone in their family if they were to move into new housing?
Ms. Potts: Yes, they would be able to pass that on to their grandchildren or their daughter or son. If they wanted to, they could sell their house. They own it. It would be up to them, the direction they wanted to go in. If they wanted to live in the complex once we get one there at Bear Island, it would be much easier for them, financially also, and less stress. Up there, we pay hydro, which is pretty high and it's a big expense.
Senator Raine: In your community, the island itself is not that big, but the community is fairly compact. You talk about the serviced lots being in the loop and then other houses being outside it. There are roads to get to them, obviously, but do people have cars or do they walk everywhere? How do they get around?
Ms. Potts: We went from foot paths to ATVs, all-terrain vehicles, and now, we have trucks and cars, and vans. So yes, we have a lot of vehicles in the community because the roads are big enough now. We have lots of vehicles.
Senator Raine: Can you go across the mainland on the ice road in the winter time with your vehicle?
Ms. Potts: Yes, that's how we travel. If it's good travel and the roads on the ice are plowed, then that's how we travel.
Senator Raine: It occurs to me that your community is almost going full circle, where you used to live on the traditional land in the winter time and come to Bear Island in the summer to gather and get together, and now, you might be in a situation where people live away in the winter and work, and do things, but would like to come home to Bear Island for the summer season and enjoy the beautiful summers. Is there a plan in the community to allow cottage development by First Nation members?
Ms. Potts: The council in 2005 did allow two of our band members to survey and build themselves little vacation homes for them to come back in the summer. I guess if more people wanted to do it that way and they built independently, it's possible for them to have their vacation home.
Senator Raine: It sounds like a very strong community culturally and with great ties. I can see that if people are away working in other places, they would want to go home for the summer. Maybe that is sort of the future of staying connected that way, but it would be important that the First Nation have a plan for that.
Ms. Potts: Well, there is lots of stuff that still needs to be sorted out. Like I said, I am trying to pull things together, looking down the road and seeing what is needed and necessary and how we are going to go about making this happen.
Senator Raine: Thank you very much.
Senator Dyck: I am going to ask this question and it's going to reveal my ignorance. I admit I don't understand all this housing stuff. You say you have about 100 houses. Some are CMHC houses, some that were built I guess when the reserve first started, and then you are also part of the First Nations Market Housing Fund. So there are probably three different types of housing or at least two different types of housing on the reserve. Can you tell me what the major categories are and about how many approximately are in each category?
Ms. Potts: CMHC, there are 16.
Senator Dyck: Sorry, 16?
Ms. Potts: Yes. The rest were subsidized funds from former councils to build houses. The First Nations Market Housing Fund has yet to be introduced to the community and that is something that will come to a community meeting for a vote. That's not your social housing type of thing. It's for setting yourself up to build a house via a bank that is going to loan you money, and if TFN becomes involved in that, like I said, with seasonal employment, not everyone is going to be able to afford a $1,000 mortgage. So it's social housing and then housing that has been in place from subsidized dollars from the Temagami First Nation.
Senator Dyck: Is this the money that Senator Patterson was referring to earlier, the money through the social assistance subsidized program? That's money that originally comes from the department and then the band uses that money to build the homes.
Ms. Potts: Do you mean the income support that was mentioned? No, I don't believe we have that set up at all. I have never heard of it until today.
The Chair: In wrapping up, you mentioned the First Nations Market Housing Fund and that it was explored by the previous council and is now being considered by the band at present or by the community going ahead. This is a $300 million fund that was set up in 2007. Our committee has heard quite a bit about it, that it has the potential to be another source of money for much-needed housing.
It also includes capacity development assistance to provide support for developing housing policies, financial management policies, building codes and training for First Nation staff as housing managers. This is one of the first times we have heard of a band that is exploring the First Nations Market Housing Fund and I appreciate that it's just in the exploratory stage. I think the committee would be grateful, and maybe I will ask you, is the community vote or community discussions expected to happen in the near future?
Ms. Potts: We are hoping to bring it to the community before Christmas. Like I said, we have been working in this area, a capital projects worker, the infrastructure manager and the Housing Committee and I. This new council that just came in needs to become familiar, so hopefully we are going to bring something forward before Christmas with regard to the market housing fund.
The Chair: Could we ask you — you have been in touch with our Clerk to arrange transportation here today — to let us know if there are any developments in that connection as we go forward. This fund has been presented to us as a serious opportunity to deal with these kinds of challenges that you have described. Our committee would be quite interested in hearing if the community does make any decisions on that front.
Ms. Potts: Yes, I can get in touch with Ms. Zlotnick.
The Chair: That's very much appreciated. Thank you very much for describing the situation of Bear Island. I think we now have a much better idea of your challenges. I really appreciate your coming here and being so forthright with us.
Sorry, did you have something else to say?
Ms. Potts: I just have a question. This committee, with the feedback and the information you have, where does it go and then what is the end result of collecting that information? Is it going to be used?
The Chair: That's a very good question. The committee makes recommendations to the government. We have been studying this subject quite intensively with the blessing of the Ministry of Aboriginal Affairs and the government. However, our report will only be recommendations. It's going to be up to the government to respond to those recommendations. The government is required to respond to our recommendations.
I think our committee work and recommendations will be taken seriously, but we are not the government; we are simply an independent Senate committee that represents all parties, and so our recommendations are only as good as the quality of our report. This subject has not been studied recently or very seriously from what we know for some time, so obviously housing is a very burning issue in First Nation communities. You have described your challenges and your problems. So we are really hoping that we can sort through the complexities and make some strong recommendations that will be implemented. We are planning to do an interim report by December, so we will make sure that you get the report and our recommendations.
We are also going to continue with the subject in the new year as well, but we want to table an interim report that will particularly focus on the housing side.
I hope that helps to answer your question.
Ms. Potts: Yes, thank you very much.
The Chair: Thank you again for your very helpful testimony today.
I would like to welcome the witnesses from our next panel. From the Mishkeegogamang First Nation, we have Chief Connie Gray-McKay, assisted by Donna Roundhead, a mental health counsellor. Maybe we can start off with Chief Connie Gray-McKay.
We are also going to be hearing from Chief Arnold Gardner of the Eagle Lake First Nation; Basil Goodchild, Housing Manager, Lac Seul First Nation; and Charles Baxter who is the Housing Manager of Constance Lake First Nation.
I should explain, you have to hold the button down and the red light has to be on so that we can hear you. We are expecting a presentation of about five minutes from each of you and then there will be questions from committee members. We will go through all the presentations first, and then we will follow up with questions from committee members.
Please proceed.
Connie Gray-McKay, Chief, Mishkeegogamang First Nation: Good morning.
[Chief Gray-McKay spoke in her Native language.]
I didn't know what to expect coming here, but I'm hoping whatever comes from this process makes some serious changes in First Nation housing.
I have been a councillor for a band elected council for 10 years and a chief for 10 years. I always thought I could make some changes in my community, only to find out that change can only happen if your treaty partners are a participant to that change, providing the resources, the training, the capacity for a community to begin to address the housing and building on the young people. The trades that are needed, such as electricians, plumbers, those trades are not available to First Nations, so it makes it very impossible to do housing and renovations, proper renovations. I am hoping that whatever little I say can bring justice to an issue that affects the well-being, the health status of our people.
I'm a grandmother now and I have a lot to give. The children, our elders, all our people deserve proper housing. In my community, we have built an elders' home, but with no funding. We financed it ourselves because our elders live a lot of times with their grandchildren. We lived with my grandma and she would always tell us, "Turn that blue light off," meaning the TV. She had to share a room. I believe the room was only about 10 by 12 with my two little girls. I have four daughters and two sons and they were younger then. She would have to stay with them. That's how it is with a lot of our people. We have two or three families living in one house and that creates a host of problems.
I did bring a formal presentation for you to look at. I don't know if it was given to you, but it just gives you some facts about our housing. For example, in our community, we have 116 houses, 11 are log cabins with a single door, which is a fire hazard. The log cabins were temporary homes, but they have become permanent homes with no running water. We have 11 houses that were burnt-out units, meaning they burned to the ground.
We have a host of problems and I think sometimes, to look at a picture says a lot more. So I got the young girl who is working in housing to go around to take pictures. Even for me, looking at them, it was shocking. It is really shocking. It really hurts you to know that your people live in these houses and that little children and elders, vulnerable society, live in these houses.
I heard a question asked: What do you see? You are talking about studying the problem. I think if you really want to know how to deal with something you have to see it firsthand. It's so different in Northern Ontario. A lot of the communities are remote. They are only fly-in. The cost of building a house is so great. It's incredible. In the last few years, with the winter roads, there have been no winter roads, so it affects the capacity to bring in the lumber, the fuel. I think if we can become more active participants and sharing in the resources, as our treaty was always meant for us, the Ring of Fire could be a big thing for us too. A road goes through my community, and it is not even considered a Ring of Fire community. Yet, we are going to bear all the risks of these trucks hauling through the community. We have a transmission line that is going to be built around our territory. We are not even going to be able to participate. We are going to have to compete for that transmission line, which doesn't make sense to me because it's going to run through my community.
If you are studying something, it's better if you go see it first-hand, yourself.
A recommendation I make to this committee is that there has to be more training dollars to build capacity. The welfare system itself, a young person living on $400 and you have to take a cab to Pickle Lake, which is $120; there goes a third of your welfare. By the time you get back, the northern store where you're paying $3 or $4 for a loaf of bread, your welfare income is going to last maybe two weeks. Something has to be done about that.
The subsidies that are provided to people who are living in a house, they have a shelter allowance and they have basic. If their shelter allowance exceeds the amount that they are going to pay for rent, hydro — and most people prefer wood stoves because if you don't have enough money for oil, you are going to burn wood — it's going to cut into their basic; that means their food allowance. A lot of my people, 85 per cent, are on welfare because there is no economic base, there are no jobs.
I'm painting a story that is real. I live it every day. There is not a day that goes by that I don't get two or three phone calls about housing, housing disputes, housing needs, and it hurts your spirit as a person, to say simply, "I'm working on it." I have been working on it now for 20 years, trying to address housing. I have at least 300 people, individual families, waiting for a house and they all have a right to have a proper house. It's your basic need, shelter, food and being accepted. We have done what we can as a community to try to make change.
We have had two CMHC subsidies. The minimum required payment, if people don't make those payments, the band has to pay. My housing budget fund is over $700,000. We have to pay insurance for those houses. They have to be insured. So that has to change. We have to look at the CMHC system.
The last thing I would like to say is in the last 30 years, we have lost 26 people due to house fires — 26 people. Seven children died in a fire in 1978, in a house that had one door, no windows. It was a winter cabin. On November 23, 2013, I lost a young man in a house. In February 13, I lost four young people in a house. The house was old. It was like a paper box. The mother was 30 years old. Her daughters were four and six. Her nephew was 21. He ran back in to try to save them. They had two doors in that house. One door, you couldn't even open. It was boarded shut. They didn't have enough money to renovate. They couldn't even open the windows to help themselves.
Housing is a serious issue. I'm hoping that something changes. I hope my presentation has helped. If you look at some of the pictures, the pictures tell the story. My reserve is in two parts. There is the 63A and the 63B. In the middle is Crown land. To get through to and from, it's about 45 kilometres between the two reserves with Crown land in the middle. My community is proactive; I like to think we are proactive. We try to address our own issues but, you know, the bottom line is you need funds to address something so huge like housing.
I asked Donna to be here just as a spiritual guide for me. I speak on behalf of my grandkids and all the grandkids coming up. I speak on behalf of the elders and my ancestors. I know when our ancestors signed treaties, they didn't sign us to a life of poverty. They signed them for us to have a good future.
So with that, I want to say meegwetch.
I don't even know how I got to be at this table, to be honest. This one day I got this call asking, "Could you testify?" But I am glad for that opportunity to speak for not only my nation, but others. Meegwetch.
The Chair: Thank you very much, Chief McKay. I appreciate the material that you have put together and the pictures speak for themselves. We are going to make sure that committee members get a chance to see those and I'm going to pass the materials around right now. I want to make sure that everyone gets a chance to get a copy. Thank you very much for that presentation.
We will now turn to Mr. Goodchild..
Basil Goodchild, Housing Manager, Lac Seul First Nation: My name is Basil Goodchild and I work for Lac Seul First Nation.
Lac Seul is made up of three small communities, about 15 to 20 kilometres apart, being Frenchman's Head, Kejick Bay and Whitefish Bay. Frenchman's Head has approximately 180 homes; Kejick Bay approximately 116 homes; and Whitefish Bay has approximately 50 homes. Of those, 74 units in all the communities are CMHC-run, run by us through the Ke-nawind Housing Development Authority. Our waiting list right now is approximately 53 applicants from Frenchmen's Head, 16 from Kejick Bay and 16 from Whitefish Bay. Our off-reserve applicants consist of 38 applications right now.
The housing staff for Ke-nawind who basically take care the units through the CMHC system consists of me — I'm the Housing Manager — my housing clerk, an office assistant and then four maintenance workers to keep everything up to par. Operations and maintenance staff for our basic system in Frenchman's Head and the other two communities consists of four maintenance workers and two to take care of the band units.
We have approximately three or four homes under renovation right now which are the old band units that we happened to find dollars for to try to bring them up to livable, not code but livable, which is a standard process anywhere that you deal. We have seven units that are currently under construction under the CMHC process. We have just received the OK for six for this year's construction and I'm trying to get home to start those.
We have approximately 240 band units, homes that are band homes that do not pay rent and the rest consists of, like I said, the CMHC system.
Any band member who resides in the First Nation will qualify first and foremost, citing that there is a major housing crisis on the reserve. Chief and council have tried to provide adequate housing for their band members living on reserve.
There is no basic land infrastructure to construct more housing because we are running out of infrastructure dollars such as water lines which are hitting to the max; hydro lines are hitting to the max. We are up to a 1-phase now, and we now have no choice but to go with what is known as a three-phase, which means you need more power. So we have to switch that over.
Ke-nawind takes care of the housing, but it also does do the overflow on some of the band units. If we have any extra funding for that, I send my guys in to do the basic needs on that. I can't do a full renovation, but I can do cosmetic work I guess would be the proper term for that.
We have a board of directors of three and they oversee my day-to-day operations. We hold board meetings once a month for any items that come on the desk and if there is any crisis, then I call them and they attend the board meeting when they can.
Chief and council does not hand out any homes anymore, nor do I. It's the board of directors that do. That way, you don't run into any conflict or anything like that. So nobody can phone me and holler and scream or holler and scream at council. We try to avoid that because the phone calls are just astronomical on that issue, for housing needs and so forth.
What else do I have to say here?
The current housing waiting list for each community is quite high, but there is no availability for off-reserve to obtain housing in the community. So we are trying to look at that also, but some people are living in areas that we do have, such as Sioux Lookout, Hudson and any place close where they can find a place to stay.
We also entered the First Nations Market Housing Fund. When I first got hired there two years ago, I first applied for it when I saw the advertisements. We just got okayed — and that took a little over a year to get the final process through — for X amount of dollars, so we are starting the procedure on that. We then went to the banks looking for backing on the mortgages that the band is going to be the guarantors of. That just came through actually on Friday. In order to start that process, it took over two years for me to get this First Nations Market Housing Fund going through.
Currently, we have five families who have applied. Of those, two of them have been okayed now and the rest are still going through the process.
On a good note, if there is such a thing in housing, the Lac Seul First Nation chief and council have been trying to their darnedest help their people. In fact, they have invested in 24 units through their own mortgage system that they have gone through. They have applied and received that about 10 or 15 years ago. They have invested that and are paying their own mortgages on that. We are charging rent in the process, but we still have to cover part of that. Then we have 10 units through the timber claim that we have done and we are charging rent on that to help offset a lot of the housing.
Right now, Lac Seul and Ke-nawind are in the process of purchasing 12 units from KDSB which is the Ontario housing, geared to income housing. I got wind that they were selling off some of their older homes and 12 of them were located in Hudson. So I started negotiations on that and we are now in the process where we got the bank loan approved and we are just waiting for the final letter to exchange names on those houses so we can take the overflow on that. That's what the chief and council went through.
They have tried to do a lot of infrastructure through their process of the flood claims monies that they have received to better their community and in order for us to look at that. They have gone into a partnership with a mill. They have helped get the mill going again in Hudson, which is known as the McKenzie Mill. They are running one shift there and we are doing a lot of training to get the people back to work there.
They have made other investments, like they opened up a Tim Horton's in Sioux Lookout. We have opened up a training centre, the Training of Excellence Centre, where we work a lot with the Seven Generations, the mines for training, the mill to get them trained to be able to walk into the mill if there is ever any work needed. They are also opening up a culinary school in the very near future. We bought a building and have applied for funding to have a culinary school. We do own a couple of lodges, fishing lodges that are band-owned, but run through almost the same system as mine, with a board of directors and whatever funds that they have.
That's basically it. Thank you.
The Chair: Thank you very much for a tremendous amount of information. Much appreciated.
Before we go on to Chief Gardner, I did want to mention to Chief McKay that we are destined to visit two fly-in communities. We can't visit them all, but we have made arrangements to fly into Sandy Lake and KI First Nation. So we will be looking at some, as you recommended,.
Chief Arnold Gardner is from Eagle Lake First Nation. We would like to hear from you now, sir, please.
[Audio difficulties]
The Chair: It seems we are having technical difficulties. We will have a backup recording device where the witnesses are so we can get everything that is said for the record and I would ask that committee members speak up. So if you're all agreeable, I would like to get going with plan B while our technician is working on the system.
To the witnesses, we will have a conversation like we are sitting around the table and we will record what you are saying.
I know there were some interesting questions asked by Senator Greene Raine about the history of your community.
[Audio difficulties]
The Chair: Let's hear from Chief Gardner. The recording device is going to be there, just so you are aware. We will then hear from Mr. Baxter and we will have a chance for some dialogue with the senators.
Please go ahead with your presentation, Mr. Gardner.
Arnold Gardner, Chief, Eagle Lake First Nation: I don't know what's happening with technology. I'll start by saying that I'm a very traditional person. I have learned your system and I want to share that with you. I have an education. When I say "traditional," maybe it's something I want to share with you and when it came to me, it seemed like everything broke down.
I somewhat feel something and the message basically of what I want to say is to tell you to start listening, start listening to the people. I'm talking about the government; I'm talking about INAC, to get a better understanding of a lot of the traumas that our people go through.
[Chief Gardner spoke in his Native language.]
Sharing that, that's not even who I am. I'm from the Moose Clan and named after the Sun. It identifies who I am and how I am going to walk this Earth and how I am going to address housing. I have been the leader in our community now since 1990. I have been a grand chief for the Treaty 3 area. That's where I'm from, the Treaty 3 territory. I represent 550 people in my community. Two hundred and ninety-nine are off reserve and the rest live in the community.
We come from a community that has 8,000 acres as a land base. How do you develop an economy with 8,000 acres? To understand a lot of the issues that I hear about from my colleague Sherri Mitchell in terms of rent, we all know that the highest unemployment rate is amongst Aboriginal People and that includes my people. Then I have to charge them rent. We have to address realistically how we are going to deal with housing.
I want to talk a little bit about the other stuff too in terms of infrastructure, water treatment and certainly schools.
Eagle Lake has had an arena now for 45 years, an artificial ice arena because as a people, we see it as a basis for how you are going to go ahead. You have to have a foundation.
In terms of education, we have done a database of where our people are at in terms of their education and the skills that they have to offer. We do that on a daily basis. When somebody is looking for workers, at a push of a button now, we can give you a person in ten minutes. We have developed that kind of a database, and we are certainly doing that in education. We are also doing it in terms of housing. We are identifying the people. Just to give you an idea, our small community has 98 homes and 95 homes have piped water. Five homes are with wells. That's just to give you an idea.
Now, one of the problems we have identified is the water system. It's a filtration system. It cost us a lot of money. It cost the government a lot of money. You have to prioritize what you are going to look after on a yearly basis. We know that water is a big issue right across this country. If we don't upgrade the water system, we are going to be providing undrinkable water to our people.
It comes down to should we build a house, should we fix the school, should we fix the roads or should we fix the water? You get pressure from all over and certainly, as a leader, what I try to do is listen to the people. It's not like all the communities where you are from, as individual people, where you come from. I have to live with the people. Our area is probably half a mile. People come to my house. I live with the people. I don't live at the other end of town, per se; I live right in the middle. That is different than, say, Toronto, Ottawa, Vancouver, Winnipeg, even Thunder Bay. You run into people and they bring out these issues.
The other thing that I wanted to talk about is to try to give you an understanding of the trauma that our people are suffering. That is the kind of people, we as leaders, as housing managers, have to deal with. It's not us who determine the allocations for old homes getting renovated and so forth. The daily pressures on our staff who provide the service to those in need of homes are great. Our elders are also a big issue, a very big issue. A lot of times, we are accused of letting our elders down. I am of that age now and I understand.
It's because of the monies that are allowed for housing. I will leave with the clerk afterward, for your information, a little thing that I developed. I want to share with you one of the things that I did in my community. Like Connie, I don't know why I am here. I don't know why I was selected to come and do a presentation.
Eagle Lake is trying to address the mould problem. We are looking at a different type of housing system. We are looking at developing a factory on Eagle Lake. It's not stick housing anymore. It's some kind of a product like the insides of a 747, that type of material is what we are using in these buildings we are constructing. Again, when you are dealing with mould, we try to do the best with the technology that we learned from whomever, such as CMHC.
It's foundations that is the critical issue. I think I heard somebody mention earlier a vapor barrier and you have to put a Styrofoam foundation. That is where it begins. If you don't do it right there, moisture climbs. These are the things that we learned so we are promoting that in our community.
One other thing I also want to share is the cost of the homes. We all know here about the housing market, that the cost of supplies is unbelievably high. In terms of the funding we get, for my community, for example, we get $136,000 a year for minor capital which is allowed from INAC. To me, you can't build anything for $136,000. On average, we are looking at homes that cost between $180,000 and $200,000 to build. I told you at the beginning that I have been a leader for a long time. I could build a house for $50,000 or $60,000 25 years ago, but you can't do it anymore.
So we are looking at innovative ways to do financing, getting an advance on our minor capital to do things. There are a lot of innovative ways to do things.
What I also want to share with you is that — and I will be honest, that's what I'm all about — I feel that our people have answers. I feel that we, as leaders, have answers. Unfortunately, a lot of the staff don't understand what they're talking about. We have a department of Aboriginal Affairs here in Thunder Bay. As far as I'm concerned, in the 20 years I have been a leader, I haven't been to their office more than maybe six times. They can't tell me because they don't come to our community.
What we are talking about is here in the community, the type of conditions that people live in, the mould and that. We can all see it in the pictures and so forth. You have to see it to really understand. We as leaders, housing managers and so forth are trying to fix these problems as best we can. You can understand and see how passionate we are just from addressing this issue. I can talk to our members about economic development. Do you know how people answer me in my community? "You can't even put a roof over our heads so that our kids can be healthy." It is all holistic and housing has to be addressed.
Certainly, water is a big issue. I also talked about the school. The school needs renovation. Which one are you going to start with? That is the kind of pressure that is put on us by the outside, not really understanding. Kids have to go to school here and have good drinking water and they have to be warm.
There are a lot of issues. Then they deal with people in terms of treaty. Is housing a treaty right? Is education a treaty right? Is water a treaty right? There seems to be a big, big misunderstanding between what we think and what the government thinks. There has to be some kind of movement toward that.
Again, with the challenges that we have and how we are trying to address them, we have built homes a little differently. Some homes are nice and we use CMHC. Out of our 98 homes, we have 21 CMHC homes. Does the rental program work? Somewhat. Our available workforce that we have at Eagle Lake, the employment comes from the band office, the school, the health office and so forth. So what we do is if you work for the band, it's payroll deduction. It works that way. But you can't employ everybody. The social services program works somewhat, but you run into problems in terms of what should be paid first, rent or in the winter time oil so that people are warm. It's at the discretion of the social services department to determine that. That's what happens.
In my mind, the recommendation that I would make in terms of housing and the infrastructure is that the government provide more support to communities in terms of looking at innovative ways of financing these activities. We are certainly privy to borrowing money from banks; we are certainly looking at the First Nations Market Housing Fund. We have to deal with the CPs and the certification of land, that kind of stuff. We need to understand that stuff. We have a good relationship with the banks; they seem to like our money. I think they need to do something for us, too.
Again, where it's difficult is we are always in the position, certainly if we have credibility as a band, of relying on the government and the outside to say, aye or nay. As far as I'm concerned, banks should learn that they should deal with us as someone who invests our money in terms of their institution and go on that basis, go on the basis of business. If we borrow money, we pay it back. That's how they are in business. It works really well, but we have to be supported. Again, the problem there is on the outside. It really holds us back.
I look at the outside world and how business works. When someone goes for a loan for anything, no matter what it is, a business or an individual, they do not have a person or another body approving things on their behalf. One of the things I will tell you is this: Our community doesn't want to work in a box. That's why I can tell you as a leader, I do not spend too much of my time with INAC. I believe that they control us, I really believe that. They don't understand the traumas, the co-dependencies that people have in our communities, nor the pain that our people suffer. As far as I'm concerned, those have never been addressed, nor has how the residential schools affected our community. That's the very people we are dealing with as leaders and housing managers and how we try to do business. There is a big misunderstanding.
In closing, I will say meegwetch to you. First, I say meegwetch to the Creator for allowing me to present something to you on behalf of the membership of Eagle Lake, if not all Nishnawbe people.
There has to be change and I hope you are a vehicle, that you will be listened to. I know you are from different levels of government, in other words, different parties, but I hope you guys can all work together and address this serious concern, especially housing. My community has identified housing as the No. 1 priority and there is no question in my mind that it's a First Nations' issue right across Canada. I'm sure you have heard that already.
It's a really big issue, let alone the infrastructure issues that I talked about generally. Funding is a big issue. There has to be innovative ways of doing things. It's easy to build something, but now, maintain it. We have schools, we have roads, we have water towers and we have housing, and we have maintenance. Eagle Lake has a rental program. The other thing that I'm proud to say on behalf of our community is how we do it is all our homes on Eagle Lake, the ones from the 90s, all the infrastructure we have at Eagle Lake is insured; all of them.
When I say that, now, there is a cost and I have to pay the insurance company. It is not identified and none is allotted for our community. We do that ourselves and it's not easy. It's how you juggle things, but sometimes you run into things.
I just want to say thank you very much for listening. Meegwetch and I hope somebody gets this fixed. Thanks.
I will leave this document with the clerk.
The Chair: Thank you very much, chief. We are assisted by the staff who try to identify communities and people who can help us understand the issues in this part of Canada. They obviously found a good person in you. I thank you for your candor.
I do want to assure you, and I can say this with confidence, that although committee members come from the government side and the opposition in the Senate, we really try hard not to let politics get in the way of our work. I am confident in saying that our committee is convinced that infrastructure is an important subject to study given the tremendous needs, and we will certainly try to meet your expectations that we can be the vehicle for change. We are not the government, but we are going to be making some very well thought out recommendations and we hope that they will lead to change. What you have told us today has been very helpful, including your obvious identification of housing as a priority that affects everything else. I do thank you for that.
We are told that the technicians are going to keep working on the system. They will be wandering around checking the connections. But in the meantime we will keep on going the way we are now. We are taking notes; we are recording what you are saying.
Now, we would like to hear from Charles Baxter Sr., House Manager at Constance Lake First Nation.
Charles Baxter Sr., Housing Manager, Constance Lake First Nation: Hello to the panel.
[Mr. Baxter Sr. spoke in his Native language.]
My name is Charles Baxter, Sr. I'm a band member of Constance Lake First Nation. I have been in housing since 1989. I would like to touch on how Constance Lake came to be and how the problems of housing and infrastructure for the Constance Lake First Nation membership arose.
I think part of the blame has to go with Her Majesty, the Crown, and the federal government that initiated this reservation package they imposed on First Nations. I myself and many children were removed from our homes. That created a big problem. I was removed for 17 years of my life.
When I came back as an adult, there were three days where we all gathered, Eabametoong, Neskataga and Marten Falls. My parents migrated to the treaty areas. I still see that today, my vision. I saw tents all over the place. Non- Natives lived in homes, Hudson Bay had homes. They were accommodated. I was 17 years old. I asked my dad, "Why are we living in a tent?" There were 10 of us. "Why don't you build a log cabin, Dad?" He said, "I can't; Lands and Forests is going to put me in jail."
That was the education that our parents and grandparents taught us. You cannot build a log cabin without their authority, which I do not believe, because I'm educated now in the white man's world. I told my dad, that's wrong; we have a treaty. The treaty is signed. We have a signed treaty. The Lands and Forest lands there, we are going to take them and we are going to build a plane; they will never come back. They never came back and my dad loved that.
I was raised on our trap line. I had to adapt. When I was 18, at first, they did not take me home. I was stranded in Nakina. That was the legislation: You are 18; you are on your own, so look out for yourself. You have to adapt. Honestly, that's what it was.
I went to Constance Lake First Nation. I met a lady there and I married that lady and so I got transferred to Constance Lake First Nation.
Constance Lake First Nation was designated in 1943. It was land that was purchased by the Department of Indian Affairs by the Arrowhead Lumber Company. All the timber was already cut and what was not cut was given a dollar per tree. So it was wasted lands where we were. The First Nations came from Albany River, English River, Pagwa River, Fort Albany and they were living at English River at number 66 on the Kenogami River. They were told to move, to relocate to Pagwa because of jobs, lumber companies and the CNR.
What I saw in 1972 was the same thing. Tents, maybe five homes; 1960, maybe 50 homes. Now, the Department of Indian Affairs said, "Okay, First Nations, adapt, adapt; you live here." Where is the plan? Where is the infrastructure? No plan. Whose fault is it? It's not the First Nations'. It's the government that caused that headache.
The mosquitoes: Today, there is no drainage. Someone from Indian Affairs came there; he saw what we presented.
We, as First Nations, had approached the department, AANDC, and voiced our concerns. It's going to go to regional. Why do they have a department here? How come they can't make the decisions here? They had to know each First Nation. When I call the department, they know who I am. They punch me; they go, "Oh, you're from Constance Lake." That's all it is. We are a number.
The personnel who worked there, that I spoke to — I'm not one to be racist. They have foreigners working in the department that already know us. That's who they hired. I have spoken to him and I said, "When I speak with you, you have to know where I am from. I'm from Constance Lake." "Oh, where are you?" You have to know your area, who you are dealing with. That's the frustrating part.
They tell us to have a plan. They call that the FNIIP. That's what the department puts on us, First Nation Infrastructure Initiative Plan. If they don't like it, they want to change it. Our funds are held back because of that. There are new regulations they put on us. They talk about allocation for a RRAP, $19,000. What are you going to do with $19,000 for major renovations in band homes today, like Arnold stated here? That's insulting to the First Nations. It's not just a door and a window that we get. That's the CMHC allocation.
I'm from Mattawa. There are nine tribal communities to share the $165,000 allocation. There is a marriage system that calculates who qualifies. That's what is going on. They make the decisions. They ask the First Nation what they need. Okay, we get a budget together. "Constance Lake, here is $20,000." You have to wait. There may be some more and then they call us. December comes. That's the game they play.
With CMHC finance deals, they have a system too. Indian Affairs is part of that plan. We were denied for housing because they only gave us two points because of a stupid report that they didn't like. It was an outstanding report. That's how they do it. Then the other agency gives us 50 or 60. How the hell did we not pass? So we take our grievance to Sudbury Indian Affairs.
Oh, the problem with Indian Affairs, they gave you two points. Why did they give us two points? Oh, a report was missing. That's the frustration that we have at Constance Lake.
We have AANDC funding of $265,000 for this fiscal year. Our budget is only $72,000 for repairs and maintenance. Until we get the $265,000, take away the $72,000, you're left with $193,000. That's the budget we are allocated to work with for 12 months, and it doesn't fly. It doesn't work. We, as First Nations, have come forth, go to workshops, define our needs, but no.
There is another RRAP for $19,000, and we have quotes for $49,000. How do you work with $19,000 when the First Nation needs a budget of $78,000? You just do two homes. That's what we are saying: As First Nations, we are shortchanged in all areas, in all departments.
It is very frustrating visiting our First Nations people and dealing with the programs that we have. It's emotional and it's hard. There is conflict, a lot of friction. You make enemies. That is not the way to go. Why do we have the department? Why do we have AANDC? Why do they have a local office when they have to get direction from the regional office before they can make decisions? That's how we wait for a reply. By the time you get an answer, you have six months to do what you have to do. There's a timetable where we have to achieve the homes that we are given as First Nations. If not, we are penalized. We are penalized.
We have in our register 1,600-plus members in Constance Lake First Nation. There are roughly 957 in the community. How does the formula work? The formula only applies to the group that lives on the reservation. They don't count that we are registered. How come that is? When we talk about Constance Lake First Nation, there are 1,600 here. Oh, we should have good funding. Oh no, you only get the on-reserve people in the First Nations. That's how they work.
I would like to see the department meet the needs of each First Nation. The Indian Affairs person should know that particular First Nation and be able to talk on behalf of that First Nation to the regional office and say, "Look, they need this. What's the problem?" No funds. But they sure can throw a lot of money across the seas when it's needed.
There is a lot of infrastructure that the Constance Lake First Nation requires. Because of the growth of our people, there is a need for a sewer system. Our drainage is combined with the sewer system and it's overflowing. We need new infrastructure for drainage. They cannot go together because it flows at the pump stations and it causes a backup into our houses. That's an emergency state.
This happened three years ago. It's hard to get reimbursed. The department wants every detail. They want to know how high the water was, what did you get out, what did you put back. Holy gee, that's unreal. There is a quote, there is a figure, believe it. Come on, the way the department has been treating First Nations is ridiculous budget-wise.
I'm sorry, but it's hard. It's hard being a First Nation. I feel for the other communities because we are very, very similar. The growth is rapid in our First Nations. The policy of the Department of Indian Affairs says you are eligible for a house when you are 18.
Like I said, the problem that arose is when we were moved from our communities. I came back. I had no home. Twelve of us kids in the family, living with your mom and dad. Back then the structure or the design of the home was designed by the department, 8 by 8, and then family services says that you can't live here. Why? The room is supposed to be 10 by 12. Blame the department. Don't blame us; that's their design.
There are other issues. I'm glad you finally are going to learn about this stuff. It's there. We live with it. Then we voice it, but where does it go? Where does it go?
There are other things, but I will stop there. Thank you. Meegwetch.
The Chair: Thank you very much, sir. That was a tremendous amount of insight in the short time, including your personal story, it is much appreciated.
I would like to turn to committee members for questions or comments. Senator Dyck, I know you had a dialogue with Chief McKay and if we could get some of that perhaps back on the record.
Please go ahead, Senator Dyck.
Senator Dyck: Thank you all so very much for your presentations this morning. I think it has really hit home and our hearts. For many of us, it has put things into perspective.
One thing did come to me with respect to the housing issue, most probably through Chief Gardner. In my home province of Saskatchewan, and where I live in Saskatoon, and I know in other cities as well, there is a program called Housing First for homeless people living in the cities. It has been well recognized that in order to turn things around, the first thing you need to do is give people a house. What you are saying today — and, Chief Gardner, I think you put this in perspective for me — is that if you want kids to succeed, they have to live in a house, in a home. Everything revolves around your having a safe place to live for you to develop and contribute to your family and community.
I put that out there. I know all of you mentioned the need for change, and our chair said this committee can be a vehicle for change. I hope that we are able to help you out in that respect.
You talked about construction and about how construction costs are so high. Because houses can be built inappropriately — either the room sizes are too small to satisfy Child Welfare or whatever, or it is built so poorly that you end up with mould — what do we do? What body do we put in to ensure that the house is constructed to meet the needs of the various agencies and is safe? Is the problem because the department has not visited, is not really aware and is just sort of pushing paper without really thinking about the impact of their decisions? Do you have any suggestions as to how we can start to turn that problem around so that what is built actually lasts and meets the needs of the people who are actually living in that house?
Mr. Gardner: Let me respond to what you are asking the best way I know how.
The budgets that we work with are those that we had 20 years ago. I think they have to look at the current housing market, the current issues that are faced by First Nations. I will give you an example: mould. If we allow that mould to grow, then you have a health problem. Then, you have the health officials on your back. I think it's a coming together of the departments involved. That has to be looked at and how you address the renovations of the building that is contaminated. There has to be innovative approaches to how you are going to attack all the issues.
Again, it's the funding. What I will tell you is that at Eagle Lake, historically, we built homes over and above what was allotted by the government. But we are still running into some issues as a result of our own innovative efforts. I will give you an example: CMHC. That change to CMHC is almost seen as the government downloading their responsibilities. What we did at Eagle Lake 25, 30 years ago was we created our own CMHC. How do you charge rent when nobody is working? We have to deal with that reality. What can I charge the people? You have to ask the people what they are willing to pay, something that could work. Otherwise, you run into arrears and people not paying rent. That is a big issue. We are trying to address that.
With the money that we do make now, the maintenance money, in our community, we charge $140 a month for a house, $100 for maintenance, $25 for insurance and $15 for water. That $100 is the money you are talking about; we could use that toward that kind of stuff, collectively. But again, you have X number of houses in the community and most of them are dealing with issues. So you have to prioritize. You have to listen to the people.
Leaders and housing managers are the most loved people in our communities because we have to decide which house to work on.
I hope that answers a little bit.
Senator Dyck: I am going to ask a very short, focused question with respect to this mould issue. Those houses have been inspected, right? You are saying no, but if those houses have been inspected, and they said they were good to go, then something is wrong with the standards. If we have houses that are becoming contaminated with mould, then how does it get past the inspection? Do we need to change the way they are inspected or do we need to have different standards for different parts of the country, depending on what the environment is like?
Ms. Gray-McKay: I will take a stab at that, when it comes to inspectors.
My community is an independent community. It's not part of any tribal systems. Ontario First Nations Technical Services Corp. has to provide services to 22 First Nations, from any kind of engineering. So if you wanted to bring them in to do inspections as houses are being built, you would have to schedule it. You would have to know when you're doing it. It's really complicated.
The other thing is if somebody's house gets disconnected from hydro for more than six months, you have to go through an inspection. That means you have to pay $250. Well, guess what? In Northwestern Ontario, we have one inspector that services I don't know how many communities. He has to fly in to most of them, flying in one day, flying out the next day. During one week, he might see two communities. Those are the kinds of problems we have. And guess what? If you are not home when your house is ready for inspection, you are not going to get inspected so you have to wait again. There are so many complications.
Going back to your original question, I believe one of the ways that you can build quality houses is you have to have hands-on training, apprentice type training, where somebody comes in and they build a house, and you have to work with the youth. You have to make use of the young people because, as we all know — and I am probably at the tail end of the baby boomers — we are retiring. So you have to get people who know how to do the electrical work, the plumbing, the framing, the foundations properly, right from the bottom up. That's a big issue. Even the septic fields; I'm in a drive-in community and a septic field is $25,000. That's just a field, never mind the house. It's another $200,000 to build a proper house.
Hopefully, that helps.
Mr. Baxter: I would like to comment on mould.
Before members can move into the houses in Constance Lake, the inspection is made in eight phases. Members get houses that are 90 per cent efficient; they are air tight because of HRV. The members have to understand the purpose of the HRV, to circulate the air in the duct system in their homes. They have to adapt to that. There are some concerns, as housing managers, around the disconnection of heat, gas or power, when the members don't tell us. By the time we find out, and make a payment plan, say, to correct that some people have to leave their homes. If they don't pay their utilities, there is going to be moisture. You have to adapt your cooking because we boil most of our food and it causes a lot of condensation. But now, if your power or gas are shut off and the HRV is not working, then mould starts to occur. By the time you find out, it's costly. But then again, we have to have that relationship and that communication within our membership, that they do not need to be embarrassed if they have a house on account. As the housing department, we are not enemies; we are friends to our community.
Senator Tannas: I want to follow up on what Senator Dyck was asking.
Is it your view the mould that you see in your communities — I don't expect you to speak for others unless maybe you know — is not necessarily a construction issue? Rather, it's that the way people are living in them doesn't match how the houses are constructed. I mean, we don't want to start making big noise about how the houses are poorly constructed and, therefore, mould is growing if that isn't the issue, if the issue is how the houses are lived in and that it's an on-the-ground issue as opposed to a construction issue. Could you just maybe help us with that?
Mr. Baxter: Like I said earlier, the homes are inspected before our members move in. They're there, we go through the house with them, everything is checked out, everything is working. Then we ask them if they want the house, here is the key. There is no problem with this unit. You have accepted it, here it is. But like I say, it's how you live and then, again, as my colleagues have said, there is overcrowding in the house. That causes a problem because we are all different, our needs are different and body heat causes a lot of moisture. The people don't understand the unit. The family that first moved in there knows the unit, but if you have two other families moving in, it becomes an issue, it becomes a problem because they are not responsible for that unit.
Senator Raine: In the homes I have lived in, where you have a stove, you generally have a vent to the outside to deal with the steam from boiling. Am I understanding, that kitchen ventilation is not what it should be?
Mr. Baxter: There are two phases of housing in the First Nations. There is the band housing and the new construction homes. Band housing has no ventilation hoods; they are not air tight. They were constructed with quarter inch plywood and black Tentest. That was how those homes were constructed, the first homes, in our First Nations. But then again, with these new construction homes, they have the hoods, the HRV. They are so air tight with an efficiency at 90 per cent. If the member in that unit takes the HRV off, it is going to cause moisture.
Senator Raine: I have also lived in a log home and I found that was not quite as air tight, but it certainly was nice to live in. It seemed like the wood absorbed some of the moisture. It was a different situation.
I would like to find out from all of you what percentage of your homes are made out of logs.
Mr. Baxter: At Constance Lake, we don't have any.
Ms. Gray-McKay: I live in a log house and I have to live in a log house. I think one of the things we need to understand is our houses have to be culturally appropriate. When I walk into some of the newer houses, I'm in the living room right away, instantly. Where is the transition? Where am I going to put my rubber boots after walking around in the mud?
The other thing, too, is that a lot of our members still use a tikinagan for the babies; it's kind of a swing. A lot of our moms still use that. Who is going to drive a nail through drywall? I mean, I have a hard time with the studs. So a log cabin for me was good because when I was raising my little girls, I had a swing. I could put pictures up wherever I wanted. I could put a clothesline in my bedroom. I could do whatever I wanted.
So the houses have to reflect the needs of the people.
To answer your question about log cabins, we made upright log cabins and people like them because for the single people, those who want to stay like that, it's good for them. They didn't mind not having running water. But now, people get sick and old and they need water. Probably a third of our houses are log. There are trees all around us. So why not use them?
Senator Raine: Thank you very much.
Mr. Goodchild: We have three. Two of them we rent to Tikinagan Child and Family Services, safe houses for children in apprehension. We have an elder living in one in Frenchman's Head and it has been there for probably 30 or 40 years.
Senator Raine: Do you think it would be helpful to have a log home construction training program for remote First Nations that have a supply of wood nearby?
Mr. Goodchild: Lac Seul First Nation has purchased two systems to start their log homes. We are looking into going into the log home business and building. We have invested in two of them, one for Frenchman's Head and one for Kejick Bay. We are in the process of getting the funding and whatnot, and we will gradually build up to that. That's what we will be looking at.
Senator Raine: Could you share with the committee the details on that program because I think that would be very interesting for us as our study progresses.
Mr. Goodchild: That program is not mine. It is part of the economic development investment plan. We are still in the process of getting going on that aspect. We do have the system now, but we are looking for log allocation.
Senator Raine: Could you let us know where we could get that information?
Mr. Goodchild: Yes, I can.
Senator Raine: Mr. Baxter, do you think that constructing homes out of logs would work for your community?
Mr. Baxter: I have asked that question myself at times, but then again, we have a regional office of the department. Will they allow that? Will they fund that under their legislation? But I sure would like to see log houses in our community. I think it would be an asset. Like I said, the way we were before, we had log cabins. I lived in one and enjoyed it. But what does the legislation say on that? Will it be funded?
Senator Raine: Chief Gardner, would you have a comment on the log homes?
Mr. Gardner: I will answer you this way: My community won't allow trailers. That has been looked at by a lot of communities across the country, but in our community, no.
I think when it comes to the log homes, it may be something we are looking at. But we are looking at technology, getting away from stick because of the prices. That's why I mentioned earlier on that we are looking at different fibres. The 2x4s are a thing of the past when we are talking about the future. They have products now that are like a plastic, but you can't bend them and they are going to take over studs for housing. These are things that we are looking at when I talked about the factory that we are seriously considering. We want to partner with an Aboriginal company to develop a factory in our community.
When it comes to building log homes on a First Nation, you have certain rules to follow, environmental impact. You have to get approval to even build an outhouse on a First Nation. That's the way it works.
I don't really know where log homes would come in. The kind of log homes we are talking about would be like what we built a long time ago. Yes, our people lived in them probably 60 years ago. Our homes were all log prior to, in our case, 1956, when our INAC homes were built. The 1956 homes were torn down for newer type of homes, but they lasted almost 60 years.
So log homes are an option, but it's to get over the hurdles.
The Chair: Chief Gardner, I wonder if you would give our staff permission to follow up and get some more information about the new technology that you mentioned. It may have application elsewhere. We would be very interested in finding out about that.
Mr. Gardner: I am kind of promoting it. I believe in it. Again, we built our first home this year. A young couple lives there, a young family. I can only share with you because there is no model home that we can look at, but a lot of different types of homes are being promoted now so we ventured into this one. We are looking at a partnership and hopefully that will address the mould issue. Again, the costs of homes are a serious consideration and they are in the ballpark.
The Chair: Thank you very much. That will be appreciated.
Senator Raine: It's interesting because it's almost like we are looking back for solutions to the way it was formerly when there wasn't the HVAC systems, but we are also looking forward for new solutions. That's really what our study is looking to try to share, so thank you all for what you have contributed today.
Ms. Gray-McKay: When you are looking at a lot of people living in a home, and that is the reality, log homes are very durable. There is not too much you can do to destroy a log home. Plus, they are culturally appropriate. I think if we look at that, Mishkeegogamang purchased a Wood-Mizer in the hopes of being able to address some of its own housing issues. We are involved in a land use planning process and hopefully we will get a sustainable forest licence. That's something we are working toward.
Also, it will put a lot of people to work. People are familiar with log homes. It kind of fits in and the trees are right there. A majority of our population, 60 per cent, is young people. So putting that money into initiatives to train those young people would be good. I hope that answers your question a bit.
Senator Moore: I want to thank the witnesses for their candid and heartfelt interventions here today.
Mr. Goodchild, in the brief I have, it says that the band owns 189 housing units, but they manage 96 rentals. Are those 96 rentals within that total of 189 or are they in addition to? They are included in that?
Mr. Goodchild: Yes, they are.
Senator Moore: Having heard your representations, and particularly with regard to Chief Gray-McKay and Mr. Baxter, you talk about the local office of the department, the regional office and the national office. When you are putting together your budgets for assistance to upgrade housing, when you are identifying the needs, does anybody from those offices come to your land and walk through so you can point out the units and show the immediate needs and work that must be done? Does anybody come to do that?
Mr. Baxter: No, nobody, not even from here in Thunder Bay. Nobody takes time to come and look, not even from the regional side. But Mr. Zimmerman from Aboriginal Affairs two Fridays ago did come to our community and saw what the Constance Lake First Nation has been saying.
Senator Moore: Is he from the local office or from Ottawa?
Mr. Baxter: From Ottawa, I believe. I think his office is in Ottawa.
Senator Moore: So when he is there, I expect you would walk him through the community, point out the needs, discuss the little amount of money that you have been offered to cope with these repairs that must be done. What does he say?
Mr. Baxter: Our chief took him around to everything we wanted him to see on our First Nation, but then again, we don't know what he is saying in Ottawa. He saw, he was there, but we don't know what his comments are. He says he acknowledges them.
Senator Moore: Did he visit any of the other First Nations that are at the table today?
Mr. Goodchild?
Mr. Goodchild: I have worked for Lac Seul for a little over two years and I don't even know who the representative is for housing, if there is one. I know the infrastructure system and everything else that pertains to that matter, but as for basic housing, I have no idea.
Senator Moore: Chief McKay and Chief Gardner, what are your experiences with that?
Ms. Gray-McKay: I think we would probably have to come and get them and take them over there because they wouldn't find their way there. In my presentation I said that it's one thing to hear about it, but it's another thing to see it. Pictures say a lot.
Senator Moore: That's why I'm asking.
Ms. Gray-McKay: For these people, it's a paper process. It's a minor capital application. Oh, this is what they need. They read it and they go, "Okay, well, maybe we will see if we have any money."
Senator Moore: Chief Gardner?
Mr. Gardner: As I mentioned, I don't spend a lot of time getting people to come to our community. There is a lot of technology now that we can use today, social media and so on. However, what I want to share with you is this: I often wonder how someone, whoever, can determine five-year plans, ten-year plans and 20-year plans and put a cost figure on those plans. It's something that I struggle with.
Senator Moore: I imagine because they would have to sit down with the band leadership to discuss those issues.
Mr. Gardner: Yes.
Senator Moore: The immediate needs, the prior needs and work through those. I mean everything starts with one and once you accept that, you can attack any issue and start working on it. But that isn't happening?
Mr. Gardner: No. See, that's what I mentioned a little bit in my opening comments. There is $7 billion annually given to Aboriginal Affairs. My understanding is that out of every dollar, we get 33.3 per cent. I remember talk of devolution 15 or 20 years ago and that would double what we would get. Well, I will tell you if it was doubled, we would be able to do double the things that we do now.
I hear the leaders now, former leaders of all parties getting together to talk about the need for an influx somewhere to catch up. That sounds very interesting and certainly the Liberal government talked about the Kelowna Accord. How were they impacted, the communities, in terms of infrastructure? I talk as a leader now. Certainly, in our community that would have done things.
That's why I talk about 5, 10, 15 or 20 year planning, which is still based on an amount of money which is, as far as I'm concerned, way behind the times.
Mr. Baxter: Can I add something?
The Chair: Yes, please.
Mr. Baxter: What Arnold said about budgets, the Constance Lake First Nation is allocated $32,700 per unit. Figure that out.
Senator Moore: I just wonder what that means. When you say you are allocated $32,700 per unit, for what and over what period of time?
Mr. Baxter: For that fiscal year to build a house.
Senator Moore: One house.
Mr. Baxter: Yes, $32,700.
Senator Moore: One house.
Mr. Baxter: One unit, that's all. That's the budget that I showed you.
Ms. Gray-McKay: In answer to your question, Mishkeegogamang gets a little over $700,000. The allocation of that budget is a third goes to infrastructure and two-thirds to housing. If you have CMHC subsidies, you have to have insurance and a lot of your money goes toward that. If they don't pay their rent, you have to pay for that. If there is a CMHC deficit, you have to pay for that. We financed 26 units so we had to get a housing loan. Right off the top, $200,000 of my housing budget goes to buying these houses because we are trying to address the housing problem. It's ongoing. You have to fix the school; you have to fix the band office. Like Arnold was saying, what are your priorities? All of them are priorities. By the time you get done, you have estimated $4 million to $5 million in work for the one year, and you have $700,000.
It's heart-wrenching and it breaks and hurts your spirit. People get really angry at you when you try to explain this to them. You can go on for days talking about housing and trying to explain, and they say, "Well, you guys are no good; you don't do anything to help the people." You are in a sandwich, a sandwich sometimes you don't want to be in. The people have misplaced anger. They should be angry at the government, not beat up on your chief and your councillors. They are doing what they can. I try to redirect and sometimes it works and other times, it doesn't.
Senator Dyck: It sounds like many of you are in favour of the idea of log cabins. The government apparently is considering introducing legislation about standards for houses on reserves. You mentioned that there are probably no standards dealing with log homes. If legislation were forthcoming, and it considered things like log homes or the type of homes that Chief Gardner was talking about, would you like to see them in the building regulations?
Mr. Baxter: The problem is we don't have land management modules in our First Nations. The department has to initiate that and the AANDC now. So they have to recognize that. The problem is they will not fund it.
Mr. Gardner: I just want to share something with you. In my community, the way I understand the people, when talking about log homes, sometimes, because you have lost who you are, if I promoted that in my community, people would say, "You are moving backwards." You have to be clear in how you are going to promote it. In other words, the next thing you are going to promote is teepees and tents. So you have to be very careful in how you go ahead with that. Some of the homes now are beautiful log homes, but you have to promote it right.
Again, we have to follow standards and it has to be well funded. We know, and let's all agree on this, that to build a log home today, the kind of log home that we are thinking about, it will probably cost more than a conventional home. There is no question in my mind.
Ms. Gray-McKay: The way I look at log homes is you can build them anywhere. I think people have to determine where they want to live. The suburbs, that's why we Mish are all over the place. It's not only the fact that we have four societies, but we don't all need to live by lakes. Our people need to have that relationship with water. Water is very important and sacred. You carry water from the lake to use inside your home. A lot of people don't even use the well water because it has chemicals in it, chlorine. People still go and get the water from the lake because chlorinated water makes your teeth turn black, and nobody likes black teeth.
Like Arnold was saying, you have to promote it properly. With log homes you could live anywhere. A lot of people would say, "Well, why do I have to live here, why can't I live where I grew up?" So you could build a log home out there. You could put a well out there. People would be away from each other because we don't always get along. I live smack in the middle of the reserve, too, and sometimes I don't like my neighbours, and sometimes they don't like me, and that's okay.
Mr. Baxter: I would like to add something again. The reservation land of our First Nation, we don't own it. We just live on it. If I want a house, I have to get a CP, a certificate of possession. I have to be allocated. Then the lands registry has to come in and survey where I want to build that home. That's a challenge. I will have a house, but I don't own the land. That's a challenge First Nations members have.
The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Baxter. That issue certainly has come up before. I can assure you we are aware of it and we are going to be looking at some alternative models on land ownership, probably in B.C.
Senator Dyck: The topic came up about AANDC and the amount of money that the department gets. A sizeable chunk goes to just running the department. Does anybody know of any studies that have looked at that? Should we be looking at efficiencies within the department?
I know that there was a report this summer that wasn't every laudatory of the department. If a lot of money is used up by the department, surely we can look at streamlining there and having the money actually go to the communities. Does anybody know of any reports, and would they have any suggestions as to what could be done to improve things in terms of the financial aspects?
Mr. Gardner: You know of the Auditor General's reports. For years now my understanding is there has never been a good report on Aboriginal Affairs. Certainly, the picture there has to be looked at.
I started this morning by talking about listening. Certainly, if the government is to be looked at favourably by the general public, funds must be used in a good manner.
The other thing I will share with you is this: We sit here in Thunder Bay. Thunder Bay has a mayor. Does he worry about the housing of the people? Does he worry about fixing the schools? Well, he has people to do that, but he doesn't deal with it himself. Sometimes, it's not fair to us either. That box I was talking about this morning, here is an envelope and here is how you deal with it. To me, that's the report the Auditor General is talking about. There is not enough in that envelope to deal with these issues.
Senator Moore: Is this a firm number, that of the total amount within that department, only one third goes to the First Nations? Is that a firm number? Do we know that? I would like to know that from some reliable source because it is backward.
Perhaps we can find that out through our researchers, Chair. That is alarming. I didn't know that, if it's true.
The Chair: We will make a note to ourselves on that.
Mr. Baxter, you referred to an analysis you had done. I wonder if you would be willing to share that with our committee.
Mr. Baxter: The budget?
The Chair: Yes.
Mr. Baxter: Sure; no problem.
The Chair: That would be appreciated.
I am afraid we have run out of time. This has been very useful, and the last question goes to Senator Greene Raine.
Senator Raine: Mr. Goodchild, I wasn't quite sure what you meant when you said you were purchasing 12 units from Hudson. Are those units that can be moved to your reserve?
Mr. Goodchild: No.
Senator Raine: Those units would be in Hudson, but would be lived in by your community members?
Mr. Goodchild: Yes. That's what we are going to be doing with the overflow. We are going to be moving them over to Hudson so we won't have 10 or 12 people per home. We are going to try to lessen that number.
Senator Raine: How far is Hudson from Lac Seul?
Mr. Goodchild: About 15 minutes by road. We are purchasing them from the Ontario government because they surplus a lot of their buildings. That's basically what happened there. I found out about it and I started the process about a year and a half ago and we finally got the word.
The Chair: I am going to bring this meeting to a close.
Mr. Goodchild, you did mention the two-year effort to get qualified under the First Nations Market Housing Fund which has just been concluded with, I understood, bank financing approval. With your permission, I think our staff would like to follow up and maybe get a little bit more information on how that worked out after our hearings.
Mr. Goodchild: Okay. It will be for a fee though!
The Chair: I want to thank this panel very much. Your testimony and ideas have been most striking. I can assure you, we are very grateful for your time. We did take careful notes despite the technical hiccups. I think we all feel a responsibility to try and get some results to deal with the tremendous challenges and frustrations you have shared with us.
We are planning to provide an interim report before the end of this year. You can watch for that through our committee, on the Web and in Parliament. We hope to make progress on these pressing issues. Thank you very much again.
(The committee adjourned.)