Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
National Finance
Issue 24 - Evidence - December 15, 2014
OTTAWA, Monday, December 15, 2014
The Standing Senate Committee on National Finance, to which was referred Bill C-43, A second Act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on February 11, 2014, and other measures, met this day at 3:02 p.m. to give clause-by-clause consideration to the bill.
Senator Joseph A. Day (Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Chair: I call this meeting of the Standing Senate Committee on National Finance to order.
The intention today, colleagues, is to proceed with clause by clause if we're ready to do so.
You should be aware that there was one amendment that our clerk brought to my attention in the bill. Therefore, the bill is, in that one amendment, different from what we studied.
I will tell you what that amendment is so you will be able to know there is that slight change. It was the Banking Committee that studied this particular matter.
It's Division No. 27, and you have in front of you the bill as passed. That's the bill as passed, and if you go to Division 27, at page 429, you will see there's a definition of "systemic risk.'' If you flip the page over, you'll also see halfway down the page, at line 17 or so, there's "payments system risk.'' Two types of risk are dealt with here.
Senator Eaton: "Systemic risk''?
The Chair: "Systemic risk'' and "payments system risk.''
If you flip over to page 432, line 2, starting actually at the end of line 1, the amendment is to add, after "that systemic risk or payments system risk.'' They are two separate items both defined earlier on, and this particular clause is now covering both of those two items.
Are you with me, Senator Gerstein, on the amendment? This was an amendment that was done at the House of Commons, and that, as I understand it, is the only amendment that was made at the House of Commons.
With that one change, I wouldn't think that that would require us to reconvene the Banking Committee to study payments system risk?
Senator Gerstein: I'll speak on behalf of the committee.
The Chair: Thank you.
Honourable senators, I wanted to bring that to your attention.
The question is whether we should proceed with clause by clause at this time. Are we ready to do so?
Senator Chaput: Yes.
The Chair: Seeing indications in the affirmative everywhere, we'll do so.
There are a few introductory remarks, and our clerk will forgive me if I don't read all these out to you, but there is a very important aspect. If you don't know where we are in the process at any time, stop and we'll explain that to you. It's very important that you understand the process.
Second, if there are any amendments, then we'll have to deal with those amendments in terms of whether or not they're a proper amendment and where they should be in order.
I've received no indications that anyone wants to propose an amendment. That doesn't mean you shouldn't, but it means that I won't read this until such time as we have an amendment to consider.
I think those are basically the points that I wanted to make sure you were aware of. If any senator wishes to speak on any item, if you have one aspect of this bill that you want to support but there's another aspect you don't want to support and you want to go on the record as to why you're not supporting one aspect, then get it on the record.
This is a public record, and it will be there forever, so if there is, for whatever reason, a feeling you wish to be recorded, then please indicate, and the clerk and I will make sure that you have an opportunity to speak.
Honourable senators, any questions on those points? Seeing none, I will proceed with the series of questions that I have to ask.
Is it agreed that the committee proceed to clause-by-clause consideration of Bill C-43, A second Act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on February 11, 2014 and other measures?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Agreed. Thank you.
Shall the title stand postponed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Agreed. Thank you.
We don't have to have a particular person? This is not like a motion?
Jodi Turner, Clerk of the Committee: No, that's fine.
The Chair: Shall clause 1, which contains the short title, stand postponed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Agreed.
Is it agreed, with leave, that the clauses be grouped according to the parts of the bill as described in the Table of Provisions of Bill C-43? That means there are four parts.
What I would propose is that we proceed with Parts 1, 2 and 3 just on one vote, and then Part 4, because it deals with a lot of diverse matters, we will deal with on a division-by-division basis, and there are 31 of those; is that agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Let's start with Part 1. This is Amendments to the Income Tax Act and a Related Text. That goes from clause 2 to clause 91.
Shall Part 1, which contains clauses 2 to 91, carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Carried. Thank you.
Part 2, Amendments to the Excise Tax Act (GST/HST Measures) and a Related Text. This is clause 92 to 99.
Shall Part 2, which contains clauses 92 to 99 carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Carried. Thank you.
Part 3, Excise Act, 2001. These are clauses 100 and 101.
Shall Part 3, which contains clauses 100 to 101, carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Carried. Thank you.
Part 4, Various Measures. Shall Part 4, Division 1, which contains clauses 102 to 142, carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Carried. Thank you.
The next one is under the Aeronautics Act. That last one was Intellectual Property, the first one. I didn't mention that name.
The next one, Division 2, is the Aeronautics Act. I think this is the aerodrome one that Transport studied.
Shall Part 4, Division 2, which contains clauses 143 and 144, carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Agreed, thank you. Carried.
Part 4, Division 3, Canada High Arctic Research Station Act. This is an entire piece of legislation within this bill. It's clause 145 and clause 146 to 170. Shall Part 4, Division 3, which contains clauses 145, 146 to 170, carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Agreed. Thank you.
Division 5 of Part 4, this is called Federal-Provincial Fiscal Arrangements Act.
Did I miss one? I'm sorry. We will go back here.
Shall Part 4, Division 4, which contains clause 171, carry? It's entitled "Criminal Code clause.''
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Agreed, thank you. Now I'm up to Division 5. Thanks, Ms. Turner, for catching me there. I was rushing ahead.
Federal-Provincial Fiscal Arrangements Act, clause 172 and 173. Shall Part 4, Division 5, which contains clauses 172 and 173, carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Agreed, thank you.
Radiocommunication Act. Shall Part 4, Division 6, which contains clauses 174 to 182, carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Agreed, thank you.
Revolving Funds Act. Shall Part 4, Division 7, which contains clauses 183 and 184, carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Agreed, thank you.
Royal Canadian Mint Act, clause 185. Shall Part 4, Division 8, which contains clause 185, carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Agreed, thank you.
Investment Canada Act. Shall Part 4, Division 9, which contains clauses 186 to 190, carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Carried. Thank you.
Senator L. Smith: Sorry, I went to the wrong meeting.
The Chair: That's all right. We were trying to get ahead of you and get finished before you came, to show you our efficiency here, Senator Smith. Welcome.
I'm now at the Broadcasting Act, Division 10 of Part 4. Shall Division 10, Part 4, which contains clauses 191 and 192, carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Agreed. Thank you.
Telecommunications Act. Shall Division 11 of Part 4, which contains clauses 193 to 210, carry? Is that agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Okay. Senator Smith, I indicated to others that, when we're passing any one of these divisions, if you have an interjection or you want something on the record, please feel free to do so.
Senator L. Smith: Thank you, sir.
The Chair: Business Development Bank of Canada Act. Shall Part 4, Division 12, which contains clauses 211 to 223, carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Agreed, thank you. Carried.
The next one is the Northwest Territories Act, and this was changing the mandatory election dates, I believe, to avoid confusion with other possible elections.
Shall Part 4, Division 13, which contains clause 224, carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Carried. Thank you.
Employment Insurance Act. This is Division 14 of Part 4, which contains clauses 225 and 226. Shall that carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Carried. Thank you.
Shall Division 15 of Part 4, which contains clause 227, carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Agreed, thank you. Carried.
Canada Marine Act. This is Division 16, clauses 228 to 231. Shall that division of Part 4 carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Agreed, thank you. Carried.
DNA Identification Act. This is Division 17, which contains clauses 232 to 249. Shall that division carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Agreed. Carried.
Next we have the Proceeds of Crime (Money Laundering) and Terrorist Financing Act, and it's clauses 250 and 251. It's Division 18. Shall that division carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Agreed, thank you. Carried.
Department of Employment and Social Development Act is Division 19 of Part 4, which contains clause 252. Shall that carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Carried. Agreed, thank you.
Public Health Agency of Canada Act is Division 20. It includes clause 253 to 260. Shall that division carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Carried. Thank you.
Economic Action Plan 2013 Act, No. 2. That would probably be the Budget Implementation Act, last year, No. 2, 2013.
Clause 261 and 265. Shall that Division 21 carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Agreed. Carried.
Now I'm on to Division 22, Part 4, Central Cooperative Credit Societies and Federal Credit Unions, clauses 266 to 303. Shall that division carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Agreed, thank you.
Next I'm on to Division 23, Financial Administration Act, clauses 304 to 305. Two clauses, Division 23. Shall that division carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Agreed, thank you.
Next we have Division 24 of 31 divisions, Immigration and Refugee Protection Act, clause 306 to 314. Shall Division 24 carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Agreed, thank you.
Prothonotaries of the Federal Court. That would be clauses 315 to 333 of Part 4, Division 25. Shall that division carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Agreed, thank you.
Next is Canadian Payments Act. It is Division 26 and it includes clauses 334 to 359. Shall those clauses carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Carried. Thank you.
Next is Division 27, Payment Clearing and Settlement Act. This is the one where there was that one amendment in the House of Commons, which I explained to you earlier, which doesn't look to be that — I don't want to say "significant,'' but it doesn't look like we would need to go back and do another study to cover that particular amendment.
Shall Part 4, Division 27, which contains clauses 360 to 375, carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Agreed. Carried.
Extractive Sector Transparency Measures Act. This is another full act within the bill. It's Division 28, clauses 376 and 377. Shall that division carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Agreed, thank you.
Next we have Jobs and Economic Growth Act, clauses 378 to 381. Shall Division 29, which contains those clauses, carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Agreed, thank you.
Part 4, Division 30, Public Service Labour Relations, clauses 382 to 386. Shall Division 30, which contains those clauses, carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Agreed.
Royal Canadian Mounted Police pensions. This is primarily for the non-uniform members of the force. Shall Part 4, Division 31, which includes clauses 387 to 401, carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Agreed. Carried.
Now we have to go back to the first end here. Shall clause 1, which contains the short title, carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Agreed, thank you.
Shall the title carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: This is the long title, I guess. We just agreed on the short one. Shall the bill carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Agreed, thank you. Now the question is: Do we wish to attach any observations?
I've asked everybody if there are any observations you feel we should add on a substantive basis, and I've heard none, but I think it would be helpful if we just recapped how this bill was dealt with. I've sent you along a proposed observation that basically says seven committees studied this bill, because we're asked to do clause by clause and we relied on those other reports.
Senator Chaput: Yes.
The Chair: If somebody looked at this two years from now, this would be helpful to them.
Can we agree with that observation that would be attached?
Senator Eaton: Where is the observation?
The Chair: Do you not have a copy of it? It lists the committees that did the studies.
Senator Eaton: Yes.
The Chair: It's nothing substantive.
Senator Mockler: Should we deal with it like the nomenclature observation on Bill C-43? Could we not just comment rather than use the word "observation''?
The Chair: We could take the word "observation'' out and put the word "comment'' in there. Typically in these, what is attached is an observation or a recommendation. We're not recommending anything. What we're trying to do is inform somebody who might look at this in the future just how we handled this.
Senator Eaton: Or if somebody is wondering how we broke it down and studied it.
The Chair: Yes, exactly.
I am told we have to use the term "observation'' in order to have it appended.
Senator Mockler: Okay.
The Chair: Are there any other comments?
Senator Gerstein: Comments are not acceptable.
The Chair: Comments are not acceptable.
Are there any other observations? If you give me an observation, it's going to be attached to the bill.
Senator L. Smith: I think we are okay, too.
Senator Eaton: I think it shows that we paid attention to it.
The Chair: Yes, absolutely. What concerned me is, a number of those reports weren't discussed in the main chamber and probably will never get adopted as part of the Senate record. Some are, ours is, but a lot of them won't be, and that I think is disappointing, but at least we can make reference to them here, and that immortalizes them.
[Translation]
Senator Chaput: I think it's important, because, down the road, researchers and people interested in seeing what the Senate did will be able to see that the various committees examined the matter and that the goal was to meet the deadline.
[English]
The Chair: There are no changes. It's agreed they be attached to the report.
Is it agreed that I report this bill to the Senate with the observations attached at the earliest opportunity?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Agreed, thank you.
Ladies and gentlemen, that concludes our business. I want to thank all of the staff and you behind the screen, the interpreters. We really appreciate you all.
Our two stars here, Raphaëlle and Sylvain, have done a great job for us on short notice. Let me conclude by thanking all of you, honourable senators. We go through some intense times with supply and budget implementation, but this will move this along to the final stage. I'll file it tonight, and tomorrow we're ready for third reading. Anybody who would like to talk about any part of this, use our report as a basis for anything, or your report, if you would like to say a few words, that would be very good.
Subsequent to that, I wish you all a very happy holiday and very Merry Christmas.
[Translation]
Senator Bellemare: I apologize for being a bit late. I see here that it says, "reported with observations.'' Are the observations being appended?
[English]
The Chair: No, they are in the report, and they only relate to a portion of the report.
[Translation]
Senator Bellemare: Yes, that was what I thought. I just wasn't clear on whether they were being appended to the committees' report. It says, "reported with observations,'' but if someone wanted to do some research, they would have to refer to a specific report.
[English]
The Chair: It has been suggested that we might use a hyperlink to link the committee report.
[Translation]
Senator Bellemare: Yes, that would be great.
[English]
The Chair: We can just put that on there, and that way somebody reading this can then go to the committee and find the observations and the discussion.
[Translation]
Senator Bellemare: I remember that the report contained a number of observations, which are helpful for anyone who might want to understand the report given the complex nature of some of the subject matter.
The Chair: Is it agreed that a hyperlink be added?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
[English]
The Chair: That is it. Thank you.
(The committee adjourned.)