Proceedings of the Subcommittee on
Veterans Affairs
Issue 4 - Evidence - April 2, 2014
OTTAWA, Wednesday, April 2, 2014
The Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs of the Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence met this day at 12:12 p.m., to continue its study on the services and benefits provided to members of the Canadian Forces; to veterans; to members and former members of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and their families.
Senator Roméo Antonius Dallaire (Chair) in the chair.
[Translation]
The Chair: Welcome to the Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs. Today, we will consider the whole commemoration aspect, since we are heading into a period of important anniversaries, such as the centennial of the First World War and the one hundred and fiftieth anniversary of Canadian Confederation.
In a study on topics regarding veterans, commemoration is an integral part of the history of our veterans, who are its first representatives.
Before I introduce our witness, I would like to introduce my colleagues. I am Senator Roméo Dallaire, and I represent the Gulf of St. Lawrence, in Quebec. My colleagues are the following: Senator Wells from Newfoundland and Labrador; Senator Day from New Brunswick; Senator Stewart Olsen from New Brunswick; and Senator Mockler, who will join us a bit later, also from New Brunswick.
I would like to introduce André Lévesque, Director General, Commemoration, Veterans Affairs Canada, who spent decades at the Department of National Defence within the commemoration division and the history division, as well. For close to a year now, he has been the Director General of Commemoration at Veterans Affairs Canada.
[English]
Welcome, colonel, and congratulations on that post. I remember you very well in your previous duties. If anything, I am sure you have a lot of background to handle that, on top of the PhD you acquired in commemoration systems or programs. I applaud you for putting academic rigour to your functions.
It's an open scenario today. We have until one o'clock. I believe you have an opening statement to give us a feel for the exercise from which we can then build our questions.
André Lévesque, Director General, Commemoration, Veterans Affairs Canada: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair and ladies and gentlemen, for allowing me to provide you with this update on Veterans Affairs Canada's commemoration activities. Indeed, these are very exciting times between 2014 and 2020. I hope my update will be of use to your committee as you study the services and benefits provided to veterans and their families.
The focus of my presentation will be on Veterans Affairs Canada's plan to mark the one hundredth anniversary of the First World War and the seventieth and seventy-fifth anniversaries of the Second World War. As Director General of Commemoration at Veterans Affairs Canada, I am also responsible for the funeral and burial program; and I will provide an update on that at the end.
[Translation]
From 2014 to 2020, Veterans Affairs Canada will commemorate the 100th anniversary of the First World War, as well as the seventieth and the seventy-fifth anniversaries of the Second World War. Since 2017 will mark the one hundred and fiftieth anniversary of Canadian Confederation, it would be timely to recognize Canada's rich military history and its role in building our country.
Key moments such as the centennial, in 2017, and the Battle of Vimy Ridge, which is considered by many as the moment Canada became a nation, will give Canadians an opportunity to celebrate our collective achievements and feel a sense of shared pride in our accomplishments.
The importance of commemorating that history of service and sacrifice cannot be overstated. That is why the commemoration activities will involve various federal departments and agencies, including Canadian Heritage, National Defence, the Canadian War Museum, Library and Archives Canada, Parks Canada, the Royal Canadian Mint, Canada Post, and many others.
Today, I will talk about activities that will be undertaken by the Department of Veterans Affairs here, in Canada, and abroad.
[English]
National ceremonies will be important during this commemorative period. The launch of the commemoration of the two world wars will take place in Ottawa on August 4, 2014, as part of the rededication of the National War Memorial to all who served our country. On Parliament Hill, we will install later this year permanent altars for all the Books of Remembrance in the Peace Tower's Memorial Chamber. Of the seven Books of Remembrance, the First World War Book of Remembrance is the only one displayed on a permanent altar; and that's the massive one you see.
It will be important for commemorations to take place across the country as well. Through the commemorative partnership program, Veterans Affairs Canada will provide funding for a wide range of remembrance projects. My division will continue to develop learning resources and encourage educators across the country to bring remembrance to the classroom and engage youth in commemorative activities.
[Translation]
Many activities will take place in the country, but also in Europe. As announced in Budget 2013, the government has invested $5 million to create a permanent visitor and education centre at the Canadian National Vimy Memorial, in France.
Veterans Affairs Canada is working with the Vimy Foundation, which will raise another $5 million for the project, bringing the total to $10 million.
The most important ceremony will take place in 2017 to mark the centennial of the Battle of Vimy Ridge. That will be a spectacular ceremony.
In addition to celebrating the seventy-fifth anniversary of the Second World War, we will mark, in 2014, the seventieth anniversary of D-Day, the Battle of Normandy, and the Italian Campaign, and, in 2015, the Victory in Europe Day and the Liberation of the Netherlands.
On March 2, Minister Fantino announced that financial assistance would be provided to help D-Day and Battle of Normandy veterans attend the commemoration events for the seventieth anniversary that will take place in France, in June. Up to $2,000 will be allocated to eligible veterans.
[English]
This year, 2014, will also mark the beginning of the First and Second World War anniversaries, that's true, but it will also be an important year to pay tribute to modern-day veterans as well. A couple of weeks ago, Minister Fantino led a delegation of Canadian veterans in Cyprus to mark the fiftieth anniversary of the beginning of the Canadian effort in the Mediterranean nation. As you know, May 9 will be a national day of honour in recognition and commemoration of Canada's military mission in Afghanistan.
Veterans Affairs Canada will be part of this commemoration, especially the engagement of youth through the learning resources available to educators online to educate and engage their students in paying tribute to this important mission. The National War Memorial is currently dedicated to those who served during the two World Wars and the Korean War. However, the rededication of the National War Memorial to all of those who served will be a great opportunity to pay homage to Canada's long and proud tradition of military service.
As you may recall, Budget 2014 committed to expanding funeral and burial eligibility to ensure that all modern-day veterans of modest means have access to a dignified funeral and burial.
Modern-day veterans will no longer need to be in receipt of a Veterans Affairs benefit to be eligible for means-tested benefits. By removing the requirement of a Veterans Affairs benefit, all modern-day veterans, like traditional war veterans, will be eligible for assistance if they meet the means test.
[Translation]
Dear committee members, we have a bounden duty to commemorate those who have served.
In closing, I would like to say that Veterans Affairs Canada looks forward to commemorating both world wars between 2014 and 2020, during a very important commemorative period here in Canada, but also in countries around the world.
Many initiatives are being planned and will be launched in August, with the rededication of the National War Memorial. However, certain commemorative activities are already underway. Some of you must have seen the ice sculpture representing a train of Canadian troops from the Great War. That sculpture was exhibited at the Ottawa Winterlude. It was beautiful.
Work is also underway to mark the seventieth anniversary of D-Day and the Battle of Normandy in June. A number of veterans would like to attend that commemoration. The average age of D-Day veterans is over 90. That is an important reason to ensure that this event is commemorated properly.
I would now be pleased to answer your questions.
The Chair: Thank you, Colonel Lévesque.
[English]
We were very much involved with the repatriation of the Unknown Soldier as the millennium project out of National Defence, which worked with the Legion at the time. Colonel Lévesque was at the heart of that one, and that experience can also be of background use to you.
Senator Wells: Welcome, Mr. Lévesque. Thank you for your efforts on behalf of veterans in Canada.
You mentioned, very briefly, the outreach to youth. Of course, commemorations are in more ways than directly targeted at youth because they are the ones who will not have the direct memory of wars in many cases.
Other than just the online presence, which may be targeted at youth but which I think is also very general, do you have any other outreach projects to target youth? I'll just finish my preamble by saying I know that in St. John's, where I attend the commemorations on Remembrance Day and on the day we commemorate Beaumont-Hamel, July 1, which is a very sombre day in Newfoundland and Labrador, when I was a young, we would have just a very few people come to these commemorations. Now, 40, 50 years later, thousands upon thousands of people show up. I should not say that the sheer numbers shock me, but I'm surprised at the difference. There seems to be a greater level of awareness. What kinds of things are you doing in your outreach programs?
Mr. Lévesque: Thank you for your question. It's a terrific question. Youth engagement is an important element to commemoration. As well, we're very encouraged at the level of participation from youth and educators because they go hand in hand. You'll find that, up until 2020, we are not only developing online activities that educators can do, but we are also trying to do our best to get youth actively participating in many of our commemorative events. We are trying to encourage, as well, local schools and local organizations to do their own.
For example, for D-Day, both overseas and in Canada, we are attempting to reach out to youth groups that are going there to see what we can do to get them engaged as part of ceremonies in some way, either reading the act of commitment or laying a wreath or any of those things. It is important for them to be part of it. As well, it is not just the fact of getting the youth engaged in the ceremony. We want them to interact with our veterans. That's an important element as well so that the youth have an opportunity to meet with veterans for the veterans to explain their past history and share their stories with them.
That is what we are planning on doing for a lot of these activities that we are organizing as we speak now, not only for D-Day but others that we plan for the future.
Senator Wells: Thanks very much. Chair, if I may ask a second question: Of course, I am a senator from Newfoundland and Labrador, so I have a particular interest in that. As to the battles that Newfoundland and Newfoundland and Labrador have fought in prior to joining Canada, is there any engagement with that history?
Mr. Lévesque: Absolutely. From our point, although Newfoundland did not come into Confederation until 1949, the reality is we take them as if they were from the very beginning, from the outset. It means all the battles that Newfoundland fought, including Beaumont-Hamel and all of that, are going to be included as part of national ceremonies. Let's not forget that we have Beaumont-Hamel itself as one of our two largest sites overseas that we look after to make sure that Canadians are well reminded of the efforts and sacrifices that were made there. They will absolutely be incorporated into all of those events.
Senator Stewart Olsen: Welcome. Thank you for coming.
I have a few questions that probably are not very pleasant. I wonder why we are doing and spending such massive amounts of money to celebrate on foreign soil our victories and our tremendous sacrifices? I think that if we went province by province and spent money to actually engage people in the provinces on these commemoration days, so that all of the guys in the Legion, all of our cadets, recognize all of our regiments that did fight and have a chance to actually participate.
It's very limited. We take a plane full of veterans who are lucky enough to be able to go, and a million cameras, and a million this, and all the tourist money goes to a foreign country, and yet we here have a ton of leftover people who want to get in and engage with this. It's a perfect opportunity for our schoolchildren to attend these ceremonies, to actually take part in them, but by planning all of these very expensive excursions to foreign soil, we're leaving out a huge complement of our own, and we're not recognizing our regiments. Maybe some are defunct now, but they all took part in these horrific wars.
I would far prefer to see in Newfoundland a celebration of the tremendous sacrifices that they made, in my own province. We have such a pride in Atlantic Canada of our veterans and our contributions. That would be my preference.
I know you're saying we have things here, but to my mind, they are kind of superficial, because the main thing will be concentrated in France, Italy, wherever, but I know lots of veterans who cannot make that trip, but who could get to Fredericton or Moncton or wherever.
I'm just wondering why you don't put more money into local celebrations, local commemorations than we are putting into foreign commemorations.
The Chair: That's quite a preamble.
Senator Stewart Olsen: I'm really sorry, but I feel very strongly about this.
Mr. Lévesque: First, if I may, when the Department of Veterans Affairs was created, the two main purposes were making sure the veterans received the appropriate benefits that they deserve, and the other major aspect was commemoration. Commemoration is, nonetheless, a very important element of the department and what is created. That's part of the act. You have to remember, though, that the great majority of the funding that is put together and spent within the department is on veterans' benefits and services. Commemoration is a very small portion in comparison to the rest.
The second part is that I have only been with Veterans Affairs for the last year, and I can say that the way they are doing business is changing. You'll find that the old ways of having large pilgrimages are over from that sense. They are really over. They are looking at smaller groups of people, but encouraging a lot of Canadians to go there on their own and be part of it overseas.
That is what is happening with D-Day. For D-Day in particular, we have to remember that is a very special occasion from the point of view of age. This is truly the last time that any of those veterans will have an opportunity to go. You'll find that after that D-Day, it will be for the youth.
You'll find that we are working very diligently with all the veterans groups across Canada, the Royal Canadian Legion, ANAVETS, the Aboriginal communities. We're trying to encourage and work together so that we can have local communities do exactly what you've talked about, having local ceremonies so that veterans can attend them with their families.
I talked earlier about the commemorative partnership program that we have, and that is exactly the purpose it was created for. Local communities can apply to get some funding from our department so they can create these commemorative activities, to fund ceremonies and activities as they see fit. That has been a very successful way to encourage local communities to organize themselves.
When communities come forward to Veterans Affairs and ask us to help them organize, we will help them. At the same time, we want to be there acting as a catalyst to encourage communities to do their own as well.
We can't do this by ourselves. We have to be able to work with the local veterans groups so that we can get these local ceremonies and activities, because it's not always ceremonies. They are often activities that are put together.
To go back to what Senator Wells indicated earlier, we really want to encourage these activities and ceremonies to be not only about — yes, they are there to recognize veterans, absolutely, but we want the youth to be involved as well. We want the community to be involved as well. This is something that has been a challenge, for us to be able to work with these communities, to be able to move on to the next step. That has been very much a different way of doing business from the past.
Senator Stewart Olsen: Just one more, if I may.
I recognize all of that, but what I'm saying is we have to be the driver of these. To have communities want to do something and come forward is great, but if we encourage, say, the day of the celebration — I'm not suggesting we don't take part in the commemorations in Europe. I'm saying that shouldn't be the major part of our focus. There is no better way to engage youth and to do it by province.
If you would perhaps consider more of a national focus rather than an international focus, your planning may take a bit of a turn. That's what I would encourage, and I would ask you if you would consider that.
Mr. Lévesque: Thank you. Again, just to reiterate, for all of our major activities that we are going to have overseas, we are going to an equal and comparable effort in Canada on the same day so that we can have all Canadians able to share in commemorating the same sacrifices here in Canada and overseas.
As well, you can find there are a number of commemorative activities that we don't necessarily do overseas, if not anymore, certainly a lot less, that we try to do locally. The Battle of Hong Kong is an example. This year, we ended up doing something locally here in Ottawa. No, we didn't send anyone overseas.
That is another example of changing the commitment, trying to engage more Canadians here in Canada but nonetheless commemorating those battles and significant events that have happened.
[Translation]
Senator Day: Colonel Lévesque, welcome and thank you for appearing before us today. I want to congratulate you on your position and on the work you are doing.
Mr. Lévesque: Thank you.
Senator Day: I would first like to clarify something. You said that commemoration events will take place in Italy in 2014. I know that commemorative activities were held in Italy last year, but will that happen again this year?
Mr. Lévesque: We are trying to determine whether we could organize some activities there, perhaps in the fall. So we are still seeing what we can do, but the plan is in flux, and we have to work with our partners across government. We will see what will come of this. A commemoration may take place, but the plans have not been finalized.
Senator Day: Thank you for your answer.
[English]
My second question goes to your responsibilities. I think you indicated the funeral and burial program is part of your responsibilities, under commemoration, if I understood well. You know the work that the Last Post Fund has done over the past many years, and the Royal Canadian Legion, and General Louis Cuppens is deserving of special mention here for his perseverance and tenacity on this particular issue. I know he has said publicly he was glad to see the base expanded or the announcement of government policy to expand the base, but there's still no funding that has appeared for that. Presumably, we'll see that later on in budget implementation or estimates, but we've seen nothing thus far.
Mr. Lévesque: A point of clarification, sir: What do you mean by the ``base''? Do you mean the amount for funerals has doubled?
Senator Day: No, sorry. I mean the number of individuals who would be eligible. Previously, one had to be First or Second World War or Korean War, and now modern-day veterans will also be included in this program. So that's what I meant by expanding the base, which I support. I just would like to see some funding for it. More importantly, now that I've laid the groundwork, having taken a page out of Senator Stewart Olsen's manner of putting questions, could you tell me what the means test is, and will it be changing as a result of these other announced changes? Could you tell us about the means test?
Mr. Lévesque: Sure, I can tell you a little bit about the means test. I'm not an economics major, personally, but I can certainly explain it.
The means test is a measure of analyzing if the individual has enough funding in order to qualify. Obviously, if you have too much money, then you shouldn't be getting additional funds. But if you're not making enough, then they would consider you part of being considered for funding. That's the means testing.
Senator Day: Do you have numbers to go with that as to how much is enough?
Mr. Lévesque: If you'll just give me a second, please.
Senator Day: Thank you. While you're looking that up, maybe we could accept the Royal Canadian Legion's figure of about $10,000 for funeral and burial expenses.
Mr. Lévesque: The average cost in Canada is about $10,400 or so, average, for the sake of argument. When they look at the deceased's estate, they exempt the primary home, so they don't count that. They don't count the car and $12,015 in the calculation of their financial status.
Senator Day: So if a deceased's wife has $12,000 in the estate, then she is expected to take that $12,000 and pay the $10,000 to bury her deceased veteran husband? Do I understand that correctly?
Mr. Lévesque: Twelve thousand dollars is what she's allowed to keep before anything is applied to her.
Senator Day: So if she has $13,000, she takes a thousand dollars of her own money and you give her the rest?
Mr. Lévesque: No. What I'm saying is she's allowed to keep $12,000, the car and the home. After that, that's where they look at the fund. What I'm saying is that amount of money, the car and the home, that's what they're allowed to keep. If they don't have any more money than that, then they become eligible. Any costs after that, they would be able to be provided with the funding. If you added another $10,000, so she would have to have $22,000 worth of funds.
Senator Day: To pay for the full amount herself?
Mr. Lévesque: Right. That's what I'm saying.
Senator Day: All her assets except the house and car.
Mr. Lévesque: Car and $12,000. Does that clarify that?
Senator Day: It does. It's kind of disappointing, but you're not the policy man. I just wanted you to confirm what it is.
Mr. Lévesque: We have to remember that the funding that was put in place was for those who are the most economically disadvantaged. That's what it was for. That was always put into place. That's what the government has deemed what it's for. It's pretty generous, so the widow doesn't have to get out of her house; she still has her car and still has enough money to do the things she needs to.
Senator Day: Twelve thousand dollars' worth of assets.
Mr. Lévesque: Cash.
Senator Day: Cash. What about her walker and the motorized wheelchair that she has and all those things? That's all part of assets. That's not the house. That's not the car.
Mr. Lévesque: Cash.
Senator Day: Cash, sitting in the bank?
Mr. Lévesque: Yes.
Senator Day: You're sure of that?
Mr. Lévesque: Twelve thousand dollars in calculations of financial status.
Senator Day: You talked about the value of the estate earlier; now you're talking cash. Are you sure on that?
Mr. Lévesque: I'll come back.
Senator Day: I think maybe you should, because it makes a big difference.
The Chair: Senator Day, that's a very interesting point, because there's also the pension process and whether those amounts are computed or not in that, because there's a monthly income.
Senator Day: Yes.
The Chair: I think, just to add to that, if you don't mind, Mr. Lévesque, as you're looking for the response to that, there have been significant questions in regard to the eligibility versus people simply applying. I think it's important that we have heard that certain organizations have been telling everybody to apply, knowing full well they don't meet the basic criteria, and that's why you get skewed numbers of so many people not receiving it, but they didn't even come close to the criteria. There has been a question about whether the Last Post Fund was involved or not in that exercise.
However, I think it's important whether or not the criteria that are being used are valid, modern criteria, and we would like to have that policy framework sent to us so we can take a look at that, and with that, the history of that policy, if you don't mind. The other side of the coin was that some people were saying that those criteria are too low, that even if you had $20,000 bucks in the bank, it doesn't necessarily mean you have the capability of handling $10,000 or $22,000.
That arena would be most helpful, Mr. Lévesque, in giving us the policy framework, its history and criteria, because it's getting bad press from both sides, let alone the amount between DND, which is $13,000-something, versus Veterans Affairs Canada, which is now up to $10,400, which is significant, from the $3,000 before. I think we'll want to take a look in the future why the two have such a difference.
Thank you for that question.
Senator Day: Just to round this up, perhaps the colonel could give us the means test information for a veteran who is married and leaves an estate with a wife and for an unmarried veteran, because they are different.
The Chair: Let's hope the policy covers all those angles, if you would, please. Thank you for that question. I'm most appreciative of it, because it is a significant side of discussions in the veterans' world.
[Translation]
Senator Mockler: When we compare the financial statements for 2012-13 and those for 2014-15, we see an increase of $7 million for programs. Can you explain to the committee why the Canada Remembers Program expenditures have increased over the past few years?
Are you satisfied with the current level of your financial resources? I would like you to elaborate on that, as $7 million is a fairly large amount of money.
Mr. Lévesque: I can give you a partial answer. I have no corporate memory, so it is difficult for me to go back in time. I have not been with the department long enough to be able to provide you with a complete answer.
Senator Mockler: If you prefer, you can send your response to the clerk later.
The Chair: That would be perfectly acceptable.
Mr. Lévesque: I think that would be better, as I have no corporate memory on that data.
The Chair: Can you still give us some information?
Mr. Lévesque: The question on resources comes up often, and I always answer that we are doing the best we can with the resources we are given. The employees of the department and of my division in particular are very careful when it comes to spending. We make sure that most of our budgets are reserved for enabling veterans' groups to do what we are trying to do together. More specifically, the idea is to use the commemorative program I talked about to help communities have access to funding, so that they can organize their commemoration ceremonies and activities.
Regarding budgets for overseas commemorations, the amount set aside is minimal, by comparison. As for major ceremonies, such as the Vimy Ridge centennial in 2017, they are an exception rather than the norm, if I may say so, while the activities will be more important than others.
The cost of some of those events will clearly be a bit higher. It all depends on the number of people attending and the location where the events will take place. If the location is in France, Italy or the Netherlands, the costs will vary greatly. So we have to plan.
The financial assistance of $2,000 per veteran will help cover the travel costs for a number of veterans, so that they can attend the D-Day ceremonies held overseas. We are trying to use the resources in the best way possible by ensuring that the money is well spent.
The Chair: Veterans will receive $2,000 and will also travel on board Canadian Forces aircraft.
[English]
The Chair would like the opportunity to query the following. This is a significant era — you started with your presentation — the next six years or so of commemoration. Senator Wells has raised the fact that there's more and more interest in the commemoration, particularly grandchildren and so on. You're into a very positive time for outreach for veterans to the Canadian people and the communities and a time where the government can find a positive return on its financial engagements.
You've got individual initiatives going on in this time frame. The artillery and medical are creating a monument on McCrae, who wrote ``In Flanders Fields.'' You have Guelph in here. You've got a Canadian company that did Operation Husky, so the Sicilian campaign. They paid for that and they have that going on. Then you have your Veterans Affairs pot. But there's also DND and Canadian Heritage that are all looking at that same time frame.
Who is running this thing? Who is also deciding how much money is going to be moving between each to actually provide the volume you need to achieve the aims of not only military commemoration, of course, but commemoration as a whole? Where does all this fit into this whole national sense of commemoration?
Mr. Lévesque: Thank you, general. First, I don't know if you're aware, but there is an interdepartmental committee for commemoration, which meets quite regularly, more often these days, I would say. All the departments and agencies meet regularly, which includes team members from my division. It is a very large group of people. I can assure you that all the departments are super-pumped and excited about wanting to take part in all of these commemorative activities.
Meeting at a common table with this interdepartmental committee allows everyone to share what they're doing, in a sense putting together a national inventory of what everyone is doing so that we can dovetail all of our efforts together so that there's avoidance of duplication, putting our efforts in the right place and often working in partnership with different departments for some of the same events.
That is ongoing, and that will continue. That's a major contribution in that way.
You have to remember that the Minister of Canadian Heritage is technically responsible for all of the commemoration in Canada, which means that minister is responsible for the overall plan. Veterans Affairs is part of that group, but Veterans Affairs ends up running, if I can say, the ones that are overseas. Canadian Heritage is less involved with that. That has always been Veterans Affairs, outside, but in Canada, the Department of Canadian Heritage is the department that has the overall lead for all the commemorative activities, and we are working together to make sure that those activities are dovetailed.
The Chair: I'm taking from that that somebody is building a plan within a framework of an atmosphere, philosophy or guidance into what commemoration will be over the next six years. If that exists, we would be keen to see that in order to give us a feel for where everybody is fitting into it and what their plans might be. The House of Commons committee that is looking at this is reticent in providing information on what their angle to this is. There is a committee looking at heritage, and we don't seem to be able to get at it. Somebody has to feed us this bigger picture, but I would like you to at least come back to me and say you can't find it or you've found it or have spoken to somebody who can.
Mr. Lévesque: The Department of Canadian Heritage is the one that would have to provide you that information. They are the lead. We are one of many departments that contribute, but they have the lead.
The Chair: I'll take that. If you don't mind, members, I will query the department for that information and provide it secretarially.
My point goes along with Senator Stewart Olsen. It's fine to go to phase two of Vimy Ridge, although they're not doing the full phase — only part — and I find that a shame. Vimy Ridge is over there. The sacrifices came from here, and there's nothing here about Vimy Ridge. In line with what Senator Stewart Olsen is saying, what are you doing to repatriate those battlefields here, with all the regiments that we spoke of and all the different structures? Is there a concept of trying to make what's over there more tangible here? I'm not saying build a second Vimy Ridge, but do you have that within your conceptual framework of commemoration?
Mr. Lévesque: Part of our conceptual framework that we talked about was that for all of our major activities overseas, we're placing effort on having similar programs and activities in Canada. When the time comes, and it is a little far ahead for Vimy in 2017, and we have D-Day coming up —
The Chair: It's not far ahead if you want to build a monument, even a small one.
Mr. Lévesque: Part of our framework is to make sure we have ceremonies that are held here in Canada. There will be a major Vimy ceremony and a Beaumont-Hamel one here in Canada, as well as all these major things happening in Canada.
The Chair: We'll add another five minutes to this session. I have two senators who wish to go on second round.
Senator Wells: You had an excellent question earlier, and it was the question I was going to ask. Well done on that.
Can you tell me about the process for deciding what is to be commemorated? I know the ones we're all familiar with, the high-level ones. But if a community group, a Legion, one of the associations had something that they wanted to partner with you on, how would they go about doing that?
Mr. Lévesque: First they would contact us in one of many ways. We have some offices across the country. They could start at the local level, or they contact us either in Ottawa or Prince Edward Island and we would follow up accordingly.
What would typically happen is a local community would join up with a local veterans group, branch of the Royal Canadian Legion, and then send us a proposal as part of our commemorative partnership program. Typically that's how it begins. In terms of the choices, Veterans Affairs doesn't say no because of what the commemorative activity is, if it's truly commemorative. If somebody wants to do D-Day, Beaumont-Hamel or pick whatever battle they want, and if it's legitimate, real and Canadian — and they have a plan and identify what they want to do and how they want to implement that plan — Veterans Affairs will do their utmost to support that, either from a financial point of view, on- site support, depending on what it is.
Again, we often encourage them to work with partners so we can maximize all of our resources. Every situation is different. Typically, most of them are small, local level, and they go as high as regional and national events. Everything depends on the organization, what they want to do, what they want to achieve. Some of them want it very local and low-key, and others want to be super engaged with all levels of communities. I can say that those who encourage youth and the greater community tend to be more successful, both from an output and as well as from a financial point of view, while those who just keep to themselves usually don't tend to do as well. We're trying to encourage them to be more open and involved with the overall communities.
Senator Day: Mr. Chair, you asked part of my question as well, and that's what was intended to be included in the $2,000 per veteran who may be going back to Normandy. I have had the great privilege of representing the Senate at visits. In fact, when Normandy was open, the visiting centre was open, I was there. I've seen the work that Veterans Affairs does in supporting the veterans, medical support, arranging for meals and transportation, lodging, all of that. Are you saying you're just going to give them $2,000 and tell them to do all of that on their own?
Mr. Lévesque: Partially. The approach that Major-General Richard Rohmer, a special adviser to the minister on D- Day who is a D-Day veteran —
Senator Day: Air force, as I recall.
Mr. Lévesque: Air force. He was a pilot. That is the approach that they've gone forward with. As you know, we're hopeful to be able to get some air buses to be able to make room for veterans, hopefully, and that will help. However, the $2,000 means they will have to make their own arrangements in terms of accommodations and the rest. The $2,000 can go towards transportation, meals, any of those costs for themselves, and it also includes costs related to their caregiver if that's what they want to include as well. The $2,000 is financial assistance; it's not paying for all of the trip. But it's nonetheless a substantial amount of money that the veteran can do with as they please.
The Chair: Thank you. We will be approaching Canadian Heritage to get the big picture. However, from your side, I'm still interested in the following: Where is your commemorative effort linking Vimy and the one hundred and fiftieth together to make something significant that's going to be lasting? It's one thing to buy cake and put in a park, and I hope we'll do better than centennial rinks, although it was excellent in those days. What will you put that will have a permanent focus for Canada that's linking the one hundred and fiftieth and Vimy together, or is that at all being considered?
Mr. Lévesque: First of all, it is part of the road to 2017, so there's an important element of that. We are working with Canadian Heritage. The plans are being talked about and discussed, but we're a little ahead of ourselves right now. We'll see where it will come, but we're not there yet. There's still a while before we have anything definite. It is an important link to have between the one hundred and fiftieth and the one hundredth for Vimy. It is an important linkage that will happen.
The Chair: Colleagues, I think it's important that we have another sitrep in six months at most — not a year — on where they're going and how all this is being brought together. Either it could be of great significance in pulling the country together or it could create so much friction that the ones who will pay in the end will be the veterans, who will be looked at from a jaundiced perspective because this has been screwed up. It behooves us to keep an eye out.
[Translation]
We congratulate you and encourage you to move forward in these areas. Had it not been for the initiative of the Department of National Defence and a few others, as part of the millennium project, there would have been no Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. That was not suggested by veterans. I hope you will move forward in many areas to bring about something concrete.
Mr. Lévesque: Absolutely, general.
The Chair: We will follow your activities.
[English]
Colleagues, I wish to end this session.
As you remember, last week or the week before the minister indicated to the house committee that's studying the New Veterans Charter that I should attend not as the chair but as an individual to the committee. I've been invited to be a witness tomorrow afternoon at the House of Commons Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs on the New Veterans Charter. I go there as a retired general, a veteran, a senator; more on that side, but certainly not as your chair. I don't have that mandate and I will not do that.
(The subcommittee adjourned.)