Proceedings of the Subcommittee on
Veterans Affairs
Issue No. 3 - Evidence - March 9, 2016
OTTAWA, Wednesday, March 9, 2016
The Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs of the Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence met this day at 12:05 p.m. to study the services and benefits provided to members of the Canadian Forces; to veterans; to members and former members of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and their families.
Senator Joseph A. Day (Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Chair: Honourable colleagues, we are continuing the mandate given to this subcommittee by the Senate Chamber to perform a study on the services and benefits provided to members of the Canadian Forces; to veterans; to members and former members of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and their families.
We are very pleased to have appearing today — and he has been able to work into his busy schedule an appearance with our subcommittee — the Honourable Ralph Goodale, Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness. Amongst many other things, his responsibilities include the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. We're pleased he's accompanied by Public Safety Canada witnesses Gina Wilson, Associate Deputy Minister; and Lori MacDonald, Assistant Deputy Minister, Emergency Management and Programs Branch.
Back for another appearance before us, and we welcome you back, are Daniel Dubeau, Chief Human Resources Officer, from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police; and Sylvie Châteauvert, Director General, Occupational Health and Safety Branch.
We welcome to you all. I will point out — the minister, I'm sure, is aware of this, but maybe some of the viewing public are not — that this committee did do an interim report on this mandate prior to the last election. That report is entitled Interim Report on the Operational Stress Injuries of Canada's Veterans.
This provides a good basis for us from which to delve into our session today. We will have for you, just for a quick reference, what is often referred to as the mandate letter for each of the ministers. That mandate letter for Minister Goodale is in the process of being circulated to you as well.
Mr. Minister, you have the floor. Thank you very much for being here.
Hon. Ralph Goodale, P.C., M.P., Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness: Thank you very kindly. I want to thank you and the members of the committee for the opportunity to discuss this very important matter. Your work has already made an important contribution to this very difficult issue of the mental health of front-line employees, and I look forward to the discussion today and, more particularly, to your reports when they are made final for the advice on the recommendations that will be there. I am certainly glad to see this work continuing in the spirit that was started some time ago by our friend and former colleague Roméo Dallaire, who is obviously profoundly interested in this subject matter.
With you, I would like to join in welcoming the officials from my department and from the RCMP, who deal with these sorts of issues every day in their departmental responsibilities.
[Translation]
As a member of Parliament, I have heard repeatedly from the public safety community that more needs to be done for public safety officers who suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) and other operational stress injuries.
[English]
I have long felt that much more needs to be done for those whom we ask as a matter of public policy to stand in harm's way to protect and keep Canadians safe. From my perspective, building a resilient Canada starts with the health and safety of our first-line responders.
Now, as Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, I have a rather unique vantage point from which to observe the important work of our front-line officers, one that has not only deepened my appreciation and respect for their contribution to our collective safety and security but has also strengthened my resolve to make sure they have the support they need when they are dealing with PTSD or OSI challenges.
That includes not only those who we immediately think of as being at risk of PTSD and other occupational stress injuries, like police officers, firefighters and paramedics, but also others in the employment of the federal government, such as border guards and correctional officers.
I am pleased to be part of a government that shares that deep interest and firm resolve. As you have pointed out, Mr. Chair, it is not only mentioned in our election platform from last year but also embedded in the mandate letter that the Prime Minister has given to me in this portfolio.
While there are numerous examples of the kinds of issues that cause PTSD or OSI, the tragedy earlier this year at La Loche, Saskatchewan, is illustrative of the work first responders are called on to do sometimes in the most trying and dangerous circumstances. As you know, that was a tragic situation of a mass shooting. Four people were killed, seven others injured and many of the injuries occurred in a school.
The first responders in that community did a tremendous job. The RCMP, health workers, volunteer firefighters and others not only rushed to the initial crisis, which they brought under control in less than five minutes, but also helped to re-establish public safety and stability as the community reeled in shock.
Thankfully, this type of event is relatively rare in Canada. However, it is a sobering reminder of the critical role that first responders of all kinds play in our communities and of the inherent risks involved in the work they do.
Given the traumatic events public safety officers can witness or experience in their day-to-day work, they are, of course, particularly susceptible to PTSD and other occupational stress injuries. As we know, too often they simply do not have access to the resources and the support systems necessary to help them cope.
[Translation]
Mr. Chair, our government is deeply concerned by the state of their mental health and well-being. I know that the committee members share that concern and I wish to thank the committee for its work on this important topic.
[English]
We know that PTSD takes a devastating toll on public safety officers themselves. It also goes beyond that. It affects their families and friends, the organizations in which they serve and, more broadly, the resilience of our communities and our country. That is why our government is taking concrete action to support them.
As has been mentioned, the Prime Minister has asked me to lead the development of a coordinated national action plan on PTSD. Because of my department's mandate and its national leadership role on public safety matters, I think the department is well positioned to provide the national leadership that is needed to advance this work.
As committee members will have heard already over the course of your study to date, there are a number of local and organization-specific initiatives in place to support public safety personnel coping with the effects of PTSD. From a federal perspective, for example, I note that the committee has heard from the various federal government programs and services provided to serving members and veterans of the Canadian Armed Forces and the RCMP suffering from occupational stress injuries.
Our government is very keen to build on that important foundation, on all the important work that has already been done in this field, as we develop a more comprehensive national plan.
Officials in my department, in collaboration with their colleagues in the Health portfolio, at National Defence and Veterans Affairs, are working diligently on options to meet the commitment that the Prime Minister has outlined.
In January of this year, my parliamentary secretary chaired a national round table to kick off the broader consultations that will inform our national action plan. The round table brought together more than 50 members of the academic community, not-for-profit organizations, union representatives, the tri-service leadership — fire, police and paramedics — operational public safety officers and all three levels of government. The round table identified a lot of consensus among those various representatives, a high sense of priority about the importance of this issue, and it developed some very good momentum.
Some of the key takeaways that emerged from the round table discussion are these: First, there is a need for a unified, grassroots approach to identifying and addressing PTSD and other operational stress injuries. Second, we have to fight the stigma which many fear will attach to those who identify their problem or reach out for help. Third, services and treatment need to be accessible and timely. Fourth, resilience and reintegration back into the workforce for public safety officers is a hugely important consideration. And, fifth, we need national coordinated research.
In this regard, I mentioned Dr. Nicholas Carleton at the University of Regina, who is an acknowledged national and international expert and leader in this crucial field. He is networked into a large array of expertise right across the country. That brainpower, I think, will be exceedingly useful to us as we develop our action plan. We will be looking closely at all of these areas as we move forward.
A key element of this type of engagement is the opportunity to be open about PTSD or OSI in the hopes that talking about this issue in a candid manner will help reduce that societal stigma. It will also build the partnerships that are necessary for solutions.
We need to broaden our scope of consultations to better include indigenous communities, for example; health practitioners who actually deal daily with first responders; and family members and caregivers of those who are living with OSI.
The round table in January was the first of many opportunities — today is another — where we will pursue with our partners to help us define the challenge and develop a national way forward and drive greater momentum.
Mr. Chair, I would conclude my remarks by reaffirming the government's strong commitment to get this right. We will pour our full energies into providing public safety officers with what they so rightly deserve; that is, the highest level of knowledge, understanding, support and care to make sure that society treats them properly. A strong, healthy, resilient public safety community is necessary to ensure the safety and security of our country.
I thank you for your attention. I thank you for the opportunity to be here, and I look forward to the discussion that we're about to have.
The Chair: Thank you very much for those introductory remarks.
You mentioned the University of Regina and the work that is going on there.
Mr. Goodale: That's right, the University of Regina.
The Chair: We have found in our work thus far that there's a lot of good work going on in a lot of different places. I'm hoping this is being coordinated and that your good offices can help with that coordination. I know there's an institute out of Queen's University, and work there is being done by Dr. Alice Aiken. It is mind-boggling the number of different projects involved now in the different universities.
Mr. Goodale: Our objective, Mr. Chair, is to network all of that together and to pull it together in a coherent way. All of these academics and research officers who have taken up this challenge have a great deal to contribute to the solutions.
The Chair: Absolutely.
Senator White: Thanks to all of you for being here. I know some of you are here often. I do appreciate it.
For full disclosure, I'm a retired member of the RCMP and a veteran.
I have two short questions. The first one is around veteran benefits for RCMP members and their access to the Department of National Defence and Veterans Affairs. I raised this with the deputy commissioner previously, minister, so it is not a surprise to him. The primary manner in which an RCMP retiree accesses, for example, OSI/PTSD assistance from Veterans Affairs would be to go through a disability process, which sometimes takes 18 to 36 months before they can actually get a benefit.
I do understand — and we have had the deputy minister from Veterans Affairs tell us they would never turn anyone away. However, I think it should be entrenched in their obligations that they treat a retired RCMP member the same as they treat a retired DND member, in particular for specific instances like OSI/PTSD.
Mr. Goodale: Access, Senator White, is certainly an issue that we will be looking at in this effort that I have undertaken in response to the Prime Minister's mandate.
We have learned of incidents in other contexts where access to the right kind of treatment and services was delayed for some months. That was the subject of a report by the Auditor General a couple of years ago. That situation needs to be rectified.
The timeliness of a response is exceedingly important here. We will be carefully examining how quickly the government procedures can respond to a real human crisis. We will obviously be looking at ways to expedite the reaction because people getting the care at a critical moment can save another tragedy.
Senator White: Thank you for that, minister. I appreciate it. I am not suggesting you are not going to do that. I anticipate that we will be sending a recommendation at some point asking for the exact same access for RCMP retirees as DND retirees.
Mr. Goodale: I would be happy to have that recommendation.
Senator White: The second question is about police agencies that operate in theatre overseas under the auspices — agents, I would argue — of the RCMP.
When I was Chief of the Ottawa Police, I had a number of officers who operated for the RCMP, whether it was in Haiti, Afghanistan or other locations. They have no access to any federal supports when they return. The cost is borne directly by the taxpayers of the city, municipality or province for which they worked before they left, yet the injury came about as a result of their work as agents for the RCMP.
Could the minister take under advisement that there be a review as to how they're handled? Those officers, and I had a number of them who came back with challenges, should not be the sole responsibility of the agency that they're under hire for before and after the OSI/PTSD injury happened.
Mr. Goodale: Senator White, policing activities as part of Canada's international commitment to peacekeeping are an extremely important and effective part of what Canada does in its international engagements. In many respects, the feedback that comes from those international policing operations is exceedingly positive about what our police officers do in providing immediate police services, in training and in contributing to greater stability and security in other difficult and challenged parts of the world.
Of the police officers who are engaged in that, my understanding is about 30 per cent are members of the RCMP and 70 per cent are drawn from other police forces across Canada. In fact, the largest portion come from municipal and other police forces, with the RCMP still contributing a very significant number at 30 per cent.
They are exposed to situations which can clearly result in operational stress and the consequences of PTSD. Again, in being comprehensive, in developing a national strategy, we want to make sure that all of those very courageous Canadians who are serving their country in that way have access to the support services they need. It shouldn't make a difference whether they are directly a member of the national police force or are participating in a national policing operation but are a member of a municipal police force. They all deserve top-notch care and attention, equally.
Senator White: From my perspective, minister, they should be treated as a reservist is treated with the military, because that's really how they act. They act in reserve of a regular member of the RCMP.
Look, the RCMP is stretched thin; we understand that. I would argue that you can't do this anymore without the support of all 66,000 police officers across this country.
I fully support international peacekeeping and the RCMP mandate, and the program they've set in place I think is very healthy. If we treat them as a reservist like the military does, we will end up in the same place where everyone is treated equally when they return from the exact same situation.
Thank you very much for that, minister.
Mr. Goodale: That's a good technique. We will think our way through that.
[Translation]
Senator Dagenais: Thank you very much for your presentation, Mr. Minister.
First of all, as I am sure you are aware, yesterday was a lobbying day for the Canadian Police Association. I imagine that you met some police officers.
[English]
Mr. Goodale: I certainly did.
Senator Dagenais: Yes, I'm sure.
[Translation]
Some municipal police officers came to my office and asked me to give you the message that they are also interested in the assistance program provided for those suffering from post-traumatic stress syndrome. You mentioned in your presentation that a roundtable had been organized, during which you met with police union representatives.
I know a little about the situation in Haiti, where MINUSTAH is run by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. I was a Sûreté du Québec officer for 39 years and I had to go to Haiti twice in my capacity as president of the association. I know that a lot of officers from many municipalities are working in the same situation as the RCMP officers. So, I imagine that, if they come back with post-traumatic stress disorders, they will be able to access the same treatment as members of the RCMP. So that is good news.
I told the officers that I would pass the message onto you, and I have done so.
[English]
Mr. Goodale: And message received.
Senator Dagenais: Thank you, minister. I appreciate it.
[Translation]
Last year, the committee heard that the number of RCMP members receiving treatment related to stress had gone from 52 in 2010 to 239 in 2014. Could you tell us whether that upward trend is still as significant, or whether it has gone down, or whether the number might be higher today?
[English]
Mr. Goodale: I will ask Daniel Dubeau to respond to that. He would have the latest numbers.
Daniel Dubeau, Chief Human Resources Officer, Royal Canadian Mounted Police: Thank you, senator, for that question.
As I indicated before, the numbers have been trending up, and we believe the numbers have trended up only because of the education piece, the education that we provide to our members.
As we deployed our mental health strategy, we talked about mental health and trying to remove the stigma, and we're seeing more and more people coming forward to seek help, including going to Veterans Affairs.
Will the number stabilize? I can't answer that. Will it drop? We anticipate they will continue going up. As people become aware of what is happening to them and understanding that it is an injury, they're seeking the support of Veterans Affairs plus our internal services, and we will see the numbers go up. They have been going up steadily.
What is positive about that is, as they're going up we're able to give them more help and reintegrate many of them into the workplace. We have 1,200 or 1,400 of them working with us currently who have suffered injuries. We're calling them operational stress injuries. It is an injury. They're able to integrate into our workforce and work appropriately.
[Translation]
Senator Dagenais: Mr. Minister, or perhaps it would be Mr. Dubeau, do you have any information that would tell us about the level of satisfaction of the RCMP veterans who have been treated for post-traumatic stress injuries? Are they satisfied with the treatment? Whatever the case, would it be possible to provide us with any information, if you keep statistics on the level of satisfaction of members who have been treated?
Sylvie Châteauvert, Director General, Occupational Health and Safety Branch, Royal Canadian Mounted Police: We refer to the clinics operated under VAC leadership and, in that context, I have had discussions with the national director of the program. Essentially, he states that there is a high level of satisfaction.
When people come back to work or home, our RCMP physicians do the necessary liaison and monitoring to make sure that the satisfaction level is good. If problems remain, we follow up on them. However, VAC keeps the statistics about the patients' level of satisfaction, so they could give you better information on that subject.
Senator Dagenais: Do I understand that the employee assistance program and the post-traumatic shock treatment program also apply to family members?
Ms. Châteauvert: It can be made available to family members up to a certain point. It is an outpatient program. Essentially, the client goes to the clinic and receives services there. In that way, the service is seen as a complete entity. So some services, but not all, extend to family members.
Senator Dagenais: It is an extended service. Thank you very much, Mr. Minister.
[English]
Mr. Goodale: I would like to just add one point.
One of the recommendations that came out of the roundtable we held in Regina in January was that we needed to make sure that this set of consultations we are involved in to build the national action plan actually made a point of talking to people who had suffered OSI and received treatments in order to find out how that had worked out for them as individuals as well as their families and friends.
A lot of that information at this stage is probably anecdotal, but it would be valuable for us to hear from people who have experienced this personally, then make an assessment of how well they have or have not recovered.
The Chair: Mr. Minister, you described the roundtable you had in Saskatchewan in January as a first step. Can you tell us where you see it going from here as you work toward developing this national action plan?
Mr. Goodale: Senator, it's obvious from the discussion we have had just in the last few moments around this table that a great many Canadians are intensely interested in this subject matter. We want to make sure that they are heard.
I was very interested to see when we put together the roundtable in Regina in January how rapidly everybody who was potentially invited came forward to say, "Yes, we will be there, and can we bring some extra people and could you make sure that so and so is included?'' It was a great outpouring of very genuine interest.
So we took the meeting in Regina as a very good beginning, but it signalled that there will need to be other opportunities elsewhere in the country, as well, to continue to receive this input.
So we will plan a series of other consultations to make sure that those among the potential victims of OSI, those who provide services to them, those who do the research and the analysis in academic institutions, and their employers and supervisors, all have ample opportunity to tell us what they think we need to know.
We'll also be following the work of this committee because you have had a big head start in this subject matter, and you have done some excellent work.
I would hope that by the middle of this year we will be able to begin to pull those various threads together and begin to shape out what the action plan will look like. Until we hear all of the evidence, I can't be definitive about the time frame. But I do know that so many people from the paramedics, firefighters, police forces and the Armed Forces personnel and veterans have made the point that this is big, it is serious and it's urgent. So the sooner we can get the shape of the action plan in place, the better for all concerned.
Gina Wilson, Associate Deputy Minister, Public Safety Canada: You asked about where we see it going. The fact is that people came together. Many expressed that it was the first of its kind, so it was the first time many people did make those connections. There are off-shoots from that meeting where different, smaller groups start to work together, such as research. The research people connected for the first time, so they started to plan various initiatives. I would say that other networks were formed as a result.
There was also a strong request that we take those consultations back to the front line — back to police officers and paramedics who were not necessarily associated with representation but to the front line, as minister mentioned, and to families and so on. So that goes back to the grassroots approach that we talked about.
Definitely there is consensus around stigma and the words we use.
Just the fact that we had a round table, there are already off-shoots starting to build from that point.
The Chair: Do you see this as having a scope and applicability broader than the public service and the area of jurisdiction of the federal government? The minister mentioned National Defence, for example, but there are also first responders at the level of provincial jurisdiction. That's a huge, broad swath of public servants at various levels. Do you see your work and the roundtable leading in a direction that would include all of those areas and interests?
Lori MacDonald, Assistant Deputy Minister, Emergency Management and Programs Branch, Public Safety Canada: Actually, we do see it. When we look at the numbers, it is about 250,000 people who do public safety work every day at the federal-provincial-territorial levels.
One of the things that we established very quickly as a result of the round table is a tri-services working group. It is to get at the point that the previous senator made with respect to including the municipalities in there — the people who are delivering those services each and every day — as well as working groups with the federal level and an advisory council to take in the very learned experiences that you have heard about already so that we can tie all of those together in a really collaborative kind of way that you're speaking about.
The Chair: To end my line of questioning: The mandate letter talks about "public safety officers'' and that they are not restricted to the federal government department but are much broader than that.
Mr. Goodale: PTSD doesn't seem to have any constitutional boundaries.
The Chair: Exactly.
Mr. Goodale: It affects people who are called on to do this serious work at all levels.
What I was interested in when we first began to extend the invitations for the round table in Regina in January is that provincial governments indicated very quickly that they were interested in joining the conversation. Because the event was in Saskatchewan, a number of provincial ministers and senior provincial officials were in attendance for the discussion.
We also raised this issue at the last federal-provincial-territorial meeting of Justice and Public Safety ministers. Clearly, the provincials are very anxious to be engaged. That's the same indication we're getting from the Federation of Canadian Municipalities.
The Chair: Thank you. Next is the chair of our parent National Security and Defence Committee.
Senator Lang: Welcome, Mr. Minister. We certainly appreciate the position and the responsibility you have.
I would like to go to a specific area, and that's the question of finances and the ability to pay for the services we're talking about. My understanding is that the RCMP, over the course of the last number of months, reassigned an additional 600 RCMP personnel to the terrorist file that is threatening Canada. At the same time, they still have the day-to-day responsibilities of policing in all our communities. Now we have a situation where we can see that significant financial obligations will be or are already with the government in respect to the question of operational stress injuries that have increased, as Senator Dagenais referred to, and various other areas of responsibilities.
The concern I have is that we keep going back to the well and saying, "Find it within your budget,'' when at the same time we're asking you to do more with less. Do you have any idea of the financial obligations that have been brought forward by the RCMP in order to meet their responsibilities that we're asking them to assume over and above the financial commitments that have been made?
Mr. Goodale: I would ask Dan Dubeau to comment on that in terms of the specific numbers as the situation presently stands.
To provide context going forward, we are identifying a new area that is not yet entirely defined in terms of its consequences. But as we lay out the action plan, we will also have to provide advice on how the obligations get paid for. We ask our first responders to do some very serious work to keep Canadians safe. You can't walk away from the financial consequences when there is a physical or psychological impact caused by the very work that we ask them to do.
I think part of our review also includes an assessment of the fiscal consequences of the kinds of damages and injuries that they may suffer. As my associate deputy minister said, this is the first time there has been an examination of this. Maybe the conventional wisdom years gone by was, well, this is a relatively minor little thing and departments can cope with it by internal reallocation. I think we have to recognize that there is a serious cost associated with this if we're going to do the research and provide the care, support and treatment that are required and bring people back into the workforce as rapidly as possible. We have not quantified that yet, but it has to be part of the examination because you can't rob Peter to pay Paul.
Senator Lang: I totally agree.
You may want to comment with respect to the responsibility of the Department of National Defence, the RCMP and Veterans Affairs in trying to pull this together under one particular agency of responsibility so that we're not duplicating services in the various areas of responsibility.
Mr. Goodale: That's good advice. We need to be efficient and cost effective at what we do. A number of departments are involved. We will have to sort our way through what the very best administrative structure is to make sure that we're providing our services effectively and efficiently.
Dan, do you have something to add?
Mr. Dubeau: You were right on the 600. You asked me about the number. It was 600 that we redeployed after October 22. Obviously they were national security files where public security and safety were at risk, so we did do a reprioritization. I believe that number is now at about 450, redeployment of federal resources. We have not touched many of our contract resources — that is more our federal resources that we redeployed.
Having said that, you are right, with prioritizing one file, another file may have to wait in abeyance until we can get that worked out.
Senator Lang: Another file is definitely held in abeyance. I raise this with respect to the RCMP because in fairness to their responsibilities, we have a responsibility — and I think the minister said it — to ensure that they have the resources to do what we ask them to do.
My next question is about the RCMP auxiliary constable program. We talked about first responders. Unfortunately over the course of the last number of years their mandate has been reduced somewhat in respect to how they go about volunteering and being able to accompany various RCMP on their daily routine checks and various things of that nature. Subsequently, I'm also told that the number of volunteers is starting to be less and less because they see their role being diminished in respect to this type of organization and how they can respond and be part of the general policing in these communities. I think it's very unfortunate when we have a program that is now 50 years of age and has been so successful. Also, it has provided further legitimacy for police forces within smaller communities when members of the public volunteer to work with them. It broadens the acceptance and recognition of what police forces do on a day-to-day basis.
With respect to the various responsibilities that we have regarding first responders, along with the question of whether benefits can be extended to them in some way or another, could the minister undertake to review this particular mandate and to ensure that we do everything we can to continue the program and to get the necessary volunteers to maintain the program?
Mr. Goodale: I'm happy to take a look at it, Senator Lang. The important thing to note, though, is that these auxiliary personnel, while performing extremely valuable functions in support of the RCMP, are not themselves RCMP officers.
Senator Lang: I know; I understand that.
Mr. Goodale: Their safety is an important consideration for their commanding officers and for the executive management of the force. Obviously we want them to be well and properly engaged. They perform very valuable functions, but at the same time, they are not trained and equipped to be in the same potentially dangerous circumstances as full-fledged officers of the force.
Dan, do you have something to add?
Mr. Dubeau: I agree, Senator Lang. I believe that's the refocusing of the program. It's not that we're changing the mandate; it is only because of the safety issue after the tragic death of Constable Wynn. We had one of our auxiliaries involved in that. We had the ESDC look at us. The program is designed for volunteers to do certain types of functions and not others because they are not trained at the same level nor are they equipped. That's the refocus now of the program, namely, how can they still assist us as volunteers? We still want our auxiliaries to work with us, but they may not be able to do certain activities such as going on patrol with a member. They are not armed and that's a big safety risk for us. We can't have that.
Senator Lang: I just want to lay this on the table and I will leave it with the minister.
Mr. Goodale: Please do.
Senator Lang: We can find five different reasons why not to do something. We can always use safety as reason why we can't do something, and, at the end of the day, we wind up with a program that isn't of much value.
Everyone in a small community feels it has been important for the community at large and for the local police force. I guess I'm saying that if the training has been insufficient and you feel it's lacking in some degree, perhaps we should look at more training as opposed to saying we're just going to eliminate this. I think there are a number of ways of looking at this.
I understand the force's situation where they say, "Look, we have to make sure everybody can do the job we're asking them to do,'' but at the same time, I think we can proceed with the program, perhaps with a bit more training. You're basically going to eliminate it because you will find that quite a number are going to say, "Look, I don't feel that valued, so I'm not going to bother volunteering.'' We don't want to go there, would be my point.
I'll leave it there.
Mr. Goodale: I hear your point. I think we all find the auxiliary program useful and valuable. People need to be well- trained and well-equipped for the circumstances they will have to face. If there is a training issue involved here, I'm more than happy to look at that in conjunction with the force and with the commissioner.
You have asked me to have another look at it, and I am certainly prepared to do that because I agree with you that it is a valuable dimension of what the RCMP do.
Senator Jaffer: Thank you very much for your presentation. I am really happy that the chair has invited non- members to also be here to have this rare opportunity to ask you questions.
Minister, I listened to you carefully. In my other life I was very much involved in PTSD issues, so I have some knowledge about it. For me, PTSD is sort of the end of the thing. There are many mental health issues that happen along the line. Your mandate clearly says that you are ". . . to ensure that the RCMP and all other parts of your portfolio are workplaces free from harassment and sexual violence.''
I bring this message to you from your RCMP members in B.C. who asked me to find an opportunity to publicly thank you for the way you so promptly and helpfully reacted to the remarks regarding the recent harassment issues that arose recently. The women members in my province that I spoke to are very grateful, but they were not happy with the commissioner. They felt the commissioner still does not get the issues. I would like you personally to tell the commissioner that he may learn some lessons from you. Mental health issues cover a whole range of different issues, and the culture of the RCMP is tough.
I'm a great admirer of the RCMP. When I first came to this country, they were most inclusive and most helpful. I have nothing but good things to say about the RCMP, but there is always improvement.
Minister, I would like you to be even tougher, now, and look at mental health issues around harassment. Definitely it affects your members and then people take longer leave. In all kinds of things it shows. I ask that when you look at this whole issue, you look at the harassment issue within the RCMP.
The other issue I really want to speak to you about is that with mental health come the issues around who is part of the RCMP. Earlier on, many years ago, there was a real push for diversity. Members in B.C. tell me that the push for diversity is not how the RCMP reflects the community that it works in. It's not as promoted as much as it was before.
My first question to you is: How are we doing as far as diversity is concerned, not just in the low members but in promotion as well?
Mr. Goodale: Well, I would ask Dan and Sylvia if they have any specifics statistics they can share today or produce for the committee about trends in diversity.
The commissioner and I have had some conversations about increasing the representation of women in all the ranks, as well indigenous and other Aboriginal peoples, together with the full cultural scope of our country.
The Aga Khan, who is a great friend of Canada, has said that he feels that our country is the finest expression of pluralism that the world has ever seen. We need to work at that in order to maintain that very fine reputation and to safeguard the values that underpin that reputation. Making sure that our national institutions are properly reflective of the true character of the country is an important part of that.
There is hardly an institution that is more truly national than the RCMP. That point needs to be constantly reinforced and re-emphasized.
On your earlier point about harassment and the two issues of mental health concerns within our national institutions, harassment and safe workplaces are obviously interconnected. You will note that both of them are explicitly mentioned in my mandate letter. Wherever the interconnections or the crosswalks may be, I have the ultimate responsibility for both. I take both of them very, very seriously.
The commissioner and I have had several conversations about the harassment issues. I have taken some steps and he has taken some steps. We're working in conjunction with each other to make sure that we deliver very effectively on the instructions that the Prime Minister has given.
Everyone, whether a member of the RCMP or a civilian employee of the RCMP or in any way else engaged with the national police force, needs to know that when they go to work every day, they will be treated with respect and dignity for the jobs that they do. That's extremely important to me and to the Prime Minister. We will make sure that that obligation in my mandate letter is fulfilled.
Senator Jaffer: Minister, I'm trying to be respectful, but when the time comes for the next commissioner to be appointed, I hope you will look at some women members in the RCMP. You have some tremendous women working for you. That's just my humble request to you.
Mr. Goodale: Yesterday, on a very important day, International Women's Day, I was delighted to celebrate the day, in part, with women members of the RCMP. I'm happy to report that in Saskatchewan, the commander in charge of training at Depot Division, Regina, is Assistant Commissioner Louise La France and the Commanding of "F'' Division in Saskatchewan is Assistant Commissioner Brenda Butterworth-Carr, a very distinguished member. By the way, in conjunction with her other responsibilities, she was very much on the scenes, hands-on, dealing with the situation in La Loche. She did a remarkable job.
Senator Jaffer: We all now know her and are so very proud of her.
Minister, I also want to take this opportunity to say to you that the RCMP has done tremendous work internationally, especially in the field I work on, rape investigation. As Mr. Dubeau will tell you, I went with them to set up a protocol on how to do a rape investigation. When I was in Sudan, the women in Khartoum, the capital, said, "We wish what you had set up in Darfur existed in Khartoum.'' I want you to convey to your members that they have done tremendous work internationally. When we are looking at setting up new ways of working in the Middle East, I urge that part of that force be the RCMP to work specifically on rape investigations. Everywhere I have gone, people have said that what our RCMP officers teach and do is most important. They do it by setting an example, so I urge you to send some RCMP officers to do this work.
One of the other things that I have heard from your members that I would like you to consider, especially when people travel internationally and suffer so badly from mental health issues, is to have help on the ground. Yes, when they come here, they may have help; but certainly, if they can get immediate help while on the ground, I would recommend that to you. It takes a while for people to even address it after they come home. These are not things you find out the day you land. It's a process. There could be something on the ground to help people. I'm sure you have many things, but I would like you to do some more aggressive work to ensure that people get help as soon as they have seen an incident or been part of an incident so that they get ongoing help even before they arrive home.
Mr. Goodale: Good advice, senator, thank you.
The Chair: We have been saving Senator Wallin from Saskatchewan as a clean-up hitter.
Senator Wallin: I appreciate the opportunity to ask a question; and I know where he lives, so I can find him.
We have been hearing testimony at this committee for many years. I'll just read some of the words of one of the most recent witnesses, the Veterans Ombudsman, who said that the system is complex and "byzantine in nature.'' We hear repeatedly that what happens is every time there is a change of government approach, CDS, whatever it is, we get new layers of ideas and we just layer them on top instead of removing some of the older ones.
I have a couple of comments and questions on the process of deciding who is suffering from PTSD or OSI. The adjudication process depends on who the adjudicator is. When you get in, some people have shorter track records while other people have longer track records. Some may need a bit more leeway or maybe we need a different system. Maybe there should be one person. Some have suggested the surgeon general should decide and sign off. There is one person and set of standards.
The second question is related to that: Once there is a determination, we apparently have not figured out, in any of these departments, what we believe is an acceptable level of income. It doesn't matter if it's the CF or RCMP, every case is different. We can figure it out when we know the poverty level or what a pension scheme should be or what a welfare cheque might be, but we can't seem to figure it out in this system. Regardless of what the injury is — a lost leg or PTSD — there's got to be something that we believe these service providers, these people who put their lives on the line, are owed as a basic income from which they may add or may be able to do it later. That is pretty fundamental. Is that in your thinking in this approach?
Mr. Goodale: It has to be part of the consideration. Both of those points, Senator Wallin, are very well taken.
As clear as one can make it in the field of psychological care, there has to be a clear threshold that needs to be consistent in the way that it is applied. We need to simplify the process because the Byzantine comment has been made repeatedly, and that's obviously not serving these people in the way they deserve. There needs to be consistency, simplicity, timeliness in access, and then a clear definition of what the levels of service and treatment and compensation would be. That will be part of what we look at.
Senator Wallin: The question is, would you consider — and I'm not even sure how to formulate it — some kind of structure that does survive government changes or CDS changes so that below that level this service continues?
Mr. Goodale: Yes. This shouldn't depend on the longevity of governments or election cycles. The first responders who perform such valuable services do that day in, day out regardless of any political cycle. They should be entitled to a firm underpinning with the ongoing administration of sensible programs and services that are available all the time.
The Chair: Minister, we had asked you to be here for one hour; I think we squeezed in a little more than an hour.
Mr. Goodale: I was a little late, Mr. Chair.
The Chair: We understand that the other witnesses can stay on for a short while to answer any other questions from honourable senators.
I would like to thank you, Mr. Minister, for being here and wish you well in trying to meet all of the obligations of your department and that mandate letter that we're all watching with a great deal of interest and support.
Mr. Goodale: Mr. Chairman, thank you for the opportunity. I look forward to further conversations with your committee. This is a very important topic. I will be anxious to hear your advice.
The Chair: The minister made the point, and perhaps you could comment on this, that we're trying to avoid duplication. Veterans Affairs is doing a lot of work on this, as well as National Defence, obviously, and internationally. Various groups are now doing a lot of different research, including the institute at the Royal Military College at Queen's. We just heard the University of Regina as well. It is extremely important that this be coordinated.
On the other side there's a whole lot you can learn if you are a little bit late to the table, like maybe the RCMP might have been or other service providers like Border Services. We were in Afghanistan, and some veterans who served in the Armed Forces had missions that resulted in post-traumatic stress. This is a major new item that Veterans Affairs is starting to deal with. A lot of good programs have been developed.
From the RCMP's point of view, could you tell me what programs you are implementing that you have been able to coordinate? The last time you were here, you told us that a coordination meeting takes place periodically between Veterans Affairs, National Defence and the RCMP.
You also talked about the return to mental readiness program. Could you talk to us about some of those programs and how they're developing?
Mr. Dubeau: Thank you for the question.
The meeting itself is the services meeting together: Veterans Affairs providing services, the RCMP, DND and CF, and us. We talk about what is being planned, what the military may be considering as benefits or changes to our programs, and we incorporate that.
As a result of those meetings, the road to mental health readiness — you are correct, senator, that we have a lot to learn from our military colleagues because they have been working on this very hard. We were able to take their program and pilot it in New Brunswick, where we made modifications, because it is first responders. We made slight modifications, not major ones, working very closely with DND, and with Alice. Alice and Queen's have been involved, and with their OSI clinics. We deployed that to our membership. We are deploying that across the country with the intent to raise awareness and build resiliency to get people engaged so they understand what is going on.
We're deploying on two levels: all employees, which is one level, four hours; and all supervisors, which is six hours. As an employee, you get four hours, but as a manager you need to know more because you have to watch your own employees.
That is a program we deployed as a result of working with our colleagues in the military who have been supportive of us and have shared material. I know Sylvie has had several chats with them. Queen's University — CIMVHR, I believe it's called — has been very involved. They're involved with the University of Regina. I was at the round table and they were actually sitting there. They were there to ensure we're not duplicating and to ensure there is a coordinated approach.
There are a lot of lessons learned, and it is helping us a lot. Kudos to my military colleagues because they have done a lot of great work, and where we can adapt that to our environment we do. Some of it we can adapt, some we cannot, just because they are different operating contexts.
The road to mental health readiness is a four-hour awareness session for all employees, six hours for the leadership. It provides an awareness of what mental health is, what you have to look for, how an individual can be injured and how they can go back and forth. The intent is to raise your own awareness that as you go through things, you might be injured or injured temporarily, and that's normal. That is going to happen. You shouldn't feel less of a person for doing that and for seeking help.
There are different zones. I have a pamphlet here that explains it. If you do go into a red zone, how are you, as a manager, able to engage and get that person help, to do an intervention either through our health services or Veterans Affairs, but really through our own health services? That's what we have focused on.
We have about 90 facilitators trained nationally. They were trained using the Canadian Mental Health Association as well as DND master trainers.
We are working closely. They trained our people to deliver this training, because we think it is very valuable training. We did run it as a pilot in New Brunswick. We had, I believe, the University of Moncton involved, at the OSI clinic. They were able to actually track the results. It does shows it is effective. It does work, and it was able to help to build resiliency across our members.
The Chair: You told us before about this client reported outcome management information system, an electronic tracking system developed by Veterans Affairs that helps clinicians to better track and monitor. Is that just on paper, or are you actually doing that now?
Ms. Châteauvert: Based on the proposal that the University of Regina put forward for a longitudinal study, it was a mechanism where they could track, through biometrics, the behaviours of those involved in the study. From that perspective, it certainly sounds very interesting. Moving forward as part of a consortium approach and a concerted approach to looking into this research for the RCMP, that is certainly something that we want to consider.
Ms. Wilson: Mr. Chair, you mentioned the potential for overlap and duplication. The road to readiness is a good example where there was more of a partnership built in order to reduce overlap and duplication. Senator Wallin talked about streamlined governance for decision making and all of the various layers.
One major element of developing and coordinating a national action plan is the requirement to identify and assess all of the existing resources that exist, not only federally but provincially and territorially as well, so that we are learning from each other and not duplicating and not having an overlap.
Lori, you wanted to mention something about this issue?
Ms. MacDonald: Yes. On the point about duplication, the minister's mandate letter asked us to work with the Minister of Health, but we're also working with DND and Veterans Affairs so that we can have a large collaborative approach and avoid issues in terms of duplication and actually learn from each other as we go along.
The Chair: That is the reassurance we were looking for. I hope that that will continue.
That is a nice segue to Senator Wallin. You have the floor.
Senator Wallin: I have a comment on that issue. A couple of people have highlighted this concern as well. When we start to talk about streamlining, we sometimes talk about merging, and that's not necessarily a good thing, putting the culture of one organization into the culture of another where they then spend time trying to deal with that rather than the issues at hand. We actually need a process. It doesn't matter how many lines it goes through as long as the line is straight.
The Chair: We will continue to monitor what is happening. We are all very concerned about our veterans, both within the RCMP and — I shouldn't just say "and National Defence'' because we're also concerned about other first responders.
Ms. Wilson: Correctional workers, border guards.
The Chair: Yes. Border security is now armed and there have been gun fights. That's the kind of thing that contributes to developing post-traumatic stress, and it doesn't always manifest itself immediately following the incident. As well, there is the impact on families. We're trying to monitor all of this.
We know that there's a tremendous amount of activity happening at the present time. So, at any time, if you have some experiences or have a new program, we would be very pleased to hear from you. Rather than having to set up a formal meeting to learn about it, we'd be pleased to hear from you.
Ms. Wilson: We will make a point to share as much information as we can, and we would be happy to be back as well.
The Chair: That's wonderful. Thank you very much for being here.
Mr. Goodale was very forthright. He's got a tremendous amount of work and responsibility. That mandate letter is quite incredible, but it does provide us with a bit of a road map.
(The committee adjourned.)