THE STANDING SENATE COMMITTEE ON NATIONAL FINANCE
EVIDENCE
OTTAWA, May 1, 2024
The Standing Senate Committee on National Finance met this day at 6:46 p.m. [ET] with videoconference to consider the Main Estimates for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2025, with the exception of Library of Parliament Vote 1.
Senator Claude Carignan (Chair) in the chair.
[Translation]
The Chair: Good evening, everyone. Thank you for being here. Before we begin, I would like to remind all senators and other meeting participants of the following important preventative measures.
It’s something that must be read at the beginning of each meeting. Over time, you will likely come to know it off by heart and you may even be able to recite it.
To prevent disruptive — and potentially harmful — audio feedback incidents during our meeting that could cause injuries, we remind all in-person participants to keep their earpieces away from all microphones at all times.
As indicated in the communiqué from the Speaker to all senators on Monday, April 29, the following measures have been taken to help prevent audio feedback incidents:
All your earpieces have been replaced by a model which greatly reduces the probability of audio feedback. The new earpieces are black in colour, whereas the former earpieces were grey. Please only use a black approved earpiece.
By default, all unused earpieces will be unplugged at the start of a meeting.
When you are not using your earpiece, please place it face down, on the middle of the round sticker that you see in front of you on the table, where indicated.
Please consult the card on the table for guidelines to prevent audio feedback incidents.
Please ensure that you are seated in a manner that increases the distance between microphones. Participants must only plug in their earpieces to the microphone console located directly in front of them.
These measures are in place so that we can conduct our business without interruption and to protect the health and safety of all participants, including the interpreters.
Thank you all for your cooperation.
I wish to welcome all of the senators and witnesses as well as the viewers across the country who are watching us on sencanada.ca.
My name is Claude Carignan, senator from Quebec, and chair of the Standing Senate Committee on National Finance. Now, I would like to ask my colleagues to introduce themselves starting from my left, please.
Senator Gignac: Clément Gignac from Quebec.
Senator Loffreda: Tony Loffreda from Quebec.
[English]
Senator Pate: Welcome. My name is Kim Pate. I live here in the unceded, unsurrendered territory of the Algonquin Anishinaabe.
Senator LaBoucane-Benson: Patty LaBoucane-Benson, Treaty 6 territory, Alberta.
[Translation]
Senator Oudar: Manuelle Oudar from Quebec.
Senator Galvez: Rosa Galvez from Quebec.
Senator Moncion: Lucie Moncion from Ontario.
[English]
Senator Kingston: Good evening. Joan Kingston, New Brunswick.
Senator MacAdam: Jane MacAdam, Prince Edward Island.
Senator Ross: Krista Ross, New Brunswick.
Senator Marshall: Elizabeth Marshall, Newfoundland and Labrador.
Senator Smith: Larry Smith, Quebec.
[Translation]
The Chair: Thank you. Honourable senators, today we will resume our study on the Main Estimates for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2025, which was referred to this committee on March 19, 2024, by the Senate of Canada.
We are pleased to welcome with us today a few senior officials from Health Canada, Crown–Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs Canada, Indigenous Services Canada and Employment and Social Development Canada.
I understand that one official from each department will make statements and the others will help answer questions. So it is my pleasure to introduce Serena Francis, Chief Financial Officer, Health Canada; Darlene Bess, Chief Finances, Results and Delivery Officer, Crown–Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs Canada; Philippe Thompson, Chief Finances, Results and Delivery Officer, Indigenous Services Canada; and Brian Leonard, Director General and Deputy Chief Financial Officer, Employment and Social Development Canada.
Welcome and thank you for accepting our invitation to appear in front of the Standing Senate Committee on National Finance. On that note, I give the floor to Brian Leonard followed by Serena Francis, Jake Kennedy and then Philippe Thompson.
You have 5 to 7 minutes each to deliver your opening remarks. After that, we will begin the question period.
Brian Leonard, Director General and Deputy Chief Financial Officer, Employment and Social Development Canada: Honourable senators, first, I’d like to acknowledge that the land on which we gather is the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinaabeg people.
I am pleased to appear before you in my capacity as Deputy Chief Financial Officer for Employment and Social Development Canada, or ESDC. I’m also accompanied by a number of my departmental colleagues. They will help me provide additional details and perspective on the items that are included in the department’s Main Estimates. ESDC is the department of the Government of Canada responsible for developing, managing and delivering social programs and services. ESDC delivers a range of programs and services that affect Canadians throughout their lives. For example, the department provides seniors with basic income security, delivers programs that support labour market participation, helps students finance their postsecondary education and assists parents who are raising young children.
Through the Labour Program, ESDC also has the mandate to maintain a strong, productive, healthy and competitive workplace within federal jurisdiction.
Service Canada is the place Canadians go to access programs, services and benefits they need from the Government of Canada.
[English]
I will present to the committee an overview of ESDC’s portion of the 2024-25 Main Estimates, originally tabled on February 29.
The 2024-25 Main Estimates for Employment and Social Development Canada, or ESDC, amount to $98.7 billion, an increase of $4.5 billion when compared to last year’s 2023-24 Main Estimates. Statutory items total $87.2 billion, which is 88% of ESDC’s Main Estimates. They include programs such as Old Age Security, or OAS, the Canada Student Financial Assistance Program, the Canada Education Savings Grant and the Registered Disability Savings Plan.
Planned statutory spending is $4.3 billion higher than last year’s Main Estimates. This is mostly explained by an increase in Old Age Security, the Guaranteed Income Supplement, or GIS, and allowance payments. The increases directly related to the expected increases in the number of Old Age Security pensioners and the indexation of benefits.
As well, there is a statutory increase of $0.2 billion for service delivery to the public on behalf of other government departments under the Department of Employment and Social Development Act that is mainly due to a new two-year agreement with Health Canada for ESDC to support the delivery of the Canadian dental care plan.
ESDC’s total vote 5 grants and contributions presented in the Main Estimates is $10.2 billion, which is an increase of nearly $300 million from the 2023-24 Main Estimates. This is mainly attributable to an increase in payments to the provinces and territories in support of early learning and child care.
ESDC’s total vote 1 operating budget is $1.3 billion in 2024-25, an increase of $23 million from last year’s Main Estimates. This increase is mostly due to compensation adjustments for new collective agreements.
You will note that Employment Insurance benefits, Canada Pension Plan, or CPP, benefits and related ESDC operating costs are excluded from the department’s Main Estimates as they are specified purpose accounts. The EI operating account is included in the consolidated data of the Government of Canada. The CPP is not incorporated into the government’s financial estimates since it is under joint control of the federal government and the participating provinces and territories. While not in the Main Estimates, EI and CPP planned spending are reflected in ESDC’s departmental plan, which was tabled and published on February 29.
[Translation]
Additionally, the 2024-25 Main Estimates do not include funding for any of the initiatives announced in the recent federal budget. The department has begun the process to access those funds by seeking the necessary authorities from the Treasury Board and then through a future Estimates.
I hope this overview has given you a better understanding of the Main Estimates for our department. My colleagues and I would be pleased to answer your questions.
[English]
Serena Francis, Chief Financial Officer, Health Canada: Good evening, chair and members of the committee. Today, I have with me several colleagues in the event that you have questions that require more detailed programmatic responses.
[Translation]
Thank you for inviting me to discuss Health Canada’s Main Estimates. I am pleased to have the opportunity to highlight some of the department’s priorities and to share with you the work it is doing to support the health of Canadians.
[English]
In these Main Estimates, there is $8.7 billion in proposed spending, which consists of about $2.9 billion in operating funds, $26.5 million in capital funding and $5.4 billion in grants contributions, with an additional $280 million in statutory funding. Overall, this represents an increase of approximately $4.6 billion over the Main Estimates for 2023-24.
[Translation]
In addition to the information contained in the Main Estimates, significant investments have been announced in the 2024 budget. It is important to note that these investments are not reflected in the figures discussed today, but will be determined in future Supplementary Estimates and Main Estimates.
[English]
I will begin by providing a summary of the $8.7 billion in proposed spending, followed by an overview of the Budget 2024 items.
Through these estimates, Health Canada will continue to provide national leadership to support the health care system. The department will remain focused on helping Canadians lead healthier lives by working to protect them from unsafe health, consumer and commercial products and substances, and continue to take actions to modernize regulations for food and health products.
Some significant areas of investment are as follows: The 2022-23 federal budget invested close to $200 billion over 10 years to support the Working Together to Improve Health Care for Canadians Plan. Through this plan, we are working with provinces and territories on four shared health priorities: expanding access to family health services, including in rural and remote areas; supporting health workers and reducing backlogs for health services, such as surgeries and diagnostics; improving access to quality mental health, substance use and addiction services; and modernizing the health care system with standardized information and digital tools so health care providers and patients have access to electronic health information.
[Translation]
We are also working with the provinces and territories to improve access to mental health and addiction services, and to help Canadians age with dignity, closer to home, by supporting efforts to improve access to home and community care and long-term care. This fiscal year, Health Canada will spend approximately $4.3 billion on these commitments.
[English]
Health Canada will continue to expand access to oral health care through the Canadian dental care plan. This transformative $13-billion investment over five years and $4.4 billion ongoing aims to benefit an estimated nine million Canadians without private dental coverage. In 2024-25, over $2 billion is allocated to Health Canada to implement the new plan.
The opioid overdose crisis continues to be a top priority of the government with Health Canada leading implementation of the renewed Canadian Drugs and Substances Strategy, with $358 million over five years and $58.3 million for Health Canada’s 2024-25 Main Estimates. The strategy covers a broad range of legal and illegal substances and offers prevention, education, substance use services and supports, evidence, and substance controls. Specifically, Health Canada aims to enhance data availability, provide additional support for innovative models and promote regulatory compliance.
[Translation]
Budget 2024 was tabled in Parliament on April 16, announcing additional investments in key priority areas for Health Canada. As mentioned, these are not included in the Main Estimates but have been or will be identified as part of Supplementary Estimates and Main Estimates exercises in future years.
[English]
Over five years, $1.5 billion will go toward building a comprehensive national pharmacare program. The federal government has introduced legislation to help make essential medications more accessible and affordable for Canadians. Bill C-64, An act respecting pharmacare, proposes foundational principles for the first phase of national universal pharmacare in Canada, describing the intent to work with provinces and territories in providing a universal, single-payer coverage for a number of contraception and diabetes medications.
[Translation]
In addition, Budget 2024 renewed $190 billion over two years starting in 2024 for Health Canada and Environment and Climate Change Canada to reduce human and environmental exposure to harmful chemicals under its Chemicals Management Plan.
[English]
Building on historic health care investments, including mental health and substance use, Budget 2024 proposed over $150 million over three years to Health Canada for an emergency treatment fund, open to municipalities and Indigenous communities to help provide rapid responses to emergent critical needs related to the opioid crisis; as well as $500 million over five years, for the creation of a new youth mental health fund, which will help younger Canadians access the mental health care they need.
This proposed spending will ensure the government can continue to focus on important health priorities that are designed to result in better health outcomes for all Canadians. Thank you once again for inviting us before the committee today. We are pleased to answer any questions that you may have.
[Translation]
The Chair: Thank you, Ms. Francis. I will now give the floor to Darlene Bess.
[English]
Darlene Bess, Chief Finances, Results and Delivery Officer, Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs Canada: Thank you, honourable senators, for the invitation to discuss the 2024-25 Main Estimates for Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs Canada. Before we begin, I would like to recognize that we come together here today on the unceded traditional territory of the Algonquin Anishinaabe people.
As you know, the funding in the Main Estimates allows Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs Canada to continue along the path toward reconciliation by renewing the relationship with Indigenous peoples, furthering the modernization of institutional structures and governance in support of self-determination, acknowledging and addressing past wrongs, as well as advancing work to protect the environment and enabling prosperity, sustainability and health in the North.
The 2024-25 Main Estimates will provide the department with a total of $10.9 billion in investments, a net increase of $1.8 billion compared to last year’s Main Estimates of $9.1 billion. This increase is primarily attributable to a higher level of funding received for the settlement of claims in litigation.
[Translation]
The department’s 2024-25 Main Estimates are composed primarily of transfer payments and operating expenditures. Transfer payments account for 81% of the Main Estimates, or $8.9 billion, while operating expenditures account for 18%, or $2 billion.
[English]
I’d like to take a moment to highlight some of the work these estimates will allow Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs Canada to further in 2024-25 toward accelerating the renewal of the relationship with Indigenous peoples based on respect, cooperation, partnership, and the affirmation and implementation of Indigenous rights. Specifically, a total of $7 billion in funding will allow the department to accelerate specific claims resolution, as well as the resolution of litigation and negotiation of settlement agreements. Namely, through this work, the department expects to resolve at least 35 specific claims by the end of the fiscal year. Additionally, funding representing investments of approximately $2.2 billion will support the management and implementation of agreements and treaties, as well as enable an increase in the number of treaties, self-government agreements and other constructive arrangements concluded, targeting a total of 93 additional arrangements by March 2025.
[Translation]
A portion of these Main Estimates, totalling $292 million, will support partner engagement and capacity building to advance reconciliation as well as Indigenous visions of self-determination, namely by collaborating with our partners to advance joint priorities and co-develop policies.
More specifically, over $137.3 million of these funds will go towards supporting Indigenous early learning and child care, $43.5 million will support rights and relationship building with the Métis nation, and $20 million will go to advancing missing and murdered Indigenous women and girls initiatives.
[English]
Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs Canada will also continue to advance work toward the pursuit of a strong, inclusive, vibrant, prosperous and self-sufficient North through investments of over $1 billion. For example, part of these funds will enable the establishment of regional governance mechanisms and implementation plans for Canada’s Arctic and Northern Policy Framework with territorial, Indigenous and provincial partners.
Of the $1 billion in funding, $133 million will support the department to help make nutritious food and essential items more affordable and accessible to residents of 125 eligible isolated Northern communities. This will materialize by building on recent expansions, including a proactive food systems approach through engagement and collaboration with Indigenous partners and academics. Support will also be provided toward clean energy and climate monitoring projects in order for Northern Indigenous communities to build resiliency to changing environmental conditions. Finally, a total of $713 million in funding will be provided to continue remediation of Northern contaminated sites to ensure that Northern lands, waters and natural resources are sustainably managed.
In addition to these Main Estimates, it is worth noting some of the new funding recently announced as part of Budget 2024 that will further the department’s ability to move forward on the path toward reconciliation. Namely, $101 million to support the renewal of Harvesters Support Grant, the Community Food Program Fund and food security research. An additional $12.5 million to support Indigenous Youth Roots organization Call to Action 66, as well as $1.3 million to co-develop with Indigenous partners, a regional red dress alert system.
[Translation]
Mr. Chair, these Main Estimates will allow the department to continue the concrete work to renew the relationships between Canada and First Nations, Inuit and Métis, as well as continue to advance the work in the North. I am pleased to have a discussion with this committee regarding the Main Estimates; your questions are also welcome. Thank you.
The Chair: Thank you very much. That was a really good presentation.
Philippe Thompson, Chief Finances, Results and Delivery Officer, Indigenous Services Canada: Good evening, Mr. Chair and honourable senators. Thank you for the invitation to appear before you to discuss the 2024-25 Main Estimates for Indigenous Services Canada, or ISC.
I would like to begin by acknowledging that we come together on the unceded traditional territory of the Algonquin Anishinaabeg people.
I also have the pleasure to have with me several of my colleagues to answer your questions. 2023-24 was a pivotal year for our department with, amongst other accomplishments, a $23.3 billion settlement agreement — the largest in Canadian history — to compensate First Nations children and families who were harmed by discriminatory underfunding of the First Nations Child and Family Services program and those impacted by the federal government’s narrow definition of Jordan’s Principle.
Please note that our 2024-25 Main Estimates is significantly lower than last year, as a result of this one-time payment in 2023-24.
[English]
With the total amount of $21 billion in its 2024-25 Main Estimates, Indigenous Services Canada will continue to make meaningful progress on our objectives and, in particular, address some key priorities, such as contributing toward the department’s mandate to support the safety and well-being of Indigenous children, youth and families through the long-term reform of the First Nations Child and Family Services program. For example, by advancing the implementation of immediate and ongoing measures pursuant to the 2016 Canadian Human Rights Tribunal Merit Decision and Agreement-in-Principle on Long-Term Reform of the First Nations Child and Family Services Program and Jordan’s Principle. Undertaking policy development program research and improved program delivery, as well as exploring more effective and innovative ways to administer programs while making progress toward the transfer of service delivery.
We continue to ensure Indigenous children get the care and support they need to thrive and address gaps in services by the continued implementation of Jordan’s Principle for First Nation children. We also continue to address systemic racism within the health system and contribute to advancing pathways for Indigenous people to have greater control over the health services in their communities through activities such as the implementation of the Indigenous Health Equity Fund. We are prioritizing efforts to improve access to high-quality health services and reduce socio-economic gaps in the area of health by, for example, working with Inuit partners to eliminate tuberculosis across Inuit Nunangat by 2030. We are improving client access to the Supplementary Health Benefits Authority by continuing to engage with our Indigenous partners. We are supporting community infrastructure so that First Nations can build healthy, safe and prosperous communities. We continue to work to decrease socio-economic gaps in education for the continued support for First Nations’ control of First Nation elementary and secondary education, the transfer of responsibilities and ongoing support for First Nations, Inuit and Métis Nation post-secondary education.
[Translation]
Mr. Chair, please rest assured that our primary goal, with the collaboration of our Indigenous partners, is to advance Indigenous priorities, and we sincerely hope that our combined efforts will help change how all Canadians see Indigenous peoples and how we can all move forward in the spirit of reconciliation.
I look forward to discussing any aspects of these estimates with you and welcome your questions regarding my presentation.
Thank you.
The Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. Thompson. As is tradition, we’ll begin question period with Senator Marshall.
[English]
Senator Marshall: I will start with Ms. Bess, but welcome to all the witnesses.
Ms. Bess, under grants and contributions, there are some large numbers there. Would you have information as to what is in the $5.9 billion? It’s the first line item under the grants. I’m asking because sometimes the numbers are in the estimates in one particular year, but they might show up in the Public Accounts in another year. I’m trying to cross-reference. Are there any large items in the $5.9 billion? Can you let me know what is in there?
Ms. Bess: Thank you for the question.
Yes, you’re right: There is a very large amount in there for our agricultural benefits — about $3.8 billion. That’s the biggest part of that. These agricultural benefits were as a result of past treaty settlements where we had promised to provide agricultural tools to these treaties. The funding here is to settle those claims for those treaties that will be filing agricultural claims against the Government of Canada.
Senator Marshall: Are there any others in that group that would be over $500 million? I’m just looking for the large amount. I know there would be hundreds of claims there for smaller amounts, but it’s the larger ones I am interested in.
Ms. Bess: Thank you for the question.
There is another $554 million for funding for compensation related to losses incurred through diminishing purchasing power of annuity payments with treaty First Nations.
Senator Marshall: Yes, that sounds familiar. I think we had some discussion of that last year.
How much is that?
Ms. Bess: That one is $554 million.
Senator Marshall: Okay. So it’s just those two?
Ms. Bess: Yes.
Senator Marshall: What about in the $1.5 billion?
Ms. Bess: In the $1.5 billion, we have some large amounts. I don’t have those details here right now. I have some small —
Senator Marshall: It’s fine as long as —
Ms. Bess: They are not large amounts over $500 million, but I have small amounts in here for funding for self-governing and modern treaty First Nations for housing at $32.8 million.
Senator Marshall: I didn’t want to get too far down into the weeds, but that’s good.
This question is jointly to you and Mr. Thompson. In chapter 6 of the budget document, are you able to tell me how much is going to be in your department and how much will be in Mr. Thompson’s?
Mr. Thompson: I’m sorry. I missed a portion of the question.
Senator Marshall: I’m wondering what the split is. I was looking at chapter 6 in the budget. It’s mostly Indigenous-related expenditures. I’m wondering how much is for your department and how much is for Ms. Bess’s department.
Mr. Thompson: Do you know the split?
Senator Marshall: I’m just trying to track the expenditures. I’ll just move on to the —
Ms. Bess: Senator Marshall, there —
Senator Marshall: — I think we only have five minutes, and I’m well on my way here.
Mr. Leonard, can you give us an update of the Benefits Delivery Modernization programme? I think the last several times you have appeared, I have asked for an update. Could you just confirm that the budget is still $2.5 billion and that the completion date is still 2030?
Mr. Leonard: Yes, we were here two weeks ago on April 16. There is one update. The program authorities remain $2.2 billion in terms of the program authorities we received from the Treasury Board. That’s what we can spend. The onboarding target is still December 2024. What has changed is that the budget announced $2.9 billion over five years for the Benefits Delivery Modernization.
Senator Marshall: [Technical difficulties] to the $3.4 billion?
Mr. Leonard: That is in addition to the $2.2 billion we have in program authority approved by Treasury Board to this point. We received a decision two weeks ago in the federal budget, and now we are working internally with the Treasury Board to determine what this means and what the new amounts will be as we develop the Treasure Board submission. Eventually, we will be returning through a supplementary estimates to provide more details on what that new number might be.
Senator Marshall: So do you have a new revised figure, then, for the budget for that program?
Mr. Leonard: We will, but we do not at this point. Budget announced $2.9 billion in new funding over five years. We don’t know exactly what the amounts will be. We are working with the Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat to determine.
Senator Marshall: Budget 2024 also announced $364 million. Are you familiar with that number? There is another $364 million on page 353. I was wondering what that was for.
Mr. Leonard: Was that 363?
Senator Marshall: It says “improving benefit delivery.”
Mr. Leonard: Which page was that, senator?
Senator Marshall: It is page 353 of the budget. I just asked my questions, so you can mail in the answers. I have a lot of questions, and I’ve only got five minutes.
Oh, is that my last question? Put me on for the second round, please.
[Translation]
Senator Moncion: My question is for Ms. Francis. You mentioned $358 million over five years for the opioid crisis. How are the funds being shared?
Jennifer Saxe, Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Cannabis and Controlled Substances Branch, Health Canada: Thank you for the question. The funds are shared among several departments, including the Public Health Agency of Canada, Health Canada and Public Safety Canada. This is due to the renewal of Canada’s Drug and Substance Strategy. It covers prevention and education, evidence, substance use services and support, reduction, treatment and recovery, as well as substance control to combat organized and other crime.
Senator Moncion: You’re talking about substance use. Are these programs associated with the distribution of naloxone or programs associated with the distribution of methadone?
Ms. Saxe: It can be for several substances. There is the Substance Use and Addictions Program, or SUAP, which obtains funding for community organizations, provinces and municipalities. Some programs include naloxone distribution, while others are reserved for treatment or reinforcement and delivery. This can be for methadone, among others.
More broadly, for services such as treatment, there is also the transfer to the provinces and territories, as they are primarily responsible for the delivery of health services. The funds we receive through the transfer in the amount of $2.2 billion are also for services like treatment.
Senator Moncion: Ms. Francis also talked about access to improved data. I’d like to know what kind of success you’re having on that front and what you’re doing with the various data you’re collecting.
Ms. Saxe: We have a number of projects when it comes to data; in particular, we collect data for alcohol and drug surveys, including student surveys.
We also have Health Canada’s Drug Analysis Service program. It’s really when the police have samples. We check the samples to determine what the substances are. This gives us an indication of the substances being used and consumed across Canada. It’s for drug analysis purposes. We have other programs that collect data on substance use sites. We study how many people they serve and we have a table for that. We vary the different data collections we do, and we share the data with other departments. The department is transparent and posts this data online so that provinces and municipalities have better access to the information. The Public Health Agency of Canada has an entire website devoted to data collection on deaths, harms, hospitalizations and more.
Senator Moncion: Thank you very much. Ms. Bess, you talked about investments in the environment. When it comes to Indigenous peoples, you talked about clean energy and climate. I’d like to know what initiatives have been put in place to develop lithium and cobalt extraction. We know that mining them causes extreme pollution and that the vast majority of these mines are located on Indigenous lands in Ontario. I’d like to hear what you have to say about this aspect of the investments you’re making in upstream prevention, rather than waiting for sites to become contaminated.
Ms. Bess: Thank you for the question. I’m going to ask my colleague Georgina Lloyd to respond.
Georgina Lloyd, Assistant Deputy Minister, Northern Affairs, Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs Canada: Thank you for the question. If I understood correctly, the question was about clean energy programs. It’s a program intended only for the North; all the investments are in the North and are concentrated with northern partners, such as Indigenous or territorial partners, to conduct a feasibility study to develop a better clean energy strategy. Plans are set aside for feasibility to determine whether it makes sense to continue building or developing major projects.
Senator Gignac: My questions will be for Health Canada. We’re going to talk about dental care plans. Perhaps one of your colleagues could join you if necessary. The Government of Quebec has indicated from the outset that they aren’t really interested in joining the Canadian dental care plan, or CDCP. It already has its own plan, which doesn’t cover exactly the same people. Quebec is asking for a waiver with full compensation. Do you have any update on the negotiations between the federal government and Quebec, given that the Canadian dental care plan came into effect today, if I’m not mistaken?
Lynne René de Cotret, Assistant Deputy Minister, Oral Health Branch, Health Canada: Thank you for the question. Yes, the plan went into effect today across the country, including Quebec, and I have no news about the discussions with them.
Senator Gignac: Do you know the participation rate of dental surgeons across the provinces? If so, what is the participation rate in Quebec? Apparently, there wasn’t much enthusiasm among dental surgeons to sign up for the federal plan.
Ms. René de Cotret: There are now 7,000 oral health professionals registered to provide services within the plan. That number is growing daily. Every day there are more and more participants. It’s also expected that this number will continue to increase as the plan goes live. Starting July 8, we’ll also be launching another option for oral health professionals. Those who don’t wish to participate fully in the plan will be able to do so per claim, so on a patient basis. This is to give them the option of participating fully in the plan by registering or doing it on a case-by-case basis.
Senator Gignac: You mentioned the figure 7,000.
Ms. René de Cotret: Yes.
Senator Gignac: Is that a figure for Canada? What is the percentage of all dentists in Canada? Are we talking 50%, 80% or 20%? When you talk about 7,000, are you referring to Canada?
Ms. René de Cotret: Yes, across Canada.
Senator Gignac: What’s the figure for Quebec? Today, the president of the Association des chirurgiens dentistes du Québec, Carl Tremblay, mentioned that, by his estimate, the registration rate for dental surgeons doesn’t exceed 15%. There’s no agreement between Quebec and Ottawa, and at the same time, it’s not available for people to take advantage of this new federal plan. So Quebecers are being penalized. What do you intend to do? Is the 15% rate much lower than that of the other provinces? Can you send the committee a table showing the number of dentists registered in each province?
Ms. René de Cotret: I don’t have those numbers with me tonight. There are just over 25,000 oral health professionals, dentists, denturists, independent hygienists and surgeons. There are a number of professionals among them. I’ll take note of the question and get back to the committee. As I mentioned, for the time being, we are tracking this figure, but with the other option whereby participation can be done by claim. These numbers will go down, because we won’t know all the data. A professional may choose to provide services to plan members on a case-by-case basis.
Senator Gignac: It’s a major plan, $2 billion for the next fiscal year and $13 billion over five years, and it comes into effect today. There is also a bit of controversy about the fact that the plan is said to cover 100% of eligible expenses, but the rates vary greatly from province to province. In Ontario, it’s more expensive than in Quebec for many things. Will you have adjustment rates province by province, or is it a national rate? What happens to people who might be surprised not to be reimbursed at 100%?
Ms. René de Cotret: No, it’s not a national fee schedule.
It varies by province and territory, and also by profession. We don’t reimburse 100% of the suggested fees by province and territory. All associations determine their own fee schedules. Some charge according to that schedule; others charge more. That’s one component.
The government has made it clear that there’s a 40% co‑payment for certain annual incomes between $70,000 and $80,000, and 60% for those with a net family income between $80,000 and $90,000. It was also made clear that it’s possible for an oral health professional to bill the patient for the difference. The practice is discouraged, but we know that it’s a practice that some professionals will adopt across the country to charge the patient the difference.
Senator Gignac: Thank you.
The Chair: I have a follow-up question, just to be clear: Is it possible to get the schedule? If you’re paying for it and it’s in effect, I imagine you have the schedule of fees charged by professional, by province and by association. If you could send it to us, that would be very helpful.
Ms. René de Cotret: Certainly. It’s on the sites.
Senator Gignac: I’d like to know the participation rate by province as of May 1, since the plan is coming into effect today and many people have been waiting for the plan to go into effect.
[English]
Senator Smith: Mr. Thompson, one of your responsibilities with Indigenous Services Canada includes funding connectivity projects that increase internet speeds and maintain critical infrastructure in Indigenous communities. We spoke to Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada, or ISED, yesterday about the various projects being funded through the Universal Broadband Fund, including $50 million to improve Indigenous connectivity.
Could you provide us with some updates on the broadband and/or other communication projects that ISC is currently funding and how you measure whether or not these projects are meeting the needs of Indigenous communities?
Mr. Thompson: Thank you for the question. Before I turn to my colleague from regional operations, I want to apologize to the chair for not properly hearing the initial question. I will be happy to provide an answer later if I am permitted. But for the current question, I will turn to my colleague from regional operations.
Paula Hadden-Jokiel, Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Regional Operations Sector, Indigenous Services Canada: Good evening, senators, thank you for the question. I’m pleased to be joining you today from the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinaabe peoples. My name is Paula Hadden-Jokiel, Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Regional Operations Sector, Indigenous Services Canada.
Within the infrastructure program, connectivity projects are one of the eligible areas of funding under the area we call “Other Community Infrastructure.” Since 2015, over $93 million has been invested in 51 projects. I know, senator, you have been closely monitoring how we are tracking compared to the rest of Canada. My latest data is that 50% of First Nations have access to high-speed data, versus 99% of Canadians in urban areas and 67% of Canadians in rural households.
Senator Smith: Of the 50% and the 99%, could you give us some feedback on completed projects? Where have these projects been completed, so that we can understand geographically what areas are benefiting and which areas have more challenges to have these services? How are they doing?
Ms. Hadden-Jokiel: I do not have the geographical breakdown for you today, but of the 51 projects we funded, 32 are complete. I would be happy to provide the geographical breakdown in writing following the meeting.
Senator Smith: If you could provide us with a map or something very simple that we could understand, that would be fantastic.
Challenges and risks associated with communication infrastructure in Indigenous communities, particularly in the North and remote regions — have you been able to do a review study of some of the areas in the extreme North and regions? How is the department maintaining any infrastructure that has been implemented in these ultra-northern areas?
Ms. Hadden-Jokiel: The responsibility within ISC would be for areas in the northern territories, and our colleagues in CIRNAC would be responsible for work in the territories. We would be working closely with other departments, including ISED, to identify those gap areas and working with First Nations partners.
Senator Smith: Do you have anything other than the general gap areas? Do you have anything specific that you could share with us, or could you send us something?
Ms. Hadden-Jokiel: We can follow up with you.
Senator Smith: That would be great. Your departmental plan for 2024-25 notes that full-time equivalents increased by more than 1,000 in 2023-24 compared to the previous year. This is an expectation that your full-time equivalents will decrease to about 6,500 in 2026-27. I’m trying to understand the explanation for the large fluctuations in full-time staff. Is it related to temporary programs?
Mr. Thompson: Thank you for the question. The fluctuation that we see in the number of FTEs is related to the amount of spending that we receive. We have seen an increase in planned full-time equivalents, or FTEs, in health services to support the delivery of Jordan’s Principle, the increased investments that have been made in infrastructure and education all across the organization. We have seen that increase in FTEs year over year.
What you see in the decline of FTEs is based upon the fact that the department is funded largely by A-Base funding. We are renewing our funding. That is part of the question about the budget. What we have seen announced in the budget, most of that funding, which is a little over $6 billion — of course, it is not reflected in my Main Estimates for this fiscal year, but it is an amount that is over five years. There are FTEs that will be renewed.
That is why, when you look to the future of the organization, because we have a lot of sunsetting funding and this is not reflected in future Main Estimates. But as budgets come in and as we renew our sun setters, that number could stabilize. There could always be a reduction if the government decides not to renew its funding for Indigenous services.
Senator Smith: That’s quite an answer, Mr. Thompson. I will have to try to hone it down so that I can be able to understand it next time.
Senator Ross: Thank you. My question is for Ms. Francis. I noticed in your departmental plane that there is a focus on the credential recognition for internationally trained health care professionals. I wonder how much is earmarked for that type of work in these estimates. It talks about innovative programs, and I wonder what those innovative programs might entail.
Ms. Francis: My colleague, Ms. Voisin, will come in to answer that.
Jocelyne Voisin, Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy Branch, Health Canada: Thank you for the question. In terms of foreign credential recognition and work that we have on the health workforce overall, we’re working with provinces and territories mainly on commitments. They made several commitments at the last meeting of health ministers regarding the health workforce. Included in that was, for example, a commitment to meet a 90-day service standard for licensing for internationally educated health professionals. We have been working with them to make sure that they can meet that commitment. They are looking at an ethical recruitment framework for when we do international recruitment, and are also working on issues related to labour mobility so that when professionals come into the country, they can actually work across provinces and territories.
In terms of the innovative programs, I don’t have the number in front of me, but maybe Ms. Francis can find that. We are also working with the national physician organizations, for example, the Medical Council of Canada is working on a registry for physicians, which would be the foundation to allow for labour mobility.
In the same way, we are with the national organizations for nursing. They are also working on a registry, which is really what would allow that labour mobility across the country, and also working on programs like triple-track assessment for nursing. For example, when a nurse needs to be assessed to come into the country, there are several different tests that they have to go through in terms of that assessment, their education assessment, the verification of credentials and also the licensing process. They are looking at innovative models where they can actually accelerate and streamline that process so they can get to work faster.
Senator Ross: I have another question with regard to expanding Canadians’ access to family health services. There is mention of transforming the delivery of primary care, interdisciplinary teams and virtual care. Can you tell me what is included in this bundle in the Main Estimates?
Ms. Voisin: In terms of the estimates, it is the funding for the bilateral agreements. The government announced $200 billion over 10 years to support provinces and territories to improve health care for Canadians.
As part of the estimates is the money that we’re flowing to provinces and territories for the bilateral agreements. That would be the first year of that funding. We have signed all the agreements with provinces and territories in this fiscal year. They have four priorities where they can invest that money. The real main priority is the area of family health teams. Many of them are doing innovative things in terms of moving to a model of team-based care, looking at alternative payment models and really bringing virtual care into their public systems to provide that care to Canadians.
Nova Scotia is looking at a registry where, if you do not have a family doctor already, you can actually access virtual care first and then get connected to a family care provider.
All of those bilateral agreements have action plans online where provinces actually detail what they are doing with the funding. They have targets and indicators. These agreements are three years, so they have set out indicators and targets for those three years.
We also have them share data with the Canadian Institute for Health Information in terms of common indicators so we can actually measure progress across the country in terms of access to care.
Senator Ross: Ms. Francis, you also mentioned digital tools. Can you expand upon that? Are those electronic medical records, or EMRs, or virtual platforms? What is that?
Ms. Francis: Another one of the priorities in the bilateral agreements is modernizing the health system with digital tools. There is actually a full health data agenda with the provinces and territories. The digital tools they are investing in are mostly EMRs, which are electronic medical records in a physician’s office.
We’re trying to make sure those are connected with the rest of the health care system and that patients have access to their own health information. Those are the goals of those initiatives.
As part of signing on to get their funding for the health agreements, provinces and territories had to agree to five data commitments. One was sharing common indicator data with the Canadian Institute for Health Information to help us measure progress. The second was adhering to common interoperability standards so that the information can be exchanged across the system and shared with patients. The third one was aligning frameworks. Part of the barrier to sharing that health information is not necessarily technical; it is really culture. Even those pieces of privacy legislation do not prevent that sharing of data, but there is a culture of concern about allowing that data to be shared. It is really looking at data stewardship and aligning all the partners so that there is a culture of sharing with privacy measures in place to protect Canadians but ensuring that, again, they can get access to their own data.
The third one is adhering to the principles of a health data charter. Some of those principles are a patient’s right to have their own health data, as well as respecting Indigenous sovereignty over data, OCAP. It is moving the entire country in the same direction from a culture of custodianship over data to a culture of stewardship over data.
The last commitment is public data health sharing to make sure that we can manage public health events.
Those are the big parts of a joint agenda that we are advancing with the provinces and territories.
Senator Pate: My question is for you, Mr. Leonard.
The ESDC departmental plan for 2024-25 indicates that the department will be:
. . . working with partners to implement the Canada Disability Benefit. Collaboration with persons with disabilities from various backgrounds will ensure that the new benefits designed and regulations are informed by the needs and lived experiences of the people who will receive it.
We have now heard resoundingly from persons with disabilities that the design of the benefit in Budget 2024 is far from adequate. The Parliamentary Budget Officer testified to this committee that, when his office modelled the potential costs of the Canada disability benefit last year, they came up with a range of potential funding options and received criticism that their minimum funding option was inadequate.
Budget 2024 has not even provided half the minimum amount that he accounted for.
Given the emphasis that was placed on the principle of “nothing about us without us” as the disability benefit was being legislated, how will the design of the benefit be improved in light of the response from persons with disabilities to the budget, and in particular, what concrete actions and steps will the government be taking to ensure that the benefit rolls out this year rather than in 2025; that an adequate amount, instead of only $200 per month, is made available; and that it reaches all of those with disabilities below the poverty line instead of the less than half of them who are currently eligible for the disability tax credit?
Mr. Leonard: Thank you for the question.
In Budget 2024, $6.1 billion over six years was announced, with $1.4 billion ongoing, for the Canada disability benefit. It’s not in our Main Estimates, but we are working with the Treasury Board to get access to those funds.
To answer your questions, I will call up my colleague, Elisha Ram, senior assistant deputy minister for that program.
Elisha Ram, Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Income Security and Social Development, Employment and Social Development Canada: Good evening, and thank you for the question, senator.
As my colleague indicated, the budget allocated that amount over five years, with $1.4 billion ongoing, for the benefit. Your question covered a number of aspects. I will try to respond to all of them. Please let me know if I have missed anything.
In terms of consultations, we have very much committed to the principle of “nothing without us.” The pre-consultation phase began last summer. The department undertook a number of roundtables, including those that were led by the minister, as well as some technical roundtables led by officials. They explored different facets of what the Canada disability benefit could look like, including lived experience, the particular costs that individuals with disabilities face, issues around administrative issues, what an appeal process should look like and how we can make the application process as barrier-free as possible.
We have also had a public portal through which Canadians could provide direct responses to some of those questions. That was open for two months in the fall of 2023. We received input from over 8,000 Canadians as part of that process.
All of that input, senator, fed into the decision that was announced in the budget.
Senator Pate: How many of those people whom you consulted were happy with the result?
Mr. Ram: Before I get to that question, because I do not think that I can answer it, the next step is for our department to conclude the draft regulations that will operationalize the benefit. The intention is to release those draft regulations for public comment as soon as possible, likely before the benefit itself or the act itself comes into force. That will then lead to a period of public comment that would allow people to comment, not just on the amount and other details announced in the budget but on the more detailed operationalized principles that will be included in those draft regulations.
The government will then take the input it has received through that regulatory process and use it to finalize the regulations, at which time we can proceed to build the delivery system.
All of that is expected to take a number of months. As the budget indicated, it is expected that the benefit itself will begin to be paid in July 2025. That is the timetable we are working with.
Senator Pate: I will ask a question. Perhaps you can give the answer in writing.
When you last appeared before the committee — not you, but the department and you as well — it was indicated that steps were being taken to ensure the adequacy of the benefit to meet the needs of persons with disabilities living in poverty. I’m curious about the breakdown of the $10 million that was earmarked for implementation when the Supplementary Estimates (B) were allocated. If you could provide details about the consultation process and what the feedback has been, that would be great. Also, whether there has been a rethink of the commitment that the government made to actually deliver this in 2024 rather than 2025 and what the rationale is. Thank you.
Senator Galvez: My question is for ISC. I want to talk about the issue of bringing safe drinking water to First Nations communities. I remember many years ago, when I first joined the Senate, that there was this report on Human Rights Watch that said that there were about 134 advisories in 85 First Nations reserves. At that time, the government gave $4.6 billion in order to solve the whole problem. Today, we see that we still have advisories in left, but there were 144 lifted. I have some questions about that.
First, what amount was required to lift this 144, and is this permanent? Once it is lifted, is it permanent, or can it happen again? What amount of money goes into the infrastructure, the operations, the maintenance and also the compensation? Because I am reading that there is compensation that is being given. Can you give me that breakdown?
Mr. Thompson: Thank you for the question. I will ask my colleague, Paula Hadden-Jokiel, to answer the question on water advisories.
Ms. Hadden-Jokiel: Good evening. In terms of drinking water advisories since 2015, $4.39 billion has been announced in funding for water and wastewater, including $1.5 billion in the Fall Economic Statement in 2023.
Currently, there are 28 long-term drinking water advisories remaining in 26 First Nations communities. I think you indicated 144 long-term drinking water advisories had been lifted, and 276 short-term drinking water advisories have been lifted.
Of the remaining long-term drinking water advisories, all of them have action plans in place. Some of them are working toward interim solutions as we try to accelerate long-term solutions. Of the ones that are remaining, 4% of those projects are at a feasibility study phase, 11% are at a design phase, 25% are under construction and 61% of the infrastructure pieces are complete but additional issues are being addressed, and often those are operations and maintenance issues or sometimes obtaining water operator capacity.
Senator Galvez: In these places where advisories were given, the reason for these are very different in nature.
Ms. Hadden-Jokiel: Yes.
Senator Galvez: You have E. coli, which causes infections, but you also have trihalomethanes that are cancer precursors, and you also have uranium at some of the sites. The way that you treat one is not the way that you treat the other. Can you tell me, more or less, the categories of what you are dealing with?
Ms. Hadden-Jokiel: The categories are very broad. On the environmental health side, our colleagues on the — side would be more familiar with that. But many of them relate to the infrastructure capacity and having sufficient size and operating capacity of a plant to support the size and needs of the community. That is where the investments that I have talked about are primarily directed, ensuring that we have the appropriate infrastructure in place and to ensure that we can operate and maintain it.
Senator Galvez: One of the reasons we have in this problem is because the regulations that regulate water quality for us in urban places are not the same in First Nations; there are no regulations there. Have we solved that problem?
Ms. Hadden-Jokiel: There is a draft. There is a bill before the house. We have been working on Bill C-61, An Act respecting water, source water, drinking water, wastewater and related infrastructure on First Nation lands. That would propose, as a future step, the co-development of regulations for drinking water on reserve.
Senator Galvez: Thank you.
[Translation]
Senator Dalphond: Thank you to everyone who is here late tonight on May 1. My first question is to understand how the budget is allocated between Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs Canada and Indigenous Services Canada. I’m looking at the contribution for the education of Métis children, for example. There is $137 million in the budget for Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs Canada. I can see, however, that this amount is earmarked for elementary school children, but the amounts for secondary schools are in the Indigenous Services Canada budget.
Why does the age of Métis children make it one department rather than the other? Can you explain that to me?
Mr. Thompson: Thank you very much for the excellent question, Senator Dalphond. We could spend all day answering this question, but Indigenous Services Canada generally focuses on services to Indigenous communities within the communities themselves. The way to delineate the responsibilities between the two departments is that, below 60th parallel, Indigenous Services Canada normally provides the services; for the North, it’s our colleagues from Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs Canada. It’s a partnership between the two departments. We work closely and continually together. We have a lot of joint committees to ensure that our efforts are linked on almost every file we work on. It will often be like that. Some communities will enter into treaties for which the funds will be channelled through our colleagues, whereas we’re more concerned with direct services to communities.
Senator Dalphond: For Métis children, I assume they’re in the same places; some are in elementary school and others in high school. I’m having a bit of trouble following the logic behind one department taking care of part of their education and another department taking care of the rest.
Isn’t there a lack of continuity in the programs?
Mr. Thompson: It depends. It is not just a responsibility that’s shared between our two departments, it’s a responsibility that’s shared with the provinces. So it’s not a matter of age, but of location. Indigenous Services Canada provides services for education from kindergarten to high school, but also for post-secondary education, but in the case of Métis communities, some live in urban areas and receive services from provincial education systems in certain major cities, so it’s also a partnership with the provinces.
Senator Dalphond: The next question is on contributions for the safety of Indigenous women and children, et cetera, and 2SLGBTQQIA+. Again, there are two programs, one in one department and the other in the other, which is the Support for the Well-Being of Families and Survivors of Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women, Girls and 2SLGBTQQIA+ People Contribution Program. It’s a small amount, and there’s another, larger contribution of $145 million for a program called Contributions to Improve the Safety and Security of Indigenous Women, Children, Families and 2SLGBTQQIA+ People.
[English]
How is it again — why is it that two departments —
Ms. Bess: I will ask my colleague, Mary-Luisa Kapelus, to speak about the Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls. She is the Senior Assistant Deputy Minister of Policy and Strategic Direction.
Senator Dalphond: Thank you.
[Translation]
Mary-Luisa Kapelus, Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy and Strategic Direction, Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs Canada: Could you please repeat the question?
[English]
Senator Dalphond: My question is really about the missing Indigenous women and children. There were many Calls for Justice asking for concrete actions.
I see contributions to improve the safety and security of Indigenous women, children and families, $145 million. Is that to implement the Calls for Justice?
Ms. Kapelus: Yes. All of the funds in one way or another contribute to the direct response for the Calls for Justice, absolutely.
[Translation]
It’s a shared responsibility among the various departments within the government. We have a certain responsibility for a number of programs because of the guardianship at the moment.
[English]
But there are others who are contributing as well, such as Indigenous Services Canada.
Senator Dalphond: There is a contribution for the survivors by the other department.
[Translation]
Ms. Kapelus: [Technical difficulties—Editor] individuals for support organizations.
[English]
Senator Dalphond: Do you know how much of the Calls for Justice have been implemented so far through the machine of the government? Here we have a department, another one and maybe other departments?
[Translation]
Ms. Kapelus: That’s a good question; we have an annual report, and right now there’s an analysis to determine the percentages.
[English]
It’s something our partners have been asking for. We’re in the process of doing that right now.
Senator Dalphond: Something to follow up?
[Translation]
Ms. Kapelus: We have an annual report on June 3, for our anniversary.
[English]
Ms. Kapelus: Right now, we’re trying to definitely get to that.
Senator Dalphond: Thank you.
Senator Loffreda: Thank you for being here.
My question is for Brian Leonard, Director General and Deputy Chief Financial Officer of Employment and Social Development Canada. Good evening.
My question is concerning the Canada Pension Plan. When referring to your 2024-25 departmental plan, it shows that the department has met, at most, five out of ten of its targets regarding published service standards for pensions and benefits programs since 2020. This is far short of the 10-out-of-10 mark that the department has set for itself to meet by March 2025.
Can you provide us with context in terms of why this performance indicator has been so difficult to achieve? Does the department have a plan to improve its service to Canadians? Does the department need additional funding to ensure proper functioning? Is staffing an issue? Is technology an issue? What are the issues?
Mr. Leonard: Thank you for the question, Mr. Chair.
I will call up Tammy Bélanger to answer that question. I want to reiterate there is no CPP funding within our Main Estimates. However, as you referred to, it is in our departmental plan. It is spending the department does, not through the Main Estimates.
Senator Loffreda: I thought the question was relevant given the five out of ten. It is a big concern, the Canada Pension Plan, right?
Mr. Leonard: Yes, agreed.
Over to you, Tammy.
Tammy Bélanger, Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Benefits and Integrated Services, Employment and Social Development Canada: Good evening, and hello. Thank you for the question. I am Tammy Bélanger, the Senior Assistant Deputy Minister responsible for benefits and payments at Service Canada.
Concerning the Canada Pension Plan, as you noted, we did receive funding in the 2023 Fall Economic Statement to reduce the inventories of our pensions system. It is a three-year funding strategy where we are working on the inventories, the large part is because, of course, we have aging demographics and the complexity of the benefits in and of itself for the aging population.
The department does have a very robust inventory reduction strategy and has been working toward reducing those inventories.
We do publish our standards. For the Canada Pension Plan, as you know, we have different benefits under that regime. We do track them. We are making progress, as well as our call centres.
In fact, in our call centres last year we were seeing longer-than-normal wait times in large part due to the inventory benefits we had. I am pleased to say, with the investments that have been made, we are reducing our inventories and reducing our call wait times.
This year, for the call centres in and of itself, last year’s average wait times were hovering around an hour and a half. With those investments, we have been able to reduce those wait times significantly this year. In fact, the average wait time this year was somewhere in the neighbourhood of 19 minutes. It is working.
We have a lot of work left to do. We are committed to reducing those inventories.
Senator Loffreda: Do you expect to attain your target by March of 2025?
Ms. Bélanger: One of the things we are doing now is assessing the inventories and complexity of the work.
Much of the workload that does come in is paper in nature; it is not electronic, like some of our other benefits. We do have a modernization initiative where we are looking at streamlining and simplifying the benefit processing.
We are aiming toward meeting the targets. We are paying close attention, as well as the aging demographic. That is our hope. We are on track. You can perhaps ask me at a later date. I’m optimistic.
Senator Loffreda: I will. Last question on that: Most of the targets not attained are non-monetary; it’s all with respect to service?
Ms. Bélanger: Correct. As is the case for all of our benefit processing, our number one priority is to make sure clients receive the benefits to which they are entitled as quickly as possible.
Often, what we will see is sometimes we have items that come into our workload that are non-payment related, so perhaps somebody has an address change but receives direct deposit. We always prioritize payment-related issues first in our inventory.
Thank you, I’ll stay with that. Technology is not an issue?
Ms. Bélanger: I’m sorry, technology?
Senator Loffreda: Technology is not an issue?
Ms. Bélanger: Technology. What I would say is I’m not sure technology is the issue. We have to leverage the technology that we do have. As with many departments, we do have aging technology. Our technical debt is quite high in the benefit network. That is not precluding us at the moment from working through our inventories.
As I mentioned, we are looking at streamlining and simplifying the way we process those benefits to make sure we are maximizing those investments.
Senator Loffreda: Thank you.
Senator MacAdam: My question is for ESDC.
Can you explain the variance in grants spending in the Main Estimates to not-for-profit, for profit and Indigenous organizations, municipal, provincial and territorial governments for adult learning, literacy and essential skills, which has dropped from $42.5 million last year to $18.3 million this year?
Mr. Leonard: Thank you for the question. Sorry, can you give me 30 seconds to look this up?
Senator MacAdam: Sure.
The Chair: Do you have another question?
Senator MacAdam: I do. Again, at a time when costs of living are so high — and career-oriented jobs are difficult to come by — can you explain why ESDC’s contributions to provincial, territorial governments, band councils, tribal councils, Indigenous skills and employment training program agreements are declining by almost 55%, from $972 million last year to $442 million this year?
Mr. Leonard: I’m going to call up my colleague Colette Kaminsky to answer that question. Thank you.
Colette Kaminsky, Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Skills and Employment Branch, Employment and Social Development Canada: Thank you for the question, senator.
In terms of the global numbers that you have seen decline, certainly there were a number of different programs that were received temporary funding throughout the pandemic. I don’t have the details of the category of all the programs that were listed there.
There were significant investments made in programs such as the Sectoral Workforce Solutions Program, the Canadian Apprenticeship Strategy, the Skills for Success program, to name a few, all were temporary in nature and intended to be temporary in nature and had declined.
Those programs continue to return to historic funding levels that existed prior to the pandemic, prior to 2019-20. So I think to look at the year-over-year number may be a bit misleading in terms of declines. You would have to look a little more program by program to see how some of those programs have stabilized. In some cases, it’s slightly higher funding than pre-pandemic and in other cases at equivalent funding prior to the pandemic.
Senator Kingston: My question is related to the introduction of pharmacare. I’m wondering, in your remarks as well as in the budget speech itself, it talks about certain diabetic medications. Which diabetic medications are we talking about? How broad and comprehensive is that type of programming?
Ms. Voisin: Thank you for the question. The list of diabetic medications being considered under the bill is actually published online. We can provide that.
Senator Kingston: If you would, please. That would be good. Could you tell me, though, just from your experience, how many options there are for treatment of diabetes among those medications?
Ms. Voisin: I don’t think I could answer that question. I’m sorry.
Senator Kingston: I’ll leave it at that, then.
Now I’m going to ask you about plans going forward. So it is MS Awareness Month, and multiple sclerosis, or MS, is one of those illnesses that has a lot of need for medication. I’m just wondering if a condition like multiple sclerosis could be on the list of things that are being developed, and more broadly, what is planned to add next? You have diabetes medications. You have contraception. What is next on the list?
Ms. Voisin: Yes. Thank you for the question. What I can say is that the government has really shown that it’s committed to pharmacare. This is really the first phase that — our minister has been out there saying that this is first phase that we are exploring. We are in discussions with provinces and territories. That first phase is focused on diabetes and contraceptives. We’re looking at those discussions. So I don’t think that we can actually tell right now what the future list might look like.
Senator Kingston: One more. There are categories of medications that are catastrophic in terms of being able to afford them, and if you can’t, your illness can’t be treated. In your discussions about phase two and phase three and ongoing, are you looking at what kind of devastating effect the lack of access to medications has in terms of putting new medications on the list for pharmacare?
Ms. Voisin: I can say that in addition to the pharmacare bill which is going through the House, the government has also committed funding to a National Strategy for Drugs for Rare Diseases. We are in discussions with provinces and territories. We’ll be negotiating bilateral agreements with them. They are discussing a common list of drugs that would be considered as drugs for rare diseases, ideally, that all provinces and territories would agree to in terms of the ones that are most critical to move forward with.
Senator Kingston: Among the rare diseases, how rare do you have to be to be considered a rare disease? What would be the number of people in Canada affected, for instance, by a rare disease that would put them in that category?
Ms. Voisin: I don’t have the exact definition of a rare disease in front of me. I can say the discussion of that list of drugs is taking place among the provinces and territories. It’s quite sensitive. As you can imagine, there are business interests at stake, et cetera, in developing that list, as well as pricing negotiations. So we can’t talk about what the list is. In terms of a rare disease, I would have to get back to you to get a sense of what definition they are using in terms of that conversation.
Senator Kingston: That would be great.
Senator LaBoucane-Benson: My question is for Ms. Bess. I believe, just following up on Senator Marshall’s question, the $3.8 billion for agricultural benefits, that’s “Cows and Plows,” right? Is that “Cows and Plows”? Sorry. That’s what we call it in our community. It’s the payment — how did you describe the agricultural benefits, the $3.8 billion?
Ms. Bess: It was for Crown promises under Treaties 1 to 11 to provide various tools and resources to First Nations to start farming —
Senator LaBoucane-Benson: Right.
Ms. Bess: — and other economic pursuits.
Senator LaBoucane-Benson: So back in the day, the “Cows and Plows.”
Ms. Bess: Yes, it’s for treaties signed between 1871 and 1921.
Senator LaBoucane-Benson: This $3.8 billion, can you give me any details on which nations or treaty groups that would cover?
Ms. Bess: It is Treaties 1 to 11. In December 2022, cabinet approved expedited resolution for benefit claims in Treaties 4, 5, 6 and 10. If I could invite one of my colleagues to come the table to speak about it, Christopher Duschenes, director general in resolutions and partnerships, to provide some more context.
Senator LaBoucane-Benson: I’m interested specifically in Alberta, which nations are being settled and how the process for settling cows and plows is.
Christopher Duschenes, Director General, Indigenous Institutions and Governance Modernization, Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs Canada: Thank you very much for the question, Mr. Chair. It is, indeed, referred to as “Cows and Plows.” Since 2023, there have been 40 settled — we can provide you the list of where — for $3.1 billion, as Ms. Bess said, in Treaties 4, 5, 6 and 10, for now, and looking to expand in the future. It has been very successfully using the expedited process.
Senator LaBoucane-Benson: The $3.8 billion is for this next year alone?
Mr. Duschenes: No, sorry. Since the cabinet mandate to pursue the expedited process since 2023, yes, $3.1 billion to the end of March, that has been settled.
Senator LaBoucane-Benson: Okay. For next year, you have $3.8 billion in the budget for future settlements?
Mr. Duschenes: That is right. That is speculative, and based on the negotiations going well with those involved in Treaties 4, 5, 6 and 10.
Senator LaBoucane-Benson: That’s all I hear in my community is cows and plows, so I was very interested to hear about that.
The other question I had was about the grant to the First Nations Finance Authority, and there has been $1 million dollars the last three years for that. Can you provide details of how that money is spent?
Mr. Duschenes: Yes. Thanks for the question. We work with the four First Nations Fiscal Management Act institutions as a result of Bill C-45 which passed last June. The First Nations Infrastructure Institute was created then. The First Nations Finance Authority gets a million-dollar grant annually. They are on a cost-recovery basis. You will notice that their funding is significantly lower than the other institutions because they generate a significant amount of their own revenue.
Senator LaBoucane-Benson: Great. Thanks.
Mr. Duschenes: For their general operations.
Senator LaBoucane-Benson: Got it. That’s great. Thank you.
[Translation]
The Chair: We have time for a third round. You’ll have two and a half to three minutes, no more. You have three minutes maximum each, including the question and the answer.
[English]
Senator Marshall: Mr. Leonard, the learning skills, development and employment, the $1.2 billion, why is that non‑budgetary?
Mr. Leonard: That is non-budgetary because it is loans disbursed to Canada Student Loans, for student recipients.
Senator Marshall: Oh, that’s the loans.
Mr. Leonard: Yes.
Senator Marshall: Okay. My next question is child care spaces. My records say there are 97,000 spaces created so far, and the loans — the $1 billion expansion loan program, I think it will be administered by the Canada Mortgage & Housing Corporation, or CMHC, but do you have an estimate as to how many spaces this is going to create?
Mr. Leonard: Correct. That loan, the billion dollars announced in Budget 2024, is for CMHC.
Senator Marshall: Do you know how many spaces that will create?
Mr. Leonard: Sorry. That is a question for CMHC.
Senator Marshall: Can you send that number to the clerk? You’re supposed to create 250,000 spaces by March of 2026, and there is 97,000 created so far. So you might not make that 250,000 spaces, so I’m just wondering how many are going to be created out of the $1 billion.
Mr. Leonard: I don’t have that information now, but we can get back to you in writing.
The Chair: I am impressed.
Senator Moncion: Ms. Bess, this question is for you.
You mentioned in your remarks that you had resolved or were working on resolving 35 settlements by the end of the year. You were talking about an operational amount of $2 billion. Can you make the connection between the two, please?
Ms. Bess: Thank you for the question.
From the operational perspective, the settlements are usually very large litigations, some of which are confidential in nature right now. Some of the others are for specific claims, which my colleague Christopher Duschenes was speaking about. Perhaps I can have him come back to the table to join us to speak about some of those claims.
Senator Moncion: Are we talking about the same claims?
Ms. Bess: They are different. Our vote 1 operating votes are all for litigated situations, like class action lawsuits, and these are specific claims for past treaties where we haven’t fulfilled our treaty obligations and things like that — like the agricultural benefits.
Senator Moncion: So the $3.8 billion for the 40 settled with — he was saying 4, 5, 6 and 10.
Ms. Bess: Yes.
Senator Moncion: And now we are talking about another 35 that are being litigated. There is $2 billion set aside for the litigation? Is that right?
Ms. Bess: No, there are actually separate. The 35 are more for the specific claims and the agricultural benefits we were referring to. The other claims are more like one-off large payments. Last year, we had a big one — a $2.9 billion settlement for residential school payments and to survivors for common experience payments and that.
So they are separate. I understand the confusion, because they are claims, but in terms of the performance indicators that we have in our departmental plan, those are more for the specific claims in past wrongdoings with respect to treaties.
Senator Moncion: Okay. So for these 35 claims right now, there is no money that is associated with them because they are not settled yet. Should that be coming in a supplementary estimates at another time?
Ms. Bess: No. We actually have a pool of funding to settle some of these specific claims that we access. Maybe I can just ask my colleague to come and explain that process for the specific claims distribution. Thank you.
Mr. Duschenes: There is a claims envelope for specific claims under $150 million that is a pool that sits there and can be drawn down as the claims are settled. You’re talking about specific claims.
Senator Moncion: Is $150 million enough?
Mr. Duschenes: No, it is each claim, up to a maximum of $150 million, unless it’s a large one, and then it goes back to the cabinet for a decision. Generally, yes, some of the specific claims, a lot have been settled for under $150 million.
Senator Moncion: Thank you.
Senator Smith: Mr. Leonard, one of your performance indicators relates to closing the employment rate gap between Indigenous and non-Indigenous people. Results for 2020-23 have not changed and remain at 14.1%. Your target is set at no more than 12.4%. Can you explain why this gap has not been reduced since 2020? What are some of the factors outside the control of ESDC that impact employment rates in different groups?
Mr. Leonard: Thank you for the question. I will again call upon my colleague, Ms. Kaminsky, to the table.
Ms. Kaminsky: Thank you for the question. I also have colleagues here who are probably very well conversant on labour market challenges around Indigenous peoples.
It is a very complex set of issues that we attempt to tackle through a wide variety of programming, skills and employment. We work on K-12-related programming with provinces and territories under their jurisdiction. We work with, on a distinction-based approach, with Indigenous communities around their priorities to support community learning and skills development that are critical to have the foundational and “socio-emotional” skills required to grow in a learning environment. We have programming inside of ESDC — two major programs. One is the ISED program, the Indigenous Skills and Employment Development program, which is a 10-year set of agreements that we have allocated on a distinctions-based approach across the country to put the tools and funding in the hands of Indigenous communities to develop their learning priorities. Those strategies are 10-years in nature, because it is a multigenerational endeavour to continue to invest in families and communities, and create the tools needed to grow the participation rates.
It would be very surprising for virtually any demographic in the country to see major shifts in employment and participation rates in a one- or two-year time. These are required generational investments.
But we also invest in the Strategic Partnerships Initiative, which is the ability to do project-based funding across Canada to work with, for example, employers if they want to become more reconciliation-confident to grow employment rates.
It requires a multi-strategy investment, including with our economic development partners, which are working —
Senator Smith: So have you had any signs of progress or hope? Is there any bright lights that you have seen that you can identify so that when people ask you the question, instead of general answers, we can give specifics?
The Chair: Five seconds.
Ms. Kaminsky: Sure, yes, there are many examples. I would love to provide a list of some great examples of projects that we do.
Senator Smith: Take your top five and send those back to us so we can have something to be able to analyze ourselves. Would that be possible?
Ms. Kaminsky: Sure, I would be happy to provide that.
Senator Pate: My question is for Ms. Francis.
Both Budget 2024 and Health Canada’s most recent departmental plan emphasized the goal of a national universal pharmacare, but with the tabling of Bill C-64, pharmacare experts are urging that if Canada is to ensure universal and equitable drug coverage, as well as the associated cost savings, the bill must be a first incremental step toward a national universal single-payer system.
I’m noting that in some of the material that is coming out, there is talk still about national universal pharmacare but not necessary low a single-payer system.
So what concrete measures are Health Canada taking to prepare for the next step toward such a universal single-payer system?
Ms. Voisin: We can say the bill is going through the parliamentary system, and as I noted, we’re prepared to engage with provinces and territories in discussions about what this would look like.
The minister has been clear: This is phase one. We’re learning from our experience with P.E.I. where we implemented pharmacare. We’re learning from our experience in discussions with provinces and territories on drugs for rare diseases.
As we engage in those discussions, we’ll sort the path forward.
Senator Pate: Single-payer being left out of the description is just incidental? I shouldn’t take anything from it? Thank you.
[Translation]
Senator Dalphond: I’m going to continue with the subject I started on earlier, but this time for you, Mr. Leonard, or the lady who was here earlier.
[English]
There are contributions of $27 million for the purpose of complementing the Indigenous Early Learning and Child Care Framework, and there is also $274 million for the Indigenous Early Learning and Child Care Transformation Initiative. So that’s another program that is run by another department targeting same type of clientele?
Mr. Leonard: I’m going to call Karen Hall to the table, but the Indigenous Early Learning and Child Care Plan is a horizontal program between four departments. Ms. Hall will get more into it — with my two colleagues to the right, as well as the Public Health Agency of Canada.
Senator Dalphond: Okay.
[Translation]
Karen Hall, Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Income Security and Social Development Branch, Employment and Social Development Canada: Good evening, and thank you for the question, Senator Dalphond.
[English]
As my colleague outlined, the funding for the Indigenous Early Learning and Child Care Program is distinctions-based. It is a collaborative effort among departments so that the funding can be provided to First Nations, Inuit or Métis through the funding vehicle that they prefer.
We do some transfers of funding behind the scenes so that it’s as simple and straightforward as possible for our Indigenous partners to receive the funds and put them to use on the ground.
Senator Dalphond: Is it possible to keep track of the overall amount?
Ms. Hall: It certainly is. We can total that up and send it over to the committee, absolutely.
Senator Dalphond: Thank you.
Senator Loffreda: My question is for the CFO of Health Canada, Serena Francis. Good evening. Thank you for being with us.
Health Canada’s actual expenditures for voted appropriations were between $2.2 billion and $3.3 billion annually from 2017-18 to 2020-21. They’ve fluctuated between $4 billion to $8 billion since then. Now in 2024-25, the authorities requested in the Main Estimates are $8.4 billion.
Can you explain the substantial increase? Do you expect this trend to continue?
Ms. Francis: Thank you for the question. Yes, we were talking earlier about how much Health Canada’s budget has grown over the last period of time, obviously pre-pandemic and then there was the influx through the pandemic to respond, and since then, it’s been major health care system investments taking place, things like the bilateral agreements that Jocelyne Voisin was talking about earlier, as well as the implementation of the Canadian Dental Care Plan, which is a significant increase to those reference levels.
If I compare last year’s Main Estimates to this year’s Main Estimates, it was $4 billion to now $8.7 billion. About $2.6 billion of this amount relates to those bilateral health agreements across the country, and about $2 billion relates to the implementation of the dental care program. I don’t foresee that those are going to go away. Those are new programs that have been implemented. Certainly, the bilateral health agreements are 10-year agreements, and the dental care program was just launched today. The anticipation is that that will continue. The amount, as you know, grows. It is $4 billion ongoing once it reaches its steady state. I don’t anticipate that amount is going to go down, and then it will go up a bit over the next few years as well.
Senator Loffreda: You don’t anticipate it going down, but what is the increase that you do anticipate for the next few years?
Ms. Francis: I don’t know if I have the specific numbers in front of me, but I do anticipate, for instance, like I said, with the dental care program, there is the $2 billion extra that will come in over the next couple of years, so it will go up by at least that. Then there will be some sunsetting programs, but those programs are much smaller dollar value things as compared to the large investments that are now taking place in the health care system.
Senator Loffreda: Thank you.
Senator MacAdam: My question is for Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs Canada.
I noticed in the Main Estimates there is approximately $25 million in the “L-15” vote for loans to Indigenous claimants. Would you elaborate on that program? What are the criteria?
Ms. Bess: Thank you for the question.
These are loans to fund specific claims and comprehensive claims negotiations. Starting in 2018-19, the comprehensive claims negotiations were no longer funded through these loans and were instead replaced by non-repayable contributions. Specific claims, which my colleague Christopher Duschenes was here speaking about, are still funded through loans using this loan authority. It is really to enable Aboriginal groups to engage in negotiations with Canada and other stakeholders and provide informed consent when they have signed treaties. It is to involve them in the process of negotiating settlements. Was that helpful?
Senator MacAdam: Yes. Thank you.
Senator Ross: This question is for Mr. Leonard. I am interested in the Workforce Development Agreements and the Labour Market Development Agreements, or LMDAs. I notice that the investment went from $922 million in 2022-23 down to $722 million. Can you give me a sense of why that is?
Mr. Leonard: Thank you for the question. I will call my colleague Colette Kaminsky back to the table, but you are right. Since 2017, the funding for the Workforce Development Agreements has been $922 million, and now it is back to $722 million in this year’s Main Estimates.
Ms. Kaminsky: Thank you for the question. The Workforce Development Agreements were established in 2008 when we amalgamated in the department a number of different programs to create a consistent and flexible funding mechanism to provinces. That funding has a core funding level. As was mentioned, we’re returning to that core funding investment level as of this fiscal year. Between 2017 and to last fiscal year, there was a temporary additional set of funding that fluctuated in different years at different amounts, and Budget 2023 announced an extension of one more year to that temporary funding. As of Budget 2024, we’re returning to that core funding level, which is in perpetuity. It has been in place since 2008 and will continue indefinitely.
Senator Ross: I know there are some agreements in place to have stakeholder engagement. Is there a requirement for the provinces to do stakeholder engagement in order to get the LMDA funding?
Ms. Kaminsky: The short answer is yes. It’s a flexible mechanism, but there are requirements to demonstrate annual plans, demonstrate that we’re working with stakeholders in different facets and different provisions under the agreement that we’re linked to persons with disabilities and linked with official language minority communities, but it’s done very flexibly to allow the province to determine the best way to shift priorities.
Also, twice a year I hold a workforce development committee with each of the provinces so that we can discuss and collaborate in an agile way what consultations may be happening at the federal level and how we coordinate with the provinces. As well, we host the Forum of Labour Market Ministers, where all 14 jurisdictions are at the table to discuss and continue to find ways of engaging our stakeholders in a collaborative and consistent manner.
Senator Ross: Are you referring to the performance management systems when you talk about the flexible agreements where they can manage their programs?
Ms. Kaminsky: That’s right. It is an agreement. There is a prescribed framework for outcomes that we’re trying to achieve, but provinces can prioritize between different areas and outcomes. They can focus on working with more newcomers, for example, if that would be a key priority in certain provinces, probably in all provinces. Or they could focus on issues that are particularly challenging in certain communities — for example, Indigenous communities.
Senator Ross: Thank you.
Senator Kingston: There was a recent Auditor General of Canada report, and I would like to find out what your plans are. This is probably for Mr. Thomson and maybe Ms. Bess, I’m not sure.
In this report of the Auditor General from 2024, she says that Indigenous Services Canada and the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation have been mandated to work with First Nations to meet their housing needs by 2030, and they found that 80% of these needs were still not met. I’m thinking about the health issues around mould and so on and reparation of the existing housing stock as well as what may be needed in terms of new. What are the plans in the budget for more and better housing?
Mr. Thompson: Thank you for the question. I will ask my colleague Paula Hadden-Jokiel to join us to answer the question.
Ms. Hadden-Jokiel: Thank you for the question, senator. Yes, there was a recent Auditor General’s report on housing. There are seven areas of recommendations. The one you mentioned is mould. One is closing the gap. There were also recommendations around the housing conditions capacity funding, streamlined processes, national building codes and the approach to service transfer.
In the most recent budget, there was $426 million over five years identified for First Nations housing on reserve. That complements additional resources that we already have in place. We will be working closely with our First Nations partners to further develop the action plan that we have put together to address the recommendations that the Auditor General identified.
Senator Kingston: Do you believe that this amount will accelerate what has been going on so far in terms of the gaps and the reparation needed to some of that stock?
Ms. Hadden-Jokiel: Absolutely. We’re at current high record levels of investments in housing on reserve. The needs are significant. The Assembly of First Nations has issued their report and quantified the infrastructure gap. It’s over $300 billion. There is a significant resource investment that is required to close the gap.
As well as the influx of additional funding, we are also looking at other ways in terms of modernizing approach to housing. We’re looking at how we can work proactively with other partners around ways to support the development of housing on reserve.
[Translation]
The Chair: I’d like to ask you about a few points. First of all, Ms. Voisin, you spoke earlier about the agreements between each of the provinces, with amounts for each of them, objectives to be achieved or particularities for each of the agreements.
When you testified, I saw a dashboard in your face that you probably had nearby. Am I mistaken?
Ms. Voisin: There’s a dashboard in each of the provincial and territorial action plans, meaning that they all have indicators and targets for the three-year period in their action plans. In addition, the Canadian Institute for Health Information also has a dashboard for eight common indicators.
The Chair: Is it possible to have the dashboards you have, which result from the agreements, as well as the amounts paid to each of the provinces for the last four years?
Ms. Voisin: The agreements were signed this year and cover a three-year period.
The Chair: Can we go back three years and see the amounts that will be paid out over the next three years? Will we see them in this year’s agreement?
Ms. Voisin: Yes. All the action plans are public and online. We can provide you with a dashboard that summarizes all the indicators and targets for each province.
The Chair: And the amounts of each agreement paid to each province.
Ms. Voisin: Yes, absolutely.
The Chair: I also have a question for Health Canada about the contribution to Canada Health Infoway. In 2022, it was $38 million; in 2023-24, it was $8 million, and now it’s $87 million. What’s the explanation for this variation?
Ms. Voisin: Money was given to Canada Health Infoway. That’s part of our health data and digital health program that I was talking about earlier. Canada Health Infoway plays a key role in implementing the Shared Pan-Canadian Interoperability Roadmap for the technical exchange of health data and in ensuring common standards across the country.
Canada Health Infoway is playing a leading role in this project, in collaboration with the provinces and territories.
The Chair: There’s another $4.3 billion in contributions to the provinces and territories for shared health costs. I assume this is in addition to the health agreements. We have the amount for 2024-25, but we don’t have the history for previous years, and we don’t have the details by province and territory. Would it be possible to send it to us?
Ms. Voisin: As for funding for the agreements with the provinces and territories, a large portion of it was paid out this fiscal year.
The Chair: Is that why there aren’t any previous years?
Ms. Voisin: Exactly. However, part of the agreements are from previous funding that began in 2017.
The Chair: That’s what we had in our notes.
Ms. Voisin: In 2017, there was 10-year funding for mental health and community home care agreements. That funding continues, and new funding has been added. We can give you the details.
The Chair: The details of the $4.3 billion? I have one last question for Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs Canada. I see millions and billions of dollars in negotiations and rebates. I almost regret not going into Indigenous law. Can we get an idea of the professional fees in your departments that are related to land disputes or treaty negotiations? How much do you pay in professional fees to consultants, accountants, historians and lawyers? I’d like a breakdown of what seem to be fairly substantial amounts.
This concludes our meeting this evening. Thank you all for your cooperation and discipline. Thank you to the whole team. I would like to remind you that, as far as the commitment to answer our questions is concerned, you are to provide us with the answers by end of day May 15, 2024. I remind honourable senators that the next meeting will be held on Tuesday, May 7, at 9:00 a.m. to continue our study of the Main Estimates.
As usual, before we adjourn, I would like to thank our entire support team, the interpreters, all the staff, Ms. Dubé, and the analysts. Thank you very much.
(The committee adjourned.)