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NFFN - Standing Committee

National Finance


THE STANDING SENATE COMMITTEE ON NATIONAL FINANCE

EVIDENCE


Ottawa, Wednesday, December 11, 2024

The Standing Senate Committee on National Finance met this day at 6:45 p.m. [ET] to study the Supplementary Estimates (B) for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2025.

Senator Claude Carignan (Chair) in the chair.

[Translation]

The Chair: Before we begin, I would like to ask all Senators and other in-person participants to consult the cards on the table for guidelines to prevent audio feedback incidents.

Please make sure to keep your earpiece away from the mic. When you are not using your earpiece, place it face down, on the sticker placed on the table. Thank you for your cooperation.

I wish to welcome all of the senators as well as the viewers across the country who are watching us on sencanada.ca. My name is Claude Carignan, and I am a senator from Québec and chair of the Standing Senate Committee on National Finance. I would like to ask my colleagues to introduce themselves starting from my left.

Senator Forest: Good evening and welcome. Éric Forest, Gulf division, Quebec.

Senator Galvez: Rosa Galvez, from Quebec.

Senator Loffreda: Good evening. Tony Loffreda, from Quebec. Welcome.

[English]

Senator MacAdam: Jane MacAdam, Prince Edward Island.

Senator Kingston: Joan Kingston, New Brunswick. Welcome.

Senator Ross: Welcome. Krista Ross from New Brunswick.

[Translation]

Senator Moreau: Good evening. Pierre Morneau, the Laurentides division, Quebec.

Senator Smith: Larry W. Smith, Saurel division, Quebec.

The Chair: Thank you, colleagues. Today, we resume our study on the expenditures set out in the Supplementary Estimates (B) for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2025, which was referred to this committee on November 20, 2024, by the Senate of Canada.

We are pleased to have with us Nathalie Manseau, Assistant Deputy Minister and Chief Financial Officer, Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada; Pierre Tessier, Assistant Deputy Minister, Chief Financial Officer and Corporate Services Branch, Veterans Affairs Canada; and Michel Tremblay, Chief Financial Officer and Senior Vice President, Corporate Services, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation.

Thank you for accepting our invitation. Each of the officials at the table will have five minutes to give their opening remarks. Ms. Manseau, you have the floor.

Nathalie Manseau, Assistant Deputy Minister and Chief Financial Officer, Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada: Thank you.

[English]

Good evening, Mr. Chair and members of the committee. Let me begin by acknowledging that we are meeting today on the traditional unceded territories of the Algonquin Anishinaabe people.

[Translation]

Thank you for inviting me to appear to discuss the Supplementary Estimates (B), 2024-25. My name is Nathalie Manseau and I am the Assistant Deputy Minister and Chief Financial Officer at Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada.

[English]

I am joined today by my colleagues Pemi Gill, Assistant Deputy Minister, Service Delivery; Soyoung Park, Assistant Deputy Minister, Asylum and Refugee Resettlement; and Emmanuelle Deault-Bonin, Director General, Strategic and Horizontal Policy. They will assist me in providing added perspective and information on how the supplementary estimates support the department’s plans and priorities.

Immigration remains essential to our country’s economic success and growth. Funding in the Supplementary Estimates (B) will assist Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada, or IRCC, to address the pressures facing our system and communities. We are seeking an increase of $1.2 billion to the current authorities of $5.3 billion, bringing the total authorities to $6.5 billion.

[Translation]

A portion of the supplementary funding requested in these supplementary estimates will be used to support refugee claimants through various programs. More specifically, a single payment of $581 million is requested to provide the remaining balance of $750 million in recognition of the influx of refugee claimants between 2021 and 2024, as the Prime Minister and the Premier of Quebec announced in June. This funding is in addition to the eligible activities under the Interim Housing Assistance Program.

[English]

In recognition of the challenges faced by provinces, municipalities and community partners due to high volumes of asylum claimants and the increased demand for shelter support, IRCC is seeking funding of $228 million for the Interim Housing Assistance Program. Through this program, the federal government provides funding to partners to support the housing needs of asylum claimants.

[Translation]

In addition, we are seeking $100.4 million in order to continue offering refugee claimants temporary housing in hotels until December 31, 2024. This will enable the department to renew the hotel rental agreements and agreements with suppliers of services for refugee claimants who do not have access to a shelter or affordable housing. Supplying accommodation directly to refugee claimants was to be a short-term emergency measure and we are continuing to work closely with our partners in order to transition to a sustainable temporary accommodation model.

[English]

This budget includes $232 million for the Interim Federal Health Program to cover incremental costs related to the provision of health care benefits to eligible beneficiaries, such as asylum seekers.

To continue our work building Canada’s modern, digital and data-driven migration system, we are seeking to reprofile $36 million from previous years for use on the third phase of the Digital Platform Modernization program. The modernization is allowing us to digitize our programs and applications while improving processing and client services.

[Translation]

IRCC is also seeking funding of $19.7 million for the partial visa requirement imposed for Mexico. This funding is necessary to ensure that IRCC is able to provide a high level of customer service for all applicants from Mexico and, at the same time, maintain the present level of customer service worldwide.

[English]

Funding of $12 million is being sought to provide transitional financial assistance for clients arriving through the Americas humanitarian pathway. This funding is required to provide financial assistance through the Resettlement Assistance Program to recipients with family in Canada who are arriving from Colombia, Haiti and Venezuela. This program was announced alongside the updated Safe Third Country Agreement in March 2023.

[Translation]

These are the most significant items in the Supplementary Estimates (B). I look forward to your questions. Thank you.

The Chair: Thank you, Ms. Manseau. Mr. Tessier, you have the floor.

[English]

Pierre Tessier, Assistant Deputy Minister, Chief Financial Officer and Corporate Services, Veterans Affairs Canada: Thank you, Mr. Chair and members, for the invitation to appear before the committee to discuss the Supplementary Estimates (B) for Veterans Affairs Canada.

Before doing so, I would like to begin by acknowledging that we are gathered on the traditional unceded, unsurrendered territory of the Anishinaabe Algonquin people. Acknowledging the land upon which we gather is crucial to our continuous dedication to reconciliation and our responsibility as Canadian people.

As Canadians, we also have the responsibility to honour the sacrifice of our Canadian Armed Forces members, veterans and their families, who give of themselves in service to our country. As a veteran myself, I understand the lasting impacts of the call to serve. For veterans and their families in the room or watching today, I would like to thank them for their service.

Delivering the care, benefits, support and recognition that veterans and their families deserve in their post-service life is one way in which we recognize their sacrifice. This depends on the investments that we’re making through today’s supplementary estimates.

As you’re aware, over 90% of the department’s budget represents payments to veterans, their families and other program recipients. Through these estimates, Veterans Affairs Canada’s budget in 2024-25 will increase by $954 million from $6.758 billion to $7.712 billion. Of the $954-million increase in Veterans Affairs Canada’s budget, $942 million will be used for demand-driven programs and services which provide supports to eligible veterans and their families. This additional funding is the direct result of the continued increase in veterans seeking supports and services. For example, this year, Veterans Affairs Canada is on pace to receive and process 94,000 applications for disability compensation, which is 15,000 more applications than were submitted in the previous year.

This increased funding will ensure that Veterans Affairs Canada is able to support every veteran who comes forward seeking the disability compensation, rehab services or income supports that they require. Such investments demonstrate the government’s dedication to honouring the sacrifices made by veterans to ensure their post-service needs are met.

These estimates also include $4 million in funding to commemorate significant Canadian military milestones, including the eightieth anniversary of D-Day and the beginning of the Battle of Normandy. It is one of our most significant duties to always honour the sacrifices made by millions of Canadians during the world wars in their commitment to defending global peace and freedom.

At the same time, we must recognize the contributions of modern-day veterans in protecting peace and security worldwide. A notable example of this was last month when a Government of Canada delegation joined Canadian veterans and their families to commemorate the sixtieth anniversary of peacekeeping in Cyprus. It was a journey that held deep personal significance for those who served in Operation SNOWGOOSE and their families. They were able to connect with fellow veterans who served over the years and share stories of their service with other Canadians.

[Translation]

The estimates also include $750,000 to support Canada’s Second World War museum in Europe, the Juno Beach Centre. In view of its mandate, which is to preserve our military heritage for future generations through education and commemoration, it is essential that we continue to invest in the centre and its commemorative events.

Veterans Affairs Canada will also use $2.75 million from the estimates to continue its remembrance and mental health campaigns. That funding will be used primarily so that Canadians continue to honour those who served and so that those who served are aware of the supports available to them to ensure their continued well-being.

The estimates also provide a supplementary amount of $2 million for the Veteran and Family Well-being Fund, which is in addition to the fund’s current budget of $3 million.

[English]

A portion of this funding is to be allocated to organizations and initiatives that support veterans’ health and employment as well as women, Indigenous and 2SLGBTQI+ veterans.

Allocating funds toward programs and services that specifically target the unique needs of these equity-deserving veterans allows us to better promote equality, dignity and empowerment within the veteran community. It’s important that we recognize the diverse experiences and challenges faced by equity-deserving veterans and that we demonstrate a commitment to creating a more inclusive and supportive environment for all those who have served our country.

[Translation]

In total, the Supplementary Estimates (B) add $954 million to Veterans Affairs Canada’s budget. I can assure you that this additional funding comprises an important and necessary investment in the health and well-being of our veterans and their families.

[English]

Today, I’m accompanied by Deputy CFO Jonathan Adams. We would be pleased to take your questions. Thank you.

[Translation]

The Chair: Thank you. Mr. Tremblay, you have the floor.

[English]

Michel Tremblay, Chief Financial Officer and Senior Vice-President, Corporate Services, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation: Mr. Chair, thank you for the invitation to discuss the 2024-25 Supplementary Estimates (B) as they pertain to the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, or CMHC.

It is an honour to be here on the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinaabe people.

One of CMHC’s roles is to deliver federal housing programming. It’s a role that we’re proud of and that we take seriously, and that we perform well. It improves the lives of people across the country.

The Supplementary Estimates (B) include $742.3 million in voted authorities to allow CMHC to do that work. Of this total, $273.3 million is new funding stemming from Treasury Board submissions, while the rest are reprofile requests.

[Translation]

I don’t have time in my opening remarks to go through the whole list. But I’ll draw your attention to a couple of the more notable ones. For example, there is $231.9 million from previous-year lapses for CMHC to support the Canada Community Housing Initiative and provincial and territorial initiatives. This is funding that’s cost-matched by provinces and territories as part of the National Housing Strategy. It exists to protect, regenerate and expand community housing administered by provinces and territories, and supported by former federal programs.

Partly because it’s a joint funding initiative, this one tends to fly under the radar. But it’s a crucial program that’s ensuring that Canada’s community housing stock remains affordable and viable well into the future. This is an investment of over $4.3 billion which is cost-matched by the provinces and territories.

[English]

As for new funding, the estimates include $100.6 million to top up the Housing Accelerator Fund. So far, the government has signed 178 agreements with communities across Canada. These agreements are helping to fast-track the construction of more than 105,000 housing units to date, with many more to come based on the pledges in those agreements.

This new top-up funding will allow even more local governments to come on board. As I said, these are just a couple of examples. I would refer you to the full Supplementary Estimates (B) for the rest.

If we look at the big picture, the investments we’re discussing here today make it possible for us to deliver the Government of Canada’s housing commitments to Canadians. These investments fund programs to build more new housing and to repair and protect existing affordable and community housing. They help the people of Canada access housing that meets their needs, prioritizing our most vulnerable neighbours.

Much of this work falls under the Government of Canada’s National Housing Strategy, which was launched in 2017 and carried forward with Canada’s Housing Plan announced earlier this year. That work is generating real results.

As of September 30, the government has committed more than $57 billion in funding under the strategy. Those funds have supported the creation of more than 157,000 new homes and the repair of more than 296,000. The investments highlighted in the supplementary estimates will generate even more housing and housing affordability for individuals and families across the country.

Thanks again for the invitation today, and I’m happy to answer any questions you have.

[Translation]

The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Tremblay.

Senator Forest: Thank you for your presentations. My first question is for you, Ms. Manseau. You are seeking $581,300,000 for the Interim Housing Assistance Program. What is the initial amount provided in the main estimates for the Interim Housing Assistance Program?

Ms. Manseau: The total for the program in the year will come to $543 million.

Senator Forest: Here, you are seeking $581,300,000, and you did not provide any budget for this program in the main estimates?

Ms. Manseau: I’m sorry, I may not be understanding the translation correctly. Are you referring to the Interim Housing Assistance Program?

Senator Forest: It must be my Gaspé accent. I am referring to the Interim Housing Assistance Program, the IHAP.

Ms. Manseau: I’m going to clarify, to make sure I understand your question correctly. We are seeking $100 million for hotels in the Supplementary Estimates (B). There is also $581 million for the single payment to Quebec, and we are seeking $229 million for the Interim Housing Assistance Program. You were asking what the total is for the Interim Housing Assistance Program. In 2024-25, the figure comes to $543 million.

Senator Forest: I am the one who is not understanding. This means that there is no money provided in the main estimates for this program?

Ms. Manseau: Exactly. The program was renewed for 2024-25. We received funds in the Supplementary Estimates (A) and also in the Supplementary Estimates (B). So there was nothing in the Main Estimates.

Senator Forest: Nothing was provided because you didn’t think the program would be renewed?

Ms. Manseau: The program was expiring on March 31, 2024. It had to be renewed for the 2024-25 fiscal year.

Senator Forest: Right. My next question is about this program. In Rimouski, housing is so scarce that the city has had to develop a housing search help service. The city even has to store immigrants’ personal property to help with their transition. Are these kinds of expenses covered by the Interim Housing Assistance Program?

Ms. Manseau: The program helps with the expenses incurred by municipalities to help with temporary housing. There is a list of eligible expenses. I would have to get back to you to check whether those specific expenses would be recognized as eligible expenses.

Senator Forest: We know that an immigrant emigrates to a country but settles in a city. The city is facing day-to-day expenses to support transition, integration and housing, even if there though a lot of volunteering being done. Would it be possible to give us the information in writing, to know whether this kind of expense is covered?

Mr. Tremblay, in recent months I have met with people from shelters for victims of spousal violence and with representatives of the Ronald McDonald houses. Both groups said the federal and provincial programs are poorly suited for funding the expansion of the ever growing needs for this type of housing to support families. Do you have programs for this kind of facility, like a Ronald McDonald house whose obligations to its clients mean that it has to expand, and which is self-financing its operations already but needs support to expand its facilities? Is there a program like this at CMHC?

Mr. Tremblay: So I can understand the question better, the type of housing is transitional?

Senator Forest: Yes, transitional housing for battered women, for example, or parents with a child in hospital who have to travel from a town outside the big cities to Quebec City or Montreal.

Mr. Tremblay: We had a rapid housing program that no longer exists. However, the government has just launched a program under the Affordable Housing Fund. There will be a component dedicated to supportive housing for persons fleeing violence. There is also the Canada Housing Benefit. Funds are delivered through the provinces and territories and are allocated to this kind of program.

Senator Forest: I will have more questions in the second round.

[English]

Senator Smith: Ms. Manseau, I would like to follow up on Senator Forest’s question. We are looking at the alignment of funding with housing and the asylum programs. Your most recent departmental plan emphasizes the need for sustainable measures to handle rising asylum volumes, systemic challenges and shelter capacity.

In these supplementary estimates, your department requests, as we said, an additional $581 million allocated for asylum seekers in Quebec and an additional $100 million for temporary accommodations, seeking to prevent homelessness and promote integration into local communities.

Here is my question: Could you explain how the roughly $600 million being requested aligns with the long-term objectives of the Interim Housing Assistance Program? How will these funds address systemic pressures such as growing demands on shelter capacity and integration services?

Ms. Manseau: Thank you for the question.

Soyoung Park, Assistant Deputy Minister, Asylum and Refugee Resettlement, Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada: Thank you for the question. My name is Soyoung Park and I’m the Assistant Deputy Minister for Asylum and Refugee Resettlement. I will try to tackle the question. It was a pretty big question.

In terms of the Interim Housing Assistance Program, it’s a grant and contribution program. In Budget 2024, it was announced that in order to address one of the irritants from provinces and municipalities that are helping to shelter asylum claimants, they needed a grant program that would be more predictable and sustainable. That’s why we have three years of funding of $1.1 billion that was provided through the budget.

Senator Smith: What is the objective besides having funding? What are you trying to establish? Is it going to be a short-term, medium-term or long-term program?

Ms. Park: Thank you. It’s a multi-year grant program to provide municipalities and provinces with the ability to provide more permanent or sustainable housing models. An example of that would be the reception centres for increased capacity that are being built by the Peel Region and also the City of Ottawa. Advance funding was provided to both.

In some of the models that they are developing, instead of just reimbursing municipalities for shelter costs, they are looking at buying things like transitional homes, specifically for asylum claimants, with some wraparound services. We know that for the most part, what asylum claimants need is information up front and as soon as possible to make them more independent with integration services. They don’t normally fall into the chronic homelessness scenarios that we see. That’s why these specialized services will be good to increase capacity in the general shelter system and also to increase the financial independence of asylum claimants as soon as possible.

Senator Smith: Is this a three-year program or a five-year program? Will this program go on indefinitely?

Ms. Park: Budget 2024 provided three years of funding.

Senator Smith: Thank you.

[Translation]

Senator Moreau: Ms. Manseau, the biggest request for additional appropriations is for $581 million and a bit more, for funding to support refugee claimants in Quebec.

This is a balance, is that right? This $581 million is a balance?

Ms. Manseau: It is a one-time payment that will be made to Quebec. It was announced in June to address the higher numbers of requests from refugee claimants for 2021 to 2024.

Senator Moreau: So how much was the Quebec government’s original request?

Ms. Manseau: The total agreed to with Quebec is $750 million; that figure includes the $581 million provided in the Supplementary Estimates (B).

Senator Moreau: That is my question, whether the $581 million in the supplementary estimates represents the balance of a $750 million figure.

Ms. Manseau: This figure is part of the $750 million.

Senator Moreau: The other part has already been paid?

Ms. Manseau: One part has been paid; $67 million has been paid. And the remaining amount, which is about $102 million, is also included in the Supplementary Estimates (B).

Senator Moreau: Where is that provided?

Ms. Manseau: In the Interim Housing Assistance Program.

Senator Moreau: Which is the second one. So in the $203 million there is an additional $100 million that will cover the total of $750 million.

Ms. Manseau: There is $100 million for Quebec and the rest of it is for other provinces.

Senator Moreau: So 50% of the $203 million will be used to support refugee claims in Quebec, is that correct?

Ms. Manseau: Yes, that’s correct.

Senator Moreau: When you say the $750 million represents money that has been agreed to, is there an agreement between the Government of Quebec and the federal government about that money?

Ms. Manseau: Yes, an agreement was signed in June 2024.

Senator Moreau: So that’s what the $750 million is?

Ms. Manseau: That’s right.

Senator Moreau: My second question is for Mr. Tremblay. One item in the additional appropriations of $231 million is the Canada Community Housing Initiative and the provincial and territorial initiatives. You said these were funds that had not been spent in the previous budget year, is that correct?

Mr. Tremblay: Yes.

Senator Moreau: The provinces provide equivalent amounts, is that correct?

Mr. Tremblay: That’s correct.

Senator Moreau: That means there would be almost a half million dollars, if I multiply the $231 million that was not spent last year by two, is that correct?

Mr. Tremblay: That’s correct. Most of those funds come from Ontario, Senator.

We sign bilateral agreements with all the provinces and territories under the National Housing Strategy, and the provinces and territories commit to three-year action plans.

The Minister was not satisfied with the results that Ontario presented in its first plan, so we negotiated. The province submitted another plan and we are now ready to pay out the money to the province.

I should point out, Mr. Chair, that this does not necessarily mean that Ontario didn’t spend that money, it means it is waiting for the corresponding part from the federal government.

Senator Moreau: The provinces have often done that, at least Quebec has; I was minister of housing and we were in this type of program. The provinces spend the money and are then reimbursed by the federal government under the agreements, is that correct?

Mr. Tremblay: That’s correct, yes.

Senator Moreau: And of the $231 million, how much is owed to Ontario and what is the breakdown for the other provinces?

Mr. Tremblay: I don’t have the details for the other provinces, but for Ontario it’s $228 million of the $231 million. So it’s the difference.

Senator Moreau: So that is Ontario’s share?

Mr. Tremblay: Yes, that’s right.

Senator Moreau: For the other provinces, the money has been reimbursed in full?

Mr. Tremblay: No, it’s 231 minus 228, so there is $3 million for all the other provinces and territories.

Senator Moreau: So the money has been spent.

Mr. Tremblay: Yes.

Senator Moreau: I have a question for Veterans Affairs. Regarding the 80th anniversary of D-Day, the Battle of Normandy, my father was one of the aviators who took part in the Battle of Normandy with his brother. So I wondered... It seems to me that $4 million is not a lot.

What was the total amount invested to celebrate the 80th anniversary of D-Day? We know that out of the veterans of D‑Day, there are about ten left in Canada who are still living.

Mr. Tessier: Thank you for the question.

We spent approximately $4 million. I had the honour of being present with our Second World War veterans; there were about 13 of us. There were several events.

France definitely helped a lot as well with the associated events and we were given a very warm welcome. The villages around the Juno Beach Centre organized several ceremonies for our veterans.

The amount that was granted was sufficient to pay for the Juno Centre ceremony and also for the days on either side of that event, which were very full.

Senator Moreau: So the $4 million, I am to understand that this was the total amount, because the 80th anniversary is something you can see coming from way off. Nothing was provided in the main estimates for commemorating the 80th anniversary of the Normandy landing?

Mr. Tessier: That’s right. We have a budget that we use during the year for all our commemorative events. For the big events, however, the ones we put more into, we request increases in our remembrance budget.

The same applies for planning for next year. We have a ten‑year strategic plan for all our commemorative events. It varies a lot, depending on size and scope and also on the number of people who are part of the delegation.

Senator Moreau: So commemorating an 80th anniversary calls for a bit more planning than to slip it into a supplementary estimate. Do you agree?

Mr. Tessier: We can always do more with more money, obviously.

The Chair: I think that what Senator Moreau means is that the government had known for at least ten years that there would be an 80th anniversary. So why is this in the supplementary estimates rather than in the main estimates?

Mr. Tessier: The funds were announced in Budget 2024, so we acted on that.

Senator Moreau: Thank you.

[English]

Senator Ross: My question this evening is for Ms. Manseau. You have requested $36 million for Canada’s modern, digital and data-driven migration system and $8.3 million for the Global Case Management System. Back in June, you talked to us about tranche 1, and the Supplementary Estimates (A) were for tranche 2, which is the back-end processing.

Tell me what the $36 million and the $8.3 million are specifically for. Where are we in the process? What’s been done and what’s ahead? It was a $910-million program over five years, launched in 2021.

Ms. Manseau: The $36 million and the $8.3 million are budgets that we had requested last fiscal year and, due to the timing of expenditures, were not spent. They are put forward into this fiscal year’s budget to continue with the implementation of the Digital Platform Modernization program.

For some of the most recent deliverables, I remember the question from last time. I had given you a list of achievements. I can highlight that the launch of the online passport renewal services for adult renewals occurred this week. That was a great achievement.

Senator Ross: I was going to ask you about that. That’s great.

Ms. Manseau: Actually, it was yesterday. In the summer of 2025, we’re still planning to implement the platform to modernize the client support service delivery model where client inquiries will be managed more efficiently across all the channels. Also, for mid-year next year, we’re planning to issue and verify digital travel and immigration documents for temporary residents.

Some of the plans that I had mentioned at the last committee meeting are still on track, and this funding would be for the implementation of those tranches.

Senator Ross: Excellent. So the online passport renewal was launched yesterday. You just mentioned the digital travel and immigration documents for visas and that platform. Back in September, you said that will happen early in 2025. Did I just hear you say it’s not early in 2025 now?

Ms. Manseau: It will be mid-year 2025.

Senator Ross: In the Supplementary Estimates (B), it’s just a move forward?

Ms. Manseau: It’s to continue implementation of those projects.

Senator Ross: Thank you.

Senator Pate: Thank you to our witnesses. My first question is for you, Mr. Tessier, and then I have one for Ms. Manseau if we have time.

In the Supplementary Estimates (B), Veterans Affairs Canada requests $942.5 million for demand-driven programs and services which provide support to eligible veterans and their families. I’m curious as to how Veterans Affairs Canada evaluates and projects the demand for its demand-driven programs and services to ensure timely and adequate funding. What factors influence the need for this additional $942.5 million requested in the Supplementary Estimates (B) for the upcoming year?

I note that one point was the higher-than-expected number of veterans opting for lump sum payments, instead of monthly payments. That still seems like an awful lot of money for Veterans Affairs. What other factors were involved?

Mr. Tessier: Thank you for the question. Numerous factors are involved, and I’ll try to walk through those pieces.

We forecast our estimates, obviously, by looking at previous years and previous forecasts. We always look and increase based on previous years and adjust our quasi-statutory funding and the demand.

This year, for that amount, we’ve seen a significant impact — not just an increase in applications but also an increase in the lump sums, as you noted. In the past, the lump sum payments were normally around 60% for veterans receiving their benefits. This year, we’re closer to 70%. Instead of issuing monthly payments for the rest of the month, for the fiscal year, we’re actually disbursing lump sum payments to veterans in that manner.

That talks about the increase in disability pieces, but it also increases income benefits and also our supports. Once a veteran receives a favourable decision, they also have access to certain benefits, which are included in the $942 million. We continue to monitor that and work through that piece.

When veterans receive their decisions, they have a choice of whether to take the payments monthly or a lump sum payment.

Senator Pate: I’m also curious about the adjustment for the miscalculation this past year, either because of a human error or clerical error or perhaps a worse situation. There were a number of lump sum payments. Is that included in this, or is that something in addition?

Mr. Tessier: That is something separate. You’re referring, I believe, to the Manuge settlement, which was settled for $817 million. We’ve actually started paying out those settlements, and they are well on their way. Thus far, there are 367 total members in the class, with 119 veterans that we know of who are our clients, and we know there are 248,000 estates. To date, 91,000 veterans and members of the RCMP have received their settlement payments for $352 million. So we’re well on our way.

Senator Pate: Ms. Manseau, thank you very much for the response that you and your colleagues provided in writing to the questions I asked IRCC at committee earlier this fall. I had asked the department why its policy allowing former children in the care of the state to apply for residency was only a temporary measure. I found your response very helpful, and it was that these measures were meant to be interim solutions to support vulnerable individuals at risk of removal by regularizing their status and facilitating permanent residence as soon as possible while Bill S-235 continues through the parliamentary process and a more permanent solution is established.

Is it fair to conclude from this response that you’ve been directed and the government has indicated support for Bill S-235? For those who may be listening, it’s a bill that originated in the Senate, introduced by our former colleague senator Mobina Jaffer, and it is now at first reading in the House of Commons.

Ms. Manseau: I’ll ask my colleagues to provide an answer.

Pemi Gill, Assistant Deputy Minister, Service Delivery, Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada: Thank you, senator, for the question. At this time, the department continues to examine the bill as it is written right now and is exploring the options associated with it. The temporary measures that were put in place ensure that minors have a pathway toward permanent residence and, from there, onward to citizenship; whereas, Bill S-235 is proposing actions related directly to citizenship.

Senator Pate: But you would agree that the way this is worded, it sounds like there is support for Bill S-235 and that it’s only a temporary measure because Bill S-235 is in the works?

Ms. Gill: It’s a temporary measure that will progress until such time as Parliament makes a decision with regard to Bill S-235. While we say it’s temporary, it does not have a fixed end date. It is in place to ensure there is a pathway for minors who were previously in care. While it’s a temporary measure — perhaps that’s the wording that is a little erroneous — it’s a measure that has been put in place that allows those individuals to apply for permanent residence and then move onward to apply for citizenship.

Senator Pate: If it’s not Bill S-235, could you send what is the permanent pathway in writing?

The Chair: Thank you, senator.

Senator Galvez: My first question is to Mr. Tremblay. There is a lot of construction and a lot of funds directed to building housing that we’re missing. I’m very much interested in the quality of the houses and the buildings that are being built. We all know that the building code in Canada needs updating. Construction is not necessarily taking into consideration the heat problems, humidity problems, resistance to flooding or energy efficiency.

What types of key performance indicators do you use in order to ensure that this massive housing that we are constructing is going to be good for the next 40 or 50 years?

Mr. Tremblay: Thank you for the question. Canada does have the National Building Code, and provinces and territories then have their own codes.

In terms of what we are delivering as part of the National Housing Strategy, all of our programs are requiring that the building be up to code, whatever the provincial code is. Some of our programs also reward better energy efficiency, exceeding the code, and also meeting and exceeding accessibility as well.

We are very much aware of the need to be resilient. A lot of the programs also encourage the repair of the older stock of housing as well to ensure that we don’t lose stock and that we make it resilient for years to come.

Senator Galvez: Like Senator Forest, I live along the shores of the St. Lawrence. We have seen massive construction of buildings in this area. Are they taking into consideration that they are already flooding areas and they are a flood risk?

Mr. Tremblay: Thank you for the question. I can’t answer specifically to that region. I assume municipalities —

Senator Galvez: In general, along the Great Lakes or along any river in B.C., flooding is now a very high-risk problem.

Mr. Tremblay: I totally agree with the senator. The government is looking at a flood reinsurance program as well, which they are working on, and setting up a company that would offer flood reinsurance. They also have a disaster recovery fund. Now it’s up to municipalities also to ensure that they don’t offer building permits in these areas as well. That’s a municipal jurisdiction and provincial jurisdiction, but we are working with the provinces and territories in terms of what is being built and where.

Senator Galvez: My other question is to Ms. Manseau. Thanks for being with us this evening.

There are a lot of asylum seekers. In the last year, this number has increased a lot. It used to be that there were asylum seekers because there was persecution and terrorism in their countries. Now the reasons why they seek asylum have changed.

What is the proportion of people coming because of violence in their country and people coming because of climate change or extreme weather events? I know, for example, people are coming from Honduras since they cannot stay there anymore because it’s impossible to live in the areas where they used to live due to erosion and extreme weather events.

Ms. Manseau: Thank you for the question.

Ms. Park: Thank you for the question. We wouldn’t be able to speculate on the reasons people seek asylum, because each claim is assessed on its individual merits. Actually, the decision related to an asylum claim is made by an independent tribunal, as you know, which is the Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada. We would have to check with them in terms of the data that they keep on the reasons.

Senator Galvez: You don’t do the statistics?

Ms. Park: We don’t have that data.

Senator Galvez: You don’t have that data.

Senator Loffreda: Thank you for being here this evening. My question is for CMHC, and it is on the newly created Department of Housing, Infrastructure and Communities Canada. This new department was created earlier this year with the passage of Bill C-59, the Fall Economic Statement Implementation Act, 2023.

According to the department’s website, CMHC is one of the portfolio managers working to deliver important housing projects for Canadians, which are much needed. Could you speak to us about that collaboration? How are things working out so far? I realize it’s early, but are you seeing some positive results, any cost savings, red tape reduction that we can expect or growth in housing starts? For the targets that are being set, are they aggressive enough to meet the substantial need for new housing?

Mr. Tremblay: Thank you for the question. The relationship, as you say, is fairly new. I think it’s going very well. We are working well with our portfolio department. They have more access to all the sister departments in the federal government than a Crown corporation would. That’s one of the advantages we’re seeing. They are also benefiting from the expertise we have from our mortgage loan insurance business and our housing market insights. That’s working well.

In terms of efficiency and programming, I think for the National Housing Strategy, which we report on quarterly through the A Place to Call Home website, you see the outcomes and the targets that we had and how we’re achieving it. That’s been happening on a quarterly basis for a number of years since the National Housing Strategy. We can point to those results.

As I said in my opening remarks, we have created a lot of new units and repairs. We foresee this relationship would only build on that.

Senator Loffreda: You’re satisfied with how things are progressing so far.

Mr. Tremblay: We are.

Senator Loffreda: Cutting through the red tape and getting the municipalities to do what they are supposed to be doing.

Mr. Tremblay: I’m not going to specify. I’m just the CFO. I’m not going to specify in terms of the relationship with municipalities. From what I hear, things are going well.

Senator Loffreda: Things are going well. So things will get better. Thank you for that answer.

[Translation]

The Chair: I have a question for the representative of CMHC. You had a rule that seems not to have been applied when a housing project or apartment complex had got to a stable stage, so if more than 95% of the units were rented, and if the project could be financed by CMHC. The project had to be initiated by CMHC.

I am told that this rule was not applied, but one day, you decided to apply it, and that created problems. Could you tell us more about this? Some investment fund representatives have spoken to me about this and told me that this did considerable damage to housing construction. The units could not be transferred to CMHC because the investment funds had initiated the projects without CMHC certification. I don’t know whether I’m being clear.

Mr. Tremblay: It’s clear, but I don’t know whether you are talking about projects under the National Housing Strategy or about insurance.

The Chair: It’s about housing.

Mr. Tremblay: I’m not familiar with that rule, but we can get back to you with an answer.

The Chair: Can you tell us whether that rule has stopped being applied or has been eliminated? I was talking about billion-dollar rolling funds for projects in development when financing with CMHC is stabilized, but that rule froze quite a few projects and the financiers didn’t go ahead because they didn’t have a guarantee that CMHC would take over.

Mr. Tremblay: Right. We will get back to you.

The Chair: Forgive me, Senator Loffreda.

Senator Loffreda: Not at all. Those are excellent questions.

[English]

My second question is for Veterans Affairs Canada. In the Canadian Armed Forces, attraction and retention is an issue. It’s very important. My question is about education and awareness. I strongly believe in the need to honour and celebrate Canada’s rich military and peacekeeping history. You have mentioned budget allocations in these supplementary estimates. I was happy to note in your departmental plan that the number of Canadians who indicate having made an effort to appreciate veterans and those who died in service increased from 71% in 2020-21 to 88% in 2022-23. That’s great news. I think we have to increase the pride we have in veterans and our Armed Forces. I’m for the amounts that you are requesting.

Beyond Remembrance Day activities, what other educational initiatives is Veterans Affairs Canada engaged in that contributes to Canada’s overall sense of pride in our Armed Forces and veterans? Maybe you can elaborate on that. I was happy to note that your budget for commemoration has increased from $38 million to $55 million in the last three years. That is a positive.

Mr. Tessier: I’ll comment on both aspects, senator. Thank you for the question. There are a number of items that we do. One I mentioned is the 10-year strategic plan that we have online, which we continue to update as we work with veterans and stakeholder organizations. We always listen to how we can better commemorate not only World War II and Korean War veterans, but also modern-day veterans, as we call them.

Commemoration has a specific impact on the wellness of veterans as well. It’s extremely important that we keep that in mind. I mentioned D-Day in June; there was also Cyprus in November. We had a veterans summit in March 2024. We had over 100 veterans at that session and a number were online. We had a forum for women veterans specifically in March 2024 as well. We had a forum with 2SLGBTQI+ veterans in August 2024.

We’re currently working on the eightieth anniversary of the liberation of the Netherlands and Victory in Europe Day in May 2025. When we start looking into the future, we have the Invictus Games in 2025 in Vancouver. We also have a women’s forum that is now scheduled for March 2025 as a follow-up. We continue to work with veteran organizations and seek feedback through different means. Let’s Talk Veterans has become very popular. It is one of our platforms to seek input about how we can better commemorate and prepare for not only Veterans Day but also Veterans’ Week and the lead-up.

I’ll build off that by saying we also work with schools across Canada in providing training material and different materials so that those discussions can happen in schools across Canada to learn about what happened in the world wars, including into the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s into today. We take that very seriously. I have the honour of attending many ceremonies throughout the year, and the one that really marked me was when I went to Vancouver and got to attend a ceremony with six schools — all children — and it was great to see their enthusiasm for wanting to contribute and recognize our Canadian soldiers.

Senator Loffreda: I can say that we have a stellar reputation. Last year, we did the Walk for Remembrance and Peace in Italy to commemorate the 80-year anniversary. We were received like heroes. On a personal initiative, it was really heartwarming. Keep up the great work.

Mr. Tessier: Thank you.

Senator MacAdam: My question is for Veterans Affairs. The Supplementary Estimates (B) request appropriations of $819 million for Pain and Suffering Compensation, which represents an increase of over 50% compared to the estimates to date. I’m just wondering if you can comment on why there has been such a sharp rise in these claims in such a short time.

Mr. Tessier: Thank you for the question. It’s very important. One reason, as I mentioned, is the increase in the number of applications — 15,000 applications — that we did not foresee and an increase in that perspective. The amounts are also based on lump sums versus monthly payments. That makes a significant difference in the total amounts we need to pay out this year versus over the next 30 years to a veteran. That’s a significant difference.

It also means that as more veterans apply and are successful, they have access to a range of other benefits. I know that doesn’t touch beyond the $819 million, but it has a ripple effect in the organization for the right reason.

We continue to offer a number of other services like rehab and vocational services. If veterans are not able to return to work as they go through that program, they get what we call the Income Replacement Benefit, which is 90% of their salary when they release from the military. That gives them financial security while they go through those programs.

Senator MacAdam: Following up on the lump sum versus monthly payments, I’m wondering what support or guidance Veterans Affairs provides to veterans who may face difficulties in terms of financial literacy and trying to choose whether to do a lump sum or monthly payments. How does Veterans Affairs ensure that they can make an informed decision? What kind of support do you provide?

Mr. Tessier: That’s a great question. There are two aspects. First, we have campaigns for information and financial literacy as a general mechanism that we do to promote awareness, not just around payments but also to help veterans in their day-to-day budgeting. As they transition, there are a number of programs and services that they are able to access to help them with the day-to-day and how to set their budget and those types of pieces.

Also, when we provide the decision letter and the veteran has to make the choice between monthly payments or a lump sum, we provide $500, I believe, for the veteran to have a financial planner to have that discussion during that time. We do everything we can to give the resources to the veteran as they are making their decision to ensure it’s the most informed decision for them at the time.

Senator MacAdam: I was looking online at the programs and services. I noticed there is compensation for pain and suffering, but I saw there was another one for additional pain and suffering. Are there two separate programs?

Mr. Tessier: Right.

Senator MacAdam: Could you basically explain the difference?

Mr. Tessier: Thank you for the question. The way I would explain Pain and Suffering Compensation in plain terms is it’s for a basic disability, whether that’s mental health or physical. Additional Pain and Suffering Compensation was put in place for veterans who have extreme difficulties with barriers based on that disability to reintegrate into civilian life. It is contributing toward compensating for those extra barriers, whether it’s integrating into society, employment or with their families; it looks to compensate in a different way. Normally, the veterans who would receive those have more severe disabilities.

Senator MacAdam: Thank you.

Senator Kingston: My questions are for Mr. Tremblay. I’m going to focus on the Canada Community Housing Initiative and provincial and territorial initiatives, which received the biggest chunk of the request of almost $232 million. As I understand it, this initiative provides essential rental assistance for low-income households living in co-op housing and non-profit housing. It gives the difference between the housing charge or rent and what they can afford to pay based on their income. Co-op housing and non-profit organizations use this to operate as mixed-income, inclusive communities.

As far as your strategy is concerned, it’s 2023 to 2027, so we’re about halfway through now. I’m wondering if there has been an increase in the number of — I think of them as rent sups, and I could be wrong, because it’s a mix between federal and provincial funding. I think I heard you say that not all of the money was actually used or given to certain provinces because of outcomes. Can you explain how that program is going and what you have seen in terms of the need?

Mr. Tremblay: Thank you for the question. There are two things. There is the Canada Housing Benefit. Again, these are benefits that go directly to households. These are negotiated, and they were co-developed for each province and territory. Each province and territory made their choices as to whom the benefactors would be based on what they thought the most pressing needs were.

In terms of the Canada Community Housing Initiative, this is basically paid to the provinces, and they cost match. This is more to ensure — to your point — that they maintain the community and social housing that they have in their stock right now and also increase them. They could choose to increase them, maintain them, repair them and, first of all, make sure that the affordable housing stays in the stock for longer for Canada so that we don’t lose supply. Also, it’s to ensure the building is healthier, safer, more resilient and also more affordable for the tenant. They can keep the costs down as well because they get funding to do these repairs.

Senator Kingston: Has the number of those available units increased in the past two years? Are there more housing units available across Canada under this particular initiative?

Mr. Tremblay: I do not have the exact number with me, but we can get back to you. I know the target is a 55,000 housing increase across the country.

Senator Kingston: Is that between 2023-27?

Mr. Tremblay: It’s from the launch of the National Housing Strategy in 2017 all the way to 2027-28.

Senator Kingston: Would you mind providing that information of where you’re at in terms of how far you are toward the 55,000 units?

Mr. Tremblay: We can do that.

Senator Kingston: The non-profit organizations are looking toward the future, so I guess I’ll ask the question like this: Is it really a rolling program at this point? How do they look forward in terms of refinancing repairs that they know are coming in the future, renewal or even development? Regarding this program — which you now talk about in your plans as 2023-27 — are you planning on keeping this going? Is this program working well enough, and are you planning on continuing it?

Mr. Tremblay: Thank you for the question. That’s not the decision of CMHC. Currently, the financing for most of the National Housing Strategy programs ends in 2027-28. There are a few that have been extended to 2031-32. Currently, most of them would stop in 2027-28.

Senator Kingston: They are right to be a little concerned about what is happening in the future in terms of their housing stock and how to maintain it?

Mr. Tremblay: What I can say to that is right now the funding is until 2027-28.

[Translation]

The Chair: My question is for you, Mr. Tremblay.

In the 2023 federal budget, you asked for $12.5 million dollars for the Apartment Construction Loan Program; of that amount, $10,768,417 was for the Apartment Construction Loan Program in the 2023 federal budget. When we look at the 2023 federal budget or the economic statements, they talk about $25 billion — and $15 billion in 2024. You are asking for $12.5 million or $10 million in additional funds. Are we talking about the same thing, the same programs?

Mr. Tremblay: Yes, Mr. Chair. To add a clarification, this is a loan program. When we talk about $15 billion, that is the loan amount. In the operating budgets, these are program administration expenses and interest expenses. CMHC borrows from the federal government through our corporate plan, and then we lend the money, so we have to pay interest and we administer the program. These are the expenses shown in the expenditure reports. The loan and the capital budget are obtained through our corporate plan.

The Chair: What is the corporate plan?

Mr. Tremblay: It is the equivalent of the departments’ corporate plans. Every year, we go to Treasury Board to get our corporate plan approved, and this gives us our operating budget, our capital budget, and our borrowing plan.

The Chair: Which comes from the government, the Bank of Canada, or the banks? Where does it come from?

Mr. Tremblay: We borrow the $15 billion from the federal government. We can do it at prime rate because our capacity to borrow from the government is obviously at a lower rate than they could get from a financial institution.

The Chair: The Bank of Canada announced a half-point reduction in the prime rate. What interest rate could a developer borrow from CMHC at? What is the best rate a developer could get right now, through CMHC, for a 25-year loan?

Mr. Tremblay: Essentially, it would be the rate at which the government borrows. That is the rate we borrow at, plus a margin of about 20 points more.

The Chair: More? So how much would it be?

Mr. Tremblay: I don’t know, with the new announcement this morning. Every month, we borrow so we can make these loans.

The Chair: To do the calculation, you have to use the prime rate and add or subtract a certain percentage?

Mr. Tremblay: The result will be considerably lower than the rate they would be able to obtain from a financial institution.

The Chair: What would the rate be today?

Mr. Tremblay: For the last rates before the drop this morning, we were lending at about 3% or a bit more.

The Chair: So developers borrow at about 3% when they deal with CMHC?

Mr. Tremblay: Exactly.

The Chair: So that is an extremely attractive rate.

Mr. Tremblay: Very attractive.

The Chair: My other question is for Ms. Manseau.

You are asking for an additional $3 million, approximately, for a biometric system. The RCMP is also asking for $1 million for an identical project. This is a joint project between the RCMP and Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada. Can you explain what your role and the RCMP’s role are in the program? Why are you seeking nearly $5 million, when a little over $14 million was provided in the budget? Will this project cost more than the amount provided in the budget, or is this one piece of it to be used for implementing it?

Ms. Manseau: In the Supplementary Estimates (B), we are seeking $3.7 million to implement certain adjustments we have to make to the act.

I am going to ask my colleague, Ms. Gill, whether she can give you more information today. If not, we will get back to you with a more precise answer.

[English]

Ms. Gill: This particular request for $3.4 million is to support the implementation of biometrics for the citizenship program. Today, for clients who are applying for citizenship, we do a name check with the RCMP as part of the screening of all the citizenship applications. What we are looking to do is adopt biometric enrolment for citizenship.

The way this works is if the client is applying for citizenship and if biometrics were already collected as part of the immigration application, we would not recollect biometrics. However, if they have not previously been collected or if they were not renewed in the last 10 years, the client’s biometrics would be taken as part of the citizenship application. Those are then sent over to the RCMP to check against their system.

We already have the biometric infrastructure in place for our immigration programs. What we are looking to do with this project is expand the usage for citizenship.

[Translation]

The Chair: Has the $14 million in Budget 2023 been spent? Is the $3.5 million one piece of the $14 million?

Ms. Manseau: We will have to verify what was requested in Budget 2023. We will get back to you with the breakdown when the budgets have been requested.

I don’t have those details with me, but I anticipate that the funds in Budget 2023 were requested in the 2023-24 fiscal year.

The Chair: Would they have been spent?

Ms. Manseau: Yes, but I will get back to you with confirmation.

Senator Forest: Mr. Tremblay, does the $15 billion represent your current loan portfolio?

Mr. Tremblay: That is the increase announced in Budget 2024. In total, the Apartment Construction Loan Program is a $55 billion loan program at present.

Senator Forest: So you have a $55 billion portfolio; if the projects get done, that could be increased by $15 billion?

Mr. Tremblay: No, the program is for $55 billion and we have already committed $21 billion. So there is $34 billion left; this is one of the programs that has been extended to 2032-33, it seems to me.

Senator Forest: CMHC is a very effective partner for creating affordable housing, particularly for municipalities and not-for-profit organizations. At present, there are calls for a national affordable housing program to be created, given the homelessness situation. Is your government looking into that, or is not on the radar at all?

Mr. Tremblay: In the National Housing Strategy, the newly created agency, Housing, Infrastructure and Communities Canada (HICC), is the one that already has a program for homelessness. It’s called Reaching Home; there is $2.1 billion exclusively for homelessness for the period of the national strategy, up to 2027-28.

Senator Forest: I have a question about biometric recognition and the RCMP in Canada, which is a G7 country. I arrived in Oslo, Norway, in 2016, and you could walk around in the airport; we were worried because we wondered whether someone was going to cine and arrest us, because there were no checkpoints and you just went in as if you were at home, but we worried. Are performance tests being done, or is it being modeled on the technology, which must have changed a lot in eight years?

[English]

Ms. Gill: Thank you for the question. If I could ask for a clarification, is it with regard to the collection of biometrics like photo and fingerprints or with regard to travel?

[Translation]

Senator Forest: It’s with regard to biometric recognition using the systems, when you are at customs or the airport.

[English]

Ms. Gill: I can’t speak to Customs. However, for immigration purposes, we do have information-sharing agreements with like‑minded countries, including the U.S., Australia, New Zealand and others. It is systematically done. At the time an application is submitted for immigration, biometrics are collected, and that is checked against international databases. That is fully automated systematically.

[Translation]

Senator Forest: Mr. Tessier, the appropriation includes $250,000 to support the Juno Beach Centre. I actually had the opportunity to go there in 2023. It was quite moving to see how much the French recognize Canadians’ contribution to the liberation, particularly in that area. Is the $250,000 a one-time amount or is it an annualized amount that is Canada’s contribution to keeping the duty to remember alive?

Mr. Tessier: It is an annualized amount, which means that every year, the Juno Beach Centre has the funds it needs to cover operations and maintain the building and to commemorate our Canadians for many more years.

Senator Forest: Thank you.

[English]

Senator Smith: Ms. Manseau, I have just a quick follow-up question to the one I asked earlier: Is there an anticipation of increases in asylum cases in light of the incoming administration in the United States? Mr. Trump has talked big time about what we need to be doing with our border activities.

What contingency plans are in place to address potential surges in demand for housing, health care and integration if we have an increase in asylum because of what’s going on in the United States with the new government? Have you guys had a chance to look at that, or is it going to be worked on?

Ms. Manseau: Thank you for the question.

Ms. Park: We have a long-standing relationship with our U.S. counterparts, and we will work with the incoming administration. It’s difficult to speculate about exactly what will happen. We’ve taken steps already, as you know. In March 2023, we closed one of the issues that was causing the increase in irregular migration. Since we’ve done that, we’ve gone from 165 irregular crossings a day to 12 a day. Measures like that mean that we’re in a much better position in order to deal with increases in asylum claims.

Senator Smith: Will action be taken depending on what happens with Mr. Trump saying he’s going to deport X number of people? If there’s an overflow coming into Canada, you will have to address it. I’m just wondering if anything has been thought of in terms of what we will do. Is there any planning going into place now, or is that to be done later?

Ms. Park: We work with our border partners such as the Canada Border Services Agency, or CBSA, and the RCMP. We deal with border crossings every day. It’s just a matter of ensuring that all of those plans are in place.

Senator Smith: The only problem you might have is depending on the volume of the flow, right?

Ms. Park: However, we do have the Safe Third Country Agreement in place. That means that if people are coming in from the U.S., since the U.S. has been identified as a safe third, if they come in through our port of entry, then they would be returned to the U.S. and vice versa. It is a mutually beneficial agreement for Canada and the U.S. in terms of shared border management.

Senator Smith: If I could go to Veterans Affairs, Mr. Tessier, your 2024-25 Departmental Plan acknowledges alignment with the Budget 2023 refocusing government spending initiatives. Your department is seeking to conclude temporary investments in disability benefits processing and case management services by 2026-27 despite the increasing demand for these services.

How does Veterans Affairs Canada plan to manage the phased spending reductions mandated by Budget 2023 initiatives while ensuring continuity and quality in service delivery for veterans, particularly in critical areas such as disability benefits and case management?

Mr. Tessier: Thank you for the question. Budget 2023 identified measures to reduce the scale of growth in government spending. Obviously, it’s a government-wide initiative over the next several years. For Veterans Affairs, there will be no reduction in funding for veteran programs and services.

The principles we’ve used are ensuring that front-line staff and services to veterans aren’t affected. We continue to ensure that veterans and their families receive the benefits that they apply for and should have. In terms of principles, we have looked at targeted professional services, travel and any discretionary spending inside the department.

Senator Smith: How will Veterans Affairs Canada ensure the temporary progress made in reducing backlogs and improving case management does not regress once the investments conclude in terms of the reductions?

Mr. Tessier: I’ll go on to a follow-on question.

Budget 2023 identified a number of temporary resources specifically around the adjudication of benefits until 2026, which was $164.4 million. That was to retain a number of our temporary resources to ensure that we have processing of disability benefit applications and to ensure that our case management services are in place until 2027.

We continue to leverage those temporary funds. We are maintaining or are close to our service standard, even though we continue to see a rise in costs.

Senator Smith: I won’t say you’re keeping a sort of slush fund, but you’re keeping extra money available. As you go forward in managing the different cases, you can make adjustments. Is that correct?

Mr. Tessier: They’re temporary funds. We’re leveraging all funds to ensure we have staff for which we are leveraged. We’ve also made investments in automation inside the department. One good example is file sharing with health care professionals. We can speed up the process so that they’re able to transmit health information from veterans when they do their applications. That speeds up the process; hence, we’re able to get to more applications that way. We’re trying to use automation as best as we can.

Senator Smith: You have measurement systems to exactly track the outcomes?

Mr. Tessier: Correct.

Senator Kingston: To Mr. Tremblay again and following on the same sort of questioning, this time I’m wondering about the Canada rental protection fund. It was committed to in the budget. I don’t see it anywhere in the Supplementary Estimates (B) in terms of an actual line. Where is that fund? Is it active?

Mr. Tremblay: Thank you for the question. No, the fund has not been launched yet. We’re still going through the process of getting policy and financial authorities. It’s still in the works. This is led by our portfolio department as well, and we’re supporting them in that.

Senator Kingston: Since it was in this federal budget, when do you expect the fund to start rolling out?

Mr. Tremblay: It’s expected to start sometime in 2025.

Senator Kingston: In this fiscal year, though?

Mr. Tremblay: I would say probably in the following fiscal year. That’s my best guess right now.

Senator Kingston: You talked about the 55,000 units, and I asked you to provide some kind of history about those units and where we’re at now. Could you do that by province as well, please?

Mr. Tremblay: Yes, we will. Each province submits an action plan. That’s how it’s being reported.

Senator Kingston: Thank you.

Senator Ross: My question is for Mr. Tessier. Back in the spring, when Veterans Affairs Canada was here to talk about the Supplementary Estimates (A) and the Main Estimates, I asked specifically about women veterans and how they access benefits differently and how service impacts them differently.

At that time, your colleagues Mr. Freeman and Ms. Lantz said that work and research was being done to understand the variation in needs. But I’m interested in a breakdown of the funding of $942 million in the Supplementary Estimates (B). It says it’s for demand-driven programs and services which provide support to eligible veterans and their families. Could you give me a sense of the gender breakdown of those programs and the predicted usage of those programs?

Also, I’m from New Brunswick, so I’m interested in knowing if there’s a French-English breakdown of those services as well.

Mr. Tessier: Thank you for the question. There are two aspects I would touch on. I don’t have the split within the specific programs here, but we can definitely provide that in writing.

I will highlight that we do track the time it takes to process women veterans’ applications, and we compare that to male veterans because we realized a number of years ago that women veterans’ applications are taking longer. The conditions are different; they’re complex.

Veterans Affairs formed a unit to specifically adjudicate and review women veterans’ files. The timeline for that is 19.5 weeks above the service standard, which is 80% within 16 weeks.

Male veterans’ tracking is actually 19.4 weeks, so it’s very close. We’ve been able to bring that in line, and we keep that unit there to ensure that we continue to learn and improve the way compensation and benefits are given to women veterans.

Around francophones, I will use the same metrics. For anglophones, the average is 19.5 weeks above our service standard; for francophones, it’s 19.1 weeks. We’ve been able to bring that down as well. We had a significant disparity a number of years ago, so we have put a lot of effort there.

Senator Ross: In the spring of this year, a forum was held with much discussion around the complex needs of women veterans. It was reported to be loud and clear that their needs were different.

I know the minister recently launched the Women Veterans Council. Was that in response to the forum? How is that launch rolling out? What is the expectation or the goal of having this council?

Mr. Tessier: Thank you for the question. The council members were recently named. Applications were received throughout the summer. A panel of veterans and departmental officials sat on that panel to review nominations. The council is made up of still-serving members and retired women veterans. The council is there to advise the minister on things like health research and how we can best meet those unique needs and continue to improve.

Senator Ross: I noticed the council appointments were only for one year. Here at the Senate, we’re all here for a long time. How much traction can someone get in a group like that in a year when they’re also doing full-time jobs or perhaps retired and meeting only every quarter or something? What are the expectations for only one-year appointments?

Mr. Tessier: Thank you for the question. My answer is based on a number of advisory committees that we have for the minister, for example on families and policies. Most of those committees are formed for a year or two, and they meet quarterly or three times a year.

In my experience during my two and a half years at the department, most committee members tend to either stay on or, because of other obligations, opt out after a year or two. We do expect to see a bit of attrition through the council; however, we really look forward to working with the council in their new mandate.

Senator Ross: So the one-year appointments are renewable? People could stay on for longer?

Mr. Tessier: Correct. It’s a new council, so there will be a lot of experimentation in the first year to understand how the council can best support the minister.

Senator Ross: Did you say the council members were nominated, or did they apply?

Mr. Tessier: My understanding from the process is that women veterans were encouraged to apply.

Senator Ross: Thank you very much.

Senator Pate: Again, I want to say to Ms. Manseau that I appreciate the data that the department provided.

With respect to the permanent residence policy as well as the temporary residence policy for former children in care, both programs are now about a year old. In that time, your data shows there have been 11 applications for temporary resident permits. Three are approved, and the remaining are in progress. All 11 permanent resident applications are in progress. These numbers seem low given that in 2023-24, child services in the Peel Region of Ontario alone reported working with more than 400 children in care who are not Canadian citizens.

The department’s written response indicates:

. . . coding in the Global Case Management System . . . IRCC’s system used to process immigration applications. . . . enables IRCC to track, monitor, and report on these cases and . . . . Data from these coded cases can help assess whether the policies are effective in preventing removals and supporting the intended individuals.

Based on this data, how many people does the department estimate would fall under the category of individuals potentially eligible to apply for these programs? Can you please provide more details about what steps the department is taking to determine the programs’ success, and particularly whether they are effectively reaching folks at risk of deportation?

Also, your written response indicates that you’ve been in touch with stakeholders, including the Black Legal Action Centre and the Canadian Association of Refugee Lawyers, to disseminate information about these programs across their networks. I’m curious what these stakeholders indicate are key gaps in outreach and the barriers to people being able to access these programs, given the low numbers.

Ms. Manseau: Thank you for the question. I’ll turn to my colleague.

Ms. Gill: Thank you. With regard to the statistics, senator, I don’t have the response that you have in front of you. I believe that those — correct me if I’m wrong — are statistics from our case management system of clients who have applied under the public policy that is referred to as a temporary measure. Is that correct?

Senator Pate: There’s a temporary measure and permanent, yes.

Ms. Gill: That is a count of all the applications that we have. At the time that the application is received, it is inputted into the system, and the code is assigned right up front to ensure that we can identify the cohort. We don’t have other applications apart from the ones that are included in the reporting.

With regard to outreach and promotion of the pathways, there is information on our website that is available, but we fully recognize that minors who are either about to leave care or who have already left care would not necessarily know to check. Outreach has been done, as you referred, to certain stakeholder groups that work closely with potential clients who would be part of this cohort. In addition, the department has also done outreach with provinces and territories for the programs that help children as they’re leaving care to get the right documentation. That is where the efforts have been put in place to ensure that there is understanding of this pathway and the need for potential minors who are leaving care to apply at that time.

Senator Pate: The numbers seem incredibly low to me in terms of what’s being processed. Based on when your department appeared before the Social Affairs Committee on this very issue, there were estimates of far greater numbers. What do you attribute this to?

Ms. Gill: When we were at the Social Affairs Committee, we were talking about the potential of persons in Canada, whereas the numbers that you’re seeing now are for those who have come forward seeking to apply for permanent residence. Individuals may use other pathways. Any minor or adult who has exited care has access to permanent residence through economic streams and family class streams as well as potentially onto citizenship. Therefore, these minors would be ones who are coming forward most likely through engagement with the stakeholders and such, who are seeking access to the program.

Senator Pate: Is there any way to cross-reference to see how many have been in care who come through those other streams?

Ms. Gill: Unfortunately, no, because there’s no need for an individual to declare they were previously in care when they are applying for immigration under the other programs.

Senator Galvez: I have a quick question. There is $581 million to support asylum seekers in Quebec. Is this one sum, or will it reoccur next year? Is this something we also do for other provinces?

Ms. Manseau: The $581 million in the Supplementary Estimates (B) is a one-time payment. It is part of the agreement that was made with the Province of Quebec for a total of $750 million. That specific payment is only for the Province of Quebec. The other provinces would receive funding through the Interim Housing Assistance Program.

Senator Galvez: Is it of the same order?

Ms. Manseau: It’s based on expenditures that the provinces would submit for reimbursement.

Ms. Park: Just to clarify, the additional payment for Quebec this year is an exceptional payment, and it’s in recognition of the numbers that Quebec saw between the years 2021 and 2023. I spoke about the additional protocol that was introduced in March 2023, so it was in advance of that, and you would have heard about Roxham Road. There were many irregular crossers during that time, so Quebec had a larger share of asylum claimants during those years. That’s what the payment is for.

Senator Loffreda: My question this time around is for Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada. In these estimates, IRCC is seeking $18.4 million to address the partial visa imposition for Mexico, which was announced in February 2024. I understand the rationale behind this decision; it was because Mexican nationals represented the top source of asylum claims in Canada in 2023. I note in Budget 2024, this decision to adjust travel requirements for Mexican nationals is in response to an increase in asylum claims that are either refused, withdrawn or abandoned.

Have asylum claims from Mexico dropped since the announcement? How have you had to adjust your operations following this decision? Have you had to redistribute funding for staff to meet the current operational needs?

Obviously, this $18.4 million is not due to our current commitments to reinforce our borders. Will new resources be needed because of that?

Ms. Manseau: Thank you for the question. I can start by saying that the funding in the Supplementary Estimates (B) is to support processing for the visas. I’ll turn to my colleague to see if we can add to that.

Ms. Park: In terms of the impact of the partial visa imposition, it was introduced on February 29, 2024. Since that time, it dropped to 745 in March 2024, and to 575 in October 2024. It was approximately 2,000 claims per month before that.

Senator Loffreda: So it has dropped.

Ms. Park: It has dropped significantly since the visa imposition.

Senator Loffreda: So they’re aware.

With respect to our new commitments, is there any concern there with respect to resources? Do you feel that at the border, at this point in time, the resources are there to properly reinforce the promises we are making?

Ms. Park: I’m sorry; I’m not sure I understand the question.

Senator Loffreda: With respect to the new commitments for the new government coming in the U.S., they’re claiming that we have to reinforce our border. Do we have enough resources to do so? Do you see any expectations going forward with respect to requirements?

Ms. Park: The border is secure at this point. We’re monitoring very regularly, as I explained before. We have not necessarily seen any kind of change in terms of the volumes that we’re seeing. A lot of the tools that we’ve already put in place in terms of the additional protocol and, as you point out, the Mexican partial visa imposition have increased our capacity in the overall system.

Senator Loffreda: The capacity has increased, and it is secure.

Ms. Park: Exactly.

Senator Loffreda: Thank you.

Senator MacAdam: My question is for Mr. Tessier again. I’m wondering about the Veteran and Family Well-being Fund. Did I hear you say in your introductory remarks that this $2 million in the Supplementary Estimates (B) is in addition to the $3 million that already exists?

Mr. Tessier: That’s correct. It’s an increase of $2 million.

Senator MacAdam: Can you elaborate a bit on this program?

Mr. Tessier: Definitely, I can elaborate. The program started in 2018. Between 2018 and 2023, which was the last time we had a call-out to distribute funds, we awarded $42.6 million over that time frame for 123 projects. That’s focused on various veteran themes, including homelessness, mental health, military sexual trauma, Indigenous veterans, women, 2SLGBTQ veterans, families, transition in employment as well as research. A variety of projects have been funded over the last five years through that program. That varied nationally.

We have done a call-out in the spring for 2024 with the funds that we would receive, which is the $5 million. To date, we received 210 projects for a demand of over $150 million. You can see there is a significant demand for this program, and a portion of the additional $2 million will go to Indigenous veterans’ organizations, women veterans’ organizations and 2SLGBTQI+ organizations.

Senator MacAdam: Is this an unusual increase in the Supplementary Estimates (B)?

Mr. Tessier: No. There was an increase in the program of $50 million during the pandemic as well to continue to support all these veteran organizations that were on the ground supporting veterans during those difficult times. We have a base funding of $3 million a year, but given the demand that we have for the program, we continue to request additional funds because we see the benefits of the outcomes on the ground supporting veterans across the country. We recognize that Veterans Affairs can only do so much through our programs, and we rely on our partners across Canada.

[Translation]

The Chair: I have a question for the representatives of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada. You deal with refugee claimants. I would like to come back to the biometric control system. Are refugee claimants’ biometric measurements taken using the systems you have in your department, or is that done elsewhere? I saw an item in the news that said the Canada Border Services Agency is looking for 30,000 refugee claimants they have lost track of. Another news item said the Border Services Agency was considering using a biometric facial recognition application to identify and look for refugee claimants they have lost track of, who are in the wind, if I may put it that way. Do you use biometric measurements for facial recognition when people make a claim for refugee protection?

[English]

Ms. Gill: Thank you. Asylum claims are processed by both IRCC and CBSA. It’s CBSA at ports of entry and IRCC for those who claim within Canada. Both CBSA and IRCC collect biometrics — fingerprints and photo — from all asylum claimants. That is checked against both the RCMP databases and the database in Canada as well as with international partners.

With regard to the questions about CBSA using facial recognition technology for other purposes, I would not be able to speak to that. That is a question that would be best directed to CBSA.

[Translation]

The Chair: When you say you take a photo, we understand that it is a digital photo that can be used for digital facial recognition. It is not just an ordinary passport photo?

[English]

Ms. Gill: Correct.

[Translation]

The Chair: Thank you. My other question is for the representatives of Veterans Affairs Canada. We see in the news what some have called the monument of shame. You were probably expecting that question this evening.

To put everybody in the picture, a monument honouring heroes was erected, for which you paid $3 or $4 million. However, the net result is that a number of people, General Dallaire being one, have been identified on the monument as being deceased, when they aren’t, and people even appear on it who never wore the uniform. How could this happen?

Mr. Tessier: I would like to point out that Veterans Affairs Canada did not give the organization funds for the plaques that were installed. The funds we gave the organization were meant to be for planting trees along the route. It had nothing to do with the plaque itself.

The Chair: The plaque states that Veterans Affairs granted funding.

Mr. Tessier: I can confirm this evening that this is not the case. We did not confirm funds for the plaques.

The Chair: When the project is presented to you and you are presented with tree planting, you are funding a tree planting project? It seems to me there must be something more, for Veterans Affairs Canada to fund trees.

Mr. Tessier: We didn’t fund the monument at all. However, when we heard the news, we contacted the organization and got confirmation that the monuments will be removed as soon as possible.

The Chair: Let’s take an example. I tell you that I want to honour veterans by planting trees. Are you going to fund Claude Carignan, who wants to plant trees to honour veterans, without asking for any more details?

Mr. Tessier: It was for planting trees along the highway to honour our heroes. The organization has confirmed it: the funding did not come from Veterans Affairs Canada.

The Chair: Can we see the application the organization made for planting trees? It concerns me that Veterans Affairs Canada, which is supposed to fund monuments to honour veterans, is funding tree planting along the edge of a highway. I understand that you can tart it up later and say it is to honour veterans and it is on the Highway of Heroes. It seems to me that a grant application like that one is stretching things.

Mr. Tessier: I can provide the documents that were submitted for this project.

The Chair: Can we get a copy of the application, a copy of the acceptance, a copy of the correspondence, and the description of the program that was used to fund the tree planting?

Mr. Tessier: Certainly we can provide those documents. I would like to add that as soon as we heard that in the news, we took action, even though we had not funded the project, to represent veterans, as you described, to make sure that the monument or the plaque were was gone as fast as possible.

The Chair: Thank you. Are there any other questions?

[English]

Senator Kingston: I have a question, again, to Mr. Tremblay.

You said in your opening remarks that under the Housing Accelerator Fund, there had been 178 agreements. I’m wondering about the agreements in New Brunswick. Could you provide that information in writing?

Mr. Tremblay: Yes, we certainly can.

Senator Kingston: That would be great. Thank you very much.

Senator Loffreda: Veterans Affairs Canada, I see in these supplementary estimates that you have an amount that you’re seeking for advertising, and it’s $2 million. As I said previously, we want to show Canadians that they should be proud of our Armed Forces and our veterans. If I look at our neighbours to the south, for example, we would like to get there for recruitment and retention. Are you satisfied with the $2 million in advertising? Is there any way that you’re tracking it in terms of it being sufficient or not sufficient? I think communication is key, and great leaders are great communicators. What are your comments on that?

Mr. Tessier: Thank you for the question. In terms of the $2.75 million for government advertising, there are two areas, and those are funds that we seek from the centre. They have two purposes. One is for Veterans’ Week, promoting all the events that lead up to Veterans’ Week to ensure that veterans know about the commemorative events, but also to ensure that Canadians know about all the commemorative events and to ensure they are included in those events.

The second thing that it really supports is our mental health programs. They are extremely important. With the mental health benefits that we put in place in 2022, obviously there is a significant need in the veteran community for those types of benefits. A portion of that government advertising goes to mental health benefits, including our helpline and other benefits and services that we provide.

We can always use more funding, but we do what we can with the money we have. I believe that we continue to do great work around Veterans’ Week, and we continue to work really hard at supporting mental health for veterans, which is so important.

Senator Loffreda: You do great work. Thank you.

[Translation]

The Chair: That concludes our meeting for today. I thank all the witnesses. Regarding the undertakings, we would ask that you send them to us so we have them under the Christmas tree, so by December 23, which would give us time to wrap them.

Our next meeting will be next Tuesday, December 17, at 9:00 a.m. Thanks to everyone, the teams of interpreters, the analysts, and the clerk. See you on Tuesday.

(The committee adjourned.)

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