THE STANDING SENATE COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL AFFAIRS, SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY
EVIDENCE
OTTAWA, Thursday, September 21, 2023
The Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology met with videoconference this day at 11:30 a.m. [ET] to examine and report on such issues as may arise from time to time relating to social affairs, science and technology generally.
Senator Ratna Omidvar (Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Chair: Senators, I would like to begin by welcoming members of the committee, witnesses and members of the public watching our proceedings. My name is Ratna Omidvar, senator from Ontario, and I am the chair of this committee.
Before we begin, I’d like to have senators introduce themselves starting with my colleague, Senator Seidman.
Senator Seidman: Judith Seidman, Montreal, Quebec.
Senator Dasko: Donna Dasko, senator from Toronto.
[Translation]
Senator Mégie: Marie-Françoise Mégie, Montreal, Quebec.
[English]
Senator Osler: Flordeliz Gigi Osler, senator from Manitoba.
Senator Burey: Sharon Burey, senator from Ontario.
[Translation]
Senator Cormier: René Cormier, Caraquet, New Brunswick.
[English]
Senator Petten: Iris Petten, senator from Newfoundland and Labrador.
Senator Cordy: I’m Jane Cordy, I’m a senator from Nova Scotia. Welcome.
The Chair: Today, we continue our study on Canada’s temporary and migrant labour force. For the first panel, we welcome Angèle Losier, Executive Director of the Centre d’accueil et d’accompagnement francophone des immigrants du Sud-Est du Nouveau-Brunswick, or CAFi. Thank you for joining us today. You’ll have five minutes for your opening statements followed by questions from the floor. The floor is yours.
[Translation]
Angèle Losier, Executive Director, Centre d’accueil et d’accompagnement francophone des immigrants du Sud-Est du Nouveau-Brunswick: Madam Chair, members of the committee, ladies and gentlemen, hello and thank you for inviting me. I am very pleased to appear before your committee. On behalf of Marcel Goguen, the President of the Centre d’accueil et d’accompagnement francophone des immigrants du Sud-Est du Nouveau-Brunswick, we offer our ongoing political advocacy support for temporary foreign workers. Thank you for inviting us to appear today to discuss this important issue. I am Angèle Losier, Executive Director.
The Centre d’accueil et d’accompagnement francophone des immigrants du Sud-Est du Nouveau-Brunswick (CAFi) is a non‑profit organization founded in 2005. With 30 employees, its mission is to support the integration of francophone immigrants to New Brunswick. The Centre d’accueil et d’accompagnement francophone des immigrants du Sud-Est du Nouveau-Brunswick is committed to building bridges among the various cultures and plays a role in community cultural enrichment.
Our organization offers various programs to facilitate the complete social, cultural and economic integration of immigrants, including reception and settlement services, needs assessment, psychosocial services, employment integration programs, cultural programs, and various francization programs for adults and children. Through our reception and assistance services, we ensure that our clients have all the relevant information to settle and live in Canada.
Our organization has two main offices, in Dieppe, New Brunswick, and in the Cap-Acadie rural municipality. That office works primarily with temporary foreign workers from Mexico, Jamaica and the Philippines. We have helped approximately 186 temporary workers, or 25% of our clientele, which has also increased by 60% in the past year.
Our organization is primarily funded by Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada, which provides 55% of our funding, and by the provincial department of post-secondary education, training and labour, which provides the remaining 45%, for total funding of $2.5 million.
The Centre d’accueil et d’accompagnement francophone des immigrants du Sud-Est du Nouveau-Brunswick considers the recruitment of temporary foreign workers a viable economic development strategy for many regions and businesses. It can help fill labour shortages, support economic growth, and diversify our local population. Seafood processing is central to the economy of the Cap-Acadie and Shediac region of New Brunswick. Employers have a great need to recruit internationally, arguing that there is a labour crisis, along with a housing crisis. Businesses also need bilingual workers in our community.
In terms of temporary workers, we primarily recruit two types of workers. Some workers come alone for a contract, usually for nine months, return to their home country, and come back the following year. We also welcome individuals with their families, primarily single mothers, who have a closed work permit and will seek permanent residency.
I would like to briefly outline the challenges we face in our organization and with our clients. At this time, our remote communities do not have transportation or housing to welcome all of these newcomers. Settlement services such as the Centre d’accueil et d’accompagnement francophone des immigrants du Sud-Est du Nouveau-Brunswick have to deal with the fact that federal funding is for permanent residents only. Agencies are therefore limited in the services they can offer temporary workers.
One of the challenges we face in integrating our clients is the language barrier, even though we work hard to offer what we call conversation circles. Raluca Bejean is the co-author of a report by a research group from Dalhousie and Saint-Thomas universities and the Cooper Institute. Fifteen migrant workers from New Brunswick were interviewed as part of that study. Several of them said they felt like strangers and maintained they were treated differently as compared to local workers. Temporary workers facing such treatment cannot say anything or complain for fear of repercussions or losing their job. They are also afraid of not being chosen to return to Canada the following year. We have heard that they face racism and are paid less than Canadians; that employers do not always respect their contracts and sometimes give them fewer hours than planned, so they do not earn as much. Challenges were also identified with respect to transportation, access to child care, housing, and lack of social opportunities in rural areas.
Our organization has also met clients who said they paid a consultant in their home country, roughly $10,000 each, in order to obtain a closed work permit. Once they arrive here, no housing is available so the workers had to stay with their employer and sleep on the kitchen floor. The workers did not get any shifts so they did not earn any money. The employer then offered to send them to a different location where there was no transportation or housing. These clients ultimately submitted a request for vulnerable workers to obtain an open work permit instead.
We are also aware of a case in which twenty or so clients arrived from Mexico and were without work for four weeks. Some clients asked for information about food banks. Sometimes they have to work 60 hours per week, and then some weeks they do not work at all. The number of hours they can work depends on the seasonal nature of the fishery. The employers let them stay for nine months, even if they do not necessarily have any work. If some of them complain, the employer pays for their return ticket back home. They will probably not return for the next season.
These are some of the situations we have seen in our work, but not all of them.
In light of the challenges identified by our clients, the Centre d’accueil et d’accompagnement francophone des immigrants du Sud-Est du Nouveau-Brunswick would like to make some recommendations to support the rights and needs of temporary foreign workers, and those of the companies employing those workers. We would like to see cooperation among the federal, provincial and municipal levels of government, and with the settlement centres that welcome temporary foreign workers in order to uphold the rights of temporary foreign workers, directly address the workers’ complaints and ensure that workers’ rights and labour standards are always upheld. We would like to offer free language training to temporary foreign workers, given their working hours.
We would also like to increase intercultural skills training and the monitoring of businesses that recruit internationally, and give temporary workers the opportunity to make complaints without fear of repercussions, including legal assistance to inform them of their rights and responsibilities relating to immigration to their country of employment.
We would also like to be able to transfer work permits to another employer or another industry requiring workers for a specific period so as to terminate a contract and increase the powers of settlement centres, which are all non-profit organizations, so they can better help temporary foreign workers integrate socially and culturally. Finally, we would like to conclude bilateral recruitment agreements with certain countries in order to reduce the risk of fraud.
In conclusion, businesses in our region have to be creative and find strategies for transportation and housing and to meet the needs of temporary foreign workers. Certain businesses in our region have demonstrated exemplary practices and have developed expertise to offer temporary foreign workers some quality of life.
Our organization is available to support your committee, businesses and federal and provincial governments in this regard. Thank you for your attention.
[English]
The Chair: Thank you very much, Ms. Losier. We will open the floor to questions from my colleagues. I should tell you — you probably know this — that last week we were in your region, and we did meet with both employers and migrant workers. Some of the concerns and recommendations you have tabled are very much alive in our minds. So thank you for doing that.
Let me kick off with one very particular question I have, and hopefully you can satisfy my curiosity.
You mentioned that in some cases, temporary workers had to pay more than $10,000 — or close to $10,000 — to consultants. Have you done any surveys of workers in your region to confirm whether or not consultants are on the edge of the program or in the mainstream of the program?
[Translation]
Ms. Losier: I’m not sure I understand your question. You mentioned a survey, but I did not understand the rest of the question.
[English]
The Chair: I’m curious to know whether your organization has conducted a survey of temporary foreign workers and their interaction with immigration consultants, work consultants, et cetera, because there’s that one story about using consultants. Or is that part of the entire context?
[Translation]
Ms. Losier: Unfortunately, there have been a number of cases of clients who had to go through consultants abroad. They spent significant amounts of money, on a regular basis. We are aware of such cases. For example, there is a temporary worker in the Moncton area who did not come to work in the fishery. He spent a lot of money. When he landed in Montreal, he still did not know who his employer was and ultimately learned that he was going to New Brunswick. There was no transportation to New Brunswick. He had to contact someone he knew, and his friend went to get him. He eventually got to New Brunswick and is now in a temporary worker shelter in Moncton. Unfortunately, we see such cases on a regular basis at the CAFi.
[English]
Senator Cordy: Thank you very much for being with us. It’s important in our study that we hear from all regions of the country, and I’m from Nova Scotia, so I always love to have Atlantic Canadians before our committee.
I guess what I’m wondering is that a lot of the things you’ve spoken about today are things we’ve heard from other regions, and I’m just wondering — I’ll speak from the federal government perspective — do the migrant worker programs need a reset? Do we have to look at them all again? The Temporary Foreign Worker Program was developed in the 1970s, and here we are many years later with far more migrant workers coming into Canada — a lot in Atlantic Canada — and is it sufficient or does it need changes that would make the program run more efficiently and be easier for employers and migrant workers?
[Translation]
Ms. Losier: Thank you for the question. The program has indeed been in place for many years. As a settlement agency, we receive questions from a number of businesses about the whole process and how we bring people into Canada.
Our mandate does not include international recruitment, but businesses are not well informed about the recruitment process. That lack of education means that businesses are less likely to properly assist temporary workers. Education is needed. Is it possible to review the process? We do not recruit, so I cannot speak to all the stages in the process, but companies have told us that recruitment is difficult.
[English]
Senator Cordy: Thank you for that. That’s a really good point that you’ve made that we need more education for the migrant workers and we also need education for businesses who are trying to bring workers to us.
You also spoke about the language problem, and we did hear, particularly in rural areas, that the workers — of course, as we would do the same thing — you’re going to stay with the other workers who speak your language. While that’s positive to have other workers who speak your language, it’s not teaching you French or English, which are Canada’s languages. New Brunswick is the only official bilingual province, by the way.
So how do we do that in the rural areas? It’s a challenge, and I just got back from Newfoundland — the fishing communities and in the rural areas — and it’s the same kind of challenges. How do we do that? How do we make it happen?
[Translation]
Ms. Losier: As I stated in our recommendations, we have to be able to offer programs that temporary workers can use. They work long hours, often have families, and it is very difficult for them to find the time to learn another language. It is true that temporary workers stick together. People from Mexico live together, for example. It is very difficult for them to get exposure to another language. Francophone Acadian culture has certain characteristics, and we want to be able to promote it in our community.
There are some federal initiatives that offer language training. Right now, that training is offered by community colleges and is funded by IRCC. According to the latest information, however, those are pilot projects. The federal funding we receive is primarily for permanent residents. Our organization does not receive enough funding to offer language classes to temporary workers since we receive only a small amount from the province for that purpose.
We would like to be able to help temporary workers learn the language since that will help them integrate into the community and break down barriers in the host community, in turn making it more open to newcomers. Community members know that the newcomers are primarily Spanish-speaking, and it is very difficult to overcome the language barrier. We always stress the need for training. The programs must be accessible and the pilot projects through the community college were for online learning.
The challenge is to keep our workers and get them on board with language classes. This is challenging because these people work long hours. We have conversation circles that allow us to create a network and develop a relationship with clients, specifically to develop ties in the community. These conversation circles are not enough, though; we need language training. This is a very important issue. We need to find a way to reach out to and keep these people.
[English]
The Chair: Senators, Ms. Losier is with us for a full hour, so I’m going to extend and be very generous with your questions and answers. This is a change, I know, from past practice.
[Translation]
Senator Osler: Thank you for being here today, Ms. Losier.
[English]
I believe last week we did meet with folks from CAFi in Acadie. The committee always appreciates hearing the real-life examples you provided.
[Translation]
I have two questions in English.
[English]
My first question is this: In your experience, what are some of the health care challenges that the workers as well as the employers have been facing?
Are there specific countries where immigration consultants have been used more often by workers that have led to the workers experiencing more problems with payments or not understanding where they’re working — transportation? Are there some countries where the workers have had more problems with the immigration consultants?
[Translation]
Ms. Losier: I understand you have two questions, and the first one was about health care needs?
[English]
Senator Osler: Could you tell us about some of the challenges the workers have been facing in regard to accessing health care? Also, have you heard from employers about challenges with accessing health care?
[Translation]
Ms. Losier: Since I am at head office, I am not always aware of all the situations that arise with employees, so it is hard for me to give specific examples. You have to remember that temporary workers in the Shediac and Cap-Acadie region have virtually no access to health care owing to the distances involved. Without transportation, those people cannot get to health care centres. The distance of remote regions makes it very difficult to access health care.
The second question was about consultants. Without generalizing — and I do not want to identify specific countries —, I think the problem right now involves companies in Algeria. Consultants in Algeria had approached temporary workers and the clients had to pay a lot of money to get a work permit. We do have the company’s name though.
Senator Osler: Thank you.
Senator Cormier: Thank you for being here, Ms. Losier. I really appreciate your taking the time to be with us, especially since the CAFi plays an absolutely vital role in offering settlement and integration services for temporary workers. We have heard your concerns and know that you are facing tremendous financial challenges. Further, you are also part of the minority community. You work in francophone and acadian communities. I want to acknowledge that first, since your work is very specific and that has to be considered in the funding you receive. You are funded by the federal and provincial governments.
I have two questions for you. You hear a lot about the challenges that workers face. What mechanisms do you have to provide that information to the federal government or the provincial government? Are you able to provide specific information and report on the issues you have seen? I would like to understand this very important process.
Ms. Losier: It is our reception officers who develop a relationship with the clients. Our clients develop very special relationships with our staff. It is difficult for a newcomer to open up and talk about challenges they face for fear of reprisal. At the local level, we try to meet specific, basic needs. Some clients come to us if they need to use food banks. So we set that up for them. We also work with municipalities to meet our clients’ needs.
Defending temporary workers’ rights is of course more than our organization can handle. Instead, we guide clients to federal resources to get help. The steps that certain more vulnerable workers have to follow to get help is not always clear and they require a lot of assistance.
Senator Cormier: I have a more specific question. Are you able to report back to the federal government on what you’re hearing on the ground and the challenges workers are facing? Are you able to report? Do you have anyone in the federal government that you can report to?
Ms. Losier: We sit on various committees. IRCC participates in the Atlantic committee. We also sit on provincial committees with IRCC representatives. In some specific client situations, we prefer to deal directly with our host agents or with the Atlantic federal regional directors. We have close ties with IRCC employees.
Senator Cormier: My next question is about language training, which you mentioned. The Committee on Official Languages recently tabled a report on language training for workers. IRCC does not fund settlement services for temporary residents, i.e. language training and employment services. Furthermore, we know that the francophone mobility program has seen a decline in French-language skills.
In a French-speaking minority context like the one in which you work, considering that you also want to help people socialize and integrate, and for those who would eventually like to obtain permanent resident status, what is your view on the issue of language training? You mentioned it, but do you think it bodes well to lower language requirements to help workers arriving in New Brunswick cope with the challenges of language integration? What more can you tell us about that?
Ms. Losier: It’s funny you should ask, because we know someone right now who is a francophone and hasn’t even taken her French exam. So that could be a recommendation we could make. Perhaps if we reduced the language requirements, it would enable people to apply for permanent residency more quickly and then learn French. Obviously, the language issue poses a challenge for our temporary workers, especially if they don’t have access to language courses. Lowering language requirements could be a solution.
Senator Cormier: Thank you.
Senator Mégie: Thank you for being with us, Ms. Losier. I’d like to continue in the same vein as Senator Cormier on the language issue.
You sit on several committees to voice the issues you face in your province. Can you make your voice heard on the fact that Canada should prioritize workers from French-speaking countries for your province? The closest country to you, geographically speaking, is Haiti. Would there be any possibility of Canada stepping in to lead this group?
You said we need to establish a bilateral agreement with the countries. However, every time I ask the question at meetings, we are told that there is no bilateral agreement with Haiti.
Do you think that bilateral agreements are mandatory for a country to benefit from this program?
Ms. Losier: I’m not comfortable answering that question. I understand from last week’s meeting that there was a question about security for Haiti. I’m not in a position to tell you why companies are inclined to go to Mexico, Jamaica or the Philippines. Obviously, these are countries where temporary workers are not French-speaking.
Could we go looking for people in French-speaking countries? I think we could. Having French speakers could strengthen the linguistic issue; we could also, conversely, offer English courses. I think there’s an opening, but the matter needs further study.
Senator Mégie: Thank you.
[English]
Senator Kutcher: Thank you very much for being with us, Ms. Losier. Chair, thank you very much for giving us extra time. I will intend to take full advantage of that.
We have been hearing from you and from others about problematic housing conditions. Our understanding is that some of the oversight and enforcement of the standards and rules is the responsibility of Service Canada.
We do understand there are jurisdictional concerns between the federal government, provinces and municipalities around housing.
Does your agency ever act as the third-party complainant to Service Canada about conditions that are brought to your attention in order to protect the workers? If so, what response have you had and what has been your experience with the oversight and enforcement of Service Canada?
Could there be alternatives to Service Canada that would provide an oversight and enforcement role that would also protect the workers? Those two questions first, please.
[Translation]
Ms. Losier: Thank you for the question. Obviously, our organization is a host and settlement organization. We don’t necessarily have the funding or capacity to advocate for every situation. Our mandate is not to advocate. All we can do is accompany customers to resources.
In the Cap-Acadie region, we have only five employees who serve this population of temporary workers and permanent residents who are settling in. When clients are concerned about their housing conditions, we redirect them to other services. We understand that there are limits for them in terms of knowing the system they face to obtain better housing services. We make sure we establish links between the services and our clients. We follow up with them to see if everything is going well. For our part, that’s what we can do right now. We’re very limited as a resource.
[English]
Senator Kutcher: I appreciate that, and thank you for that. I do understand the limitations very well from my own experience with settlement services in Nova Scotia. I’m going to come to that in a minute.
Let’s explore that issue further. I understand that your organization doesn’t have the capacity to do that. Do you know if there is an organization that is independent of Service Canada that can protect the workers for complaint? From your understanding, what kind of a job has Service Canada done to investigate and enforce concerns around housing?
[Translation]
Ms. Losier: In my experience, I know there have been a few situations where workers have complained about the housing conditions, particularly in the Moncton area. These were not necessarily temporary workers. As far as I know, this has been resolved. Should there be another monitoring agency? Yes, but not just for housing. We need an association that can better accompany temporary workers on the whole issue of rights, including access to health care and housing, and help them defend their rights when they don’t have enough hours. We need to get better organized to better protect all the rights of temporary workers. Right now, there seems to be a gap when it comes to redirecting people to an association that can better accompany them.
[English]
Senator Kutcher: Thank you for that, Ms. Losier. I want to let my colleagues know that I did not pre-script Ms. Losier for saying that because it leads perfectly into the next question.
We are aware that settlement agencies are not funded to support temporary foreign workers. In fact, in my experience, some of them have been prohibited, and when they have supported they’ve been told their funding may be reviewed.
Can you give us advice on what changes might be made available for settlement agencies and what regulations could be changed to allow settlement agencies to take on these important roles for temporary foreign workers and then to access funding so that they would have the ability to do so?
[Translation]
Ms. Losier: We’ve already mentioned it. Our organization’s main funding comes from the federal government. This funding is intended primarily for permanent residents. As a settlement organization, if we were able to receive additional federal funding and expand the clientele we can serve, particularly temporary workers, it would enable us to set up programs and have people who are trained to accompany temporary workers. Certainly, additional funding from the federal government would enable us to serve temporary foreign workers.
[English]
Senator Kutcher: If I understand what you said, your advice would be to change the regulations so that settlement agencies would be able to provide services to temporary foreign workers and then to have dedicated funding to allow you to meet those needs. Is that what you’re saying?
[Translation]
Ms. Losier: Yes, that’s right.
[English]
Senator Kutcher: Could you say that, please? Really, you need to say that because then we can use your testimony.
The Chair: I think, Senator Kutcher, our witness has said that she would like to see those recommendations. We have that on record, so we will be able to propose it.
Senator Petten: Thank you for the opportunity to speak. This is a topic I’m very familiar with in Newfoundland and Labrador and as an employer who has employed many of these workers in my former life.
I am a little bit surprised with the negativity on all of the problems because it is in the interests of the employers to have people who are working, happy and would want to return, the employers are dealing with an aging workforce and they just can’t deal with going through the product. They’re at risk of even closing their businesses, so they have to do some things.
I know that this year in the plant with which I was associated — seafood processing — they had Mexicans, but they would group them so they would be comfortable with each other. I’m talking about a language barrier, even in English. They would have one person that they would be able to communicate with or help each other. I went to visit them earlier this year in spring when they first arrived — they weren’t there; I was disappointed — to get an opportunity to speak to them and welcome them. They were all at the bank setting up their bank accounts because they had one person in their group.
One of the things that has been happening within Newfoundland and Labrador on trying to deal with that is trying to work as a partnership with the funding agencies and being able to look at better conditions for housing.
I know in this particular case where I visited, they had bought a house and turned it into a dormitory where they could have some facilities, being able to work together. The other thing they did is they set up some people within the operation — if they had any issues — to go to. It was like a buddy system they could work with. There were some positive examples.
There are still lots of problems. Whether they’re with the Temporary Foreign Worker Program or even the local citizens in these rural communities, there is a health care problem, period, with all of these things because you are dealing with living in rural areas. It is something the province is trying to address.
I’m wondering if the provinces have a role to play in dealing with some of these agencies and being able to say maybe there’s a certification that needs to be in place. Maybe they need to be talking to the province about even doing some of the regulations. I know, even with the Ukrainians, the Newfoundland and Labrador government has been bringing in planeloads of people, welcoming them in.
The other thing is that a lot of these temporary workers, they’re just there for a period of time. A lot of them like to stay. They need to be able to be supported and maybe encouraged to start businesses, or to be able to carry on their life there. You need more citizens to be able to do the work that is located there.
Is there a way that the provinces could be more involved with a partnership with the organizations and the employers, holding their feet to the fire with what they need to be doing and not being acceptable? They need to be taken to task if there’s a problem with that.
I don’t see — they need them so badly — why they wouldn’t be looking after them. That’s what I’m having trouble understanding.
[Translation]
Ms. Losier: As an organization, one of our biggest challenges is to receive funding to support employability as well as all related components. Right now, as we plan our activities, we don’t receive funding to offer programs, either to support employers or even to accompany workers towards employability. We are well aware that with the renewal of funding, it is very clear that for our association, anything to do with employability will not be accessible for the next four years, nor according to our next funding agreements.
As an association, this holds us back enormously in terms of developing programs. What we can do is continue to develop partnerships. Obviously, at the regional level, like in Shediac and Cap-Acadie, our employees establish very strong links with businesses. We also want to be a gateway for businesses, to establish links and provide better support for employers. However, in terms of funding, as a small non-profit organization, the task is extensive.
[English]
Senator Burey: I was privileged to meet with some officials from your organization. Thank you so much for the work that you are doing with so few resources, and you have expanded.
I wanted to add on to Senator Cordy’s question. Not that you are going to be able to design the system, but your important observations of what is happening on the ground, the pain points, the areas where abuses occur will help — federally and provincially — to design a system that is going to meet the needs of the international workers, the communities and the businesses. This is what we are asking you, from your on-the-ground experience: What is going to help us? You have made some very important recommendations.
I was particularly interested in the 60% increase in closed permits that you mentioned. Can you tell us more about that? Where are these closed permits coming from? Are these things creating the environment for more abuses? Can you tell us more about that?
[Translation]
Ms. Losier: The work permits we received over the past year were mostly for people from the Philippines, Mexico and Jamaica. These are the three main countries of origin of our temporary workers.
We don’t want to generalize: We’ve talked about a few situations that concerned some of the 186 or so temporary workers who have arrived in recent years. There are other situations where workers — these were people from Morocco too — These are situations that can arise. Was that the question, knowing where the foreign workers were coming from and what we could do?
[English]
Senator Burey: Yes. Tell us more about the closed work permits, where those international workers are coming from and if this is an area where we are seeing more abuses. That is the question.
[Translation]
Ms. Losier: The main employers in the Shediac and Cap‑Acadie region are in the fish processing industry. This is the region’s main industry. Two employers were not in the fishing industry, but in the food service industry. We also have people in the fishing industry.
[English]
Senator Burey: I am trying to get at, in the system that we have now, where are we having the most pain points and what is causing most of the issues?
The other thing that you mentioned was the possibility in your recommendations of the bilateral agreements. We know that some countries have bilateral agreements. Where did that recommendation come from? Was it from what you were hearing on the ground from the people who were coming for assistance?
[Translation]
Ms. Losier: For us, we have to be able to ensure the safety of temporary workers. The fact that people come here and tell us they’ve paid large sums to consultants from other countries... We say to ourselves that if we could have direct agreements with countries where we could ensure safety in relation to the question of consultants... When we hear about these situations, it’s out of our hands and we don’t really know how to support these people. We don’t have the capacity or resources to do that. Our recommendation is to see how we can get these people here in a safe context, so that people don’t feel they’ve been defrauded.
[English]
Senator Dasko: Thank you for being here today.
Last week, when we were on our trip, we met with a number of employers. It is clear that we met with good employers. I don’t think anybody who was a poor employer would have wanted to meet with us. Let’s say our sample was not representative of the employers.
However, we heard a number of these issues of great concern. I am asking for your impression because you don’t have any particular data overall on employers.
Would you say that most employers are good employers and there are just a few who treat workers badly? Is it your impression that there are a lot of employers who treat workers badly? I am trying to get a sense. I know that you cannot say exactly what the proportion is. Do you have a sense? A few bad and most are good or the opposite?
[Translation]
Ms. Losier: It’s obvious that we work in a very small region. If one or two employers are mistreating our clients, given the population we have, that’s two too many. Do I believe that some companies are resourceful and have learned to work well with temporary workers?
I couldn’t agree more. During your visit, you met some companies that are very kind to their temporary workers. Unfortunately — and I think this may be due to a lack of knowledge about collaborative working methods and interculturality with clients — there are a few companies at fault. Do I think the majority of contractors in the region are doing a good job? I think so, I hope so, but we still see certain situations arise.
I always have the following perspective: We want to fill the labour shortage, because there’s a need for the entrepreneur, but we must also realize that the temporary worker also has needs. For them, it’s a question of a better quality of life, health and safety, and providing for themselves and their families. How can we find a happy medium where both can get along? That’s why we bring these people here. Thank you.
[English]
The Chair: Thank you, Ms. Losier.
We will be going to second round, but my colleagues will indulge me first with a short question to Ms. Losier.
On the trip to New Brunswick and P.E.I., we met with employers and workers. Senator Petten, I can understand and I will verify that we met with model employers, but we also heard about bad apples. I’m not sure if there are a few bad apples or a lot of bad apples because, as Senator Dasko said, this whole context is driven by anecdotes and not by data, and that is our problem here.
We did hear from many — in fact from all employers — who said, “My business would shut down tomorrow without migrant workers.” This conversation so far has been all about what governments can do and what your organization can do.
From your work, can you tell us what more you think employers could be doing?
[Translation]
Ms. Losier: As I explained earlier, companies want to hire labour, so they go looking for people internationally. There’s also the question of openness to the culture of the people companies bring here. I think they also have a responsibility to ensure that these workers are fully integrated. I wouldn’t want people to be seen as labour only; they’re also humans, people with needs.
I’d really like companies to be more open to better integrating newcomers into their corporate environment. I think there may be a lack of training within companies, to better support and see to the needs of temporary workers within the host community. Companies should also offer training to employees in the host community, so that all the other employees in the company who don’t come from another country are able to support a colleague who comes from Mexico, but who is having difficulties, who doesn’t understand and with whom we can’t talk. We also need to understand that, as Canadians, we need to adapt to the learning process of our colleagues who come from another country.
If I went to work in Morocco tomorrow morning, I would most likely need accommodation as an employee, no matter what workplace I ended up in. There’s a need for understanding on the part of the Canadian community towards people who arrive in the country and come to work in our workplaces.
[English]
The Chair: Thank you, Ms. Losier. I wonder if you would like to comment on labels. You’ve used the terms “foreign workers” and “temporary migrant workers.” Do you think there is better language, especially in French, which is clearly different from English, to use as a label? I don’t need you to answer that right away. If you have any suggestions for us, please send them to us.
[Translation]
Senator Cormier: I’d like to come back to the question of the challenges companies have in their ability to ensure proper integration of workers. During our mission to New Brunswick, we heard from employers who started out as family-run businesses, then grew into larger ones, but didn’t have a human resources department and didn’t have the skills or related resources. Within the framework of these programs designed to welcome foreign workers, do you think there are programs that could be aimed more specifically at employers to support them in this work of social and cultural integration, since there are multiple cultural integration issues? What can you tell us about this?
Ms. Losier: That’s a very good question; I’d like more time to think about it. Of course, we demand and hope that the employer or the person responsible for human resources has undergone training. We agree that the training may last half a day or a few hours; we have no control over what happens afterwards. Could we have support programs for companies to receive training, but also follow up? Our organization will soon be offering province‑wide training for certain companies that bring in people from abroad. The question we asked the entrepreneur was: “Yes, we’ll offer you training, but what commitments will you make afterwards?” This dialogue is necessary to find out the company’s commitment and what will happen next, but perhaps we should also have an organization that follows up with companies.
Senator Cormier: Would you be able to provide this follow‑up if —
[English]
The Chair: Senator Cormier, my generosity has unfortunately reached its limit. Senator Kutcher, I apologize but no more time for you. I thank Ms. Losier for being on the hot seat for a full hour and answering our questions so generously. If you have any further insights or perspectives, we welcome you to submit them in writing to this committee.
Thank you very much again to all of you and to our witness.
Joining us in person for the second panel, and thank you so much for doing so, is Ms. Teresa Acheson, President, Yukon Federation of Labour.
We also have Charles Cirtwill, President and Chief Executive Officer of the Northern Policy Institute.
Thank you both for joining us today. Both of our witnesses will have five minutes each, allocated for opening statements, and then we will follow up with questions.
Ms. Acheson, the first five minutes is yours.
Teresa Acheson, President, Yukon Federation of Labour: Thank you for your invitation to attend today’s session. We’re very happy to participate in your study on the important issue of Canada’s temporary and migrant labour program.
The Yukon Federation of Labour, chartered by the Canadian Labour Congress in 1980, advocates for all 24,000 workers in the Yukon, funded by our 7,000 affiliated union members in the territory. My name is Teresa Acheson, President of the Yukon Federation of Labour. Along with me, if we can get the internet to work, is my colleague Donna-Marie Haughton, equity representative on the committee.
I wanted to begin by giving you an overview of some of the realities of living in a northern community. We deal with extreme cold and dark for six months of the year. There is a high cost of living and a lack of access to services. There’s a growing need to address language barriers for newcomers. Indigenous populations are rediscovering their languages, and Nunavut has Inuktitut as an official language. We have First Nation majority settlements, recent growth in cultural diversity and new cultural community associations emerging. There’s often a progression in the Yukon job market where good workers are pulled from private to public jobs, which creates an ongoing cycle of vacancies. The Yukon has the fastest growing economy in Canada, and one of the lowest unemployment rates.
There is a notable divide between public and private sector, large and small employers. Forty-six per cent of workers in Yukon work in some form of government. Of employers who take courses for COR certification required to bid on government jobs, Northern Safety Network Yukon reports that 80% are small employers with less than 10 employees.
There is real isolation in northern communities, with lack of infrastructure and growing substance use and abuse. Northern communities have a lot of seasonal work — tourist season and construction season. The Yukon is a very beautiful place. There’s a lot of space to grow and thrive, and opportunity to provide new communities, homes, livelihood and a safe future in Canada.
First Nations perspectives and reconciliation must be part of a newcomer’s journey.
Looking ahead, we want to keep Yukon immigration streams open, available and give room to increase. We want an expanding of the Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada, or IRCC, office because there’s exceptional value to have local experts who can contact processing offices and assist with local knowledge. There should be a strong connection between federal and territorial immigration offices and border services as well as settlement services and labour stakeholders.
Government funding should be allocated to support those who want to work and contribute to our Canadian economy.
We also think that adopting a more holistic, worker-centric approach to immigration will help. If we look at the Association franco-yukonnaise in Yukon, it reaches out to employers, promotes jobs, assists with applications, provides settlement services and community connections, and is thereby seen as a place of truth and authority for the newcomer and their potential employers.
Make things simpler for the employer, employee and the system. Reduce the risk of loss due to intimidation, error, fraud and layers that lose connection with the worker at the site.
We want to allow workers access to education and continual learning, either for their job or in their previous training or vocation. This can also help with community connection.
Allow for open work permits on the nominee program, above the full-time job at the worker’s choice.
Continue the option to allow visitors to switch to work permits while in the country, and work permit processing fulfillment should protect the vulnerability of the worker.
Include First Nations reconciliation and cultural awareness that is applicable to the community that they’re going to be part of.
Create positive interactions between the worker and the system that is in place to support them so it’s not perceived as dangerous or penalizing to engage.
Include community integration, for example, volunteer community involvement, as part of the immigration process or settlement services.
Decrease barriers for employers and consider small business pathways.
Northern communities also need education, information and successful support for welcoming of migrant workers new to Canada, including awareness of systemic racism that may still be in place.
I will note that the Yukon Federation of Labour has been tasked by our last convention to investigate the need for a worker action centre in the Yukon. So far, research has indicated that new-to-Canada and new-to-Yukon workers are the most vulnerable and would benefit from a collective source of labour and settlement supports.
The Chair: Thank you Ms. Acheson. Mr. Cirtwill, your five minutes.
Charles Cirtwill, President and Chief Executive Officer, Northern Policy Institute: Thank you for the invitation to join the committee today. I want to thank you very much for the opportunity.
As you know, I’m Charles Cirtwill, President and CEO of Northern Policy Institute, or NPI. The institute is an independent, evidence-driven, full-service public policy research institute based here in northern Ontario and focused on issues affecting the various regions of northern Ontario.
If you’re trying to place us on a political spectrum, I would say that on some days we sound like the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives and other days we sound like the Fraser Institute. As we like to say here, it depends. We have offices in Thunder Bay and Kirkland Lake. Those two offices are roughly 1,000 kilometres apart, about the same distance from Quebec City to Halifax. There’s no direct passenger rail service between our offices, and no regularly scheduled air connection. You can use a bus — 21 hours on the bus, plus one overnight stay — to make your third connection.
I cite these transportation issues in the context of temporary workers in northern communities to highlight that it isn’t easy in northern Ontario to temporarily draw labour from other places. That is, at least in part, the reason why temporary workers in northern Ontario are not what you see depicted in Hollywood movies. They’re not migrant farm workers arriving on a bus and living in communal housing. Temporary workers in northern Ontario are international students — thousands of international students. In 2019, there were about 3,000 work permit holders in all of northern Ontario. At the same time, there were 8,000 study permit holders, and those study permit holders were working. According to labour force data from 2021, non-permanent residents accounted for about 2% of northern Ontario’s workforce, so roughly 7,500 people were non-permanent residents, meaning three quarters of those 7,500 — those people who were actively working or looking for work — were students.
Their participation rate was 82.5% compared to a rate for the general population of 56.8%, a 30% difference. Unemployment was 7.3% for non-permanent residents and 10.5% for everybody else. But those non-permanent residents were heavily clustered in two industries — 24.4% of them in the retail trade, which is about is 12% for everyone else, so double the rate; and 26.1% of non-permanent workers were in accommodation and food services as opposed to a rate of about 6% for everyone else.
All of those active workers weren’t and aren’t making much money. In 2019, the median after-tax income for non‑permanent residents was a little over $14,000 compared to roughly $36,000 for all income workers in northern Ontario. That variance is primarily driven by the 20-hour limit on working while studying. Anecdotally, we’re hearing that the temporary lifting of this cap for 2023 has eased staff shortages for businesses and increased the quality of life for students. Extending that particular experiment for another couple years so we have time to properly assess its impacts is an idea worth considering.
Why is it that northern Ontario has to depend so significantly on international students to fill job vacancies in our communities? One reason is the immigration system itself, unfortunately. Canada designed the system to create shortages. What is that inscription on the Statue of Liberty? “Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses . . . .” That’s the American dream: to arrive in one economic class, be given opportunities you can’t or won’t get elsewhere and then move up. Canada has something else entirely different. Let’s call it the Laurentian dream. Our version is: “Give us your people who are highly educated, think like us, talk like us, read the same books as we do, they maybe even have a little money set aside. Anyone who is described as in the middle class or working hard to join it, no thanks. If you’re outside Canada, you can do that someplace else please.”
This summary may seem a bit harsh, especially considering Canada’s amazing record on refugees over the years, but it does accurately reflect the underlying consensus of our economic immigration strategy.
Our point system unapologetically ignores the Canadian labour market and creates an artificial surplus of some types of knowledge and an artificial scarcity of other types. The consequences of such gerrymandering were fairly easy to predict — unemployment and underemployment for those with oversupplied education, and scarcity for those with the skills we explicitly said we were less interested in. That’s what gave us the physician cab drivers and the registered nurses as lab technicians.
Over the last 20 years, desperate provinces, regions, communities, employers and immigrants have single-mindedly sought ways around, through or over these artificial barriers. Provincial nominee streams allowed provinces to shift from priorities set in Ottawa to priorities set locally. Francophone express entry and welcoming community initiatives have provided resources to attract and retain francophones across Canada, and especially francophones in rural and northern francophone communities. The Atlantic immigration program ties immigrants directly to unfilled jobs that are here.
The Rural and Northern Immigration Pilot has achieved the same success for communities across northern Ontario, and the expansion of the boundaries to the regions around the northern urban centres promises even more success.
But now we find ourselves with a housing shortage, and we’re hearing rumblings —
The Chair: I’m sorry, Mr. Cirtwill. I’m sorry on a number of points. First, I mispronounced your name. I apologize. Is Cirtwill the right way of pronouncing it?
Mr. Cirtwill: You’ve got it.
The Chair: Thank you, and I apologize for cutting you off, but hopefully you’ll get the balance of your remarks in during the questions.
Colleagues, we’ll now revert to our usual practice and go around the table asking questions. Senators will have five minutes each for question and answer, and with your permission, let me kick off a first question to Ms. Acheson.
Ms. Acheson, I note that the Yukon has a very particular industry which is overrepresented in the interest of migrant labourers, and that is the film industry. It’s different from what we heard so far with dairy, agriculture and lobster processing.
My notes say 80% of the 100 temporary foreign workers in the Yukon, which is 80, work in the film industry. Can you explain this phenomenon to us? What is so particular about it?
Ms. Acheson: The best explanation I can offer is my understanding is they’ve come because the Yukon is a great place for filming. It’s the scenery that we have. The other thing I would expect plays into this is they’re the ones who know how to use the system and it works for them, and it truly is temporary foreign work. My impression of most of those is they’re coming with an employer where they already have jobs in another country and they’re coming to Canada temporarily to film.
Many of the comments we’re bringing to you is not necessarily targeted at those individuals because they’re not at risk as much as other temporary workers that would come to Canada because they’re coming to work in a location, specifically in the Yukon, and then they have stability of going back to an employer in the country they came from.
That’s the stats of the film industry recently.
The Chair: That is an interesting insight. Thank you very much. Mr. Cirtwill, I want to thank you for bringing the issue of international foreign students to the table. I’m sure my colleagues will have questions.
Senator Cordy: I’ll start with Mr. Cirtwill, but thank you very much to both of you. It’s interesting looking at more remote areas in our study.
Mr. Cirtwill, you spoke about the point system and the immigration system, and I’ve been reading quite a bit lately about the challenges we have finding the workers we need for 2023. My group in the Senate actually looked at the housing issue in meetings all day Monday, and what we heard, and what I think you started to say — I don’t want to put words in your mouth — is that we have an immigration system designed to bring in accountants and lawyers and so on with the point system, but we don’t have a system designed to bring in the workforce that we need in 2023 for building houses and those kinds of things. You started to talk about it a little bit before your time ran out, so I wonder if you could go into greater detail on that?
Mr. Cirtwill: Thank you, senator, for the question, and the good news is you’re exactly right. That’s precisely what I was going to say. Over the last 20 years, we have found that all of the exceptions sought around immigration and temporary foreign access, et cetera, are targeted at filling job vacancies, jobs in demand that are going unfilled by people who are already here in the country. We’ve seen very interesting examples of an expanded, high-skilled express entry program that is now up and running and has been in Ontario, for example, since 2019 provincially. We are glad to see the feds have come on board as well. That program needs to be expanded.
We saw a recent announcement just last week of a new express entry program for individuals in the transportation sector. Given the scarcity among pilots, particularly pilots into remote areas, that’s a huge problem for northern Ontario and a great idea for the federal government in terms of expediting that process.
If we’re serious about critical minerals, the transportation sector has been suffering a long time around labour shortages and that change will also assist. So that’s exactly right: We can use the system we have by making and expanding upon the things that have been working.
Senator Cordy: Thank you very much for that.
Ms. Acheson, I was going to ask about the film industry. I think we all sort of went, “Wow, that’s it.” What are the challenges? When you’re in the North, there are certainly challenges that you might not have in the city, and the city would have challenges that you might not have. So we’ve got the high cost of living, the cold and all of those kinds of things that you mentioned.
When temporary foreign workers go to the Yukon, do they tend to stay in Whitehorse or do they go outside of Whitehorse? We talk about remote communities in the southern parts of the country, but remote communities in the Yukon are certainly really remote.
Ms. Acheson: You’re right, they’re very remote.
The services in the Yukon are Whitehorse-centric. There is the assumption that if you need services or are accessing public services or other information, Whitehorse is the hub. The infrastructure decreases as you get out to the smaller communities.
A Northern community outside of Whitehorse might have a small grocery store or general store, they might have a post office and part-time health services. The Yukon does have some big-box stores, but no Costco, no high-end retail and no large shopping malls. Most people have to go online for specialty items.
I will also mention that Ms. Haughton can’t participate. We have a lack of infrastructure.
I live 30 minutes outside of Whitehorse, and when driving home, I will lose cell service and internet access. It’s limited and expensive, so in some places, the only option is digital subscriber line, or DSL, which is a slow, capped connection. Fibre is not an option outside of the capital city, essentially.
So those are things to consider with migrant workers coming because they are typically counting upon that type of infrastructure to sustain them, be their lifeline to family back home or to connect to support services. It’s a reality that you have to understand that it’s there, it’s expensive and it’s unreliable.
Senator Cordy: What role does the Yukon Federation of Labour play in migrant workers coming to the region?
The Chair: We will hold the answer to that question for the next round.
Senator Osler: Thank you to the witnesses for being here today. My question is for Ms. Acheson.
This committee has heard the difficulties that workers have had integrating into communities, whether it be housing, language, transportation, access to child care or socialization. In your remarks, you spoke about the realities of being in the North with Indigenous peoples. In the Canadian context, part of integrating into Canadian society does — should — require Indigenous cultural awareness.
My question is in three parts. Are workers being provided with cultural awareness training or programs? If so, who is providing the training and programs? Finally, in your opinion, are the training and programs sufficient to enable workers to better understand the Canadian context that they’re in?
Ms. Acheson: Those are very good questions.
I did try to connect with a variety of sources before coming here. From what I am aware of, I don’t know that there’s intentional cultural awareness happening in all cases, but there are places that can provide it, if needed. For example, Yukon University has a First Nations 101 and that is offered to government employees in the Yukon and others as well.
In the communities, it would be important that the community they’re going to be a part of is the one to provide the information about their culture because it can be unique, community to community.
Prior to coming here, I did try to reach out to some of our First Nations self-governments that are established in the Yukon, but I didn’t get a lot back from them to be able to share with you at this point. For example, I had someone visiting the Yukon from Uganda, and they were able to do what is called a walking tour with a young woman working for the Government of Canada who did walking tours, explaining about the Indigenous culture and history along the waterfront. He was like, “Wow, I didn’t know this,” and it was very helpful for him for the rest of his visit and his interactions as he was touring communities.
Senator Osler: I have a quick supplementary. Ms. Acheson, it sounds like it’s up to the worker to seek out any cultural awareness or sensitivity training programs; they’re not being offered currently by governments, employers or the communities? Is that a correct read?
Ms. Acheson: Again, I’m making assumptions here because I don’t know the full workings of their systems. But from what I have engaged so far, I don’t see this intentionally being done. If it is, it’s a limited scope in that they might say that you should be aware of it and there are First Nations cultural differences or uniqueness to each community that you should be aware of. However, going into the depths of it, I think that’s still something that is to be worked out.
Senator Osler: Thank you.
[Translation]
Senator Cormier: I’m going to ask my question in French, Ms. Acheson, and it concerns the Association franco-yukonnaise. Their website tells us that they are very active in international recruitment and they have a series of activities coming up, such as networking, an IRCC liaison tour and luncheon meetings. My question is multi-faceted. Firstly, does this association welcome temporary foreign workers? Where do they come from? In what sector of activity do they work? Considering that this is a francophone organization, what challenges do these workers face in the Yukon? Do these temporary foreign workers plan to obtain permanent residency or not?
[English]
Ms. Acheson: I’ll do my best to answer.
You asked about what countries foreign workers are coming from. As a bit of background, in the 1990s, Yukon primarily saw immigration from the Philippines and Asian countries. More recently, we’re seeing growing cultural diversity with India and African countries.
Probably of interest to you is that the francophone community in the Yukon is noting that they’re getting immigrants coming where French is a second or third language for them. I mentioned that Association franco-yukonnaise does have a more overall approach to seeking pre-employment, employment and life after employment. They have services that will go to French-speaking countries to let them know there are job opportunities. Then they help those individuals, the employers in Yukon and the employees with the application process. They have settlement services that they provide. If they need assistance with a medical appointment, there’s someone who can go with them to translate at that medical appointment.
About that, I’ve heard both good and bad. One side is that to be able to have all of those resources in one place, which is really what the francophone community is doing — providing a lot all in one place or the resources to connect to — is very helpful. On the other side, if there is a gap or a misuse of what information is shared with a temporary worker who is coming in, they don’t have options for where to go next for help. It’s unclear because they’re relying upon the francophone community to provide the information for them.
So I’ve heard both sides of that.
Senator Cormier: Permanent residency — those workers who come under the association, do most of them plan to apply for permanent residency?
Ms. Acheson: Yes, most of what we see in the Yukon are the ones who are planning to apply for permanent residency.
The Yukon Nominee Program is used a lot. In fact, they are oversubscribed this year already. I think there are 420 allotments for the Yukon, and they have 600 at this point. They have seen the increase in students.
As our counterpart said, in the Yukon, what they’re seeing is Ontario students are finding that if they come to the Yukon for a work permit, they’re not competing against thousands of others. It may be an opportunity for them to get permanent residency quicker.
The other thing with that, though, is the permit they have as a postgraduate student is an open work permit, which may or may not lead to permanent residency, whereas the Yukon Nominee Program is a closed work permit, so you’re restricted to one employer, full-time and you can’t work with other employers. That’s been brought up as well, that the applicant — the worker — is making the decision if they want to stay with the open permit or take a closed work permit.
[Translation]
Senator Mégie: I will ask my question in French.
I saw that cinema and tourism represented the majority of positions available for temporary migrants. Are there any other sectors or industries where these temporary migrants can work? If so, are there other sectors, such as natural resources, where migrants could also get involved?
[English]
Ms. Acheson: Yes. We haven’t seen the other sectors because it’s both the knowledge of the employer and how to access and apply for this, as well as the employees then to access it.
The film industry has figured this out. They know how to come in and use temporary workers. Certainly, I would see that there is opportunity in mining because mining, as an industry, in the Yukon has expanded.
The other thing is that, recently, there have been efforts to improve the agricultural industry in the Yukon, which is, looking forward, good for more sustainability in the North, but it could open up the doors for some of the tragedies we’ve seen in the South of migrant workers in the agricultural industry. That’s something important moving forward as we grow in agriculture that what we’re bringing in is going to make sure that it’s protecting the vulnerability of the worker in those situations.
Yes, there are definitely other opportunities. I suspect, at this point, that in the Yukon, even the employer does not know how to navigate and use the system and the options available. As an example of that, I have one person who probably had about 10 job offers in the Yukon, but only one of the 10 was willing to do the nominee program paperwork for them.
[Translation]
Senator Mégie: Couldn’t your federation make it its mandate to list the various sectors that would need these people and propose an instruction manual for employers, so they know what to do to go out and get these workers? I don’t know if this falls within your federation’s mandate.
[English]
Ms. Acheson: Yes, I would love it, but I’ll give you another piece of information about the North: The Yukon Federation of Labour is me. I am an office of one. It’s very different from the larger provinces. The British Columbia Federation of Labour has a staff of 50 to accomplish what it does. I’m doing the best I can, but anything I do is in partnership with others.
Even coming here, knowing that I have information from talking to Yukon employment standards, talking to Yukon immigration, we have one IRCC rep in the Yukon who started in March 2023. Also, Northern Safety Network Yukon, I see a link there because they already have a process in place for determining workplace safety standards, and they actually go out and check to see if that workplace has their safety procedures in place.
If you’re considering workers coming to the Yukon, if an employer already has what’s called COR or SECOR certification, that usually means there is less likelihood of accidents or injuries happening to workers in that workplace.
But, yes, it’s a great idea. I would love to do that study and pull the information together, but I have to admit that it will be with the assistance of others.
The Chair: Ms. Acheson, I’m going to let you off the hot seat for a minute. If I may ask Mr. Cirtwill a question.
I’m intrigued by the evidence you put before us that in the North, it is actually international foreign students who are providing the labour force for industries.
Do you have a breakdown of the industries that students tend to work in? They have open work permits, so they can move from employer to employer. That is an interesting difference from closed work permits. I wonder if you have any information about how many of them actually go back to university to complete their studies or simply continue to work.
Mr. Cirtwill: Thank you for the question, Madam Chair. The quick answer is: The numbers I was citing are actually students who are studying and working. We’re talking about close to 10,000 across all northern Ontario who are studying and working at the same time.
In terms of sectors, the two biggest are the ones I cited, which is retail and entertainment and hospitality, so restaurants and hotels. That’s almost 50% of that overall population. Then it breaks down across the standard sectors.
I can certainly send along the numbers to the committee. They are in just about every sector, so we’re talking consulting; business advising; administration; health care, particularly early childhood education and long-term care. You see a lot of activity there.
Again, interestingly enough, in the long-term care sector, you tend to see people who are overqualified — if you look at their international credentials — working at basically entry-level jobs, trying to get the Canadian-based experience to then help them with their permanent residency application.
The Chair: Thank you very much.
Senator Petten: My question is for Mr. Cirtwill, as well, regarding the students. It is an interesting phenomenon that’s happening. I think it’s happening across all of Canada with the universities looking for international students. Of course, the universities and post-secondary are the responsibility of the provinces. A lot of them are looking for international students because of the increased tuition that they receive from having international students.
As I understand, you did mention the 20-hour limit on working while studying. I believe that was lifted last November. Now there’s no limit, even on the 20 hours.
I’m wondering how you see your communities thriving if you continue without the students.
Mr. Cirtwill: Thank you for the question, senator. Just a quick clarification. My understanding of the increase from 20 to 40 is that it was lifted last November, but it was a temporary change that expires in December of this year. We have three months left.
It’s been a huge boon, as I understand it. I get a lot of international students who actually work with us here, both directly as employees but also through many of the research projects we do. They certainly are big fans of being able to work longer hours. It is a big challenge to find the resources to pay the rent, buy food and pay for transportation costs, et cetera, while they’re here.
In terms of the second part of your question around provincial responsibility, I’d actually phrase that slightly differently in that many of the domestic post-secondary institutions — colleges and universities — are particularly and especially interested in international students not just because of the higher tuitions they can receive, but because of the lower tuitions that they can receive from domestic students and the reducing numbers.
You see, for example, in Ontario we have a cap on domestic tuition which, of course, makes those international students even more attractive to enterprises that are trying to pay the bills, keep the lights on and trying to keep professors in place to teach classes that the students want.
You’re absolutely right. If we were to see, for example, a cap on international students, or a reduction in international students, NPI did an economic analysis during COVID that suggested even a 20% reduction in international students would have somewhere between a $20 to $50 million negative hit just on tuition alone. Then you have the follow-on economic impact of their consumption, so that is another $50 million lost to the economy in northern Ontario. When you talk about communities of 1,500, 2,000 or 2,500, which is the case where many of our smaller campuses are, that’s a big hit and hard to replace.
The Chair: Can I get a clarification, Mr. Cirtwill?
The figures you said, if there was a drop in international students, it would be a $50 million hit on tuition and $50 million on the local economies that are depending on people. Is that a figure for northern Ontario or is it nationally?
Mr. Cirtwill: Just for northern Ontario alone.
The Chair: Just for northern Ontario.
Mr. Cirtwill: That’s absolutely right.
The Chair: Thank you.
Mr. Cirtwill: I’ll send a copy of the study along to your clerk.
The Chair: Thank you very much. It’s good to get the facts.
Senator Dasko: I am also interested in the fate of the international students. Mr. Cirtwill, you said earlier that they work in retail and food services. Why are there not enough local residents to take the jobs in these sectors?
I’ve been to many northern communities, Sault Ste. Marie, North Bay and so on. To me, they look to be active and prosperous communities. I’m wondering where are the local residents and why are they not able to take these jobs?
Then, what is the fate of the international students? Are they able to stay in Canada? Can they become permanent residents? What is the process for them to stay in this country?
Mr. Cirtwill: Thank you for those questions, senator.
The first answer is that it’s a complicated answer in terms of why there isn’t enough of a domestic population to take those jobs. A couple of the biggest reasons are, number one, there’s not that many of us. Our birth rate has been generally declining over the last four decades, so the numbers have fallen off. The only population domestically that continues to grow at a significant rate is the First Nations and Indigenous population.
The second reason why we see a lot of gaps in terms of the work in those sectors is that they’ve traditionally been dominated by students, temporary people coming in, getting their work experience and then moving on to professions. The fact that we do not have as many youth as we used to means that natural domestic supply is shortened.
We’ve also spent at least the last four decades, since I entered the workforce, essentially communicating to every generation of children that working in those sectors — retail, transportation, accommodation — is largely a dead-end job. McJobs, et cetera, is a phrase I’ve heard a lot. There’s not a lot of passion among students to take those jobs domestically. In many cases, the reason why those jobs are pursued actively and enthusiastically by foreign students is because they need the money and they’re prepared to work.
The second question you asked is what happens to the international students. That too is a complex thing. Many of them — in fact, to get a study permit — have to sign a document that says, “No, I don’t want to stay in Canada.” That’s still a rule. That still makes it tough.
Many others are taking those part-time jobs during their postgraduate period and working with their employers, honestly, to game the system. There are a lot of shift managers out there in the retail sector because a manager position gives you greater points. You might just be flipping burgers or cooking fries, but your title is shift manager and so you’re able to move those up.
For those who want to stay, there are many avenues, more now than there were a decade ago. For those who don’t want to stay, they get the experience they need, pay the bills and then they take their Canadian-made experience to the global marketplace.
We’re very good at international education, by the way. I want to slide that in there.
Senator Dasko: Thank you very much.
The Chair: If I may pursue that line of questioning, Mr. Cirtwill, you talked about the role that international students play in the economy of the North. Senator Dasko asked a question about the local workforce, where is it?
Economists tell us that all employers need to do is raise wages. If you raise the wages, the supply-and-demand issue will be resolved through increased competition. What is your response to that position?
Mr. Cirtwill: What I would tell you is that the research we’ve done on the competitive advantages of being in northern Ontario, if you’re a nurse, you get paid more; in northern Ontario, we still have a shortage. If you’re a medical technician in northern Ontario, you get paid more than the provincial average; we still have a shortage. If you’re an early childhood educator in northern Ontario, you make more than the provincial average; we still have a shortage.
While I would, in general, agree with the economists who say that employers need to step up to the plate and pay more, make their positions more attractive, certainly there’s no question about that. But every lever in the economy is affected by every other lever.
To a certain extent around transportation issues, access to the internet — in fact, the Yukon Federation of Labour is one person. Those kinds of things matter. They have an impact on your ability to attract. There’s a limit to how much employers can pay.
The Chair: Thank you very much. We’ll return to this question, I’m sure, when we meet with the economists who are scheduled to meet with us.
Colleagues, we have a little more time.
Senator Petten: I wanted to make a comment to Ms. Acheson. I loved your proactive approach around what the employers can be doing, such as encouraging volunteering in the community. It’s a great way for them to integrate and to feel like they’re part of a community. I thought that was a wonderful comment that you made. That was a great take-away for me. Thank you.
The Chair: We have been enriched by your testimony. Colleagues, it was to a large extent different and new because we’re dealing with the Yukon and northern regions. We want to thank you very much.
(The committee adjourned.)