Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Aboriginal Peoples
Issue 13 - Evidence - Meeting of October 27, 2005 (morning meeting)
TSUU T'INA, ALBERTA, Thursday, October 27, 2005
The Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples met this day at 9:34 a.m. to examine and report on the involvement of Aboriginal communities and businesses in economic development activities in Canada.
Senator Nick G. Sibbeston (Chairman) in the chair.
[English]
The Chairman: Good morning. I will call the committee to order. We are very honoured and privileged to be on the lands and territory of Tsuu T'ina people. I am pleased that you were able to accommodate our Senate committee in your beautiful conference building here.
Please proceed, Mr. Manywounds.
Peter K. Manywounds, Special Projects Consultant, Tsuu T'ina Nation: This morning, a blessing ceremony took place in the room. There was a smudge and a prayer said at 7:00 this morning, a sunrise ceremony. We appreciate that respect for those traditional ceremonies and assure the elders and senators that was done earlier this morning.
The Chairman: I am very honoured to be here on the Tsuu T'ina land. The information I have is that they are part of the original Dene peoples that live in the north and throughout this area and the Navahos in the States — all part of the same group. I wish to say a few words in my own Dene language, just as an honour.
[The Chairman spoke in his native language.]
I said that I am honoured to be here and that it is wonderful knowing that we are all related, although our lands are very far between. It is an honour to be here amongst people that are ancestral relatives.
With that, if you would begin, we would be very pleased to hear you.
Lyle Dodginghorse, Councillor, Tsuu T'ina Nation: Good morning, senators. On behalf of the council and chief of the people of Tsuu T'ina, I welcome you to our home and our council chambers. It is an honour to be able to present to you and to discuss issues that are of critical importance not only to us but to First Nations across the country.
Tsuu T'ina means "great number of people." We are descended from the Athabascan-speaking people, which include the Navaho and Apache of the south and Dene and Chippewa of the north. We are strong, independent people with beliefs in the Tsuu T'ina emblem — a circle representing the continuing of life, a beaver pelt representing the beaver people, and a peace pipe and broken arrow representing no more war and peace with all people.
The Tsuu T'ina are in a unique position geographically. The nation is located to the south and west of the city of Calgary. That geographical closeness creates some challenges to us, but it also creates tremendous opportunities for economic development.
Today, we will highlight our plans. We will also speak frankly with you about the nature of the relationship with treaty nations and the federal government. Recently, the federal government has been offloading responsibilities in health and education to our provinces with a simple transfer of funds. That, in our view, is unacceptable, since our treaty was not signed with the provinces but with the Crown, represented by the federal government. When our people sign treaties, we assume them to be treaties that signify peace and the beginning of a government-to-government relation. History has not borne out that.
To this date, when the treaty nations like Tsuu T'ina attempt to carry out initiatives that benefit our people such as Tsuu T'ina's economic developments initiatives we are faced with federal governments whose staff and ministers have veto power. To do business, we must seek their approval, the consent of a minister of the Crown.
That was not our intent when we signed treaties. I do not believe that was the intent of the treaties. If this community intends to help foster self-sufficiency and economic development amongst First Nations people, then we must first redefine the relationship between treaty people and the federal government. We should not need permission to better ourselves through business ventures.
I thank you in advance for your time, presence and assistance on this matter, one that is critical not only to First Nations people but to all Canadians as they work together to make Canada work better. Thank you.
Mr. Manywounds: Senators, staff, and elders, we have handed out copies of our PowerPoint presentation. It is a presentation, Mr. Chairman, that should take approximately 20 minutes, and then we would be prepared to answer any questions that senators might have.
The goals of the Tsuu T'ina people are as follows: self-sufficiency through economic development; provide careers, not jobs, for a large cohort of young people; ensure vibrancy of and respect for culture, language and history by ensuring an economically bright future.
The next heading is "paradigm of proud self-sufficiency": achievement, not entitlement; education, careers, jobs; childcare, healthcare, elders care, housing; and community development.
Our economic development objectives are very clear: First, leverage the value of the land at the periphery of Tsuu T'ina while ensuring adequate rural living space. Our people are a rural people, not an urban people, and their concern is twofold. We have to develop to survive, but we want to preserve over 95 per cent of our land base, have it remain as it stands now, as rural living space. Second, Calgary's growth and opportunity can be exploited while preserving centrality of land to culture.
Our economic and business development projects include the following. First, there is the Tsuu T'ina Nation highway — which we get into in a little more detail later. There is the Tsuu T'ina Nation casino, which as of yesterday the lease was completed; we are now dealing with financing documents. We expect to be in the ground in that project in a matter of weeks. Another project is the Tsuu T'ina Business Park, where this building is located; it was designated in 1993, and we have been working with a partner to get that completed. I will talk a bit more about that later. There is the Redwood Meadows land lease extension, which is one of the most extensive commercial developments in Indian country in the early 1970s. It was 30 years ago that it was done. We are now looking at an extension to that particular land lease. Another project is our Tsuu T'ina master plan for what we call the 940 acres, the former Harvey Barracks site, which is approximately 940 acres of land in the northeast corner of the reserve surrounded by the city of Calgary. Another project is a regional infrastructure concept for potable water and effluent treatment; we are in partnership with the municipal district of Rocky View immediately north of us.
I will now talk about the Tsuu T'ina Nation highway project and the Calgary ring road extension. I would ask you to turn to the next page while I speak to this, for you to get a view of the ring road extension. The ring road will provide a much needed traffic corridor to Calgary as well as traffic to fuel future business development at Tsuu T'ina. It was first proposed in 1947. Although we are told it goes back further than that, that is the earliest documentation that we can find on the discussion. The return of the Harvey Barracks to Tsuu T'ina in 1991 made periphery land development available. That is the difference between any previous discussion of this highway between Tsuu T'ina, Calgary, and the province of Alberta. We now have property through which this road would service the development. The political will of council and chief and the Alberta premier brought about agreement in principle in 2004. The negotiations are on track. They will include cash after an appraisal has determined the value of the land as well as additional land for the land that is being taken, and that land is yet to be determined.
If you look at the map on the next page and you turn it clockwise, you will find north. The large white area that you see here is Tsuu T'ina. Obviously, that is the city of Calgary around us. The road as proposed at this stage runs through the reserve approximately five and a half miles, or about eight and a half to ten kilometres, when you add all the curves in.
If you look at the next page, you are looking at the ring road as it exists on the north end of Calgary going towards Canada Olympic Park and Highway 1. None of this section goes through the community.
If you look at the next map, and again turn it clockwise to the north, where you see that U shape is what we call the 940 land. That is part of our community. As you can see, it is bounded on two sides by the city of Calgary immediately adjacent to us. The road then crosses the Elbow River and swings through the community back towards the city of Calgary. There are different connections — Southland Drive, 90th Avenue. There is a little U there, Anderson Road. That is where we are located, just to give you a reference point of where this particular road is. In this small U, that is the building that we are sitting in right now. The road then continues south past our business development.
If you look at the next map, you will see an enlargement of where we are. The U there, Anderson Road, comes out of the city of Calgary into the business park into this building. It continues south. Just past the Fish Creek is what we call 146th Avenue. That is also the southern boundary of our community.
So, as you can see, the road as planned extends pretty well from the north to the south of our community and our lands, from about a kilometre west of our boundary to right on our boundary at the southern end.
The ring road itself is a fairly major road. If you go to the next map, you can see that the ultimate design — and I want to make sure everybody understands this. What you are looking at is what we call the ultimate design, and on the technical design committee, of which I am a member representing Tsuu T'ina's interests along with our traffic consultant, the design team's struggle is that that road is two ring roads in one.
In Calgary's long-range planning process, it has the concept of one ring road, which is the one we are talking about right now, and then in 50 years what they call an outer ring road. Our members told us, "Yes, we are prepared to consider a ring road, but only one, and we are only prepared to consider it once." Therefore, the design team's challenge was to figure out how to take two ring roads and integrate them into one quarter, and make it available both for present and required development now and for future development.
What you essentially have is two roads. One would be built after it is approved by the members, assuming they agree with it. They have final approval. The outer lanes or the outer ribbons of pavement are what would be built now along with many of the crossing structures. The internal ribbons probably would not be built for at least 30 years because the demand is not there.
So you have the ultimate design. That is what we are looking at now. We do not have that yet. In our public consultations, this is what is being shown. There will be what we call not the preliminary design but the first phase design, and that will be provided both to our membership and to city of Calgary residents and other interested parties probably as early as late January, early February.
We are on a fairly tight track with that particular project. The council and chief have a number of issues remaining to be decided and the final agreements are now proposed to be completed by the end of March, at which time, should the council and chief be satisfied, they will be taking it back to our members with the recommendation, assuming it is positive, that they give final approval for the ring road project.
Upon that final approval, there would be somewhere between 120 to 150 days of what we call papering the agreement before we get to the point of actual land transfer, where the right-of-way will be transferred out of Tsuu T'ina Nation reserve status to the province for the purpose of a highway, and the additional lands which will come from somewhere else adjacent to the reserve will transfer into reserve status. The directive from our members is that that swap had to happen concurrently. The third component obviously is that the cash payment, whatever the balance of that is, will be transferred to the nation through the federal government. That project obviously is a fairly major project. It requires completion and approval before we can move into some of our other developments.
However, our casino project, which if you turn to the next page, Mr. Chairman, is already at the stage where it can be built. We have approval of this particular project from our members as of June 30th, 2004. They voted to designate our land in the corner of the former Harvey Barracks site right adjacent to Glenmore Trail and 37th Street.
The casino overview is 70,000 square feet. It will employ up to 700 employees. In the first phase, it will just be the casino. Eventually, we hope to build a hotel, a conference centre and a large entertainment complex, but those buildings are second phase plans and would require further approval.
Unfortunately, we did not have time to give you coloured copies, for which I apologize. I will provide this coloured copy to the committee clerk, so she can make copies of this. However, this is the design of the casino that we are working on, and it is included in your package.
The floor plan of the casino is the next page. It lays out the gaming areas, the restaurants, the service areas, et cetera. It is a fairly large complex building.
The next page, even I have a hard time going through. Essentially, it is a very detailed floor plan of the gaming area. All the machines are featured there, as well as all tables. If you were to ask me about these, I can tell you where they are in relation to the main entrance, but that is about as far as I can go. The main entrance is right in the centre here. In other words, you come in and go right into the gaming area.
So that is the casino, Mr. Chairman. That casino project can proceed without the ring road, and I think that is something people need to understand. It has certainly been an issue with the City of Calgary. As a result of their refusal to allow us to hook up to their sewer and water services in particular, we have proceeded with stand-alone plans to provide those services for the casino, and we are looking in the next project at alternative methods of servicing our other developments.
Let me now turn to the subject of water and wastewater utility — which I will speak to with a bit of an overview. Our capital works manager Lee Crowchild and our land manager Jim McGuiness along with our housing department had begun at least two years ago to look for alternative solutions to provide potable water and effluent treatment for our housing requirements.
We have the same sort of challenges that many First Nations do. The aquifers are drying up. We are losing somewhere in the neighbourhood of 20 wells a year and have to truck water in to them. That has been happening with some frequency for the last 20 years. The problem of pollution as a result of the density from the septic fields had not reached problematic proportions. Nobody was getting E. Coli in the water or anything like that. However, it was a concern that as densities grew here we would run into that problem. So those gentlemen, the people in the housing department, were looking for solutions.
Just to the north of us in the municipal district of Rockyview, there is development in the highway corridor, which creates some problems for us and the city of Calgary. Rockyview is becoming more dense. In that district, everyone is either on well water or trucked-in water in their developments, those that are not serviced by the City. They are restricted from doing development because they also cannot get extension of services from the city of Calgary.
A developer contacted Lee Crowchild and Jim McGuiness to discuss some possible solutions. We did not have enough potable water, and they did not have a way to treat their effluent. They had potable water. As a result, by putting together our problems, we came up with a pretty unique solution. The solution is represented by this particular concept, that we would build jointly a partnership to build water and wastewater infrastructure. The utility would be funded by fees from developers and potential infrastructure grants. It would include water treatment and distribution, wastewater collection and treatment and distribution of reclaimed water.
The map on the following page outlines the area contemplated for the pilot project. The pilot project that we proposed to our members is up to 5,000 units. We have already 351 units at Redwood Meadows, our development. We have a need identified by our housing department of at least 650 new units within the nation over the next, I believe, 20 years. So we would preserve 1,000 of those 5,000 units for our own requirements. The other 4,000 would, it is proposed, be developed north of the community.
The wastewater treatment facilities would partially be on reserve. We would expand the existing system, the first phase that was developed for Redwood Meadows, which can handle 1,200 homes, as a first phase while we work through the remainder of the environmental, engineering and other land requirement issues that would bring us to that particular level.
This project has been presented to our members. They have told us to bring back a plan that shows them how it would work. A large number of environmental and engineering studies are under way presently, and that information will be taken back to our council and chief and our members. Assuming that it is a viable project that is proved by the environmental and engineering reports, we will be requesting our members' approval sometime earlier in 2006.
That concept of a shared infrastructure with a municipal district I think is a very concrete example of the kind of partnership building that this council and chief believe in. The highway project is another example of the partnership building that this council and chief believe in, and the ultimate benefit to our community, both economically, from an environmental perspective, as well as from the re-creation of our wetlands, which have been dying over the last 30 or 40 years as a result of water diversion outside of our borders where natural water sources that used to flow into our community no longer do.
We are involved in a number of issues related to the South Saskatchewan River Basin report that was tabled a week ago here in Alberta. The chief along with the other Treaty 7 chiefs have sent a letter to the premier noting their dissatisfaction with the way that report ignored the rights of First Nations in southern Alberta.
So there are a number of issues related to this particular project that will take some time, Mr. Chairman, to sort out. However, on its own merits, it has the ability to create a unique regional infrastructure that serves many needs and creates opportunities as well as solves many problems, particularly as it pertains to polluting the environment and polluting one of the main water sources for the city of Calgary, quite frankly, which they are not in a position to deal with.
Our next item, Mr. Chairman, is the economic and business development of the business park that we reside in right now. A map of the business park, which we are sitting in a portion of right now, is on the right-hand side. We are working with our partner, one of the major companies here in Calgary, CANA Developments, to start construction. We had hoped to do that in March of this year. Unfortunately, and I think this is indicative of the opening comments Councillor Dodginghorse made, we ran into a problem with having the Departments of Justice and Indian Affairs approve the original deal and land valuation that we had made on this particular development with CANA. We were required to go back and do two things: get another valuation of the land, which gives a significant increase, that is fine, that is a benefit to the nation; and find a model that this region of Justice Department federally and Indian Affairs federally were prepared to accept as a way to look at increasing values over a period of time.
In commercial development, a proponent and a partner, including the nation, need to have some certainty as to what the land rent value will be over a period of time that is longer than five years. The minimum term is usually 20 years and sometimes longer than that. If you are signing leases with tenants and there are fixed terms in those leases — we are talking here about major tenants, Home Depot, Revy, Canadian Tire, for example — they are looking for 20-year leases. If they do not get the lease they want, they are not prepared to locate on your land because they need cost certainty as well. The Departments of Indian Affairs and Justice are afraid to make any kind of decision because they have lost so many suits from First Nations about the fair market rent of land. They are almost paralyzed, which is paralyzing us. That is an issue that has to be resolved.
We finally now in this region have a team who have begun to understand what commercial value of development land really means and how you may be able to create that value to make a deal possible. Quite frankly, part of the reason we find a solution is that our board, which Councillor Dodginghorse is a member of, along with three other councillors met with the Squamish First Nation and talked about their development at Park Royal, which I believe you saw in the last day or so. They have a lease that creates that commercial value. We have asked them for copies of that. We gave it to the Indian Affairs and Justice counterparts in Edmonton. We said, "Would you please look at this; it works; it worked at B.C. with Squamish, and we believe it is a model that would be acceptable to us and to our partners." Their representative called me this morning to say that they have been reviewing it for two weeks but need one more week and will give us an answer next week. We were hoping we would get an answer, quite frankly, today. That is what has held us up. It had nothing to do with the First Nation, it had nothing to do with our commercial partner; rather, it had everything to do with either the policy or the lack thereof policy that the federal government is operating under in this particular context.
However, that said, we believe we can continue with the development, with the phases. It is a commercial retail project. It involves approximately 1 million square feet of development.
If you look at the next map, you will see on the right-hand side a section that is blue in mine — probably a dark grey in yours — that is the city of Calgary with the boundaries as it exists today. To the north of us in the lighter grey is the municipal district of Rockyview, and to the south of us, again in the lighter grey, is the municipal district of Foothills.
The reason we showed you this now rather than earlier is to help you get an idea of where we are talking about. The ring road map that we showed you runs at the eastern, or right-hand side, of the reserve boundary. Just west of the area that is outlined in blue, called the Weaselhead Preservation Area, the corner bounded by that is what we call the 940.
If you look at the next page, you will see the development concept we presented to our members in 2004. It is entitled the "Tsuu T'ina Eco-Tourism Master Plan." It contemplates a number of things. The casino, as you can see in the top right-hand corner of that area bounded by the roads, is the project that I described to you earlier and is a project that is very close to the construction start. On the right-hand side in blue, in your colour it is a little lighter grey, is what we contemplated, Mr. Chairman, to be a business park development. We presented to our members GWL Realty Advisors, that is, Great-West Life, and the B.C. pension fund. The vice-president of the B.C. pension fund made a presentation before our elders in this room in June 2004. When he was asked what the B.C. pension fund and GWL Realty Advisors were prepared to invest in this project, his answer was $1 billion. That operation has assets of over $67 billion and obviously has the wherewithal to fulfill that kind of an obligation.
With respect to the commercial area just to the left, more in the centre there, we have a market study being undertaken right now by a fairly senior market analyst within the country. While we have the concept of the commercial development both there and, to the left of it, the kidney-shaped portion on the west side of the road, we are not sure what type of commercial development best suits that area. There is commercial development immediately north of it, and about five minutes to the east of that particular location is a major mall of about 2 million square feet called Chinook. Hence, a number of market questions have to be answered. We do not expect that report to be returned back to us until the end of February. So we are not in a position yet to refine what those uses would be. We will, however, be going back to our members when the report about absorption rates within this market is complete. Right now, we are predicting somewhere between a 15-year to 20-year build-out of the whole area. The concept we have for the commercial retail and the business park is to start construction, assuming we get approval of the road project, to coincide with the opening of the road. The road, assuming approval again of the members, is projected to be completed and open in early 2010. That is 50 months from now. It is not very long.
Our planning cycle for this development would be to go through our approvals once we have the market studies refined, take the concepts for phase one development to our members for approval in principle, go back and complete the final agreements, the valuation, the business plan and all the other elements that go into that, and go back to our members for final approval, most likely in early 2007, because those developments will be predicated or based on what exactly happens with the ring road.
There is another part of the master plan, and it talks about the heritage centre. We talked about regional malls, the business park, so I will not cover those slides again. The eco-tourism master plan also has a heritage centre concept. It is a world-class facility. The heritage centre will provide eco-tourism and education for all ages and nationalities, a showcase for Tsuu T'ina art, history and culture, and a tourism destination for European and Asian markets.
The key to this development — and our members have told us this — is that our members do not want to partner for the centre. Hence, we are prepared to wait until the revenue streams from other developments kick in to fund this particular centre. Right now, the estimated cost of this project would be $40 million, in 2005 dollars. In terms of how things will flow, we could be into the planning cycle in about 2009, knowing that by 2010 and 2011 the revenue flow from the casino and other projects that kick in would be available to service that particular capital cost. I think that was a prudent step on the part of our members and our elders. It makes absolute sense that this be both a world-class facility and totally ours.
As you can see, the plan is a very aggressive one. It would be the largest business development park in Canada. We say it would be the largest development project in Canadian history, but I know we are probably challenged by our friends both in Squamish and in Fort McKay, where there are very unique deep-water port development plans for a huge tar sands development, which are not quite the same sort of things. Theirs are more industrial. So we will stick with that line.
We expect to create between 15,000 and 20,000 new jobs. We would receive approval for the final phases from our membership. We have already had one vote giving us approval in principle on this. There has been a large discussion and debate. The cultural shift is toward economic integration.
While developers, provincial authorities and business partners have recognized the potential of Tsuu T'ina development, significant federal obstacles have slowed implementation. These obstacles include provisions of the Indian Act that do not reflect modern business practices and realities, as well as officials charged with administering the act and reviewing project applications who are not experts in the field of business.
Our message to the government through this committee is quite simple: If the growth of commerce and economic self-sufficiency is the government's goal, then it must adopt legislation, regulation and professional protocols to meet the demands of modern business.
Mr. Chairman, that concludes our formal presentation, but I would like to add a few more comments about an initiative that we are involved in partnership with four other First Nations. It is called the First Nations Commercial Industrial Development Initiative. Squamish is one of our partners, Fort McKay is another, the Carry the Kettle First Nation in Saskatchewan is the fourth, and the final proponent is the First Nation from Fort William in Ontario.
The commercial development initiative, very simply, is a tool. It is a tool that we have requested the federal government put in place to allow us to carry out these kinds of complex commercial undertakings. There are many things that can be done without FNCIDA — the proposed First Nations Commercial and Industrial Development Act — but there are many other things that cannot be. One of the benefits FNCIDA is harmonization, by mirroring provincial regulations, and I want everybody to clearly understand it is a mirror. We are not adopting provincial regulations. We are creating federal regulations that would apply on reserve that mirror existing provincial regulations. We are not talking about regulations for everything or everywhere. We are talking about project-specific regulations that are specific to that particular piece of land; for example, if we needed it for this development here, which is 175 acres — although we are not contemplating the use of FNCIDA for this development. We do not believe we need it.
Finally, the protection FNCIDA affords is that it is time-specific, that your agreement, the regulations you create here, would only be for the period of time that the project exists, and if there is a decision in the future, 40 years, 75 years, or 99 years, where the leases would be looked at, the community at that time would also have to decide whether they want to continue with those regulations.
The final piece of this puzzle is informed consent of your members, that each proposal would have to come from a First Nation and that, ultimately, in the way we do business here at Tsuu T'ina, it would be part of a package that would go back to our members for approval through a referendum vote.
Therefore, we feel pretty comfortable here, and we believe the way the proposed legislation has been drafted — we saw it on Monday, although obviously we could not keep a copy; we were locked down and we had a chance to look at it — accurately reflects what we asked for. It is about 12 clauses long and essentially just creates the ability for the federal government at the request of a First Nation to undertake that particular set of regulations and development. So it is a tool, as I said. It does not deal with land issues. It does not deal with money issues. It does not deal with constitutional issues. It just deals with how to go about creating an environment that is acceptable to investors and acceptable to partners and obviously acceptable to First Nations. We believe this will work.
One final point that I know senators are concerned with — certainly Senator Watt is. We have spoken to him twice already. We have arranged for a meeting with him next week, either prior to or just after the introduction in the House — which is scheduled for November 2, I am told, right now. The matter I refer to is non-derogation, which, I understand, the Senate prides itself carefully looking at. We respect that.
The way we propose to deal with the non-derogation clause in this particular piece of legislation is to allow for non-derogation of Aboriginal treaty rights to be provided for in the regulation, not necessarily in the legislation. What it says is the bill would provide that a non-derogation or abrogation of treaty and Aboriginal rights would be provided for in the regulations. The point here and the key thing to understand about why it is being proposed this way is that if you did provide for absolute non-derogation or abrogation in the legislation it could prohibit the creation of certain regulations because they might infringe on some specific treaty or Aboriginal right. We were asked a question yesterday by Senator Watt's assistant — he asked, "How would that infringe on my rights as a treaty Indian?" — and the answer we gave him is there would be no infringement at all unless you agreed to it in a very specific way.
So while we do not know precisely what that might be, we are told by our legal advisors that the adoption of certain regulations could, not will, but could, create a situation where on a particular project there might be a possibility of the abrogation or derogation of certain Aboriginal treaty rights. The point that we make here is that each First Nation has to make a decision at that stage, along with the federal government, as to whether that possibility is outweighed by the benefit of that particular project. The concept you have to understand is if it is 175 acres here, and you are wrestling with the concept, it only applies to that 175 acres, it only applies for the project, and it only lasts for the length of the lease. It has to be put in place with the consent of the members, and ultimately it does not apply to any other reserve lands within a community or any other reserve. It is project-specific.
Hence, believe the protections that are built into this proposed legislation and how we propose to deal with non-derogation are matters that should be acceptable to the Senate. As I said, we have spoken to Senator Watt. I met Tuesday with a couple of senators, Senator Losier-Cool and Senate Robichaud. We met with them yesterday. We have meetings on Monday with Senator Joyal, and we have asked for meetings with additional senators that have been suggested, simply so that we have time to explain this in more detail.
Mr. Chairman, that is the final issue I wanted to raise with senators this morning, to make them aware of the fact that this proposed legislation, with our support, is proceeding to the house. On September 14, a letter from our five chiefs was sent to all their colleagues in Canada. To date, we have received no negative responses to that outreach. We have received a number of inquiries for additional information. We have also received a number of inquiries from First Nations asking, "How do we get involved in this because it is something we think will work for us?"
We received the unanimous resolution of support from the Atlantic Canada chiefs about four weeks ago. That was made available to senators and parliamentarians we have met with. As well, we are currently preparing a bill kit, with an additional letter signed by all of our five chiefs to go out again to all of their colleagues. The kit will include the bill itself, the overview letter that we are sending, as well as an explanation of how we are dealing with non-derogation.
With that, Mr. Chairman, I will take any questions that you might have.
The Chairman: Thank you very much for your presentation. We have four other groups scheduled to appear before us this morning. In the interests of getting our business done this morning — your presentation was very comprehensive. If there are any questions, would it be possible for senators either to talk to you at a later time, at lunchtime or later today, in private?
Mr. Dodginghorse: We can make our boardrooms available upstairs if you wanted to break away.
The Chairman: Thank you very much.
Our next delegation is representatives of Treaty 7 Management Corporation.
Please proceed.
Edwina Stump, Chief Executive Officer, Treaty 7 Management Corporation: Thank you. I will do the introduction, following which my counterpart will do the presentation.
First, I wish to welcome all of you to the Treaty 7 area and thank you for inviting the Treaty 7 Management Corporation here to address the committee.
For your background and reference, Treaty 7 Management Corporation was formerly known as the Treaty 7 Tribal Council. Its mandate is to provide advisory service to all the First Nations that comprise the Treaty 7 region, which is the Bearspaw, Blood, which is known as the Kainaiwa, Chiniki, Piikani, Siksika, Tsuu T'ina and Wesley nations. I wish to discuss with this committee an undertaking that was held in our area and participated in by some of our people, and with that I will hand it over to our economic development officer.
Ryan Robb, Business Development Officer, Treaty 7 Management Corporation: In July, a conference entitled "An Open Discussion on Economic Development" was hosted in Calgary jointly by INAC and WABA — the Western Aboriginal Business Association. WABA is a new group that counts several chiefs as well as industry leaders, both Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal, as members. Predominantly, WABA works in the resource sector, just owing to where we live and the groups we work with.
This conference included four federal ministers, Blondin-Andrew, Barnes, Stronach and Emerson, one provincial minister, Calahasen, and numerous industry leaders from the resource sector. To our knowledge, this conference was unprecedented in its strength of influential attendees.
The conference examined three topics and how they affected Aboriginal people. I think it is germane to our conversation today to touch on some of the highlights that came out of this conference. There are full accounts of these discussions. They are available on Treaty 7's website, which is www.treaty7.org. However, I wish to recap for this committee some of the questions and comments that emerged from these meetings.
The first topic was labour strategy, and we posed this question: "In light of the growth in the resource sector, industry is facing a critical shortage of skilled labour. Aboriginal peoples typically are a larger portion of the population in the areas of development and could increase their participation in the resource sector. What strategies might be adopted to capitalize effectively on the opportunities afforded?"
Some critical comments that came out of this discussion on that question included the following: Stakeholders should focus on the return on inclusion of Aboriginal people — a play on ROI, which is a standard economic term for return on investment — that is, a return on inclusion of adding First Nation people working with First Nations. Policy issues should take into account regional economic differences. There are regional economic differences from the East Coast to those that First Nations Aboriginal groups will face in the northern part of this province, from B.C., from the southern part of this province. It is important for all levels of government to work together, to get rid of the overlap, and to focus on programs that are working well — best practices, if you will, not duplication. Excessive red tape suffocates entrepreneurship, and the approval process in government programs is too slow. Finally, increased education is the key to increasing Aboriginal participation in the labour force.
The second topic that we discussed was on-reserve and on-settlement investment. The question posed on that topic was the following: "From an industry and community perspective, what are the challenges facing investment on-reserve or on-settlement and what can government do to stimulate private investment?"
Some of the critical comments coming from this question included the following: Social services spending does not cure social ills. Focus should be on economic development, yet INAC has cut economic development funding. Industry will require financial certainty on land leases to invest on reserve. In addition to this, the security of on-reserve private investment is required. From a First Nations perspective, business ideals and entitlement ideals are contradictory to each other. First Nations government stability is required to attract investment. Federal involvement in business takes too long and is therefore prohibitive to investment.
The third and final question we discussed at this conference was business culture for First Nations and Metis people, and the question posed was this: "A number of successful Aboriginal businesses and business people already work proactively in the resource sector. What can be done to grow these successes? What needs to be done to get better traction for a business culture on-reserve?"
Some of the critical comments that came out from this discussion were as follows: First Nations are suffering from something called "fiduciary paralysis." First Nations are afraid to make decisions because of how it may impact their treaty rights or government's obligations to them. INAC's former equity funding program allowed for some nations to become partners in endeavours such as drilling rigs. These Aboriginal partnership rigs perform as well or better than other rigs in the same fields. The cancellation of INAC's equity funding program with no replacement now excludes other nations from realizing their same potential. First Nations must be able to offer to industry stable leadership and properly qualified and educated people. Supporting and examining the research of "best-practices groups" should be a focus point. It is not only the dollars but the knowledge of how to achieve success that is required for First Nations to succeed. Aboriginal Peoples should share and celebrate their successes. This would not only change the attitudes of how Aboriginal see themselves but also how industry and the public would see them, too. There needs to be consistent policy interpretation within INAC and other federal departments.
So, again, full accounts of these discussions and comments are available on our website. One of the main underlining themes of this conference was that the cancellation of INAC's equity funding program has and will continue to have a terrible impact on First Nations throughout not only Treaty 7 but also the country.
More specifically, First Nations wishing to participate in joint ventures and partnerships with large-scale extraction, which means oil and gas, predominantly mineral companies, corporations, will require access to equity funding. To my knowledge, to date there has been no contact by any of the offices of the ministers present at that meeting, which was in July, with any of the First Nations groups that participated.
Those were general items to Aboriginal groups and our observations. We have some that are more specific to Treaty 7 Management that I would like to go through quickly if I could as well.
The former Treaty 7 Tribal Council, and now Treaty 7 Management Corporation, worked very closely with different federal departments, such as Health Canada and INAC, and over this time it has been our experience that it is consistently difficult to pursue funds for our project-based endeavours. These project-based endeavours are separate from our program files such as housing, education and health, and instead focus on our business lines. So I will term those "project based" for now.
For example, we have been working closely with INAC for over four years now on one of their highest profile projects, the re-engineering of the IRS, the Indian Registry System — it involves putting it all into a database — as well as the development of a new high-security status card. We were recently awarded a deputy minister's award for creativity and innovation for this project, and we have been mentioned favourably in the Auditor General's report on this project.
In spite of these accolades, this project is consistently funded in six-month increments, with promise of continuation coming sometimes as late as the week before completion of that six months and the actual funding itself coming as late as four and a half months into the six-month funding cycle. This obviously creates an HR nightmare, for our business lines to try to run as a business, for our staff, not to mention that it forces us to cash manage these projects for many months, four and a half months into a six-month project — hardly good business practices.
So, in closing, by our own rough estimates the federal government's expenditures on First Nations is in excess of $7 billion, yet less than 5 per cent of this money is spent on economic development. When study after study and committee after committee confirm that one of the keys to closing the gap between the disparity between Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal Canadians is to increase economic development for Aboriginal Peoples, then we think the question that should be asked is this: Is 5 per cent of $7 billion the proper ratio to achieve this?
Thank you for the opportunity to address this committee. I am not sure if you have questions at this time or not.
The Chairman: Thank you very much.
Senator St. Germain: It is nice to be in Treaty 7, and we appreciate the fact that you have welcomed us here. Basically, Ms. Stump and Mr. Robb, we are hearing the same thing right across the country, the delays, the inability, the cutbacks in funding. We heard in northern B.C., where $1 million was allocated to a particular nation for welfare and yet they could only get $87,000 for economic development.
The suggestion has been made, and has any in-depth study been done by Aboriginals in really thinking how you could replace INAC or just get rid of the department? Unless you get rid of the monster, it keeps attacking you or failing to fulfill its obligations. We have to start thinking outside the box. As I said yesterday, if you always do what you always did, you will always get what you always got.
Harold Calla from the Squamish band has talked to me on several occasions, because I happen to be from British Columbia, about the initiatives he is working on with the Tsuu T'ina band here in regards to an expediting process by way of legislation. I am not trying to put you on the spot, but unless we think outside the box and you give us ideas — there is a certain segment of our Aboriginal community that is apprehensive about getting rid of DIAND because they figure they do not know where they will go from there.
That is why I look at the leaders, the people like yourselves in this area, Calla in B.C., those in Fort McKay, and all these people. We have got to come up with a formula provides the comfort and understanding to those who are apprehensive, if we are to go forward and make a recommendation, become really forceful with government, and say, "Look it, it is time to get rid of this thing."
In Northern Ontario, the problem we have got there is partly, I am sure, DIAND. I am convinced it is. So that is my question, and if you do not want to answer it, it is your call. I think we have got to think outside the box and think differently.
Mr. Robb: Thank you, senator. You are right, that is kind of a loaded question to answer. As a matter of fact, Harold Calla and his chief Gibby Jacob, as well as Chief Jimmy Boucher from Fort McKay, are WABA members. WABA is one group that is trying to accomplish things as you say.
Some of the First Nations, like those two, are starting to recognize that INAC may need to provide different services to different nations. Some groups are doing better — either because of good management or pure luck in terms of the minerals they sit over or have access to. In talking with people such as those two, if there were a better mechanism for First Nations success stories or for First Nations best practices to be put forth, that would be definitely a positive aspect.
One of the other issues that I know arises over and over again, as you say, is that government is not in the business of being in business. Bureaucrats, by their very definition, are not good businessmen, or will not be good businessmen. This becomes a concern when INAC sets up economic development programs or uses mentoring programs, with bureaucrats leading or designing them.
If you engage some of the success stories, like Osoyoos, Squamish, Fort McKay, Fort Chipewyan, those are the type of groups you should be working with. Those are the types of groups that should be working with other First Nations to say, "Listen, this is how it needs to be done."
In my mind, you are absolutely right. You can become complacent. As one chiefs commented with respect to fiduciary paralysis, it is sometimes better to be with the devil you know than the devil you do not know. As more and more First Nations excel and do better, and those stories get out, more and more First Nations will demand that their leadership take some of those type of directions.
Senator St. Germain: The troublesome thing is that if we do not move quickly a lot of young Aboriginals will miss an opportunity, and we will lose the opportunity to train them and get them productive in our society. We have to move a lot quicker than we have traditionally. You people who have the success stories — and we have a responsibility, there is no question, I am not trying to skirt our responsibility as parliamentarians. We also have to have the support of people like yourselves in pushing for these changes that I think are necessary.
The Chairman: Thank you both, Ms Stump and Mr. Robb, for your presentation. Thank you very much.
Our next witness is from the Athabasca Tribal Council, Roy Vermillion.
Please begin, Mr. Vermillion.
Roy Vermillion, Chief Executive Officer, Athabasca Tribal Council: Thank you, chairman. First of all, I would like to thank the Senate for inviting Athabasca Tribal Council to participate in these hearings. Chief Jim Boucher's name was mentioned a couple of times. He is chief of the Fort McKay First Nation. He was invited but unable to attend; it is the same case with respect to the vice chief of our tribal council. Hence, they asked if I would make this presentation, and I am honoured to be here.
The Athabasca Tribal Council is made up of five First Nations, one of which is the Mikisew Cree Nation, in Fort Chipewyan. I am a member of that nation.
In my presentation to you, I wish to cover four general areas. First of all, I want to give you some background on the Athabasca Tribal Council and let you know that this presentation is a holistic view of economic development and business development in our tribal council. We look at economic development as being part of the process of overall community development, a holistic approach to developing our communities, which also includes business development.
The second area I would like to talk about is some of the success factors that we have seen along the way, some of the obstacles that we have seen in our community development and some of the future challenges for the Athabasca Tribal Council. I am hoping that some of the thoughts I present will have some impact on other communities in Canada, and I think that was the intent of this presentation.
On the first page of my written presentation, you will see a map of the Athabasca Tribal Council. The two previous presenters were from Treaty 7 in the south; we are at the opposite end of the province, northeastern Alberta, within the regional municipality of Wood Buffalo, one of the largest municipalities in North America. The five First Nations are as follows: two to the north, the Mikisew Cree First Nation and the Athabasca Chipewyan First Nation; Fort McKay First Nation, in the centre of oil sands development, and that is where Chief Jim Boucher is from; and the two southern First Nations, Fort McMurray First Nation and Chipewyan Prairie First Nation.
We need to know our past, to move forward in the future. To give you a sense of our economy in the Athabasca Tribal Council area, on the right side of the diagram on page 2, and to the east, is traditional lifestyle. Our people were independent, self-sustaining people prior to European contact, and that was a good time in our past. If we move over to the fur trade industry, to the south, again, our people were very independent, almost small businessmen. They had their own trap lines. They lived that life for a few hundred years, trading with fur traders and living a good life. Moving to the other side of the diagram, we see government services. Back in the mid-1900s, the 1950s and up until today, government services, a state of dependence on government, and some of that is in effect today. At the top of the diagram, you will see oil sands industry. Today, we are moving toward some state of independence again, with the oil sands industry opportunities that we have in our area, and that has impact on all five First Nations.
We are guided by the Athabasca Tribal Council vision, which all five First Nations support. That vision is as follows: "In unity with the Athabasca Tribal Council we have obtained our true value as healthy, productive and proud Cree and Dene people." That guides all of the business that we undertake at the tribal council.
Some of the success factors related to economic development are as follows. Strong leadership is the first. Some of our communities and chiefs, like Chief Jim Boucher and others, were referenced as displaying strong and consistent leadership. They have been in there for a long period of time, and they separate governance from administration. It is very good to have that kind of leadership to work with; it benefits our communities all the way down to the everyday citizen.
Unity amongst our communities, amongst our First Nations, all working together is another success factor. Another is the fact that we are very adaptive peoples. Earlier on, in the fur trade industry, we were nomadic people. We had to adapt to the needs of our way of life. So we moved to where the animals were, where the food was, and that adaptability continues today, taking advantage of the opportunities that face us in our area.
Other factors include providing information and assistance to our people in starting up and maintaining businesses. With all the opportunity, there are many who want to undertake business directly with the oil sands, as well as the forest industry. Our tribal council gets some funding, and we have staff members that are communicating economic development information and opportunities to our peoples. These are some of our successes.
Our businesses support each other. We have an association up in northeastern Alberta, the Northeastern Alberta Aboriginal Business Association. Our people, individual businesses as well as the First Nations, and the work that they do, the people, administration and program people at tribal council and First Nations, have strong determination and work hard to succeed at their jobs and businesses.
We have some government support for economic development and business development, but not very much of it, as mentioned earlier. What we do get, we try to use wisely. The CEDO — Community Economic Development Organization — dollars we get are not enough to support even one person in our communities. So very little money there, but we try to use it as best we can.
Another success factor is the positive and respectful relationships we have established with our stakeholders, a lot of the industry players as well as the municipality, the provincial and federal governments. The industry partners have Aboriginal quotas for business opportunities. They have a certain target that they work with for the numbers of Aboriginal businesses they will employ as well as the number of Aboriginal people they will employ within their operations.
Presently, we have an all-party core agreement, a three-year agreement that comes to an end this year. This is the second three-year agreement. That arrangement focuses on capacity building within our communities. There is a need for employment and training programs. Also, some of that funding deals with regional social and environmental issues so that we have the capacity to deal with the impacts of industrial development.
Another success is that the stakeholders acknowledge the traditional territory of the First Nations people, and there is plenty of opportunity. We live in a land where there is a lot of opportunity, and the supply is not meeting the demand. If people want to work, there is a lot of opportunity for them to work and start a business.
As is true of other places where there is development, there are obstacles that come along with development. There are social and environmental impacts, alcohol, drugs and other addictions. I do not want to paint a bad picture. There are for sure some problems there, but we are dealing and having some success with those addictions.
Another obstacle is the challenge to keep up with progress and development. For our First Nations people to keep pace with everybody else that wants to take advantage is a challenging thing. Another obstacle in our communities is the have and have-nots imbalance. There are a lot of individuals that have become wealthy, and there are a lot of individuals who are still maintaining low social standards within our communities. There is a need to balance those.
I mentioned earlier the issue of minimal government economic development funding. Another obstacle is a highly competitive business environment. Both native and non-native people are continually competing, trying to get a piece of the pie in our area. For our First Nations people to take advantage, they really have to be on top of things.
As well, there is limited technical capacity in areas of managing businesses as well as administrative management backgrounds, trades, career jobs. There is limited capacity in that area. Limited education is another obstacle. We have problems with our K to 12 education system, and many of our people are in adult education programs. Those are some of the problems facing us today, as well as lack of personal equity amongst our people. Another obstacle is Aboriginal companies competing against each other. Industry sometimes takes advantage of that and gives business opportunities to the lowest bidders, which has an impact on our people in not getting high benefits for the business and work that they do.
With all of these successes and obstacles, we see some future opportunities and challenges for ourselves. As I said earlier, some of these probably affect other areas in Canada. There is a need for planning and implementing community plans, including economic development, as well as looking at all the education and social infrastructure needs of the communities. We are striving to build strong, healthy communities in our area. There is a need for everybody, the First Nations as well as the stakeholders and government, to respect our culture and traditions. That was mentioned earlier. There is a need to provide technical and moral support to each other. Businesses that are working with each other need to work together to provide support so that we all succeed.
With respect to our roles within our own organization, our First Nations, as well as with our stakeholders, have to be defined so that we can better understand and work together with each other. In terms of policies that support the balance between individual and collective business interests, policy and legislation was raised earlier. We see the need for that so that the have-nots can be addressed.
There is need for our people to take advantage of the many opportunities. We also have a lot of other tribal councils that would like to come in our traditional area and take advantage of jobs and businesses, so we are establishing partnerships with other groups. As well, in order to face the competition, we have to come up with a lot of innovative ways of taking advantage of economic development.
The federal government should be playing a facilitator role, and they have been, to a large extent, and there is a need for that to continue.
I already mentioned about the guidelines to support Aboriginal business as well as employment. Our private-sector stakeholders, the industry people, have been doing this, and it would be nice for them to continue. The percentage of our Aboriginal population in the area is the guideline they use. They would like to give that much employment as well as that much business opportunity.
Provincial resources, there is a need for the province to kick in resources. A lot of our people live off-reserve and pay taxes like other Canadian citizens. Hence, the province has an obligation to provide benefits to our First Nations people.
We are presently working on a long-term benefits agreement with industry and all levels of government. This is presently being negotiated, so I cannot say too much about that.
With all these opportunities, we still need to maintain our treaty rights, so when we gain self-sufficiency, if we ever get there, that does not mean our treaty rights will be neglected. There is a need to maintain that.
At ATC, we strive to maintain respect, honesty and integrity while we try to achieve our vision of self-sufficiency.
If you have any questions, I would be happy to answer.
Senator Zimmer: Sir, thank you for your presentation. In it you mention minimum government economic development funding. You also mention have and have-not imbalances, and you also mention considering or partnership opportunities with other tribal councils. My question is this: Given that there is strength in numbers, have you done any partnerships with other First Nations or non-Aboriginal groups? Are there any plans in the works to do that, and, if so, exactly what areas are you looking at?
Mr. Vermillion: Oil sands development took off in the mid-1990s, as you are aware, in our area, with the government backing of investors of oil sands. The same thing with our communities, although it was probably a little bit later that they began to take advantage of those opportunities. Our First Nations do partner with each other as First Nations. I should mention also that it is our First Nations that take advantage of economic development. There is not a corporate arm to the Tribal council; however, there is discussion to head that way so that we can serve the collective. However, it is First Nations partnering with First Nations; as well, some of our First Nations partner with the Metis as well as outside of the tribal council First Nations. There is a lot of activity between First Nations and non-First Nations companies and limited partnerships. Hence, it is benefiting our First Nations business-wise as well as benefiting people for employment opportunities with those companies that are formed.
There is a lot of opportunity, but there is no organized plan, which is why we need to develop a strong community development plan that includes economic development. I do not know if I answered your question.
Senator Zimmer: Yes, you did. Can you give some more examples, though, in terms of how successful they have been and what they have generated?
Mr. Vermillion: Most of the companies that get started continue today because there is so much opportunity in our area with Suncor and Syncrude and Shell and CNRL, all those major oil sands companies. Most of them are successful. Some of them, where the individuals do not have the drive, the motivation, the commitment, may not be successful. If the interest is not there, then they may shut down or stop the business or the activity.
Senator Christensen: You are representing five First Nations who are certainly in an area that is allowing you to increase and develop a number of economic development projects. Our report will be addressing the obstacles to economic development for First Nations, but I think it will also be a report that will give a blueprint of hope to First Nations who are trying to find ways of becoming more self-sufficient and having economic development. There is often the perspective that if we get economic development then all of the things that have been a problem in our area will disappear, and those of us that have been involved in this know that that is not necessarily true.
Could you give us a bit of history of what you have seen in the five First Nation communities as economic development has come in, what the changes have been? They do not happen overnight. They are slow. Economic development does not mean to say all the problems are solved. Could you give us a bit of a time line?
Mr. Vermillion: Sure. As I said, oil sands has really progressed in the last 10 or 15 years, since the mid 1990s — prior to that, Syncrude in late 1970s. That benefits all our five First Nations, even though they might be 100 miles away. Our people gradually have become involved either through employment or starting a small business and expanding. For example, the individual who runs Tuc's Contracting is probably a multi-millionaire now.
So gradually, over time, our communities have become involved. As I said earlier, a lot of individual businesses, individual members, take advantage, and that benefit goes to those individuals. They employ their own relatives and their own members sometimes, so it benefits some of the membership. First Nations also will take advantage. The First Nations have corporate arms themselves. They have groups of companies, and they employ their own people as much as possible. So it is a gradual progress to taking advantage of the opportunity and partnering with the companies as well as having a good relationship with those major industries up there.
Senator Christensen: Are you seeing more young persons in the five areas graduating from high school? How is it affecting the elders in your community? Are they benefiting?
Mr. Vermillion: Some of the elders take advantage, say, by participating with a business. Some of them, including their relatives, are in business, so they also participate. However, in terms of the young people, there are still struggles with K to 12 education. It is only in the last 10 or 20 years that this big impact has come upon us. Our people, I believe, are gradually seeing the value of education and training employment and getting good career jobs. It is a struggle, a slow process, but our leadership and the people working for First Nations and the tribal council see that there is a need to get organized and educate everyone, educate all of the mass First Nations, the 4,500 people that live in that area, and take advantage. The oil sands are a non-renewable resource. In 50 years, there will not be anything, so we had better take advantage now.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: Mr. Vermillion, what percentage of women own businesses in your community?
Mr. Vermillion: That is a good question. My observations are that very few First Nation women are into business. I know of about three businesses offhand, where they provide general labour and a car wash to Syncrude, those kind of services to industry, but it is mostly males that take advantage of business opportunities, the male First Nations group.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: Do you think the reason for that is that the women in your community have a harder time to come up with the percentage of loans they have to put down on business ventures?
Mr. Vermillion: I would say that affects the women as well as the men. People do not have much equity to start up businesses, and some do not have the interest or the background. Also, the role of the women in our area may be different. Many are at home with children, while the men go out and work. However, I guess that is changing as well. Even though women may not own businesses, a lot of them are employed amongst the First Nations and amongst the industries.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: I have one more question for you. You mentioned education. Do you have your own educational institute in your community?
Mr. Vermillion: We have five First Nations, and one of our First Nations has a band-operated school. The other First Nations are all provided service by the provincial education system. However, our communities are majority First Nations, so they have a lot of input into what happens even in those provincial systems. They have their own struggles, as I said earlier, but we try to look at the successes we have and build upon them. If we can do that, then it will make it more successful for our tribal council members.
The Chairman: You have come from quite a long ways, the northern part of the province, so thank you for being with us today.
Mr. Vermillion: Thank you very much.
The Chairman: Our next witnesses are from the Sunchild E-Learning Community. We have with us Nelson Daychief, Harry Goodrunning and Martin Sacher.
Please begin, if you will, with your presentation.
Harry Goodrunning, Education Portfolio Holder, Sunchild First Nation, Sunchild E-Learning Community: Good morning, senators. I want to begin by saying that it is an honour to be in front of such a prestigious group of people.
I am an elected council member of my First Nation, the Sunchild First Nation, which is just northwest of where we are. To the left of me is Education Director Nelson Daychief, and to the left of him is Martin Sacher, who is the principal and CEO of the Sunchild E-Learning Community.
There exists today a systemic problem with First Nation education. First Nations education continues to be unable to provide consistent quality instruction and quality educators to its people in urban areas, especially in remote rural locations. The system continues to be unaccountable for its results and continues to call for a greater expenditure of public dollars to fund a system that is presently ineffective.
The current system continues to be inflexible in its approach to First Nations and continues to not address the culture of First Nations people. The country can no longer afford to allow countless thousands of First Nations people to remain uneducated. The system must change and change immediately.
Through the avenue of the Sunchild E-Learning model, the education program can be addressed. The Auditor General's report continuously criticizes the First Nations education system. The report once again speaks of the 28-year gap between the public system and the First Nations system. We know that through the proper implementation of the Sunchild E-Learning model this gap can easily be cut by less than 10 years.
Through the Sunchild E-Learning model, First Nations people can be guaranteed higher course completion and graduation rates. The model is accountable, is flexible, is culturally constructed, is supported by a process, and is financially more prudent than a traditional educational delivery. This model has demonstrated its positive impact in reality for the past five years in over a dozen reserves in Alberta.
The Sunchild E-Learning model when implemented will serve as a benchmark for all of Canada to properly track for the first time First Nations academic success, thereby working to make education for First Nations even more successful.
In conclusion, let me refer to then Minister Jane Stewart's white paper on First Nations education: "A broad-based, accessible, comprehensive learning system must be a prominent feature of the country's learning infrastructure." The Sunchild E-Learning model is the learning infrastructure, and we encourage you to take a closer look at the Sunchild model.
Aboriginal economic development study: The Sunchild E-Learning Community has demonstrated beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Sunchild E-Learning model when applied properly will significantly increase high school graduation rates. This success is verified in a soon-to-be-released Conference Board of Canada study that evaluated the Sunchild E-Learning program. Part of the study identifies and makes recommendations to the provincial and federal levels of government that the Sunchild E-Learning model can be a significant part of the solution in closing the 20-year educational gap that exists between public education and First Nations education.
The correlation between economic development and education is synonymous for economic development to take hold, and for success to occur in economic development there needs to be a program in place that deals with education.
Issues: The historic situation with regard to the deplorable high school student retention and graduation rates; the statement from the Auditor General 2004 on the distressing record of Canada when it comes to First Nations student school success and graduation rates; and a skilled Aboriginal labour force to meet trade industry needs.
Background: Sunchild E-Learning Community was the first First Nation on-line school in Canada, and has the potential to deliver education programs to students across Canada and beyond. Sunchild E-Learning Community on-line cyber school is in its fifth year of delivering programs to Alberta First Nations communities. Sunchild E-Learning Community is a private, not-for-profit, incorporated and registered grade 7 to 12 Alberta school designed to adapt and deliver on-line, provincially accredited high school and post-secondary programs of study. Through the Sunchild E-Learning school, a student adult can obtain his or her entire high school diploma.
The Sunchild E-Learning Community model was developed to, first, ensure that First Nations students have access to economic programs that may not be available in their school or community; ensure that First Nations students have access to quality and experienced teachers; provide an accountable system for student academic achievement; provide a system that is flexible and sensitive to First Nations; address the need to maintain student enrolments on home reserves by providing access to programs and instructions; and improve the success and graduation rates of senior high school students.
Many schools in First Nations in rural communities do not have sufficient student numbers to offer subjects in traditional classes or to warrant the cost of employing subject area teachers, making Sunchild E-Learning Community a viable option because the cost of e-learning delivery is a fraction of the traditional approach.
Several oil and gas sector companies recognize both the education success of the Sunchild E-Learning Community and the huge potential in First Nations communities to meet looming labour force needs. The Canadian economy has been booming for several years, and there is a critical and desperate shortage of skilled labour in various sectors, most particularly in the western provinces.
To remediate any deficiencies and to improve the delivery model, Sunchild E-Learning Community requested the Conference Board of Canada to conduct an evaluation study, financially and jointly supported by Indian and Northern Affairs Canada and Alberta Learning. Government supports the notion that on-line learning can significantly help address the specific education and economic needs of First Nations people. However, there is little evidence of follow-up action.
Considerations: Over the past four years, the high school graduation rate for students studying with Sunchild E-Learning is approximately 75 per cent, which is a phenomenal achievement when compared with the 5 per cent to 20 per cent graduation rate for Aboriginal students in other school districts jurisdictions.
Auditor General Sheila Fraser in her latest report recognized the deplorable record of INAC First Nations and public education jurisdictions when it comes to secondary school graduates by stating that, at the current rate, it will take 28 years to close the education gap between Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal students.
Sunchild E-Learning Community was an educational option in 16 Alberta communities this past year and will be delivering programs to over 20 communities in 2005-2006 year. Financial assistance to subsidize the cost of delivery in communities has been received from several oil and gas sector corporations who have enjoyed a relationship with the individual communities who have formed partnerships with Sunchild E-Learning Community. However, this well-received support is short term and non-continuous.
The Sunchild E-Learning Community model is a platform chosen to deliver trades-related training, as evidenced by memoranda of understanding with SAIT and the National Aboriginal Achievement Foundation.
The Conference Board of Canada recently completed an evaluation study of the Sunchild E-Learning Community and has concluded that the Sunchild E-Learning Community presents a unique First Nation-oriented, learner-centered and cost-effective education service that delivers positive education results. The Sunchild E-Learning Community has, during its five-year history, established a record of student retention and academic achievements that has to be the envy of every other education jurisdiction serving First Nation students.
Governments are focused on filling the labour force void with immigrant workers rather than directing attention and resources to the domestic First Nation labour force potential.
Sunchild E-Learning Community was recognized in the July 5 edition of Time Magazine as one of four programs in Canada that is innovative in finding new and exciting ways to bring energy and excitement to education, and a winner of the 2005 Conference Board of Canada award for community education.
Conclusions and recommendations: The Conference Board of Canada believes that Sunchild E-Learning Community is in a strong position to provide an effective solution to the estimated 28-year education gap between the First Nations and the general society. The CBC study also strongly encourages governments to have a close look at the Sunchild E-Learning Community model and how it can contribute to desired First Nation education outcomes. The study also recognizes the need for longer-term sustainable funding to support Sunchild E-Learning Community if governments recognize the model has merit in addressing First Nation education needs. With adequate sustainable funding, Sunchild E-Learning Community can be the educational option to provide solutions to First Nations education needs and to First Nation industry sector workforce skills development.
In conclusion, honourable senators, let me say that the two gentlemen sitting beside me are here to answer any of your questions. They are the technical people, the designers of the program. So if you have any questions, I shall direct them to them. As part of that, I also want to say that the opportunities that are available to First Nation members related to economic development ventures and future opportunities for our students rest on their education.
Senator St. Germain: Thank you, gentlemen, for attending here this morning and for making your presentation on something that should be the cornerstone of all our Aboriginal communities as far as establishing a high level of education for our Aboriginal youth. Councillor Goodrunning, you mentioned that Jane Stewart endorsed this. I happen to be from the opposition side, but I still give credit where credit is due, and Jane Stewart was prepared to listen. She really did listen. She listened to everybody. I am wondering whether it is the department or government itself that is failing to listen to you, to grab on to something that seems to have received the stamp of approval from the Conference Board and is basically in line with what the Auditor General said. Are you having trouble getting through the system? Where does the province sit on this whole thing — because the province is the deliverer of education in certain cases, yet DIAND is responsible for everything regarding Indians, and obviously it is not working? So could you make a comment on that, please?
Nelson Daychief, Chairman of the Board and Education Director, Sunchild E-Leaning Community: I guess one of the problems that we face today with the E-Learning program is there is not any policy in place that recognizes the program as it is right now. There are no funding sources available. It is a new way of educating students, but it is, as Harry mentioned, an alternative, one part of the solution. It will be a while before the government is able to come up with policies concerning E-Learning or on-line schools. What we are looking for is sustainability of funding, to be able to continue on. As Harry mentioned, the corporations are only there for a short term. They want to look at the second step of what they expected us to do, which is to train into the post-secondary program eventually.
Senator St. Germain: One of the big things that came out of meetings the chairman and I have had with the Dodd group is that the moment you get into a remote area, the quality of teachers drops right off. Quality educators have a tendency to want to be in the urban areas. Is that the secret of success? Could you give us in a nutshell what the difference is between the E-Learning system compared to the traditional system? You have got to be doing something that is unique.
Martin Sacher, CEO and Program Administrator, Sunchild E-Leaning Community: There are several unique factors. I spent 16 years as a principal at a large city high school, before I met Nelson on the golf course and came over to visit for a week. I have been there six years now. The issue that stood out sharply was the quality of teachers you could bring on to the reserves. Hence, we put together the program to address that issue first and foremost.
In a nutshell, what makes the program successful is the model, not the technology. The technology makes it happen, but the model and its application is what makes it successful. Part of that model is working with individual communities through the corporations to develop a positive attitude towards education and to establish an infrastructure, if you wish, within the community that says, "This is what good education looks like. Follow this model, not only in education, but also in your business ventures, and you will be successful." It works specifically with the communities and, in many ways, in the same sense, giving them the same skills and the same information that you would if they were within a large urban area.
The other area that makes the model very successful for the students is its flexibility. The model is designed around relationships and time. The model is built in such a way that relationships are built between the teachers, the community and the students, and that is a huge bridging gap to make success take place. As well, in terms of time, First Nations concept of time is not the same as it is in the colonial world. So the model is built around recognizing differences in time, the application of time.
Senator Campbell: Could we have your website?
Mr. Sacher: Our website address is www.sccyber.net.
Senator Campbell: Is this available to all First Nations, or is it exclusive to the First Nations in Alberta?
Mr. Daychief: Right now, it is exclusive to First Nations in Alberta.
Senator Campbell: Is it expandable?
Mr. Daychief: Yes, it is.
Senator Campbell: Whose responsibility is education?
Mr. Daychief: DIAND is responsible for those that are on the First Nation communities, and the provincial government is responsible for those that are living in urban areas.
Senator Campbell: How does DIAND fund that? Is it funded per capita?
Mr. Daychief: Yes.
Senator Campbell: I would suggest to you that, in fact, there are regulations that you could use as guidelines. I think of the open learning agency in British Columbia, for instance. The University of Athabasca, which is a degree-granting university, is completely over the Internet.
This is a gem. I think it is something that really can work, and I like it because it can apply not only to people who are on First Nations land but those that are living off-reserve. For instance, I forget the figures, but something like 30,000 First Nation people live in Vancouver. It would be great to be able to introduce this to them. You could use it in schools and at home. Anything we can do to help you on this, we will. I think you will find that there are regulations on it. Certainly you have done what many of them have not. You have measurability, and you have confirmation.
I will go to your website. I am really looking forward to taking a look at this.
Senator Christensen: You were saying it is Alberta only at the present time.
Mr. Daychief: Yes, at the present time, that is where we are.
Senator Christensen: Can it be taken down by bands or individuals? Would a band register to have it come in?
Mr. Daychief: Yes, they would register with us.
Senator Christensen: A band would.
Mr. Daychief: A band or First Nation school or any school.
Senator Christensen: However, an individual could not; correct?
Mr. Daychief: Not as it is now, but we are set up as an individual school as well.
Senator Christensen: However, the present time, a school or a band would register and have a group come in and use it.
Mr. Daychief: Yes. That is part of the problem — in terms of regulations — that is, we are recognized as an individual school through Alberta Learning, a registered school, but we cannot get funding. If an individual were living in Calgary, they could get on-line if something was set up already — and that is part of the problem.
Senator Christensen: How many bands are registered at the moment?
Mr. Daychief: As Harry mentioned, we have been in 12 communities this past year. Presently, we are in about 14 communities, and by January 2006 we will be in about 20 communities, including northeastern B.C., where the Alberta curriculum is recognized, and as well as in the Northwest Territories.
Senator Christensen: So by the beginning of next year, you will be delivering to 20 different schools or bands. Approximately how many students would that represent?
Mr. Daychief: Currently, 325 students.
Senator Christensen: In schools, I the grade group is 7 to 12. Are there adults involved?
Mr. Daychief: Yes, quite a few adults are involved.
Senator Christensen: What is the percentage breakdown of adults and youth?
Mr. Sacher: Probably 50 per cent to 60 per cent of our students are adults. The pattern traditionally is that students drop out at grade 9 and then make their way back to high school when they are 18, 19, 20. Unfortunately, the funding is not there once the student is older than the nominal roll. It is here that the corporations stepped in and helped to fund these students who did not fit anywhere else. The reality is that, on most reserves, probably close to 60 per cent of the students are traditionally what we would call an adult student in the public system.
Senator Christensen: Is this aimed more at adults who are going back for upgrading?
Mr. Sacher: No. It covers that component — but another key thing that makes us different from any other program out there is that we teach. Our technology allows us to teach the student in the same way as if this were a class here today. Students from 20 different reserves could be participating. It is not a distance education; a student does not take his material off line. The technology that is used is a Voice over Internet Protocol, VoIP — video conference, if you wish — connection, where a class is taking place, involving a multitude of students throughout the province at the same time. There are regular class times. "You are here today at 10:00 for math, be there." So it is a regular school with regular classes.
Senator Christensen: So it is aimed for the grades 7 to 12 age group, its curriculum reflects First Nations cultures, and its encourages those people to go through to 12.
Mr. Sacher: It certainly encourages the students to go through to Grade 12. It also provides quality educators. It is difficult to find teachers for the high-level math and sciences in remote areas. The teachers we use are extremely qualified teachers. They write much of the curriculum for Alberta Learning; they are writing the textbooks. It is these instructors who work with our students. It is for these reasons that our success rates are high. Our teachers are involved at the diploma levels, as to what the outcome should be for education at the other end.
Senator Christensen: The VoIP would come into a classroom. There would be a teacher present in the classroom; the classroom teacher would do the follow-up with the children, make sure they got their homework done and all the rest of it. Is that how it would work?
Mr. Sacher: Correct. We call them mentors, though, because in some communities they cannot attract any teachers. The person in the classroom would be a community person, and that individual would monitor what the students are doing. The individual from Sunchild E-Learning Community is the teacher. That individual is a qualified teacher, with credentials to instruct and provide the evaluation at the end.
The Chairman: If there are no further questions, thank you very much for your presentation.
Senators, our next presenters are from the First Nations Oil and Gas Project. I would ask Leonard Good Eagle to introduce his colleagues.
Leonard Good Eagle, President, First Nations Oil and Gas Pilot Project: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. To my left is Harley Frank, a tribal councillor for the Blood Tribe; to my right is Kirby Manyfingers, also a tribal councillor for the Blood Tribe.
Honourable senators are aware of the proposed First Nations Oil and Gas and Moneys Management Act, FNOGMMA — Bill C-54 — introduced in the House of Commons in June of this year. That proposed legislation is about giving our First Nations the skills and the tools needed to achieve greater economic self-reliance, a policy direction supported and promoted by the Government of Canada. Bill C-54 represents an important step in the governance continuum, which can be found in INAC's central program objective. This will achieve our self-government, economic, educational, cultural, social and community development needs.
The pilot initiative took over a decade to realize. This is a direct response to our request for the three First Nations, which was to create a process that would be able to take advantage of the value-added opportunities associated with oil and gas development. This was in 1994.
It is important for the members of this committee to understand that, under the current regime, First Nations are seriously limited in what they can do with oil and gas activities. Furthermore, the revenues that generate from our oil and gas prevent us from investing in developing our oil and gas sector in the future.
A First Nation will be able to deal with oil and gas from the discovery stage, through the production stage, and then all the way through to the processing stage. It will be able to maximize the economic rents from the resource through royalties, taxes, and equity and working interest participation in the actual commercial activities. In terms of oil and gas productions and the use of petroleum and natural gas products, it will be the maker of its own destiny.
Unlike under the present regime, First Nations will not be restricted to only enjoying those economic benefits accruing simply from the sale of the resource. First Nations will now be able to engage in value-added secondary and tertiary processing activities. Gas processing and hydrocarbon upgrading will be facilitated by the proposed FNOGMMA.
The First Nations Oil and Gas Pilot Project will have a positive impact on our communities specifically, as well as a positive impact on the rest of Canada. With the need for fossil fuels in Canada on the rise, First Nation communities may be able to assist in securing supplies of this critical resource in the future. Currently, there are a number of First Nations with oil and gas potential. As this industry grows, it will continue to be a powerful engine for generating other economic development opportunities on reserves, by providing a solid and sustainable foundation for other major industry or commercial enterprises.
It is imperative for the pilot First Nations communities to manage and control their own resources, an important step in the right direction for First Nations' self-reliance and economic independence.
Since the launch of the pilot project, there has been a substantial increase in the oil and gas activities on each of the pilot First Nations reserves. As a result of the increased economic activities and job creations in these communities, there is also an improved quality of life for their people.
In closing, I wish to say that the First Nations people will be able to achieve a greater economic self-reliance. It will support each of the First Nations as we design and implement ways to stimulate economic growth in their communities.
Thank you for allowing me to make this presentation.
The Chairman: I am aware of this bill. I have had some meetings with the department on Bill C-54. It is at the report stage in the House of Commons; no doubt the Senate will be dealing with Bill C-54 later this fall and winter. I am pleased that you are appearing before us to give us your views on it, and I take it generally that you are supportive of it. You have been involved in the development of the proposed legislation. Therefore, you are coming before us today basically supporting that initiative and that bill that we will be seeing; is that correct?
Mr. Good Eagle: Yes, Mr. Chairman. The initiative took place over a 10-year period, but within the past three years we have been involved in the development of the proposed legislation. I did not want to go into details about the bill her today, because I felt that this was not the place to do that. What I wanted to talk to the committee about was the economic side of the initiative.
Senator St. Germain: Thank you, gentlemen, for appearing before us here this morning. It is an honour to have you here, and it is an honour to be in Alberta Treaty 7.
I have two quick questions. Bill C-54 will be coming to the Senate. I understand the opposition is in favour of this bill as well. Is there anything in it that Aboriginal peoples are objecting to in any way, shape or form? Is there any resistance to it from the Aboriginal community? We are famous for expediting bills through the Senate; if there are any stumbling blocks, we would like to know now, if that is at all possible.
Mr. Good Eagle: To my knowledge, there has been no real opposition to the bill. In the near term, the bill will receive clause-by-clause consideration, and then be referred to the Senate.
In terms of support, we have done an outreach activity throughout Canada to ensure that First Nations members have been well informed as to the oil and gas initiative relating to Bill C-54.
Senator St. Germain: You have done your homework. It is your opinion that everything is done. I say that, because there have been occasions where bills that have come through, like the Land Management Act, have received opposition. There were those that wanted it, the more affluent, while others were concerned. Something was raised here this morning about a non-derogation clause in a piece of proposed legislation that is surfacing. That is why I ask the question. If there is no opposition, that is great; we look forward to passing it as quickly as possible after we study it in the Senate.
Mr. Good Eagle: Mr. Chairman, in terms of a non-derogation clause being recommended by another First Nation, we wanted to make sure that the treaties are protected in a similar manner, so we incorporated a non-derogation clause into the bill.
Senator Zimmer: Thank you for your presentation. Actually, I have a comment, not a question. It is very fortuitous that you presented this morning, because I was called very early this morning by Senator Jack Austin, who asked me to sponsor this bill. So I am very pleased that you presented today. I would like your coordinates so that I can discuss the bill further with you, so that I am fully prepared from your perspective to be able to sponsor this bill, and I am honoured to do so.
Senator St. Germain's question about whether you have any objections to any portions of the bill was timely. At the conclusion of this meeting, I would like your coordinates, so that I can do this bill properly, and I am honoured to do so.
Senator Peterson: Just so that we can get a better understanding of this and appreciation as we move forward, you say that you are seriously limited in what you can do now with oil and gas. Can you expand on that a bit and talk about what improvements you are looking for to make the proposed legislation work better for you?
Mr. Good Eagle: I will refer that question to my colleague Kirby Manyfingers.
Kirby Manyfingers, First Nations Oil and Gas Pilot Project: Good morning, senators. Under the current regime, Indian Oil and Gas Canada — IOGC — acts as the agents for First Nations, and as far as the regulatory regime, we have the Indian Oil and Gas regulations. Sometimes they do not always match up with what the industry is actually doing. So under the current arrangement, the current regime, we see all these gaps, and unfortunately there has not always been a level playing field.
What we have done through this process, as Mr. Good Eagle said, is that in 1995 we entered into an arrangement with the ultimate goal that we would replace the regulatory regime, where we would actually be in control of all of our oil and gas activity, and went through a three-phase process. We started with a co-management arrangement, which evolved into an enhanced co-management arrangement, the final step being this proposed legislation.
It is sectoral self-government legislation, specific to the three pilot First Nations, namely, the Blood Tribe, Siksika and White Bear out of Saskatchewan. Basically, it would put us in control of our own destiny. Under the current arrangement, IOGC just sort of signs off on the leases.
With this whole process, we have seen our oil and gas activity, and I can only speak on behalf of the Blood Tribe, increase by about 800 per cent. That is because we have been able to market our own lands, make our own deals, and with the arrangement that we have, IOGC basically signs off on the activities that we have done. In the old arrangement, you sat back and passively collected royalties. This would allow us to be real players in the industry as opposed to just royalty collectors.
We have entered into all sorts of partnerships with the industry where now we are investing in the actual drills, so that not only are we just passively collecting royalties, we also are now considered producers. It allows us to get into some of the value-added downstream activities with respect to oil and gas, things like processing. If there were ever a refinery put in place, we looked at that possibility.
It opens up endless possibilities for each of the respective three First Nations. We cannot purport to speak on anyone else's behalf. This bill certainly has the full support in its current form from the three pilots. Right now, there are jurisdictional gaps, and it creates a little bit of confusion over what industry can and cannot do on First Nation lands. By being able to take control, we eliminate a lot of these jurisdictional vacuums and deal first-hand with some of the grey areas that currently exist.
Senator Peterson: Is IOGC a department of DIAND?
Mr. Manyfingers: It is an extension of DIAND. As a matter of fact, their corporate offices are here in this building downstairs.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: Since it is already in the process of being passed, I imagine that an environmental impact study was done.
Mr. Good Eagle: This particular legislation will address the regulatory gaps that currently exist, as well as the regulations First Nations will have to comply to. The proposed legislation addresses all the major issues relating to environmental issues, relating to what the powers of the First Nations will be to establish the matters and control their own oil and gas resources. Right now, we are under the Environmental Assessment Act, because it is governed by the Indian Oil and Gas Act and regulations, which First Nation have to comply to, and also it is enforced by the Indian Oil and Gas sector within the department.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: Do individual people benefit from your royalties, people in the communities?
Mr. Good Eagle: Under the bill, each First Nations will have to develop a mechanism in terms of accountability, subject to approval by the membership, as they receive the revenues generated from oil and gas. As to how they will benefit from those revenues, the membership will determine what sort of major projects or programs they would like to use those revenues for.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: How many members are involved in this?
Mr. Good Eagle: The initiative took place in 1994-1995, and there were five First Nations involved. For political reasons, two dropped out of the process. The three that stayed in are the White Bear from Saskatchewan, and the Blood and Siksika from Alberta. When the First Nations first became involved, initial internal communication was conducted with members, vis-à-vis what this initiative is all about. Once the bill passes, a third consultation with members will take place, because under the bill a referendum must be held whereby members opt in to this legislation.
Mr. Manyfingers: If I understand your question correctly, you are asking how many people are affected, the size of the communities. The Blood Tribe has about 10,000 people. I think we have the second largest population in Canada, behind Siksika Nation, if I remember correctly. The Siksika is a fairly large reserve. The population there is in the neighbourhood of 6,500, I believe; White Bear has about 2,500 people. So, ballpark, close to 20,000 people between the three First Nations.
The Chairman: You are here before us in our study of the involvement of Aboriginal communities and businesses in economic development projects, and the oil and gas industry is a very big industry in Western Canada. Maybe not talking so much about the oil sands development, could you say something about the involvement of Aboriginal people in the oil and gas industry? Recognizing that the oil and gas industry is a complex, technology-based and very highly organized and expensive process, how are Native people faring? Are they getting involved in any way, other than jobs? It would be interesting to know that.
Mr. Good Eagle: In relation to how the membership will benefit from this particular process, from the beginning we did some capacity building, to ensure that each First Nation establish an administrative structure and establish a regulatory body. Within the particular structure, they have hired a number of First Nations members to work within that regulatory body. Within the economic side of it, membership will have the opportunity to work within the major oil and gas industries in major companies from drilling rigs to setting up pipelines. Those are being created today by each of the First Nations.
In terms of training and education, the goal of these First Nations is to train our members technically in the area of seismic and geological matters. That is one of the major goals that the First Nations are looking at. In order for them to achieve their goals, one of the major objectives is training, to ensure that members benefit from spinoffs in relation to oil and gas operation and commercial operations.
Mr. Manyfingers: From the pilot initiative, I think we have seen some benefits that have spilled out. When the initiative started 10 years ago, there was a partnership with SAIT that established a training program. It worked so well that the program has continued over the past decade. As a matter of fact, one of our colleges on the Blood reserve, Red Crow College, is now offering this course.
So right now, own members as well as other First Nations are now working for IOGC. As well, a number of our people are working in downtown Calgary with various oil companies. So that training program was a direct spinoff from this initiative.
As far as back home on reserve, I think each of the three First Nations has created their own regulatory oil and gas entity, which are fully employed by our people, and that is on the regulatory end. As far as some of the direct jobs, we have got people back home who are working directly in the oil and gas industry, where that did not exist before. We have members working on the O&M systems, as well as a number of entrepreneurs who have taken advantage of our increased activity and having more control. So in terms of spinoffs, both direct and indirect, we have seen a substantial number of jobs being created as a result of the whole pilot. It only gets better as time moves forward.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: Do you have your own membership code?
Mr. Good Eagle: Maybe I can talk from my reserve, which is Siksika. Yes, we do have our own membership code. Blood Tribe also has their own membership code, but I am not sure what kind of system White Bear has in place for their membership.
The Chairman: If are there no more questions, thank you, gentlemen, for your time here today. Obviously, we will see more of you in the future.
The committee adjourned.