Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Official Languages
Issue No. 9 - Evidence - Meeting of February 13, 2017
OTTAWA, Monday, February 13, 2017
The Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages met this day at 5:32 p.m. to continue its study on the application of the Official Languages Act and of the regulations and directives made under it, within those institutions subject to the Act, as well as its study on the challenges associated with access to French-language schools and French immersion programs in British Columbia.
Senator Claudette Tardif (Chair) in the Chair.
[Translation]
The Chair: I see a quorum, so I call the meeting to order. My name is Claudette Tardif, and I am a senator from Alberta. I am pleased to chair this evening's meeting. Before I turn the floor over to the witnesses, I invite the committee members to introduce themselves, starting on my right.
Senator McIntyre: Senator Paul McIntyre from New Brunswick.
Senator Gagné: Senator Raymonde Gagné from Manitoba.
Senator Seidman: Judith Seidman from Montreal, Quebec.
Senator Jaffer: Senator Mobina Jaffer from British Columbia.
[English]
Senator Fraser: I'm Senator Fraser from Montreal.
[Translation]
Senator Mégie: Senator Marie-Françoise Mégie from Quebec.
Senator Cormier: Senator René Cormier from New Brunswick.
Senator Mockler: Senator Percy Mockler from New Brunswick.
Senator Maltais: Senator Ghislain Maltais from Quebec.
The Chair: I would like to welcome the new senators who have joined the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages, senators appointed last fall and who are members of the committee: Senator René Cormier, Senator Marie-Françoise Mégie, Senator Lucie Moncion, who is not here this evening, Senator Bovey and, of course, Senator Gagné, who has been with us since last spring, almost a year ago. Welcome to the new members of the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages. To all the former members, thank you for being here. I would also like to welcome Senator Bovey from Manitoba, who has just come into the room.
This evening, the committee is continuing its special study on the application of the Official Languages Act and of the regulations and directives made under it, within those institutions subject to the Act. We are also pleased to welcome witnesses as part of our study on the challenges associated with access to French-language schools and French immersion programs in British Columbia.
Joining us this evening is the Honourable Judy Foote, MP, Minister of Public Services and Procurement. Welcome, minister. We also welcome Marie Lemay, Deputy Minister of Public Services and Procurement Canada, Adam Gibson, Acting Chief Executive Officer of the Translation Bureau, Public Services and Procurement Canada, and Manon Lapensée, Director of Corporate Communications, Canada Lands Company Limited. I would also like to welcome Steven MacKinnon, the new Parliamentary Secretary to the minister. Welcome, Mr. MacKinnon.
Madam Minister, before you begin your presentation, I want to thank you for your participation in the hearings, but most importantly, I would also like to thank you for your address to the House of Commons Standing Committee on Official Languages last week, where you stated that you would renew the Translation Bureau as a centre of excellence by withdrawing your intention to set up a new automated system for hiring freelancers that would award contracts to the lowest bidders. As you know, Madam Minister, our committee has always maintained that translation and interpretation services should not be provided based on the lowest rate. We alerted you to this issue, our committee sent you a letter in December, and we received members from the bureau's interpretation services. Thank you for your attention to this matter.
Without further ado, Madam Minister, I invite you to give your presentation.
[English]
Hon. Judy Foote, P.C., M.P., Minister of Public Services and Procurement: Good afternoon, Madam Chair and committee members. It's good to be here.
[Translation]
Thank you for the invitation. I am pleased to be here to discuss the government's response to the committee's report on the Translation Bureau. I am here with my deputy minister, Marie Lemay.
[English]
Honourable senators, I welcome this opportunity to discuss our government's commitment to official languages, the contributions of my department and the actions we are taking to strengthen the Translation Bureau as a centre of excellence with a capacity to support Canada's linguistic duality.
I assure this committee that I take the obligations of Public Services and Procurement Canada under the Official Languages Act seriously. The Official Languages Act is the cornerstone of federal language policy. It recognizes English and French as equal languages in all federal institutions and obliges them to do their part in promoting linguistic duality.
I work closely with both of my colleagues Minister Brison and Minister Joly, who are assigned specific responsibilities for official languages under the act to support their efforts and ensure my department's actions are complementary
Before I begin my remarks about the Translation Bureau, I will take a moment to discuss another issue that has been raised by the committee. Part of my portfolio includes a Crown corporation, Canada Lands Company Limited, which is responsible for reintegrating federal properties deemed surplus to government needs back into the local communities. The issue at hand concerns the Conseil scolaire francophone de la Colombie-Britannique in British Columbia and its interests in acquiring land for a new school specifically on property that is now owned by a joint venture involving Canada Lands Company and three First Nations, Musqueam Indian Band, Squamish Nation and Tsleil-Waututh Nation.
In 2014, to give you some history, 28 per cent of these properties were transferred to the First Nations as settlement of land claims. The remaining 72 per cent was sold to Canada Lands Company, who in turn sold a 22 per cent interest to the three First Nations to create a 50-50 joint venture between Canada Lands Company and the First Nations.
Within the 2014 agreements of sale for the Jericho Lands and Heather Street Lands, the British Columbia Ministry of Education is identified as a stakeholder. It expressed interest in acquiring a portion of the Heather Street Lands property for school sites to be used for francophone education.
Representatives of Canada Lands Company spoke about the nature of the partnership, the planning requirements for these properties and consultations regarding the school requirements during their appearance before this committee in early December.
Canada Lands Company has continued its consultation with the school board. I am told they had a positive meeting in late January, which has set the stage for more dialogue between all key stakeholders. Canada Lands is also facilitating a follow-up meeting this month with the school board, the City of Vancouver, the provincial Ministry of Education and the First Nations partners to continue to move this file forward. I have instructed my office to attend this meeting. I fully support the school board's wish to obtain a new school in the region.
This file is complex, and decisions regarding the planning, allocation and approval for land uses on these properties involve Canada Lands Company and their First Nations partners, the City of Vancouver, the Conseil scolaire francophone de la Colombie-Britannique as an interested party and the provincial Ministry of Education.
Madam Chair, I reiterate the support of both my department and Canada Lands Company for all aspects of the Official Languages Act, in particular, support for minority language communities. Canada Lands understands I want them to consider all options in assisting the Conseil scolaire francophone de la Colombie-Britannique to obtain a new site in this region while taking a leadership role in bringing all stakeholders to the table to meet this objective.
I now turn to the Translation Bureau. Since its founding in 1934, the Translation Bureau has been at the forefront of helping transform the capacity of the federal government to serve Canadians in the official language of their choice.
[Translation]
I am committed to giving the Translation Bureau its distinguished reputation back.
[English]
Last Thursday, as you have indicated, Madam Chair, I announced a series of measures to strengthen the capacity of the bureau to carry out its important mandate in support of Canada's linguistic duality. As a champion of official languages, I am determined to lead by example by reinforcing the value of bilingualism to Canadians. We are renewing the Translation Bureau as a centre of excellence, ready to embrace innovation, adopt leading-edge practices and recruit the best in class.
The Translation Bureau gives meaning to the Official Languages Act by providing world-class, high-quality translation, closed captioning and interpretation services for Parliament, the judiciary, and federal departments and agencies. It is also the terminology authority within the federal government.
Madam Chair, our interpretation services have also drawn the attention of your committee. The bureau provides interpretation services for over 15,300 hours of parliamentary meetings, 4,000 conferences held in both official languages, and 500 foreign-language conferences. Sign-language interpretation is provided for more than 2,500 meetings, as well as closed-captioning service for over 1,100 hours of parliamentary proceedings.
I am grateful to our talented interpreters who play a vital role in supporting all the work we do as parliamentarians.
Since 1995, the services of the bureau have been optional for departments and agencies, allowing them to contract interpretation and translation services directly from the private sector. The bureau employs approximately 68 accredited official languages staff interpreters. This is supplemented by about 150 Translation Bureau accredited official languages freelance interpreters across Canada and approximately 500 accredited foreign language interpreters worldwide. While most of our parliamentary interpretation is done in house, the bureau relies on freelance interpreters for nearly 70 per cent of conference interpretation and all of the sign language or visual interpretation.
In 2016, the bureau consulted with industry and developed a request for standing offer for conference interpretation services.
Madam Chair, you and members of this committee were among those who expressed concern that the proposed approach did not fully respect our commitment to official languages, in particular the quality of our services. Following careful consideration, I cancelled the request for standing offer. I have asked officials to reset and develop a new approach based on further consultations with representatives from across the interpretation industry.
Any new endeavour in this area must reflect our commitment to official languages and the quality of our services. In the meantime, I assure you and committee members that all interpreters hired by the bureau are fully accredited based on a world-renowned proven accreditation process.
In addition, Madam Chair, is the matter of optionality. The Common Services Policy set by Treasury Board specifies that organizations, such as the Translation Bureau, must conduct periodic reviews to assess whether their services should be optional or mandatory. These reviews are done in collaboration with the Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat.
I have written to Minister Brison requesting his support in considering reverting to a mandatory service delivery model for the Translation Bureau as a complement to other initiatives in support of official languages. As well, because organizations may have different standards for the interpreters they contract directly, I have asked Minister Brison to explore a requirement for federal departments and agencies to exclusively retain the services of professional interpreters who have successfully passed the Translation Bureau's accreditation process. This should ensure all interpretation services contracted anywhere in the government are of the highest quality.
I now turn to other measures that I have instructed my department to take.
In recent years, the loss of staff through attrition has created the need to manage lost corporate knowledge and expertise. Our mandate is to provide federal departments with access to high-quality linguistic services. Gaps in capacity put this mandate at risk, and we are taking action.
Renewal is happening across the bureau. A hiring process is under way for a new chief executive officer who should be in place by the end of the fiscal year.
To further guarantee the quality of its linguistic services, the bureau is creating a new position, that of chief quality officer. This position will be held by a language professional who will report directly to the CEO. The chief quality officer will oversee all Translation Bureau activities affecting quality and take part in decision making on training, outsourcing, technology, staffing and other issues.
The bureau's workforce is also being renewed. This past year, the bureau hired 12 new translators to provide linguistic services in each domain, such as parliamentary proceedings, national protection and meteorology. Three interpreter interns were hired in the fall and four more will be hired before the end of this fiscal year, for a total of seven new interpreters added to bureau staff.
Aligned with the Prime Minister's youth strategy and as part of our government's ongoing engagement with students and universities, we commit to building the next generation of talent by hiring a minimum of 50 students per year in each of the next five years across Canada.
Initiatives are under way to increase the number of interpreter graduates from recognized universities to support additional hiring by both the bureau and industry.
We are also restoring a co-op program within the Translation Bureau. Many Canadian universities, including the University of Moncton, the University of Montreal and the University of Ottawa, have already indicated their interest in participating.
The bureau maintains presence across the country, not only providing vital links to local universities but also enabling the bureau to respond to the specialized needs of our diverse regions. It will continue to operate its network of regional offices, which employ about one quarter of the bureau's 1,300 employees. As well, there are staff on site at certain military bases such as CFB Gagetown and CFB Borden.
Madam Chair, as we mark Canada's one hundred and fiftieth anniversary and the things that make our country great, we are reminded of the Translation Bureau's outstanding contribution to linguistic duality in the public service, Parliament and ultimately for all of Canadians. The measures we are taking will reinforce the Translation Bureau as a centre of excellence and enhance its capacity to provide high-quality linguistic services, as it has done for over 80 years.
[Translation]
We are proud to play our part in continuing to promote and defend bilingualism in Canada.
[English]
And I am fully committed to working with this committee, my cabinet colleagues and everyone who is interested to ensure the Translation Bureau continues to deliver on its mandate effectively.
Thank you. I am happy to take your questions.
The Chair: Thank you. We will begin with the questions. There is a list.
[Translation]
Senator Gagné: Madam Chair, are we addressing both issues at the same time?
The Chair: Yes, I feel senators are always free to ask questions about the issues they are interested in, given that changes have already been made to the Translation Bureau, and that our study on the challenges associated with access to French-language schools and French immersion programs is nearing completion. So this is an opportunity to receive answers on the issue.
Senator Gagné: I would like to take this opportunity to thank you. I think you made many people happy last Thursday when you announced that you were cancelling your decision to set up a new automated system for the assignment of one-time interpretation contracts.
I am also pleased to see that quality is at the top of your list of priorities. I think your commitment to establishing a centre of excellence is good news for everyone. Thank you very much.
I have a question about the services. You said the following in your speech last Thursday:
[English]
"One of those actions concerns the issue of optionality. In terms of volume, the Translation Bureau manages 80 per cent of the federal government's translation needs.'' What would be the 80 per cent? With those that are optional, the 20 per cent would be for which services?
[Translation]
Marie Lemay, Deputy Minister, Public Services and Procurement Canada: Actually, it is not divided by services. These are clients. It is therefore proportional.
[English]
Senator Gagné: What would be the 20 per cent of the clients?
Ms. Lemay: We could you the list of departments. I don't have it right now. Some have service from us; others don't.
[Translation]
Senator Gagné: In the letter you sent to Minister Brison asking that federal ministers be required to use the Translation Bureau's services, did you suggest a timeline? Would it be possible for us to have a copy of Minister Brison's letter when he responds to your request?
[English]
Ms. Foote: We wrote to Minister Brison, President of Treasury Board. It will have to be considered by Treasury Board.
Minister Brison and Minister Joly are working together looking at official languages and how to move forward. We want to ensure that whatever we do, quality is first and foremost in terms of what we deliver.
Out of respect to Minister Brison, I did not give him a time frame. It's something I'd ask him to consider, because I sincerely believe we need to do that and make it mandatory. That will obviously increase the amount of work that will be done in house, but it will also make sure that government departments are ensuring that what they produce is quality. That's always been a concern.
I'm happy to report that since we've done this, one of the departments that tended not to use the Translation Bureau will now be using the Translation Bureau. Just sending the letter itself has had the effect that we wanted it to have.
We're looking at having more departments who are not using the Translation Bureau do so of their own volition.
Senator Gagné: We would certainly like to have a copy of Minister Brison's response, if that is possible.
Ms. Foote: We just sent the letter to him last week, so we have not received a response from him yet.
[Translation]
Senator Gagné: My second question is about the lands requested by the Conseil scolaire francophone de la Colombie-Britannique.
In your presentation, you indicated that lands owned by the federal government were transferred to the Canada Lands Company. When the transfer was made, the government did not follow the directive on the sale or transfer of surplus real property. As a result, the sale or transfer did not take into account the interests of communities, including official language minority communities and the different levels of government. The transfer was made without consultation.
The Canada Lands Company is not now subject to that directive. As minister, what is your power to intervene in this matter?
[English]
Ms. Foote: It's my understanding that in 2015, the Commissioner of Official Languages determined that CLC had not contravened section 7 of the Official Languages Act. Having said that, I am committed to doing everything I can as minister. That means that while CLC is a Crown corporation, I have indicated to CLC that I am interested in ensuring that they take a leadership role and work with all the stakeholders — and there are numerous stakeholders here, including the City of Vancouver, the provincial department of education and the First Nations partnerships that CLC has entered into agreement with.
It's not as if I could turn to a Crown corporation and say, "You must do this.'' They have entered into this legally binding agreement. They have all of these other stakeholders. In looking at the land and whether the land that the school board would like to have can be made available, I understand that city planning has to go into that as well in terms of looking at the land.
But while I'm told there has been no contravention of section 7, I have indicated that we need to do everything we can to respond positively to the request. If it were just me — but it isn't. There are so many other stakeholders that have to be considered here.
[Translation]
Senator Gagné: What you are saying is that the only power of intervention is moral persuasion.
[English]
Ms. Foote: I think the actions that CLC has taken at this point in terms of spearheading a meeting of all the stakeholders is a good first step. I'm told that that meeting went very well. A second meeting is scheduled for this month.
Again, what we have to do is recognize where we are in terms of the number of stakeholders. We really need to look at bringing them all together and finding a compromise. What that compromise will be, I don't know, but I do know that inasmuch as I can, I have said to CLC that it's really important to work with the community and the school board, bearing in mind as well that education is the responsibility of the province, not the federal government. So we have all the partners at the table, but I've also told my department that I want to make sure there is someone from my department at the meeting so that I will know how things play out at that meeting.
I'm encouraged by what I've heard. My department has reached out to the school board to get their take on how the meeting went. I am encouraged in talking to CLC that their interest in finding a resolution to this is paramount for them as well.
Senator McIntyre: Minister, thank you for being here today and for answering our questions.
I am pleased to learn that your government is committed to renewing the Translation Bureau as a centre of excellence. As you have indicated, you will be developing a new procurement system and will be adding quality to that new system.
Minister, I'm also pleased to learn that you will be respecting the obligations of the Official Languages Act and will not introduce Portage, a machine translation software system, into the federal public service. Further to the recommendation from the parliamentary committee, my understanding is that the Portage tool is only to be used by public servants to understand text and not to decimate information.
Congratulations on the appointment of a new chief executive officer and creating this new position of a chief quality officer.
I'm also pleased to see that you will be restoring the co-op program. As you have indicated, several Canadian universities have already expressed interest in participating in this program.
There is no question that it is important to achieve the best possible balance between the use of public and private sector translation experts, and the Translation Bureau recognizes this importance. That said, my understanding is that the parliamentary committee made a recommendation on hiring private sector translation experts. As minister, have you given any thought or consideration to this recommendation on the part of the parliamentary committee?
Ms. Lemay: With your permission, the first question on the Portage tool, just a little precision. We did introduce Portage but as a comprehension tool, as you said.
Senator McIntyre: Yes, of course.
Ms. Lemay: Which is what it was meant to be, but thanks to the input from committees and this committee, we were able to adjust to make it a comprehensive tool and very clear to all employees using it. It allows employees to use their first language. It's promotion of using your first language and being understood by your colleagues.
In terms of private sector/internal, it's always a fine balance, because the volume of work at the Translation Bureau, as you can well imagine, has peaks and valleys. We need to find that fine balance between the private sector and the Translation Bureau. It is very important also to support the industry outside, because we consider that the bureau has a role in making sure the industry is solid and vibrant.
So as much as we need to make sure of the quality internally for the government, we also have this dual objective to support the industry outside of the Translation Bureau. So we always hire from the private sector at the same time as internal.
Senator McIntyre: I have quick question on the Rose-des-vents school. As you have indicated, Canada Lands Company is one of the federal institutions subject to the Official Languages Act. It reports to you as Minister of Public Services and Procurement.
That being said, I note that the discussions were held between the Conseil scolaire francophone and Canada Lands Company in late January to move things forward, and that's music to our ears as a committee, because we heard from Canada Lands Company in December of last year
I understand that you intend to take steps to move this issue forward. In taking steps, do you think that a regulatory framework would be an appropriate way to deal with this matter; in other words, to ensure that the needs of minority language schools are taken into account in the sale or transfer of real property?
Ms. Foote: The issue we're dealing with now is a separate one in terms of what has already transpired, what happened in 2014 with the land that's under discussion. Clearly there is a binding agreement that exists right now with respect to the land that we're talking about here because of the agreement they entered into with First Nations and because of all of the other stakeholders engaged here.
We are where we are with this one, and what we have to do, in terms of bringing all of the stakeholders to the table, is to try and work together to find a compromise. Yes, I'm told the meeting went well in January and the other one that's coming up now in February, I'm hoping the same thing will happen.
In terms of where we are with this particular situation, we have to try and find a way, working together, to find a resolution . I am hoping that will happen. It's where my priority is in terms of finding a resolution, but again, I'm constrained in what I can do as minister, given that this is a Crown corporation and because of the agreement entered into in 2014 before my time and before whatever was in play then. It's a 50-50 venture they have. Whatever Canada Lands would like to do they can't do of their own accord; they have to get the agreement of the other partner. So it's difficult to do anything with that particular one.
But I can tell you that in the self-assessment that was done by Canada Lands, they have acknowledged that they probably have not been as cognizant as they should be in terms of their obligations under the Official Languages Act. We've made it quite clear that they need to be, and they understand that.
Senator McIntyre: Thank you, minister.
Senator Jaffer: Minister, thank you very much for being here today. It's a real pleasure to welcome you to the Senate.
As you know, I am from British Columbia, so this issue is very close to my heart. But before I speak about it, I want to go to another issue for one second. In the last two months I've had so many people in my province speak to me about calling French a minority language community. As you are also in cabinet, I ask that you take this to Minister Joly and to the Prime Minister, that what francophone people from other countries have asked me is, "How can you say we are equal languages and yet you call us minority communities?'' Wording is everything, so I maybe now the time has come to look at something different.
Minister, I want to share something with you. I hear you. I have known you for many years, so everything you say I absolutely believe, but I want you to take a walk with me.
My colleagues and I went to see the French schools. I have to tell you, I had tears in my eyes when I went home. I was embarrassed that I was taking my colleagues to not the same standard of schools that other children in B.C. experience. If we are equal, how can we treat the French-speaking community unequally?
Minister, I know you will intervene on our behalf — I have no doubt about that — but I want this impression to be left that we can no longer say that we treat languages equally and yet treat the communities unequally. We have to find a way. I'm very emotional about this issue.
I am very emotional about this issue. Because I'm from B.C., I will tell you that my leaders in B.C. have not taken leadership on this. So when you say that the Province of B.C. is there, they are not. They are not speaking for us, so the only person we can look to is you, minister.
I know you have assured everybody here who has spoken, but I want your personal assurance that you will not rely on the Province of B.C. to do the job of treating people equally. They have not even seen fit to meet with a Senate committee of Canada.
We went to Victoria, and I let them know that I personally, as a British Columbian, am not impressed by that behaviour. If they will not meet with a Senate committee, how much interest will they have in this?
Minister, I ask that you not rely on B.C. or on the mayor but rely on your officials to ensure that French-speaking children are treated as equally as English-speaking children.
Ms. Foote: I hear you. You have known me a long time, and you know that if I could wave a magic wand, it would be done.
Senator Jaffer: I know.
Ms. Foote: I can't. Canada Lands is a Crown corporation, so even the measures I am taking, because I believe in this, are outside of what a minister would normally do with a Crown corporation.
I am trying to bring all of the partners together, all of the stakeholders, and Canada Lands is at the table. They know how important this is, and they know how important it is to me. But, at the same time, they have a 50-50 partnership with the First Nations. They have a binding agreement, so they cannot just say to the First Nations, "We want you to turn this over; we need to turn over this piece of land,'' or even the school, the heritage building, if that's what the school board would like.
We have to find a way as adults to come together, and I hear you when it comes to the province. You know, as I know, that education is a provincial responsibility. The Province of British Columbia will have to make a purchase, as you know. The province will have to be the one to purchase the building or the land. How much are they willing to pay for it? Are they willing to pay market price? Who am I to tell the province what they should or should not do? There are city zoning requirements that come into play. There are so many stakeholders that have to be engaged in this.
I am hoping with you and with all of the committee that we can get a resolution to this. I believe we can, but it will take us a bit of time. I hear you and I've heard the stories about the school and the children. You are absolutely right: Children need to be in the proper environment to learn. If they are in close quarters and not getting the support they need, that makes it more difficult.
Senator Jaffer: Minister, I want to leave one impression with you. When you have two children in a neighbourhood and one goes to a school with the best facilities and another does not, what does that child think about their community? That's what we are doing, and that's wrong.
Minister, I know you and I know you think out of the box, so please think out of the box and solve this problem. Thank you.
The Chair: Before going on to our next speaker, minister, we did receive a letter from Canada Lands Company to our clerk, Mr. Pittman, just this week giving an update. Unfortunately the letter was sent to the Official Languages Committee only in English.
Ms. Foote: Seriously?
The Chair: We had to have it translated.
Ms. Foote: My apologies.
The Chair: Thank you, minister.
Manon Lapensée, Director, Corporate Communications, Canada Lands Company Limited: Mine as well.
The Chair: From correspondence that we received from the Conseil scolaire francophone, they have indicated that from 2011 the province indicated that monies were available to purchase the land but that the federal government at that time paid no attention to the fact that there was money available from the province in order to purchase that land. So the province is ready to put in the money
Senator Fraser: Minister, thank you. It is extremely agreeable to hear good news and about your personal commitment.
I understand that Canada Lands is a Crown corporation and all that, but a sensible manager, being made aware that the minister has a strong personal interest in and commitment to an issue, presumably will have their consciousness raised. From what you say it sounds to me as if there has been some raising from what I believed to be the consciousness of Canada Lands when they appeared before this committee, so good on you.
If I may preach from my parish, I'm an English Quebecer. We are also an official language community and just don't forget about us.
This business about mandatory versus optional services, could you explain that to me? If the service is optional, does that mean that the agency or department in question is not obliged to translate material or is not obliged to use the Translation Bureau?
Ms. Foote: Not obliged to use the Translation Bureau.
Senator Fraser: But they do have to translate.
Ms. Foote: Yes.
Senator Fraser: Except for when they are writing to the Official Languages Committee.
Ms. Foote: Yes.
Senator Fraser: My second question, which I think is probably equally simple to respond to, has to do with your reference to the loss of staff through attrition in recent years. Is that because they reached retirement age or because they were going off for greener, better-paid fields elsewhere?
Ms. Foote: They had reached retirement age. Unfortunately they weren't replaced, so that resulted in not having the staff that we would normally have to do the work that would need to be done.
This would have happened prior to this government, so what I have said is that we need to hire. I'm suggesting that the services be made mandatory; we need to hire more individuals. That's my thinking on this.
That's not to say that we won't end up using, as the deputy has said, private services from time to time; but we will always ensure quality, always, and our focus will always be on doing as much as we can possibly do in-house through the Translation Bureau.
Senator Fraser: My final comment is that it's really good that you are working with the universities and the young folks, because without that there will be a desert, so thank you.
Ms. Foote: That's what really good about the co-op program. You have now a cadre of students who are being trained to be translators, and they will be coming into the system. While we say 50 a year for the next 5 years, I see this going on longer than the next 5 years.
[Translation]
Senator Maltais: Welcome, Madam Minister. In terms of policy, there are some settled cases, such as the Translation Bureau, that we're happy with, and then we move on to other issues. I'm interested in the Rose-des-vents school. At that time, you were not the minister responsible for this file. The then minister in office had the wool pulled over her eyes by her senior officials. It's clear. They got rid of the hot potato. They did not have the courage to deal with the reality of the school boards and the Government of British Columbia. They went into hiding by saying that they would get rid of the file when the minister left and would pass it on to the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, knowing full well that it was a Tower of Babel. Not a single one of those officials had the courage to send their children, even for one day, to those schools. They did it deliberately. They got rid of the lands by transferring them to the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation. You pointed that out in your presentation.
You have the City of Vancouver, you have the Department of Indigenous and Northern Affairs. We have the recipe, but we cannot make anything worthwhile from it. These Canadians have the same rights as you and me. The officials were heartless. I say that because I visited those places. They would not send their children to spend half a day at that school.
We are francophones. There is no second language in Canada, there are two official languages. Believe it and tell it to your senior managers. As Ms. Lemay said, the best example is that the Translation Bureau staff can speak in their mother tongue. Yet that is not what she did just now. She answered a question in English instead of French. You see what happens when that respect is missing.
I told that to the presidents of the University of British Columbia and Simon Fraser University. There is no second language in Canada; there are two official languages. Everyone has the same rights under the Constitution and the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. However, Vancouver residents and the Rose-des-vents school children do not have the same rights as other Canadians. I have visited many school settings, and the situation is dire. It is not your fault, Madam, you have nothing to do with it. However, you are the minister today. There is likely enough there to report to the UN. Instead of discrediting what the Government of Canada is doing with indigenous people, we should look at what is happening at the Rose-des-vents school.
I am confident that you will grab the bull by the horns and do what is necessary. However, I am also aware that you do not have full authority over the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation. You can lay your hand on the table, but you may not have all four aces. It will not be easy for you. However, someone in the Government of Canada must be able to make a decision that will ensure compliance with the Charter.
I wish you all the best, and I thank you for your honesty. Not everyone would have acted as you did in the beginning. I wish you the best of luck, because what you are going to do will have an impact on children from three years old up to Grade 12. They are full-fledged Canadian citizens like you and me.
[English]
Ms. Foote: Thank you for your comments. Allow me to apologize to you for not being able to respond to you in French. I am working at it. It's taking a while, but I do a apologize for that. English is my first language, and it doesn't come as easily as I'd like it to. I will get there.
[Translation]
Senator Mockler: With your indulgence, I would like to make a few comments before I ask my question.
[English]
Minister, I think what you have presented to us, those initiatives, are welcome steps.
[Translation]
I would be remiss if I did not take this opportunity to congratulate Mr. MacKinnon, who is your parliamentary secretary. He is a valuable addition to your team. We were able to see Mr. MacKinnon in action in New Brunswick when he did a great job of serving Acadians, the anglophones of New Brunswick and the First Nations. He will certainly be an asset to your team, in my view.
I would like to draw your attention to another point.
[English]
I would like to advise you to revisit Canada Lands Company Limited's performance in Moncton, New Brunswick, where years ago they had similar demands on parcels of land and everybody at the table found a solution to help our people.
My question to you is the following.
[Translation]
Why is it not possible to lease one of the buildings located on the Heather Street lands near the Rose-des-Vents school right now? I was not available when the committee visited the area. However, I had the opportunity to visit it with the Conseil francophone de la Colombie-Britannique. Senator Fraser and Senator Jaffer spoke briefly about that. Madam Minister, would you be prepared to take action with the Canada Lands Company, the province and the City of Vancouver to transfer part of the Heather Street lands to the board so that they can build a school there as soon as possible? Are you ready to look at the issue of land acquisition for the francophone community of Vancouver? That is a priority, and we must send a message to the francophone community in Vancouver that will have an impact on all communities across Canada.
[English]
Ms. Foote: Let me start by agreeing with you about my parliamentary secretary. I'm very fortunate to have Steve on board with me. We go back a long way to when he worked for Premier McKenna. I'm blessed. I am glad you pointed that out.
With respect to intervening with Canada Lands, that's exactly what we're doing. I have, as I said earlier, asked them to come together with all of the stakeholders, and Canada Lands have done that, but I've told them that my office will be sitting in on the meetings. That's the first step. I'd like to see a resolution here. With all the stakeholders coming to the table, we will find a resolution.
We'll see where it goes. The next meeting is this month. I'm really optimistic, given what I've heard so far. I can be overly optimistic sometimes. Because the first meeting went well doesn't necessarily mean the meeting this month will go well. We will see how it plays out, but I will have someone there from my department.
At this stage, that is intervening more than a department normally would in a Crown corporation, but again, because I think this issue is so important, one that I want to stay on top of, we're going to be encouraging and asking and insisting that people stay at the table and find a resolution.
Again, bear in mind that it isn't only Canada Lands but it's First Nations. It's a joint venture between First Nations and Canada Lands. And then there is a part from the province and a part from the city. So we have to be very careful and work this in a way that recognizes and respects everyone at the table.
[Translation]
Senator Cormier: As a new member of this committee, I am very pleased to have the opportunity to hear you speak, Madam Minister. Like any good student starting his work, I have very carefully read all the documentation produced by my colleagues on the committee. I particularly appreciated the content of the report that is being finalized. I have read the many concerns that have long been raised in the official language communities, such as the place of official languages in our country, leadership or lack of leadership in some provinces, and the leadership role that the federal government must play in that respect.
If I may comment on that, I think the issue of official languages does not just pertain to the minorities, but to our country as a whole, because it is the foundation of our country. You said earlier, and rightly so, that education falls under provincial jurisdiction. However, I believe that, in the federal government's relationship with the provinces, particularly through federal-provincial agreements, there are creative ways that the federal government can certainly use to raise awareness in the provinces.
You also said in your presentation that you were speaking with the Minister of Canadian Heritage. I would like to know what ongoing mechanism your department is using to dialogue with the Department of Canadian Heritage which, for many Canadians at least, is recognized as the department responsible for official languages and raising awareness of the other departments, as well. In what way are you in continuous contact with the Department of Canadian Heritage, Madam Minister?
[English]
Ms. Foote: You're absolutely right. Of course, Canadian Heritage is responsible for official languages. The aspect of it that we have in PSPC is the Translation Bureau, and we provide a public service. At the same time, we have the President of Treasury Board, so Treasury Board has a responsibility as well. We all work together, but we have different responsibilities when it comes to official languages.
We work closely together. Right now, the measures that we've taken in PSPC, it's because it was the right thing to do. Everything that we're doing in terms of hiring a new CEO and a chief quality officer, in terms of the co-op program, in terms of writing to Minister Brison to have departments make the use of the Translation Bureau mandatory, those were all measures taken by PSPC because we have a responsibility for the Translation Bureau. Minister Joly has a different responsibility, and Mr. Brison has yet another responsibility.
Ultimately, the final decision in terms of official languages and the responsibilities under the Official Languages Act, the review that's being done now through Minister Joly and Minister Brison, will be there for discussion and to see how we go forward. But from my perspective and in terms of my responsibility, it's the Translation Bureau.
Last week, we responded to this committee and to the committee in the other place in terms of the concerns that were raised. It was a golden opportunity for me as minister. While there were issues raised, it also gave me an opportunity to be creative and to identify other opportunities, and that's what we did. Not only did we respond to issues that had been raised by this committee and the other committee, but we were able to say we can take this a step further, and we did that.
[Translation]
Senator Cormier: Perhaps my question was not adequate, but as I understand it, there is no interdepartmental mechanism whereby you meet with Minister Joly to discuss overall issues. The Department of Canadian Heritage has its responsibilities, but on the issue of schools in British Columbia, for instance, it affects much more than access to land; it affects the entire school ecosystem. My question was more along those lines.
Ms. Lemay: Certainly, there are all kinds of interdepartmental committees and structures when it comes to officials. At the departmental level, that is a good question. I am trying to think, but I really believe that it is at the level of officials that this happens, unless I am mistaken.
[English]
Ms. Foote: Marie is right. As ministers, for all of our mandate letters, we were mandated to work together, so there isn't an issue that impacts only one department. It could be any issue, but we have been told, and rightly so, that we work together as a team. That means our officials, our deputies in particular, have a committee structure such that if issues emanate out of two or three departments and need to be looked at, then they will do that and, of course, report back to us.
[Translation]
The Chair: The minister has generously agreed to spend a few more minutes with us. For the second round of questions, we will start with Senator Gagné, followed by Senator McIntyre.
Senator Gagné: I would like to thank you for your commitment to continuing discussions with the various parties concerning the lands that can accommodate the Commission scolaire francophone de la Colombie-Britannique. What I have heard is that you want to find a solution to the problem. Thank you for that commitment.
I would like to go back a little. We know that the Canada Lands Company is not subject to the directive on the sale or transfer of surplus real property. This problem may be repeated in New Brunswick, Manitoba or elsewhere, and francophone communities may lose out. It does not solve the problem we are facing, which is that the Canada Lands Company does not need to consult with communities when it wants to sell land.
Is there any way to right this wrong? How do we ensure that, from now on, we will be able to carry out the consultations necessary to take positive action that will support the development and enhance the vitality of official language communities?
[English]
Ms. Foote: Before I ask my deputy to respond, you're absolutely right in terms of the mandate of Canada Lands. The federal government gives it to Canada Lands, and then it is their responsibility, when selling, where they can, to sell for market value. That's what they were mandated to do. That was long before my time, and probably your time.
I don't know if you want to add something, but that's where we are in terms of Canada Lands and its mandate.
[Translation]
Ms. Lapensée: Since the Canada Lands Company began operating in 1995, it has been subject to the regulations of the municipality and province in which it operates. To say that we do not hold consultations is not true. Our platform is the public consultation of the communities where we work.
The gap we have identified is the need to be more proactive with minority communities. That's what we are doing right now, going to meet those communities to ensure they are aware of what we are doing, our operations. In terms of public consultations, CLC is very proud of its track record, and we have won awards for it across the country. Again, from our point of view, the gaps we are seeing relate to the need to be more proactive in this area.
[English]
Senator McIntyre: Minister, I don't have a question, but I simply wish to make an observation further to Senator Gagné's question involving the Canada Lands Company.
The company reports to you as minister, and I think it would be wise on your part — and you have probably already done it — to remind them they are subject to Part VII of the Official Languages Act. As I recall, the act stipulates that it must take positive measures to enhance the vitality of francophone minority communities and support their development.
When they appeared before this committee on December 5, I reminded them that their 2014-15 annual review showed that they had a poor understanding of the Official Languages Act, and they had a poor understanding of Part VII of that act. This view was confirmed, of course, at the Senate committee's public hearings, and then the company made it clear that they would refocus and that they were open to the idea of improving their performance. Following this, of course, they met with the conseil scolaire of Vancouver, and that's good to hear.
But I think it's good to remind them of their responsibility and obligations under Part VII of the act. This is where we really have to start.
Ms. Foote: I hear you, and I do know that, in my discussions with them, in their own self-assessment, they recognized that. They have undertaken to be more open and to consult more with those with whom they do business. In my discussions with Canada Lands, it has been to say, "Well, you have a mandate to recognize the maximum you can for a piece of property. This is a different government, and we have a social conscience.'' We have to bear that in mind when we have government property that's turned over to Canada Lands that they then sell and the money goes back into the treasury.
What I've said is don't forget that there's a social aspect here. I think that's what we are discussing here today as well.
Again, while I have to be careful as the minister in terms of what I can and can't tell a Crown corporation to do, I do want to give them a shout-out and say that they have been very understanding. The meetings are taking place, but they've come to the table, I think, with a different outlook. I hate to say that we're dealing with what was an oversight, but I think they would be the first ones to say that, in their own self-assessment, they probably had not been as cognizant of the need to recognize that element.
[Translation]
Senator Maltais: Ms. Lapensée, you said that the CLC was a model when it comes to consultations and that you had won awards. What awards have you won?
Ms. Lapensée: The awards we have won are related to the awards for redevelopment plans that include a community consultation component. When we win an award, it is for the entire plan and vision for the property, which includes consultations with the municipality and the community.
Senator Maltais: Who are the jury members?
Ms. Lapensée: It depends. Sometimes it is the real estate industry, other times it is the municipality itself. It depends on the award. I can give you a list of the awards we have won, if you like.
Senator Maltais: Yes, I would like that, as well as the list of jury members who awarded you all the awards.
Ms. Lapensée: If that is possible, I will send them to you.
Senator Maltais: Thank you.
Madam Minister, we are currently studying Bill S-209. I know that you have a very busy schedule, but when you have the chance to study the bill, we would like your opinion on it. Once again, it is a linguistic issue for francophones in minority communities, and this will certainly involve your department.
The Chair: Madam Minister, we will let you think about it. We do not expect you to respond to this request tonight.
Senator Moncion: Thank you, Madam Minister, for taking the time to meet with us. I do not have a question, but I have two comments.
First of all, I would like to congratulate you on the Translation Bureau initiative, for re-establishing what has been changed in the last few years. I think it is very important for people with respect to official languages.
I would also like to thank you for taking the time to talk to us about the situation in British Columbia. Your position as minister in a matter under provincial jurisdiction, and the fact that you agreed to get involved to move things forward demonstrates your involvement and commitment to making progress.
Often, in Senate committees, we have to deal with or study issues in which the federal and provincial governments share responsibilities, and often they intertwine, criss-cross and collide. I would like to thank you for taking the time to explain your position and intervene to move forward matters that are under provincial jurisdiction and that include all sorts of things that play against or in favour of official languages.
The Chair: Madam Minister, on behalf of the members of the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages, I want to thank you most sincerely for your commitment and your leadership in revitalizing the Translation Bureau. As you have noted, your efforts are very much appreciated by the members of the Senate committee who, I must say, were very concerned about the actions that the government was going to undertake. Now, we are glad to see that you have taken a new path. It is one that, I think, is the right way to recognize the excellence in interpretation and translation, an excellence that we have maintained for 80 years now, Madam Minister.
[English]
Madam Minister, I also want to thank you for listening to the preoccupation that we have in regard to the Canada Lands Company. We are encouraged to see you are taking a personal leadership role in the matter in bringing the stakeholders around the table.
I would say, Madam Minister, that there is some urgency. I understand that the final plans of phase 2 in the consultations are due by the end of April. If there is no plan that includes a school, those plans will not go forward in phase 3 when architects are hired and then when the city gives its final approval in phases 4 and 5. I think that as a 50 per cent owner of the land, it is quite possible to say that unless we see two schools included on the sites, we are not prepared, at this time, to move forward. Certainly that is a message that could be sent.
So, minister, I hope you hear our pleas. Thank you for listening.
Ms. Foote: Thank you for the opportunity to be here. I really appreciate it. It is always helpful for me to hear the views of others and be able to take them into account. While I can't respond positively to everything — and I've said that in my political life as a member of Parliament; I say the same thing as a minister of the Crown — I will do my very best. You need to know that when I was the Minister of Education in Newfoundland, I opened a French school.
[Translation]
The Chair: Congratulations, Madam Minister. I thank you and your team.
Our meeting is still public. Two motions now need to be introduced before the committee. I would ask Senator McIntyre to please present the first motion.
Senator McIntyre: Thank you Madam Chair. The first motion reads as follows:
That pursuant to the order adopted by the Senate on December 7, 2016, the membership of the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be increased by one non-voting member chosen from the senators who are not members of a recognized party, to be designated after the usual considerations.
The Chair: It is moved by the Honourable Senator McIntyre, seconded by the Honourable Senator Bovey —
Senator Maltais: We agree. It is fine.
Some Hon. Senators: Agreed!
The Chair: The motion is passed. Thank you.
I invite Senator Mockler to present the second motion now.
Senator Mockler: I have the honour of proposing to the committee that Senator Maltais replace Senator Poirier on the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure in Senator Poirier's absence.
The Chair: Do you agree, Senator Maltais?
Senator Maltais: Yes, since it is temporary.
The Chair: Do you all agree?
Some Hon. Senators: Agreed!
The Chair: Thank you very much.
We will now continue our meeting in camera.
(The committee continued in camera.)