Journals of the Senate
47 Elizabeth II, A.D. 1998, Canada
Journals of the Senate
Issue 94
Thursday, November 19, 1998
2:00 p.m.
The Honourable Gildas L. Molgat, Speaker
The Members convened were:
The Honourable Senators
Andreychuk, Angus, Atkins, Beaudoin, Berntson, Bolduc, Bryden, Butts, Callbeck, Carstairs, Cohen, Comeau, Cook, Cools, Corbin, De Bané, DeWare, Di Nino, Doody, Eyton, Fairbairn, Ferretti Barth, Fitzpatrick, Forrestall, Fraser, Gauthier, Ghitter, Gill, Grafstein, Graham, Gustafson, Hays, Hervieux-Payette, Johnstone, Joyal, Kelly, Kenny, Keon, Kinsella, Kirby, Kroft, Lavoie-Roux, Lawson, LeBreton, Losier-Cool, Lynch-Staunton, Maloney, Meighen, Mercier, Milne, Molgat, Murray, Nolin, Oliver, Pearson, Pépin, Phillips, Pitfield, Poy, Prud'homme, Robichaud , (L'Acadie-Acadia), Robichaud , (Saint-Louis-de-Kent), Roche, Rompkey, Rossiter, Ruck, Simard, Sparrow, Stewart, Stollery, Taylor, Tkachuk, Watt, Whelan, Wilson
The Members in attendance to business were:
The Honourable Senators
Andreychuk, Angus, Atkins, *Austin, *Bacon, Beaudoin, Berntson, Bolduc, Bryden, *Buchanan, Butts, Callbeck, *Carney, Carstairs, *Chalifoux, Cohen, Comeau, Cook, Cools, Corbin, De Bané, DeWare, Di Nino, Doody, Eyton, Fairbairn, Ferretti Barth, Fitzpatrick, Forrestall, Fraser, Gauthier, Ghitter, Gill, Grafstein, Graham, Gustafson, Hays, Hervieux-Payette, Johnstone, Joyal, Kelly, Kenny, Keon, Kinsella, Kirby, Kroft, Lavoie-Roux, Lawson, LeBreton, Losier-Cool, Lynch-Staunton, *Maheu, Maloney, Meighen, Mercier, Milne, Molgat, *Moore, Murray, Nolin, Oliver, Pearson, Pépin, Phillips, Pitfield, *Poulin (Charette), Poy, Prud'homme, Robichaud , (L'Acadie-Acadia), Robichaud , (Saint-Louis-de-Kent), Roche, Rompkey, Rossiter, Ruck, Simard, Sparrow, *Spivak, Stewart, Stollery, Taylor, Tkachuk, Watt, Whelan, Wilson
PRAYERS
SENATORS' STATEMENTS
Some Honourable Senators made statements.DAILY ROUTINE OF BUSINESS
Presentation of Reports from Standing or Special Committees
The Honourable Senator Gustafson, Chair of the Standing Senate Committee on Agriculture and Forestry, presented its Seventh Report (budget-study on the present state and the future of agriculture in Canada).Ordered, That the Report be printed as an Appendix to the Journals of the Senate of this day and form part of the permanent records of this House.
The Honourable Senator Gustafson moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Cohen, that the Report be placed on the Orders of the Day for consideration at the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted. The Honourable Senator Nolin, presented the following:
THURSDAY, November 19, 1998
The Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration has the honour to present its
TWENTY-SEVENTH REPORT
Special Committee on Security and Intelligence (Supple mentary Budget):
|
Professional and Other Services |
$ 30,000 |
|
TOTAL |
$ 30,000 |
Standing Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology (Veterans Affairs) (Supplementary Budget):
|
Professional and Other Services |
$ 9,000 |
|
TOTAL |
$ 9,000 |
Respectfully submitted,
PIERRE CLAUDE NOLIN
Deputy Chair
The Honourable Senator Nolin, moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Mercier, that the Report be placed on the Orders of the Day for consideration at the next sitting.The question being put on the motion, it was adopted. The Honourable Senator Nolin, presented the following:
THURSDAY, November 19, 1998
The Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration has the honour to present its
TWENTY-EIGHTH REPORT
Your Committee recommends that the pay scales of unrepresented employees be increased by 2.5% effective April 1, 1998.Respectfully submitted,
PIERRE CLAUDE NOLIN
Deputy Chair
The Honourable Senator Nolin, moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Mercier, that the Report be placed on the Orders of the Day for consideration at the next sitting.The question being put on the motion, it was adopted. The Honourable Senator Tkachuk, Deputy Chair of the Standing Senate Committee on Banking, Trade and Commerce, tabled its Sixteenth Report (Interim) entitled: "The Governance Practices of Institutional Investors".-Sessional Paper No. 1/36-924S.
The Honourable Senator Tkachuk, moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Cohen, that the Report be placed on the Orders of the Day for consideration at the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted. The Honourable Senator Murray, P.C., Chair of the Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology, presented its Thirteenth Report (budget-study on the state of health care in Canada concerning veterans of war and Canadian Service persons).
Ordered, That the Report be printed as an Appendix to the Journals of the Senate of this day and form part of the permanent records of this House.
With leave of the Senate, The Honourable Senator Murray, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Phillips, that the Report be placed on the Orders of the Day for consideration later this day.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Tabling of Reports from Inter-Parliamentary Delegations.
The Honourable Senator Losier-Cool tabled the following:Report of the Canadian Section of the Assemblée parlementaire de la Francophonie respecting its participation at the APF Bureau meeting, held in Abidjan, Ivory Coast, on July 4, 1998.-Sessional Paper No. 1/36-925.
Report of the Canadian Section of the Assemblée parlementaire de la Francophonie respecting its participation at the XXIVth ordinary session of the APF, held in Abidjan, Ivory Coast, from July 7 to 9, 1998.-Sessional Paper No. 1/36-926.
Notices of Motions
With leave of the Senate, The Honourable Senator Stewart moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Pearson:That notwithstanding the Order of the Senate adopted on October 28, 1997, and the motion adopted October 21, 1998, the Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs, which was authorised to examine and report on the growing importance of the Asia Pacific region for Canada, be empowered to table its final report no later than December 3, 1998.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
With leave of the Senate, The Honourable Senator Kelly moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Kinsella:
That notwithstanding the Order of the Senate adopted on September 29, 1998, the Special Committee of the Senate on Security and Intelligence be empowered to present its final report no later than December 17, 1998.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
ORDERS OF THE DAY
GOVERNMENT BUSINESS
Reports of Committees
Consideration of the Seventh Report of the Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs (Bill C-52, An Act to implement the Comprehensive Nuclear Test-Ban Treaty, with an amendment) presented in the Senate on November 18, 1998.The Honourable Senator Stewart moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Callbeck, that the Report be adopted.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
The Honourable Senator Corbin moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Fitzpatrick, that the Bill, as amended, be placed on the Orders of the Day for a third reading at the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
OTHER BUSINESS
Senate Public Bills
Order No. 1 was called and postponed until the next sitting.Commons Public Bills
Order No. 1 was called and postponed until the next sitting.Reports of Committees
Consideration of the First Report of the Special Joint Committee on Child Custody and Access (extension of reporting date), presented in the Senate on November 17, 1998.The Honourable Senator Pearson moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Butts, that the Report be adopted.
Debate.
DEFERRED DIVISION
At 3:30 p.m., and pursuant to Rule 66(3), the Senate proceeded to the taking of the deferred recorded division on the motion in amendment of the Honourable Senator Murray, P.C., to the motion of the Honourable Senator Fitzpatrick, seconded by the Honourable Senator Ruck, for the third reading of Bill C-29, An Act to establish the Parks Canada Agency and to amend other Acts as a consequence.The question was put on the motion in amendment of the Honourable Senator Murray, P.C., seconded by the Honourable Senator Phillips, that the Bill be not now read a third time but that it be read a third time this day six months hence.
The motion in amendment was negatived on the following division:
YEAS-POUR
The Honourable Senators-Les honorables sénateurs
Andreychuk , Angus, Atkins, Beaudoin, Berntson, Bolduc, Cohen, Comeau, DeWare, Di Nino, Doody, Forrestall, Ghitter, Gustafson, Kelly, Keon, Kinsella, LeBreton, Lynch-Staunton, Meighen, Murray, Nolin, Oliver, Phillips, Pitfield, Rossiter, Simard, Tkachuk-28NAYS
The Honourable Senators
Bryden, Butts, Callbeck, Carstairs, Cook, Cools, Corbin, De Bané, Fairbairn, Ferretti Barth, Fitzpatrick, Fraser, Gill, Grafstein, Graham, Hays, Hervieux-Payette, Johnstone, Joyal, Kenny, Kirby, Kroft, Lawson, Losier-Cool, Maloney, Mercier, Milne, Pearson, Pépin, Poy, Robichaud, (L'Acadie-Acadia), Robichaud, (Saint-Louis-de-Kent), Rompkey, Ruck, Sparrow, Stewart, Stollery, Taylor, Watt, Whelan-40ABSTENTIONS
The Honourable Senators
Prud'homme, Roche-2The question then being put on the motion of the Honourable Senator Fitzpatrick seconded by the Honourable Senator Ruck, for the third reading of Bill C-29, An Act to establish the Parks Canada Agency and to amend other Acts as a consequence, it was adopted on division.
The Bill was then read the third time and passed, on division.Ordered, That a Message be sent to the House of Commons to acquaint that House that the Senate have passed this Bill, without amendment.
Reports of Committees
The Senate resumed debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Pearson, seconded by the Honourable Senator Butts, for the adoption of the First Report of the Special Joint Committee on Child Custody and Access (extension of reporting date), presented in the Senate on November 17, 1998.After debate, The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Orders No. 2 and 3 were called and postponed until the next sitting.Order No. 4 was called and pursuant to Rule 27(3) was dropped from the Order Paper.
Consideration of the Thirteenth Report of the Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology (budget-study on the state of health care in Canada concerning veterans of war and Canadian Service persons), presented in the Senate earlier today.The Honourable Senator Lynch-Staunton for the Honourable Senator Murray, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Atkins, that the Report be adopted.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.Other
Orders No. 44, 15, 34 (inquiries), 84 (motion), 1 (other), 88 (motion), 42, 23, 41 (inquiries), 45, 1 (motions) and 39 (inquiry) were called and postponed until the next sitting.________________________________________________
Ordered, That Order No. 84 (motion) be again called.Motion of the Honourable Senator Lynch-Staunton, seconded by the Honourable Senator Kinsella:
That the Senate reaffirm its unanimous support of the following motion passed without dissent on June 18, 1998:"That the Senate endorses and supports recommendation 1 of the Commission of Inquiry on the Blood System in Canada which calls upon provinces and territories to respond to the needs of those who suffered due to the management of the blood supply system;
That the Senate recognizes the leadership role played by the Government of Canada in formulating a Federal-Provincial compensation package for those infected with Hepatitis-C through the blood supply system between 1986 and 1990;That, in view of the fact that Federal and Provincial Governments have agreed to revisit the original agreement to seek a greater consensus concerning our response to this national tragedy, the Senate urges the Government of Canada and the Governments of the Provinces and Territories to take positive action to address the needs of those who suffer ill-effects from Hepatitis-C contracted through the blood system; and
That a copy of this motion be forwarded to each federal, provincial and territorial Minister of Health.".SPEAKER'S RULING
On Tuesday, November 3, after Motion No. 84, standing in the name of Senator Lynch-Staunton, had been moved, Senator Carstairs rose on a point of order to challenge its procedural acceptability. The Senator noted that an identical motion regarding the Senate's endorsement of recommendation 1 of the Krever Commission and the need on the part of the Federal and Provincial governments to take positive action had already been adopted by the Senate last June. Citing rule 63(1) of the Rules of the Senate and citation 558 of Beauchesne, 6th edition, at page 172, Senator Carstairs argued that the motion of Senator Lynch-Staunton contravened the "same question" rule which prohibits the introduction of motions or bills similar in substance to one already voted on.Speaking in defense of the motion's procedural validity, Senator Lynch-Staunton cited the same authorities as well as Beauchesne citation 654 at page 198 and claimed that the motion was acceptable since it was not contradictory to the decision of last June. As he explained: "We want to reaffirm that it continues to stand as the judgement of the House."
Senator Kinsella then spoke to suggest that I, as Speaker, give particular attention to the meaning of the words "the same in substance" when considering my ruling. Shortly afterwards, Senator Stewart offered an explanation of the origins of the "same question" rule. Its purpose, he said, was to avoid the repetition of debate on motions that have already been decided earlier in the session. Senator Grafstein then made reference to the dictionary meaning of the phrase "in the affirmative" to support the position of Senator Carstairs.I wish to thank those Honourable Senators who participated in the discussion on the point of order. I find such exchanges useful. While I am not always able to come up with a solution that will satisfy everyone, I make it my goal to apply the rules as best I can to promote the decision-making process of the Senate.
In this particular case, there seems to be little dispute about the fact that the motion now standing on the Order Paper in the name of the Leader of the Opposition is virtually word-for-word identical to the motion adopted by the Senate on June 18. Indeed, this fact is acknowledged by the use of quotation marks following the introductory statement of reaffirmation. That being the case, it would seem that the "same question" rule is applicable. The Leader of the Opposition contends, however, that due to changed circumstances, the request to have the Senate reaffirm its decision is appropriate. I note, however, that these circumstances are not incorporated into the motion proposed by the Leader of the Opposition. Instead, the motion simply seeks to reiterate the previous decision.In preparing my ruling, I read the commentary to rule 63 that is provided in the Companion to our Senate Rules published in 1994. I have also reviewed some applicable precedents. While the information is certainly relevant, there is no example that matches the striking feature of this case. The motion Senator Lynch-Staunton proposes to have the Senate consider again is not one that was rejected, but one that was in fact adopted. Despite the unusual aspect of this case, I did find the precedents useful.
One that occurred in June 1985 addressed a point of order with respect to the contents of a bill as it related to a motion on the budget. The Speaker at that time stated that "Our parliamentary jurisprudence requires that we have identical texts for rule [63] to apply." In another ruling, from the other place, mentioned in Beauchesne at citation 654 at page 198, the Speaker found that clauses from one bill which were identical to a bill that had already been defeated by a vote of the House had to be deleted. To my mind, these rulings reinforce the conclusion that whenever the texts of the motions are virtually identical the "same question" rule is applicable. Whether the rule might also apply in circumstances when the motions in dispute are not identical, but are the "same in substance" is a hypothetical question that need not be answered on this occasion.There is little doubt that the text of Motion No. 84 is basically identical to that which was adopted by the Senate on June 18. Consequently it is my decision that the point of order challenging the right to have the matter brought before the Senate again is well founded. To allow the motion to be put before the Senate would contravene the letter and intent of rule 63 and the established practices of this House. Motion No. 84 should be discharged from the Order Paper.
Accordingly, Motion No. 84 was discharged from the Order Paper.INQUIRIES
The Honourable Senator Grafstein called the attention of the Senate to the Report of the Canada-Europe Parliamentary Association to the Seventh Annual Session of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), held in Copenhagen, Denmark, from July 7 to 10, 1998.Debate concluded.
________________________________________
With leave, The Senate reverted to Government Notices of Motions.With leave of the Senate, The Honourable Senator Carstairs moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Grafstein:
That when the Senate adjourns today, it do stand adjourned until Tuesday next, November 24, 1998, at 2:00 p.m.The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
REPORTS DEPOSITED WITH THE CLERK OF THE SENATE PURSUANT TO RULE 28(2):
Reports of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans required by the Access to Information Act and the Privacy Act for the period ended March 31, 1998, pursuant to the Access to Information Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. A-1, sbs. 72(2) and the Privacy Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. P-21, sbs. 72(2).-Sessional Paper No. 1/36-923.ADJOURNMENT
The Honourable Senator Carstairs moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Mercier:That the Senate do now adjourn.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.