50 Elizabeth II, A.D. 2001, Canada

Journals of the Senate

1st Session, 37th Parliament

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Issue 46

Tuesday, June 12, 2001
2:00 p.m.

The Honourable Daniel Hays, Speaker

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The Members convened were:

The Honourable Senators

Adams, Andreychuk, Angus, Atkins, Austin, Bacon, Banks, Beaudoin, Bolduc, Bryden, Buchanan, Carstairs, Chalifoux, Christensen, Cochrane, Cohen, Comeau, Cook, Cools, Corbin, Cordy, De Bané, DeWare, Di Nino, Doody, Ferretti Barth, Finestone, Finnerty, Fitzpatrick, Forrestall, Fraser, Furey, Gauthier, Gill, Grafstein, Graham, Gustafson, Hays, Hervieux-Payette, Hubley, Joyal, Kelleher, Kenny, Keon, Kinsella, Kirby, Kolber, Kroft, Lawson, LeBreton, Losier-Cool, Lynch-Staunton, Maheu, Meighen, Milne, Moore, Morin, Murray, Nolin, Oliver, Pépin, Poulin (Charette), Poy, Prud'homme, Robertson, Robichaud, Roche, Rompkey, Rossiter, Setlakwe, Sibbeston, Simard, Sparrow, Spivak, St. Germain, Stollery, Stratton, Taylor, Tkachuk, Tunney, Watt, Wiebe

The Members in attendance to business were:

The Honourable Senators

Adams, Andreychuk, Angus, Atkins, Austin, Bacon, Banks, Beaudoin, Bolduc, Bryden, Buchanan, Carstairs, Chalifoux, Christensen, Cochrane, Cohen, Comeau, Cook, Cools, Corbin, Cordy, De Bané, DeWare, Di Nino, Doody, Ferretti Barth, Finestone, Finnerty, Fitzpatrick, Forrestall, Fraser, Furey, Gauthier, Gill, Grafstein, Graham, Gustafson, Hays, Hervieux-Payette, Hubley, Joyal, Kelleher, Kenny, Keon, Kinsella, Kirby, Kolber, Kroft, Lawson, LeBreton, Losier-Cool, Lynch-Staunton, Maheu, Meighen, Milne, Moore, Morin, Murray, Nolin, Oliver, *Pearson, Pépin, Poulin (Charette), Poy, Prud'homme, Robertson, Robichaud, Roche, Rompkey, Rossiter, Setlakwe, Sibbeston, Simard, Sparrow, Spivak, St. Germain, Stollery, Stratton, Taylor, Tkachuk, Tunney, Watt, Wiebe, *Wilson

PRAYERS

Tribute was paid to the Honourable Senator Cohen, who will retire from the Senate on July 23, 2001.

 

SENATORS' STATEMENTS

Some Honourable Senators made statements.

 

DAILY ROUTINE OF BUSINESS

Presentation of Reports from Standing or Special Committees

The Honourable Senator Murray, P.C., Chair of the Standing Senate Committee on National Finance, presented its Seventh Report (Bill C-18, An Act to amend the Federal-Provincial Fiscal Arrangements Act) without amendment.

With leave of the Senate,

The Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Graham, P.C., that the Bill be placed on the Orders of the Day for a third reading later this day.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

The Honourable Senator Murray, P.C., Chair of the Standing Senate Committee on National Finance, tabled its Eighth Report (2nd Interim) (Estimates 2001-02).-Sessional Paper No. 1/37-282S.

The Honourable Senator Kirby, Chair of the Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology, presented its Seventh Report (budget-release of additional funds).

(The Report is printed as Appendix "A")

The Honourable Senator Kirby moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Maheu, that the Report be placed on the Orders of the Day for consideration at the next sitting.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

The Honourable Senator Maheu, Joint Chair of the Standing Joint Committee on Official Languages tabled its Fifth Report (Interim) entitled: Study on the Bilingual Services Offered by Air Canada.-Sessional Paper No. 1/37-283S.

The Honourable Senator Maheu, Joint Chair of the Standing Joint Committee on Official Languages, presented its Fifth Report (A) (budget).

(The Report is printed as Appendix "B")

The Honourable Senator Maheu moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Kenny, that the Report be placed on the Orders of the Day for consideration at the next sitting.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

The Honourable Senator Stollery, Chair of the Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs, presented its Fifth Report (budget-release of additional funds).

(The Report is printed as Appendix "C")

The Honourable Senator Stollery moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Poulin, that the Report be placed on the Orders of the Day for consideration at the next sitting.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

The Honourable Senator Taylor, Chair of the Standing Senate Committee on Energy, the Environment and Natural Resources, presented its Seventh Report (budget-release of additional funds).

(The Report is printed as Appendix "D")

The Honourable Senator Taylor moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Watt, that the Report be placed on the Orders of the Day for consideration at the next sitting.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

The Honourable Senator Nolin, Chair of the Special Committee of the Senate on Illegal Drugs, presented its Second Report (budget-release of additional funds).

(The Report is printed as Appendix "E")

The Honourable Senator Nolin moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator LeBreton, that the Report be placed on the Orders of the Day for consideration at the next sitting.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

 

Government Notices of Motions

With leave of the Senate,

The Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Adams:

That when the Senate adjourns today, it do stand adjourned until tomorrow, Wednesday, June 13, 2001, at 1:30 p.m.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

 

Introduction and First Reading of Government Bills

A Message was brought from the House of Commons with a Bill C-25, An Act to amend the Farm Credit Corporation Act and to make consequential amendments to other Acts, to which they desire the concurrence of the Senate.

The Bill was read the first time.

With leave of the Senate,

The Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Graham, P.C., that the Bill be placed on the Orders of the Day for a second reading later this day.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

 

Introduction and First Reading of Senate Public Bills

The Honourable Senator Atkins presented a Bill S-30, An Act to amend the Canada Corporations Act (corporations sole).

The Bill was read the first time.

The Honourable Senator Atkins moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Robertson, that the Bill be placed on the Orders of the Day for a second reading two days hence.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

 

Tabling of Reports from Inter-Parliamentary Delegations

The Honourable Senator Poulin tabled the following:

Report of the Canadian Delegation of the Canada-Japan Inter-Parliamentary Group concerning the Eleventh Annual Meeting with their counterparts of the Diet of Japan, held in Ottawa and Montreal, from April 30 to May 4, 2001.-Sessional Paper No. 1/37-284.

 

MESSAGES FROM THE HOUSE OF COMMONS

A Message was brought from the House of Commons to return Bill S-3, An Act to amend the Motor Vehicle Transport Act, 1987 and to make consequential amendments to other Acts,

And to acquaint the Senate that the Commons have passed this Bill, without amendment.

 

ORDERS OF THE DAY

GOVERNMENT BUSINESS

Bills

Consideration of amendments by the House of Commons to Bill S-11, An Act to amend the Canada Business Corporations Act and the Canada Cooperatives Act and to amend other Acts:

1. Title: Replace the long title with the following:

"An Act to amend the Canada Business Corporations Act and the Canada Cooperatives Act and to amend other Acts in consequence"

2. Page 136: Clause 235 is deleted.

3. Page 136: Clause 236 is deleted.

4. Page 137: Clause 237 is deleted.

5. Page 137: Clause 238 is deleted.

The Honourable Senator Carstairs, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C.:

That the Senate concur in the amendments made by the House of Commons to this Bill without amendment; and

That a Message be sent to the House of Commons to acquaint that House accordingly.

After debate,

The Honourable Senator Tkachuk moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Nolin, that the amendments proposed by the House of Commons to Bill S-11 be not now concurred in but that they be referred to the Standing Senate Committee on Banking, Trade and Commerce.

After debate,

The question being put on the motion, it was negatived on division.

The question then being put on the main motion, it was adopted on division.

The Order was called to resume debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Sibbeston, seconded by the Honourable Senator Milne, for the third reading of Bill C-4 An Act to establish a foundation to fund sustainable development technology.

 

SPEAKER'S RULING

Yesterday, when debate was to resume on the third reading of Bill C-4, a bill establishing a foundation to fund sustainable development technology, Senator Lynch-Staunton raised a point of order to challenge the proceedings. In making his case, the Leader of the Opposition spoke to two issues. The first had to do with the fact that the government has already appropriated the monies intended to support the work of the foundation through the estimates. The second argument was based on the rule of anticipation.

The Senator claimed that according to the testimony of the Minister of Natural Resources before the Standing Committee on Energy, the Environment and Natural Resources, funds that were originally earmarked for the foundation in Bill C-46, the predecessor to Bill C-4 in the last Parliament, were set aside in the 2000-2001 budget. When Bill C-46 died on the Order Paper last year, the government proceeded to establish a non-profit corporation to hold these funds, or a portion of them, so that they would not lapse at the end of the fiscal year. These monies are to be transferred to the foundation once Bill C-4 is enacted.

In his view, the government's action was irregular, and possibly even illegal. To support his case, the Senator cited comments made by the acting Auditor General during her testimony before the committee. Should Bill C-4 be adopted under these circumstances, the Senator claimed, the Senate would be sanctioning an act of government which runs completely contrary to modern parliamentary democracy. In particular, he argued, it by-passes the House of Commons and the exercise of its authority over supply. To support this contention, the Senator referred to several parliamentary authorities including, Erskine May, Beauchesne's, Bourinot and Marleau and Montpetit.

With respect to the second matter, the rule of anticipation, Senator Lynch-Staunton argued that the establishment of the non-profit corporation presupposed the passage of Bill C-4 and, thus, clearly violated the rule of anticipation. Such an approach to legislation, the Senator noted, could pose some serious problems and financial accounting irregularities if it should happen that Bill C-4 not pass.

The Senator was careful to stress that he was not asking for a ruling from me as Speaker on the administrative practices of the government. Instead, he insisted that the Senate had only one choice: "to return this bill to its sponsor in order that the government first have the proper funding in place through the proper budgetary procedures."

Once Senator Lynch-Staunton had argued his case, several other Senators then intervened. Senator Robichaud challenged the right to raise a point of order since it had not been raised at the earliest opportunity. The Deputy Leader of the Government noted, moreover, that the funds in question were approved in the Estimates adopted by both Houses of Parliament. As he put it, "the government determined that the best means of furthering the objections for which Parliament [had] appropriated funds would be to transfer funds to a not-for-profit corporation established under Part II of the Canada Corporations Act, 1970."

Senator Kinsella then spoke to reject any suggestion that it was too late to raise a point of order, a position subsequently re-iterated by Senator Lynch-Staunton. If the Senate, according to Senator Kinsella, determines that there is a procedural problem with a bill prior to its final passage, it has a right to take remedial action. In this case, the procedural issue relates to the oversight by Parliament of government appropriations, particularly if Bill C-4 does not pass.

The Leader of the Government, Senator Carstairs, next spoke to deny that a valid point had been raised because nothing in the bill contravenes the Rules of the Senate. Indeed, it is her position that "the rules were followed. They were followed in the Chamber. They were followed in committee. They are now being followed $ at third reading of this bill. The government had approval for this money." Whatever dispute there might be about certain processes followed by the government with respect to Bill C-4, it was undeniable according to Senator Carstairs, that the bill was reported by the committee to the Senate without amendment.

Finally Senator Taylor provided some background information on some matters already raised in previous exchanges, particularly with respect to the testimony heard by the standing committee.

I want to thank all Honourable Senators for their participation in the debate on the point of order. I have paid special attention to the arguments made in respect to the role I might have in assessing this point of order and the steps that were proposed to deal with it by the Senate. Senator Lynch-Staunton has made it clear that he does not want a ruling from me addressing the administrative practices of the government. This is just as well because I have no authority as speaker to rule on them. Similarly, I have no authority to rule that the Senate return the bill to the other place so that the so-called proper budgetary process can be followed to fund the sustainable development foundation established through Bill C-4. Such a decision can only be taken by the Senate itself. As Speaker, I cannot rule on what was done, or not done, in the other place. All I can do is rule on what transpires here, in the Senate. In this regard, the position of the Leader of the Government seems particularly relevant. In all the arguments that were presented yesterday, there was no indication that any specific rules or practices of the Senate were breached. Consequently, there is nothing on which to make a ruling that would sustain the point of order..

As to the rule of anticipation raised by the Leader of the Opposition, I would observe that his comments revolve around the funding issue for the foundation and the presumption, allegedly assumed by the government, that Bill C-4 would pass the Senate and the other place substantially unchanged. Whatever one might say or think about such an assumption, it does not properly involve the rule of anticipation. This rule, in fact, deals with a conflict that can arise when the Senate takes decisive action on one of two or more items standing on the Order Paper that deal with substantially the same subject in the same way. Traditionally, the Senate, like most other parliamentary bodies, imposes on itself a restriction of deciding the same question more than once in the same session. The rule of anticipation supposes that the Senate will give priority to the item that is regarded more effective procedurally. This is my understanding of the rule of anticipation and it does not apply in this case.

For these reasons, it is my ruling that there is no point of order.

There still remains one matter on which I feel I should comment on and that is the question of "first opportunity" with respect to raising a point of order. As it relates to a bill still before the Senate, there is no time limit on raising a point of order at anytime the bill is called for debate following first reading. The notion of "first opportunity" does not really apply to points of order; it is rather a qualification that pertains to questions of privilege and the "fast track" procedures outlined in rule 43. Thus it was perfectly in order for the Leader of the Opposition to raise his point of order whatever the outcome of the ruling.

Debate on the motion for the third reading of Bill C-4 can now continue.

The Senate resumed debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Sibbeston, seconded by the Honourable Senator Milne, for the third reading of Bill C-4 An Act to establish a foundation to fund sustainable development technology.

After debate,

The Honourable Senator Cochrane moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Spivak, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C., seconded by the Honourable Senator Adams, for the third reading of Bill C-13, An Act to amend the Excise Tax Act.

After debate,

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

The Bill was then read the third time and passed.

Ordered, That a Message be sent to the House of Commons to acquaint that House that the Senate have passed this Bill, without amendment.

Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Carstairs, P.C., seconded by the Honourable Senator Adams, for the third reading of Bill C-26, An Act to amend the Customs Act, the Customs Tariff, the Excise Act, the Excise Tax Act and the Income Tax Act in respect of tobacco.

After debate,

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

The Bill was then read the third time and passed.

Ordered, That a Message be sent to the House of Commons to acquaint that House that the Senate have passed this Bill, without amendment.

Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Banks, seconded by the Honourable Senator Bacon, for the third reading of Bill C-22, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act, the Income Tax Application Rules, certain Acts related to the Income Tax Act, the Canada Pension Plan, the Customs Act, the Excise Tax Act, the Modernization of Benefits and Obligations Act and another Act related to the Excise Tax Act.

After debate,

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted on division.

The Bill was then read the third time and passed, on division.

Ordered, That a Message be sent to the House of Commons to acquaint that House that the Senate have passed this Bill, without amendment.

Order No. 6 was called and postponed until the next sitting.

Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Banks, seconded by the Honourable Senator Ferretti Barth, for the third reading of Bill C-3, An Act to amend the Eldorado Nuclear Limited Reorganization and Divestiture Act and the Petro-Canada Public Participation Act.

After debate,

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

The Bill was then read the third time and passed.

Ordered, That a Message be sent to the House of Commons to acquaint that House that the Senate have passed this Bill, without amendment.

Second reading of Bill C-28, An Act to amend the Parliament of Canada Act, the Members of Parliament Retiring Allowances Act and the Salaries Act.

The Honourable Senator Carstairs, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C., that the Bill be read the second time.

After debate,

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

The Bill was then read the second time.

The Honourable Senator Carstairs, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C., that the Bill be placed on the Orders of the Day for a third reading at the next sitting.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

Order No. 9 was called and postponed until the next sitting.

Second reading of Bill C-25, An Act to amend the Farm Credit Corporation Act and to make consequential amendments to other Acts.

The Honourable Senator Tunney moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Hubley, that the Bill be read the second time.

After debate,

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

The Bill was then read the second time.

The Honourable Senator Tunney moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Morin, that the Bill be referred to the Standing Senate Committee on Agriculture and Forestry.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

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With leave of the Senate,

The Honourable Senator Gustafson moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Atkins:

That the Standing Senate Committee on Agriculture and Forestry have power to sit while the Senate is sitting today, and that Rule 95(4) be suspended in relation thereto.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

With leave of the Senate,

The Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C.:

That the Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology have power to sit at 6:30 p.m. today, even though the Senate may then be sitting, and that Rule 95(4) be suspended in relation thereto.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

 

Bills

Third reading of Bill C-18, An Act to amend the Federal-Provincial Fiscal Arrangements Act.

The Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Hervieux-Payette, P.C., that the Bill be read the third time.

After debate,

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

The Bill was then read the third time and passed.

Ordered, That a Message be sent to the House of Commons to acquaint that House that the Senate have passed this Bill, without amendment.

 

OTHER BUSINESS

Senate Public Bills

Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Kinsella, seconded by the Honourable Senator Keon, for the third reading of Bill S-6, An Act to assist in the prevention of wrongdoing in the Public Service by establishing a framework for education on ethical practices in the workplace, for dealing with allegations of wrongdoing and for protecting whistleblowers.

After debate,

The Honourable Senator Kinsella moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Comeau, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

Orders No. 2 and 3 were called and postponed until the next sitting.

Ordered, That notwithstanding Rule 27(3), Order No. 4 (Bill S-21) remain on the Order Paper for another fifteen consecutive sitting days.

 

Reports of Committees

Consideration of the First Report of the Standing Senate Committee on Human Rights (budget) presented in the Senate on June 7, 2001.

The Honourable Senator Andreychuk moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Bolduc, that the Report be adopted.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

Order No. 2 was called and postponed until the next sitting.

 

Other

Orders No. 2 (inquiry) and 41 (motions) were called and postponed until the next sitting.

Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Poy, seconded by the Honourable Senator Carney, P.C.:

That May be recognized as Asian Heritage Month, given the important contributions of Asian Canadians to the settlement, growth and development of Canada, the diversity of the Asian community, and its present significance to this country.

After debate,

The Honourable Senator Kinsella moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Lynch-Staunton, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

Orders No. 7 (inquiry), 3 (motion), 18, 20, 13, 16 (inquiries), 44 (motion), 6, 11, 5, 10 and 8 (inquiries) were called and postponed until the next sitting.

 

MOTIONS

The Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Watt:

That the Standing Senate Committee on National Finance be authorized to examine and report on the effectiveness of the present equalization policy in ensuring that provincial governments have sufficient revenues to provide reasonably comparable levels of public service at reasonably comparable levels of taxation; and

That the Committee report no later than December 21, 2001.

After debate,

In amendment, the Honourable Senator Comeau moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Lynch-Staunton, that the motion be amended by inserting after the words "effectiveness of" the words "and possible improvements to."

The question being put on the motion in amendment, it was adopted.

The Senate resumed debate on the motion, as amended, of the Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C., seconded by the Honourable Senator Watt:

That the Standing Senate Committee on National Finance be authorized to examine and report on the effectiveness of and possible improvements to the present equalization policy in ensuring that provincial governments have sufficient revenues to provide reasonably comparable levels of public service at reasonably comparable levels of taxation; and

That the Committee report no later than December 21, 2001.

After debate,

The question being put on the motion, as amended, it was adopted.

The Honourable Senator Carstairs, P.C., for the Honourable Senator Kirby moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Watt:

That the Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology have power to sit on Wednesday, June 13, 2001, at 3:30 p.m., even though the Senate may then be sitting, and that Rule 95(4) be suspended in relation thereto.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

 

REPORTS DEPOSITED WITH THE CLERK OF THE SENATE PURSUANT TO RULE 28(2):

Report of the Canadian International Trade Tribunal for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2001, pursuant to the Canadian International Trade Tribunal Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. 47 (4th Supp.), s. 42.-Sessional Paper No. 1/37-279.

Report on Northern oil and gas for the year ended December 31, 2000, pursuant to the Canada Petroleum Resources Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. 36 (2nd Supp.), s. 109.-Sessional Paper No. 1/37-280.

Report of the Patented Medicine Prices Review Board for the year ended December 31, 2000, pursuant to the Act to amend the Patent Act and to provide for certain matters in relation thereto, S.C. 1993, c. 2, s. 7.-Sessional Paper No. 1/37-281.

 

ADJOURNMENT

The Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C.:

That the Senate do now adjourn.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

(Accordingly, at 7:15 p.m. the Senate was continued until 1:30 p.m. tomorrow)

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Changes in Membership of Committees Pursuant to Rule 85(4)

Standing Senate Committee on National Finance

The name of the Honourable Senator Taylor substituted for that of the Honourable Senator Mahovlich (June 11).

The name of the Honourable Senator Rompkey added to the membership (June 11).

Standing Senate Committee on Transport and Communications

The name of the Honourable Senator De Bané substituted for that of the Honourable Senator Rompkey (June 11).

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