Proceedings of the Subcommittee on Post-Secondary education
Standing
Senate Committee on
Social Affairs, Science and Technology
Issue 1 - Evidence
OTTAWA, Tuesday, August 6, 1996
The Subcommittee on Post-Secondary education of the Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology, met this day at 11:15 a.m. to organize the activities of the committee respecting its inquiry into the state of Post-Secondary education in Canada.
[English]
Mr. John Desmarais, Acting Clerk of the Committee: Honourable senators, it is the duty of the clerk to preside over the election of the chair of the subcommittee, and I am prepared to entertain motions to that effect.
Senator Losier-Cool: Senator Bonnell started this investigation. He is in charge and has done a lot of work. I move that Senator Bonnell be the chair of the subcommittee.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: I second the motion.
Mr. Desmarais: Are there any other nominations? It is moved by the Honourable Senator Losier-Cool that the Honourable Senator Bonnell be elected chairman of this subcommittee. Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Senator M. Lorne Bonnell (Chairman) in the Chair.
The Chairman: Honourable senators, this is a very important subcommittee. I trust that it will run not on a political basis, but on a working basis for the betterment of EDUCATION in Canada and our students in Post-Secondary education. I hope that we can put our best efforts together to come up with a good report.
My first duty is to preside over the election of a deputy chair.
Senator Bosa: I nominate Senator Lavoie-Roux as deputy chair.
The Chairman: Senator Lavoie-Roux, are you prepared to act as deputy chair?
Senator Lavoie-Roux: So that we can struggle together?
The Chairman: No, we will not struggle; we will work together this time.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: What about Senator DeWare?
The Chairman: She would be a good deputy chair.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: She has a lot of experience.
Senator DeWare, why do you not accept the deputy chairmanship of the committee?
Senator Bosa: Senator Lavoie-Roux, I thought you wanted balanced representation?
Senator Lavoie-Roux: I do.
Senator Bosa: I do not know whether the chairman of the main committee can also be the deputy chairman of the subcommittee and serve both committees well.
The Chairman: I was the chairman of Social Affairs and I was the deputy chairman of Veterans Affairs. Therefore, Senator DeWare can be deputy chair of the subcommittee.
Senator DeWare: Will you accept your nomination as deputy chair?
Senator Lavoie-Roux: Yes.
The Chairman: We have a motion before us that Senator Lavoie-Roux be made deputy chair? Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
Senator Lavoie-Roux, you are now the Deputy Chair of the Subcommittee on Post-Secondary education.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: I am honoured.
The Chairman: Item no. 4 on the agenda relates to the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure, which is more commonly known as the steering committee.
Senator Losier-Cool: Mr. Chairman, I move:
That the Steering Committee be composed of the Chair, the Deputy Chair and one other member of the Committee to be designated after the usual consultation.
Senator DeWare: We can perhaps discuss that later.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: There could be consultation with the whip on the third person. Then we have to wait for the two or three other members to be appointed to the subcommittee. We can then decide the third member of the steering committee.
The Chairman: We have five members now, but we can add two more. Senator Bosa wants to replace himself with a senator from Ontario.
Senator Bosa: I will bring forward three names to be permanent members of the committee.
The Chairman: Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
Senator Losier-Cool: Mr. Chairman, I also move:
That the Steering Committee be empowered to make decisions an behalf of the Subcommittee with respect to its agenda and procedure;
That the Steering Committee be empowered to invite witnesses and schedule hearings; and
That the Steering Committee report its decisions to the Subcommittee.
The Chairman: Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
Item no. 5 on the agenda is a motion to print the proceedings of the subcommittee.
Senator Bosa: Honourable senators, I move:
That the Subcommittee print 500 copies of its Proceedings and that the Chair be authorized to adjust the number to meet demand.
The Chairman: Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
Item no. 6 on the agenda is a motion authorizing meetings to be held and to print evidence when a quorum is not present.
Senator DeWare: Honourable senators, I move:
That, pursuant to Rule 89, the Chair be authorized to hold meetings, to receive and authorize the printing of the evidence when a quorum is not present.
You cannot take any votes, but you can hear witnesses.
The Chairman: Shall that motion carry?
Senator Lavoie-Roux: I have some doubts about this motion. Do I understand that we could hold meetings when we do not have a quorum?
The Chairman: Yes.
Senator Bosa: What is a quorum?
The Chairman: It all depends on the number of members. We have seven members.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: It would be four.
Senator DeWare: If someone were testifying at a meeting and because of a snow storm only a couple of members showed up, you could still hear the evidence. However, you could not take a vote.
The Chairman: That is in the Rules of the Senate.
Senator Bosa: The quorum could be three members; it does not have to be four. A full committee is 12 and the quorum is four.
The Chairman: Are you making a motion that the quorum be made three?
Senator Bosa: Do I make a motion at this stage?
The Chairman: In order to hold a vote, there must be at least three members.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: I think the quorum should be four.
The Chairman: All you need is four when you have 12 members.
Senator Bosa: We have four with 12 members, Senator Lavoie-Roux.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: Yes, but this is a subcommittee composed of seven members. If we have a quorum of four, we can have a majority vote, but what do we do with a quorum of three?
The Chairman: If there are three, both parties must be represented.
Senator Bosa: That goes without saying. Both parties must be present in order for the quorum to be valid.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: If everyone is happy with that, I will not create problems, but I want to ensure it is safe with respect to a decision that could entail expenses and policies. Usually a quorum is half plus one.
Perhaps the clerk could check to see if three senators can comprise a quorum.
Senator Bosa: I move that three be the quorum of our subcommittee of seven.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: The clerk must first check to see if three is a proper number.
Mr. Desmarais: There are two motions before the subcommittee: first, that the subcommittee receive and authorize the printing of evidence without a quorum; second, that the quorum be three.
The Chairman: Honourable senators, the first motion states:
That, pursuant to Rule 89, the Chair be authorized to hold meetings, to receive and authorize the printing of the evidence when a quorum is not present.
Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
Senator Bosa has moved that the quorum for our subcommittee consist of three members with both parties present.
Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
The next item on our agenda deals with research staff. Could I have a motion to that effect?
Senator Losier-Cool: Honourable senators, I move:
That the Subcommittee ask the Library of Parliament to assign research officers to the Subcommittee; and/or
That the Steering Committee be authorized to negotiate the contracts and retain the services of such experts as may be required by the work of the Subcommittee; and
That the Chair, on behalf of the Subcommittee, direct the research staff in the preparation of studies, analyses and summaries.
The Chairman: Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Senator Lavoie-Roux: I have a problem with the part of the motion stating "That the Chair, on behalf of the Subcommittee, direct the research staff to prepare studies, analyses and summaries." I have my doubts about leaving the whole of that responsibility to the chair. It should be left to the steering committee.
Senator Losier-Cool: I agree.
Senator DeWare: It should read, "That the Steering Committee, on behalf of the Subcommittee, direct the research staff in the preparation of studies, analyses and summaries."
Senator Bosa: The chair will do that on the mandate of the steering committee.
Senator DeWare: That is right. At least, he must talk to them first.
The Chairman: Is it agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
Item no. 8 on the agenda relates to the authority to commit funds and certify accounts.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: Honourable senators, I move:
That pursuant to section 32 of the Financial Administration Act, authority to commit funds be conferred on the Chair or, in the Chair's absence, the Deputy Chair; and
That pursuant to section 34 of the Financial Administration Act, and Guideline 3:05 of Appendix II of the Rules of the Senate, authority for certifying accounts payable by the Subcommittee be conferred on the Chair, the Deputy Chair and/or the Clerk of the Subcommittee.
Actually, Mr. Chairman, I have one question on the motion I just read. The steering committee or the whole committee must have a say in our budget.
The Chairman: This motion relates more or less to paying the bills.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: On another committee, Senator Neiman asked me to sign the bill, but that was okay.
These expenses have to be agreed to. I want to be sure of that before we give permission to the chair and the deputy chair to sign the bills.
The Chairman: I think this means that we have a budget which will be approved by the full committee. We want to pay the researcher or we may want to pay someone else. The clerk cannot pay on his own. He must have the signature of the chairman or the deputy chairman on the cheque to make it acceptable; is that right?
Senator Lavoie-Roux: I so move, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman: Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
Item no. 9 on the agenda relates to the travelling and living expenses of witnesses.
Senator DeWare: Honourable senators, I move:
That, pursuant to the Senate guidelines for witnesses' expenses, the Subcommittee may reimburse reasonable travelling and living expenses for no more than one witness from any one organization and payment will take place upon application.
The Chairman: Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
Senator Bosa: Should there be a motion with respect to the committee travelling?
The Chairman: It is already in the terms of reference.
Are there any other matters to come before the committee at this time?
Senator Lavoie-Roux: I will reiterate the request I made before. We should ensure that our objectives are well focused and include parameters that will guide us in order to avoid possible controversy. When we meet the press to tell them that we have selected the members for the subcommittee, perhaps we can present them with our terms of reference, enunciated in a concise and clear way.
The Chairman: The terms of reference are already stated in a clear way in the order from the Senate. We can only do what the Senate has given us permission to do. We receive our authority from the Senate.
As far as the press is concerned, I suggest that we not all go running to the press in different ways, saying different things and confusing the press. Unless the chair makes a press release that he will meet someone or do something, I suggest that we not all run to the press.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: After we tell the press in a public statement that the composition of the subcommittee has been set, I foresee a phone call from the press saying, "Are you not putting your nose in matters where it does not belong?" That is why I want our objectives to be clear and concise.
The Chairman: Since we do not propose to spend much money on advertising and promotion publicly, perhaps we might give the Journalism Faculty at Carleton University a small grant. Perhaps some of their students who are involved in EDUCATION and studying for their Master's degrees in Journalism could get involved and take on the project. Four or five of their students could write up a nice press release that we could approve.
Senator Bosa: I think what Senator Lavoie-Roux is concerned about is that EDUCATION is a sensitive issue and is strictly of provincial jurisdiction. She is concerned that if a member of the subcommittee speaks to the media in an interview, they might say something to imply that we are interfering in a jurisdiction where we have no right to interfere.
Senator DeWare: In the Senate chamber, Senator Bonnell moved:
That, while respecting provincial constitutional responsibilities, the Committee be authorized to examine and report upon the state of Post-Secondary education in Canada, including the review of --
and here is where we could get into trouble --
(a) the national, regional, provincial and local goals of the Canadian Post-Secondary education system;
Still, as you say, it is under provincial jurisdiction. We cannot do the whole thing without looking at it all. Senator Bonnell's motion also says, "while respecting provincial constitutional responsibilities."
The Chairman: That is what we have to do all the way through our study. If we do not do that, we will find ourselves in real trouble.
Senator Bosa: What if they ask us about our purpose?
Senator Losier-Cool: Always go back to the terms of reference.
The Chairman: I have here a list of potential witnesses for the Subcommittee on Post-Secondary education and our student hearings in Ottawa.
Senator DeWare: Our clerk, Jill Anne Pickard, suggested that it might be a good idea to launch our hearings in Ottawa with student participation to get some hype and feedback from them about what route we should take.
Senator Bosa: Mr. Chairman, a journalist may ask us, "What is the purpose of this study?" A journalist may ask, "Is your purpose to find out whether our learning institutions are wasting money, whether the dollars that we transfer to the provinces for EDUCATION purposes are well spent, and whether the dollars being spent have produced a saleable product?"
The Chairman: If you get a copy of the terms of reference, you will find out exactly what we said.
Senator DeWare: Those terms are not in your motion. You did not say that.
The Chairman: I did not talk about spending money wisely or unwisely. I had thought we could look at that and make some suggestions. However, I do not think we should start telling the provinces how they should spend their money. We should tell them what they should expect for results. We want these students to have jobs when they graduate. We want these students to be trained to a high standard. They tell me that some of the people attending university now are illiterate.
Senator Bosa: Wanting students to be trained properly means that we will have to tell the provinces how to train them.
The Chairman: We are going to "advise" the provinces.
Senator Bosa: This is what Senator Lavoie-Roux is concerned about. A slip of the tongue from the chairman or anyone else can generate controversy that might derail the objectives of the committee.
The Chairman: Senator Lavoie-Roux has identified a major problem. We have to be careful about that.
We are thinking about hearing witnesses in late September. We want to give a high profile to the students and a high profile to the committee.
Senator DeWare: We will not mention the timing, but we should launch the hearings of the subcommittee in Ottawa with input from the students so that they can set our agenda and give us some direction on where we should go with this study.
The Chairman: Will you make a motion to that effect?
Senator DeWare: I move that we launch the study in Ottawa and hear any witnesses wishing to appear before the subcommittee, including students from universities.
The Chairman: You presented a list to me earlier.
Senator DeWare: A couple of potential witnesses should not be on there. Number three, the Bureau of International EDUCATION, is not a student organization. The Humanities and Social Sciences Federation of Canada is not a student organization, but they could be invited. Some of them will come.
I will move that the subcommittee start that way, but it will be up to the steering committee.
The Chairman: Senators, you have heard the motion. Shall it carry?
Senator Losier-Cool: I agree with the motion that the subcommittee be launched in Ottawa, but do we not need another meeting with the full membership of the subcommittee?
The Chairman: We probably should have one meeting so we know what questions to ask.
Senator Losier-Cool: Before we contact any of the groups, because some members of the subcommittee may wish to see other senators on the subcommittee, could we decide who will be at the launching?
Senator DeWare: I do not imagine we will be back here much before September 25.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: Have these potential witnesses requested to be heard? Who made these suggestions?
Senator DeWare: They came from our clerk, Jill Anne Pickard. This is a list of suggestions only.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: They are not people who have asked to be heard.
Senator DeWare: Some have asked to be heard. I have seven letters from student organizations asking to appear before the subcommittee.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: I see that there is no one from Quebec.
Senator DeWare: This does not have anything to do with the hearings. I am referring to the launching. Once we go to Quebec, we will hear from all the students.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: Why is there not a group from Quebec here?
Senator DeWare: I do not know. I did not draft this list. These names are just suggestions. The steering committee has to meet to decide whom we will hear.
Let us make the motion simple. I move:
That we launch the hearings in Ottawa with student organizations.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: Are you suggesting that we leave of the list of names underneath?
Senator DeWare: Right.
The Chairman: Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
Students have no money.
Senator DeWare: They have computers. They can write.
The Chairman: However, they will need lead time to get their thoughts together.
Senator Bosa: Should that not come under the budget, when the committee gets together to formulate a budget? Should we make a motion like that when we do not have a budget?
The Chairman: You do not know what motion I was about to make.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: Student associations have money. They collect from every student, and it is not just $5 a year. They are not that poor.
The Chairman: I was suggesting that someone make a motion to the effect that the chair be allowed to contact the different colleges and universities in the area to invite them to attend our launching. If they wish to come, perhaps they could prepare a brief. It would be nice if they had two or three weeks to get their briefs ready, in both official languages.
Senator DeWare: I think we need a steering committee meeting.
The Chairman: The full committee has more power than the steering committee.
Senator DeWare: Senator Lavoie-Roux wants to know who you will ask.
The Chairman: The steering committee will decide who we will ask. I am merely saying that we need to let the universities know. For example, if the students of Carleton University ask if they can come, they can prepare a brief and appear before us on that launch date. If someone from Quebec City wishes to come and pay their way, that is fine because we have no budget yet; we have no money. I merely want to let the universities know ahead of time that we will have the launch.
Senator DeWare: You might want to have the launching at the university.
The Chairman: Why have all the members of the subcommittee go out to one university when we can have all the universities come here? If we go to Carleton University, the rest may say, "Why did you go to Carleton instead of Algonquin?"
Senator Bosa: Mr. Chairman, I move that the committee do now adjourn.
The committee adjourned.
OTTAWA, Tuesday, October 22, 1996
The Subcommittee on Post-Secondary education of the Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology, met this day at 10:00 a.m. to continue its inquiry into the state of Post-Secondary education in Canada.
Senator M. Lorne Bonnell (Chairman) in the Chair.
[English]
The Chairman: Honourable senators, this morning, we have representatives from the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development.
The mandate of this committee is to inquire into the serious state of Post-Secondary education in Canada, including the national, regional, provincial and local goals of Canadian Post-Secondary education systems; the social, cultural, economic and political importance of Post-Secondary education in Canada; the roles of the federal, provincial and territorial governments; and the ability of Canadian universities and colleges to respond to the new emerging EDUCATION in the marketplace, including the changing curriculum in new technologies, distance, continuing, cooperative, adult and part-time EDUCATION. We are also reviewing the Canada Student Loans program, the different provincial and territorial students' financial assistance programs, as well as the growing concerns over student indebtedness. We wish to identify areas for greater cooperation between all levels of government, the private sector and the EDUCATIONal institutions.
We would like to hear your comments on those issues.
Mr. Robert Coulter, Director, Indian Program Policy Directorate, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development: In terms of your reference, my remarks will be more closely related to the federal role in Post-Secondary education and the unique role of the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development in the Post-Secondary education system.
My colleagues and I appreciate this opportunity to appear before you this morning and to provide information on the Indian and Inuit post-EDUCATION assistance program as funded by the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development. I hope you will find this information useful in your review of Post-Secondary education in Canada.
In considering the opportunities to improve the quality of Indian EDUCATION, it is important to recognize that the control of Indian and Inuit EDUCATION is largely in the hands of First Nations and Indian authorities in Canada.
The First Nations and Indian authorities administer approximately 90 per cent of DIAND's budget. They set their own program guidelines. They make their own decisions on student support. They determine who gets funded, at what level, and for what period while these students are in the pursuit of their academic careers. Within the next two years, we anticipate the remaining 10 per cent of DIAND's budget, which is administered by DIAND regional offices, will be fully devolved to Indian and Inuit organizations.
The federal government's current policy of transferring authority for the EDUCATION program management to First Nations supports the objective of Indian self-reliance and self-government. The principles of empowerment and local management continue to shape and direct the federal government's initiatives in the development and delivery of EDUCATION programs for First Nations.
DIAND provides Post-Secondary education support to eligible Indian and Inuit students through the university college entrance preparation program. This program assists students with the cost of tuition fees, books and travel and provides living allowances when applicable.
Support is also provided to Post-Secondary education institutions for the development and delivery of special programs for Indian students in the Indian studies support program. I will return to those elements of DIAND's program in a moment.
The objective of the Post-Secondary education program is to support increased participation and success of Indians and Inuit students in recognized post-secondary courses of study, thereby improving participant employability.
Federal post-secondary expenditures on this program have grown from $73 million in 1985-86 to $269 million in 1996-97.
In 1994-95, $20 million was added to DIAND's Post-Secondary education budget to deal with the backlog of eligible students. This Red Book commitment enabled approximately 2,800 additional students to undertake post-secondary studies.
Enrolment has also increased from 11,170 in 1985-86 to approximately 26,000 students in 1995-96 -- almost a three-fold increase in 10 years.
The program has had clear benefits. As in the non-Indian community, there are strong links between EDUCATION and employment. It is interesting that the employment rates for students who do not complete grade 9, whether they are aboriginal or non-aboriginal, are roughly the same, as is the unemployment rate. That situation is the same for university graduates.
We see a few more differences on the income side where Indians with less than a grade 9 EDUCATION and Indians with a university EDUCATION lag behind the non-native community significantly.
Mr. Chairman, to help provide you with an understanding of the department's post-secondary program, I should like to give you a brief history of the origins of the program. I think it would be useful in your considerations.
Direct federal government support, intended to assist adult Indians and Inuit to acquire EDUCATION and training through post-secondary support, began in the 1950s although no specific program existed, per se.
In 1968, the department introduced a program of financial assistance for technical or vocational training for Indians and Inuit who were experiencing trouble getting support under the 1967 Adult Occupation Training Act.
In 1968, the program supported university- and college-level training, and in 1968-69, the department assisted about 250 students at the post-secondary level.
However, Post-Secondary education enrolment increased rapidly in the 1970s, reaching over 2,000 in 1975-76. As a result, in 1977, DIAND established the Post-Secondary education assistance program which was revised in 1989 to become the post-secondary student support program. In addition to the post-secondary student support program, in 1983 the department extended support to students enrolled in university and college entrance preparation programs.
In 1988, DIAND formalized its support to Indian and other post-secondary institutions for the development and delivery of special post-secondary programs for Indians under its Indian studies support program. I will come to that in a moment, but that is a program that supports the development of Indian EDUCATIONal institutions.
Within the department's program, there are three elements. The first is the post-secondary students support program. This is by far the largest element of the program. In 1995-96, it had a budget of $227 million or 87 per cent of the total program. The objective of this program is to encourage and support the EDUCATION and career development opportunities of Indian and Inuit people.
The program importantly provides three types of support. First, tuition support is provided to full-time and part-time students. It may include students' fees for registration, tuition, tutorials, initial professional certification and examination, and the cost of books and supplies. Second, travel support is provided for students who are required to live away from home. They may qualify for a return-travel grant every semester for themselves and dependants who reside with them. Third, support for living expenses can be provided to full-time students to cover the cost of food, shelter, daily transportation, day care, and contingency funding.
First Nations, importantly, have the flexibility to decide how many students will be supported and how much support will be given to each student. For example, one First Nation may wish to give priority to continuing students as well as current high school graduates, while others may wish to support students in certain academic streams such as health care, social sciences, or business. Those decisions are made by the First Nations in consultation with the students and the community.
Support may be provided for preparation in all levels of post-secondary EDUCATION, be it community college or CÉGEP diploma or certificate programs, undergraduate programs, or professional degree-granting programs. The duration of the support usually matches the official length of the program. For example, for a four-year bachelor's degree, they would provide assistance for four years. If the normal length of a community college course is two years, they would get funding and support for two years.
The second element of the program is the university and college entrance preparation program which had a budget of approximately $15 million in 1995-96, being 6 per cent of the department's total. The objective of this program is to provide financial support to Indian and Inuit students who are enrolled in university and college entrance preparation programs offered by Canadian post-secondary institutions, to enable them to obtain the academic level required for entrance to degree and diploma credit programs.
This is a very important program because, historically, a number of students have dropped out and they have tended to come back through this program into the post-secondary stream. That may be one reason that the program serves many mature students and has a very high proportion of women students. I will come to those numbers in a moment. Many single parents tend to come back into the post-secondary stream through this program.
The Indian studies support program had a budget of $19 million in 1995-96, or about 7 per cent of the total. The objective of this program is to support and improve opportunities for Indian students to complete post-secondary programs of study and to enhance Indian language, culture and traditions.
Under this program, funding is provided to Indian EDUCATION organizations, Indian post-secondary institutions and other post-secondary institutions for the development and delivery of special programs for Indian students. Under this program, funding is also provided to the Saskatchewan Indian Federated College to maintain a university-level focus on research and development in Indian EDUCATION and special programs. Those special programs include Indian EDUCATION, some language training at the Saskatchewan Indian Federated College and, more recently, a business focus.
In 1995-96, the Saskatchewan Indian Federated College had an enrolment of about 2,300 students and received $5.6 million through this program.
I have some statistics that may be useful to the committee. Interestingly, women represented 66.1 per cent of the student population last year. On-reserve residents received a little more than half of the support from this program.
This program is rather unique in terms of department programming in that it is available to students who normally reside both on and off reserve. Most of our programming supports on-reserve development and communities. It is available to individuals both on and off reserve.
Almost 90 per cent of the students supported were full-time students as opposed to part-time students. In 1994-95, there were about 3,750 graduates from the program. The major areas of study were general arts, social sciences, business and commerce, and EDUCATION. Those are the largest four areas where students study under the program.
A major concern for Indian and Inuit students, as with many other students in colleges and universities, is the rising cost of Post-Secondary education. These rising costs are driven mainly by increases in constitutional fees by colleges and universities across the country, with the possible exceptional of British Columbia, which has yet to raise fees.
DIAND's post-secondary budget has increased annually. However, as a result of rising EDUCATIONal costs, fewer new students are able to receive support from First Nations' organizations.
The Chairman: Can you tell me about non-status Indians? Do they get the same benefits?
Mr. Coulter: No. Our program is available to status Indians and Inuit as defined by the Indian Act.
The Chairman: Non-status Indians then would not benefit at all here?
Mr. Coulter: They would not benefit from this program, no.
[Translation]
Senator Losier-Cool: Thank you for your presentation. I always appreciate visual ones. As we know, native students often live in very remote regions. Will the information highway be used to develop programs? When it comes to the support that you provide to people living on reserves, there are no such programs in place. Could some at-home courses be given on the use of the Internet or Website?
[English]
Mr. Coulter: Industry Canada has recently undertaken an initiative to connect all First Nations' schools in Canada to SchoolNet. All the schools would be hooked up. This is a very important initiative, particularly to assist isolated and remote communities.
[Translation]
Senator Lavoie-Roux: Has the Department compared the cost at each level -- secondary, college and university -- for a native student or a member of the First Nations and for a non-native student? I relize that conditions are different. I would like to know the respective costs for each type of student at each level.
[English]
Mr. Steven Peach, Program Analyst, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development: Some comparison has been done, but our program, as Mr. Coulter pointed out in his presentation, is managed almost entirely by the First Nations. They have the flexibility to define the levels of support awarded to each student.
As far as tuition goes, that is generally paid at cost. That cost would be on par with any other Canadian student. The same generally goes for materials. There may be a difference in the living allowance structure of the program. Given the flexibility that is out there and because you have so many different administering organizations managing that part of the program, I am sure there would be some variation.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: I understand that there would be some variation, even within First Nations. However, for the government, how much does the EDUCATION of an Indian student cost at each level? How much does the federal government contribute to the EDUCATION of a non-Indian? What is the cost? I think it is important to know that. I understand that conditions are not the same and so, as you say, there is some flexibility. Some communities might judge it differently than others. In the books, as you should know, we have to take all those factors into account. What is the end cost of one Indian student versus one non-Indian student?
Mr. Coulter: I think the costs are roughly comparable.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: Do you have figures? They are roughly comparable, but do you have more exact figures?
Mr. Coulter: I do not have any with me. We could endeavour to get some.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: That would be useful.
Mr. Coulter: Approximately half of the elementary/secondary students attend school off reserve. For the most part, First Nations negotiate individual tuition agreements with provincial school boards. Those vary quite a bit across the country. As well, the other half of the students attend school on reserve, and we provide funding which is roughly comparable to the per capita amounts off reserve. There are some minor variances.
We could try to pull some of that information together for the committee if that would be helpful.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: The purpose of my question is not to suggest that we should cut it by 10 per cent or whatever. Let us say it is more costly for an Indian than a non-Indian. We are not sure but let us presume that for a moment. If it were more costly to postate an Indian student, we want to make sure that the money really goes to EDUCATIONal purposes and not to subsidize school boards or other arrangements that can be made with universities or CÉGEP. They pay their due share and that is fine. However, if there is more money there, my preoccupation is to ensure that the money is really used --
[Translation]
--to help balance the budgets of all these authorities, but also to provide the widest possible range of services to native students. That is the gist of my question.
[English]
The Chairman: Perhaps you could get a copy of those statistics. When you come up with them, please pass them on to our clerk, Mrs. Joseph.
Senator Andreychuk: Surely there is an additional cost for Indian students because they must be integrated into an EDUCATIONal environment which is not necessarily suitable to them. It does not work with their backgrounds. Surely there is a cost for that. Is that not the cost of your support program basically?
Mr. Coulter: The Indian studies support program, which I referred to here, funds more the development of special language, culture-and-tradition programs by post-secondary institutions. Most of the money, in fact, goes to First Nations' post-secondary institutions.
Senator Andreychuk: A native person comes off of the reserve. You have said that they have not been able to come into the system. They had to go through a support system to make them EDUCATION-ready for the institution. We do not do that with all other students, only with a few. In fact, we have broadened it to some immigration classes of people who do not speak the language, et cetera. But here we do quite an EDUCATION readiness to make they integrate better into a university or a CÉGEP environment.
Does that not involve an additional cost which is not borne by the EDUCATIONal system for other students? Do not get me wrong; I think it is excellent. That is why your statistics have gone up. You never did that before and you should have.
Mr. Coulter: Our university-preparation program is very valuable. It pays for programs in existing post-secondary institutions so that students can meet the academic criteria. It is an add-on program. Those programs exist in most universities for students other than First Nations and Inuit students.
Senator Andreychuk: You are saying that these are not specialized programs for native students or Indian students?
Mr. Coulter: The programs are not necessarily specialized, although some First Nations post-secondary institutions have specialized programs. Red Crow College and the Saskatchewan Indian Federated College have specialized programs which would be more adapted culturally.
Senator Andreychuk: For example, I know one school of social work, the University of Regina, which is helping students adapt to their system. Upon entering university, students are faced with not only moving off reserve but also integrating into a community that is not necessarily accepting of them and their ways. The academic program, itself, can be overwhelming. The university has provided outreach programs to start university classes in the communities where these students are located before the students arrive on campus.
There are costs involved for this. I should like to know what they are because I think it is money well spent. I should like to point that out, rather than saying that it is an exorbitant cost. Have you factored those costs in and shown what a little bit of specialization or adaptation can do for the results? It certainly has been a factor in the native community in Western Canada.
Mr. Coulter: I certainly agree that the results are there. I do not know if we have actually done the detailed analysis. There are some other support programs as well. The federal government does support cultural centres and friendship centres in most communities. Many students, particularly from remote and isolated areas, use those facilities and get much guidance from them.
Senator Andreychuk: There are two areas which I wanted to address. I am a little confused about the sheets which you were showing us. Does it refer to the 10 per cent that you control, or does it refer to the 90 per cent which is now in aboriginal control?
Mr. Coulter: It refers to the whole program combined.
Senator Andreychuk: As you dispense the money to reserves or associations, do you get back sufficient data to analyze where that money goes now?
Mr. Coulter: Yes, we do.
Senator Andreychuk: The Indian Act puts an obligation on the Government of Canada to provide Post-Secondary education to status Indians.
Mr. Coulter: I believe it is elementary and secondary EDUCATION.
Senator Andreychuk: Where do you find your authority for post-secondary EDUCATION and how do you interpret it?
Mr. Coulter: It is a policy authority which comes from the Appropriations Act.
Senator Andreychuk: When was the first appropriation, historically?
Mr. Coulter: The first official appropriation occurred in 1977.
Senator Andreychuk: Prior to that, there would have been no special assistance to status Indians for Post-Secondary education at all?
Mr. Coulter: There was a bit of assistance under adult EDUCATION, but it was not a formalized program. There was no formalized program until 1977. Prior to that there was some support although for a relatively small number of students.
Senator Andreychuk: Would you have statistics from the incorporation of the Indian Act to today, showing how many status Indians have gone through Post-Secondary education? The curve has gone up dramatically in the last 10 years, but do we have anything to chart for the last century?
Mr. Coulter: I am not sure we have it for the last century, but we have some from the mid-1960s.
Mr. Peach: I am not sure we can go back as far as the incorporation of the Indian Act.
Mr. Coulter: That would be looking into the 1800s. We certainly have some numbers that go back 20 or 25 years. I would be happy to provide them to the committee.
Senator Andreychuk: Now that 90 per cent of your budget is controlled by native organizations under the Indian Act, they determine where the money is spent. I suppose that they have an accountability under the Indian Act to report back, but their decisions are their own now. Is that what you are saying?
Mr. Coulter: Yes.
Senator Andreychuk: That means that a native person who wishes to get to Post-Secondary education would have to satisfy guidelines of individual bands or associations?
Mr. Peach: Yes, that is correct. When a First Nations organization assumes management of the program, they have an option either to continue administering the program under the department's guidelines or to establish their own. If they choose to establish their own, then, yes, an applicant would have to satisfy those particular guidelines.
Senator Andreychuk: If a native student wishes to pursue post-secondary EDUCATION, are there some objective criteria he must meet? Is there accessibility for that student, or must he meet a subjective standard by the band council or association?
Mr. Coulter: Most of the band councils or First Nations have written policies which they apply in assessing applications for funding.
Senator Andreychuk: If a student is denied, is there an appeal process?
Mr. Peach: Yes, there is an appeal process. An appeal process must be written into all guidelines. If a student is denied, there is a process for them to appeal.
Senator Andreychuk: There is an objective standard in your opinion?
Mr. Coulter: Yes.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: How many students have appealed in the last 5 or 10 years?
Mr. Coulter: The appeals would go to the First Nations, and they do not report on appeals to us.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: There could be an appeal, but it may not be a practical process.
Senator Andreychuk: Over the years, Canadians have had a great debate about the universality of EDUCATION and whether or not we have universality. We know that there are economic prohibitives involved in going to university. If we have a parallel system, I am also concerned that it adhere to some objective standards by which all students are bound. In other words, a student can be denied if they do not have the marks, if they do not apply themselves, et cetera. But any student, native or non-native, should have the right to apply and go through a process and get some objective evaluation of their abilities.
Mr. Coulter: Our policy provides for that.
Senator Andreychuk: I would be interested in seeing that policy, if I could.
I am impressed with what has been done in the past 10 or 15 years by the Saskatchewan Federated Indian College which is taking ownership and meeting international academic standards, not their own standards.
Our students are becoming more productive in their own communities and for Canada at large. This is, in part, because the curriculum has been expanded to include areas of interest and applicability to them. The Saskatchewan Indian Federated College is in the forefront of that.
Have you done any studies on how basic curricula across Canada have adapted to integrate the agenda of aboriginals? How valid are they at the primary and high school levels also? It seems to me that one of the areas of neglect has been that our curricula do not incorporate the aboriginal community. I am concerned that, in Toronto, for example, there is no understanding of the contribution and the productivity of the aboriginal community. It is not in the curriculum; it is not in their day-to-day life.
I face it every day because of population numbers in Regina. I am worried about the overall welfare of Canada with regard to the aboriginal community, how we coexist and, of course, their well-being and their own ability to succeed.
Mr. Coulter: We have done no detailed studies of aboriginal content in curricula. The development of that curricula is, for the most part, a provincial responsibility.
However, under our Indian Studies Program, we do allow for the adaptation and development of special programs in the First Nation and Inuit post-secondary institutions which I mentioned earlier. Most of them are adaptations for language and culture. We provide about $20 million for that program.
Senator Andreychuk: So you are saying it is a provincial responsibility, certainly at the primary school level?
Mr. Coulter: Yes. There is much more flexibility in the First Nations post-secondary institutions. First Nations which manage and run their own schools have flexibility to adapt their curriculum to include cultural aspects and aboriginal languages, albeit within the overall rubric of meeting provincial curricula standards.
Senator Andreychuk: Does your funding in any way restrict attendance in these specialized curricula, by percentage or otherwise, to aboriginals or status Indians? I know that non-status Indians, non-natives and the Métis community are part of the Saskatchewan Indian Federated College. How does your funding in that program relate? Once you give the funding to the Saskatchewan Indian Federated College, do you care whether the students are status, or can they be any Canadian?
Mr. Coulter: We provide funding to develop the aboriginal content. It is up to the Federated College, under the auspices of the University of Regina, to decide whether to admit non-Indian students. I know that many non-native students attend courses in the Federated College and vice versa.
Senator Andreychuk: I was involved with the Saskatchewan Indian Federated College at its inception. It is very valuable in Western Canada and I know that it attracts students from other places.
Is there another program which is its equal?
Mr. Coulter: There are other First Nations post-secondary institutions in Canada but none with the mass of academic excellence of the Federated College. It is by far the largest aboriginal academic community in Canada. There are now 50 or 55 aboriginal academic personnel, which is a significant number for any institution in Canada.
Senator Andreychuk: Can you give us a list of all post-secondary institutions across Canada which receive funding from you?
Mr. Coulter: Yes. They include the Saskatchewan Indian Institute of Technology and Red Crow College in Alberta.
Senator Andreychuk: There is a specialized program in Alberta as well. I would like a listing of all the programs.
Mr. Coulter: I would be happy to provide the committee with a list of the institutions that get funding from our Indian studies program.
Senator Andreychuk: You used the words "jobs" and "job creation" in your presentation. Has DIAND given any thought to how to support job training, research and development and partnering with the business community to a greater extent than the Saskatchewan Indian Federated College has done on its own?
Mr. Coulter: We have given a fair amount of thought to that. It is certainly a priority for our minister.
We are looking at ways of getting better market-labour outlooks in terms of defining the labour market for First Nations and Inuit students over the next while. We think it is somewhat different than for non-aboriginal Canadians. We want to get some useful tools into the hands of the people who are administering this program and the post-Pathways program at HRD. These should be tools which can help students, First Nations administrators, and universities and community colleges across Canada to define job demands in First Nations communities, in aboriginal business and in the rest of Canada over the next 5 to 10 years. These valuable tools do not now exist in a useable format.
Senator Andreychuk: As you transfer responsibility from DIAND to aboriginal leaders, great emphasis must be put on training administrators and leaders to manage resources and businesses. That transfer must be backed with resources because, if the trend continues, they will be the managers of the future. Aboriginals live in a communal way which is different from our way, so the existing MBA programs and management of natural resources programs do not naturally fit them.
I am pleased to see what the Saskatchewan Federated Indian College is doing in that, but to what extent have you given thought to it and developed the kinds of programs needed?
Mr. Coulter: We are aware that the skill set is shifting. We do not have good predictions on what the demand will be for future employment opportunities. As I mentioned, we are looking to get some of those tools.
Senator Andreychuk: It is in the thinking stage.
Mr. Coulter: I know there is a concern among some Canadian post-secondary institutions as to whether their programs are geared to meet First Nations' needs in the future.
Over the last 15 to 20 years, much of the employment in First Nation communities has been in the area of public administration-type jobs. There are jobs at the band council. There is an assumption of EDUCATIONal programming and health services. All those jobs have gone, in essence, to the band council. Those jobs are relatively well-filled by young First Nations people. There is a great demographic wedge now coming through the EDUCATION system, that is, students who will need to find viable employment. To the extent that that will be with First Nations governments or other governments is an open question. However, we are seeing a dramatic increase in the number of First Nations businesses in Canada.
I do not think anyone yet has a really good handle on the skill set that the next generation of aboriginal businesses will need for their work force. Nor do I think there is a good handle on the needs of large employers near First Nations communities.
There is a great deal of opportunity, particularly in sectors where aboriginal people have not worked, such as the financial services sector. We are seeing a great interest by banks and other financial institutions in moving into First Nations communities and in hiring First Nations employees to provide services locally. I think a challenge, not only for government but for First Nations program administrators, aboriginal business, Canadian business and EDUCATIONal institutions is to ensure that the proper skill sets are there to fill the jobs that will be in place in the next 5 to 10 years.
Senator Andreychuk: Mr. Chairman, I think the most fundamental question we will be facing in terms of the aboriginal community is this: Does post-secondary EDUCATION meet those concerns and the expectations that are already there in the aboriginal community for the kinds of training, EDUCATION and academic support systems that are needed? Those concerns must be met so that those communities can manage the resources that are being transferred to them and so that they can start up the businesses which can be supported by their lands and resources. Most important, how will other Canadians be able to work with them on their reserves? Those are the problems that we are facing in Saskatchewan at the moment. While we are only in the thinking stage, I think we should be in the recommendation stage. I hope our committee will say something about that area.
The Chairman: Thank you for your questions, senator. They show the importance of having regional senators on our committee.
Senator DeWare: Mr. Chairman, are we training for the future, not only in terms of our First Nations peoples but for the rest of Canadian students as well? With regard to the post-secondary student support program, you talked about travel support for students who are away from home. I think you mentioned in your remarks something about that also including a return grant for travel home, as well as for food support, day care and so on. Are we talking here about single parents, families or both?
Mr. Coulter: Yes, both.
Senator DeWare: Do they receive the support they need to be together and to sustain them while they are going to university or whatever?
Mr. Coulter: Yes. The First Nations have the flexibility to provide that support, and most do. They determine the needs of each individual student on a case-by-case basis. They have the program flexibility to provide all of that kind of support which a particular student may find necessary.
Senator DeWare: I am sure there are other students who would like to have that same support.
The statistics which we were asking you to provide are important in order that we can compare the costs for one year at university for a regular student in the system, whether it is $40,000 or $45,000.
If somebody looked at your 26,000 students in 1995 and divided it into $269 million, they may be concerned about whether or not it costs $10,000 per aboriginal student to put them through Post-Secondary education for one year. That is how analyses are done sometimes. Statisticians take the cost of the program and divide it by the number of students in order to come up with a per capita cost.
I know it will be difficult for you to come up with those figures. However, it is important that you show us the basis for the cost analysis, even if you have to break it down into students who are receiving the extra support as compared with other students.
Mr. Coulter: We will certainly provide what we can.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: In terms of First Nations Post-Secondary education students and their difference by gender, why are there so many more female students as compared with male students? Usually, it is the other way around. Is that because the men go hunting and the women go to school?
Mr. Coulter: I do not have a complete answer to your question. Part of the reason is that many First Nations post-secondary students are mature students. As well, there are many single parents who come back into the system through university and college entrance programs who then go into post-secondary EDUCATION.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: Would that account for such a gap?
Senator Andreychuk: Another factor may be the programs in which post-secondary support was offered. Often, it was offered in EDUCATION, social work and certain health services which, traditionally, women followed. That would account for part of the gap.
Perhaps another part of the reason is that single women who have run into trouble while trying to raise their children often looked to support services through friendship associations, et cetera. They received help there to complete their high school training. That then motivates them to go on to further EDUCATION.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: This should be looked at more carefully to see if there is something discouraging young men.
Senator Andreychuk: Look at the drop-out rate. Look at the kinds of jobs that aboriginals were able to obtain. In some cases, they were high-paying labour jobs, something which drove them out of the academic stream. If you look at our prison system, you might see what else is happening to aboriginal males.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: If you have more information, I would appreciate it.
At one point you said that in 1994 there was an extra $20 million put into the system for some 2,800 students. Are my figures right? To what level of EDUCATION did that $20 million apply?
Mr. Coulter: The $20 million was applied as an add-on to the department's Post-Secondary education budget. It enabled approximately 2,800 additional students to attend college and university.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: If I divide that sum by the number of students, I get a figure of $7,142.
Mr. Coulter: That would be about right. The funding goes to full and part-time students.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: Are there differences between the provinces in the way they fulfil their responsibilities in terms of EDUCATION for aboriginals? I am trying to remember what is done in Quebec. I believe the Inuit and the Cree have their own school boards.
Mr. Coulter: Yes, they do.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: They must be deciding their own curriculum, I would imagine. This is not to say who is guilty or not guilty; however, in some places, perhaps improvement is needed in terms of the responsibilities of the various provinces. We do not know unless we have some picture from each province.
We do not need too many details, but, generally speaking, can you tell us if there are marked differences between the various provinces? Can you give us a picture of this?
Mr. Peter Frood, Senior Policy Analyst, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development: Senator, in Quebec, the Catholic school board and the Cree school board exist as a result of the James Bay agreement. There are provisions in the agreement which provide for the establishment and control of the EDUCATION system. In both instances, those are school boards basically operating under the auspices of the provincial government, the provincial régime pédagogique, and so on. At the same time, there are adjustments and variations in the approach which is taken to EDUCATION.
My son started his schooling in the Catholic school board, and his first language of instruction was Inuktitut. There was clearly a strong emphasis on language training in that school board. In Grade 3 and 4, there was a French stream and an English stream, and it became very complicated. However, there was an adaptation, and other things are taking place with the Cree school board. Those are unique arrangements which derive from the agreements themselves.
Other First Nations, just using Quebec as an example, have access to funding for the on-reserve population through the department and departmental programs. There is a mix of circumstances. Some kids go to school on reserve. In other instances, kids are going to school in an adjacent community where there would be a tuition agreement signed for providing the services. It would evolve on that basis.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: Are you satisfied that the arrangement be different from one province to the next? It is a federal responsibility, but are you satisfied that the various provinces fulfil whatever their responsibilities are? Is there a need to collaborate with the federal government to fulfil those responsibilities? Are they weak at some point?
I do not want to put anyone under le banc des accusés, but in order to make recommendations, we should have more precise information. If there are only minor things, we will forget about them, but if there are real discrepancies in the way each one fulfils its responsibilities, I think it would be important for us to know.
Mr. Frood: It would be dangerous ground to try to pass judgment on the EDUCATION system. By and large, I think the arrangements are working. You are talking about federal responsibilities to support schooling. There is a range of reactions on reserve and off reserve. It very much depends on the individual communities, the school boards that are involved, and the provincial régimes which are in place.
I am talking about elementary and secondary EDUCATION. There are about 110,000 students residing on reserve. These are very rough figures. Approximately 55 per cent of them are attending school on reserve, mostly at an elementary school level. The balance are going to provincial schools in one form or another. Overall, the point of reference for curriculum is the provincial curriculum.
One of the important things, as a point of reference which is referred to in the funding arrangements, is the capacity of a student to transfer from one school responsibility to another. In other words, a student going to school on the reserve in Grade 5 should be able to transfer to a Grade 5 school in another area. The quality of EDUCATION should be geared to transferability.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: You feel this is assured in all provinces which have Indian populations?
Mr. Frood: That is certainly identified as being in place for the arrangements that we have. Application will vary considerably.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: We could ask them back, if we wish, when we get to writing the report.
The Chairman: Perhaps when we get down to Quebec City, we can ask the Minister of EDUCATION for the province what he is doing for the Indians.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: I am interested in examining the situation of Indians in all of the country, not only in Quebec or Saskatchewan. For example, we were always told that the Indians in Alberta were not the most well treated in the country. I do not know if it is right or wrong, but that is the picture that we have. Do you not agree?
Senator Andreychuk: I never heard that before.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: They live in poor conditions on their reserves, et cetera. I do not know if it is still true.
Senator Losier-Cool: If I could add to that and to what was said about transfers, it is not only a question of transferring from schools within the province, but a question of transfer across Canada. There is certainly an issue there.
Perhaps one way we can identify discrepancies is to look at national standard testing. I know that Senator Lavoie-Roux does not believe too much in national testing.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: We always do well in Quebec.
Senator Losier-Cool: They have identified provinces, and they have identified differences between the francophones and the anglophones. They probably also have national testing on science or language arts. Even if that is only high school testing, it could give us an idea of how the aboriginals are doing compared to other groups. That could be one way for us to identify some discrepancies, and we could have that information through the Minister of EDUCATION.
The Chairman: Thank you again for your answers. If we find we need more information, would you be prepared to come back and answer more questions later?
Mr. Coulter: Yes, we would.
The Chairman: Thank you, senators, for your participation. The meeting is adjourned.
The committee adjourned.