Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Privileges, Standing
Rules and Orders
Issue 1 - Evidence
OTTAWA, Tuesday, October 21, 1997
The Standing Committee on Privileges, Standing Rules and Orders met this day at 4:00 p.m. to organize the activities of the committee.
[English]
Mr. Gary O'Brien, Principal Clerk, Committees Branch, Clerk of the committee: Honourable senators, I see a quorum. As your clerk, it is my duty to preside over the election of the chairman, which is your first item of business. Are there any nominations for the position of chairman?
Senator Milne: I nominate Senator Maheu.
Mr. O'Brien: It was moved by the Honourable Senator Milne that the Honourable Senator Maheu be elected Chair of the committee. Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Mr. O'Brien: The motion is carried. I invite Senator Maheu to take the Chair.
Senator Shirley Maheu (Chair) in the Chair.
The Chair: Thank you. I am totally new, as all of you know, but I will do my best to ensure that the committee functions the way it should.
We will move to the election of the deputy chair.
Senator Grimard: I move that Senator Robertson be elected Deputy Chair of the committee.
Senator Doyle: I second that.
The Chair: We have a motion that Senator Robertson be named Deputy Chair.
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: In absentia. The motion is carried.
We now need a motion on the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure, which is our steering committee. The motion would recommend:
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be composed of the Chair, the Deputy Chair and one other member of the committee to be designated by the Chairman after the usual consultations and that the quorum be two members; and
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be authorized to meet in camera.
Senator Petten: I so move.
The Chair: It is moved by Senator Petten.
Senator Lewis: This arose earlier this morning. We see the words "after the usual consultations". What does that mean?
The Chair: "Through the usual channels", I think, is what it should mean.
Senator Petten, are you moving that we name someone a member of this committee at this time?
Senator Petten: If that is what the committee wishes, I would be happy to nominate Senator Bosa as the third member.
The Chair: Is the committee in agreement with that? Do members agree?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Congratulations, Senator Bosa.
Now we have a motion to print the committee's proceedings. In the past, they have been ordering 375 copies, so the motion reads:
That the committee print 375 copies of its proceedings.
Senator Kelly: Why is it 375? Why not 374 or 206? How do we arrive at that number?
The Chair: Have we been using 375?
Mr. O'Brien: That is the historical data. The Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration prints about the same amount and has the same kind of distribution. It is in-house printing. We can print as many as we want or as few as we want. That is the minimum.
Senator Kelly: Of the 375, how many have a known destination, and how many are kept in case someone requests them?
Mr. O'Brien: Very few are kept. The 375 is a base number. Most of those are used. They have known destinations.
Senator Kelly: I am not trying to make mischief, but I am trying to point out that we must be careful not to be locked in, just because it is something we have always done. It is important for us, in the interests of economy, to understand that we make a new decision each time and not just do something because we have always done it.
Senator Rossiter: Why not "up to a maximum of 375"?
Senator Bosa: Do these copies not go to the members and to libraries? They are used.
Mr. O'Brien: There is little waste in the 375. That is our historical experience. It may change this session.
Senator Kelly: I just wished to make the general point.
The Chair: Is this the type of document that goes right across the country to all public libraries?
Mr. O'Brien: It goes to depository libraries.
The Chair: Would someone care to move that motion?
Senator Kelly: I so move.
The Chair: Is it agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: The motion is carried.
Motion No. 5 reads:
That the committee ask the Library of Parliament to assign Research Officers to the committee; and
That the Chair, on behalf of the committee, direct the research staff in the preparation of studies, analysis and summaries.
Senator Rossiter: I so move.
The Chair: Is it agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Motion No. 5 is carried.
Item No. 6 on the agenda is Other Matters.
Senator Bosa: Madam Chair, when do we propose to have our meetings?
The Chair: I was hoping we could discuss that under Other Matters. I understand the Senate leadership on both sides have been consulting and have tried to bypass any conflict there may be in two committees meeting at the same time. Perhaps the clerk could advise us where they are now with this tentative schedule.
Senator Petten: If I might, at one point in time we met at lunch time, and it seemed to work well. Perhaps the good doctor could tell us how that has worked in the past.
Mr. O'Brien: As the Chair mentioned, the leadership has tried to minimize conflicts for senators who serve on more than one committee. As Senator Petten noted, for many years we sat on Thursday at 11:00 a.m. and we often brought in sandwiches to facilitate the meeting. This session, because of the numerous conflicts, there was a change for a number of committees, and this committee has now been moved to try out Tuesdays when the Senate rises, which is the time we are now meeting. It has the minimal amount of conflict with other committees.
Senator Kelly: That is an excellent idea. However, if we get into a business of agreeing to have a lunch meeting, I like what we did before when we met at 11:00 a.m. and then had lunch if necessary. When you have a meeting that starts with lunch, I assure you that what happens is people come for lunch. Sometimes you have a meeting; sometimes you do not. That is not the best. Tuesday is usually a very long day.
The Chair: I was about to ask that question. If we rise at six o'clock, do we need a snack to get us through?
Senator Grimard: We have regional caucus on our side at six o'clock every Tuesday.
Senator Bosa: I suppose, Madam Chair, no matter what period of the day you pick, it will always be in conflict with someone. For instance, Senator Corbin is now in Foreign Affairs because Foreign Affairs has been meeting regularly after the Senate rises or at four o'clock in the afternoon on Tuesdays.
Mr. O'Brien: There are some conflicts. It is difficult to take them all out.
The Chair: I am open to suggestions, but not Monday morning.
Senator Lewis: What is the conflict with Thursday morning?
Mr. O'Brien: Internal Economy meets on Thursday mornings. We did quite a bit of analysis with the Deputy Leader's office, and it is not a perfect system, but this did minimize the conflicts. Perhaps some thought could be given to getting permission to sit at a certain time on Tuesday to know that we can finish by six o'clock, perhaps starting at 4:30 p.m.
Senator Rossiter: Especially if you are having witnesses. It would be more meaningful than having them sit around.
Senator Kelly: This is not a committee that involves many witnesses, but we can try it.
Senator Bosa: Why not try it on Tuesday afternoon? We can continue until we come to a point where it is too inconvenient, and then perhaps we will find another spot.
Madam Chair, we have 16 members. Is that not larger than usual?
The Chair: We have fourteen. We have the two positions, if needed, for the leadership.
Senator Bosa: Committees are made up of 12 members.
Mr. O'Brien: That is true with the exception of Internal Economy and Rules, which have 15 each. As was noted at the Senate Committee of Selection, the Conservatives did not name their full allotment. I am not sure of the reason, but there was one short. Senator Kinsella and Senator DeWare are aware of that, and the vacancy can be filled at any time.
The Chair: Perhaps we can handle it under some other suggestions I will be recommending.
Will we stay where we are until such time as we find it is not working?
Senator Bosa: Can you give us an idea of which way you will be taking us in this committee?
The Chair: I wanted to cover that under the next item on the agenda.
I would suggest to the committee that the steering committee could meet before our next meeting to come up with a list of possible subjects which we could study, and they could make a report to the full account. Some possible items include proposed rules for joint committees, something that Senator Gauthier and Peter Milliken were looking at; senators' attendance -- I walked in today and said, "Present, sir". That does not happen anywhere else, and I wonder if we could not look at that here; restructuring of Senate committees and establishing a fixed schedule, again to see if we cannot get around the conflicts. I understand the Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration has already made some proposals on this subject. We could perhaps also look at forming a subcommittee to do a general clean-up of the rules, to review them, to see what could or should be changed, and give them a mandate to comment back to the full committee. The last item, but certainly not the least, is whether independent members should be part of committees. There has been a great deal of discussion about that, and I understand it has been going on for a while.
Senator Kelly: As was stated in the chamber, generally it is the job of the government side to look after the independents.
The Chair: Does that go to the extent of giving up a chair?
Senator Kelly: I feel that independents should be on the committees, probably of their choice. We have some very good resources. I do not know how active Michael Pitfield is, but he is very good. I do not know how other people feel, but we keep talking about it and not doing anything. We should do something.
Senator Rossiter: No member, independent or otherwise, is prevented from coming to any committee.
The Chair: I realize that.
Senator Petten: If they show an interest, we can look at it from both sides.
The Chair: They want to be full-fledged members, or some of them do.
Senator Bosa: The make-up of the committees now is so close between the government representatives and the opposition members that if you remove one person --
Senator Rossiter: The balance of power changes.
Senator Grimard: It would be interesting for everyone to have a copy of the remarks made by Mr. Robertson. He prepared a list of the pros and cons. We can make up our minds.
The Chair: Could I ask you to give the steering committee the option of starting to look into these issues?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Senator Bosa: Will you resuscitate some of the material that has been --
The Chair: Why not, if it is good?
Senator Lewis: As it happens, we have three independents now. Suppose that was to increase to quite a number. You cannot deal with them as a party.
Senator Doyle: Are you promising?
Senator Lewis: No, I am thinking of perhaps one of your people. You will not be able to accommodate them all.
The Chair: I would assume it might be in the pros and cons of the issue.
Thank you for your permission to go ahead with that.
The committee adjourned.