Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Fisheries and Oceans
Issue 18 - Evidence
OTTAWA, Tuesday, November 4, 2003
The Standing Senate Committee on Fisheries and Oceans met this day at 7 p.m. to examine and report upon the matters relating to quota allocations and benefits to Nunavut and Nunavik fishermen.
Senator Gerald J. Comeau (Chairman) in the Chair.
[English]
[Editor's Note: Some evidence was presented through an Inuktitut interpreter.]
The Chairman: Tonight we are continuing with our examination on matters relating to quotas allocation and Nunavut fishermen.
We have as witnesses tonight from the Baffin Fisheries Coalition, BFC, Manasie Audlakik, and Gerry Ward who is the Chief Executive Officer of the coalition.
Mr. Audlakik lives in Clyde River where he works for the municipality of Clyde River as a heavy equipment operator. He was elected chairperson of the BFC in 2002. He was the vice-president from May 2001. He represents the Clyde River Hunters and Trappers Association on the board of the BFC. He attended a school in Churchill, Manitoba.
We look forward to your presentation. I understand you have some opening comments following which we will ask members to go on to questions. Mr. Audlakik is doing the introduction. The floor is yours, sir.
[Interpretation]
Mr. Manasie Audlakik, Chairman, Baffin Fisheries Coalition: With me today is Gerry Ward, our chief executive officer. Mr. Ward has held senior management positions in both Canada and in the United States. He has also has experience as assistant deputy minister. I would like to thank you for this opportunity to represent the Baffin Fisheries Coalition.
I will ask you to direct the questions to Mr. Ward because I have not held the chair of the BFC for very long.
The Baffin Fisheries Coalition was formed in 2000 to look at the turbot allocation announced by the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans that year. This is a priority among the community members of our coalition. In particular, we are concerned about division 0A and division 0B.
Mr. Chairman, I have been disturbed by some of the statements made in this committee regarding turbot and the Baffin Fisheries Coalition. I would like to announce that the statements made were not true.
[English]
Mr. Gerry Ward, Chief Executive Officer, Baffin Fisheries Coalition: If I may, what the chairman is saying we have had the pleasure of reading the transcript of course from former proceedings here. On a number of occasions by witnesses and Senators, the statement was made that BFC has a monopoly in the turbot fishery. Mr. Chairman wishes to state that is misleading, because BFC is a coalition of 11 Inuit-owned organizations throughout Baffin Island and that is the statement he wishes to clarify.
Senator Watt: Can you clarify whether that came from the Senate or from witnesses?
Mr. Ward: It came from both, senator.
Senator Watt: From both.
[Interpretation]
Mr. Audlakik: Thank you for clarifying that for me. I will be making honest and straightforward statements. As a tax-paying Canadian we would like to be regarded the same as the rest of Canada. Mr. Ward will be helping me throughout the evening.
As Mr. Ward said, the agreement is among the 11 communities.
[English]
Mr. Ward: I should like to make a point of clarification here. With regard to coalition itself, the revenues specifically from the 0A exploratory turbot allocations will be reinvested for are a specific period into fisheries development issues throughout Nunavut.
[Interpretation]
Mr. Audlakik: As the Baffin Fisheries Coalition is working at this exploratory offshore and inshore fishing; they are also working on fishing near to the communities. We would like to give more training as we look into retaining vessels. The unemployment rate in Nunavut is high — especially for those who do not speak English. Frequently, it seems that they are not regarded. It is not so even those of us who speak very little English have skills as those who are provided training. However, when people do not speak English, they are just pushed aside. They try to gain things and they are not even seen. Sometimes they are seen but not regarded. I would like to state this and I would like to say I want to stand up for these people. These people can have jobs like we do, can provide for their children, pay for their houses. They are not happy to be on welfare. The help that the government gives out, it does help for a month, especially for bigger families. Today, specifically in Broughton Island, they cannot sell carvings or skins.
I would like to be heard in saying that the people that do not speak English are put aside and it hurts me. They feel as we do, as you do, as I do. I would like to be clearly understood on this part. We have worked very hard on this to ensure that the fisheries succeed. I may look angry as I am speaking but I would like you to know that I am not. It is just the way I am speaking. It is just the way I am. I am not angry.
I have worked very hard on this matter. We need help in getting a vessel for the people. I worked very hard for the unilingual Nunavut who do not speak English. Those who do not speak English have difficulties in applying for anything. Sometimes, if they do not speak English, the application is thrown away. As I said, I will stand up for these people. I would like to see why things are that way. You may understand this; I will state this again as I always do when I give speeches.
We are working to gain a vessel for the Baffin area. We know these vessels are extremely expensive and we can only realize our goal by getting the funding. As I have said, people that do work in these vessels now are just workmen in these ships. They are not in any position as captains or any management position; they are only labourers.
We are working to get training so that we can have Inuit in positions as captains and in the management areas. We know that this is not possible immediately but we do know that with proper training that it can be achieved.
We are always talking about quota when we need to be talking about tonnage. We would like to have the quota raised. As I have said, we are Canadians paying our taxes. We need to be seen as other Canadians and we follow the same rules as other Canadians. If we break these laws, we too are brought to justice. We would like to have the same amount of quota as given to others, not just a fraction.
We want to develop new fisheries and it is only through funding that we can achieve this. The people work very hard in this matter.
[English]
Mr. Ward: I think at this point it is important that we take a couple minutes to explain to the committee specifically what has been the accomplishment of the Baffin Island Coalition.
The Chairman: We received a full copy of the presentation as proposed for this evening. All the members would have read the full presentation as such. I should to assure you that we are familiar with the issues. However, we would like to move on to questions and answers.
[Interpretation]
Mr. Audlakik: I would like to say that we want to make things clear, and I would like him to speak, if it is possible, please.
[English]
Mr. Ward: Mr. Chairman, we will not take too long. I would like to summarize the document as you have all had the opportunity to read it.
It is pretty important at this stage to make certain statements in regard to the coalition. In less than three years, we have proven, without a doubt, that we can catch fish. We went from 2,600 metric tons in 2001 to 3,600 metric tons in 2002 and this year we will catch our full 4,000 metric tons. In doing that we have gathered a tremendous knowledge on how to move forward in this fishery.
We have diversified our product mix. The key issue, specifically when you enter into a new fishery — and we are faced with the reality that we operate within a northern environment — is that there are only certain types of vessels you can use to fish in that area.
We began with a public tendering process. We had the majority of foreign vessels in year one. We increased the number of Canadian vessels in year two. This year we will harvest about 75 per cent of the allocation with Canadian vessels. In 2004, the fishery will be Canadianized. It is in the best interest of all of us to do that. That has been our objective and we have achieved that. That is a very important item.
With regard to the revenues coming from the royalties within the coalition, the board has decided that 30 per cent would be invested to a vessel account towards purchasing a large factory freezer vessel. About 20 per cent will be invested in exploratory fisheries because the reality today is with cuts in DFO budgets in research and development. If we do not put the money in private sector, in conjunction with the Wildlife Management Board and the Department of Sustainable Development, it will not happen.
We have also contributed greatly to the development of inshore fisheries and more fish going to the groundfish processing plant in Pangnirtung, Nunavut. We have been successful as a result of the coalition of obtaining more allocations. We have received a shrimp allocation in shrimp fishing area, SFA, 1 of 1,000 metric tons and 2,500 metric tons in Nunavut settlement area within SFA 2 and 3. We got that because we applied for it. No one had done it before. We applied and received it.
I must say that the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, DFO, has been very supportive and we wish to thank them for what we have accomplished so far.
However, we do have some serious issues. In respect of training, in 2003 we were successful in carrying out two training course in Iqaluit for a total of 24 Inuit workers. Twenty of these people have graduated and they are pleased to be working on factory vessels.
We approved more than $200,000 in exploratory fisheries, as an example, to do work in the Cumberland Sound area. We are doing char work in the Qikiqtarjuag area and the list goes on and on. We did two major projects, ones in Clyde River, one in Pond Inlet, to look at developing a turbot fishery in the winter months in those areas with very great support. By putting in $200,000 from our funding we were able to leverage up to $1 million to do the type of work that needs to be done in a northern environment.
Of course, the coalition has made major contribution towards increasing the production in the Pangnirtung plant. We have completed an operation plan. We all want to develop a fishery. We have adopted an approach and developed a very detailed business plan for a company overall and development of offshore and specifically with regards to a fishing vessel specifically.
[Interpretation]
Mr. Audlakik: I would like to apologize but where I need to be clear, I will ask Mr. Ward to step in for me.
The Nunavummiut have not been given a fair share. We seem to be seen as on the side. I do not know why. As I said, we are also Canadian; we also pay taxes. We follow Canadian laws. This is something that I am working hard on and I will continue to reinforce as people from Nunavut we are not treated fairly.
As someone from Nunavut, I would like to be treated the same as other Canadians. As a young person, I noticed my parents afraid. The government may not have been trying to instil fear in them, but I will not do things as my father did. Other people told my father and others what to do all the time and they were afraid to stand up.
The cost of living in Nunavut is extremely high. It is not cheap. People from Nunavut we would like to see fairness in a time very soon, even tomorrow.
Please feel free to stop me if I am not making sense.
[English]
The Chairman: I really do not wish to stop you, but the time is passing. The Senate will be sitting this evening so we do want to be able to get back into the Senate not too late. It might be useful, given that we have gone over the briefings that were sent to us, if we were to go into the question and answer session.
I think a two-way dialogue is always more fruitful and beneficial. Would you be agreeable to go in to questions and answers now?
Mr. Ward: If I may make one statement.
The Chairman: Sure.
Mr. Ward: I want to make some clarifications here and specifically which relates to this map, very simple. 0A specifically of course, 100 per cent of the turbot in 0A goes to Nunavut. We thank DFO and every one involved for that. Down in 0B, it is a smaller area, there are 5,500 metric tons of turbot for Canada in this area; specifically, Nunavut gets 27 per cent.
The next issue is shrimp. In particular, shrimp fishing areas 01, 2, 3, and 4, Nunavut receives 26 per cent of the allocation within its adjacent waters. Let me make a very simple analogy. What an uproar we would have if tomorrow 73 per cent of all Newfoundland crab went to PEI. What a situation we would have if 44 per cent of PEI lobster went to New Brunswick.
We are not asking to be treated differently. All we ask is that we be treated fairly. We are not asking to take back anything that is here. We are saying that something has to be done about the increases. This is not fair. We cannot change the past, but we want to work together and make sure we receive the majority of the allocations increases that occur in these areas.
As a result of the situation that occurred this year in northern shrimp fishery, Nunavut received 51 per cent. Many who would argue that 51 per cent is a majority, I guess it is a basic majority. However, in the same northern shrimp management plan, in shrimp fishing area 7 down south, 90 per cent went to the adjacent territory, in this case, Newfoundland. In the same announcement and Nunavut only received 51 per cent. Where is the fairness and equity? We want nothing more, nothing less. Treat us fairly.
The Chairman: Thank you. We will start off our questions.
[Interpretation]
Senator Adams: I am not quite sure of the statement you made first. We are a hearing committee here and we listen to various concerns that witnesses express. In respect of statements that were made about the BFC, to which statements are you referring and who made them?
Mr. Audlakik: I have not been the chair for the coalition for very long. We heard this back in our communities. I did not hear it myself and I have not been the chair for very long.
Senator Adams: I was seeking clarification. Statements are being written down here.
The BFC began in Nunavut. Who initiated this coalition to look at fisheries in the Baffin area?
Mr. Audlakik: We had been trying to get this started for a very long time in Baffin. We did not have the administration or the funding. It was only in 2000, when the Government of Canada helped us to get started and begin our work.
We have had many meetings about this but we were unable to get started until we found the funding and organized the administration. It has been more than one year since we formed and in that time, we have had many meetings.
Senator Adams: With regards to the funding, when the coalition began how did you become an organization or was this just a body of members, or is the Baffin Fisheries Coalition a company?
Mr. Audlakik: May I please have Mr. Ward answer this question for me?
[English]
Mr. Ward: Yes. When the coalition came into being there were 11 Inuit organizations in Baffin Island. The Baffin Fisheries Coalition is self-supporting. Before the coalition was formed, many of the HTOs and the other companies, spent their own dollars to attend these meetings until it was set up.
To be quite honest a fair amount of support came from the Qikiqtaaluk Corporation and funded it and then we repaid them from the royalties received for the fishery. That is where the money came from to set up. Since that day it has been self-supporting.
[Interpretation]
Senator Adams: You mentioned your interest in obtaining a vessel and for Inuit in the Baffin area have their own small vessels to fish. Do the monies that you receive from the royalties go toward the Inuit or back to the coalition? What do you do with the monies that you receive?
If you obtain your own vessel, the monies that you receive from the royalties seem to be given back to the people. We see that people that are not able to get the funding to obtain their own vessels, when the coalition is receiving royalties. I am wondering if there is a way of working this out.
Mr. Audlakik: I will ask Mr. Ward to answer this question.
[English]
Mr. Ward: There was a memorandum of understanding signed by all 11 member organizations. That memorandum of understanding stated very clearly that for the first three years of operation the returns from the Baffin Fisheries Coalition would be reinvested back into the industry based on the BFC objectives that you see before you. We have done considerable work on exploratory fisheries. We have put considerable dollars into the fish processing plant with extra quotas into Pangnirtung itself; we have carried out training programs and as part of the objective we set aside 30 per cent of the overall royalties, so that we would have a kitty and an equity when the time came to invest in a vessel.
We wish to report that we have our equity positioned to go into a vessel. The board itself can decide on an annual basis as to who allocates these funds and they have done that for three years consecutive. Now they have to decide where to go from here.
We have put considerable time and effort into looking at a Nunavut vessel. Let us put aside whether it goes to the BFC. I do not particularly care. The issue is Nunavut needs a fishing vessel. We have 39,000 metric tons of fish allocated in Nunavut waters and 16 000 metric tons of that — 34 per cent — goes to Nunavut interests. That is all. However, on 16,000 tons there is more than ample room and space to buy a vessel and two.
There will be more than one vessel in Nunavut within three to five years and it will not all be with BFC. Let private enterprise take over. BFC is a coalition. Its job is to grow the offshore fishery. It is doing that through the initiatives that you see in front of you. We would like nothing more than to see support of and investments in smaller vessels for the inshore. However, the reality is that today there is no infrastructure in Nunavut. That is a disaster when you think of it. There is not one fishing vessel in Nunavut, not one marine centre, not one docking facility.
Before you get involved in small vessels, you have to have the infrastructure to support such an expansion. Due to resources from Baffin Fisheries Coalition and others, these funds would be channelled back into fisheries development within Nunavut, period.
Senator Adams: We had DFO here about a week ago and he mentioned about 8 quotas, and was saying here 100 per cent owned at 0A, the quotas 4,000 metric tons for the reward to the coalition from last year.
He said he did not have any control over policy. He also asked if you guys collecting royalties for that 4,000 metric tons. Some of these quotas are not good for Nunavut. How do these things work?
Mr. Ward: All 4,000 metric tons of turbot allocation in the geographic area 0A go to Nunavut specifically. In the memorandum of the understanding, all parties agreed to build critical mass. A second-hand vessel will cost about $15 million to $20 million. A new vessel will cost $25 million to $35 million. You cannot support and invest and keep the infrastructure in place with 50 metric tons or 1,000 metric tons of allocation. You have to have the critical mass.
It all goes to Nunavut interests, yes. There is no question. There are no vessels in Nunavut to fish in. We have now about 75 per cent Canadian caught this year, going to all vessels next year. The minister has made that statement and in principle, we support that. Let me remind everyone, it is taken us just three years to Canadianize a fishery in 0A when it took more than a generation to Canadianize the fishery in 0B further south. I think we moved rather quickly on that issue.
I do not know if you are saying it did not go to Nunavut; it all went to Nunavut and the royalties are coming back 100 per cent to the benefit of people in Nunavut through the objectives we outlined just a couple minutes ago.
Senator Adams: I have a letter dated October 29 from our mayor. He is asking that for next year, about 1,000 metric tons from 0A to develop that and the fishery and some of the community. Why did it not go to you?
Mr. Ward: With regard to vessel acquisition in these communities, we have a letter of support signed by the chairman of our hunters and trappers organization, HTO, specifically stating his support 100 per cent the movement of the Baffin Fisheries Coalition to acquire a vessel.
The banks would not loan you the money without security of having an allocation over X number of years while you are paying out the vessel. I think everyone within Nunavut — the HTOs, and the private sector — realizes that you have to build a critical mass to invest in such a venture.
There is no question that in the future there will be substantial development on the inshore fishery in Nunavut. However, you have to put the infrastructure in place first and build your business. As a coalition, we would like nothing more, than to see the development of the inshore and see more local fishermen be involved in the fishery. However, we have to put the training programs and the infrastructure in place and when that is done, you will build the wharves and they shall come and that will happen.
[Interpretation]
Senator Watt: You talked about the Inuit, their low employment rate, and the fact that when there is income available they are not hired because they do not speak English. It may be true in all of the communities in each region. This is a difficult reality and many Inuit survive through hunting — especially the unilingual Inuit who provide for their families and children through hunting. This was the thrust of your presentation; that Inuit are not being treated fairly when they need employment as a means of survival, other than welfare.
When you look at the statements just given by Mr. Ward that the 30 per cent that can be used to obtain a vessel, it would be $1.5 million for three years. There is 20 per cent allotted for experimental fishing and another 20 per cent to the Pangnirtung plant. Altogether, that is about $1 million.
Yet, you speak of not having the infrastructure in your communities. There are no fishing plants; there is no infrastructure for fisheries. Why is the money not going to infrastructure in Nunavut? That is my first question. I will have other questions.
[English]
Mr. Ward: The board unanimously agreed where the royalties would go and the royalties went into the objectives we talked about — specifically to build up a fund to go back into the communities.
The Baffin Fisheries Coalition is not-for-profit organization; it is really a sector champion. We have to get the infrastructure in place. By looking at a large fishing vessel — the first one and there shall be more — then the royalties from that the objective is clear, to invest back into the communities. Some other communities may wish to start a new plant and that is something that has to be discussed.
The reality is that one of the major objectives of the coalition was to set aside 30 per cent into a vessel acquisition fund. We are pleased to report that we have substantial dollars into our vessel investment fund to look towards buying an Inuit vessel.
After 20 years of the fishery in Nunavut, there are oak vessels in place; there is only token employment; and there are many vessels. In a period of a year, 13 factory vessels fish in Nunavut waters. Each vessel holds 25 to 30 people on board and if we can get two to three to four people on board today we are doing well. That is not acceptable. Only from the point of view, when you control your own vessel and destiny, you are the majority shareholder, only then will you force the employment issue and you will train your people accordingly.
The bottom line is that the board can decide any time how they spend their money. Their objectives in first three years were clearly identified: 30 per cent to vessel acquisition, 20 per cent into exploratory fisheries to develop the fishery in areas such a Clyde River or Pond Inlet where unemployment is very high.
It is a logical step at some point to look at more onshore facilities. There is only plant in the huge coastline of Nunavut on the inshore today. The role of the BFC is to put in the infrastructure and use some of those revenues and royalties to go back into vessel acquisition, onshore plant development and so on.
[Interpretation]
Senator Watt: You mention finding more employment for the Inuit and the fact that they tend to be ignored. How many Inuit work in the coalition?
Mr. Audlakik: We trained 24 Inuit last year. There are more people who would like to obtain training. Many who would like training are not included because they do not speak English. We would have many more people in training if they were able to speak English.
Senator Watt: When you obtain the quotas given by DFO, do you sell them to the non-Inuit southern vessels?
[English]
Mr. Ward: DFO issues the quota or the allocation. In Nunavut, it is routed through the Nunavut Wildlife Management Board, NWMB, which in turn distributes the allocation. Three years ago under the memorandum of understanding, we had a Nunavut fisheries working group that included Nunavut Tunngavik Incorporated, the Department of Sustainable Development, and the NWMB. In conjunction with the 11 members we decided to pool our resources and allocate some funds in the first three years to develop some infrastructure and build up some funds for buying the vessels and/or training dollars. They decided to put all the resources into company, which is what they did.
They agreed then that all of the allocation in 0A would go to the Baffin Fisheries Coalition. As to what happens in the future, that depends. Now it goes to the NWMB. As a point of clarification, we are allocated the full 4,000 metric tons. Then, through a public tendering process, we have advertised in the various papers in Atlantic Canada and elsewhere that we are looking for Canadian vessels to fish. Only when there were not enough Canadian vessels available did we receive permission from DFO to use foreign boats.
[Interpretation]
Senator Watt: When you sell the allocated quotas to southern fishing companies, they will come and fish in your oceans. Is there a memorandum of understanding or an agreement with these vessels that Inuit will be employed on these fishing vessels?
[English]
Mr. Ward: Yes.
Senator Watt: Could you explain that?
Mr. Ward: The number of Inuit crew on these vessels depends on the individual contract. However, we do have a contract with every vessel — whether there are two or three or four Inuit employed on each vessel. We had to negotiate very hard with them to get two, three or four Inuit on board these vessels and we have done that. Today, as an example, we have five vessels fishing in 0A for turbot and one vessel fishing exclusively for us, for shrimp in shrimp fishing area one. Today on these vessels, we have got close to 20 people on there.
I might add that of the two courses that we ran this year, 20 out of the 24 registered graduated. All of those who wanted to go on these boats were placed on these boats and are doing very well. The captain regards them highly, they are doing very well in the work but we have a long way to go in regards to training our people as to what is required with going on a vessel.
You are familiar with the Makivik Corporation. I think they have done an admirable job in training their people to go on vessels. Today they have more than 50 per cent, their own people.
Senator Watt: Which one are you talking about?
Mr. Ward: Makivik specifically.
Senator Watt: I designed that one.
Mr. Ward: I think that they have done a very good job in their training.
I am saying is that our objective is very clear for the vessel. You have to realize there is a learning curve. We are saying we want 25 per cent in year one, 40 per cent in year two and 50 per cent in year three. We will settle for nothing less than a majority of the crew members on this vessel being from Nunavut, period.
That will never happen unless you control your own destiny and have your own vessels. We are not going to sit by, to have the tail wagging the dog. From now on, the dog is going to wag the tail.
Senator Watt: Did I understand correctly that in instances where matters are directly under your control in respect of some of these private companies, you have a certain percentage of people working on the trawlers as fishermen?
Mr. Ward: That is correct.
Senator Watt: Are you saying you do not have the information in regard to the other vessel that are buying those licences? You do not know whether they have Inuit crews? I am asking about the private vessels that are not under your control — the ones who are receiving the permit from the HTOs.
Mr. Ward: I cannot really comment on that. However, I can assure you there is not a lot because the majority of allocations of hunters and trappers would be 50 or 200 or 300 metric tons. If a vessel catches 67,000 metric tons a year, how much leverage do you have to force them? Quite often, you have to beg them to fish your product.
We have an oversupply of montagui shrimp — Pandalus boreali. The market is not growing; it is saturated. With the increases that we saw this year, a fair amount of shrimp is left in the water. We are saying that if you are going out for 100 metric tons, you have to beg these people to catch the fish for you and you do not get a maximum return.
We have a critical mass now. We have 4,000 metric tons of turbot and 3,500 metric tons of shrimp. We are in a position to negotiate. We can say, "you want to do this for us, you will do the following and put the following people on your vessels." That is the approach we have taken and I think we are all relatively pleased with the success we have had in just two years in doing that.
The Chairman: I will soon have to suspend for a few minutes. We will have to seek permission from our colleagues in the chamber to extend our committee meeting for a little while. The clerk will be going up in a couple minutes to find out if we have permission for an extension. At eight o'clock, we may not have to adjourn, however, we have to suspend for a few minutes.
Senator Cochrane: I should like to follow up on Senator Watt's questions regarding the 24 Inuit who were trained last year. You said all of those who wanted to go on vessels could go now. How many of them went on the vessels?
Mr. Ward: About 15 or 16 out of the 20 graduates went on the vessels. There are good reasons why the rest did not: some had medical reasons. In some cases, the reality was that a number of them prefer to stay with their families on the land and go fishing in October and November.
We hired a full-time liaison officer for the communities to relay back and forth the jobs we advertise on the radio and papers. All of those who wanted to fish as a result of doing the course have been placed on vessels, so we are building up a very good pool of workers.
Senator Cochrane: In terms of royalties from the fishery, how much does the BFC collect annually?
Mr. Ward: That depends upon how much we harvest. We have a combination of methods to determine what we take in based on dollars per metric ton and percentage of catch. For example, this year we will collect between $1.75 and $2 million in royalties. Collectively, the gross revenue we have generated since 2001 would be more than $4 million in total.
Senator Cochrane: Therefore you collect approximately $2 million every year?
Mr. Ward: The first year we harvested 2,600 metric tons; the second year we harvested 3,600 metric tons. We are getting better. We are fishing farther north. We are getting bigger fish. We know where to fish; we know the depths of the water. This year we will harvest about 4,400 metric tons, so it depends on the amount that we catch. It is safe to say, based on those allocations, we would generate in the area of $1.75 to $2 million annually.
Senator Cochrane: How many people are employed by the BFC and what is their total annual expenditure on salaries?
Mr. Ward: We are set up as a coalition. There are only two employees within BFC today. As the CEO, I am responsible for the implementation of the business plan, and organizing and growing the business. The head office is in Iqaluit. We have hired a very capable young Inuit person who speaks both languages very well as the liaison officer in Nunavut. In time, this person will certainly be taking a more significant role within the organization and is doing a great job.
We wanted to keep the expenses low at the start for a number of reasons: to invest back in training and exploratory fisheries, and to develop a vessel investment fund. We have accomplished every objective that we had. This is the business plan that we developed in 2002. This is a major business plan and it clearly outlines where BFC wishes to go in development fishery.
The Chairman: I am going to temporarily suspend until we determine whether we have permission to sit longer.
Mr. Ward: We have a story to tell. We would really appreciate a few more minutes.
The Chairman: Apologies for the temporary suspension. We will go back now to Senator Cochrane.
Senator Cochrane: My first question was not answered so I would like to continue. You said there are just two people employed. I wanted to know what the total annual expenditure on salary was.
Mr. Ward: This is a private business. I am not prepared to divulge the salaries of this company without authorization from my board. That is a fair comment to make.
I am prepared to clarify some things for you. With respect to the daily operations of BFC, I act as CEO for implementation of the business plan, growing the business, looking at vessel acquisition. We have hired a liaison officer to deal with the towns. In addition to the two direct in the office, we employ a substantial number on board the fishing vessels. We do not employ them directly because they are paid by the vessels themselves, but we have placed quite a number of Inuit crew on board these vessels.
As to what the salary would be from these, I do not know. It depends on the individual vessel. What I can tell you, they are making a fairly good living and it varies vessel to vessel.
Senator Cochrane: I am talking about the BFC. You say there are only two people: yourself and another Inuit employed. Therefore, you are doing everything. Do you not subcontract out some of the jobs?
Mr. Ward: No, BFC I would think has hired by capable people to do the job for them.
Senator Cochrane: Just two?
Mr. Ward: We do not need to build a bureaucracy to run the BFC. We are putting together contracts with other vessels.
Once we have acquired a vessel, then the employment level of BFC will be substantially higher. We will need an accountant, an officer manager and a secretary. All of a sudden, we will have five or six employees. I do not need a secretary when I am quite capable of typing my own letters and sending my own e-mails and faxes. I can operate today in Russia as well as in Nunavut to operate this business with my laptop and my cell phone.
The original objective was to build a business on sound financial ground and then create the infrastructure to grow the business. You have to buy the vessels and then put management in place and office staff. That is where we are. We are very close to that. We are not going to hire people for the sake of firing them. They have to be productive and the board has made it very clear: if the job can be done with existing employees, then do it.
Senator Cochrane: You say probably within a couple of years you will be expanding to include more employees?
Mr. Ward: That will happen a lot faster. It is no secret we are seriously out looking at the acquisition of a large factory vessel for next year. We have no choice.
Senator Cochrane: By next year you will probably have to increase your staff.
Mr. Ward: There will be more involved in that sector of the business. That is correct.
Senator Cochrane: You mentioned something about advertising. You advertise in Atlantic Canada. Could you tell me more about this advertising?
Mr. Ward: We are completely up front so that everyone can see what is happening. For three years in a row, we went through a process where we advertised, for instance, in The Navigator, a fishing newspaper read throughout Atlantic Canada. We also advertised in The Evening Telegram in St. John's. Our ads state that we are accepting proposals for fishing of 0A quota for Canadian vessels and if anyone is interested to apply. We also make the terms and conditions clear.
We select the vessels from those who respond. We narrow the list down to the ones who can give us the best return for our company.
Senator Cochrane: You placed advertising for vessels to come in.
Mr. Ward: That is correct, harvesting vessels.
Senator Cochrane: Where else do you advertise besides Atlantic Canada?
Mr. Ward: We did not advertise anywhere else for several reasons. Certainly with regards to coalition itself, they knew what we were doing. If they had interest at the HTOs, they would have done it. The reality is there are no vessels in Nunavut to fish specifically in Nunavut waters so we had no choice to go to Atlantic Canada. No, we did not advertise in B.C. or anywhere like that because it simply was not practical.
Senator Cochrane: Do you not think it would have been practical to advertise as well in like the Nunavut area?
Mr. Ward: You are absolutely right on that issue. However, I have to make the statement again: We have all of those that were historically and currently involved in the offshore fishery in Nunavut are voting members of Baffin Island Coalition. That was decided as a board. The fact is, if we advertised in Nunavut, what could Nunavut do?
It does not make sense for us to reallocate resources or allocation of quotas to another Nunavut interest when we are out trying to do the same thing. There are only so many dollars.
Senator Cochrane: My worry is in regard to the people about whom Mr. Audlakik is concerned: The people who do not know how to read and write and cannot speak English, I would like for them to get a fair deal and be able to participate in whatever is happening within their area.
Mr. Ward: That is exactly what we are trying to do. That is why the coalition was set up. No one was more concerned than the chairman and I about the issue of providing the maximum employment to Inuit specific and in the communities.
I tell my board members that they are elected by their HTOs or their communities to sit on this board and that they have a responsibility to take information about the jobs back to their communities. As a matter of fact, we made a community tour last January and did just that.
Senator Cochrane: Are all the people happy with their representatives on the BFC?
Mr. Ward: We cannot answer that. That is an issue that has to be addressed by each HTO. We deal through a board. I take my policy direction from the board.
Senator Cochrane: This gentleman has said that he has heard discussions that his community is disgruntled. Are they disgruntled with the BFC? What are they disgruntled about?
Mr. Ward: This is the misconception. They are disgruntled that there is not enough employment. They are not disgruntled with BFC specifically. They are saying, we have a resource in our waters, why are there not more Inuit on these vessels? One of the major reasons the BFC was set up was to provide training so the people in Clyde River, Pond Inlet, Qikiqtarjuaq, and all those areas could have an equal opportunity to go on these vessels.
Senator Cochrane: I would like to see the BFC interested in education of these people — getting them to learn English so that they can compete in this global world and economy. I would hope that your BFC group be so inclined to do so.
Mr. Ward: That should certainly be taken under advisement.
Senator Cochrane: This gentleman would like to speak.
[Interpretation]
Mr. Audlakik: We do not have the funding available to train the people to speak English, and they will not speak English immediately. I went to school and started learning English a long time ago and I am still not at a fluent level. We do not have the funding from BFC for such training. If we did have that money, we would need to have this training go on for many years.
[English]
Senator Cochrane: I understand. However, I am saying that maybe one of the objectives could be to allocate funds from these royalties for the education of your children. You say you cannot speak English. I have heard you a few times, you can speak reasonably well; you really can. You can speak English better than I can speak the French language, so you do not downgrade yourself, because you are doing pretty well. You need more practise, that is all.
Yes, it is going to take a long while. I know that. However, do not ever give up because it was only last week when I saw sitting on those chairs about 25 of your youth here and they are spending eight months here in Ottawa in training. You have got good people. They are only young ones. They are going to come back and make the difference in your area, trust me. Do not ever give up. Education is the key to anything; you cannot go anywhere without it.
Senator Hubley: I will pursue the subject of English training a little bit. However, now I would like to talk about infrastructure.
We have certainly heard that how important it is to have wharves and ports and maybe even processing plants. Which comes first? You are putting aside now 30 per cent for your vessel acquisition into a fund where that is going to build up. You are looking forward to getting a fishing presence.
Where are you going to port and things like that when this comes about? What should be the priority? Who should be responsible for each one of these?
Mr. Ward: From the point of view of infrastructure such as ports, docking facilities, and marine facilities that are clearly a role and function of governments. It is not the role of BFC to create infrastructure for wharfs and docking facilities in place. To use an analogy and example, look at Atlantic Canada. The majority of wharves throughout Atlantic Canada — Labrador, in particular — were put there by an economic development agreement, a cost-share agreement between Ottawa and the provinces specifically. That is clearly a role that has to be the responsibility of the governments. There is no question about that.
The board of directors decide annually as how to specifically allocate their funds and they will decide that again this year. We have already set a number of objectives for first three years that we are following through on. The strategy of acquiring a vessel would be to do just some things we are talking about here tonight. That is, that is to funnel it back into education and exploratory fisheries.
We want to go on record very clearly. We have all collectively done a very poor job of education and training of our people — whether it is to speak the language to go on to vessels. One of the major issues on board the vessels is lack of communication as a result of language barriers.
We are going into a major training process within BFC, and we are doing that because we have now the capacity to do it. One of the big things the board is looking at is that whole issue of training and we will allocate substantial dollars in that area specifically.
Senator Hubley: In respect of cost-shared programs, what is the possibility of BFC entering into a cost-shared program to try to put some infrastructure in place? Perhaps that is not your role.
Mr. Ward: Well, it is certainly not the mandate of BFC right now. However, the BFC and its directors can decide on an annual basis how it wishes to spend its funds.
Senator Hubley: What kind of a priority would that take?
Mr. Ward: Very clearly, the cost of infrastructure, putting wharves and docking facilities in Nunavut is astronomical. It is very high in Atlantic Canada. I can think of three programs in Atlantic Canada — Newfoundland specifically — where the economic development agreements were for between $60 million and $80 million to do nothing but create wharves in isolated areas. I know the types of dollars we are talking about here.
The coalition's primary objective is to provide employment while ensuring that boats are staffed by Inuit. We have a challenge. Within a year or two, we can train all the factory workers. However, do you realize how long it takes to train engineers and mates and foremen and so on? We are in the process of doing that right now. We are talking about millions of dollars of training in next three to five years. We are up to the challenge.
Senator Hubley: Where does the training take place?
Mr. Ward: Our priority is Nunavut. Two courses we put off this year were all carried out in Iqaluit.
Where do want to go? We want to provide community-based education where possible. The problem we have is no different in Quebec or in other isolated areas. It is difficult to get them to come away from their families for three weeks to a month at a time. Where possible we want to go directly to communities.
In the worst-case scenario, they have to go to Iqaluit. Train for engineers, nautical work, navigation, and to be a mate will be done outside Nunavut. In all likelihood, it will be done at a marine institute in St. John's or somewhere else in Atlantic Canada. They are qualified to do it. I might add that the marine institutes are negotiating a memorandum with Nunavut College so that they can work with the Nunavut College and send their own people to train. We will help finance that.
Senator Hubley: What is the working language on vessels?
Mr. Ward: Primarily English.
Senator Hubley: Therefore a prerequisite to getting a job or working on a boat would be to have English.
Mr. Ward: No, we do not say you have to speak English to go on board. Some people on board speak very little English. They speak Inuktitut.
That is a problem because to mentor them, we need a group so they feel part of a crew. In the last couple of years, we have had two Norwegian vessels fishing. Most of those aboard speak Norwegian and Russian; very few speak English. You can imagine the mishmash we have.
We are getting over that. Obviously, as we have more Inuit crew on board we have to look at having an interpreter on board if necessary.
Senator Mahovolich: Would you be approaching the government for your infrastructure when that time comes?
Mr. Ward: The Department of Sustainable Development, along with other departments, has had numerous discussions with DFC — particularly the group that deals with small crafts and harbours. I know they have been in Nunavut and looked at several areas, as to where they could look at deep-sea ports and so on.
If you build the infrastructure, there will be a lot of vessels offloading in Nunavut. There will be development of cold storages, trans-shipments, and airlines — there will be tremendous spinoffs.
Senator Mahovolich: The government should be interested in that. It is very positive. I think they should be very interested in developing a port up there. In respect of your young students who are learning English, are they also learning French?
Mr. Ward: Well, we had interpreters in the classroom for the 24 students who took the course this year.
Senator Mahovolich: What about students in grades 2, 3 or 4? Would they have any knowledge of English or French? That is the time to start, when they are young.
Mr. Ward: Perhaps Mr. Audlakik or Senator Adams could answer that better than I. In Nunavut, children are taught in Inuktitut up until Grade 6. Beyond that, they are taught in English.
Senator Adams: Up to Grade 6?
Mr. Ward: Senator, I am glad you raised the issue. Let us look at the demographics of the people in Nunavut specifically. With the federal government and Nunavut government, if you can graduate from high school, you can get a pretty good job in your sector that pays well.
You have to ask the question as to whether you want to go on a fishing vessel for two months at a time — considering you can get a job on land and see your family at night. Clearly, a lot of people wanted to do the training; we had to limit our class to 24. That is all we could accommodate, we, could have filled five classes.
You will find that the people who will stay in the fisheries are going to be those who need the jobs to support their families — the middle-aged in particular. They will stay and they will be your best employees. From the training and education perspective, we have to get them at the high school level. We need to let them know that there are careers in the fishery and that there are choices beyond working in the government. They can become engineers, mates, factory bosses or get into sales and marketing. There are great opportunities.
Senator Johnson: I am very interested in what you said about training. In your paper, you said that a total of 24 Inuit workers finished the course. Where are they now?
Mr. Ward: Onboard vessels.
Senator Johnson: Are these graduate all on the vessels?
Mr. Ward: Those who were ready and willing to go on vessels are on vessels, yes.
Senator Johnson: How many are you training right now as we speak?
Mr. Ward: We will be starting new training programs in January.
Senator Johnson: How long is the program?
Mr. Ward: Anyone who wants to work offshore — not only fisheries, but offshore — must take some basic courses such as marine emergency duties, MED. Those take about two weeks. That is all it takes. You have to jump in the cold waters wearing an immersion suit, figure out how to tip a boat upright, very important stuff. You are sitting up at 72, 73 degrees north and the water temperature zero, you would not survive very long if you cannot figure out how to get back in a little rubber dingy. It is very scary for these people to do this but they have to do it.
Our approach and strategy is very clear. You have to do the basic training, the marine emergency duties, what we call a "pre-sea." In total, it is a three-week program. That will get you on the vessel.
We are not content with that because the best jobs on the vessel are those that are in the positions of factory boss, foreman, engineer, and mates — these positions earn good salaries. We want to get into an apprentice-type program to bring these people in and send them to school in winter months when they are not fishing. That is where we are going. We will not survive until we do that.
Senator Johnson: Then you are dealing with that side of it?
Mr. Ward: We are doing a tremendous amount of work but I am not able to put that on the table here today.
Senator Johnson: When would you be?
Mr. Ward: This will all come out in the wash within the next two months.
Mr. Chair, you may want to comment of that as training is a big issue with you.
[Interpretation]
Mr. Audlakik: I really cannot comment a whole lot on that. We want to do more training but the funding is just not available. Training in the north is costly. We just spent $140,000. We want to put on many more training programs. However, airfare in the North is not cheap. It costs more to fly from Iqaluit to my home community than it does to fly from Iqaluit to Ottawa return.
[English]
Mr. Ward: I would like to answer that question in our closing remarks.
Senator Johnson: Thank you. My final question is in respect of cultural change. Is it going off quite smoothly? They are away from home and outside their traditional way of life.
Mr. Ward: It is a very difficult to take people — by they Inuit or Newfoundlanders — outside their communities. It is similar to when the deep-sea fishery started in Newfoundland in the 1960s and 1970s. It was traditionally an inshore fishery and we had a tremendous problems getting people to work on the offshore. They were only gone for two weeks at a lime. It was a real problem. It is not a problem today because they make good money.
We will go through that same evolution in Nunavut. It is a culture shock. Just imagine someone who is used to living on the land and being home with his family having to go on a large fishing vessel — 60 to 65 meters, four or five storeys tall — for two months at a time without getting off. We have done a very poor job in orientating our people what to expect when they go on these vessels. That is one of the issues we are working on now.
Senator Adams: I want to go back to your recommendation that up to 30 per cent over three years for $1.5 million and the 20 per cent that goes to the fishery for three years.
Many of those people come from fishing families, as they do in Newfoundland. You look after the quotas and buy them from the Nunavut Wildlife Management Board. You also talk about education.
If I have a 65-foot boat and I need six crew, I know they people in the community — I know who are the good hunters and fishermen. I do not think I need to go through education system to get people on board to go fishing.
You want to get into the business and you have the quota system. In the meantime, there are other people who cannot get the money to buy a boat and start a business because they do not have the training. Your request looks like a bit of an overlap with the Inuit who want to get into 45- or 65-foot boats. Instead, the BFC gets the vessels and gets into business and says "this is our quote here and we cannot give it to you." How do you respond to that?
Mr. Ward: That is a very good question. I would have a candid answer to that. Today, if we and issued 4,000-ton allocation to all these boats we still would not get it fished. You know the environment we are operating under. There are no wharves to unload, no docking facilities, no plants other than at Pangnirtung.
In our first three years, our objectives were pretty very clear. If the board of directors of BFC now wishes to look at other objectives such as financing vessels, that is well within their discretion to do that. The board of directors can look at that clearly. I am simply saying that is it the chicken or the egg? Do you use the offshore to develop the inshore? That is the approach the coalition has taken with all 11 members.
In the last three years, we have delivered on all our recommendations and objectives. Our focus over the coming three years may be completely different. It may be based on comments from this committee, or from the HTOs who want to change direction. It is within their mandate to do that. They have an annual general shareholders' meeting to decide the objectives.
I will go on record as saying that within three to five years, you will see a substantial inshore fishery in Nunavut. However, we need to finance it. We need funding for training that goes along with these factory vessels. Once people reach their fishing master four level, which means they can captain a 65-foot vessel or engineer the boat, we hope that these people will want to buy their own vessels. That will part of our evolution. We are going through that now. That is why it is important for an industry sector such as the BFC to look at and change this direction on an annual basis. That is the whole idea behind the focus of BFC period.
Senator Adams: We have heard from the Nunavut Wildlife Management Board and from the Department of Sustainable Development. They said that it would cost about $50 million for the infrastructure to develop a fishery in Nunavut. They said that that DFO spent more than $50 million across Canada last year for infrastructure. However, we did not even get one dollar for Nunavut.
There are some communities who do not have any wharves at all. I think we have to create an infrastructure, especially in those communities that have a harbour facility.
[Interpretation]
Senator Watt: In your presentation today, you used the example of having unilingual Inuit working on the vessels. From what I have seen, Inuit do understand the logistics of hunting. These people already know about the process of hunting and surviving on land. They gain these new skills very quickly.
However, if you are only going to consider of Inuit who speak English, I would like you to know that you will be leaving behind the more skilled people. Please keep that in mind. If you are going to be told that Inuit that do not speak English are not going to be given employment, I would just like to say that you know Inuit have lots of skills.
Mr. Audlakik: I would like to comment on what Senator Watt has said. People have told us that when we do not speak English we are put aside. I would like to be heard on this. It has happened. It has been said to us.
I was put on this board in 1996 to now and I have not heard from them. Thank you.
Senator Watt: You are no longer on this committee.
Mr. Audlakik: I became a part of this committee in 1996. They told us that you will be representing Inuit and we will call you for the meetings, the four of us from Clyde River, Broughton Island, Iqualuit and Pond Inlet. None of us have heard anything from 1996 until this point.
[English]
The Chairman: Thank you very much. I did have a number of questions relating to the freezer trawlers and so on. However, because of the lateness of the hour, I will not be able to ask these questions. We will leave them for another day.
I believe Mr. Ward has some very brief closing remarks.
Mr. Ward: There is a golden opportunity to provide valuable, high paying jobs to geographically and economically depressed communities with Nunavut. We need the support of this committee to put our cause forward. I have a few recommendations to make.
First, the federal government must make a major commitment to infrastructure. It is their responsibility and role. Second, the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans must commit to the recommendations of the IPAC report. We cannot sit here and accept 51 per cent. Yes, it is a majority but it is unacceptable when 80 to 90 per cent is rule of thumb in other southern jurisdictions.
Third, there is a lack of science in regard to fishing up farther north. There needs to be more research and development. We need to know can we fish up to Ellesmere Island. Can we go to 78 degrees north? What other species are in Nunavut? Without a research program, how can we find out? That is the role of government, and we are prepared to put our dollars into supporting it.
Fourth, Nunavut must have its own fishing vessels if it is to control its own destiny and to provide the employment. This will not happen unless you have the tail wagging the dog. Training is a very important issue. We need your support in this respect. There is the Aboriginal skills and employment program to answer Madam Senator's comment/ question earlier on training. The new $85-million national Aboriginal program has just been announced. We are working diligently to set up a major training program for all Nunavut — the BFC aside — to train our people all the way up to the levels of captain over a five-year period.
We are asking for your support for Nunavut in particular to get under this program. We need your dollars and support for it to happen.
We have to continue the commitment to develop inshore fisheries. Let us not miss the boat and sit around for 20 years with no vessels or infrastructure. That is simply unacceptable in anyone's terms today. We are organized and prepared and we clearly want to move forward.
In conclusion, we thank the committee for the opportunity to be here tonight and we invite you to come to Nunavut to fish and to see what a great place it is.
We are confident the Nunavut fishing industry has a bright future. It can become an industry that provides economic input to all of Nunavut.
The Chairman: Thank you. It has been a most informative evening. We thank you both for taking time out of what we know is a very busy schedule and for helping us to better understand the challenges you face in Nunavut.
We share your desire to provide employment for the people of Nunavut and we share your desire to have fair access to the people of Nunavut. This committee will do whatever it can to try to be helpful. That is always our goal.
The committee adjourned.