Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Aboriginal Peoples
Issue 12 - Evidence - Meeting of October 24, 2005 (morning meeting)
PRINCE GEORGE, Monday, October 24, 2005
The Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples met this day at 9:05 a.m. to examine and report on the involvement of Aboriginal communities and businesses in economic development activities in Canada.
Senator Nick G. Sibbeston (Chairman) in the chair.
[English]
The Chairman: We are convening here in Prince George, British Columbia. First, I want to welcome all of you, the senators that are part of the committee, witnesses that are here this morning and the others who will appear before us, staff and of course any audience that we may have from Prince George and area. It is a pleasure to be away from Ottawa and sitting in the region.
The Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples is one of the standing committees of the Senate. Our committee has been mandated to examine the Aboriginal peoples' involvement in industrial development and in economic projects throughout our country. We are particularly interested to know the factors that lead to the success of Aboriginal people.
A phenomenon is occurring in our country where Aboriginals everywhere in all regions of the country are getting involved in economic development and industrial projects. We are going to all regions of our country to examine and meet with people such as yourselves to hear from you what precisely leads to success. Although there many pockets of success, there are places where people are having difficulty getting on their feet. Places such as Davis Inlet come to mind where there is a certain amount of apathy and difficulty.
With that, I will briefly introduce the senators who are here. Ione Christensen is the senator for the Yukon just north of here.
Sandra Lovelace Nicholas is a new member of our committee and a new senator in the past few months. She hails from New Brunswick.
Ron Zimmer, also a new member of our committee and a new senator, is from Winnipeg, Manitoba.
Of course, we have Larry Campbell, who many of you may know. He is from one of the bigger centres south of here, Vancouver, and we welcome him. I am sure he will be knowledgeable about the issues in this part of the country.
Gerry St. Germain is a long time senator and a member of our committee for a number of years.
On my immediate left is the clerk of our committee, Gaëtane Lemay. She organized this meeting.
Our first witness this morning is Lucy Martin, who is a member of the Tsekani First Nation. She is an off-reserve councillor for her band. We also have Bob Inkpen, the band's manager for economic development. You may begin your presentation.
Lucy Martin, Off-Reserve Councillor, Tsekani First Nation: I would like to thank Lheidli T'enneh First Nation for allowing us to host this event in their territory this morning. I would also like to thank the committee for inviting the Tsekani and providing us with the opportunity to speak here.
Chief Alec Chingee sends his regards and regrets he cannot be here today because of prior commitments.
The main community of the McLeod Lake Band is located near the unincorporated village of McLeod Lake, approximately 150 kilometres north of Prince George on Highway 97. Band membership totals 408 members, with approximately 86 members living in McLeod Lake, 15 members living in Bear Lake, 150 members living in Mackenzie or Prince George and the balance throughout North America.
The band government consists of an elected chief, two on-reserve councillors, two off-reserve councillors, one elder councillor and one youth councillor. The current band government was elected into power in June of this year.
The band funds itself primarily through investments in business, but also receives some of its administration and program funding from Indian and Northern Affairs Canada, Health Canada and other government departments and agencies.
By the early 1980s, the band's traditional economy of hunting and trapping had been decimated, largely by the building of the WAC Bennett Dam, which created a 650-square-mile lake and flooded hunting and trapping areas of the McLeod Lake Tsekani. Aboriginal people lost their traditional livelihood and were precluded from participation in the white economy.
As happened to many First Nations across Canada, McLeod Lake Indian Band entered a period of despair and faced the social disintegration of its community. The band decided that this situation could not continue. After repeated attempts to gain contracts from forest companies, band members engaged in civil disobedience by blocking forestry operations.
In the early 1980s, the band and its members were awarded modest logging contracts. Duz Cho Logging was created and through sacrifice, hard work and help from the Government of Canada, the firm has grown into one of B.C.'s largest logging contractors.
In 1987, McLeod Lake Indian Band advised the Government of Canada that it wished to join Treaty 8. Profits of $5 million from Duz Cho Logging were used to hire legal counsel to force the government of B.C. to recognize, and to negotiate with Canada, McLeod Lake's adhesion to Treaty 8.
A problem facing Duz Cho Logging is the mountain pine beetle. As it ravages the pine forests, the allowable cut of the forest has been greatly increased. In 10 years, we expect the band's logging company will have to reduce its size and employment.
While continuing to build on forestry, McLeod Lake Indian Band is looking to diversify its business. Accordingly, Duz Cho Construction was created in 2002 to work in the oil and gas and coal industries of north eastern B.C. Many of the equipment and skills are common with the logging company so this has been a natural progression for our band.
The establishment of an Aboriginal company in the oil and gas industry, however, has not been easy. The band hired an individual who has credibility within the industry, and with the assets of Duz Cho Logging and the band, it has been able to finance a wide range of equipment. Currently, Duz Cho Construction owns 21 pieces of iron and is leasing approximately another 10 pieces.
From inception, it took the band one year of lobbying with oil companies before it gained its first contract. This last fiscal year, which ends at the end of this month, Duz Cho Construction will have completed over $9 million in contracts and will be profitable.
In June 2004, McLeod Lake Indian Band purchased 80 per cent of the shares of Summit Pipeline Services Ltd. headquartered in Thunder Bay, Ontario. Summit constructs pipelines, as well as providing diagnostic and repair services for oil and gas pipelines, municipal sewer systems, pulp mills and other industry. Most of their business has been in Quebec and Ontario, and the company has seen its profitability and market shares slip in recent years.
McLeod Lake has opened an office in Calgary for Summit and has been negotiating with oil and gas firms for business in Western Canada. The goal of McLeod Lake Band is for Summit Pipelines to be a major contractor in the pipeline business and to enable First Nations to profit from this industry.
McLeod Lake has also established its own business development programs and has assisted band members to establish their own business ventures. These ventures currently include owner-operated equipment, forestry and construction businesses, steel sales and fabrication, and the provision of accommodation.
While concentrating its resources on strengthening its existing businesses, McLeod Lake Band is still open to new business ventures that promise profitability for the band and opportunity for its membership.
McLeod Lake Band has a number of goals and follows sound principles in its pursuit of business. Businesses must generate independent income to be used by chief and council to meet the social, health and educational needs of band members. The needs of the customers of McLeod Lake Indian Band's business entities are paramount. The product must be provided at the right price, in the right condition, and in a timely manner.
It is through good, dependable business that Duz Cho Logging has become one of Canada's largest logging contractors. The goal of the band is that the band's other businesses can become as successful.
Qualified people are hired, whether Aboriginal or not, to work in band business and government operations. Work- related training programs are provided for band and community membership. As some of the members lack skills or suffer from social problems, work training has been established to provide skills and promote good work attitudes. It is the belief of chief and council that employment, rather than idleness, is important to the social fabric of the community.
Chief and council try not to mix politics with business and rely on professional managers in each business entity. Chief and council as shareholders scrutinize the financial and business affairs of the business entities to ensure compliance with shareholders' goals, objectives and strategic plans.
Compared to many First Nations in B.C., McLeod Lake Indian Band is considered to be well off. In spite of our wealth and proven business track record, we have experienced barriers to business. McLeod Lake has been unable to obtain bonding for its business operations. Summit Pipeline Services, which had bonding before being purchased by McLeod Lake, no longer has this financial facility. We understand that the reason we can no longer be bonded is the elected nature of Indian bands and the Indian Act, even though Summit Pipeline Services is a stronger entity today than it was at time of purchase.
Many pipeline jobs require a performance bond to be posted. The lowest cost is to be ensured for performance bonds. Other methods of posting performance bonds include obtaining an irrevocable line of credit or posting cash with a lawyer in trust. Both options are expensive and bind a firm's cash. Without bid bonding, we lose many opportunities for Aboriginal business and employment.
Although we have a good relationship with the Royal Bank of Canada, there is a limit to how much McLeod Lake can borrow. We have been unable to lever either our interest income from the band trust, or the timber on the 20,000 hectares of forest lands gained in the Treaty 8 adhesion. Many good business opportunities are presented to the band. Unfortunately, we are unable to participate in these ventures because we are unable to use our resources as security. Private firms that have a resource with a net value of $230 million would have no difficulty in raising funds for business development.
Indian and Northern Affairs Canada has been unable to assist us in resolving the financing problems of either the band or its membership. The processes of the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs take years while the window for business opportunity may be months. By contrast, Aboriginal Business Canada is responsive to those projects it is able to fund. A better use of Government of Canada funding may be to transfer all the economic development funds assigned to the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs to Industry Canada's Aboriginal Business Canada.
Education and skills training are important to McLeod Lake Indian Band. We appreciate the training funds that Human Resources and Skills Development Canada provides to bands for skills training, and Indian and Northern Affairs Canada for post-secondary education. With our funds we supplement both.
The cost of training equipment operators is high. Before the privatization of highways in B.C., the local college in Prince George had access to the Ministry of Highway's equipment, and offered good operator courses. The only two centres we know of that provide training now are Nanaimo, B.C. or Fort McMurray, Alberta.
For us to train an operator we must remove a key piece of equipment from production and provide a shadow operator. We estimate that the cost to train an equipment operator properly is in the range of $50,000 per person.
McLeod Lake Indian Band is a major economic entity within our traditional territories and will not be placated or given small jobs by industry to pacify our needs. We demand meaningful jobs and take pride in our work. In the industries where we have established businesses we have a reputation of competence and integrity.
Our band and its members face problems. With income and jobs from our businesses and resources we can advance and resolve many difficulties. However, there are areas of policy or law, and shortfalls in resources that prevent us from attaining all that we could.
McLeod Lake Band takes pride in its work and accomplishments. We are an inclusive First Nation and wish to work with other First Nations and non-Native communities to build a better Canada for all of us.
We look forward to responding to your questions and we hope our comments will be useful to your work.
Senator Christensen: Thank you for your presentation. From all the things you outlined, your economic development appears to be on the right course. You are doing a lot of the right things that will lead to success. Education is one of the areas that creates a problem and you touched on that. Could you expand on that a little bit? How do you see that problem being overcome, getting the training that you need for your people?
Ms. Martin: McLeod Lake Band has always been an advocate of education and we try to keep as many members in high school and in post-secondary programs as possible. At the current time with the funding resources we have, we have approximately 25 students still waiting for post-secondary education. Approximately eight full-time students are in post-secondary programs right now.
Senator Christensen: You say that eight are waiting?
Ms. Martin: I think approximately eight are currently in full-time post-secondary programs and the waiting list entails about 25 students.
Senator Christensen: Is that because they cannot get into programs they want, programs are not available, funding problems or is it something else?
Ms. Martin: The funding program is holding them back.
Senator Christensen: Is that the education funding program under Indian and Northern Affairs Canada?
Ms. Martin: Yes.
Senator Christensen: Does the band contribute in any way to financial assistance for education?
Ms. Martin: The band supplemented the program with about $300,000 last year.
Senator Christensen: As a result of the economic development in your community, and obviously it has been substantial, what social changes has your community seen as a result of the success of your economic development?
Bob Inkpen, Band Manager of Economic Development, Tsekani First Nation: I have had some 30 years' experience with McLeod Lake. First, I work in government now that I work with them. Back in the 1970s most of the people on the reserve were alcoholic. There were at least one or two violent deaths a year.
With the development of the logging company and the profits that flow, there were two things. First, people were able to get work and feel good about themselves, and these people that feel good about themselves promoted change within the community. Today, some people still suffer from alcoholism, but most people are engaged in work.
For the people who are not yet ready to work for industry the Band has created work for them, whether it is cutting wood for elders or doing work around the reserve. The idea is to provide people with work so they can feel good about themselves. In that regard, there has been a tremendous change over the years.
McLeod Lake is a good place to live today and it may not have been in 1970.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: There are lots of good role models there for the younger people to pattern themselves after?
Mr. Inkpen: Yes. One little thing about training: some of our people do not travel well and sending them to Nanaimo for equipment training, or Alberta, probably would not be successful. We need more training closer to home. One reason our education costs so much is because our people live in McLeod Lake or Prince George and there are accommodation problems and costs.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: You raised a question on education and the difficulty for people that have great distances to travel. There is cultural shock as well and this has come up a number of times in our presentations. How do you see that being overcome? Obviously, you cannot have those training programs in each band so how would you see that being overcome?
Mr. Inkpen: Our training needs are fairly specific and so if we can put together four or five people from our reserve and encourage some people from neighbouring reserves, then we can offer on-site training programs. We have been talking to EnCana to assist us in providing heavy-duty equipment operator training in the northeast.
I think we need to have focussed training. A lot of our young people grow up in Prince George. They are urban people and I am sure they can travel well. It is people that grew up on the reserve that are nervous.
Senator St. Germain: I am going to be brief because of time. Unfortunately, we are restricted for time as we have many presenters.
You have 408 people and you broke down the demographics. One question that has come up in our studies is linkage with other Aboriginal nations. Has that been given any consideration because you have not got that many people. Could you possibly link up with the people to the east who are closer to the oil industry? You bring a certain amount of expertise as a result of your logging company. That is one question.
The second one is bonding. I would like to find out a little more about it. It is disturbing that there is not some vehicle to expedite this bonding process because I have been in business all my life — I am not as much a politician as I am a business person — and I know that without bonding you are in trouble. Maybe you could elaborate on those two things, please.
Ms. Martin: I will speak to the first one and perhaps Bob could speak on the bonding issue.
As far as working with other First Nations, we currently have good relationships with all First Nations within the traditional territory of McLeod Lake. A good example of that, which ties into the education and training part, is that we recently set up a six-week training program for pipeline welders through our Summit Pipeline Services entity. I think we had six members from McLeod Lake and we had a couple of members from some of the northern bands, West Moberly and Saulteau.
We have always had a good working relationship with the northern bands because they are within our territory. We are currently looking at developing closer relationships with some of the First Nations west of Prince George because we are all within some of the proposed pipeline expansions throughout B.C. We will pursue that a bit further as well.
Mr. Inkpen: Bonding has been a long-standing problem for McLeod Lake. In the mid-1990s we had a contract to harvest a corridor for Kemess Mine, 230 kilometres, a $26 million project and we were unsuccessful in getting bonding. The Kemess people assisted us by giving us 26 contracts of $1 million each and basically fiddled with their accounting rules to provide us with that work.
We are told that the problem is the Indian Act and the ability of companies to seize assets on reserve. We believe that is not valid because 95 per cent of the band's assets are off reserve, whether they be in Thunder Bay, Calgary, Chetwynd or Mackenzie.
Another problem may be the elected nature of chief and council. Our chiefs, and this is going back to 1970, have always been motivated for economic development. Even though we have had different chiefs, the policies of this band remain relatively the same, but that history does not seem to be sufficient for bonding companies.
I think at the end of the day bonding companies have enough business. They have never bonded a First Nation in Canada, to our knowledge, and I do not see them motivated to do so. This is a big concern of ours.
We have talked to the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs about what the department could do. A lot more thought has to be put into it, but if we could pledge some of the values of our forest lands — the net value is $230 million — that should provide bonding companies with all the security they require.
Senator St. Germain: That is the 20,000 hectares?
Mr. Inkpen: Yes, 20,000 hectares. The total gross value is around $500 million, but then you take away the cost of logging and silviculture.
Senator St. Germain: Is it being attacked by the beetle?
Mr. Inkpen: A little bit: Most of our wood is spruce, although there are bugs for spruce too. We have some pine.
Senator Campbell: Do you have a capability, within your community, for instance, to have people train or educate your community on site? I can understand the difficulties with leaving and going to Nanaimo or wherever. Is there a capability through university outreach or community colleges to bring the training right to you rather than going outside?
Ms. Martin: That possibility is there with the District of Mackenzie, which is not far from McLeod Lake. Members in both McLeod Lake and in Mackenzie would probably do well, band members who would rather stay local than travel and get training elsewhere.
Senator Campbell: I can understand the cost of using a piece of equipment, plus a shadow operator, plus one of your citizens. That is a large chunk to lose whereas if you could do it right there and everybody lived there, if you needed a piece of equipment you could probably work around it. That is one area that perhaps we should look at.
Senator Zimmer: You have an economically strong proposal. I will go a bit further than my colleague. Senator Campbell asked whether you could bring the trainers here, but do you have a plan whereby you can train the trainers whereby Aboriginal people eventually do all of the training in-house, as Mr. Inkpen has indicated. What happens many times is you bring people in to train the Aboriginal people but then they leave and you have to go back and do it again. Is there a plan to train the trainers, which are the Aboriginal people and in-house?
Mr. Inkpen: By and large, band members still have to grow a bit in what they are doing. We have a couple of Aboriginal people who are not members of the band but they provide forestry training, and work with the crews.
The Chairman: That is all the time we have so I want to thank both Ms. Martin and Mr. Inkpen for their presentation.
Our next witnesses are representatives from the Burns Lake Native Development Corporation. Welcome to our Senate committee meeting. We are pleased that you are here today to make a presentation.
Emma Palmantier, Vice-chair, Burns Lake Native Development Corporation, and Chief of Lake Babine Nation : First, I would like to thank you for including us as presenters. An executive member was supposed to accompany me but he had a heart attack yesterday. He is our treasurer/secretary, and I am the chief of Lake Babine and also the vice-chair of the Burns Lake Native Development Corporation.
I have my presentation in front of me and there is a profile of our corporation and the nation in the back. As a representative of both Burns Lake Native Development Corporation and Lake Babine Nation, I fully support this senate committee in their quest to study Aboriginal economic development.
Accordingly, I would like to encourage the committee to look at British Columbia by region, for example, and analyze those factors that impact Aboriginal economic opportunities by population demographic, types of present businesses and industry, isolation, Aboriginal graduate stats and secondary and post-secondary graduation rates.
Key success factors for Aboriginal involvement in economic development are a joint Aboriginal and industry project with government assistance; flexible government participation; a tailor-made solution to the opportunities at hand rather than to pre-specified programs; reputable and fair-minded partners; a decentralized Aboriginal Financial Institution, AFI, network for delivering economic delivery services rather than centralized from large urban centres and government support for strengthening the AFI network, which helps to localize decision-making; AFIs with sufficient self-generated funds via successful businesses and investments to enable the AFI to have low dependency on government funding for the financing of the AFI's initiatives; assistance with training initiatives tied to the strong likelihood of subsequent employment; income tax exemption for on-reserve earned income for Aboriginal proprietorships; well developed business management and operation skills in Aboriginal business operators; high levels of education; and assistance in developing policies that promote and expedite economic development and opportunities that arise or are created.
The obstacles impeding Aboriginal community involvement in economic development are as follows: lack of funding; the lack of training; bureaucracy in delivering programs where lengthy processes can lead to opportunities disappearing before they can be taken advantage of; disproportionate bargaining strength between communities and industry; Indian Act prohibition on on-reserve assets getting placed as loan collateral in small business formation so people cannot access the capital locked up in their homes to help finance their businesses: unscrupulous business partners; unhealthy habits such as drugs and alcohol; in provincial joint venture initiatives or individual organization initiatives, funding is accessible primarily by municipalities; and lack of cooperation and communication between industry and funding sources.
Examples of case studies of Aboriginal successes are as follows: We have the Babine Forest Products and recently the Cheslatta Forest Products.
Recommendations to government and Aboriginal communities concerning the most effective and efficient way to support economic development are as follows: First Nations require more discretionary economic development funds; focussed capacity building; government needs to extend more incentive to industry for joint ventures with First Nations; explore ways of extending income tax exemptions for off-reserve based earnings or Aboriginal-owned corporation earnings; explore ways of helping Aboriginal people borrow against the equity built up in their homes for small business purposes; continued assistance for developing business operating and management skills; flexible government participation in Aboriginal business initiatives; continued support to encourage students to pursue the completion of secondary education and post-secondary education and training; continued support to those in need of assistance to live healthy lives; and continued assistance by strengthening the Aboriginal Financial Institute and the network linking them, the National Aboriginal Capital Corporation Association.
Lake Babine is one of the largest Indian Nations in B.C. The band is situated 142 miles west of Prince George and we have a total population of 2200. The band has 27 reserves, five of which are inhabited year round.
Prior to 1957, the band was two separate bands, the Old Fort Band and Fort Babine Band, both situated on Babine Lake. At the time, approximately 12 communities were inhabited year round. On June 12, 1957 the Department of Indian Affairs amalgamated the two bands to form what is now known as the Lake Babine Nation.
The council consists of one chief and four counsellors for Woyenne, two for Tachet, two for Fort Babine, one for Nedo'ats and one of the Woyenne counsellors acts for the community of Donald's Landing. Although each of the communities has their own band, the financial administrations and control are done from the main office at Woyenne.
The Department of Indian Affairs Canada and Health Canada recognize the five communities of Lake Babine Nation.
Woyenne is situated within the main boundaries of the Village of Burns Lake. The reserve area is 188 acres in size with a population of approximately 900. The band's central administration office is also located on the Woyenne reserve.
Tachet is located 60 miles northeast of Burns Lake, near Topley Landing at the mouth of the Fulton River. The community has a population of more than 200. There is a satellite band office in the community.
Fort Babine is located 165 miles northwest of Burns Lake at the mouth of Babine Lake. The community has a population of nearly 150 members. This community has a satellite band office.
Donald's Landing is approximately 20 miles northwest of Burns Lake on Babine Lake. Although 13 families spend up to eight months in the community, three families often live year-round in the community. A satellite office is located in the village of Burns Lake.
Old Fort, or Nedo'ats, is located 20 miles northwest of Granisle on Babine Lake. The majority of 14 families spend up to 10 months in the community, and three families often live year-round in the community.
The communities are on the map I have included here.
I will provide the history of Burns Lake Native Development Corporation. It consists of six nations. The Burns Lake Native Development Corporation was established in 1974 and operates as a non-profit organization privately owned by the Aboriginal communities of the Lakes District with the headquarters in Burns Lake.
The company provides business advisory services as well as debt and equity financing for the creation and development of new enterprises. The corporation does not receive federal or provincial funding assistance. BLNDC's mandate is to create, develop and increase incomes, business opportunities, employment and other socio-economic benefits for First Nations people.
The corporate strategy is, first and foremost, we shall identify and develop viable socio-economic opportunities that will be of greatest benefit to the Aboriginal population and the communities at large.
Second, we shall provide managerial guidance along with debt and equity financing to eligible individuals or corporations for the establishment, acquisition or expansion of viable enterprises.
Third, we shall assist clients to access managerial, professional, financial and technical skills that are necessary for the successful operation of their business.
Fourth, we shall contribute toward social projects, education and training programs that augment the foregoing strategies.
BLNDC has three subsidiaries and affiliates. Babine Forest Products Ltd. is a large lumber producer started in 1974 as a joint venture. It now consists of Weldwood, West Fraser and BLNDC.
Babine Forest Products operates three shifts, maintains 268 employees, markets worldwide, and consumes 850,000 cubic metres of volume a year. Approximately 50 logging trucks are hauled into the mill.
With respect to Burns Lake Specialty Wood Ltd., BSW, BLNDC initiated this secondary manufacturing company in 1991 with venture partners, Babine Forest Products Ltd. and LQT Holdings from Vancouver.
We also have Burns Lake Native Logging Ltd, BLNLL. This harvesting operation is a wholly owned subsidiary of BLNDC and was also started in 1974. The company employs 10 employees and 10 logging subcontractors. Annual logged timber volume averages 130,000 cubic metres.
BLNDC resources are called upon to sponsor, host and contract with various government agencies such as the native liaison officer of the Prince George Nechako Aboriginal Employment and Training Association, PGNAETA, the Forest and Community Business Program of the B.C. Ministry of Forests, and the National Aboriginal Capital Corporation Association, NACCA, which is the youth business program that we are involved with.
The BLNDC's loan portfolio is diversified among small home-based businesses to large capital investments such as our joint ventures listed above. Applications are accepted from all industry sectors.
The services we provide are counselling to entrepreneurs, providing assistance with business plans, government grants and advisory services, et cetera; economic development planning assistance to First Nations communities; pre and post loan counselling and troubleshooting; access to technical, financial and management information; economic and business development workshops and training; BLNDC's own student ventures incentive program and education bursary; and employment, education and training referrals through a native liaison officer.
Out of the total population in the Burns Lake area, including the five other nations, we are over 3,000. We are one third of the Burns Lake population.
The Chairman: I want to ask you about the spirit or interest in getting into business. I come from the Northwest Territories where a lot of Native people live. Some of them, because of money they derived from land claims or because of the certainty of their ownership in land, they have been able to participate and get involved in business. There are a number of major projects, a diamond mine where the First Nations people in the Yellowknife area are very much involved with that.
In the Mackenzie Valley, the Inuvialuit in the coastal area are very involved. They got their land claims in 1984 and they have become involved in business. Down the valley with the Tsay Keh Dene, there is a prospect of a gas pipeline and some of the communities are getting involved in business, but it just seems to me that Native people, particularly because of their past where they have been involved in hunting and trapping and that way of life, some of the communities have a difficult time getting involved in business. In your area, what is the philosophy or motivation that would get you to see that economic development is really the way of the future, that as Aboriginal people we really have no choice, we have to get into the world of computers and technology so we obviously have to move into that whole sphere. Can you tell us about your band and your people's situation, in terms of getting from a life of hunting and trapping, life in the bush as it were, to getting into the industrial world of business.
Ms. Palmantier: The BLNDC board of directors had a planning session a couple of months ago and the chiefs in that area really looked at a lot of the economic opportunities in preparation for the 2010 Olympics, tourism and so on. One of the ideas that came out was the arts and crafts because a lot of our people are still doing crafts. Our people are trapping, even though there is a lot of clear-cutting, but especially in the isolated areas such as Fort Babine, people still go trapping and the chiefs would like to look at that area as some economic opportunity.
Because we represent such different areas of the nation, one of the bands within Lake Babine is looking at bottled water and working with the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs right now. This project is looking feasible because Babine Lake has over 190 miles of lake. The lake presents a good economic opportunity for our people too because we can look at doing some hiking trails and tourism, such as various resorts around Babine Lake.
Also, Skin Tyhee, Cheslatta and Nee Tahi Buhu are communities that are across from Francois Lake and they are accessible by ferry. They are looking at better ways of developing hiking trails for tourism. In Cheslatta, one of the members was a guide outfitter for hunting.
The Chairman: There is obviously recognition that, as Aboriginal people, we had no choice but to move into this fear of business, recognizing that it is difficult to make a living in the traditional way of living on the land, hunting and trapping. Particularly for the young people, if they are to have a good future of employment, they need to get into the industrial age, as it were. They need to be trained and educated, with a view to getting jobs in the future. Also, as band leaders look into the future, they probably want to get into business as a way of making a living and securing the future. Is that accurate?
Ms. Palmantier: Yes, we have been working closely with the elders because they carry a lot of knowledge. We view them as the professors of our community. We are looking at a fishery plant because Babine Lake has resources of salmon. Some of the elders know how to make snowshoes, and we are looking at the elders setting up a training program for our young people and reviving all the traditional values of our people.
We were successful a couple of years ago where we applied for funding from all kinds of resources such as Human Resources Development Canada to the Aboriginal Healing Foundation and the social services education program. We integrated a lot of this funding into a program that we named traditional skills. We brought in a lot of the elders that had experience in various things, such as fishnet making, medicines, arts and crafts and snowshoe making. We were going into boat building, but by that time our funds had run out. We would like to continue with that program because it was one of the successful programs where we got the elders and youth together — not only the youth but the middle aged — where everybody worked together.
It was a holistic approach where the community started healing by getting the elders and the community together. It was really good. There were also spin-offs. They put the crafts on the market to sell and some of the communities were very successful because they managed to regenerate their revenues and continue to make the crafts.
One band that has land within the Burns Lake area has successfully taken over the old school and right now they are renovating it. They are planning to turn a lot of rooms into arts and crafts, administration and various kind of training, such as carpentry and business management.
Senator St. Germain: Of the 268 people you said were working in the forestry sector, how many are Aboriginal people?
Ms. Palmantier: About one third of them.
Senator St. Germain: Is that all?
Ms. Palmantier: Yes.
Senator St. Germain: Is this a joint venture with a non-Aboriginal corporation?
Ms. Palmantier: Yes.
Senator St. Germain: Have the Aboriginal people taken any leadership roles within these corporations yet? If not, are they being trained for leadership roles in this corporation for the future?
Ms. Palmantier: Since West Fraser purchased Weldwood, we have been meeting with the vice-president and CEO to increase our shares. Right now, we have 10 per cent of the shares and we are looking at increasing that, and looking at more employment for our people and training at the mill site. Right now, a lot of our people have employment at Houston Forest Products about 45 miles away, but we are looking at restructuring both with West Fraser to increase our shares.
Senator St. Germain: As far as the oil and gas and mining industries go, is your economic sector active in these industries? I do not know whether there will be any exploration for oil and gas in your territory, but there is a significant play in the northeast corner of the province up by Fort Nelson. Have you people made any inquiries or taken any steps because the logging operations that you are involved in, there are similar types of work in construction in gas and oil exploration. Is your particular band looking at economic development opportunities working with the various nations that are up in that portion of the province?
Ms. Palmantier: Yes, we are. Enbridge was planning to schedule a meeting with our people, particularly with Lake Babine because we are such a big nation. We are looking at scheduling a meeting with them and bringing all our people together to get information. I have seen the proposed plan and the pipeline will go through our traditional territory so we are looking at working with them.
Senator St. Germain: Is there any thought in the minds of the Burns Lake Band, with you in leadership, of working together with all these other bands to form a master corporation because if oil, gas and coal, which are abundant in these areas, are to be fully developed it would be a crying shame if our Aboriginal peoples were not in a position to capitalize on it because they had not worked together. Is there any thought to that?
Ms. Palmantier: A friend told me that the Northwest Tribal Treaty is proposing to have an Aboriginal forum in regard to the oil and gas, and they will bring in the hereditary chiefs and the youth to begin discussions on that. I am sure that everyone will need to go because the Northwest Tribal Treaty is a large nation in northwest B.C.
Senator St. Germain: Is the northeast not involved in that?
Ms. Palmantier: I am sure they probably will be included.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: Senator St. Germain asked my first question, but I would like to elaborate on it, and that is the employment. You say one-third of the 268 jobs, so that is about 89 or 90 people out of the population of your band, which is 2200 people. What would be the reasoning for that? Why would it not be a higher percentage? Can you go back and explain it to me so I can listen and hopefully be able to get it?
Ms. Palmantier: We have been bringing this up with Babine Forest Products in regards to the low number of our people working there. One of the criteria or guidelines they have established is, our people must have Grade 12 and they need some kind of a first aid certificate and other certificates.
We have been really advocating for our younger generations and they have been working with the College of New Caledonia to upgrade their skills and meet the requirements of Babine Forest Products. We are addressing that and we are meeting with the managers to increase employment at Babine Forest Products.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: I would like to go a little further into that, but we do not have the time.
Ms. Palmantier: A lot of our people are retiring there too.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: You have that bulge coming up as well, along with all the rest of Canada.
Two of your economic development projects started in 1974, 30 years ago. Over that time, and the growth of those projects I presume, what changes have you seen in the communities? How would the communities define success or what would they see as the success of those projects to those communities? Would the communities say yes, this has been a great help to our community or no, it has not? How would the community define success in economic development?
Ms. Palmantier: The community would define success as training. The executive member that passed on was in Ottawa last week and really emphasized the vision of our people in 1974 where training was so crucial and upgrading was set up by the chief of that nation to train and upgrade the skills of our people to move further into other careers. A lot of our people got employment at Babine Forest Products and Burns Lake Native Logging. Now, some of them are in management positions.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: Over those 30 years have you seen steady improvement, or has growth been static because in the 30 years they have been operating, there are still only 89 persons employed? Why has there not been more growth? We are trying to find out things so we can make recommendations.
Ms. Palmantier: With the younger population and education, a lot of them get their certificate, but it is not an academic certificate, and we are really trying to address that in our own education institute. We have one learning centre where our people go and really try to address the issue of education. That is where a lot of the younger generation right now is with the education.
Senator Campbell: How much of Lake Babine Forest Products do you own?
Ms. Palmantier: Ten per cent.
Senator Campbell: I think you should start increasing it because from where I sit, the idea that you need Grade 12 is clearly not fair. I am amazed and shocked, quite frankly, and as for things such as a first aid certificate, I am sure you could bring in somebody for a one-day seminar for the first aid certificate. This is not acceptable. It is a clear barrier that is stopping people from being gainfully employed.
Ms. Palmantier: We are planning to address that.
The Chairman: Thank you very much for your presentation and your ability to deal with the questions we posed of you. We wish you best of luck in your future endeavours.
Our next witnesses are from the Northern Native Fishing Corp. and the Chairman, Harry Nyce, is the spokesman. You have two other persons with you so if you do not mind, please introduce them.
Harry Nyce, Chairman, Northern Native Fishing Corporation: Good morning, it is good to see you again. I have been around a few years so I know some of the folks.
I have two Williams with me this morning. William Moore is from Laxgalts'a, a board member appointed by the Nisga'a Lisims government.
William Star is from the community of Kispiox, Gitksan Nation, appointed by the members from that community.
I am Chief Harry Nyce, appointed by the Nisga'a Lisims government to the Northern Native Fishing Corporation.
Mr. Chairman, this morning we have documents before you that deal with some history of the Northern Native Fishing Corporation and I have a memorandum that I will present, inclusive of the documents that you are being presented this morning.
We are pleased to represent the membership and shareholders of the Northern Native Fishing Corporation, NNFC, to express our concerns about the dire economic straits of our fishery due to the worst fishing season in living memory.
NNFC was created by Canada and the northwest First Nations leadership in the early 1980s to save 254 gillnet boats and licences operated by First Nations membership from being destroyed by British Columbia Packers. We believed then and now that Canada's fiduciary obligations to the northwest tribes was upheld, and the loss of fishing opportunities for many northwest B.C. tribal members who rely on fishing for their livelihood was averted.
As we know, the principle of fiduciary obligation forms part of the equity. As James I. Reynolds quotes in Smales Equity, “equity is thus a body of rules or principles which form an appendage to the general rules of law, or a gloss upon them.” As Reynolds writes in his recent book, The Breach of Duty:
Sooner or later, however, cases arise in which in some unforeseen set of facts the general rules produce substantial unfairness. When this occurs justice requires either an amendment to the rule or (as in England some five or six centuries ago) if the rule is not freely changeable, a further rule or body of rules to mitigate the severity of rules of law.
Meaningful discussions of economic sharing within our country are welcome and when one member suffers we must do what we can to help. Therefore, we suggest the federal government apply its fiduciary obligations and duty to our NNFC membership at this time. Many of our 254 fishers and their families did not earn sufficient funds to pay for their expenses this fishing season. In fact, their dilemma is similar to their east coast counterparts and the Canadian farmers of the prairies when natural events overtook the resources they depended on.
As a result of the depressed returns of wild salmon on the B.C. coast, the fishers are left onshore to plead for help and recognition of their economic plight. Therefore we are here on their behalf to make that plea for recognition to you and members of the Senate to help us encourage Prime Minister Paul Martin and his cabinet colleagues, and in particular Geoff Reagan, Minister of Fisheries and Oceans, to share the load and give support from the federal reserve to our fishers. Funds from the reserve can be coordinated so that fishers can work for their wages in fish habitat restoration and other related fishery resource labour. In this way, they will restore their dignity and self-worth as they earn employment insurance benefits, help themselves and rebuild the economy in their respective regions and communities.
Another suggestion for relief is for the financial institutions to assist by waiving all payments for the fishers this year. The Department of Fisheries and Oceans could also reimburse the licence fees and other related expenses incurred this year so the fishers are comforted knowing that someone is there for them.
Finally, we ask for your support again and would make the commitment to be available to assist in any way we can to support our fishers. This task has been one of the most difficult ones we have had to work with in many years since the organization was established by Canada and First Nations leadership in the 1980s.
Thank you for your time and consideration of our request for help for the NNFC commercial fishing fleet and their families. We would be happy to answer any questions you have this morning.
The Chairman: We will have the opportunity to read the documentation you provided and our researchers will scrutinize it. No doubt it will be part of the report we make.
Senator St. Germain: Maybe you can enlighten us a little bit on this situation with the fisheries. Is this as a result of nature that the run did not come back, the fish just were not there? Is there an explanation for that because I happen to sit on fisheries committee and they conflict continually, but I know that the run on the Skeena River was down. Are nations other than the Nisga'a involved in the Northern Native Fishing Corp.?
Mr. Nyce: That is correct, Senator. The Northern Native Fishing Corp. was established by the Gitksan Wetsuweten, members of that community. Also, the north coast was represented by the nations, including the Haida Gwaii and the Nisga'a Nation. It was a tribal organization established at that time.
Yes, the natural events are one of the primary reasons that the salmon did not return. In the Nass River there was some success. There was an expectation of 700,000 returns for sockeye and as it turned out, 557,000 managed to return to the Nass River. That was the only commercial fishery that did okay in the northwest, other than the chum salmon fishery for the Haida Nation just a few weeks back.
Senator St. Germain: Does fisheries have an explanation or is it just the phenomenon of nature?
Mr. Nyce: At this point, it is a phenomenon of nature and we have had no technical or expert opinion about what has happened.
Senator St. Germain: Has government indicated they would be prepared to help? Has Minister Reagan given any indication?
Mr. Nyce: We have sent several messages to his office for observation and assistance to our fishers, yes.
Senator Campbell: It seems to me that this year because of the lack of fish that all fishers have suffered. Is there an opportunity for NNFC to join with all fishers to press for assistance from the federal government or is that not a solution?
Mr. Nyce: No, we are prepared to work with the other communities. The United Fishers and Allied Workers, UFAW, from Prince Rupert, in particular, is one and the Native Brotherhood of British Columbia is another. Individually, they have already sent messages and tomorrow we are appearing before the fish committee in Prince Rupert in support of those other communities as well.
Senator Campbell: My biggest fear is this is a trend and we do not know why it is happening. If we cannot get a handle on it we will see it year after year until we end up like the east coast where we have no fish.
Mr. Nyce: We bring the issue forward to you this morning because the east coast was assisted by Canada. During the establishment of NNFC it was a vision of the leadership back then was this fishery would carry forward, and it did until the natural phenomenon started to arrive. In fact, it is safe to say that the investment of the 254 families is in excess of $65,000 for boat, licence, gear, electronics and then effort. This is their livelihood. They have fished for many years. Fortunately, Canada stepped in and also the leadership took charge of the fishery and now we are at the present time asking for further assistance.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: You said you are appearing, or someone is appearing on your behalf, before the Senate fisheries committee as well then?
Mr. Nyce: That is right, yes.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: Although you are the fisheries corporation for the North Coast Tribal Council, what other projects does this group have? As you say, this is not specifically your area but for our benefit could you expand a little bit on what other economic development projects they have under the northern council?
Mr. Nyce: As the previous presenter has advised you of their activities in the forest area, there is a group that has been involved in forestry and recently purchased a tree farm licence and are currently working with that as far as I know.
The Haida Nation are working on and completing a historic museum village on Haida Gwaii. That is one of the larger projects they have. We have not been, so far as I know, involved in sport fishing, for example in sport fish lodges. That is the extent of it, but for the most part fisheries has been one of the larger economic industries that we have amongst us.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: I gather this has been a successful venture until recently when the stocks have fallen off?
Mr. Nyce: Absolutely: Of the three tribal groups, this has been one of the most successful organizations, albeit there are some problems of business-related activity. However, they got past it and it has been a historic thing that happened amongst the tribes that worked together in this venture.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: Are most persons working in the variety of different areas all First Nations persons?
Mr. Nyce: Yes, they are all First Nations persons. Also, they capitalized on the other institutions such as Tricor. Tricor is one of the first First Nations financial institutions that assists in some ways in partnering up in those areas, and that has been one of the things that a Senate committee like this has helped to establish, and provided the assistance required.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: The first run of salmon was the problem but the chum was good this year, was it?
Mr. Nyce: The chum for the Charlottes was okay, it was below average. For the mainland it was not.
Senator Zimmer: Is this the first year that you have had such a dramatic loss in the stock or has it happened in the past?
Mr. Nyce: No, this is the first year of this magnitude.
Senator St. Germain: Is there anything you would like us to do as senators besides talking to the minister? I think we should, seeing as how it is a disaster for you folks. Is there anything else you would like us to do?
Mr. Nyce: At the end of the day, the environment will be one of the issues that will come up with respect to reasons why this happened. That is why, as part of the presentation, we looked at the fishers being involved in the habitat restoration areas. That could be part of the answer.
The Chairman: Thank you very much. I wish you well in your endeavours.
We have next the Northwest Tribal Treaty Nations and Justa Monk, Executive Chairman of that organization.
Justa Monk, Executive Chairman, Northwest Tribal Treaty Nations: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to the committee for giving me this opportunity to share our concerns as First Nations from Northwest Tribal Treaty Nation.
I tabled with you a summary of the study that we did last summer. A year ago we had some funding from the provincial government that gave us an opportunity to visit our nations in various communities to see what they wanted in the economic development, and the joint ventures they wished to participate in. We asked the federal government for a match in funding to continue this and make a strong recommendation paper, but we did not get that opportunity. The federal government refused to match the funding we got from the provincial government.
I want to remind the Senate committee about a royal commission back in the 1980s that cost the federal government $60 million to $80 million to do some sort of a study about First Nations in Canada. In that royal commission report, there were lots of recommendations and concerns from the community of First Nations. Today, I understand it is gathering dust in Ottawa somewhere. I hope that will not happen with this committee after they hear all the First Nations because I am starting to look like research material I have been studied so long.
Chief Palmantier took all my time so I am going to make mine short to bring you back on schedule.
As you see in the summary and the things I tabled with you, approximately 40 nations came together to form the Northwest Tribal Treaty Nations, from Haida Gwaii at the Yukon border to Prince George. Our booklet is called, Working Together. Our dream or our wish is that we will do something collectively for the younger generation.
Our booklet says that 65 per cent of the population in our territory is 29 years of age and under. That is a high percentage of the population that is young and not employed. We have 95 per cent unemployment in communities throughout the nation.
Senator St. Germain: Say that again, please.
Mr. Monk: We have 95 per cent unemployed. Tell me if I am not making myself clear and I will try my Carrier language too.
Mr. Chairman, it is really frustrating to sit here and talk about First Nations' wishes to be employed to the same degree as the public as a whole, and to have an opportunity to go into business or into joint ventures with people that are enjoying what they are taking from the territories of First Nations.
I have been lobbying for 36 years and I have never seen anything positive happen for our people. I will not blame the public or the government one hundred per cent. Some of it is our fault. We should have tried earlier to prepare our people for the modern world and technology today. However, there are some downfalls of the government and one of them is the residential school. There have been hard feelings from residential school and some of it is culturally related. Our people still believe that the territories they own are meaningful to them because they grew up on those lands and that is their shelter and their way of life.
Earlier, I heard the question being asked about how we could be involved in economic development. I think if the opportunity was there we would be involved in modern day living today. We need capacity-building and training. We need to tell our people that the world in the past has to be in the past. We need to get into the picture of today's technology.
How we do that? It is how we get our financial resources. It is hard as a leader to say, I will try to create a job for you, and just make a promise. As a leader, I do not like to break promises. When I say I want to do something for my people, I want to do it and do it meaningfully.
The Northwest Tribal Treaty Nations have tried to look at the ways and means of creating opportunities for our people. The booklet we have tabled with you will tell you what we are looking at.
I come from a nation that consists of a population of about 1,700. I will talk about that to give you an example of what I mean by not being given the opportunity to get out there in the real world and be part of it, and part of real Canadians. My nation gets a welfare budget on one hand of $1 million a year; they get economic development on the other hand of $87,000 a year.
That is the frustrating part, Mr. Chairman. If the government wishes to stay under the welfare system maybe they should increase it from $185 per month for single people to maybe $500 a month so at least they can make a living.
Yesterday, a young guy came into my house and said, I am sick and tired of this place. I said, what you mean? He said, I have nothing to do, I have no job. Is that why you are drinking, I asked? He said, yes, and that is why I keep going to jail because in jail at least I get fed every day. That is a pretty sad statement from a 21-year-old kid. I feel really bad.
The leadership of both federal government and provincial government, Prime Minister Paul Martin and Premier Gordon Campbell, have stated there will be a new working relationship with, and more opportunities for, First Nations. I would like to see that day come along before I become a statistic that has been talking for 36 years. I would like to see that happen and I challenge those two leaders to make it happen because all we have been hearing is promises. Nothing really positive has happened in the area of financial resources, training, capacity building, or joint ventures.
I hate to sound negative but this is the way I feel about our people. Being in leadership 36 years, it is hard to ask your people at the grass roots level what they want when you have nothing to offer them. It is no wonder our people are drug addicts, going to jail left and right and filling up the jails more than the other Aboriginal people. We have nothing for them at the community level and nothing on reserve.
I have said to many people that I am an inmate of Canada and I will tell you how I am an inmate of Canada. I have been put on reserve. I have a fence around me. I have guards over me, known as the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs. I have a band number which has branded me, and I am living on welfare. I am being fed by welfare. I am inmate of Canada. Hopefully, before I retire I can get out on parole so I can see outside the reserve and what is happening out there and have that opportunity to be part of the outside world.
Yes, I cannot deny that financial resources are sometimes available for our First Nations in little amounts, but you have to cut so much red tape to get that dollar, and one million policies to get $2 is not going to improve First Nations and the employment rate. It will not move us into the new world of technology. We need a lot of money to do capacity building. We need a lot of money to do training.
Chief Palmantier said Babine Forest Products required Grade 12 to work on the sawmill. It sounds ridiculous but that is what it boils down to. It is the same thing in our territory and the same thing in every territory.
Northwest Tribal Treaty Nations are trying to change that by seeking real money for our nations. We, as an organization, want to help them get that money, get that training and get those jobs. That is what our goal is. We do not want to act like the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs. We want to help them get it and let them do it because if self government is going to come about, it is their issue and not ours.
Mr. Chairman, I thank you for listening. If I sound upset it is because I am upset. I have been for many years. I do not think I will ever hear something positive coming from anyone to help my people and it is really frustrating.
The Chairman: Our Senate committee is looking at the role of Aboriginal people in business and it is recognized that while there is some success, there are a lot of situations where it is not happening for Aboriginal people. You represent those people.
It is good for us to hear what you told us this morning because we do not want to hear just the success stories. We want to hear some of the difficulties that people have in trying to get on their economic feet. What you told us is good, useful information, and I appreciate your involvement in an organization that is trying to do something about it. You say that you have an organization of 40 First Nations that are trying to work together to deal with the issue of economic development. That is what your organization is about, right?
Mr. Monk: That is right.
The Chairman: You are dealing with the whole issue of wanting to get into economic development, off the welfare treadmill and into meaningful employment and business opportunities. You talked about money from government. While I think money from government is always useful, in the end it will be up to people in the communities and the leadership. That is where the initiative and the drive will eventually have to come from to get into business and change things.
While you talk about a tough situation, is there any hope at all? Is there a situation where there is interest? Are young people being trained so that in the future they will be able to take part in the economy? Are leaders open? Are leaders trying their best to get into business, create partnerships and so forth? While you are telling us of a situation that is really tough, is there any hope? What are the answers that we need to focus on?
Mr. Monk: There is a lot of hope. The only thing that needs to happen is give them opportunity. That is what I said. I will use Kemess North for an example. Kemess North is the area of the four nations, Kwadacha, Tsay Keh Dene, Takla Lake and Gitskan. In their documentation and in negotiations they have said there are 400 jobs out there and if we train our people, could 200 of them work there? There is that possibility and there are jobs there that pay well.
The same thing could happen with the logging companies. The same thing can happen with the pipelines. Enbridge is a good example. It is going through all the territories of the First Nations in this area and apparently there will be opportunities there, but they have to accept and recognize us. Sometimes they figure that someone with Grade 10 does not have enough education to do things. I disagree with that concept. As long as they have the heart, the mind and the ability to do things they can do it. You do not need a high tech computer to tell you what to do.
So if the opportunity is there, Mr. Chairman, we will take on the challenge of joint ventures and we will take on the challenge of issues such as employment. Right now, we do not have that opportunity. Every time we ask for something or every time we try to get a joint venture going we do not have enough money, or we do not have enough education. Those things can be done as we do work.
A lot of First Nations have gotten to where they can now be self-sufficient. That could happen to anyone. Yes, we do have opportunities but we need that first foot in the door.
Senator Christensen: Of the 40 nations that are represented under the NWTT, how many of those nations have economic development projects underway?
Mr. Monk: I think the documentation states how many of them there are. Take my nation; we have a tree farm licence. We had a sawmill, but when we applied for our sawmill we were put under conditions that we have to use a band sawmill or another sawmill so therefore we could not keep up with this technology and it went down.
Probably quite a few nations have some employment and some businesses. I know the Kitwanga Sawmill went down because of lack of things. Some are still running and some went down.
Senator Christensen: We have had a number of hearings so far and one of our First Nations presenters/witnesses made this statement, and I just wonder how you respond to it. He said in the end we have to trust ourselves. Governments do not build the economy, communities do.
Mr. Monk: I agree with him. We have to trust ourselves and one another. Regardless if it is a community, municipality, region or province, we have to trust one another. That is why the title of our booklet is Working Together. That is our wish.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: What is the relationship like between First Nations and non-Aboriginal people in your community?
Mr. Monk: The relationship between Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal people in my community is negative. If you are talking about Fort St. James, it is a small community and businesses in Fort St. James are family oriented so we do not have much opportunity. We have opportunities now because of I did some negotiations a few years ago for some of our people to work in the stores and the banks but very few in the sawmill. We still have a high unemployment rate. It is not totally negative, but there are family-oriented-business issues in a town like that. I am certain other places are like that too because if you have your own business your family comes first regardless.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: Do you think racism is a factor?
Mr. Monk: I do not think a high percentage of the population is racist. There are some cases but I do not think it is something that would bother me.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: If the committee suggested to our Prime Minister to provide more funding to communities in your situation, would that be a good recommendation?
Mr. Monk: That would be a good recommendation. If you take the three nations at Fort St. James, they outnumber the non-Aboriginal people. Other places such as Burns Lake, as Chief Emma Palmantier told you about, have the same sorts of issues. If the federal government provides more funding, definitely we will have a partnership with the municipality.
Senator Campbell: I have spent a fair amount of my career dealing with First Nations and I do not think I have ever heard the situation in Canada described as well as you did.
Let us say that I want to run a pipeline through your territory and I say, this is what I want to do and this is what you need to get work. You realize those requirements are barriers to your people — Grade 12, first aid or whatever. Are you in a position to say, no, we will not accept those requirements and you will not build your pipeline until we reach an agreement that is good for our people?
Mr. Monk: If I said that then I should not be asking to work together. I should not do that. I would be contradicting the booklet that I gave you. Yes, I think there are opportunities and we could talk about them: capacity building and training. Yes, we have to work together to achieve something because if I sit back on reserve and just complain and look at stuff going by, I am not going to get anywhere, but working together, yes, I will.
Senator Campbell: I did not mean that you would sit back and complain. I will give you an example and I can only take it from being the Mayor of Vancouver. Say you want to come into Vancouver and build a 300-unit apartment building. We sit down and negotiate and I say, I want a park, I want 20 per cent of the apartments to be low income and I want money to go into this and that. We sit down and negotiate so that the City of Vancouver, and I would use your nation as the City of Vancouver, gets a substantial amount of benefits from that business coming in.
They are there to make money, which is fine, but at the end of the day the nation, the city, has to get benefits from that commensurate. When you say, for instance, Babine Forest Products is logging on your territory, could you say no, I am sorry, but the person has to show the capability and the ability to do a job, regardless of whether the person has Grade 12 or not. Do you have the ability to say no, those job requirements are not satisfactory to us so you are not logging in my territory?
Mr. Monk: We have that ability, as far as I am concerned, to negotiate revenue sharing. For revenue coming out of our territories, we can talk about revenue sharing. With that revenue sharing I can cut down that $1 million welfare budget by hiring our people and training our people to be part of the action out there. If they do not talk to us and negotiate with us about going through our territory and if they do not talk about revenue sharing or jobs, they will be able to go through. They would have tough time.
Senator Campbell: It is a matter of negotiating and standing strong?
Mr. Monk: That is right.
Senator St. Germain: I have heard a presentation like this before from a friend of mine, Herb George, who I am sure you are familiar with.
Mr. Monk: Satsan, yes.
Senator St. Germain: Does your organization encompass up by Fort Nelson?
Mr. Monk: No, no.
Senator St. Germain: Have you thought of encompassing that area?
Mr. Monk: One of the Treaty 8 bands approached me as the executive chair and one of the board members to be part of our organization and I keep promising that I will bring it up in our next assembly, November 23, 24 and 25.
Senator St. Germain: Are you thinking about the big picture in northern B.C., everything in your territory and in the Treaty 8 territory, because you are sitting on a vast amount of natural resources — coal, oil, gas and various other mining. China and India alone have a thirst for all these natural resources as they develop economically. Are you thinking in terms of the big picture of bringing everything together and sitting down with government?
The premiers and the prime minister will meet in Kelowna, November 24 and 25. Are you going there in a united fashion to say, there is huge wealth being taken out of our traditional lands. What plans do you as governments have to allow us to share in that and rid ourselves of this 95 per cent unemployment? What you said about being fenced in on reserve, residential schools, band number, the welfare society and Indian and Northern Affairs Canada being paternalistic and wanting to dictate your lives: all this should be addressed at that conference.
As leaders, is there any way you can go there and make a presentation that these people cannot ignore? I have heard Herb George stand before crowds of people saying you make light of us, you ridicule us, you tell us we are nothing but a bunch of welfare bums yet you do not give us an opportunity. Do you have a master plan is the question I am asking because if you do not, I wonder whether your plight will ever be resolved?
Mr. Monk: First, I am not the chief to go to Kelowna and give a talk. I wish I could go. I know Chief Emma Palmantier and other chiefs will be there and I hope they will bring that message, but I am not going there.
Northwest Tribal Treaty Nations has plans, wishes and a vision. Treaty 8 has talked to me about something like joint ventures. First it was First Nations and different issues, for example, timber, logging and sawmills, and how many First Nations we could get together to start a business, similar to what Canfor is doing.
The second aspect was employment opportunities, for an example, from the gas pipeline that is going through. We want to see what can do collectively as nations regardless who we are and where we are located. Also, what could we do collectively to participate in mining as First Nations, including Treaty 8, Northwest Tribal Treaty Nations or other communities? Those are the plans. That is our vision. At least, that is my vision for my people: First, to see if we can have a protocol to do joint ventures together and second, to go outside and form joint ventures with some companies.
Senator St. Germain: I know Gwyn Morgan, who is head of Encana. He is one of the leading businessmen in the country, head of one of the largest resource companies out of Calgary. Have you ever sat down with people like Mr. Morgan and said, this is our situation? Maybe it is time to go to the business leaders rather than the political leaders.
I do not consider myself a business leader nor do I consider myself a political leader, but I have been in business and I have been in politics. I have been a member of Parliament and a cabinet minister, and I am just a Metis who came out of Manitoba.
I have had great businesses. I have done land development. Sometimes, somewhere along the way, I think your organization and other organizations, if you can get together with Treaty 8, should go and sit down with a man like Gwyn Morgan. Mr. Morgan is a tremendous businessman that is looking for business opportunities and opportunities to develop his corporation, but he also has a tremendous corporate conscience in the communities of this country.
Have you ever thought of going to the heads of these major corporations, the captains of industry or whatever you want to call them? I can tell you they are as concerned about their tax dollars being blown away by the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs as anybody and they want to see a solution.
The other thing is, the work force you have of young people in the Aboriginal community is equal to none in this country. A statistic was given to us this morning by one of the presenters that half the people in your communities are young. That has tremendous potential for the workforce in the world of industry. I am not trying to tell you what to do or how to do it. I just make the suggestion.
Mr. Monk: I appreciate your suggestion.
My aunty told me before she passed away that you clean up your backyard before you go into somebody else's backyard. Let me tell you why I say this. First, we have to ask our grassroots people, are we ready for a change and ready to go out into the high tech world to join other people? That is the cleaning up I think we need to do as leaders. Then we go out and start looking for somebody such as Mr. Morgan that you are talking about to sit down and negotiate business-wise, in joint ventures and other things, and let our people know. Sometimes too quick of a chance will distract our grassroots people too and we need to be careful with that.
I have been around long enough that I want to be careful. My daughter once told me, you from up there do not hand down decisions. You get them from the grassroots and bring them up. That has been buried in my head and that is the way I like to operate. When I am ready and when my people are ready, yes, I will sit down with Mr. Morgan.
Senator Zimmer: I was moved by your presentation especially about the young lad. It was moving and it is reality.
As a new senator one of my major causes is youth around the world, and Senator St. Germain touched on that, as far as the plan for your corporation, but also a plan for your youth. Have you had any thoughts or have you developed any plans at all for the future generation of youth, which really are our current generation? Do you have a plan whereby you can incorporate them into what you want to do overall?
Mr. Monk: I will give you an example, Senator Zimmer. On November 23, 24 and 25 we are having an assembly that consists of Northwest Tribal Treaty Nations here in Prince George regarding Enbridge, the pipeline that is coming from Alberta to Kitimat. In that assembly I have told our staff to invite the chiefs, the hereditary chiefs, the elders and the youth.
Unfortunately, the assembly will be at the Treasure Cove Casino Hotel and youth are not allowed on that property because they are under age. I suggested that we, the chiefs, the hereditary chiefs and the elders, have a forum for the youth because it is their future we are talking about. It is their preparation and I would like to hear from them what they want in the future and how they want to go about it, so yes, we are looking at the youth.
The Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Monk, for your presentation.
Our next witness is from the Taku River Tlingit First Nation, Mr. John Ward.
John D. Ward, Spokesperson, Taku River Tlingit First Nation: Mr. Chairman, this is my nephew. He offered to sit beside me and give me some moral support. His name is Ken.
I was hoping to do a PowerPoint presentation and luckily enough I was able to do some colour prints of the presentation. I was hoping we could flip through page by page and you could follow along with me as I made some comments. Is that fine, Mr. Chair?
The Chairman: Yes.
Mr. Ward: We decided to call this presentation, “How to Move the Economy Forward.” I am John Ward, spokesman for Taku River Tlingit Nation. Also, I am interim chair for the Northern Nations Alliance, a coalition of First Nations along the Yukon and British Columbia border with interests on both sides of the border. We have unique issues around how to form this alliance.
Also, I wish to express my thankfulness for the opportunity to come and sit here before you to make this presentation.
Before I get right into it, on the next page I wanted to familiarize you with where our traditional territory is. It is in the north western part of British Columbia. We are squeezed in between Alaska and Yukon. We are a stone's throw from the B.C. and Yukon border. Our community, Atlin, British Columbia, is about 30 miles from the border on a gravel road beside Atlin Lake, which in our language we call Autlane, which means Big Lake. It is the largest natural freshwater lake in province. To the west of us are the coast of Alaska and Tlingit people as well. To the northwest are inland Tlingit people, on the other side of them are the northern Tshoni, and on the northeastern part of our territories inland would be Teslin Tlingit Council. The Tlingit people have occupied this territory for many years.
Our traditional territory encompassed the complete watershed and all the tributaries of the Taku River. Right now there is not a whole lot of industrial development in our traditional territory. It is one of the very few watersheds that is without roads and industrial development has not occurred in a big way. Consequently, we still do a lot of our land economy practices, and live off our lands in traditional economies. We use our lands in a lot of ways. Especially after the Sparrow case in the Supreme Court, we felt more confident coming off our reserves, practicing our traditional ways, and beginning the process of stewarding our lands again.
On the next page, the translation of this title you see, Ha Tlatgi ha Khustiyxh siti, is Our Land is Our Future, which is the gold coloured book that people got in the handout. One of the senators asked if we have a plan. This is something we have been working on for some time now.
I was asked to come here today to speak about economic development and give a presentation on how to move economic development forward, meaning in particular in our traditional territory of the Taku River Tlingit. The most important message is that economic development is not successful if it is not based on sustainability, which is in keeping with Taku River Tlingit values for economic development to co-exist with our way of life. We cannot give up our way of life just to embrace a wage economy and forget about our connection, our values and our practices with our lands.
Today, First Nations have struggled to make these parties understand and include our vision for development on our lands within their regulatory regimes. There is no place to go within Canada, within government that will understand and accept our values as a part of development on our lands and our territories. Meanwhile, government wants to continue to hold on to business as usual without any changes. That is part of the frustrating problems we have experienced in the last while.
I am here today to tell you that our government is saying it is time for all parties to step up and engage in these discussions with the Taku River Tlingit First Nation, TRTFN, as has been acknowledged and supported by the recent Supreme Court decisions in the Taku River Tlingit and Haida cases.
The TRTFN people have a strong understanding of the Canadian government and industrial processes. We are prepared to assist these parties in making the provisions required to accommodate our visions. We have been trying to work this out for so many years now and we have come to understand and have some inside knowledge of how governments and industries work, and through those exercises we are prepared to step up and do our part.
We are at a point in our history where these issues are precedent setting and will provide blueprints for many years to come. There is much anticipation from First Nations across British Columbia, including the Assembly of First Nations, the Union of BC Indian Chiefs and the First Nations Summit, about what the outcomes of these discussions will be. We have faith that these discussions will move forward in a positive and respectful way, and also because of the new relationship discussions coming out of Premier Campbell's office.
On the next page, a sustainable economy means to us that it is consistent with the document I have also handed out, Ha Tlatgi Ha Khustiyxh siti, the Taku River Tlingit Conservation Area Design. The conservation areas design is highly technical and scientific. It was an exercise in putting science and our traditional knowledge together, and taking a snapshot of our traditional territory — what is there and how it works, wildlife, fisheries and birds, what their needs are and how the ecosystems work. It has laid a foundation to move forward.
Sustainable economy means respecting our lands, our people and our rights and title. Things such as salmon are a high calling card to the Taku Tlingit. We continue to use one of our traditional trails. Atlin is part of the traditional watershed that spills into the Yukon River and divides a few miles south of that. All the water runs into the Taku River, and our traditional trail joins those two watersheds. We use that trail to access salmon. It is part of our continuing, ongoing practice. When industry comes in, they do not pay attention to things such as that: they just want to obliterate those and set them aside.
Our elders teach us about respect for our land during the gathering and harvesting times. From a young age we are out there with our parents learning proper ways of harvesting. Parents also drill into our minds that we need to understand that other things are giving up their lives for us. That concept instils respect in our minds and hearts. These concepts and values are difficult to teach non-Native people, especially industry, when they come into our traditional territory and want to move ahead and pay no mind to these kinds of values.
Sustainable economy to us means respect for the Tlingit connection to the land and traditional commerce, our way of life. Our way of life needs to be recognized and protected, as recognized in the Supreme Court decisions. It needs to carry on.
On the next page, I have examples of some of the things we are involved in. One of the fisheries programs is called Taku Wild where our people hold fisheries licences and do commercial fishing on the Taku watershed. They work with a processing plant that processes much of the fish and vacuum-packs it for marketing. That is doing well.
We are in the process of doing studies on micro-hydro, which will eliminate some of the diesel generators so we can cut down on the greenhouse gases.
We are in the process also of purchasing a guiding and outfitting licence, which is one of the largest in British Columbia. We wish to change interior guiding to include tourism as well as hunting, with the idea of promoting sustainability.
“Harmony on the Waters” I have presented to the Parliamentary committee in Ottawa on salmon. In a nutshell, the presentation was about what we were doing with the Department of Fisheries and Oceans on the water, particularly on the Taku River, in cooperation that we have been able work at. We are part of the Pacific Salmon Treaty process as well. I sit on the transboundary committee that sits just below the Pacific Salmon Commission. It is a long drawn out process of consultations from the community level all the way up to the transboundary table.
The purpose of that is to show that we have gotten beyond rhetoric. We do not sit around and pound tables and make unrealistic demands. We have been able to roll up our sleeves and in some cases get in boxes that were very uncomfortable, learn our way around, try to work with people and show a willingness to work and learn.
It is important to talk about the land question. Treaty-making was supposed to be the vehicle to resolve the land question. We have been carrying that on for 20 years now with no progress in this process. Instead, we have an increasing uncertainty and conflict, and increasing financial burdens around land and resource issues.
Everybody is getting uncomfortable. The economy is really slowing down. We have to recognize that not addressing the rights and title of the First Nations people is part of the reason. We are getting much more sophisticated as we grow and learn how to lobby. We are working hard to get our rights and title addressed properly so we can move ahead with the economy. That is an outstanding issue to deal with. We need to resolve the issue of certainty, pre-treaty. We need to do something now. We cannot wait for this treaty to be concluded and we are ready. We need to deal with this today.
On the next page, I am sharing some TRTFN perspectives around mining. We have always supported a diverse and sustainable economy. People come to us with proposals and ideas, and we have shown ourselves supportive to things that are in line with our values. What we need also is a harmonized approval process for First Nations and Canadian governments. These larger projects that are being proposed for our traditional territory, we are not strong enough, particularly the Taku River Tlingit, to be involved in the way we would like to be involved. We have to be part of the decision-making process, the approval process. We cannot come to your table and just iterate a few of our concerns and share what our interests are. We are a government and we will govern our traditional territories. We will act like a government, and be part of decision-making and ensure that sustainability will occur in our traditional territory.
We have a willingness to provide guidance to mining companies and other development areas concerning respect for our lands, our rights and our land use vision. We are willing to try to assist in the best way possible to bring this understanding and guidance to them so that these things can happen in a sustainable way.
The final bullet for this part is development that is not sustainable will not occur on Taku River Tlingit lands. That is one of our bottom lines. If it is not sustainable, we will not support it and it will not occur.
The next slide shows what we feel are the federal government's responsibilities. The federal government's participation in addressing Taku Tlingit rights and title will affect all mining and other developments in B.C. for decades to come. Given what is happening on the horizon today it is not necessary to re-invent the wheel. The Supreme Court decision and the recent new relationship developments have already set the foundation. In the talks with British Columbia and Gordon Campbell and the new relationship, the foundation has formed quickly. The Supreme Court has given a lot of good direction. All the pieces are there, so we have to step up and get on with it.
The Supreme Court, especially, lays out and affirms the Crown's fiduciary responsibilities to act honourably. A final point on federal responsibilities, the federal government needs to act immediately with the Taku River Tlingit people and we need to get on with this right away.
In winding down, I want to say a few things. I hope this helps. I want to thank you again for allowing me to come here and I hope this presentation helps your understanding of the Taku River Tlingit and our values in connection to our lands. It is my hope that all parties will act on the opportunity that is before us right now. We cannot afford to let this window of opportunity go by. It will take years and years for it to come again. We are willing, B.C. is willing, and we want to see the willingness of the federal government.
We as Tlingit people have done a lot of work in the last decade. These documents did not happen overnight and we realize there is much more work left to do and we are ready to roll up our sleeves and get on with it. We are all here to stay and we are ready for it.
The last B.C. cabinet and chiefs meeting was held in Vancouver. This meeting is something that the provincial government does on an annual basis: the cabinet and the chiefs meet to discuss issues. At that last meeting, I heard Premier Campbell express specifically a lot of regret and remorse about the way the B.C. Government has handled the First Nations agenda and issues. I am here today to say let us get together and see what we can do to avoid these feelings and statements from being made again in the future.
Once again, I would like to thank you for inviting me here today to share with you what is in the heart of my people. I put a lot of effort into presenting this in a good way and I hope it has been received in a good way.
Gunalchish.
The Chairman: I am just curious to know what is happening in your traditional land area. Are there any development projects? Is anything happening that in any way threatens you? Sometimes projects occur in the area and these projects can be used as a lever, as an opportunity for First Nations to have their rights and issues dealt with. If nothing is happening and there is no incentive, burning issue or reason for the government to deal with issues, the government lets it go.
The way government works, the squeaky wheel gets the grease. In the Northwest Territories, there is the prospect of a gas pipeline so of course government is interested in making sure all issues are dealt with. That is their incentive to deal with land claims and other rights of the First Nations. That is the situation further north. In your area, are there any development projects or issues that you feel are coming upon you that will affect such things for you?
Mr. Ward: I could name two off the cuff or right off the top of my mind. The Tulsequah Chief project, which some of you may know, has been a long dragged-out issue. Yes, we did try to work out our rights and tried to use it as leverage, but what we ended up witnessing on our side of the table was government doing the same thing, using industry as a leverage to try to bury our rights and set them aside.
We are asked specifically to set our rights aside, to let this project go ahead, and we said no. With this particular project they were proposing to build a 100- mile road to provide access into our traditional territories, which is currently unroaded. We wanted to try to work this out with government. As a matter of fact we did. We sat with the B.C. government and Redfern Resources and tried to work these issues out but they would not go to the extent that we felt we needed them to. They had to give us the assurance that this thing would be sustainable.
In our minds, they never met the test of sustainability because they did not follow their own process. The environmental process of B.C. was supposed to make that determination and they did not follow that to a T so we took them to task, hence all the court cases. That is still a threat to us now because DFO has issued the seal of approval for them to go ahead.
At the end of the day, they made an announcement, after years of conflict, that this project is not feasible because of the cost, they are trying to expand their ore findings there and they were doing more drilling. We are saying that it looks like this whole strategy was to just to open up our traditional territory. Maybe it really was not about this mine.
Government, and industry I might add, Tulsequah Chief, had no business taking us to court saying we had to prove our rights. That was a mind blower. It was bad enough that British Columbia government's position was we do not need to do those things unless you prove you have some rights or go to trial and prove them or finalize a treaty. We said we do not have to prove anything, we have been here forever. We have been taking care of our lands forever. They said, I am sorry but you still have to prove your rights. The Supreme Court said, the project is not on and the Tlingit people cannot stop industry from going ahead so you have to get together and work this out, and our rights have to be addressed in a substantive way. That is still an outstanding issue.
The other one is the Adanac Moly Corp. It is literally in our front door. This company is taking a whole new attitude. So far there are no intentions of taking us to court to determine the question of whether we have any rights or whether we know what we are talking about. We utilize experts. If we cannot do this ourselves, we will utilize experts to come with us to help impart understanding and we will learn. They are entering an environmental process. In my mind, these environmental processes that at the end of the day are supposed to issue or not issue a project approval certificate are outdated. The common law has changed so rapidly in the last decade, even in the last five years, and these processes are designed to maintain the status quo. They need changes to these processes to include the Taku River Tlingit, the first peoples in British Columbia.
Senator Zimmer: I wanted to get a feel of the magnitude of the mining that is going on in your First Nations area. In your presentation, you talked about providing guidance to mining companies. More importantly, what is the magnitude and how involved are your people in the employment, training, economic development and of course, the future?
Mr. Ward: Can I just take a step back for a moment. Placer mining has been occurring in our traditional territory ever since the Klondike Gold Rush. We are kind of an offshoot of that, and our people have never been involved. It is almost like that today. It is a family business. They bring their own workers so it is very difficult for us to be involved.
The Tulsequah Chief proposal is right in the heart of our territories, to reopen a mine that we were barely involved in when Cominco operated this mine. Adanac Moly is another new project and we are getting involved in all ways. We are getting out in the fields, helping them out with the studies, mapping, providing the information they need as well because we have been collecting information in our territory for years now: water sampling, fisheries and so on. In fact, the Smithers branch of the B.C. government told B.C. Hydro that the Tlingit have more information in that particular area than they do. However, hard rock mining is not big in our area. It is mostly tourism and placer mining.
Senator Christensen: The treaty process that has been underway for 20 years, what is the major barrier to a conclusion on that land claim?
Mr. Ward: I cannot speak for everybody, but I will just say what is in my mind. The problem is the watered-down weak mandates that governments come to the table with to try to work out this land question. They are too low and they are way too weak because every time we want to talk about an issue or even try to explore going down the road, trying to test-run something, the response from the government negotiators is that they are not mandated to go there or do this or that.
Senator Christensen: Transboundary issues are where you have problems?
Mr. Ward: You mean like in our watershed?
Senator Christensen: There is the transboundary with the Yukon and B.C. and lands similar to what is happening to the Kaska Nation area.
Mr. Ward: The transboundary issue is not the big one. The big one is sitting at the treaty table trying to work out our differences when the other parties do not have a mandate to go to places we need to go.
Senator Christensen: You also mentioned the mining and that your people have not been involved with the placer mining and so on. What has been the barrier to First Nations people not getting involved? You mentioned it is family- oriented types of businesses. They are not large, they are very small.
Mr. Ward: I do not know if I could put my finger on one particular thing that is the barrier. Prejudice always exists. I really cannot say. For our part, when it is time to harvest, it is time to harvest. We have to get the berries before they fall on the ground. We have to harvest the wildlife before they lose all the fat. We have to be there at specific times when the fish are running. This wage economy does not provide for that.
Senator Christensen: Of the four examples you gave of economic development, the Taku Wild, the micro-hydro, the game outfitting licences and so on, are any of those up and running and producing revenue for your area?
Mr. Ward: We are starting to see daylight on the Taku Wild one because it is a relatively new business and has been operating three years. We are trying to get a part of the market because it is pretty intense competition, so we are learning a lot.
Senator Christensen: What is it specifically?
Mr. Ward: It is a salmon fishery project.
Senator Christensen: That is the fish that are taken out of the Taku River and processed in Atlin?
Mr. Ward: They are processed in Juneau.
Senator Christensen: Is there not a plant in Atlin too, a small one that the fish are brought to?
Mr. Ward: No, but that is part of our future plan.
Senator Christensen: I thought you had that plant.
Mr. Ward: No, there was a small one there and it was shut down.
Senator Christensen: The micro-hydro is still under investigation or study?
Mr. Ward: Yes, under study.
Senator Christensen: Do you have any economic development projects that are up and running that have been successful or are a benefit to the community?
Mr. Ward: As I said, salmon has been a high calling card for my people historically and even now, there are consistent numbers of fishermen on the river harvesting salmon commercially every year. We have expanded what we call the landing station. The government requires that all fish landed are weighed and all species kept track of so we are providing that service to all fishermen this year, native and non-native. That is a bit of an expansion.
Senator Christensen: We were talking about sustainable development and mining is a non-renewable resource. How do you develop a sustainable program for mining that is ongoing. You have a non-renewable resource and when it is gone, it is gone. Other than reclamation and making sure there is nothing left behind to hurt the environment, how do you have mining as a sustainable economic project?
Mr. Ward: I do not think the point was to ensure ongoing mining. We realize it is non-renewable, but the point is that it has to go forward without destroying everything and everybody around it. People that are involved in it need to be sustainable.
Senator Christensen: To do it in a holistic way so that is not damaging to the environment, and long term issues such as the salmon, moose, deer?
Mr. Ward: That is right, not to infringe on us in a way that hurts us.
Senator Campbell: This is quite an amazing document. I leafed through it and I want to confirm that, consistently, it is about your land, protecting your land and maintaining your traditions. Is that fair?
Mr. Ward: Yes, senator.
Senator Campbell: In here, there was not a lot of talk about employment or unemployment, but rather it is about wellness. For instance, in here you say on average our people eat X amount of moose, and that translates into X amount of dollars we would have spent. What is the relationship of unemployment of your people, or do you even consider unemployment? I sense that it is more about the wellness of the people rather than whether you have a job or you do not have a job.
Mr. Ward: I hope I can appreciate your question clear enough.
Senator Campbell: It probably was not that clear. What I am saying is, first, do you consider employment as a priority?
Mr. Ward: Yes, we do, but it will not supersede our values. We will not trade off our connection to the land for employment.
Senator Campbell: To extend that further, when I look at your economic plan all of them are based on sustainability and respect for the land. At the end of the day, whether you have a truck or not you do not care and I agree with that. I get the sense here that it is not a rush to an end. It is a calm, even quiet look at where you are going rather than saying, if we have a mine here then we have jobs for everybody.
I think you are fortunate to be in the territory you are in because it is relatively isolated so you are able to take things a lot more carefully, although clearly during the 1890s you probably had more people rolling through your territory. According to this you are still feeling those impacts and that is over a hundred years ago.
Mr. Ward: Yes.
Senator Campbell: Is having industry come into your territories at the top of your list, for instance mining or forestry, or would you rather see the people come in and continue your traditional ways but through environmental tourism and things like that? Then you can be yourselves but at the same time be prosperous.
Mr. Ward: In an ideal world, all these things can happen. It is a struggle to make it happen.
Senator Campbell: Okay, this is great.
Mr. Ward: We see the writing on the wall, we see it coming. We realize the attention and focus is going north and that makes us nervous. We are getting ready. We are doing what we can to prepare ourselves.
Senator St. Germain: What is the population of your nation, the Aboriginal population?
Mr. Ward: That is another loaded question in some ways.
Senator St. Germain: It is not a trap.
Mr. Ward: We wanted to know that accurately, and I cannot give you a number to the nearest 10, but we are getting close to 500. About 20 per cent or better live at home, on the reserve.
Senator St. Germain: You say that you are trying to acquire the guide outfitter licence in the area. How many guide outfitters do you have in your territory?
Mr. Ward: There are at least six.
Senator St. Germain: At the present time you do not control one of them?
Mr. Ward: Not one. Our people quit guiding for them because they did not like to see all that waste.
Senator St. Germain: Would you do things differently, considerably differently, than the present guide outfitters?
Mr. Ward: Oh yes. We do not know what that looks like yet, but we know it needs to be done.
Senator St. Germain: At the present time, it is not being managed the way it should be as far as the resources go?
Mr. Ward: Especially when it comes to grizzly bears, they are being pushed up to our area and are running out of places to go. The game outfitters business is big money. People from all over the world want to test their nerves and stand up to a grizzly bear. Our people feel sympathetic towards them and we want to see more done with them than just a contract put on their head. There are bear-viewing opportunities and so on.
Senator St. Germain: You said a few minutes ago that you want to face the realities that there is going to be an incursion of population in your area. How do you resolve the two because in Banff there have been a ton of bear attacks all over the place? That is for another day, but we are talking about economic development here and I find it surprising that all the guide outfitters are non-Aboriginal.
On your land, are you seeking self-government from the federal government, a land settlement treaty or both? This is not a loaded question. I just want to know where you are at in your negotiations with the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs. Are you at the table? Have you a table established in the negotiations?
Mr. Ward: In regards to the Treaty 8 British Columbia have walked from the table.
Senator St. Germain: They have walked from your table?
Mr. Ward: Yes, and we are asserting our government. We are not asking them for it, we are just asserting our rights.
Senator St. Germain: It is an inherent right that you are asserting as opposed to negotiating a position?
Mr. Ward: That is right.
Senator St. Germain: Good position. God bless you.
Senator Campbell: Who controls the guide outfitting licences in your territory?
Mr. Ward: British Columbia.
Senator Campbell: Let me just get this straight. The B.C. government tells you who can hunt in your territory?
Mr. Ward: These game outfitters, I think they sit down with British Columbia and do this plan about what is available and how much they can take. It is worked off in different places, and we are not involved in it.
Senator Campbell: But it is your land?
Mr. Ward: Yes, it is my people's land. We are trying to get involved in those kinds of decisions.
The Chairman: Thank you for your thoughtful presentation and we wish you also well in your endeavours in your future. You have probably come from the furthest away of all the witnesses we will be seeing so thank you very much.
Mr. Ward: You are welcome.
The committee adjourned.