Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Energy, the Environment and Natural Resources
Issue 1 - Evidence - February 2, 2016
OTTAWA, Tuesday, February 2, 2016
The Standing Senate Committee on Energy, the Environment and Natural Resources met this day at 5:07 p.m. for the election of the deputy chair and, in camera, for the consideration of a draft agenda (future business).
Senator Richard Neufeld (Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Chair: Welcome to this meeting of the Standing Senate Committee on Energy, the Environment and Natural Resources. My name is Richard Neufeld. I represent the province of British Columbia in the Senate, and I am chair of this committee.
The first item on today's agenda is the election of the deputy chair of the committee. At this time, I would like to accept nominations for the position.
Senator Seidman: I'd like to nominate Grant Mitchell.
The Chair: Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Some Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Senator Massicotte: I abstain.
Senator Ringuette: So do I.
The Chair: I declare the motion carried. I'm pleased to welcome Senator Mitchell as the deputy chair of this committee.
See how easy that was?
Senator Mitchell: Thank you very much, chair, and thanks to the committee. I know it was an arduous and difficult process. I just will say that on a personal level I appreciate greatly the opportunity, as an Albertan, to be in this position at this time, with oil prices the way they are, with the challenges facing us from an energy point of view, not just in Alberta but across the country, and with Alberta's role in the economy of this country. Thank you very much.
The Chair: Thank you.
The second order of business for this evening's meeting is a motion, and I'll read it:
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be composed of the chair, the deputy chair, and one other member of the committee, to be designated after the usual consultation; and
That the subcommittee be empowered to make decisions on behalf of the committee with respect to its agenda, to invite witnesses, and to schedule hearings.
Do I have a mover?
Senator McCoy: You put the motion up for debate?
The Chair: Yes.
Senator McCoy: We're being recorded, are we? We're on the record?
The Chair: Yes.
Senator McCoy: For the record, just to make clear what this usual method is, we're voting to have a third person on the subcommittee. Our rules for committees stipulate that we elect a chair, which we've done. Our practice is to elect a deputy chair, as we call them, which we've done. There's no reference to a third member for the steering committee, or even a steering committee, in the rules. So our practice has been to have this third person designated.
Now, what does that mean? What does this designation mean?
I touched base quickly with our esteemed chair and am aware, having been here 10 years, that the usual practice is that the "majority party" names the third member of the steering committee.
The Chair: That's correct.
Senator McCoy: So what we are in effect doing when we make this motion — and presumably it will pass this evening — is allowing the Conservatives to name one third member. There's no nomination. There's no consideration of who that might be before us. There's merely a fiat. That's what we're doing. We're saying, "Okay, you choose."
I really don't want to be a rabble-rouser particularly, and I don't want to obstruct processes. I think we should just get on with doing business at the Energy, the Environment and Natural Resources Committee in an amiable and amicable way, as we have done in the past. I must say that this committee does work very well and has under former chairs and under you, Senator Neufeld. It has worked well, and I look forward to the committee continuing to work on matters of substance. But I think this is one practice that has, again, become outmoded because it's party driven; it is partisan; and it doesn't accommodate the possibility of having an independent or a third party represented on the steering committee.
I considered actually nominating myself so that I wouldn't get anybody else into the position of having to vote on their nomination and have it force a vote that way. I thought, "No, I won't do that; let's just carry on with the practice." You might actually surprise us all and decide to have somebody other than one of the Conservative caucus members sit as the third member on steering and be part of a modern Senate, and that would be part of the transition, which would be fine. If not, fine too. But it's something to consider for the next time round. I wanted to make it explicit and to have everybody start to cogitate on how we might conduct ourselves as we move from 2016 going forward.
That is what I wanted to say, and I wanted to say it on the record. Thank you for that opportunity.
The Chair: Thank you for those words.
I'm hoping that after what's happened, how we've done the deputy chair and the third person, that the group leading the modernization of some of our Senate rules will actually take this into account. I would encourage every senator around the table to talk to whoever that is on that group, if they're formed. I'm not even sure who they are. I think we should continue to lobby them for some of these changes, and next time around maybe we'll have that. But, right now, we have to go by the practice and convention, and that's what we'll do.
Senator Ringuette: I'm sorry, but do we have to go by the practice and convention? Sometimes we need to break the mould.
If I may, I would like to move that the third person on our steering committee be Paul Massicotte. I haven't talked to him about it. I don't know if he accepts that.
Senator Massicotte: I'm not sure with this one.
I'd like to ask a question if I could, chair.
Senator McCoy: We've got two motions in front of us, so one motion has to be amended to that motion right there.
The Chair: Yes, Senator Massicotte.
Senator McCoy, let's get it down to one at a time.
Senator Massicotte: I'm looking for an answer.
At Banking last week, when we did the same organizational meeting, we had a brief discussion about the third person, and we were told the third person was being named for logistical reasons. I forget why. Quorum? It was a sort of perfunctory, bureaucratic reason whereby the chair, also a Conservative member, undertook that there would never be a meeting of substance regarding decisions without the vice-chair, of the other party, being there. It was more of an organizational simplicity argument and it wasn't substantive.
Is that the case? Why are we electing a third member? Is it valid that it was more organizational, logistical and maybe for quorum, irrespective of voting? If that's the commitment you make, maybe it's good enough.
Senator McCoy: Can I answer that question? Rule 12-12(3) says, "A subcommittee shall have a quorum of three members."
Senator Massicotte: Because of that rule you need to appoint another one.
Senator McCoy: You need a third member on the subcommittee.
Senator Massicotte: Two cannot meet and make a decision without the third. That answers the question.
Senator McCoy: But that doesn't speak to how that third member is chosen.
Senator Massicotte: It's for the committee to decide, is it not, irrespectively?
Senator McCoy: No. There's no word on how that third person —
Senator Massicotte: In the past we've asked the deputy chair to choose the third person or the committee can say, "Let's have an election."
The Chair: We have a motion and there's discussion across the table.
You need quorum. We have three. The convention is that the majority party appoints the third person to the steering committee. I would ask that we stay with convention until we actually get some of these things done through the Modernization Committee because there might be some things related to this that we're not sure about. I would like to stay there.
Right now we have a motion on the floor from Senator Ringuette, nominating Senator Massicotte as the third person.
Senator Massicotte?
Senator Massicotte: What's the fate?
The Chair: It's hard work and half a brown sandwich every week.
Senator Massicotte: You're asking whether I'll let my name be put forward?
The Chair: Yes.
Senator Massicotte: Sure.
The Chair: We have to, by rules, actually vote on this. We can do it by a voice vote or alphabetically.
Senator Johnson: There's a very specific rule here which says that the deputy chair and one other member of the committee are to be designated after the usual consultation.
Senator McCoy: That's not a rule. Where are you reading that?
The Chair: That was the first motion that we have on the floor.
Senator McCoy: It's a motion. It's not a rule.
The Chair: It's not a rule; it's a motion. It's a standard motion that's done in all committees.
Senator Johnson: It's the usual consultation that I'm wondering about.
Senator McCoy: That's a euphemism.
Senator Johnson: I've been here 25 years. I know what it is.
Senator McCoy: It's usual not to consult.
Is the vote coming up, chair?
The Chair: The first motion I need is to adopt the motion that I read and that Senator Johnson read in. Can I have someone move that motion, please?
Senator McCoy: If we adopt that motion, then it means that Senator Ringuette's motion is moot.
The Chair: No, it doesn't. First we have to deal with the motion to even do it, before we can have Senator Ringuette's motion.
Senator McCoy: Her motion did not amend that motion. That's why.
The Chair: Can I have a mover for that, please?
Senator Johnson moved it. All those in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Carried.
Now we have Senator Ringuette's motion to nominate Senator Massicotte to be the third person. We have that motion out there. Is everybody agreed?
Some Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Senator Patterson: No.
The Chair: I'm going to ask for —
Senator Ringuette: A voice vote?
Senator Patterson: Point of order, Mr. Chair. The motion we just approved calls for the appointment of a third member of the so-called steering committee, which we all agreed with, following the usual consultation. My understanding is that the consultation is between two groups in the Senate — the official opposition and the independent Liberal senators — and that negotiations took place. If that is the case and the committee has approved the motion following the usual consultation process, I wonder whether Senator Ringuette's motion is in order.
I'm all for modernization as well. Don't get me wrong.
Senator Ringuette: Then let's do it.
Senator Patterson: I'm wondering if we should be consistent and respect the motion we just passed.
Senator McCoy: On the point of order, chair, and on a matter of fact, I think the chair stated the usual practice correctly. The usual practice has been for the chair, that is to say the majority party, to designate the third member of Senate steering committees. Just to correct your recitation of the usual practice, the chair did put it correctly earlier: It is the chair, as the representative of the majority party, who gets to designate the third member of a steering committee.
Senator Seidman: It's out of order.
The Chair: I haven't been here for a long, long time, but there's a lot of interest to become involved, which is very good. It shows some good, healthy discussion around this table.
Senator Ringuette has a motion on the floor, and I'm going to deal with that motion.
That motion, Senator Ringuette, was to nominate Senator Massicotte as the third person for the steering committee. All those in favour, please say "yea."
Some Hon. Senators: Yea.
The Chair: Those opposed please say "nay."
Some Hon. Senators: Nay.
The Chair: The "nays" have it.
Now we can get on with moving forward. The person that has been suggested by the leader of the Conservatives is Senator Seidman. Senator Seidman will be the third member of our steering committee.
You were all asked to give some ideas about what we would study. We're going to suspend now and go in camera.
(The committee continued in camera.)