THE STANDING SENATE COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND INTERNATIONAL TRADE
EVIDENCE
OTTAWA, Wednesday, December 11, 2024
The Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade met with videoconference this day at 4:17 p.m. [ET] to examine and report on Canada’s interests and engagement in Africa.
Senator Peter M. Boehm (Chair) in the chair.
The Chair: Honourable senators, my name is Peter Boehm. I am a senator from Ontario and the Chair of the Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade. I wish to invite committee members participating in today’s meeting to introduce themselves, starting on my left.
Senator Gerba: I thank Their Excellencies for joining us today. Amina Gerba from Quebec.
Senator Ravalia: Mohamed-Iqbal Ravalia, Newfoundland and Labrador. Welcome, Excellencies.
Senator MacDonald: Michael MacDonald, Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
Senator Woo: Yuen Pau Woo, British Columbia. Welcome.
Senator M. Deacon: Welcome. Marty Deacon, Ontario.
Senator Coyle: Mary Coyle, Antigonish, Nova Scotia. Welcome.
Senator Greenwood: Hello. Margo Greenwood, British Columbia.
The Chair: Thank you. Welcome, senators. I would also like to welcome those who may be watching us on television across the country or in Africa — it’s possible — and welcome to everyone who is here.
She is not here yet, so I will wait and recognize Senator Robinson of Prince Edward Island later. She is replacing the newly retired senator Stephen Greene and will also sit on our steering committee. We will acknowledge her when she comes.
Colleagues, today we are continuing our study on Canada’s interests and engagement in Africa. We have been at this for some time. I thought it would be a good idea to hear from some practitioners of diplomacy who, in fact, are from Africa but who sit here in Ottawa as ambassadors or high commissioners for their countries.
As we were pondering this, I thought it would make sense to reach out to Her Excellency Souriya Otmani, who is also the Dean of the Diplomatic Corps, and get her advice on how we could construct a panel. Ambassador, I want to thank you very much for the assistance and advice that you provided us in terms of organizing this.
We are going to hear five-minute statements from each of the witnesses we have today. As I mentioned, we have Her Excellency Souriya Otmani, who is the Ambassador of the Kingdom of Morocco and the Dean of the Diplomatic Corps in Canada. We have His Excellency Prosper Higiro, High Commissioner of Rwanda and the Dean of the African Group here in Ottawa. We have His Excellency Ngole Philip Ngwese, who is the High Commissioner of Cameroon. And to round things out, we welcome His Excellency Rieaz “Moe” Shaik, High Commissioner of South Africa.
Welcome, Excellencies. Thank you for joining us.
We are going to go in the order in which I have introduced our witnesses. I never did make chief of protocol, so I hope I’m doing that correctly. Each head of mission will have five minutes. That will be followed by questions from senators and answers from our distinguished witnesses today.
Ambassador Otmani, you have the floor.
[Translation]
Her Excellency Souriya Otmani, Ambassador, Embassy of the Kingdom of Morrocco in Canada, as an individual: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade for giving us the opportunity to discuss with the honourable senators certain aspects that we feel are essential to Canada’s engagement and interaction with Africa.
On November 7 in Toronto, the broad outlines of the Canada-Africa Economic Cooperation Strategy were unveiled, and we look forward to seeing it come into effect. Africa, with its immense natural, economic and human potential, deserves to benefit from Canada’s strategic partnerships and massive investments to support its development and socio-economic transformation.
In a context marked by globalization’s loss of momentum, the return of protectionism and the exacerbation of certain conflicts and tensions, it is crucial for Africa and Canada to develop their shared Atlantic neighbourhood by optimizing their respective complementarities and strengths, in order to create a common space of peace and shared prosperity.
Africa, the world’s second fastest-growing region with 41 high-growth countries in 2024, is part of Canada’s Atlantic neighbourhood. Africa, with the world’s second-largest population, is emerging as the engine of global population growth. This data places the African continent in a unique position of opportunity for both Africa and Canada. However, with economic opportunities also come challenges.
Our world and our respective African societies are in the throes of change, facing global challenges such as climate change, food security, the transition to clean energy and sustainable development in its many facets such as health, education, training, youth and women’s employment.
We need to work together effectively to address current and future challenges, and to do so we need to act within the framework of a convergent strategic vision aimed at developing a common space of stability and shared prosperity. Africa can contribute to securing some of Canada’s key supplies, while also being an important market for Canadian exports.
This also involves Canada contributing to the continent’s industrial development, and in particular to strengthening its processing industry. The development of Africa’s economic potential will naturally be accompanied by growth in the purchasing power of its populations, market growth and new opportunities for Canadian exporters and investors.
It’s up to Canada to act to help transform this potential into opportunities, and to proactively engage in the implementation of a new win-win multidimensional strategic partnership model, in line with the new international context that advocates the rapprochement of value chains in terms of neighbourhood and the diversification of economic and commercial partners. Africa has long taken a back seat, there is still time for Canada to take its rightful place, because Canadian interests justify it. How should we proceed? Let’s start by communicating more and highlighting opportunities on both sides of the Atlantic. Let’s develop more exchange corridors for human and physical resources.
My country — Morocco — knows that Africa can be trusted. Its policy and cooperation with Africa make it, through the foresight of His Majesty King Mohammed VI, the leading investor in West Africa and second in all of Africa, after South Africa. Together with other African countries, Morocco has launched major socio-economic development projects, such as the Atlantic Africa Initiative, made up of 23 African countries on the Atlantic coast; and the Royal Atlantic Initiative, aimed at opening up the Sahel countries to promote their development and stability by giving them direct access to the Atlantic Ocean. Given that Canada intends to appoint a special envoy for the Sahel, it is welcome to collaborate on this bold undertaking and support it with Canadian investment and expertise.
The other major project is the construction of the Nigeria-Morocco gas pipeline which, by crossing and including 13 countries on the African Atlantic coast, will promote regional and African integration, as advocated by the African Continental Free Trade Area. It will secure access to energy and offer enormous opportunities for start-ups, young Africans and the Sahel states. While Africa expects much from Canada, it also has much to offer.
The Chair: Thank you very much, Your Excellency.
[English]
We have been joined by Senator Mohammad Al Zaibak of Ontario, Senator Charles Adler of Manitoba and, just now, by Senator Andrew Cardozo of Ontario. Welcome.
[Translation]
I now invite His Excellency Prosper Higiro, High Commissioner of the High Commission of Rwanda in Canada, to address the committee.
His Excellency Prosper Higiro, High Commissioner, High Commission of Rwanda in Canada, as an individual: Thank you, Mr. Chair, honourable members of the committee and dear colleagues, for this opportunity to address you today to discuss the various ways in which we can work together to strengthen relations between Africa and Canada.
Canada is an important partner for Africa, and has been for decades. For example, Rwanda and Canada established diplomatic relations in 1963, just one year after we achieved independence. The Canadian Embassy in Kigali became a High Commission, and Canada’s High Commissioner to Rwanda has lived in Kigali since early 2024. Similarly, across the continent, Canada has been present and active, and the relationship between Africa and Canada today is satisfactory, I would say.
Africa is represented by 27 resident missions, while Canada has nearly thirty embassies in Africa. We are meeting today in the wake of the visit of the Chairman of the African Union Commission for the Canada-Africa High-Level Dialogue, which saw the emergence of a commitment to strengthen relations between Africa and Canada. We also look forward to the release of the Canada-Africa strategy.
Since the 1960s, Canada has enjoyed significant cooperation with the continent. In Rwanda, for example, the very first University of Rwanda, which I myself attended in the early 1980s, was established with Canadian support in October 1963. Canada’s involvement in Rwanda has spanned other areas. We worked together to promote environmental protection, and our two countries are members of the High Ambition Coalition to End Plastic Pollution. We have worked together to promote peace and security. Canada participated in the United Nations peacekeeping mission in Rwanda from 1993 to 1995, even though the mission was unable to prevent or stop the genocide against the Tutsis. However, our experience with Rwanda has enabled us to work with Canada to introduce the important notion of the responsibility to protect into UN peacekeeping missions. We also collaborate in other areas, such as education, technological innovation and others.
Mr. Chair, Global Affairs Canada recently reported that merchandise trade between Africa and Canada has reached $16 billion, a remarkable two-thirds increase in just five years.
However, this trade volume remains well below that of other G7 countries when it comes to trade partnerships with Africa. That gap can be closed by pursuing a consistent and systematic commitment to trade and investment.
Canada’s investment profile on the continent is primarily in the mining sector, but Africa is poised to become the world’s largest trading bloc. Africa has adopted a strategic framework called Agenda 2063 and, guided by this framework, African countries have already created the African Continental Free Trade Area (AfCFTA). Africa and Canada are already working together to take full advantage of the AfCFTA, and to achieve common goals under Agenda 2063. Now is the time to be ambitious, devote more resources and implement concrete actions. The fight against poverty, education, health, improved infrastructure, energy, innovation, peace, security, trade and investment must be at the heart of any win-win cooperation, with wealth creation through the added value of decent jobs — especially for young people and women — a central concern.
Rwanda has long believed that African integration is a strategic imperative. Rwanda believes that African integration offers win-win opportunities. For this reason, we have committed in our own strategic frameworks — notably Vision 2050, the country’s second-generation transformation strategy — to taking full advantage of an increasingly integrated African economy. We have also established an open visa policy to facilitate the recirculation of people and investors. Rwanda is also a leader in business facilitation. Everything we do in Rwanda is aimed at promoting investment not only in Rwanda, but with a view to the entire African market.
Canada has useful resources and expertise for the continent, which is also becoming increasingly profitable and attractive as an investment destination. To maximize these opportunities, Canada can continue to facilitate bilateral engagements, including high-level visits and exchanges between private sector stakeholders. To date, Canada has only five visa-issuing centres on the continent, which limits the number of opportunities for high-level visits as well as exchanges between the private, academic and other sectors.
We need to examine, with a view to eliminating, all barriers that impede the flow of capital and investment between Africa and Canada, including double taxation, real or perceived business risk, etc.
To conclude, great opportunities lie ahead. Africa has never been more attractive as an investment destination, and Canada’s commitment has never been more in demand. We must strengthen our historic ties with a new chapter focused on win-win trade and investment, and stronger people-to-people ties. These opportunities will bring us closer to that long-term vision. Thank you very much.
The Chair: Thank you very much, Your Excellency.
[English]
Now we will go to His Excellency Ngole Philip Ngwese, High Commissioner of Cameroon.
I wish to acknowledge that Senator Mary Robinson of Prince Edward Island has joined us. Senator, I did talk you up earlier as a new member of our steering committee before you arrived.
His Excellency Ngole Philip Ngwese, High Commissioner, High Commission of Cameroon in Canada, as an individual: Thank you, honourable senators, for giving me the floor. I wish to state outright that from an African perspective, three facts are outstanding about Canada: its image, which has never been marred by atrocities linked to colonization, slavery and apartheid; its advocacy for justice and peace as key drivers of international relations; and its outreach and humanitarian policy.
Hence, seeking our views in the ongoing discourse on Canada’s engagement in Africa is pregnant with meaning. By so doing, things are clearly put into context.
[Translation]
Based on these premises, we can expect a proactive and engaged Canadian policy in Africa.
Africa’s complexity and diversity make it known as an inexhaustible reservoir of natural resources and a prolific supplier of raw materials. Yet its young people, whose financial circumstances vary, are emigrating en masse to the Western world in search of hypothetical happiness.
The culprits — poverty, inequality and social injustice — are often overestimated. However, they must be decisively addressed at their source.
This engagement and proactive approach means that Canada must align its African policy with the African Union’s Agenda 2063. It must prioritize mutually beneficial partnerships focused on structuring projects that speed up development, generate ripple effects across all economic sectors and create the conditions for sustainable and sustained growth.
These include “partnerships focused on the local processing of the continent’s raw materials” and “partnerships focused on the development of transportation, energy and communications infrastructure.”
These two types of partnership seek to create value, wealth and jobs on the continent. As a result, the proportion of young people tempted to emigrate will gradually decline. Canada, for its part, can defuse what some of its whistle-blowers call the “demographic bomb.”
Cooperation with civil society, a key aspect of Canada’s invaluable engagement, undoubtedly has its merits. However, it should be noted that this type of cooperation leaves little room for the necessary visibility of the actions carried out. This cooperation occurs outside the mechanisms of the chain of coordination, supervision and assessment of public policies. Lastly, in terms of trade, we advocate for fair trade.
[English]
The case of trade relations between Canada and Cameroon is eloquent. A report published recently states that in 2021, Canadian exports to Cameroon stood at C$87 million, while Cameroon, with much to offer, accounted for only C$11.8 million as value of exports to the Canadian market. The principle of fair and equitable trade calls for restrictions and barriers to be lifted to open Canadian markets to our goods that meet the required standards.
The entry into force of the agreement signed in 2016 between our two countries in view of promoting and protecting foreign investments will certainly pave the way and open a new page in our cooperation, especially as current events — yes, current events — seem to be urging Canada to further diversify its partnerships.
[Translation]
Thank you for your attention.
The Chair: Thank you, Your Excellency.
[English]
His Excellency Rieaz “Moe” Shaik, High Commissioner of South Africa, you have the floor, sir.
His Excellency Rieaz “Moe” Shaik, High Commissioner, High Commission of South Africa in Canada, as an individual: Thank you, chair. I cannot tell you how many times I have been confused with Senator Cardozo in many diplomatic occasions, with people running up to me saying, “Senator Cardozo.” So, Senator Cardozo, it is very nice to meet you.
The Chair: You can come in and vote some time, too, if you want.
Mr. Shaik: Chair, Senator Boehm, thank you for the opportunity to address this august Senate committee on the important matter of Canada’s interests and engagement in Africa.
On behalf of the South African government, I thank Canada for all it has done for us and in the service of the African continent.
Every discussion on the hopes, dreams and prosperity of the African continent must proceed from a deep understanding of the fault lines imposed on Africa by centuries of slavery and colonialism. The legacy of slavery and colonialism has shaped, still shapes and will continue to shape the lived reality of African life across all dimensions. Accordingly, in seeking to create a better future for both Canada and Africa, we must be mindful not to perpetuate the fault lines of the past.
Canada has in Africa enormous goodwill as a trusted partner. Often I lament the lack of Canada’s appreciation of its own endowment in Africa. I submit that for Canada to achieve transformative success in Africa, the first and most important step is to ensure that the Africa branch of Global Affairs Canada in its diplomatic, trade and development form has the requisite resources, both human and financial, to do so. I implore you to be bold, courageous and relentless in this pursuit.
I read the recently published House of Commons report entitled A New Era of Partnerships: Canada’s Engagement with Africa, containing its 27 important recommendations. While I support these recommendations, I am of the view that further directed focus could be incorporated into the partnership, especially on matters of trade and investment.
In this regard, allow me to highlight some of the report’s findings, facts and trends: First, Canada has no free or preferential trade agreement with any country in Africa; second, Africa’s exports to Canada are twice the amount and value of what Africa imports from Canada; and three, for every dollar of Canadian development aid and assistance that flows into Africa, two and a half times that value flows back into Canada.
Canada imports from Africa 4.5% of what China imports from Africa, 14% of U.S. imports and a third of what Russia imports. All of these statistics speak to the asymmetrical nature of the relationship between Canada and Africa. Surely, we can all agree that it is within our agency to change this asymmetry for the better.
A key and fundamental step in the direction of that change is that Canada should treat Africa as it does other important regions of the world. Equitable treatment of each other is the building block of mutual beneficial and respectful relationships.
Specifically, I submit the following for your urgent consideration: First, Canada should develop and implement a Canadian version of the United States’ African Growth and Opportunity Act that would seek to assist the economies of Africa and to improve economic relations between Canada and Africa.
Second, Canada should mandate its five Global Innovation Clusters to seek dynamic partnerships with counterparts in the African region. The opportunities arising from these interactions will be of enormous mutual benefit that will fundamentally transform Canadian-African engagement.
Third, Canada should also incentivize its development finance institutions with at-scale concessional capital such to empower Canadian development finance institutions to develop the necessary credit enhancement and de-risking financial instruments that will develop the African trade and investment market.
Lastly, in light of the ongoing and deepening crisis in the Middle East, I take this opportunity to add my personal voice to those of all other peace-loving people the world over in calling on Canada to recognize the State of Palestine. The two-state solution remains the only viable way to peace in that troubled region of the world.
Thank you.
The Chair: Thank you very much, high commissioner.
I have two technical announcements. I forgot to mention at the beginning that I would like everyone present to make sure their devices are muted in terms of notifications so we don’t get distracted. Also, for our two guest senators, you will be offered an opportunity to ask questions, but it will be at the end, as is the usual practice in this committee. We have a one-and-a-half-hour slot for this panel, so we will finish at about 5:45 p.m., and that, I hope, will allow for both good questions and even better answers.
Colleagues, as usual, you will have four minutes per question and answer from our witnesses, so please keep your questions concise and short on preamble. I would also encourage our distinguished witnesses to keep their answers concise.
Senator MacDonald: Welcome to our distinguished guests here today. This past October, this committee heard from Professor David Black from the Department of Political Science at Dalhousie University that Canada’s policy approach to Africa over these past several decades has been “consistently inconsistent.”
I have two questions. First, are there areas where this inconsistency has caused tangible setbacks or missed opportunities in bilateral or multilateral relations? Second, are there successful models or approaches Canada could adopt to better align its policies with the needs of African nations?
The Chair: To whom are you directing the question?
Senator MacDonald: To whoever wants to speak to it.
Mr. Shaik: In South Africa, because we deem Africa to be a very important region, we have in our foreign policy set the ambitious goal of having an embassy in every country in Africa. Now, that is 53 or maybe 54 countries. No one is expecting Canada to do that, but having people on the ground either on a cluster basis or on a group basis will be the first and most important thing. This is why I have argued that you should increase the resources that you put into your Africa branch in Global Affairs Canada. Africa is very fast moving, and it requires deep knowledge, which you can only get from your missions on the ground that will be able to inform the kind of approaches that will develop, especially in regard to trade and finance.
You are absolutely missing on the development finance institution side. You had the United States under President Obama announce the Power Africa initiative. You need something of that bold scale to contribute. You could say “Rail Africa” and then dedicate yourself to building the railways in Africa through project finance that will give returns to Canada — it’s not a freebie. That is the kind of approach you need to take. You need to be focused, and you need to put your resources into it. That will fundamentally transform the nature of the relationship.
[Translation]
Mr. Higiro: I’ll pick up on what my colleague just said. I think that Canada once had a much stronger presence in Africa than it does today, both in terms of embassies and countries covered and in terms of cooperation, especially when CIDA was still running.
In recent years, I believe that there has been some form of withdrawal. The reason for this withdrawal isn’t explained. I wanted to talk about this situation first.
Second, from a trade and investment standpoint, Canada seems much more interested in certain markets, especially the more traditional markets. The African market is generally considered quite risky. At a political level, we should be finding solutions or at least showing the way to the private sector and investors. However, there have been no big-shock initiatives or innovative ideas at this level that would help the private sector, and Canadian banks in particular, set up shop on the African continent and even—
The Chair: Thank you, Your Excellency. Your time is up.
[English]
Senator Ravalia: Thank you once again for being here. My question is for His Excellency Rieaz Shaik. As South Africa assumes its historic G20 presidency and the sherpa and finance deputies meetings continue this week, how is progress being made so far in advancing a progressive, Africa-centric and development-oriented agenda under the themes of solidarity, equality and sustainability?
Mr. Shaik: That’s what you call an “ouch” question because I was trying to follow up on the sherpa discussions that were taking place. You’re right; it is happening this week. I think Canada is represented by Deputy Minister David Morrison, I hope.
One of the issues that is arising is the whole question of the debt crisis that, in fact, all countries are going through — many countries both in the developed and in developing countries. That affects Africa tremendously. There will be a special commission in regard to financing and how to manage debt, how to manage capital and the cost of capital that is coming, particularly, to Africa. Our presidency thinks that is one of the most important issues. I would agree with that because the debt crisis is looming, and all you need is one push before we actually enter into another financial crisis. I think it’s very important we look at the cost of capital commission. That would be one big take away.
The second, of course, is going to be the energy transition, how to meet the climate change demands and the kinds of financing instruments that need to happen. You note, and I would add my own voice to that, that the recent round of discussion on climate financing was not as successful as the world had hoped, and I think that will also be in focus. More importantly, I’m hoping that the G20 discussions — which will be a kind of linkage between Canada’s G7 and South Africa’s G20 — would be the issue of whether we could save the multilateral order that seems to be very threatened at this point in time, with almost daily breakdown of international law. I’m hoping that this will also be a focus of attention. Thank you.
Senator Ravalia: To what extent do you feel that some of the international flashpoints — you’ve referenced Palestine and the two-state solution — will also be on the agenda of the G20 meetings?
Mr. Shaik: South Africa could certainly have that as an issue. It is an important issue not only for South Africa but for what we are predicting. If things are left at the moment, we may well be looking at a breakdown of the United Nations. That is not in the interest of any citizen of the world.
We are very concerned about what is happening in the Middle East because what is happening in the Middle East, stripped of all the preferences and biases, is the daily breakdown of the international order. This impunity that we see in the breakdown of the international order will have drastic consequences for order as we know it. More importantly, it will propel the planet into what we call the “polycrisis,” where every crisis is going to implement or affect every other crisis.
Therefore, the multilateral forum or a recommitment to the multilateral order — and let me just state here that I made this protocol for my government, and I am not a believer in the multipolar world; I’m a believer in a multilateral world. I think the more there are of us who start speaking about a multilateral world and make a commitment to a multilateral world, we will at least have the cooperation to address many of the features of the polycrisis.
The Chair: Thank you very much, high commissioner. We’re out of time. The issues you raise are very important. I suspect we’ll come back to them in other questions.
Senator M. Deacon: Thank you for being here. We haven’t had a chance to travel, so your insights on the ground are greatly appreciated. I also appreciate the comments around multipolar versus multilateral. I’m really glad those words were said today.
There are a couple of things I’ve been thinking about. Of course, in Canada, we had an Africa strategy that has been presented. It took a little while to get there; maybe it took too long for some, but it’s important that we have something there now. As we listen to witnesses and as I heard from business folks a few years ago, I keep thinking about having a strategy and the sheer size and composition of Africa and how coherent an African strategy could possibly hope to be.
When we look at the distance between Rabat and Cape Town, it’s twice the distance between Ottawa and Caracas. Your countries are equally distinct. There are uniquenesses. Are there any nuances that you find Canada might be missing when it comes to working with African countries one-on-one, with their individual histories and cultures, or can this be accomplished in a coherent way? I would like to hear from everyone, in as much time as we have. Thank you so much.
Mr. Ngwese: Let me share a few views on that particular point. For some time, I think, we have had the feeling that Africa is being considered as a country, but Africa is a continent of 54 countries as complex and diversified as you can imagine, culturally speaking, politically speaking and economically speaking. It’s very difficult to deal with Africa as a global issue.
That is why I took upon myself in my preliminary remarks to ask: If we have to think of getting Africa out of poverty or mess, what are the types of projects we have to engage in? What should be the priorities if we are looking at Africa globally? We talked about NEPAD; now we are talking about Agenda 2063. What are those cross-cutting priorities that are capable of igniting true and durable development in Africa?
You see very well that if we don’t address such issues, we may be missing the point. You cannot be talking about developing a free trade area where there are no communications and where we are lacking the basic infrastructure in Africa. My colleague was talking about building railways and so on and so forth. Yes, you get to Africa, and countries are generally not linked up.
What we really need in order to avoid solutions that the French call les expédients — solutions that, though they may be solutions, they may not be able to address the real issues — is to see and identify those main projects which cut across and which can ignite other initiatives. I think, looking at it from that perspective, we can address Africa globally.
Then you enter into the specifics of the countries, as you are doing. I know Canada is doing a lot in some countries through CIDA, the Canadian International Development Agency, in some countries. Many things have been done through NGOs, though they are not visible.
What can Canada do to impact the development of Africa? Priorities need to be determined at the level of infrastructure, processing our raw materials in Africa, and not exporting raw materials to Europe and America.
The Chair: High commissioner, I am sorry. I have to intervene.
Senator Deacon, I know you had the best intentions to have everyone speak on this point. It can be picked up, but we are out of time on that segment.
Senator M. Deacon: Thank you.
[Translation]
Senator Gerba: I want to thank Their Excellencies again for being here. Although we haven’t travelled to Africa, we have the continent represented from north to south. It’s greatly appreciated. I have a number of questions, Mr. Chair. As always, I’m counting on you to give me a bit more time. My first question is for the dean of the diplomatic corps, Her Excellency Ambassador Otmani.
In your opening remarks, you referred to three major structuring projects launched by Morocco for the African continent, in cooperation with other African countries. I know that Morocco strongly promotes south-south cooperation. Can you elaborate on these projects? Which G7 or G20 countries are working with you on these projects and what could Canada do? Could Canada get involved?
Ms. Otmani: Thank you for the question, Senator Gerba. I referred to three major projects for Morocco. As you said, Morocco strongly believes in south-south cooperation and in Africa. That’s why we have a department of foreign affairs and African cooperation. It says it all.
For over 25 years, Morocco has been deeply engaged in Africa and has believed that Africa can help Africa, provided that Africa also trusts itself. We need to build this mutual trust to move forward. Canada is obviously interested in the three projects that I referred to because both of our countries face the Atlantic. This matters. Canada, the United States and all the other South American countries play a part. However, Canada is involved because it wants to work in Africa. I think that these are three key projects involving the African Atlantic coast and many countries. Canada can do a great deal in this area.
We talked about the Sahel region. You know that Morocco boldly proposed an opening up of the Sahel countries. We all know that the Sahel countries — Chad, Niger, Burkina Faso and Mali — are facing challenges, instability and insecurity. We’re telling these countries that we want to work with them, help them open up and give them road, airport, maritime and logistics infrastructure. Canada can invest in these projects. We need the necessary investments to help the Sahel countries, to stabilize this area and to turn it into a prosperous development area. We keep saying this. We want investment and we want Canada to make massive investments in Africa. Trade is all well and good. However, investment is even better. The investor gets twice as much back, which benefits both the investor and the recipient.
When we have such major projects involving so many countries... The first project involves 23 countries. The gas pipeline from Nigeria to Morocco involves 13 countries. The Sahel countries know the importance of making this area secure. The doors are really open for Canada. Come on over. There’s a great deal to do in Africa, if you want to. Canada must want to. That’s our goal as African ambassadors. We want to convince Canada to take the plunge and invest in Africa where it counts, especially in the vital processing industries. My colleagues talked about this. Everything produced in Africa is exported given the lack of local processing industries. I’m thinking in particular of textiles. The lack of a processing industry means that 90% of crops are exported in their raw form. Cocoa is a $100 billion industry. Africa has only 6% of this amount. It’s time to invest in processing industries to help Africa flourish.
The Chair: Sorry, Your Excellency. Thank you. Your message is quite clear.
[English]
Senator Coyle: This has been rich and helpful to us. Every individual’s testimony is thought-provoking for us. It will help influence our report.
I have many questions. This question is for His Excellency Shaik of South Africa. It is nice to see you again. I met you when you were brand new in the country.
Mr. Shaik: Yes, thank you.
Senator Coyle: Nice to see you. I never confuse you with our colleague, though.
You said many interesting things, as have your colleagues at the table. You mentioned Canada’s superclusters — that really intrigues me — and establishing partnerships. You mean the Global Innovation Clusters, the oceans, AI, protein, digital technology, advanced manufacturing, et cetera. Okay. I’m intrigued by this because we are looking at areas that Canada sees as strengths and opportunities in terms of the future of our economy, as well as global partnerships.
How would you see these types of partnerships working with countries on the African continent? What exactly do you mean? Could you unpack that in more detail for us?
Mr. Shaik: Thank you, senator.
Some of us have had the honour of visiting at least one or two of these superclusters. My team has visited Canada’s Ocean Supercluster in St. John’s. I have had the honour of visiting the protein industries supercluster in Saskatchewan.
The supercluster, in the way it is designed here, brings together expertise, capital and the private sector. They find the synergies in terms of what is possible and how to pilot that which is possible to reach scale. For example, we discovered the magic of why Saskatchewan is a province known for fuel, food and fertilizer. That is the magic of potash. Potash has fundamentally transformed Canada as a net food exporter.
What can we learn from that? Unfortunately, I looked at the potash distribution in Africa. We don’t have much of it. It is the way the earth’s fault lines came up. We got gold and diamonds, and you got potash. It is working out tremendously in your advantage.
But we can learn from the protein industry. If we want to save the planet, we all have to eat less meat. If you are going to eat less meat, you have to move to plant-based protein. Canada is ahead of the curve in terms of plant-based proteins. We can learn from that and partner in that. That is one example.
If you take the oceans, again, the notion you are going to have fish in the seas — because of climate change, the acidity of the oceans and overfishing, you are going to have to farm fish on land. Again, in St. John’s, the ocean cluster is making an enormous number of breakthroughs not only in fishing but in, say, drone technology that can monitor illegal fishing, which is what we have both on the Indian Ocean and on the Atlantic side. Again, we could partner with that.
Because we are ocean-bound, as you are, partnerships between these institutions, these Global Innovation Clusters — let me tell you; please do not stop those clusters. They are going to lead to Canada’s breakthrough into the new stuff. That is what we are looking for. We are looking for the future and taking endowments at scale so that we could address our inequality, poverty and underdevelopment.
The Chair: Thank you, high commissioner.
Senator Al Zaibak: Thank you, Your Excellencies, for being here and for sharing your perspectives with us today.
Many of my questions, Mr. Chair, have already been answered. I have more, but I would like to yield my time to Senator Deacon so she can continue her intervention if possible.
The Chair: The holiday season is approaching.
Senator M. Deacon: You are very kind. Thank you for that.
We are hearing different parts of my question in different answers to my colleagues also, but let’s continue to look at the concept of this national strategy for Africa. Can it be accomplished in a coherent and overarching way based on the nuances across 54 countries?
If you don’t mind, we can continue that question with you. Do you have any thoughts that you would like to share on that question?
[Translation]
Ms. Otmani: Could you ask the question again?
[English]
Senator M. Deacon: It is looking at the concerns of us having and talking about an Africa strategy when there are many uniquenesses in 54 countries. We have what we are calling an Africa strategy or Africa engagement. Can we do that well and keep it coherent and tight, knowing the differences?
[Translation]
Ms. Otmani: Yes, it’s important to work with Africa as a whole. However, it’s also vital to work with individual countries. To get to know Africa well and to engage in a strategy, I think that you must know the strengths and weaknesses of each country and take action based on these strengths and weaknesses.
We’re working on a reciprocal investment protection agreement. I’ve been here for six years and I still haven’t managed to reach an agreement with Canada. The minor details also require action. If this type of agreement doesn’t exist, Canada can’t come and invest in my country. The overall perception is also somewhat negative. People feel that, by investing in Africa, the investment isn’t secure.
The overall negative perceptions of Africa held by business people in Canada and around the world need to be addressed. Yet Africa is in the midst of a major transformation and currently has every chance of being heard, supported and backed in all its efforts. This is key. I think that this must be done now. My colleague said that Africa was on its way to becoming a power. Canada mustn’t wait for that time. It must start now. African countries must remember that Canada helped them launch at this specific and crucial time.
[English]
Senator M. Deacon: Thank you so much.
[Translation]
Mr. Higiro: Thank you. I think that Canada’s strategy for Africa should be aligned with Africa’s Agenda 2063. This joint agenda covers all African countries that agreed on a minimum number of programs. It’s also important to remain flexible and pragmatic. I imagine that, if an individual or if Canada wants to work in agriculture, for example, the individual or Canada can work with countries that have significant potential. Canada can start working with much more advanced countries in the field of new technologies, but with a comprehensive vision of a continent in the process of integrating and becoming a common market.
[English]
The Chair: Thank you very much. That 30 seconds became a minute and a half because I realized it is completely unfair to ask an envoy from another country to explain something in 30 seconds. Having been there myself, I know what it is like.
Senator Woo: I would like to ask His Excellency Shaik to elaborate on his observation that the multilateral system is under threat, particularly the UN system. I would like to understand Africa’s role, maybe South Africa in particular, in trying to protect the multilateral system and uphold the international rule of law.
These are talking points that you usually hear from Canadian diplomats. I sense there are countries in the Global South, perhaps many countries in Africa, that feel that Western countries, maybe Canada as well, are partly responsible for the disruption to the international multilateral order. It may be difficult for you to speak about it very explicitly, but I would like to hear your thoughts on what Canada can do to work with Africa to uphold multilateralism and the international rule of law on specific issues.
Mr. Shaik: Thank you, Senator Woo.
First, there is a term we should consider not using, and that is “rules-based international order.” We should not use that term, because no one knows who determines the rules and whose order we are talking about. The term that we know, and I am glad you used it, is the “international rule of law.”
Now, the international rule of law is what must govern all of us, both in our domestic governance and in our foreign policy approaches. When we violate that rule of law, we must be held accountable by the instruments that we have put in place collectively to hold us accountable and to stop impunity.
I can stop my discussion there. Just on that basis, you can see, going way back to when somebody said they had evidence of weapons of mass destruction, and that led to an invasion, that was the beginning of the breakdown of the international rule of law and the beginning of the rules-based international order.
We have seen it in Libya because under the responsibility to protect — by all means necessary — we bombed an African country, and it has never recovered from that destruction. Now we are seeing it happening in other places of the world. We are seeing the right to defend ourselves becoming the right to invade other countries, which is unacceptable under the rule of law.
But we are in a unique moment, and that moment must mean that we will pause, reflect on how bad humanity has become to one another and re-energize that humanity and rebuild the multilateral systems. I think it is important because if we fail to do that, then other great global powers will seek to do that which they see other people doing and other people allowed to do and getting away with it. Then, at the end of the day, we are going to live in a world in which the strongest govern, and the rest of us follow.
[Translation]
Mr. Ngwese: I would just like to add to my colleague’s response. For some time, Africa has been pushing for a reform of the United Nations system, in particular the United Nations Security Council. As you know, this council is made up as it is and it works as it works, with the results that we all see and deplore.
What can Canada do? Canada is a privileged partner for us. Canada can support this request and see it through. As my colleague said earlier, no one wants to see the international system governed by the United Nations collapse.
[English]
The Chair: Thank you. I will use my position as chair to stimulate discussion, since you have all hit some of the nostalgia buttons for me, in particular High Commissioner Shaik on the rules-based international order, which was a tremendous point of contention at the G7 summit in Charlevoix with the Americans, who had established the rules-based international order however you define it. I appreciate your precision there. On the outreach day — meaning the extended summit — three of your leaders were present for a discussion on water-based plastic pollution, which went fairly well, but we could not get immediate G7 coverage.
It seems to me that, for all of these summit exercises, there is always something inherited from the previous host. There are a few themes that continue over various summits. One has been the theme of Africa. On the G7 side, we’re inheriting a certain amount that the Italians had done during their presidency. As South Africa, you will inherit some from Brazil, the previous G20 presidency. In our country, we have one sherpa at the moment responsible for G7 and G20, Cindy Termorshuizen, and I suspect she is attending the G20 sherpa meeting.
My question is this: Can crosswalks be developed early on between the two agendas, recognizing that the G20 is a larger animal with finance ministers there? You mentioned development financing as an issue. If this collaboration can come earlier, can we be looking for some sort of a special statement or strategy amongst the countries on Africa? Sorry, that was a long question. I broke my rule.
Mr. Shaik: The short answer, chair, is yes and yes. I think the crosswalks should be developed. Given South Africa’s particular affinity for Canada and Canada’s particular history in South Africa, we owe much of our democracy to all of the good work done by the IDRC and Canadian diplomacy in South Africa, which we are incredibly mindful of. I think that model can still be used, together with the kind of research that needs to go into finding this crosswalk, researching the necessary data linkages that need to take place, which can inform the leadership of both the G7 and the G20 about continuity.
It is a very unique relationship that may not happen again in the world for a long time. We should not miss that opportunity to build precisely and exactly what you say. On my side, we are already engaging with my leadership back home that we must seek this partnership now — not a year from now. Because it will carry many of the challenges we have been discussing for the next decade.
The Chair: Thank you, high commissioner. That is exactly what I wanted to hear. I am grateful.
Senator Cardozo: Thank you, heads of mission, for being here. Each of you represent really important countries in Africa. I also think each of you is very accomplished and well respected as head of mission in Ottawa. It is an honour to have you here today.
I wish to ask you about Russia and China in Africa. Could each of you tell us a little bit about them? My concern is that there is a sense amongst some that they are galloping ahead in the way they are moving into African countries, and we are not, in terms of building relationships and helping in building the countries. Could I ask you each to take 45 seconds for a quick word from each of you on that and on what you are seeing?
[Translation]
Ms. Otmani: I think that this raises a key and sensitive issue when we talk about what “must be done in Africa.” That’s exactly why we want Canada to come. If Canada doesn’t come to Africa and take its rightful place, other countries and powers will step in. That’s only natural, whether it’s Russia or China.
When China comes to Africa, it doesn’t make a fuss about anything. It comes, sees what it can do and takes action. It doesn’t trouble itself about anything or get involved in internal affairs or human rights issues. It’s only natural that China should come with its own conditions and skills.
I think that, when a gap appears, others fill it. Our desire and the reason for our plea is that we want Canada to come and take its rightful place. Canada has expertise and a good reputation in Africa. However, it isn’t there. That’s a shame. You can see why other powers come to do business in Africa, including China, Russia and other countries.
Senator Cardozo: Thank you.
Mr. Higiro: Thank you, senator.
I believe that relations between Africa and China and Russia are above all bilateral. A continental dimension remains, but it’s bilateral and based on the principles of international relations that we all know, in particular respect for international law.
In terms of economic trade relations, I think that it depends on the negotiations or the interests of the states or the continent. Depending on the offer made by each continent or nation to its partners, I think that each one must make the appropriate political or diplomatic decision or move.
When it comes to peace, security and other issues, I believe that most African states look more to the principles that guide the United Nations. I believe that African states take their positions in relation to these principles.
Thank you.
[English]
The Chair: I am sorry, Senator Cardozo, time has run out.
I wish to acknowledge that Senator Harder of Ontario has joined us.
Senator Al Zaibak: My question relates to peacebuilding and security cooperation. If I have time, I will have another question about cultural and people-to-people ties later.
Canada, as we all know, has played a leadership role in supporting peacebuilding and security efforts in Africa. Given ongoing challenges in certain regions, however, there is a need for deeper international collaboration. In your view, how can Canada effectively contribute to peacebuilding and regional stability efforts in your respective countries and across Africa?
Mr. Shaik: This is a very interesting question. I can see how Canada gets itself in trouble regarding what it should do. I think you have to work with the African Union. You have to work with the known regional organizations: the Southern African Development Community, or SADC; the Arab Maghreb Union, the East African Community.
If you work in a regional way, if you look at many of the conflicts in Africa, the African solution to that problem is to ensure that the regional leadership in the region in which that problem is occurring must deal with the matter. For example, the conflict in Mozambique right now as we speak will be tackled by SADC. If there is any assistance that Canada wants to offer, please do so via SADC and make sure it is done on a regional basis rather than a country-to-country basis.
I know there is always a preference to work on a country-to-country basis. But given Africa and its dynamics, it’s best done through a region, and in particular through the African Union, the peace and security commisioners we have there.
Mr. Higiro: On this issue, what I want to add is effectively most of the conflicts are, of course, sometimes internal, but mostly they involve different countries. For that, in many cases, there is a need for a regional solution. In Africa, that is what countries are doing.
For me, for Canada to contribute, first, it has to understand the root causes of those conflicts because some of them are deep and have been there for a long time. To ensure that Canada gives the right advice, it’s important to understand the problem, the cause and, most likely, to go on the ground and try to talk to people, different stakeholders, and try to have some influence but based on good evidence and good information.
The Chair: Thank you.
Senator Ravalia: If I could go back to Senator Cardozo’s initial question, I’ll direct my question first to His Excellency Ngole Ngwese.
Much has been said about China creating a “debt-trap diplomacy.” To what extent has China’s Belt and Road Initiative impacted your country and, if so, has it been positive, or have there been dimensions of it that have left you concerned?
Mr. Ngwese: Thank you for that question, honourable senator.
[Translation]
For some time, China has been gaining a strong foothold in Africa, in a number of African countries. You saw that China is the leading financial backer of African countries. China is often one of the few countries that doesn’t attach many strings or conditions to its involvement in Africa. It doesn’t demand a specific human rights reform in a particular institution, for example. China comes to do business with Africans and we Africans, in my country, do business with China.
As far as I know, economic cooperation between China and Cameroon is quite productive and doesn’t generate any complaints. China has helped Cameroon develop some infrastructure and it continues to do so. If you have been following the news, two or three days ago, Cameroon’s national assembly building was inaugurated. It was built by China. The Yaoundé conference centre was built by China. China is building dams. Granted, this work isn’t done for free and it involves mutual interests. China knows what it takes from us and we know what we take from China. That’s why I was encouraging you earlier. Canada mustn’t be shy about taking action. A colleague spoke of a gap. Where a gap appears, someone else fills it. We’re talking about international relations. It’s primarily about interests.
In short, we’re completely comfortable with Chinese cooperation, which is almost never tied to conditionalities that make us uncomfortable. That’s why, in my opening remarks, you heard me talk about Canada’s image in Africa. Based on this image, we expect Canada to come and gain a foothold in our countries and do business with us. We aren’t complaining about our work with China.
Senator Gerba: My next question is for all Their Excellencies. Canada’s Africa strategy will be made public shortly. We already know the main points. Our Senate study focuses on the long term. The report will certainly come out before the G7 summit, which we’ll be hosting.
You spoke about different sectors and different opportunities. You identified a few approaches, such as the United States with its African power and China, which is building dams and all types of infrastructure. Given that Canada can’t be all over the map, if you had a structuring and cross-cutting sector where Canada should or could invest in Africa and where it could win, since this involves a win-win partnership, what recommendation would you make?
Mr. Ngwese: If I may add something, Mr. Chair.
Senator, I think when we look at Africa as a whole and want to see the continent flourish, I think that, on the ground, the real problems Africa is facing at the moment are communication challenges. We need communication infrastructure. It’s rare to find two or three African countries connected by road. How can economies take off in that context? We need to start thinking about irrigating the African continent with communication, transport and energy infrastructure. We’ve talked about setting up processing industries. Processing cannot take place without a constant, reliable source of energy.
That means transportation, communications and energy. For me, it’s structural. In my opinion, projects that fall into this category can help pull Africa out of its slump. Thank you very much.
Ms. Otmani: I’d turn to the processing industries, because there are sectors that are priorities for both Africa and Canada. I’m thinking, for example, of the agri-food, electronics and automotive sectors. Nowadays, we’re talking more and more about electric batteries. We have the raw materials. Canada should be able to help us transform those raw materials into batteries and components for electric vehicles, for example.
Consequently, we have the raw materials, but we need local processing industries, and Canada can help us with that.
Senator Gerba: Thank you.
Mr. Higiro: Thank you. I thought about strengthening education in Africa.
I believe Canada has a very important comparative advantage in the university sector, in research and innovation, but above all in vocational training.
I believe that qualified professionals are needed in Africa, and that there are opportunities for partnerships with high schools and universities in Africa. However, for that to happen, pragmatic and proactive initiatives need to be supported by Canada and governments in Africa. I think it could be very promising.
The second thing is to encourage the presence of Canadian banks in Africa to promote trade between Canada and Africa.
Senator Gerba: Thank you.
[English]
Senator Coyle: You can take a few seconds to answer that, and then I’ll ask my question, Mr. Shaik.
Mr. Shaik: You have $1.2 trillion sitting in your pension funds with nowhere to go. It’s either going to go back to the U.S. — it’s coming out of China; it’s not going to go to India — or Africa could be the place it could go to.
Take your development finance institutions — FinDev, EDC — have a meeting with them and ensure that they have all the necessary concessional capital to develop the instruments to de-risk Africa. I’m speaking as such because I spent seven years in a development bank, and development bankers can actually do all of the things they have said, but development finance at scale is what is needed. That will de-risk the market and allow your private sector to get involved in it. Thank you.
The Chair: Thank you very much. By the way, the pension funds are something we were exploring, but it didn’t really work.
Senator Coyle: This was a very important point, and I agree with you. It was good to cap those answers off in that way.
I want to get back to our conversation about the superclusters or the Global Innovation Clusters and that relationship between Canada and various African countries or regions. I just want to make sure I’m getting what you’re suggesting.
We happen to choose these areas because these are areas of strength for Canada, and some of those may match with areas of strength and opportunity for different regions or countries in Africa. Some may not, and there may be other kinds of clusters you might want to develop in Africa. Is it both of those things, those partnerships on specific clusters that we already have going as well as the whole way that we go about the development of those clusters that you’re talking about, which may be quite different in the context of Africa?
Mr. Shaik: The reason why I chose those clusters is because that is where your strength is. I always go back to Pliny the Elder when he says that something new always comes out of Africa. Indeed, something new always does come out of Africa. The innovation that exists in the banking sector — and I know it’s terrible for me to say it — is incredible. I think Canadian banks can learn a hell of a lot from the mobile money transfers that take place in Africa. That’s an area where you could learn. In Africa, we bank the “unbankable,” and because we bank the unbankable, it really works.
There will be some learning for you in that regard, but as for your ocean cluster and your protein industries cluster, we have a hell of a lot to learn. Part of Agenda 2063 is about whether we can rejuvenate Africa as the food basket of the world. That is why we are so interested in that. We could be the food basket of the world given the endowments we have and given the beautiful weather we have.
Senator Coyle: You could also be the green energy.
Mr. Shaik: We could also be the green energy. That’s the reason I’m seeking that linkage.
The Chair: Colleagues, we have come to the end of a stimulating session. It’s very rare that we get an opportunity to have an exchange like this. We do see each other from time to time at events, but this was very concentrated.
On behalf of the committee, I would like to thank Her Excellency Souriya Otmani, His Excellency Prosper Higiro, His Excellency Ngole Philip Ngwese and His Excellency Rieaz Shaik, high commissioners and ambassadors all. You distinguish your countries for being in our capital. We are grateful that you were here, and we will deliberate on what you have offered us.
Colleagues, the plan is to reconvene tomorrow morning at 11:30 in this room. The idea was to have the first hour in public with the Minister of International Development, Ahmed Hussen, and to complete hearing from our witnesses on the Africa study and be wrapping it up. He phoned me just before this meeting. He is ill; he sounds awful, and we are looking at maybe getting his deputy minister or maybe someone else. That’s in the process now. We will send out a message to advise because if we can’t get anyone, then we won’t have that, but we still have planned at 12:30 to have an in camera discussion on future business of this committee. Stay on your screens or look on your screens, and we’ll update you as to what is going on tomorrow.
(The committee adjourned.)