THE STANDING SENATE COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND INTERNATIONAL TRADE
EVIDENCE
OTTAWA, Thursday, November 17, 2022
The Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade met with videoconference this day at 11:30 a.m. [ET] to conduct a study on foreign relations and international trade generally.
Senator Peter M. Boehm (Chair) in the chair.
[Translation]
The Chair: My name is Peter Boehm and I’m a senator from Ontario. I am the Chair of the Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade.
[English]
Before we begin, I wish to invite committee members participating in today’s meeting to introduce themselves. We also have a few guest senators here. I’m grateful for that. Starting on my left.
[Translation]
Senator Gerba: Amina Gerba, Quebec.
Senator Woo: Yuen Pau Woo, British Columbia.
[English]
Senator Greene: Steve Greene, Nova Scotia.
Senator MacDonald: Michael MacDonald, Nova Scotia.
Senator Simons: Paula Simons, Alberta, Treaty 6 territory.
Senator Harder: Peter Harder, Ontario.
Senator Wells: David Wells, Newfoundland and Labrador.
Senator M. Deacon: Marty Deacon — good morning — Ontario.
Senator Hartling: Good morning. Nancy Hartling, New Brunswick.
Senator Richards: Dave Richards, New Brunswick.
The Chair: Thank you very much. Welcome to all and to all who are watching us across the country today on Senate ParlVU.
Today, as part of our ongoing plan to receive regular updates on the matter, we are again meeting to discuss the situation in Ukraine. We are pleased to welcome the Ambassador of Canada to Ukraine, Her Excellency Larisa Galadza.
Welcome, ambassador. Thank you for being with us. Before we hear your remarks and proceed to questions and answers, I wish to ask you and members of the committee to please refrain from leaning too closely into the microphone or remove your earpiece when doing so. This will avoid any sound feedback that could negatively impact the committee staff and others in the room who might be wearing the earpiece for interpretive purposes.
Ambassador, you have the floor.
[Translation]
Larisa Galadza, Ambassador of Canada to Ukraine: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Let me begin by thanking this committee for giving me the opportunity to present a brief on the situation in Ukraine.
As we meet today, Russia’s war of aggression is nearing its ninth month. In that time, we witnessed tremendous human suffering and incredible cruelty committed against the people of an independent and sovereign nation.
This war is an existential one for the Ukrainian people. They are fighting for their sovereignty and territorial integrity, and to preserve their language, culture, history and identity. Furthermore, Ukraine is defending the values we collectively share.
[English]
For these reasons, it is an immense privilege to serve as ambassador in Ukraine at this historic time, and I know I speak for the entire team at the Embassy of Canada in Ukraine when I say we are honoured to represent all of Canada’s support and commitment. I have been in Canada for a couple of weeks, and I am reminded of how strong that support and commitment are. The work being done across the government is immense, and whether driving around Gabriola Island or through the streets of the Glebe, I have seen so many Ukrainian flags flying, a sure reminder of how close Canadians feel to Ukraine.
Let me say a few words about the current situation there. Last week, Ukraine achieved a remarkable victory with the liberation of the city of Kherson. While this is a triumphal moment, these gains are not easily won, and Russia is not relenting in its aggression. On Tuesday, cities and energy infrastructure across Ukraine were hit with a record wave of 96 Russian missiles. This morning, there was another barrage. These attacks are on civilian infrastructure: the water, heat and light that people need to live every day.
We must also not forget that with every liberation of occupied territories, more atrocities are uncovered and horrors are unearthed. The ongoing destruction of Ukrainian energy and water infrastructure, as well as civilian infrastructure, such as homes, schools and hospitals, is of grave concern. At least 40% of Ukraine’s electricity infrastructure is now damaged following recent Russian missile and drone strikes. The City of Kyiv is preparing for the potential loss of electricity, water and heat in its entirety. Over 7 million people have fled Ukraine since the start of the invasion and over 17 million are in need of humanitarian assistance. This amounts to over 30% of Ukraine’s population. This winter will be extremely challenging.
Despite the grim reality, there is optimism. The brave and resilient Ukrainian people continue to fight with extraordinary courage for their country, communities and families. Since my return to Kyiv in May, I have seen first-hand the perseverance and determination of Ukrainians. It is hugely inspiring, and it is this determination that continually inspires me and staff at our embassy to keep pressing forward despite the difficult circumstances.
The solidarity with Ukraine demonstrated by Canadians is palpable and concrete and well recognized in Ukraine. While Canada and our partners are focused on Ukraine’s most urgent needs, we are also planning for the longer-term recovery and reconstruction of the country. We look toward Ukraine building back better and emerging from this war even stronger.
I know you are all likely very familiar with the extent of Canada’s support to Ukraine, but it always bears repeating.
[Translation]
To date, Canada and our partners have responded swiftly to support Ukraine, and with an unprecedented level of coordination. This year, Canada committed over $5 billion in multifaceted support to Ukraine that is providing assistance in a number of ways, including military aid and much-needed winter gear, supporting the energy sector, backstopping the government of Ukraine’s economic resilience, providing life-saving humanitarian assistance, and supporting food security, civil society, accountability and mine clearance efforts.
The Prime Minister also recently announced that Canada will issue Ukraine sovereignty bonds to help the government of Ukraine continue its operations, and provide essential services to Ukrainians. In addition, Canada is focused on putting an end to the impunity of Putin, his regime and those abetting him, and on placing economic and political pressure on them to stop the war.
Since February, Canada has imposed sanctions on 1,500 individuals and entities in Russia, Belarus and Ukraine. We were first among its partners to implement the Russian Elites, Proxies and Oligarchs Task Force, to allow for the seizure, forfeiture, disposal and redistribution of assets belonging to listed individuals and entities. We want accountability for those responsible, and justice for victims, and we will support investigations into war crimes and potential crimes against humanity.
[English]
Finally, I should mention the support we continue to provide Ukraine’s reform efforts, our international assistance programming and the diplomatic efforts of the G7 Ambassadors’ Ukraine Support Group on reforms in Kyiv are continuing the work that was under way before the invasion. The government of Ukraine understands that these reforms cannot wait and that successful recovery from the war is predicated on strong democracy, inclusion, rule of law, transparency and accountability.
As the work continues to evolve, Canada and our allies are focused on supporting Ukraine and showing a united front against Russia’s aggression. Whether in Ottawa, in missions abroad or in Kyiv, this is our mission. In ten days, I will return to Kyiv to a strong and dedicated team of Canadians and Ukrainians at our embassy. We will accompany the Ukrainian people through the winter and, with them, look forward to a springtime of freedom and regeneration. Thank you.
The Chair: Thank you very much, ambassador, for your opening statement.
Colleagues, we will go to the question-and-answer round. As usual, it will be four minutes for both the question and the answer, so I would ask you to keep your questions concise.
I know all of you want to ask questions. We can move on to a second round or maybe even a third one. We will see how it goes.
Senator Harder: Ambassador, welcome to the Senate. I would like to express my thanks for your service and that of your staff, both locally engaged and Canadian-based. I want to ask you a little bit about your responsibilities for duty of care. As we know from our work, duty of care rests ultimately with the head of mission. How are you exercising that responsibility, not just for the Canadian-based but for locally engaged? I was surprised to learn that the hardship level of your embassy is not at the highest level of hardship. I can’t find in my mind another capital that could be worse in that regard. So are the rules and procedures that you work with flexible enough to take into account the circumstances that you are facing with respect to your responsibility for duty of care?
Ms. Galadza: Thanks for getting very quickly to the very heart an ambassador’s job as head of mission and our responsibility for the exercise of the duty of care — the Government of Canada’s responsibility for the exercise of the duty of care.
We’ve had a lot of ups and downs. We have been focused on duty of care in an incredibly intensive way since March of 2020 when COVID hit and then the overlapping COVID and invasion that we saw coming taxed us to really hone in on these issues, both for the Canada-based staff as well as for our locally engaged staff.
We have a duty of care for safety and security in the workplace. For Canadians, that’s in Ukraine, and for the locally engaged staff, that’s when they are at work at the embassy.
I can’t go into all of what we’re doing in terms security and the precautions. I will say a few things, though. We are very well supported in our decisions on mission posture. We have adjusted, adjusted and adjusted again as the situation changes. We have limited our exposure by drawing down — as everyone here knows, even, in fact, by evacuating in February. We have continued to look at what we can do, in particular, for our locally engaged staff to ensure that they are well supported. This is now also a question of ensuring that we retain them. So this is being addressed at the highest levels in the department. It’s being taken very seriously every day.
In terms of the rules and the procedures, certainly COVID tested their flexibility. I think that we’re seeing in the unprecedented and very dire situation we have in Ukraine right now that we have outlier kinds of situations for which we probably need to be better prepared in the world that we face. That also is top of mind at Global Affairs Canada. Staff and management are all being engaged on those questions and I think we from the mission in Ukraine will be uniquely placed to provide advice and feedback on how things work and how things can be strengthened.
The Chair: Thank you very much. I’m sure this is a theme we’ll be coming back to as questions progress.
Senator Wells: Thank you, ambassador, for appearing today and for serving Canada in Ukraine.
Recently, I was in Warsaw and Vilnius and heard from senior relevant ministers that now is not the time to take the foot off the gas with respect to the war. They feel very vulnerable and threatened and, in fact, in many ways are on the front line as well. Today, Estonian Prime Minister Kallas said please give all you can with respect to weapons. I was in Lublin recently, which is their refugee processing centre in Poland. I met with school teachers who are teaching Ukrainian kids. We asked what they needed. We were thinking exercise books and pencils and their answer was weapons, weapons, weapons. We have heard from relevant Canadian ministers that Canada is giving all it can, recognizing, obviously, the importance of cold-weather clothing and the obvious importance of that. What is Canada’s position on giving light armoured vehicles, artillery and other things that we may have in surplus?
Ms. Galadza: Thank you for the question, Senator Wells. Anyone you ask what they need will say weapons. You hear this from human rights activists, from mothers, from school teachers and from every single government official, no matter what their portfolio. They need the weapons.
Canada’s announcement the other day of another $500 million for disbursement this year is going to be spent on the things that Ukraine needs. We do not dream up the donations that we’re going to make. The system for Ukraine identifying and prioritizing what they need is actually quite well honed now. At the beginning, as you ask imagine, there was chaos. It is well honed, led by the Americans out of Ramstein, and we’re full active participants in that.
So when the government announces new funding and a new contribution to lethal aid for Ukraine, we have lists we can go to. We know what is readily available and whether it’s in Canada or elsewhere. I think best efforts are going to be made — really, best efforts — are going to be made to get Ukrainians what they need. On top of the list, of course, is air defence, but, like you said, armoured vehicles are also really important. The 39 armoured combat support vehicles that are going to be arriving these days in Ukraine are really important, and I think that we will see more of the same.
The Chair: Thank you.
Senator Massicotte: Thank you, Ambassador. I want to speak about the humanitarian side of this. Canada has provided hundreds of millions of dollars in humanitarian assistance, and all Canadians support that, certainly, but what are the most urgent humanitarian needs today? And how successful do you believe we have been to date in meeting those needs?
Ms. Galadza: Thank you, senator. The most urgent needs right now are for winterization: the materials needed to close holes in walls or to reinforce ceilings or what have you, blankets and stoves, that sort of thing, that will help people live through the winter. There is a very, very strong focus on that by the Ukrainian government but also by the humanitarian agencies, international ones and local ones, operating in Ukraine.
Here, too, the coordination and the collaboration in Kyiv and in Ukraine has only improved over the months of the war. There are two aspects that I would speak to. As you probably know, our largest humanitarian contributions are made to the UN agencies and the international NGOs operating in Ukraine. When we provide that money, we also watch to see how it is used and ensure that it is effective in the context, and Ukraine is a very, very different context for humanitarian actors.
The new head of all UN operations in Ukraine, Ms. Denise Brown, who is a Canadian, has made a huge effort to ensure that that coordination is as tight as possible, that humanitarian assistance arrives quickly and that the UN’s humanitarian assistance goes to those areas that most need it, those areas that aren’t easily reached by others.
They are also very conscious that there is a strong local capacity within Ukraine to assist, especially with that final mile of delivery of humanitarian assistance.
One of the things that we as the international community and as big donors insisted on from the outset is that the international NGOs not bring in their massive industry into Ukraine, that as much as possible they use local suppliers, local supply chains and local organizations to deliver humanitarian assistance. That’s what keeps it relevant, quick, sustainable and as inexpensive as possible.
That’s what’s happening in Ukraine right now. The UN is also bringing the smaller NGOs and the Ukrainian organizations into their fold to coordinate and to work with them. They sometimes say that the UN’s objective is to be out as soon as possible with Ukrainians continuing the work that needs to be done.
So the urgent need is winterization, and Canada has provided additional money expressly for that. I think the system is constantly being refined and buttressed to deal with whatever the next needs are.
Senator Simons: With the anniversary of the Holodomor near upon us, and given Ukraine’s reputation and history as the bread basket, not just of their own country but for all of eastern and western Europe, can you speak a little bit about what the food situation is after what I can only assume was an unusual fall harvest season? As I am a member of the Agriculture Committee, I am curious to know what supports Canada is preparing to help Ukraine restore its agricultural sector in the spring.
Ms. Galadza: Thank you. This war has exposed just how dependent the world is on Ukraine’s agricultural production. It isn’t that it was the bread basket of Europe and the rest of the world, it is the bread basket. And Ukrainians are proud of this. The world sees them in a different light because it is now obvious, with the grain shipments having diminished so significantly and exports dropping, that there was a lot coming from Ukraine that people now don’t have on their tables.
Canada has very quickly responded to the urgent needs, particularly of grain storage. They didn’t have a huge storage capacity because it never sat around for very long. It went to port and it went out.
Through the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations, Canada provided significant funding, and those storage facilities are now arriving in Ukraine and being set up, and that will be really important in the next harvest season as well.
I know that the Minister of Agriculture and her counterpart in Ukraine are in constant contact. Farmers always think ahead, and this is one area where they are thinking ahead to the next season, the season after, but the urgent need is now. Minister Bibeau is working directly with her colleague to understand what that is and to ensure that Canada can step in and help, whether it is with seeds or technology or what have you.
We also provided important technology to help Ukraine with its exports, to ensure that the labs that are needed to test the food being exported are in the right places to make sure that as much can get out as possible.
Ukrainians really look to Canadians as their counterparts, as their homologue in the world on agriculture. That surprised me because Europe is right there. But there’s nobody who can compete in regard to size, scope and scale the way Canada can. So they look to us for that assistance, for advice, and in the reconstruction phase, I think, they will look to us for new and better ways of farming.
Our focus has been small- and medium-sized enterprises in Ukraine to support local communities, to make sure that they have what it takes to survive this crisis.
[Translation]
Senator Gerba: I’d like to go back to the question my colleague Senator Simons asked earlier. The agreement on grain exports was renewed in extremis very recently, for four months. Many developing countries, particularly on the African continent, rely on this agreement to feed their people. Its renewal is therefore a great relief to these countries.
My question, ambassador, is the following: what reasons did Russia put forward for not extending this agreement?
[English]
Ms. Galadza: That was this morning’s really great news, that the Black Sea Grain Initiative had been renewed. There was a lot of anxiety about this. Thank you for highlighting it.
It is for 120 days. I don’t know what the reasons are for Russia not doing it for longer. I do know that they tried to say that they want sanctions lifted on agricultural and food exports and fertilizer and things from their own country and that they won’t move forward because of these sanctions. That is disinformation. We have not sanctioned their agricultural exports. So even if they gave us a reason for why they didn’t want to do it for more than four months, I’m not sure that I would believe it.
[Translation]
Senator Gerba: How, in fact, did Canada support this agreement?
[English]
Ms. Galadza: We provided significant money to the World Food Programme so they can buy the grains that Ukraine is producing and ship them out. Moreover, we are working through our diplomatic networks in those countries most affected by this food crisis brought on by Russia’s invasion of Ukraine to ensure that the people, governments and authorities there understand what the source of the problem is. The source is not Ukraine. The source is Russia and their invasion.
There has been a significant diplomatic and political effort to ensure that that is well understood and that that understanding translates into pressure on Russia by those countries to support the Black Sea Grain Initiative and to keep it going.
Senator M. Deacon: Thank you, ambassador, for being here. We very much appreciate it. I think as a Senate, we are constantly trying to make connections between the work, the conversations and the boots-on-the-ground reality. It’s also nice to hear testimony from our colleague, Senator Wells, who has had some connection in the area. Thank you for trying to bring that to us.
I wonder a couple of things today. The first one is about moving along, moving forward with the hopes and dreams of this war ending soon. With the Russian retreat from Kherson, conversations have picked up about how to rebuild a post‑conflict Ukraine. Planning has already begun, as we saw in Berlin in late October. The latest estimate we have seen for the cost of reconstruction is estimated right now and $350 billion. No doubt, as mentioned earlier, weapons and kit are still priority number one. But we also don’t want to be caught, as Canada and in Ukraine, flat-footed when it comes time to rebuild Ukraine.
I’m wondering what Canada can be doing right now to help prepare and support Ukraine for post-war in the longer haul.
Ms. Galadza: Thank you. The rebuilding, the reconstruction, the funding of it, the prioritization, the governance, the accountability — these are all very big questions that many people are seized with in the countries that consider themselves to be Ukraine’s good friends. The G7 is a real anchor.
Right now, we’re doing a lot to make a significant contribution to Ukraine’s economy and macro-financial stability right now. There will be nothing to rebuild if they don’t win the macro-financial stability fight. So much of Russia’s aggression is striking at the heart of the economy. The over $2 billion that Canada has already provided for that stability is really important. What is more important is that we provided it and dispersed it quickly. Ukrainians appreciate that. Often promises are made and delivered well after. We have a bit of a reputation of making promises and quickly delivering on them. I’m proud of that.
The second thing I think we can do to make sure that Ukraine is able to rebuild quickly and successfully is to continue pressing on in those areas where we have traditionally been strong partners of Ukraine. First and foremost, in military assistance, rebuilding the military and military training. Operation UNIFIER was and is an incredibly powerful tool and an incredibly effective training mission for Ukraine. Before the war, through Operation UNIFIER, the Canadian Armed Forces had trained 33,000 Ukrainian soldiers. That continues now, obviously not in Ukraine, but as an even bigger mission than existed before, and it has a mandate for several years. Ukraine’s reconstruction and rebuild depend on its security, so the weapons answer, the strong military and strong security are going to be number one for a very long time. We are good partners to Ukraine. We’re effective partners, and we need to keep doing that.
The Chair: Thank you, ambassador.
Senator Hartling: Thank you, ambassador, being here and for giving us such a clear understanding of what is going on. I appreciate the hard work that you’re doing with your colleagues there for us and for all of the people in Ukraine.
I have met some Ukrainians who come to New Brunswick. Of course, we see the news and we see what is going on. We’re not really there, but we see it. Just in talking to some of the people that have come here, their families are split and different things. How are the people’s mental and physical health being addressed? I know their spirits are strong, but what kind of resources are there to help people cope right now? I can only imagine with winter coming and every day seeing what is going on, it must be difficult. Do you have insight on that?
Ms. Galadza: Yes. I think we’re all digging deeper for coping strategies these days. One of the most impressive things that I have seen in Ukraine is just how quickly the country has de‑stigmatized mental health and how much they are doing to build a national mental health strategy for the entirety of their country. Before the invasion, there were good conversations about that with respect to veterans and PTSD — another area where the Ukrainians really looked to Canada — but since the invasion, a real focus has been put on everyone’s need to be more mental‑health literate, quite frankly, and to provide the supports that are required.
This is being led out of the office of the first lady of Ukraine, Olena Zelenska, with the support of the experts of the World Health Organization. That is under way. They are focusing on children — they are focusing on everyone — they understand everyone has different needs and it really is a comprehensive approach. So that’s happening.
Canada has doubled its contribution to the United Nations Population Fund. That’s specifically for targeting sexual and gender-based violence, domestic violence, the needs of women and children. We know that contribution is really important at this time, and the UN is well placed to serve those particularly vulnerable populations. Those are two things that I would highlight as areas of real progress and a lot of work and attention.
Senator Hartling: Thank you very much. Physical health was my other question. I imagine people are being injured and things like that. Are there resources for that?
Ms. Galadza: There are so many injured coming back from the war that I think if I felt sick, my instinct would be to sit at home and sit it out. I think that Ukrainians are long-suffering. They are that way. They will find the help that they need, but, I think, as we saw here in Canada during COVID, people sort of just put it off and put it off. I think we’re going to see the effects of that over the longer term. Of course, the hospitals. Hundreds of medical facilities have been destroyed in this war. Hundreds. Then they are every day affected by rolling blackouts, if rolling blackouts are available; otherwise, it’s just nothing.
Senator Hartling: Thank you.
Senator Richards: Thank you, madam ambassador. You just mentioned how many buildings are being obliterated by the drone attacks and other things. You briefly mentioned air defence systems. Does Canada have the air defence systems or have they given them to mitigate the constant drone and missile attacks? Would you think it might require a more robust defence, like aircraft defence over the skies of Ukraine?
Ms. Galadza: Certainly, closing the skies is something that the Ukrainians asked for very loudly at the outset of the war. To close the sky requires a United Nations Security Council resolution, and I think you know how the rest of that story goes in this instance. That’s not possible.
Air defences are being provided by Ukraine’s biggest allies who have the equipment. We don’t have the air defences that they need. We are providing other equipment that is really important. The drone cameras that we continue to provide that are made here in Canada are incredibly powerful enabler for the Ukrainian forces. The vehicles that we’re going to be providing will allow them to go deeper into dangerous territory and to safeguard the movement of troops and supplies. We have all learned a lot about how important supply lines are to the war machine in this war, and so those vehicles we’re supplying will be really important.
The training that we continue to provide, the clothing — there is no contribution the Ukrainians have told me that is too small. So, we may not be in the air-defence-supply business for Ukraine, but we’re doing across the board so many other things that are really important as quickly as we can.
Senator Richards: Thank you. We do supply anti-aircraft capability, don’t we? Or do we?
Ms. Galadza: We have provided the M777. You have to ask someone who knows a lot more about military equipment than I do about whether those are anti-aircraft.
Senator Richards: Thank you very much.
The Chair: We’re coming to the end of round one. I would like to ask a question as well.
I think what we have seen since February 24 is an unprecedented amount of coordination between G7 and other countries with respect to this invasion. The G7 mechanism or group of ambassadors that you’re a part of has existed since before then. I know it well. But is it possible for you to engage in all of the coordination you would like on the ground, given conditions — we can’t forget there was a pandemic at the start of this as well. How does that work? Leaders are talking to each other. The foreign ministers are talking to each other. Germany has the presidency of the G7 and is coordinating. Is this replicated on the ground in Ukraine or even when you’re not in Kyiv?
Ms. Galadza: Yes and no. Certainly, we’re aware of the incredible amount of activity taking place at all the different tables, that is mostly supported by people here in capitals who talk amongst each other and ministers talk amongst each other. We keep tabs on that.
In Ukraine, the value that we try to provide on the ground is a better understanding of the nuances, the validation of the asks and the triangulation of positions. As you can imagine, there are many voices, many competing priorities. I think the reporting that we’re able to do and the engagement we do — that I do with my colleagues, and that we together do with Ukrainian authorities — helps attune the coordination that is happening at the G7 tables.
I’m really struck by just how much activity there is at the G7. This is number one, the number one issue. It’s important that we all be coordinated. Donor coordination generally is very difficult, or has become more difficult, because the people who do it are scattered. The access to the stakeholders and the recipients is very difficult. Everyone is in a state of displacement and that’s challenging, but the teams are working really hard to overcome those challenges and to keep all those good mechanisms going, because they are more important now than ever.
The Chair: Thank you very much. That’s helpful. Round two.
Senator MacDonald: I want to go back to humanitarian aspects that I raised before. The UN High Commissioner for Refugees reports that nearly eight million Ukrainians have registered for temporary protection as refugees. I am curious, how many of these eight million people has Canada resettled? What are the average wait times for these refugees who have applied to come to Canada? How many applicants are waiting to be processed of those people we are bringing in?
Ms. Galadza: I will flip to my most recent numbers because I do have them. Hold on one second. I’ll go from memory because I was actually at Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada yesterday talking to them about this. As you can imagine, Ukrainians have always travelled a lot to Canada, and so, it is seen as a friendly place to go and a welcoming place to go if you’re willing to make the trip.
Over 370,000 applications have been approved under the Canada-Ukraine Authorization for Emergency Travel program. That was stood up at the end of March as you’ll recall. Talk about unprecedented. An unprecedented program and an unprecedented volume of applicants.
Of those, there is somewhere in the area of 80,000 to 90,000 people who have arrived. So a lot more applications have been approved than people have arrived.
Right now, there is an average of 14,000 applications per week. Continuous. How many of those will come to Canada? We don’t know. And how many of the people who have arrived will stay here, take another path to maybe a more permanent residence? We don’t know. But of those who have come, the vast majority have availed themselves of the assistance provided both by the federal government and by the provinces, whether that’s financial assistance, language training, the free housing and the social supports to find work, childcare, schooling for children and the like.
Senator MacDonald: So 370,000 have been processed and about 80,000 to 90,000 are here. Of the, I guess, over 200,000 that aren’t here, what is the biggest obstacle to them getting here? What is the big mountain for them to climb? Before language training and all this other stuff, just getting here?
Ms. Galadza: Some of them may face some obstacles to getting out. Males of fighting age by martial law are not allowed out. They may have applied and gotten a visa in the hopes that they will at some point be able to leave. My biggest theory is it’s a plan B. It’s insurance for people, something that they want in their passport in case they have to leave. It’s a three-year visa. So, I think waiting for the right moment might be part of the reason.
Senator MacDonald: Thank you.
Senator Simons: I’m from Edmonton where people take this very personally. There are all kinds of initiatives on the ground in Edmonton including one led by former premier Ed Stelmach and former deputy premier Thomas Lukaszuk to airlift things, donations to Ukraine. I know this comes from a good place, but I am always concerned about whether that is actually useful at the other end or if just creates more work.
At the same time, we see Canadians going to volunteer to fight in Ukraine. Two of them have been killed, most recently, Joseph Hildebrand from Saskatchewan. So I’m wondering, I guess, what advice or guidance you have for Canadians who want to help. What is the best way for them to channel those energies? Is it useful to have people in Edmonton filling up planes with used wheelchairs and parkas? Is it more help or hindrance for Canadians to go to fight? I mean, Mr. Hildebrand was a member of the Canadian Armed Forces, a veteran. I imagine some people who might show up might not have those skills necessarily.
Ms. Galadza: Thanks. I can answer that second part first. Our advice to Canadians is do not travel to Ukraine, not for any reason. There are some who have decided to go and fight, and that’s their individual decision, but we’ve seen what can happen. It is a brutal, brutal war.
In terms of donations, I would say it depends. From our perspective, when we’re thinking about how to spend the next $500 million of military assistance or anything, we’re looking at what Ukrainians need. What does a specific entity tell us that they need? We will try to provide that. If you have planeloads of donations going randomly, it’s probably not helpful. If you have a specific organization that you’re working with that is refitting a dormitory maybe for disabled children and they need wheelchairs, then it’s probably good — and stuffed animals and clothes and things. So it really, really depends.
There are so many people-to-people connections, grassroots connections, between Canada and Ukraine, so you see this happening in communities all over the country. It’s great, but my advice to them would be to make sure you’re sending something to a specific entity that tells you that is needed.
Provide what is needed in the most effective way because sometimes you spend more money on shipping than it would cost to buy on the local market. The local market continues to function. The supply chains are working. They may not be as extensive as before, but the local market does work. That’s my advice. Money is always the best way to support. There are many grassroots organizations that are supporting and doing good work on the ground.
Senator Simons: Do you have a sense of how many Canadian fighters there might be in Ukraine? Do they tend to register with the embassy or —
Ms. Galadza: Even if they did, we would not know. Even if they registered on the Registration of Canadians Abroad, the ROCA system, we wouldn’t know.
Senator Simons: Thank you very much.
[Translation]
Senator Gerba: Ambassador, President Volodimir Zelenskyy recently announced his conditions for the resumption of negotiations with Russia, which pointedly included the restitution of occupied territories, compensation for the damage caused by the war and the prosecution of war crimes. Russia, of course, has already announced that these conditions were not realistic.
Do you think the war will one day be resolved by diplomatic means? If not, what is the diplomatic community expecting in connection with this conflict?
[English]
Ms. Galadza: Russia thought it was realistic to invade Ukraine from three sides and take it over, so I don’t accept any of their judgments about what is realistic or not realistic.
The war will be resolved on Ukraine’s terms. Ukraine will win this war, and it will be resolved on their terms. This is their firm position, and our support to them in this position is also firm. President Zelenskyy has also said that there will be no talks with Russia unless it’s a different president.
We layer all these things on top of one other, and it doesn’t look like there will be anyone going to a negotiating table any time soon. Ukraine, I think, will do so when it is in a very strong position of strength and when Russia feels the pain.
Right now, the continued addition of sanctions, the continued marginalization of Russia in the international sphere — all these things are really important, to bring them to the realization that they are not going to win, and to bring them to a point where they are ready to maybe discuss the withdrawal of all of their troops. But that is an absolute.
I will also recall for senators that Ukraine was, for many years, at diplomatic talks and in negotiations with Russia on the resolution of the invasion of 2014 and the return of the territories in Donetsk and Luhansk.
If one looks back at how the last two or three, years of those discussions went, they were extremely painful and manipulative. They went nowhere. They were stalled; they were frozen. Russia played every game in the book during those discussions. That is why Ukraine isn’t keen to get back into any kind of discussion. They know who they are dealing with. They can’t trust the promises. They can’t trust the word. They can’t even trust that the process of negotiations would be respected. That’s why their only recourse right now is the kinetic one, the military one, and they are on a bit of a roll.
The Chair: Thank you.
Senator M. Deacon: In light of the importance of endurance and keeping the supports there for what seems like the long haul, and not to contradict some of your earlier comments, but my wonder is if there if Ukranians feel there is a waning of interest? Do they perceive lower resolve or less caring? Is there a concern of this war returning to the back page or not being in the lead of the stories globally? When you’re working with your Ukrainian counterparts, is there a worry that the West’s interest or resolve might start to wane when we need it most, particularly in the description of you just responded to?
If that could possibly happen or if it is happening on the ground, how does that influence the morale in Ukraine in both the short-term and the long-term?
Ms. Galadza: There was more concern about “Ukraine fatigue” in the summer because things were kind of settling out. The movements were very small, and there was concern. I haven’t heard that concern in a while. Certainly, there are announcements like the Prime Minister made the other day. Every day, a country is making another announcement of some kind of contribution, and that keeps them going.
But, also, the Ukrainians have done a masterful job of reaching out to the populations of the countries that support them, to keep citizens of the West engaged in the people’s stories. I’m sure you have seen it. I’m sure you have been struck by it. That’s very deliberate. President Zelenskyy has said, many times, democratic governments won’t go against the will of their people, so we need to make sure that the will of the people is to keep supporting Ukraine.
The Chair: Thank you. Ambassador, on behalf of the committee, thank you for appearing today. We’ve had a very good discussion. I think it’s fair to say we all admire your leadership. We admire the commitment and energy of your staff in Ukraine, both Canadians and locally engaged Ukrainian people at the embassy. Thank you very much for coming. We look forward to, inevitably, having you back for an update when that’s possible.
Honourable senators, before I adjourn the meeting, I ask members of the steering committee to remain behind. We’ll have a short discussion. Thank you very much.
(The committee adjourned.)