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THE STANDING SENATE COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND INTERNATIONAL TRADE

EVIDENCE

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OTTAWA, Wednesday, November 29, 2023

The Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade met with videoconference this day at 4:16 p.m. [ET] to conduct a study on foreign relations and international trade generally.

Senator Peter M. Boehm (Chair) in the chair.

[Translation]

The Chair: Honourable senators, my name is Peter Boehm. I am a senator from Ontario and the chair of the Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade.

[English]

Before we begin, I wish to invite committee members participating in today’s meeting to introduce themselves.

Senator Ravalia: Good afternoon and welcome. I’m Senator Mohamed Ravalia from Newfoundland and Labrador.

Senator Coyle: Mary Coyle, Antigonish, Nova Scotia.

[Translation]

Senator Gerba: Amina Gerba from Quebec.

[English]

Senator R. Patterson: Rebecca Patterson, Ontario.

Senator Woo: Yuen Pau Woo, British Columbia.

Senator Harder: Peter Harder, Ontario.

Senator Boniface: Gwen Boniface, Ontario.

Senator M. Deacon: Marty Deacon, Ontario.

The Chair: Thank you very much. Welcome, senators.

I wish to welcome also those Canadians who are watching us from across the country today.

Colleagues, as you know, as part of our plan to receive regular updates on the matter, we are meeting today to discuss the situation in Ukraine. This is the committee’s tenth such meeting since March 2022. To provide an update for us, for our first panel we are very honoured to welcome via video conference directly from Kyiv, Andriy Kostin, the Prosecutor General of Ukraine.

I had the pleasure of meeting the Prosecutor General at the Halifax International Security Forum, and some of you also met him when he was here in Ottawa, and we had an informal meeting with him. This, of course, is a formal meeting.

Mr. Kostin, thank you very much for joining us, especially at what is a very, very late hour in Kyiv. We really appreciate you being with us today.

Before we hear your remarks and proceed to questions and answers, I wish to ask members and witnesses in the room to please refrain from leaning too closely into their microphone, or remove your earpiece when doing so. This will avoid any sound feedback that could negatively impact the committee staff and others in the room who might be wearing the earpiece for interpretation.

I want to acknowledge that Senator MacDonald of Nova Scotia has just joined us as well.

We are now ready to hear your opening remarks, Prosecutor General, and that will be followed by questions from senators.

I would like to acknowledge that Senator Richards of New Brunswick has also just joined us.

Mr. Kostin, you have the floor.

Andriy Kostin, Prosecutor General of Ukraine, as an individual: Good afternoon, Chair Boehm, Deputy Chair Harder and members of the standing committee. Thank you very much for this opportunity to appear before you today and discuss bringing back justice to Ukraine.

Canada is one of the most reliable allies of Ukraine and the Ukrainians. We deeply value your commitments and strong support of Ukraine in 2022 as well as in 2014. Canada has been at the forefront of the referral of the situation in Ukraine to the International Criminal Court, or ICC, as well as in adopting the resolutions and decisions at the United Nations and other international organizations. We are immensely grateful to the Parliament of Canada for recognizing Russia’s military actions in Ukraine as genocide and clearly seeing the existence of the inherent criminal plan directed at the destruction of Ukrainian statehood. Thank you for denouncing the pseudo-referendums in the temporarily occupied territories of Ukraine.

Ukraine firmly believes that accountability is a precondition to sustainable peace and stability as outlined in the peace formula proposed by President Zelenskyy. Therefore, our primary aim is to restore justice, break the cycle of impunity and deter any future commission of the international crimes. This can be achieved only by ensuring that the Russian Federation as well as the individuals responsible for the crime of aggression and atrocity crimes committed in Ukraine are held liable through an intrinsic web of accountability, which includes both national and international legal architecture.

Since the beginning of the full-scale Russian aggression, we see a state policy allowing and even encouraging the commission of core international crimes in Ukraine. Therefore, we have initiated structural investigations in three main directions: crimes of aggression, crimes of genocide and war crimes. To date, around 111,000 incidents of war crimes have been recorded in Ukraine, including massive shelling and indiscriminate attacks against civilians, torture and summary execution, arbitrary deprivation of liberty, sexual violence and the forcible displacement of civilians and children, et cetera. Due to the complexity and high number of crimes, we have specialized our approaches and diversified our resources by setting up nine regional war crime units — units on a central level, addressing conflict-related sexual violence and wartime-related environmental damage.

One of the key directions is for us to make the justice system more human and victim-centred, dynamic and accessible as well as to increase the trust of society in prosecution services. For this reason, we have established the Coordination Center for the Support of Victims and Witnesses to provide comprehensive guidance to the survivors of Russian atrocities throughout the legal procedures. Moreover, we have launched a community prosecution project dedicated to building a long-term, proactive partnership between the prosecution service, police, civil society organizations and the community at large.

For Ukraine, it’s central to see international crimes prosecuted and state responsibility established on an international level also. Therefore, we actively work with the International Criminal Court, and we already see the leadership demonstrated by the Court in the form of arrest warrants against Vladimir Putin and Maria Lvova-Belova. However, the Court should not limit itself here. I hope the Court will also focus on other widespread atrocities committed by Russia.

Hereby, I would like to express my gratitude for Canada’s additional funding to the ICC to strengthen accountability for conflict-related sexual violence.

The international community cannot allow the mother of all crimes — the crime of aggression — to go unpunished due to jurisdictional gaps. Russian politicians and military leadership should be held accountable for planning, organizing and commanding the unprovoked and unjustified whole scale military intervention into Ukraine. That is why we are so keen for the establishment of a special tribunal on the crime of aggression. We are grateful to Canada for its participation in the Core Group of countries. We have achieved significant progress by setting up and launching the International Centre for the Prosecution of the Crime of Aggression, or ICPA, in July this year. We view the ICPA as an operational hub for documenting, gathering and analyzing all relevant evidence — in short, the first important step toward the enforcement of accountability for aggression. It also gives an opportunity for other states and institutions to join, through memoranda of understanding and by appointing their prosecutors to the ICPA, as has been done by the United States and is currently being negotiated with the United Kingdom. We would like to see Canada’s active role in this area as well.

Needless to say, reparation of damage is crucial for victims and survivors. It is also a crucial element in the reconstruction plan for Ukraine. We seek redress through lawful measures — sanctions and the setting up of an international compensation mechanism. In this regard, operationalization of the register of damage through an enlarged partial agreement is a first step in the right direction — a new body for gathering and securing evidence of damage and injury caused. These measures shall be complemented by a rigorous sanctions regime that allows for the confiscation of assets and their repurpose for rebuilding Ukraine. We are aware of and grateful for Bill S-278, amending the Special Economic Measures Act in order to allow for a legal mechanism to seize and repurpose Russian assets to Ukraine. We hope to see this bill become a piece of legislation, followed by an effective implementation record.

Let me also briefly make an overview of our priority areas. First is the forced deportation and transfer of Ukrainian children. Over 19,000 children have been forcibly displaced from Ukraine to Russia and occupied territories. The alteration of their citizenship and unconsented adoption process is ongoing. There is no denying that it is part of Russia’s planned policy aimed to smear Ukrainian identity by robbing us of our children.

Next is the conflict-related civilian detainees. There are thousands of unlawfully detained civilians in the occupied territories, who are often deported to Russia where their whereabouts are unknown. Both of these international crimes account for a considerable number of victims, necessitating the setting up of the international mechanisms that would ensure immediate suspension and return of forcibly deported Ukrainian children and civilian detainees.

Then there is the impact of war on the environment. The damage caused to the natural environment in Ukraine will have severe and dire consequences, extending far beyond our borders. We see the need for the consolidated efforts of the international community to ensure the documentation, expertise, investigation and prosecution of the environmental crimes. The attacks against the Nova Kakhovka Dam, the Kharkiv Institute of Physics and Technology, nuclear power plants, oil depots, internationally protected territories, the natural reserves of Ukraine and many other objects are not incidental crimes but specifically used methods of destruction of the environment — the natural habitat of persons and species.

Let me once again thank you for your unwavering support and tireless efforts in support of Ukraine. I am confident that only with common efforts will we manage to see accountability reign, which will be a strong building block for our common peaceful future.

I would be happy to hear your views as well as discuss any of the issues of your interest.

Thank you.

The Chair: Thank you very much, Prosecutor General Kostin, for that comprehensive overview.

I want to acknowledge that Senator Stanley Kutcher has joined the committee in an observer capacity.

Colleagues, I want to inform you that as per usual, you will have a maximum of only four minutes for the first round of questions. This includes questions and answers. I know we have a lot to ask, but I would encourage you to keep your questions and preambles as concise as you possibly can.

Senator Ravalia: Thank you, Prosecutor General Kostin. It was a pleasure meeting you when you were here in Canada.

My question focuses on the fact that the wife of Ukraine’s top military intelligence official, Marianna Budanova, was recently hospitalized with heavy-metal poisoning. To what extent is this a concern to the security of Ukraine given this potentially high‑level target within your country?

Mr. Kostin: At the moment, as has been informed by our military intelligence, they are running their internal investigations, upon which they will take decisions whether to include law enforcement agencies of Ukraine and prosecution into the investigation of this incident. This is the only information I can share at the moment.

Senator Ravalia: Are you able to share what her condition is currently?

Mr. Kostin: We can only count on the official information that is publicly disseminated by military intelligence, everything that is in our media. This is all that I can confirm. She is in a stable situation, as we have been informed publicly by our military intelligence.

Senator Ravalia: To shift gears, your military commander-in-chief, Zaluzhny, has recently suggested reports of battlefield stalemate, with concerns of an equilibrium of devastating losses and destruction. Given the fact that there are other major conflicts around the world as well, to what extent are you concerned that the current status is one of a stalemate between Ukraine and Russia on the war front?

Mr. Kostin: Our understanding is that Ukraine is ready to fight for its territorial integrity and for accountability for every war crime committed by Russia and Russians against Ukraine and Ukrainians. In order to win both fights, we need substantial and sustainable support on military, financial, humanitarian, political and accountability levels.

With this unity, and with support coming in time and in amounts necessary to win this war, we understand that we will be ready to win both fights. This will be our joint victory — a victory of civilization against tyranny. We fully understand that in the case that our fight will be too long, Russia and others can open new front lines in other parts of the world. This will give rise to additional threats to global security and stability. It is important to consolidate our efforts and to give Ukraine what is needed, and in time, in order to win this war as soon as possible.

Senator Ravalia: Thank you very much. Please be assured of our ongoing support.

Senator MacDonald: Mr. Kostin, it’s great to see you again, sir.

An article from The New Atlantis has stated that Russia imports materials from China that are vital to their ability to sustain their effort to hold on to Ukrainian territory. The materials in question include ball bearings, silicon chips, avionics and fighter jet engine parts.

Has Ukraine and its allied partners considered sanctioning the import of these materials to Russia? What type of sanctions will be most effective? Thank you.

Mr. Kostin: Thank you for this question. It is extremely important that the world will be consolidated in order to prevent circumvention of sanctions regimes in all dimensions.

The issue you have raised is extremely important because Russia is trying to buy specific goods that it uses in order to produce additional arms. Of course, we are tracking this situation and we share our findings and evidence that many such materials are used by Russia in the production of missiles, drones and other ammunition.

We are ready to share these findings with all our partners — first for sanctioning the companies that are trying to circumvent the sanctions regime; and second, in order to open criminal cases in specific jurisdictions.

Just one month ago, we had a large delegation from the United States’ joint strike force — created by the Departments of Commerce and Justice, in coordination with the FBI — who are investigating numerous cases of circumvention of sanctions that lead to the supply of such goods to Russia through third countries. Cooperation between our countries is extremely important in order to prevent the potential supply of such goods. Ukraine is ready to share all relevant information and to assist in every investigation in order to hold to account those who are still involved in this illegal activity. This will deter other businesses from cooperating with Russia using third countries.

Senator M. Deacon: Thank you for coming back to update us. It is greatly appreciated. I appreciated your comments about the international compensation mechanism. I was glad to hear that as part of your introduction.

While Ukraine has accepted jurisdiction over the ICC, the court cannot exercise jurisdiction over Russian war crimes without Russian consent. Short of a full-scale revolution in Russia that sees the current regime deposed — from your position, with your eyes and ears — is there any scenario where you would envision Russian officials being brought before the ICC to be tried for their crimes?

Mr. Kostin: Thank you for your question. At the moment, we have legislation in Ukraine that provides the possibility for the Office of the Prosecutor of the ICC to conduct its work once again at full capacity. They have complete jurisdiction over any war crimes committed by Russia in Ukraine and over any Russian individual — including the President of Russia, Vladimir Putin, who has a first arrest warrant already.

The only gap in the system of accountability is for the crime of aggression. For this crime, the ICC has other jurisdictional rules. Without the consent of Russia, it’s impossible for the ICC to investigate and prosecute these cases.

In terms of other crimes that are included in the Rome Statute — crimes against humanity, genocide and war crimes — the ICC has full capacity to investigate and prosecute any Russian perpetrator who is involved. These cases are currently ongoing.

In terms of having Russians behind bars in The Hague, of course, this is the goal of our work. We all understand the challenges we have, because trials in the ICC can only be done in person.

With regard to the work of prosecutors, our most important goals are to document evidence, conduct investigations and build a case. We aim to gather enough evidence such that any Russian perpetrator who would appear at the ICC in The Hague in the coming years is tried by the ICC — and not to wait until the end of the war or until they are captured. Our main goal is to prepare cases and for them to wait at the ICC until such perpetrators can be captured and transferred to The Hague. God knows how the situation in Russia will change in the coming years, but we have no time to think about it.

Our work is to document, investigate and prosecute these cases to make them ready for trial in The Hague.

Senator M. Deacon: Thank you.

Senator R. Patterson: Thank you, Prosecutor General Kostin.

I would like to go back to the 19,000 Ukrainian children who have been abducted and forcibly assimilated into Russia, and I’m wondering — recognizing you’re not able to talk about everything — but are you able to provide any information on how you’re actually tracking where these children have gone, and is there any more that the international community can do to help with these children who have no desire to leave Ukraine and have been forced to do so?

Thank you.

Mr. Kostin: Thank you. This is one of the most difficult tasks for all of us.

First of all, I would like to emphasize that all types of war crimes against our children are committed by Russia while this type of crime — forced deportation and abduction of Ukrainian children — was done on a massive scale that was not seen in Europe after the Second World War. We are talking about at least 19,000 cases that we are investigating. Of course, making Russian perpetrators accountable for these heinous crimes does not automatically mean that these children will be returned home.

First of all, we are coordinating our investigative efforts not only with the International Criminal Court, but with expert institutions and with international organizations who have their sources of information in order to find out where our children are located.

I would like to just mention the enormous work done by the Ukraine Conflict Observatory of Yale University, which gives us additional information about the places of illegal detention of Ukrainian children in Russia at the beginning of this year, so this latest report about the potential displacement and transfer of Ukrainian children to Belarus, so the involvement of Belarusian authorities in this criminal practice, which is led by Russia. Not only these authorities, but we also cooperate with intelligence institutions of different countries in order to use their resources in order to find out where our children are.

I think it is most important to proceed with our work from the point of view of accountability, and we all understand — actually, it was publicly mentioned by the Ukrainian ombudsman site event during the United Nations General Assembly High‑level Week. He mentioned that according to his findings, Russia started to return more children after the arrest warrant of the ICC. At the moment, only 387 children have returned back home, which is not enough when taking into account that 19,000 of them were abducted.

Our main goal is to unite the international community and to use every potential avenue on the international level, like international organizations, to accelerate the work of such organizations like the United Nations, UNESCO and the International Committee of the Red Cross, who have the primary role to work and return our children back to Ukraine.

I think united and joint international pressure on Russia, using all of the avenues of international organizations, will help us return our children back home.

I think it’s very important that the coalition of countries who are ready to work for the return of Ukrainian children, which is co-chaired by Canada, I think it’s a great step forward in order to combine efforts of different countries, including those that are ready to be intermediaries in these very difficult negotiations. We have no right to forget that children should be returned home unconditionally, because holding them in Russia without any legal grounds is a violation of international humanitarian law and a violation of their rights.

The Chair: Thank you very much.

Senator Boniface: Prosecutor General Kostin, thank you very much for joining us. My question follows very much on Senator Patterson’s question around the return of children.

You penned an article, I believe, or co-authored it in The Globe and Mail recently. It was published, and you talked about how Canada could appoint a special envoy for international justice, which could serve as a focal point for efforts to support the retrieval of the Ukrainian children.

Could you go into more detail on how you believe a special envoy could help?

Mr. Kostin: I think it’s very important that Canada is playing a more active role once again in creating a coalition of countries that will use every avenue in order to return our children back. We will see how it works, but I think that the special envoy — so the person who will be concentrating only on this topic — will be extremely helpful.

We see it, actually, in our work. I mentioned in a few words that for very difficult topics of our work, we provide a specialization on our level, on the prosecutorial level, people who will have great communication skills, who will have a strong position and great knowledge of international humanitarian law and, I would say, a good network of relations throughout the world, I think, should be very efficient in order to lead these efforts.

Maybe if such a practice would be followed by other countries who are ready to help us, and they would also introduce their envoys who will be specialized in returning Ukranian children, this would be very helpful. Because many politicians are really helpful, but they have a lot of other things. Ministers, diplomats, members of Parliament and heads of governments, they have a lot of other business to attend to. People who are specialized in this will make this work more structural.

Once again, I think that it will be very helpful if world leaders every day will highlight this issue, the necessity to return Ukrainian children and Ukrainian civilian detainees. We are also talking about grown-ups — at least 16,000 Ukrainian grown‑ups — who are illegally detained in Russia and occupied territories. For them, international humanitarian law provides the same: They need to be unconditionally returned home.

I think this idea is very good, and I hope it will be very efficient. Thank you.

Senator Boniface: Thank you very much.

[Translation]

Senator Gerba: Thank you for being here at such a late hour in Kyiv. Last September, the International Criminal Court, or ICC, opened a new field office in Kyiv.

After that decision was made, you stated the following: “Today marks a pivotal stride in our journey towards restoring justice.”

Can you explain what this new office will be able to achieve on the ground? How will this initiative fit in with the 42 ICC experts and investigators already dispatched in 2022?

[English]

Mr. Kostin: Thank you. This is really an historic event. This March I signed an agreement with the ICC on behalf of the Ukrainian government about the establishment of the field office of the ICC in Kyiv. Actually, it is the biggest field office of the ICC outside of The Hague.

For us it is not only a signal but real action of the commitment of the ICC to be in Ukraine and to be with us for years. It’s about sustainable work of the ICC with regard to the investigation of core international crimes committed by Russia in Ukraine.

The opening of the field office simplified the work of the investigators in the Office of the Prosecutor of the ICC. It has simplified a lot of procedures for them to be present in Ukraine and to work in Ukraine for a long time. Before that, it was necessary for them to work on a rotation system. Now, they can stay for longer.

They have specific additional security measures. They have additional equipment, cars, et cetera. This is very important, because they’re also moving throughout the country. They’re driving to places close to active hostilities, so they are working together with our investigators and prosecutors with absolute respect to the independence of their investigation.

We have plans of work with the team of Prosecutor Khan. We have plans for this year, and we have our priorities, because we all understand that 99% plus of all cases will be investigated and prosecuted by my office, while the most important crimes will be prosecuted by the ICC.

Actually, the first arrest warrant was fully complementary in its nature, because the ICC’s role is to intervene where national authorities are unwilling or unable to prosecute international crimes. Ukraine is willing and able, but Ukraine, for instance, has no jurisdiction over Vladimir Putin, because he has personal immunity in any national jurisdiction. The first arrest warrant is fully complementary in its nature.

We have established task forces with the team of Prosecutor Khan. I will not name specific ties, because it is a matter of the independence of their investigation, but what is most important is that we have priorities. We work hard to prepare more and more cases. We are not leaving previous cases, so they are ongoing, and they are developing, and we have plans for next year.

I hope that the world will see fruitful results of our unique and, I would say, unprecedented cooperation with the ICC.

Just to point out, the first arrest warrant was as a result of five months of intensive work of the investigators of the ICC with enormous support of our authorities, including my office, in order to present them with evidence and all the necessary information. We are working with the same speed and with the same level of cooperation, and this is actually a unique example of how national authorities are cooperating with the ICC, which gives us an opportunity to deliver justice on an international level in time while the war is ongoing. This is very important for victims and survivors.

Senator Gerba: Thank you.

Senator Coyle: Thank you, again, to Prosecutor General Kostin for being with us. Congratulations to you on your very innovative work in a whole variety of areas. It is really setting a whole new standard and one that I think is important for us to understand.

I have a question, and it will probably belie some of my own ignorance. I’m curious what the status of the Wagner Group is now, and what are you seeing, if anything, of other mercenary groups out of Russia and, perhaps, with people from other places? I’m curious about an update on that.

Then I wonder if there is any differentiation in terms of how you deal with perpetrators of war crimes — including, as you call it, the mother of all crimes, the crime of aggression — for those who are from mercenary organizations versus the formal Russian government. Although we know they’re doing the bidding of the formal Russian government, I’m curious how that is handled.

Mr. Kostin: Thank you for that question.

First of all, we have several investigations against the members of the so-called Wagner Group and other mercenary companies, which we believe are part of the Russian armed forces.

Coming back to the activity of the Wagner Group, which is used by the Russian authorities as an instrument of the Russian armed forces, it was divided into two main directions. First, they were just using them on the front line, and for that reason, we treat them as combatants, those who were part of the Russian armed forces.

It’s a long, I would say, very deep legal discussion in which we also involve a lot of international experts to help us create this legal infrastructure for such mercenaries as a part of the Russian army, but it is our firm belief that those who were fighting on the front line and who were included in the command chain of the Russian army are treated by us as combatants.

The other members of the Wagner Group who committed very cruel and brutal war crimes in the occupied territories and terrorized the civilian population, they, of course, are prosecuted by us for the commission of international crimes.

This is where we are at the moment. With the Wagner Group, our understanding is that — taking decisions on the international level — the Wagner Group is an international terrorist organization. This is extremely important, because they were not only supported by the Russian government, but we all remember the official statement of the President of Russia, Putin, that Wagner was financed by funds out of the Russian budget. But they also financed themselves by their illegal activities in other parts of the world, creating threats to global security in Africa and Latin America and other places.

We understand that groups such as Wagner Group are a threat to international world security and order, and we need, I would say, a very firm position of all of our friends and allies in order to combat their activity not only in Ukraine but also in the other parts of the world, because they earn illegal funds somewhere, and they finance their activity in Ukraine.

Senator Coyle: Thank you very much.

Mr. Kostin: Actually, one more suggestion. This year we have also issued a suspicion to Yevgeny Prigozhin. We don’t know if he is still alive, because there is different information. But this was done in February for the commission of international crimes.

Senator Coyle: Thank you.

The Chair: Thank you very much.

Senator Woo: Good evening, Prosecutor General.

What is your estimate of the price tag for rebuilding Ukraine, and what assurances or commitments have you received from Western allies and other non-combatants to help Ukraine in its rebuilding above and beyond the assets of Russia that may be seized and repurposed by countries that are able to do that?

Mr. Kostin: Thank you for your question.

The latest report, which was actually done several months ago, the latest estimation by the World Bank Group is about $411 billion in damage and losses caused by Russian aggression to Ukraine. We understand that the actual figure could be higher, because this does not include the individual claims of the victims and survivors.

From my point of view, the priority use of Russian funds — which should be seized and used as compensation for Ukraine — should be the victims and survivors of this war. So relatives who lost their beloved members of their families, those who were wounded, who were tortured, who were humiliated and all other victims and survivors should receive their compensation by the assets of the perpetrator. This will be a restoration of justice from the civil point of view.

We are very keen on insisting on the seizure of not only assets of private persons — and we commend Canada as one of the leaders of this process with specific legislation and now some trials ongoing against so-called Russian oligarchs to seize their funds. We understand that the seizure of these funds is not enough, even to compensate the victims and survivors.

We understand that Russia, as an aggressor state, should be held liable by confiscating their sovereign assets with full understanding of the legal constraints. Our position is that if we all believe in justice, and understand that justice should be restored, Ukrainians and Ukraine should receive funds to compensate damage caused by Russia and to rebuild our country, which is being destroyed by Russian aggression. Countries should make brave decisions and start the confiscation — seizure — of Russian sovereign assets. Once again, I will mention the bill that is in the Canadian Parliament. We have very fruitful discussions with the United States. We understand that the European Union is a little bit back on this track, but they are looking very attentively at the legal structure, which could be supported by Canadian and U.S. parliaments in order to allow the seizure of sovereign assets.

Our understanding is that at some stage, these assets should be seized and should be sent to Ukraine. However, what is really important is that this year, we created the first level of a compensation mechanism, which is the international Register of Damage, which is managed by an international board. The second level is the compensation commission, which will be created with the same rules — once again, independent, transparent and managed only by an international board. The commission will decide whom to pay what amount of money. The next level is the compensation fund. Once again, it’s an international organization where all countries who seize Russian assets will transfer funds in order for them to be transferred by compensation.

So we are very transparent, and we are very open to the international community because we understand that we need justice to be served in an absolutely transparent way. Therefore, I think that at some stage, we will win this discussion, and governments and parliaments will follow their political — I would say — obligations or political statements better when they say that Ukraine needs to be rebuilt and restored by the funds of the aggressor state.

The Chair: Thank you very much.

Senator Kutcher: Thank you very much, Prosecutor General. I have one question, and it’s on building cases and prosecution — but it’s on two different components.

The first part is this: How do you build cases and prosecute issues about cultural genocide as a war crime? About two weeks ago, the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization, or UNESCO, noted that over 300 sites of Ukrainian heritage were destroyed or significantly damaged. How do you deal with that kind of case building and prosecution?

The second part of my question on case building and prosecution relates to the Kadyrovites and the prosecution of Ramzan Kadyrov, which is on the Chechen side. How does that work in terms of building on the Chechen component?

Mr. Kostin: First of all, thank you for your question about cultural genocide. It’s one of the avenues of our accountability web where we are concentrating our efforts just at the moment. I am looking at the possibility of creating once again a special unit of prosecutors who will be specialized in cultural genocide. It’s quite a large work on the crimes against the cultural heritage of Ukraine. We now have two main directions of this work. First is the damage and destruction of cultural objects. We are documenting each and every case, focusing on the elements of the acts of committing specific war crimes. The second thing will be to calculate the damage in order to include them in the system of reparations, which I already mentioned. The third step will be to find evidence that specific attacks against the cultural heritage of Ukraine were done with the specific intent not only to just destroy it but to destroy it as cultural heritage of Ukraine.

The second part of this is our work to prevent and to fight against the illicit trading of stolen cultural heritage. We are now creating partnerships with international institutions. At the moment, the most important are the Federal Bureau of Investigation, or FBI, Europol and Eurojust because they are already tracking the situation on the markets in order to find the elements of cultural heritage that appear on the so-called black market. We have already had several pieces returned to Ukraine, that were found and captured by authorities. The last situation was in the United States. Their customs captured some part of our cultural heritage that was stolen from Ukrainian museums in the occupied territories. We will follow this track in this direction, as I mentioned.

For the documentation of the crimes of others — you mentioned Kadyrov and other representatives of Chechnya. For us, I would say they are members of the Russian aggression machine — the Russian criminal machine. Therefore, we are documenting each and every case where representatives of this group of Russian people are involved. For us, they are the same war criminals as many others from Russia.

Senator Kutcher: Thank you.

The Chair: Thank you very much.

We’re going to move to round two in a moment, but I would like to ask a question as well. Prosecutor General Kostin, you are doing something very unique. You were operating an office in wartime and — in a sense, of course — in real time as you open investigations, and there are thousands of them. Do you feel you are well enough resourced? How does your resource base work? That would also include training for your staff. Is there enough being done?

Mr. Kostin: Thank you for your question. Hardly anyone from Ukraine can say that we are equipped well enough in all dimensions. You mentioned training. For the last year, we have created great partnerships with many of our partners and friends, and we are talking about hundreds of prosecutors and investigators who pass through substantial training in different types of investigation of war crimes. In specialized war crimes, we have a lot of prosecutors and investigators who pass training in very specific topics: conflict-related sexual violence, crimes against children at war and environmental crimes. I did mention also that we are investigating cyberattacks as war crimes — the first time in history — as well as environmental war crimes and ecocide. Again, this is the first time in world history. Training in these areas is very important because we are creating practices and standards that are absent on the international level.

I will also mention a new type of interrogation, which is called investigative interviews. It’s a different type of interrogation that allows for the witnesses of war crimes to feel more comfortable when dealing with investigators, which gives us more information and more details.

From the point of view of the field missions of our colleagues, we are grateful to our partners from France, Slovakia, Poland, Spain, Belgium and Netherlands who have several missions on the ground and are not only helping us investigate specific types of war crimes or specific places of mass atrocities but are also bringing us specific equipment — especially forensic. We need more forensic equipment. We need more of it because it makes our work simpler and faster. This is very important. They also brought specific equipment for DNA analysis and for creating 3D models of the buildings destroyed by Russian attacks. They are also teaching our prosecutors and investigators.

This work is very substantial. We need more support, and if Canada is ready to send field missions to Ukraine, we will be very grateful for that. Forensic equipment is something that we really need, especially for the investigations of environmental crimes. We need it more and we need it in time. Thank you.

The Chair: Thank you. Colleagues, we only have a few minutes left. What I propose is that you ask your questions in sequence and we’ll allow the Prosecutor General to respond as he sees fit to the entire menu that you will put before him, if that is all right.

Prosecutor General, that means a lot of questions coming at you all at once, but I sense that you are used to that.

Senator R. Patterson: We know that Ukraine is not only fighting a war while trying to maintain a country, I would suggest that you are setting the standard for the future when it comes to war crimes and what it really means. We thank you for that.

I also know that not only are you fighting a war against a great aggressor, but you are working very hard to deal with internal challenges that any country has, even during war, such as internal criminal activity and corruption.

I’m wondering if you could give us a brief overview of how Ukraine is managing to deal with this and juggling it with all the other priorities you have.

Senator MacDonald: Yes. Mr. Kostin, according to the BBC, Ukraine has regained territory from Russia on the eastern bank of the Dnipro River. With this access to the river, does Ukraine expect the equipment and machinery to be more accessible to soldiers on the front lines in the counteroffensive? What is the overall impact of this development?

Senator Coyle: You mentioned environmental crimes and ecocide, and specifically highlighted the issue of nuclear power and the vulnerability issues there.

Could you speak to us in more detail on what the situation is currently with the nuclear power infrastructure in Ukraine and how that is relating to these environmental and ecocide crimes?

Senator Kutcher: My question is about the abducted children, not only in terms of the genocidal aspects of that, but concerns about human trafficking. Can you share further concerns about human trafficking and what international organizations can do on that front?

The Chair: Prosecutor General, you have the floor for four easy questions.

Mr. Kostin: Yes, thank you.

First, the question regarding machinery; I would ask, if possible, to ask this question to the ambassador, as she is more involved in military assistance issues.

For the crime of ecocide and nuclear power plants, of course, the occupation of the Zaporizhzhia power plant, which was also preceded by the missile attacks on this facility, it created a real danger for a nuclear catastrophe which could threaten and damage not only Ukraine, but territory far beyond Ukraine because the Zaporizhzhia power plant, which is at the moment under occupation by Russia, is the biggest nuclear power plant in Europe.

Let’s not forget that during the first months of the war, before Kyiv region was liberated, Russia occupied the Chernobyl power plant station, though it is closed but is still a dangerous facility.

They have also attacked the neutron facility in Kharkiv, which is a scientific institution in Kharkiv where some part of nuclear equipment is located. This neutron facility was attacked several times by Russian missiles. All these, of course, create potential danger and threat, not only to Ukraine, but also to Europe and far beyond.

Of course, we are investigating such cases as ecocide because they potentially could create environmental catastrophe.

From the point of view of internal challenges, yes, we are running the country. We have no additional resources of law enforcement agencies. We cannot extend the number of investigators and prosecutors. Our challenge is to allocate enough resources to meet internal challenges.

You rightly mentioned our fight against corruption. You hear a lot of cases, but it’s not because we have more corruption; it’s because our strong position is to react on every fact. Today, this is not public yet, there was another operation by the National Anti-Corruption Bureau, or NABU, and the Specialised Anti‑Corruption Prosecutor’s Office, or SAPO, wherein several judges of the Kyiv Court of Appeal were in court, uncovered for bribery.

We are fighting corruption at every level, from high levels — which is judges, members of the Parliament. While I was in Canada, the operation of NABU and SAPO was undertaken with my supervision, because as the Prosecutor General, I supervise all cases where members of the Parliament are involved. Two members of the Parliament were uncovered for corruption and informed on suspicion.

It’s not only high-level corruption. We are also fighting against corruption at the middle and low levels, on the ground, because people in communities are also not happy when some police officer, customs or tax inspector, or any other local official or municipalities, try to embezzle their funds. This work is, I would say, holistic. We fight corruption at every level. When you see more cases, it’s not because we have more corruption. It’s because our reaction is much more intensive and extended.

Corruption is not the only issue — we are also fighting against illegal influence of oligarchs. I can mention that three people who are known as oligarchs are now indicted in Ukraine for the first time in Ukrainian history. Two of them are abroad; we are fighting to extradite them from Europe to Ukraine. One is in detention in Kyiv.

We are also fighting against organized crime, because organized crime is dealing with drug production and trafficking, not only production and trafficking in Ukraine but abroad. We started to find this year, that more cases of drugs like cocaine and heroin are coming to Ukraine from European ports.

We are intensively working with our colleagues in Europol and Eurojust. We have a lot of joint operations during this year. It’s our commitment to fight, to combat illegal production and trafficking of chemicals and other types of drugs in Ukraine.

Another element of organized crime which we are dealing with now is the work of so-called call centres. These are the systems where people steal funds from banking cards and other types of fraud on the internet. We understand that some of the victims of these fraud actions are not only in Ukraine, but in other countries where we cooperate intensively with Europol and other national institutions.

It’s not the only thing we are doing. We are fighting and trying to prevent a rise in domestic violence. You understand that people are in stress. We’re now in the 16 days of prevention of gender-based violence and gender-based crime. It’s our intensive work with the Ministry of Internal Affairs and the national police to combat domestic violence.

You mentioned the issue of human trafficking; it’s one of our priorities. We are working closely with all institutions in Europe, because millions of Ukrainians are relegated to Europe and to other places, the United States and Canada as well. We are working closely in order to be sure that our people, especially children who are the most vulnerable, will not be used for human trafficking.

Now, the situation is more or less stable because we have very good cooperation with national authorities of all of the countries where our children and people have relocated. We understand that the risk is in place. That’s why we are also allocating our resources to combat and prevent human trafficking of Ukrainians and Ukrainian children.

I missed the question about the treatment of prisoners of war: Russians, Wagner and other combatants. I want to assure that it’s our commitment to ensure fair treatment and a fair trial to all combatants and all prisoners of war who are in our possession. In order to ensure a fair trial for Russian perpetrators — it doesn’t matter if they are from Wagner or other parts of the Russian military machine — a year ago, we started the project of systemic and substantial training for prosecutors and judges who try these cases, and for defence attorneys from the free legal aid system who are defending Russian perpetrators, to ensure impartiality and a high professional level of all elements of the so-called judiciary triangle. It’s our commitment to ensure a fair trial to everyone, because we are different from Russia, and we will do it.

The Chair: Thank you very much, Prosecutor General Kostin. On behalf of the committee, I would like to express our gratitude for you taking the time to meet with us this evening or in the middle of the night as it is for you in Kyiv. We appreciate that. We have learned a lot, and those across the country who are watching us tonight might feel the same way.

We thank you. We wish you well in your task, and we’re honoured to have had you with us this evening.

Mr. Kostin: Thank you so much, and thank you for your support.

The Chair: We are honoured to welcome back to the committee — I should say for the third time — Her Excellency Yuliya Kovaliv, Ambassador, Embassy of Ukraine to Canada. Welcome, Ambassador. Thank you for being with us. We are ready to hear your opening remarks. You know the pattern. You’ll get questions from colleagues.

Please, you have the floor.

Her Excellency Yuliya Kovaliv, Ambassador, Embassy of Ukraine to Canada, as an individual: Thank you, honourable chair and honourable members of the committee. It’s a pleasure and honour to be at the committee today.

I gave testimony here in May. Despite the continuation of unjustified and unprovoked aggression of the Russian Federation against Ukraine, I would like to inform you that our country, along with the strong support we feel from Canada and from our allies around the world, stands firmly against the Russian invasion and Russian terrorist attacks.

As we are talking today, people who live in the six regions of Kyiv are feeling the alarm notice, meaning that there is a risk of another missile attack. It was, actually, probably the territory of one fourth of Ukraine.

Just recently, Ukraine commemorated the 90th anniversary of the Holodomor Famine-Genocide of 1932-33, when millions of Ukrainians became victims of the artificial famine that was orchestrated by the Soviet Stalin regime in order to suppress Ukrainians and, ultimately, to eliminate Ukraine and Ukrainians from the map.

We are very grateful that in May 2008, Canada was among the first countries to recognize Holodomor in Ukraine as an act of genocide against Ukrainian people by the relevant law, and that now the first Saturday of November is designated in Canada as a day of remembrance of the Holodomor victims in Ukraine.

Ninety years later, this unpunished evil returned to Ukrainian land with new suffering and a new genocidal war. Putin’s messages are the same as they were during the Stalin regime: mass murder, terror and deportation of Ukrainians.

On the 90th anniversary of Holodomor, Russia launched 75 Iranian-made Shahed drones at Ukraine, precisely on the eve of this date, and 74 of the drones were destroyed by our air defence. Unfortunately, the debris of them destroyed a kindergarten in Kyiv. I would like to share with you pictures of the results of this massive drone attack on the peaceful kindergarten where just a few hours before, kids were staying while their parents were at work.

On November 11, after 52 days of war, Russia resumed missile attacks against Kyiv. According to statistics alone, over the past 12 months, Russia has launched more than 300 cruise missiles of various types, 15 ballistic missiles, and almost 400 drone attacks in the direction of the capital of Ukraine.

Since the start of the invasion, Russian occupiers have launched more than 3,000 Iranian drones against critical as well as civilian infrastructure in Ukraine. During the last winter, we faced 33 massive missile attacks and almost 50% of the energy infrastructure of the country was destroyed.

With the support of our partners during the summer period, we were able to restore electricity, water and heating supplies in almost every region. Unfortunately, why I am sharing these figures with you is because we are expecting that Russia will continue missile attacks specifically on the critical infrastructure, one more time during the winter period, with the same goal: to deprive Ukrainian people from their basic needs, to destroy morale, and to hurt the country and its logistics. They failed last winter, and we are confident that they will fail with this attempt this winter.

Russia also faced significant losses on the battlefield. Over 5,500 tanks, 10,300 armoured vehicles, 323 aircraft, 324 helicopters, 22 warships, 910 multiple-launch rocket systems, or MLRS, and more than 327,000 personnel. These are the losses of Russia since the full-scale invasion.

In every normal, democratic country, any democratic leader would not be able to wage war with such huge losses, including people’s lives, but what do we see? Putin and his regime do not count any of the human lives of its own citizens.

On November 15, the Russian Duma adopted the budget for 2024-26. The military budget was increased over 30% for 2024 compared to 2023, and around 40% of that budget will go to Russian defence and law enforcement.

Russia is continuing to increase its military capabilities to wage the war, and we need to be altogether ready and take action.

As we face the hard winter and try to protect the civilian infrastructure, we need the air defence systems — the Patriot system, NASAMS, and IRST — to protect Ukrainian cities, infrastructure and the sea ports, and much more.

In terms of military support, our goal is to build cooperation with the defence sector companies of our partners and also to be able to maintain and to produce additional military capacities inside our country. On September 29, the first big international forum of defence industries took place in Kyiv. Over 250 companies from 30 countries were brought together with the aim of building a strong partnership, both for the benefit of our partners’ defence sector companies, and to increase the production of weapons in Ukraine that are needed to stand firm against Russian aggression. We also welcome the Canadian defence industry to join this call and build closer cooperation and relations.

On our way to NATO, we started negotiations with the U.S., the U.K., Canada, Japan, France and over 29 countries around the security guarantees and arrangements. This is another long‑term perspective before Ukraine joins NATO, and we welcome Canada to be among the top five countries with whom we started these negotiations, and we expect to proceed to the second round soon.

Russia still uses Ukrainian grain as a weapon. Nothing changed from 90 years ago during the Holodomor time. Russian missiles turned against shipping in the Black Sea continues. On November 8, Russia attacked the civilian vessel operated under the flag of Liberia. As a result, one crew member was killed and three crew members and were wounded. Even in these difficult times, Ukraine is ready to remain a partner for global food security. Despite the minefields, hard winter and logistical challenges, Ukraine has harvested 70 million tonnes of crops. This year the harvest amounted almost 75.9 million tonnes of crops. Ukraine still remains one of the biggest producers of grain in the world, and we are ready to continue food exports to the global market.

With the support of many of our partners — even when Russia withdrew itself from the Black Sea Grain Initiative — Ukraine has continued to export grain through the Black Sea maritime corridor, and we will continue that. To do this, however, we need more air defence to protect port facilities.

Grain from the Ukraine Black Sea Initiative that was launched last year also supported the export of 170,000 tonnes of wheat to the countries who mostly need it: Ethiopia, Somalia, Yemen, Kenya and many more. Ukraine, with the help of Canada, the U.S. and other partners, continue to provide these countries with much needed food.

The Chair: Ambassador, I’m very sorry to interrupt you, but I think we have to move on to questions, and I’m sure that some of the things you still had to tell us in your statement will come out during the question period.

Ms. Kovaliv: Thank you.

Senator Richards: Thank you very much for being here. I will talk about air support. Your forces are reported to be east of the Dnieper River, so you’ve retaken territory with your summer push, but without air support and without air superiority, I’m sure the Russians will try to retake that ground next spring. How will your forces be able to sustain the offensive without air support? Who is training your pilots? What countries are training your pilots now, ma’am?

Ms. Kovaliv: Thank you. Indeed, if we look since the very beginning of the full-scale invasion, contrary to many NATO operations, Ukraine never had superiority in the air. Not only does this create huge damages for us to be able to move quickly on the battlefield, but Russia has also used war planes to launch missiles all over Ukrainian territory. That’s why Ukraine has been asking for many months to get fighter jets. Today we have the political decision to send Ukraine F-16 fighter jets. Of course, for that we started the training of the pilots in those countries that have the F-16 fighter jets. We hope that the training will not take as much time as usual in normal circumstances. Ukraine is interested in making best efforts to get these fighter jets as soon as possible.

Also, there are the countries that joined the fighter jet coalition, and we are grateful that Canada was among those countries that joined the fighter jet coalition. We hope for additional help in training of the pilots, as well as help with the infrastructure for the fighter jets. That is an important pillar to help us as soon as possible to get the F-16 fighter jets in Ukraine.

Senator Richards: How many pilots do you have in the air now, and what are they flying?

Ms. Kovaliv: Unfortunately, I don’t, as of now, possess the information on how many pilots we have and how much training they have.

Senator Richards: That’s pretty sensitive information anyway, but you do have some in the air now?

Ms. Kovaliv: I don’t possess the information of how many we now have in the air.

Senator Richards: Okay, thank you very much.

Senator R. Patterson: Ambassador, it’s very good to see you again. I would like to expand on Senator Richards’s question, and it really revolves around survival of Ukraine versus victory in Ukraine. You’ve given us some fabulous examples of what Ukraine continues to contribute toward the world — even during war — of feeding the hungry in places that are chronically hungry; but it is all through the lens of we have managed to create safe access through the Black Sea. Your ability to be successful, to have true victory, will be a large challenge, and certainly with the rest of the world starting to get distracted, shall we say. It’s very important for the world to understand that victory in Ukraine is actually essential to global security.

Can you talk a bit more about the key messages that allied nations need to hear, to understand that survival isn’t good enough, that it’s about victory?

Ms. Kovaliv: Thank you, senator. This is a very good question. Historically we need to look at what Russia has done and has remained unpunished. When they invaded Georgia, and occupied part of the territory, there were deep concerns. Russia didn’t stop. Then we saw Russia involved in Syria. There were deep concerns. Russia did not stop. Russia occupied Crimea and part of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions. There were deep concerns. Russia did not stop. Then Russia went with a full-scale invasion of Ukraine. Was the idea to occupy Kyiv, and put in a puppet government and eliminate real Ukrainian independence? Because of the bravery of all Ukrainians and, first of all, our armed forces and the strong support of the allies — really strong support — Russian troops are now in the east, not in Kyiv and not near the eastern NATO flank.

I think we need to also realize that Russia is continuing to expand its military capabilities. If you look at the figures — and this is why I brought the figures to you today — Russia is investing 40% of its budget expenditures to the defence and law-enforcement sector. Understand that the issue of Russia building its military capability is not only about the war in Ukraine. It’s about security in the Arctic. It’s about the security of the eastern NATO flank, and it’s about Russian operations in the Global South. It’s also about Russia building — as we could call it — the axis of evil with Iran and North Korea, which creates a lot of security and geopolitical risks for many countries, even those who are thousands of kilometres from the physical border with Russia.

Senator MacDonald: Your Excellency, it’s great to see you again.

In your experience as ambassador to Canada from Ukraine, do you think the United Nations has been helpful or indifferent in bringing the Russian Federation to justice for their illegal invasion of Ukraine? What should Canadians think of the role of the United Nations in these circumstances?

Ms. Kovaliv: Thank you for the question. That question should probably be more properly asked of my colleague, Ukraine’s representative to the UN. What I could say is that the United Nations is also the representation of the position of each and every country. When we see the world in support of resolutions that call Russia to withdraw their troops from Ukrainian territory, and we see 186 votes, it means this is sending a strong political message of support and unity. If we see the support to create the Registry of Damages, which the Prosecutor General was talking about, this is also sending a message. But whether this institution helped to prevent the war, I think we are all witnessing it now.

Senator M. Deacon: Thank you for joining us again today in person. We really appreciate it.

I’m listening to a number of things and the numbers you’ve shared with us today, and I’m curious about the present volume or support of ammunition in your fight against Russia. The common concern we’ve heard about in the conflict has been that allied countries may not be able to keep up the supply and pace that Ukraine is looking for or is needed. President Zelenskyy has made overtures several times to defence companies to attract investment into Ukraine and obtain some degree of self‑sufficiency. I’m wondering how that has gone — not only to produce more equipment but also to be able to man and repair equipment within the country.

I’m wondering if you can share any updated information with us. Has that effort been successful?

Ms. Kovaliv: Thank you. Indeed, first of all, ammunition is something that is essentially needed every day. Every day, we’re using thousands of different calibres of ammunition on the battlefield. Russia is also fighting back. With the steady supply of ammunition, it’s crucially important for us to continue, day by day and metre by metre, to liberate and protect our territory. Of course, we need to ramp up the production of ammunition, both in Ukraine and also in our partner countries. It’s crucially needed. What we are seeing now is that it can only be done through a partnership between the defence sector, companies and producers. None of them can do it alone. The government cannot do it alone. This kind of partnership is important in each and every NATO country.

We are doing what we can in Ukraine to produce more ammunition, and we have had some successes. However, of course, we see what Russia does from scratch. For example, last year, Russia was not able to produce drones. Today, Russia produces drones that are very similar to Iranian-made Shahed drones, with which they are attacking Ukraine. I think this is something that, on the one hand, should worry us all together but, on the other hand, is a call to action. We need to be quicker.

Senator M. Deacon: Thank you. Speaking of that — I think the drones are a good example — have weapons deliveries in the last five or six weeks from the U.S. been interrupted at all through the commitments of the U.S. in supplying Israel with arms?

Ms. Kovaliv: No, but of course, U.S. military support is important for us. Of course, we count on the continuation of the support and the support of the supplementary budget that will enable sufficient funding to continue to support Ukraine with the needed military.

Senator M. Deacon: Thank you.

Senator Ravalia: Welcome once again, and thank you for your resilience through these incredibly difficult times.

I was wondering what the situation is on the ground with respect to health and in particular mental health. Obviously, Ukrainians are dealing with the fallout of casualties from the war — the wounded, et cetera — and the trauma of these ongoing, incoming missiles, et cetera. Is Ukraine coping with its current load of medical crises or medical pressures?

I’d also be curious to know how you’re coping with the mental health aspect, from children upward.

Ms. Kovaliv: Thank you. In terms of health care, the health care infrastructure suffered along with the educational infrastructure, as well as housing and [Technical difficulties]. When Russia launches their missiles, they often do it precisely for the social infrastructure. We estimate the damage to the health care system is over $2 billion already. That is the physical part.

In terms of the mental health part, this is a big and new challenge for Ukrainians and the veterans who are coming back from the front lines. Many of them, unfortunately, have lost limbs or were significantly wounded, and their rehabilitation is of great importance for us as they are Ukrainian heroes. We really appreciate the partnership we started to build with Canadian institutions that are working with veterans on the mental health side. Just recently, we signed the MOU to exchange the resources and approaches of how to deal with it. Because on such a scale, it is, unfortunately, quite new to Ukraine.

Also, if we look on the broader scale, every Ukrainian suffers during the war. Every civilian suffers during the war. That’s why we launched a big program with the support of the first lady, which in English is called the “How Are You campaign,” which is an educational and encouraging program that builds the rehabilitation centres where we train the doctors and specialists to deal with the mental health issues. We are very much welcoming all the support and sharing of their experience with us, because this will be an issue that Ukraine will be dealing with for years ahead.

Senator Ravalia: Thank you.

Senator Coyle: Welcome back, Your Excellency Kovaliv. It’s wonderful to see you again, and we’re sorry to hear about the ongoing suffering of the Ukrainian people. It’s been going on much too long.

You answered my colleague Senator MacDonald’s question about the United Nations. I’m interested to know whether, currently, there’s been any progress made with some of the countries which have not come on board as one would like them to. We know that Vladimir Putin was in China for the Belt and Road gathering. There were many African leaders there. Some African leaders have not come out in the way one would hope. India seems a little on the fence. China is another issue.

Are you free to speak at all on the progress that could be made? What could be done to help make more progress in these areas?

Ms. Kovaliv: Thank you. I probably can’t speak specifically on each and every country, but I will brief you, first of all, on the importance of our Ukrainian diplomatic efforts to work with the countries of the Global South especially. We are increasing our diplomatic relations and increasing the dialogue we have with government-to-government, with civil society and with education on the parliamentary level. This is one of the big diplomatic priorities for Ukraine.

Of course, we also value the joint efforts with our partners because Ukraine does not have the diplomatic presence in each and every country. This kind of partnership is very valuable for us because it helps to deliver the message.

In many of those countries, traditionally, Russia was present with huge propaganda always there, with military units always there, or arms supply and other tools of Russian influence. But I think we are together in having these advocacy campaigns. We’re also doing a lot, and the president is doing a lot. Just recently, he was talking to many journalists from African countries to send a message about Ukraine. African leaders also visited Ukraine this summer.

The dialogue is going on. We have more and more representatives who are with us at the table during the meetings with our Network for Strategic Analysis, or NSA, advisers on the peace formula and other important discussions. Also important are the representatives, not only from allied countries but also from those countries at the table to whom we bring our arguments to. We want to show the reality of the war. That’s why we welcome many of them visiting Kyiv.

I can share that, during this summer, when African leaders were in Ukraine, in Kyiv, Russia launched ballistic missiles over Kyiv.

The Chair: Thank you very much.

[Translation]

Senator Gerba: Welcome back, Your Excellency Kovaliv. It’s always a pleasure to have you.

You rightly pointed out that no democratic country can take so many losses, whether human, financial or military, and continue to invest as Russia does. In September, Russia increased its military budget by 70% to 6% of its gross domestic product. That’s an enormous budget. Perhaps this is due to the fact that, in this country, we don’t see this war going on in Ukraine given the propaganda and complete lack of freedom of the press.

The United States recently revealed that North Korea has delivered thousands of containers of arms and ammunition to Russia, while the European community is unlikely to be able to deliver the millions of munitions promised in the spring to Ukraine.

Your Excellency, we wonder whether U.S. financial support, which also seems to be in doubt for domestic political reasons, will in turn have any impact on what’s happening right now in Ukraine. Do you find the latest news troubling? Will it change the course of events?

Is there anything we can do? In particular, is there anything else Canada can do to strengthen its support for Ukraine?

[English]

Ms. Kovaliv: Thank you for that question. Of course, any additional supply of weapons to Russia is a big concern, as well as the cases where Western weapons are being transferred to Russia against the sanctions. The sanctions of conventions and prevention are of great importance for all of us together.

We briefly touched today on ammunition. Yes, this is also a big priority. We understand from working with the defence secretaries, as well, that they need a longer-term commitment to ramp up their production. This is the dialogue in each and every country.

Providing Ukraine a longer-term financing instrument of support which can then be transferred to longer-term contracts for the defence sector, for Canadian defence companies, for Canadian producers of ammunition, of armoured vehicles, this can help them to quickly ramp up and also produce ammunition, armoured vehicles, which are both needed for the Canadian Armed Forces to replenish their stocks and also to help supply Ukraine with all this needed military support.

Actually, the longer-term budget commitment is very important for each and every NATO country to ramp up production, to address the challenges which we all face now.

Senator Coyle: Thank you.

Senator Boniface: Your Excellency, thank you for being here again. Thank you for always being available to meet with our committee.

I wanted to talk about winter coming, particularly around issues of food, water, fuel. What is your level of preparation at this time? Are you getting the assistance you need, given the challenges that winter will create?

Ms. Kovaliv: Thank you for this question. Indeed, last winter was hard. We expect this winter will not be easy because part of our electricity generation was destroyed. Ukraine will not rebuild that coal-power generation because we are moving toward the greener economy. Indeed, when it comes to the power grids, it is important that we put in a lot of effort to rebuild them both with our budget support and with the support of other countries.

I thank the Government of Canada for helping last winter through the World Bank Group, by providing C$112 million to help to rebuild the grid around Kyiv. The bigger program was done through the World Bank Group. We also have other financial institutions, like the European Investment Bank, and the International Bank for Reconstruction and Development, or IBRD — as well as the U.S. government, helping us, specifically, in the energy area to quickly rebuild the infrastructure.

Taking this opportunity, I would like to thank those Canadian companies who answered the call and donated some of the needed equipment to their Ukrainian colleagues to be able to repair both the transmission and distribution grid. We do value this support which, frankly speaking, if we asked a year ago, two years ago, the engineers would say it does not fit; it does not work; we have a different grid system. But when you don’t have any other choice, and usually the new equipment takes years to build, we managed to use even North American equipment to help and rebuild the Ukrainian grid.

Of course, the key thing to survive the winter is the air defence. As we saw in Kyiv, even with the 75 drones overnight, that’s really big. Seventy-four of them were destroyed. Ballistic missiles, many of them have been intercepted because there is an air defence.

Of course, there are many other cities across Ukraine that do not have sufficient air defence. To compare, one air defence missile could cost from to $1 million to $4 million, depending on what specific missile. One single attack can destroy critical infrastructure which can cost $20 million, $30 million. Economically, it’s better to help us with air defence than facing millions of dollars of losses and having to rebuild the damaged infrastructure from scratch.

The Chair: Thank you very much.

Senator Kutcher: Thank you very much, Your Excellency. I would urge forbearance on the part of you and the committee as this is a strategic question that will take time to ask.

I want to talk about coercive nuclear escalation, which is the threat of the use of tactical nuclear weapons on the battlefield to deter attacks on weaker conventional forces. It is a strategy that NATO used with success to contain territorial aggression of the Soviet Union. The tables have turned somewhat.

Russia, as I understand it, has about 2,000 tactical nuclear weapons. Current conventional Russian forces are unlikely to defeat Ukraine. But, and here is the problem, additional support from the West that Ukraine needs to defeat Russian forces can now bring Russia to use the threat of coercive nuclear escalation to limit the support that the West gives Ukraine.

This is the dilemma.

How does this strategic scenario impact the West’s increasing and necessary support for Ukraine? What’s that fine line? What challenges does this threat have when seeking a just peace and the return of occupied territory to Ukraine from Russia?

Ms. Kovaliv: Thank you for this question.

I would start answering it coming back to this particular period of time two years ago when a few of our allies were starting to talk loudly about the potential Russian invasion.

We need to understand the Russian strategy. Russia is trying to play on weaknesses. At that time, if you remember, Ukraine was asking for preemptive sanctions and showing that solidarity was standing with Ukraine.

We can guess now that Russia calculated that would be no strong Western support. There would be no strong Ukrainian resistance, probably that Ukrainian government will be quickly removed and that Russian troops with the smart holiday uniform would march in Kyiv on May 9. That was a big Russian miscalculation.

We all need to realize that Putin was delivering this message to scare decision makers on how quickly to supply military support.

What we all see with our dialogues on supplying Ukraine more than weapons, whether it was tanks, fighter jets or the other types of NATO standard weapons, a lot of discussion was around the fear of further escalation.

We are already more than a year and a half in the war. When these discussions about the potential escalation were happening, Ukrainian soldiers were dying on the battlefield, to be precise with the reality.

In parallel, Russian soldiers were building trenches, fortifications and mining the territory. It’s becoming very hard now to move further because there are other lines and territories in the front line. Each and every metre is mined.

We need to be very realistic that Russia needs to be defeated on the battlefield. All the sovereign territory of Ukraine needs to be regained, because what we see will be a guarantee for security, not only for Ukraine and NATO, but I think even broader if we look at the Indo-Pacific.

Senator, we were all in Halifax two weeks ago at the international security forum. There were many discussions about the interconnection between what is happening today in Ukraine and what is happening in other parts of the world. Unfortunately, the impunity still — we are working for it to end — of Putin and his regime, and the war crimes that they have committed, cannot become another normality.

If that becomes another normality, we will, unfortunately, face another not only horrific terroristic attack, but we will have thousands of people suffering and other challenges for security in many other parts of the world.

The Chair: Thank you very much.

Senator R. Patterson: This is going to be precisely about trying to generate the kind of military industrial complex in Ukraine, specifically building your own vehicles and your own ammunition.

What we did hear at the Halifax International Security Forum is the fact that it becomes very challenging to get the technology from donor countries because it’s protected. Can you talk very briefly about that? Is there anything we can do to help encourage countries to safely share their technology with you so you can, in fact, build your own munitions and war machines? Thank you.

Ms. Kovaliv: Thank you. Of course, to build this partnership, we need a strong partner and let’s call it the business case. Ukrainian and Western producers can start. What we can officially say is that we have signed an agreement with Rheinmetall, one of the leading defence producers in the world, to start their project in Ukraine. Many more will come, both as a result of that specific conference.

Next week, there will be a specific conference between the Ukrainian defence sector and U.S. defence sector companies. We feel that there is also the wish of Canadian companies to build this partnership.

What could be done is having in place the defence cooperation agreement that will put a framework for the countries to move further with all of the processes, licences and many more items.

I think we have already shown the world that we can use and quickly learn all the NATO standard weapons. Ukraine, while still not being a member of NATO, probably has the biggest variety of all the NATO standard weapons that NATO countries use.

The Chair: Sometimes it falls to the chair to ask the most indelicate questions in a delicate way. I am going to try.

Since you last appeared here, we have had what could diplomatically be called a number of hiccups in the bilateral relationship. We have had a very high-level and well-publicized visit from your president. Currently, the House of Commons is discussing the updated free-trade agreement that will also eventually — probably — come to this committee. Are we in good shape bilaterally? Are things okay?

Ms. Kovaliv: Yes.

The Chair: Good.

Ms. Kovaliv: Thank you.

On behalf of the Ukrainian government, I would like to thank Canada, the Canadian government and Canadians for all the support that we feel. The people in Ukraine really feel that strong support and strong standing. We also hope the free-trade agreement will be considered in the Senate. We will also feel the support of the Senate of Canada regarding the modernized free‑trade agreement.

The Chair: Thank you very much, Ambassador Kovaliv. On behalf of the committee, I would really like to thank you for being here with us and for taking the time.

If I am correct, is this the tenth time we have discussed Ukraine in this committee. It is an important subject, and it is one that we will continue to return to. Again, we thank you.

Colleagues, we will reconvene tomorrow morning in this room to discuss the situation in Sudan.

(The committee adjourned.)