THE STANDING SENATE COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND INTERNATIONAL TRADE
EVIDENCE
OTTAWA, Wednesday, May 8, 2024
The Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade met with videoconference this day at 4:29 p.m. [ET] to examine and report on Canada’s interests and engagement in Africa.
Senator Peter Harder (Deputy Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Deputy Chair: Good afternoon. My apologies and thank you to our witnesses for waiting while we were in the chamber voting on an important matter. I wish to begin by asking senators to introduce themselves.
[Translation]
Senator Gerba: Amina Gerba, senator from Quebec.
[English]
Senator Ravalia: Mohamed Ravalia, Newfoundland and Labrador. Welcome.
Senator Woo: Yuen Pau Woo, British Columbia.
Senator Coyle: Mary Coyle, Antigonish, Nova Scotia.
Senator M. Deacon: Marty Deacon, Ontario. Welcome.
Senator Boniface: Gwen Boniface, Ontario.
Senator Richards: David Richards, New Brunswick.
The Deputy Chair: I wish to welcome all of you as well as the people across Canada who may be watching us on SenVu.
Colleagues, we are meeting today in continuation of our special study on Canada’s interests and engagement in Africa. Today, we have the pleasure of welcoming Nola Kianza, President and Chief Executive Officer of the Canadian Council on Africa; Souad Elmallem, Chief Executive Officer of 6temik; and, as an individual, Hippolyte Fofack, Parker Fellow, United Nations Sustainable Development Solutions Network, Columbia University.
Thank you for taking the time to be with us, and we look forward to your remarks. We will invite each of the witnesses to make an opening statement as brief as possible — but we do want to hear from you — and we will begin with Mr. Kianza.
Nola Kianza, President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Council on Africa: Honourable chair, senators and members of the committee, thank you very much for this privilege to be here. I say “privilege” because this is an important issue that we are dealing with. I see both houses have been tackling this issue, so this is very important. It is important because the Canadian Council on Africa — the organization that I represent — was established to promote trade and economic development between Canada and the continent of Africa, which is daunting — 54 countries versus one country here, and about 1.2 billion people versus 40 million people respectively. So you can see the situation there.
The way we do our business is that we take trade missions to Africa. We host missions here. We organize conferences, and we try to bring information because, for us, what is business? Business is basically to buy and sell. That’s what it is if we put it very simply.
In order to buy and sell, we need information. We need information about who is buying and who is selling. For us, we came to understand that Africa is a huge market and potential for Canada. We are talking about 60% of arable land on that continent, almost 40% of natural resources on that continent and, as I mentioned, 1.2 billion people. With the signing of the African Continental Free Trade Area, or AfCFTA, Agreement, we are talking about the size of the market GDP being almost $2.4 trillion. This is a very large market.
When we look on the Canadian side, we have had a good relationship with the continent for many years. In Canada, we have expertise and know-how. Canada has expertise in a number of the sectors that Africa is developing. Our organization has the privilege to work across Canada. We have representation across Canada. As we speak, I have my colleagues in Alberta right now who are working with both the provincial and federal as well as the City of Calgary. We have a steering committee there that is working.
I will give you examples of the way we have been working. Initially, we were focused on working only with our members, but now we have been working with other industry associations. Today, as we speak, the Canadian Council on Africa has a partnership with the Toronto International Film Festival, where we are putting up a pavilion for Africa. The Canadian Council on Africa has signed an agreement with Fertilizer Canada to look at the area of agriculture. The Canadian Council on Africa has a relationship with colleges and universities. We work in partnership in Calgary. We have a relationship with the Government of Quebec. We have a relationship with the Government of Manitoba, and the list goes on. We are working across Canada with everyone.
Because of the time limit, I have submitted a number of events that we have done here to showcase the Canadian Council on Africa.
I will mention this: Why Africa? This is a market that we cannot ignore. It is a sizable market. I’m not here to advocate for Africa. I want to make it clear that I’m here to advocate for the Canadian companies, because I believe in what Canadians can offer. We have technology. We have know-how. We have expertise. Our economy here in Canada is made up of the small and the medium. The small are the drivers, and we can understand business with Africa much better. We can deal with Africa more easily.
The situation that we face most of the time here in Canada is that our focus has been in the area of development. We have done really well in the area of development. But where we have lagged is in the area of economic development.
I’m not here to say that we have not done anything. We have done some things. In terms of trade, we are seeing that investment is growing slightly. We have only about 16 embassies, but I think we can do much better.
There are a number of things that we can do. But where do we have an issue here? I think it’s a question of mindset. We have focused too much on development, and we have to look at business now. We have to change the mindset in order to look at how we can address Africa. There is no policy today. It’s because our mindset is still on trying to help. Africa has made it clear to us that they don’t need help. They want to develop their economies, and they are looking to Canada to help them on how they can develop these economies, and that’s basically what I would like to bring here.
The only thing that we need to look at here is that we have to go from pronouncement — my guess is that’s where we have the problem most of the time. When the decisions are made from —
The Deputy Chair: I’m going to have to stop you there. I have given you more than five minutes. I’m anxious that we hear from all of our witnesses and also have time for questions. I’m sure you will get some of your points in when questions are addressed to you.
[Translation]
Souad Elmallem, Chief Executive Officer, 6temik: Mr. Chair, honourable senators, thank you for this valuable opportunity to speak to you about Canada-Africa relations.
I’m Souad Elmallem. I’m the founding president of 6temik, a Canadian company that works on internationalizing manufacturing and service companies by launching them in other countries, particularly in Africa, in three different ways. These ways are competitive manufacturing capacity, optimal capacity to access international markets and flexible satellite teams that provide remote access to teams of high-performing professionals.
These specific skills were acquired through my experience in setting up a Bombardier aerospace plant in Morocco, from the vision to the delivery and final construction. This achievement on African soil earned me a recognition dear to my heart. I was awarded the Wissam of great national merit by the Sovereign of Morocco, King Mohammed VI.
I’m also the president of the Union of Actions for Africa, or UAA, a Canadian organization established by the African diaspora in 2021. Our mission is to unify and structure actions by creating high-impact projects aligned with the United Nations’ 17 sustainable development goals. The founding members of the UAA, most of whom are Canadians of African origin, have 180 years of combined experience. We take concrete, effective and impactful action, as demonstrated by our contribution to Africa’s great green wall project.
One of my other key roles is in governance. I serve as a director of certified companies, sit on a number of major boards of directors and chair some of those boards.
I firmly believe that Canada must embark on a new pragmatic and mutually beneficial approach to business partnerships, built on a win-win foundation. Traditional aid must shift towards strategic investments that serve the long-term interests of Canada and the African countries.
For Africa and Canada to work together successfully, it’s vital to establish a solid partnership focused on economic development and high-impact projects. Sectors that create value and jobs are key to this approach.
I would like to propose the following four main steps to making this vision a reality.
There’s talk of a Canadian council of the African diaspora, inspired by the American model. This council’s mission would involve building a road map for partnerships with each African country, setting the parameters of these partnerships and implementing them faster, while strengthening a solid and legitimate economic diplomacy.
The second step is a project bank. The first phase could involve launching an initiative to identify and develop at least 54 high-impact structuring projects for each African country based on their specific realities. This bank should be fed on an ongoing basis. It should grow in harmony with local results and realities.
A Canada-Africa investment fund, with a clear mission and a bold plan, would serve as a catalyst to set this project bank in motion.
The fourth step would involve establishing training and innovation hubs in order to share the expertise needed to build a skilled workforce and encourage empowerment through local solutions. These hubs would promote education, job training, research and technological development. This would help Canada take a socially responsible approach to accessing Africa’s human resources, without bleeding the continent of its talent.
For this partnership to succeed, it must channel the interests of a number of players, including the Canadian and African governments, the Canadian and African private sectors, the financial institutions and the African diaspora in Canada.
Together, we can truly create a prosperous future for Africa and Canada. Africa could position itself as a market and source for natural and human resources, but above all as a major contributor to global wealth creation.
Thank you for your attention. I look forward to answering your questions.
The Deputy Chair: Thank you, Ms. Elmallem. We’ll now move on to Mr. Fofack.
[English]
Hippolyte Fofack, Parker Fellow, United Nations Sustainable Development Solutions Network, Columbia University, as an individual: Thank you, chair and distinguished senators, for the opportunity to share my perspective on the future engagement between Canada and Africa.
I welcome the emphasis on governance, trade and investment, and peace and security. These themes are interrelated and could be mutually reinforcing in the promotion of development and a stronger partnership between Africa and Canada.
Investments that expand prosperity to bolster the purchasing power of the African household will boost Africa-Canada trade, which remains dismally low — less than 1% of African trade. Hence, in my view, supporting the growth of the African manufacturing industries to expand the opportunity for workers to climb the economic ladder offers the path toward a win-win partnership with Canada on the distant eve of a fresh engagement.
What interventions should we prioritize to achieve that noble objective?
I will focus on four key areas — investment in manufacturing, education and infrastructure, and, I believe, reforming the international financial system.
On the first one, Canada’s foreign direct investment, or FDI, flows to Africa have been very low and skewed toward primary commodities in natural resources. Boosting and shifting its composition is critical, especially in a highly integrated world where the globalization of value chains has strengthened the interconnection between FDI and trade.
It will also guarantee a high return on investment, especially as Canadian companies take advantage of competitiveness and productivity gains associated with the AfCFTA. At the same time, in the world of heightening geopolitical tensions, it will provide a way to reduce our exposure to high concentrations of global supply chains.
For infrastructure development, addressing Africa’s chronic deficit in infrastructure which has become a major constraint to growth is also key. Shortcomings in the power sector alone are estimated to drain between 2% to 4% of African countries’ GDP each year.
One example of a compelling infrastructure project in the power sector — where we believe that Canada has the expertise and experience, and could help Africa a lot — is the grand Inga dam. We think of Hydro-Québec, which, if realized, would be a game changer within the continent in terms of low cost and clean energy in the climate change era. Interestingly, we believe the grand Inga dam would also foster peace and security — dear to this committee — within the region, and, therefore, we see it as not just good economics but also good geopolitics.
In human capital development, education is also an area where we need progress in order to achieve high socio-economic return, but also to create the conditions to make the new partnership between Canada and Africa work the way it is envisaged.
This would imply establishing world-class institutions within the African continent so that they could drive the process of green transitions in economic development in that manufacturing industries and regionals, which would actually rely on greener domestic value chains to connect African industries and Canadian industries.
It is one area where Canada has done a lot in the past. I am the product of a Canadian education; I went to Lycée Polyvalent de Bonabéri in Cameroon. It was the best school in the country at the time.
When I look back on my years, that is the only thing I remember in terms of development. Quite frankly, that could be something that will actually inspire Canada to do even more at the higher education level, where we need the right skills at critical mass.
The next priority area I should mention is reforming the international financial system. It is critical and has become the alpha and omega of constraint to development within the continent.
We think of the default growth-crushing borrowing rate in most African countries. It’s 12% — a double-digit. Now we complain that the use of it has become a problem because the yield on 10 years is 4.5%, but African countries are at 12%.
We have to do this, and Canada can be the champion within the G7 countries in terms of sensitizing them on the need to create a condition for equitable access to fair financing rules.
Canada can also play a key role in ensuring that unused Special Drawing Rights, or SDRs, are reallocated to boost concessional financing toward Africa. Thank you.
The Deputy Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. Fofack. I appreciate you condensing your remarks.
Colleagues, before we get to questions, I would like to reference, for your attention, the piece of advice with respect to earpieces. When you are not using your earpiece, please place it face down on the middle of the round sticker that you see in front of you on the table, where indicated. Please ensure that you are seated in a manner that increases the distance between microphones. Participants must only plug in their earpieces to the microphone console located directly in front of them.
We have about 25 minutes. Rather than the four minutes for each round, I will give three minutes. You won’t like me; I’m going to discipline it.
Senator M. Deacon: Thank you all for being here. We will use the time as best we can, and I appreciate it.
My question to you, Mr. Fofack, concerns the future of international trade in Africa — perhaps a specific perspective.
How do you see this evolving in the coming decade? For instance, at what point, in that time, do you see countries like the Democratic Republic of the Congo, or DRC, exporting raw lithium to produce batteries for export, and what are the impediments to this? How might Canadian development assistance help foster this next step, as one example?
Mr. Fofack: Thank you for the excellent question, senator. I would like to point out that the first part of your question and one of the key issues that we have to quickly set aside is what I call the stickiness of colonial developmental resource extraction. It’s very sticky. We have to consciously take the steps to move away from it.
It’s sticky because of the historical dimensions, but also because of the way the supply chains have been configured. It makes sense, in the climate change era, to do exactly what you’re proposing instead of exporting raw lithium to import electric cars, which is increasing the carbon footprint of the shipping industry. It makes more sense to manufacture this lithium battery at the sources, which is locally.
There is a project now that I can mention as an example whereby the African Export-Import Bank brought together the DRC and Zambia, which are lithium producers. We are establishing a special economic zone at the intersection of those two countries to create the conditions in terms of energy availability, infrastructure and logistics to manufacture those locally.
The international expertise in terms of engineering and green technology could be a major catalyst. If we have Canadian partners that can actually be part of this special economic zone, they could bring the technology and the know-how, and then the link to access on the demand side in Canada could be a major incentive to achieve that.
Senator M. Deacon: Thank you.
I’m looking at how Canada can help the private sector diversify from resource extraction and take advantage of the growing knowledge, but I will put that on hold.
[Translation]
Senator Gerba: I want to welcome our witnesses.
[English]
I have to say that I am very glad to see you here.
[Translation]
I’ll ask my first question. I have questions for all of you, but I won’t have time. I have a quick question for Ms. Elmallem and Mr. Fofack.
Ms. Elmallem, you spoke of 54 high-potential structuring projects. You said that this could happen in 54 countries. However, why have 54 projects in 54 countries, rather than a model built around driving forces to spur growth and development in neighbouring countries? That’s my first question.
Second, try to explain how Canada could help support these structuring projects. We’re legislators. We want to get the message across and make practical and concrete recommendations to the Government of Canada.
Ms. Elmallem: Thank you for your question, senator.
To answer the first question about the 54 projects by 54 countries, image matters. Whenever people talk about Africa, they speak as if it were one country or one unit. Africa is 54 countries with 54 different realities, different complexities, different cultures…. I could go on and on.
There should be an opportunity to create structuring projects in order to establish diplomatic relations with each country. I think that Canada needs to improve its diplomatic relations with each country. One doesn’t preclude the other. The driving force strategy is important. We must continue to use and promote this approach. We need a parallel strategy, where we reach as many countries as possible and create projects that are connected and adapted to the realities of each country. This will help us to improve our relations with African countries, to reach every country and to have a real road map with actual projects based on things that these countries need, but not in an aid format.
As a businesswoman, when I think of Africa, I think of business, not aid. I want a roadmap of projects. I want us to work with Africa. It isn’t just about developing the continent. It’s about prospering together. We need the continent and the continent needs us. We must work on good projects that are “win-win” for Canada and for the African states.
The Deputy Chair: Thank you.
[English]
Senator Coyle: Thank you to all of our wonderful resource people. You are very much on the same page and looking for win-win Canada-Africa — African-driven — solutions, with that focus on the economic, be it trade, investment, fair financing and all of the various things you’re saying.
A couple of you have talked about the green economy, and seeing that as an opportunity for Canada and African partners. I’d like to hear from whoever would like to talk about what those green economy partnerships could look like. Another theme I heard is education and capacity development.
I would like to hear from whoever would like to speak on the green economy partnership potential, as well as what that would take and what that would look like and, on the other hand, education and capacity development.
Mr. Kianza: I can start. Our organization has been around for 24 years. I have seen the number of initiatives that have been taken. We talk about the Africa fund. We talk about FinDev. I was in all those meetings. What companies need is the environment in which they can contact the business.
I think the government can help spearhead the mindset because what is missing right now is enough information. It’s hard to regulate the company. You cannot tell the company to do this and do that. The company knows how they can go with their investment. When it comes to a green energy partnership, the companies first want to know more information from Africa, and that’s what is lacking. By only having 20 embassies and having no resources on the ground, you cannot get that information. So I think that —
Senator Coyle: So Canada on the ground.
Mr. Kianza: Canada on the ground because we need more information.
Mr. Fofack: Thank you, senator, for the questions. I was looking at the data recently, and I saw that on green hydrogen, Africa is actually the largest in the world in terms of capacity. The same holds for wind, solar and even green minerals. I mentioned hydro earlier. Quite frankly, one of the key constraints to that partnership between Africa and Canada will be in the power sector, and to have sufficient power to avoid rotational blackouts and sustain production and productivity growth for Canadian companies and firms moving into the continent.
I am glad, senator, that you put green transitions and education together because we need well-qualified engineers in the power sector and in the chemical engineering field to deliver on that capacity.
Senator Ravalia: Thank you once again to all of you. My question is for Mr. Fofack. What lessons do you feel that Canada can learn from the BRICS countries’ engagement strategies in Africa? How might these insights inform Canada’s own approach to promoting economic growth and stability on the continent?
Mr. Fofack: Thank you, Senator Ravalia. I think it’s very important to really look at what has happened in the world and to bring BRICS into perspective. The fact that the BRICS approach has been very inclusive and not constrained by the stage of development has been critical. We have China and South Africa around the same table. I think of that approach in terms of being very inclusive, and looking at what can be put together to enhance the mutual growth of the group, is one important aspect of it.
I also believe that the BRICS expansions will create the conditions for the world to move toward what we call local currency settlements. That will actually enhance growth prospects as we have more trade between those countries, and that’s something we should be looking forward to in part because that regionalization of reserve currencies will create the conditions for reducing the institutional constraints associated with the limited number of risk-free assets. That is a very important aspect.
In terms of Canadian businesses, one aspect we did not cover — looking forward to the next 10, 15 and 20 years — is we have to bring into the picture the issue of demographics, which will be an important issue in 15 to 20 years from now. It will be the market of the future, where we have fertility rates below the demographic tipping point of 2.1 births per woman. That is another reason why we should put the emphasis on Africa and the Canada-Africa partnership.
Senator Woo: I wonder if Mr. Kianza or Ms. Elmallem can comment on the role of Canadian institutional investors in Africa. I am talking about the pension funds, the asset managers and the big managers of money that are already very international in Asia and Latin America. Is Africa on their radar, and, if not, why?
[Translation]
Ms. Elmallem: Thank you for the question.
[English]
“Why?” is a good question.
[Translation]
As I said earlier, we need to bring governments, institutions and financial institutions together. The task is huge and the challenges are enormous. Above all, the opportunities are tremendous. From this perspective, we must have people around the table to deliver good projects for Canada and Africa.
Right now, we need a change in position. We’re in a position to help, but not as equals. Africa and Africans need us to stand on an equal footing, because some really wonderful things are happening in Africa. As Canadians, we want to accelerate the great things happening in Africa and optimize our presence there. We can’t afford to miss the boat. Some of them are doing better than us today.
There currently aren’t enough of these funds, because they need incentives. As Mr. Kianza said earlier, people don’t know much about the situation in Africa. If people knew more, they would probably show more interest. The Canadian government must ensure better access to information and to the right partners in particular. It must work on real projects that make sense for Canada and for Africa.
[English]
Senator Woo: Do you know if the Canada Pension Plan Investment Board, or the Caisse de dépôt et placement du Québec, or teachers, or the British Columbia Council for International Cooperation, or any of the big funds, Brookfield —
Ms. Elmallem: If they do something, they do it by accident, and I’m talking about by design.
Mr. Fofack: The short and clear answer to your question, Senator Woo, is that they are not present in Africa. One reason being that, for these pension funds and for investors, they deal only with AAA and investment grade institutions. And this question goes back to the reform of financial architecture, which credit rating agencies put most African entities at sub-investment grade — maybe even as junk. So unless we reform that, the incentive to bring those investors will be very difficult.
Senator Richards: Thank you for being here. I hope all of this will work out.
I have a question about the impact of the lack of security on foreign investments. On average, there are 463 murders a week in South Africa alone.
From Nigeria to Cameroon, Ethiopia and many other places, there is a crisis of political and religious dimensions.
How can we help mitigate this so that we can have a mutual respect and benefit for all of us?
Ms. Elmallem: I would say there are problems everywhere in the world.
Senator Richards: I am aware of that. I am talking about Africa now.
Ms. Elmallem: Yes, but the problem is this: Can we focus on what is going well and work with it and mitigate the risks? We can mitigate the risks; I agree with you. There is a way. There is effort.
We have to put the energy to make it happen. It won’t happen without putting that as a priority big time. We have to make sure we have all the effort and the needs that are needed to make something happen. The government has to do it. That is the only way to do things differently.
[Translation]
Before that, things were done in a certain way.
[English]
Same recipe, so it will be the same result.
[Translation]
We must change our approach. If we create a framework for our work, we can develop real initiatives. We simply need to work with everyone around us, despite all the risks in a given region, project or country. I firmly believe that if we want to…. It won’t be easy, but it can be done. It’s a matter of effort.
[English]
Mr. Fofack: Thank you, senator, for that question.
In fact, this committee has done a fantastic job elevating peace and security as one of its key items. Catalyzing the FDI flows within the continent has been an issue.
One reason why we have to address it, and have both the short-term and long-term perspectives, is this: The long-term perspective in investment in the short term will create the conditions to reduce the security risks, where people have to choose between risking their lives crossing the Mediterranean and engaging on what can be risky.
The long-term perspective would be education. Investing in education will create a condition for greater opportunities.
The fact that we have the AfCFTA in place is a positive step that will make things better. To reassure you, senator, I would like to quote the Financial Times: “Perceptions of Africa lag behind the brightening reality.” Notwithstanding those issues, the prospects are significant.
Senator Richards: I am asking this question for the benefit of Africa, not for the benefit of Canada. I want to make that clear.
Senator Boniface: Thank you to the witnesses for being here.
Mr. Fofack, you mentioned governance in your comments — if I am wrong, please say so.
Can you tell me more about what Canada can do in terms of assistance around governance?
Mr. Fofack: Governance has been an issue. It is becoming a major issue and a global challenge.
On governance, in the short term, there’s the issue of fiscality and tax evasion and avoidance, and we have not been able to converge on global taxations, to hold multinationals more accountable and to expand on the fiscal space. That is something that Canada can lead within the G7, and where Africa has been an orphan for a long time. That is one aspect of it.
The other aspect is that during my time at the World Bank, I led a project on illicit financial flows from the continent, and I was stunned to see that the estimates were almost US$2 trillion out of the continent, and, of course, illicit outflows leave the continent undermining investment. I think that Canada could also help on that, especially holding the Swiss banks more accountable, and to make sure we have those resources remaining within the continent.
Of course, then we have the political governance. To make sure we have the right elites in those countries is more complicated, but it is something we should be thinking about. In the long term, the ratification will ensure that we have accountable leaders.
Senator Boniface: You mentioned the World Bank. According to one of their reports, the African Continental Free Trade Area is expected to boost the African economy by $450 billion by 2035, and that could potentially lift 30 million people out of extreme poverty. Could you give me a sense of your thoughts on those estimates?
Mr. Fofack: Thank you, senator. I fully concur with those estimates. There is a big “if.” As a matter of fact, there are two big “ifs.” I think the first “if” is if we are able — in addition to lifting the tariff — to make sure that we have non-tariff barriers that are also addressed, which involve infrastructure.
There is no need — and this is the second “if” — to impose the rules of origin if we do not have enough power to manufacture the goods we need. Those numbers are correct under those two conditions: addressing the non-tariff barriers related to infrastructure, but also the rules of origin that work.
Senator Gerba: My question is for Mr. Fofack, but you can all answer it.
[Translation]
You rightly said that the flow of foreign direct investment, or FDI, into Africa from Canada is quite low, and heavily focused on raw materials. For a long time, we’ve seen that Canadian companies aren’t focusing enough on the African continent, despite the tremendous opportunities that you all referred to. How could Canada better support these companies on the African continent? Do you have any recommendations for Export Development Canada, or EDC, another tool for supporting companies? Also, how are the other countries that support their companies on the continent helping these companies to succeed in Africa?
[English]
Mr. Fofack: Thank you very much, Senator Gerba, for that important question.
It is, indeed, critical. If you look at my experience as the chief economist at the African Export-Import Bank, we had a close working relationship with India Exim Bank, KfW and AFD, which enabled us to help Indian and German companies export to the African continent with trade in goods and services, but also sustain the flow of investment. Creating the conditions for Export Development Canada to work with regional banks would be a very good starting point.
The issue of providing guarantees and insurance as a first step out of the door for Canadian corporations to take that first risk, whether it is a market risk or a political risk — you name it — would be another important incentive. However, they will eventually realize that, in fact, you will never cash that guarantee because that perception premium is actually much higher than the risk on the ground. Those are a few options that could be considered. Thank you.
The Deputy Chair: Colleagues, I wish to thank our witnesses on your behalf. Again, I apologize for the condensed nature of this conversation.
You have given us a lot of material for further consideration.
If there are elements that you were not able to express to us directly, please provide us with additional information or references through the clerk, and, senators, we will reconvene tomorrow in our regular time slot.
We have an excellent panel on that occasion as well. Since it is before the Senate convenes, it will be more predictable.
(The committee adjourned.)