THE STANDING COMMITTEE ON INTERNAL ECONOMY, BUDGETS AND ADMINISTRATION
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS
OTTAWA, Thursday, October 10, 2024
(39)
[English]
The Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration met this day at 9:00 a.m., in room C128, Senate of Canada Building, the chair, the Honourable Lucie Moncion, presiding.
Members of the committee present: The Honourable Senators Audette, Boehm, Boyer, Carignan, P.C., Dalphond, Forest, LaBoucane-Benson, Loffreda, MacAdam, MacDonald, Moncion, Moodie, Plett, Quinn, Saint-Germain, Seidman, and Smith (17).
Participating in the meeting: Shaila Anwar, Clerk of the Senate and Clerk of the Parliaments; Pascale Legault, Chief Corporate Services Officer and Clerk of the Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration; senior Senate officials and other support staff.
WITNESSES:
The Honourable Senator Éric Forest, Chair, Subcommittee on Senate Estimates and Committee Budgets;
The Honourable Senator Donald Neil Plett, Member, Subcommittee on Long Term Vision and Plan;
Nathalie Charpentier, Comptroller and Deputy Chief Financial Officer, Finance and Procurement Directorate;
Louise Cowley, Director, LTVP & Accommodation, Property and Services Directorate;
Josée Labelle, Director General, Property and Services Directorate;
Pierre Lanctôt, Chief Financial Officer, Finance and Procurement Directorate;
Jasen Webster, Deputy Director, LTVP, Security Project Planning and Delivery.
Ernst & Young LLP:
Suzie Gignac, Partner, Assurance;
Sonia Leblanc Partner, Assurance.
Pursuant to rule 12-7(1) of the Rules of the Senate, the committee continued its consideration of financial and administrative matters concerning the Senate’s internal administration.
The senators introduced themselves.
It was agreed that item 4 on the agenda be postponed to a future meeting of the committee.
CIBA/2024-10-10/415(P) — Consent Agenda
The chair made a statement regarding the consent agenda.
After debate, the Honourable Senator Loffreda moved that the consent agenda, which is comprised of the following items, be adopted:
- Minutes of Proceedings from September 26, 2024 (In Public and In Camera)
- Annual Report from the Joint Interparliamentary Council (JIC)
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
CIBA/2024-10-10/416(P) — Report from the Subcommittee on Senate Estimates and Committee Budgets — Audited Financial Statements
The Chair of the Subcommittee on Senate Estimates and Committee Budgets, the Honourable Senator Forest, presented the Thirty-Third Report of the subcommittee as follows:
Thursday, October 10, 2024
The Subcommittee on Senate Estimates and Committee Budgets of the Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration has the honour to present its
THIRTY-THIRD REPORT
Your subcommittee has reviewed the Financial Statements of the Senate of Canada for the year ended March 31, 2024 as well as the audit results report. The audit was conducted in accordance with generally accepted Canadian auditing standards by the professional services firm of Ernst & Young, LLP.
The audit resulted in an unqualified auditor’s report indicating that the financial statements present fairly, in all material respects, the financial position of the Senate of Canada as of March 31, 2024 and the results of its operations and cash flows in accordance with Canadian public sector accounting standards.
Your subcommittee recommends that these audited financial statements be approved and tabled in the Senate.
Respectfully submitted,
ÉRIC FOREST
Chair
The Honourable Senator Forest made a statement.
Pierre Lanctôt answered questions.
Suzie Gignac made a statement and, together with Pierre Lanctôt, answered questions.
At 9:23 a.m., the committee suspended.
At 9:24 a.m., the committee resumed in camera, pursuant to rule 12-16(1).
At 9:30 a.m., the committee suspended.
At 9:33 a.m., the committee resumed in public.
After debate, the Honourable Senator Forest moved that the subcommittee’s Thirty-Third Report be adopted, that the financial statements be tabled in the Senate, and that, as per the division of responsibilities between CIBA and the Standing Committee on Audit and Oversight (AOVS), the internal Financial Highlights Report of the Senate of Canada’s Audited Financial Statements for the Year Ended March 31, 2024, and the Financial Statements for the year ended March 31, 2024, as well as the Audit Results for the year ended March 31, 2024, be shared with the members of the AOVS Committee.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
CIBA/2024-10-10/417(P) — Report from the Subcommittee on Senate Estimates and Committee Budgets — Survey Results for the East Block Cafeteria
The Chair of the Subcommittee on Senate Estimates and Committee Budgets, the Honourable Senator Forest, presented the Thirty-Fifth Report of the subcommittee as follows:
Thursday, October 10, 2024
The Subcommittee on Senate Estimates and Committee Budgets (SEBS) of the Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration (CIBA) has the honour to present its
THIRTY-FIFTH REPORT
At the request of CIBA on April 11, 2024, the Property and Services Directorate (PSD) launched a survey with the support of the Communications Directorate to gather feedback from senators, Senate staff, and parliamentary partners located in the East Block and the Senate of Canada Building regarding the food services offered at the Senate cafeterias.
The request from CIBA came in response to an efficiency measure proposed by SEBS as part of its ongoing efficiency review, in recognition of the economic climate and aiming to limit budget growth and reduce ongoing expenditures. This efficiency measure involved temporarily closing the East Block cafeteria as part of a pilot project and replace it with an intelligent vending machine offering similar menus prepared by the House of Commons. This proposal had been prepared based on past usage statistics and a thorough cost analysis.
The House of Commons operates the East Block and Senate of Canada Building cafeterias on behalf of the Senate. The Senate pays the House of Commons an annual subsidy for the cafeterias to cover the deficit they incur, comprised of salaries and costs of goods sold being higher than its revenue. Unlike third-party food service providers, the mandate of the House of Commons is not to make a profit. Final costs (net of revenue) for 2023-24 totaled $348,000.
During discussions at CIBA, senators expressed concerns about the possibility of closing the East Block cafeteria without prior consultation with the senators and staff who use it, emphasizing that any assessment of its future should take into account customer habits and preferences in addition to a financial analysis.
ANALYSIS
The survey concluded on July 19, 2024, and was completed by 369 participants, including 32 responses from senators and 260 from senators’ staff and the Administration. This participation rate is high compared to other Senate surveys and, given the high number of respondents from the East Block in particular, the survey provided sufficient data to inform decisions about food services at the Senate. Full results are available in the appendix to this report.
The survey questions were designed to solicit participants' feedback on the food services offered at the cafeterias located on Senate premises, enabling both qualitative and quantitative analysis of customer experiences.
Following analysis of these responses, your subcommittee notes that the quantitative results are just as convincing as the qualitative ones. Senators, Senate staff and employees of the parliamentary partners express their desire to maintain the services offered by the two Senate cafeterias. The comments gathered show that respondents value and rely on these services. Many participants stressed that access to cafeterias in their workplaces is essential given the demands of their jobs.
Based on the results of this survey, and in order to balance services for senators and employees while keeping the budget increase under control, your subcommittee recommends maintaining the status quo regarding food services currently on offer in Senate-occupied buildings.
PSD has an approved budget of $310,000 to operate the Senate of Canada Building cafeteria ($190,000) and the East Block cafeteria ($120,000). To account for the 14.8% increase in salary costs for 2024-25 negotiated by the House of Commons, subsequent salary increases projected at 2% per year, and rising operating costs projected at 4% per year, it is estimated that an additional $95,000 (an increase of 15% from 2023-24) will be required to maintain current service levels, increasing by an additional $10,000 per year.
RECOMMENDATIONS
Accordingly, your subcommittee recommends:
- That the Property and Services Directorate budget be increased permanently by an amount of $95,000, and by an additional $10,000 each following fiscal year until 2028-29, and that the funding requirements be reassessed thereafter and as required;
- That the Memorandum of Understanding between the House of Commons and the Senate for provision of cafeteria and catering food services be extended for one (1) year plus three (3) option years until March 31, 2029, for an estimated total of $1,675,000 over four years. This represents $710,000 for the East Block cafeteria and $965,000 for the Senate of Canada building cafeteria; and
- That the Senate Administration communicate relevant survey results to the House of Commons for their action and consideration, such comments on food quality and extended options for various dietary requirements, within the scope of the current food services MOU.
Respectfully submitted,
ÉRIC FOREST
Chair
The Honourable Senator Forest made a statement and, together with Josée Labelle, answered questions.
After debate, the Honourable Senator Forest moved that the subcommittee’s Thirty-Fifth Report be adopted.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
CIBA/2024-10-10/418(P) — Report from the Subcommittee on Senate Estimates and Committee Budgets — Living Expenses Budget Adjustment for Senate House Officers
The Chair of the Subcommittee on Senate Estimates and Committee Budgets, the Honourable Senator Forest, presented the Thirty-Sixth Report of the subcommittee as follows:
Thursday, October 10, 2024
The Subcommittee on Senate Estimates and Committee Budgets (SEBS) of the Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration (CIBA) has the honour to present its
THIRTY-SIXTH REPORT
On October 3, 2024, your subcommittee reviewed the budget for senators' living expenses in the Parliamentary District (PD) for senators serving as House Officers. This review was prompted by comments from senators performing such duties expressing the fact that the current allowance is insufficient to cover the expenses incurred by their additional duties.
ANALYSIS
After debate, it was proposed that an additional annual allowance of $5,000 be made available to senators in the role of House Officer to cover additional living expenses (accommodation and per diems) when staying in the PD. This allowance will be intended to cover living expenses incurred in the PD for days that fall outside the regular sitting calendar.
Senators in the role of House Officer will automatically receive the additional $5,000 allowance at the beginning of the fiscal year, or on a pro rata basis at any time during the year in which they take office.
As per the Senators’ Office Management Policy, House Officer is defined as: the Speaker, the Speaker pro tempore, the Leader of the Government or Government Representative in the Senate, the Leader of the Opposition, the leader or facilitator of a recognized party or recognized parliamentary group, and their respective deputy leaders and whips.
Your subcommittee reiterates that living expenses incurred while in transit to the PD and for stays in the PD on a weekend that falls between two sitting weeks are charged to the Travel Points System and not to the Living Expenses Budget.
This request requires no additional funding. Based on an analysis of projected expenditures, it was determined that the existing overall funding for 2024-25 and subsequent fiscal years would be sufficient since most senators do not spend their entire budget. This assessment also includes consideration for inflation.
RECOMMENDATION
Accordingly, your subcommittee recommends:
- That senators who perform the role of House Officer as per the Senators' Office Management Policy automatically receive an additional allowance of $5,000 at the beginning of the fiscal year or on a pro rata basis at any time during the year as a result of the date of assuming office, effective with the adoption of this report.
Respectfully submitted,
ÉRIC FOREST
Chair
The Honourable Senator Forest made a statement and, together with the Honourable Senator Moncion, answered questions.
After debate, the Honourable Senator Forest moved that the subcommittee’s Thirty-Sixth Report be adopted.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
CIBA/2024-10-10/419(P) — Report from the Subcommittee on the Long Term Vision and Plan
The Honourable Senator Plett, member of the Subcommittee on Senate Long Term Vision and Plan, presented the Eleventh Report of the subcommittee as follows:
Thursday, October 10, 2024
The Subcommittee on Long Term Vision and Plan of the Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration has the honour to present its
ELEVENTH REPORT
Your subcommittee, which has been authorized by the Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration (CIBA) to study and report on the work program for the Long-Term Vision and Plan for the parliamentary precinct, now presents its eleventh report with the following recommendation:
Decant of Confederation Building and Impacts on the Senate’s Long-Term Accommodation Plan
In March 2022, the Senate was asked to amend its long-term accommodation plan to advance the relocation of senators' parliamentary office units (POUs) from the Victoria Building, to allow some MPs to use it as interim space due to the rapidly deteriorating condition of the Confederation Building and its 162 MP POUs. Your subcommittee was told at that time, that the Confederation Building would require a 2-phase rehabilitation and decant. CIBA agreed to this request, which modified the long-term accommodation plan for senator POUs in the end-state. This decision was communicated to the Minister of Public Services and Procurement Canada in March 2022. In June 2022, CIBA confirmed the East Tower of Block 2 (Senate Office Complex, or SOC), as one of three permanent Senate buildings in end-state, with 54 senator POUs scheduled for occupancy in the SOC around 2032. This decision was communicated to the Minister of Public Services and Procurement Canada in June 2022.
Then, in early May 2024, at a meeting of the House of Commons´ Board of Internal Economy, MPs expressed a strong preference that their move out of the Confederation Building be made in one phase, rather than two phases. At a meeting in May 2024, your subcommittee was informed that one of the proposals suggested by officials from Public Services and Procurement Canada (PSPC) was for the House to use the whole of Block 2, combining the 94 MP POUs in the West Tower, with all of the 54 POUs in the SOC, to be used as an interim space for MPs instead.
However, the SOC represents a key development for the Senate, linked to the East Block Rehabilitation Project, and its occupancy corresponds with the timing for the relocation of 46 senator POUs from the East Block. The SOC is intended to contain the majority of senator POUs in all three senator-occupied buildings in the end-state (54 POUs), along with 3 Senate committee rooms, and is being designed to have a dedicated and secure Senate business entrance. This new proposal by PSPC to use the SOC as an interim location for MP offices would delay the installation of senators' offices in the SOC by around 7 years, according to PSPC estimates.
Your subcommittee received an update from the Senate Administration on September 18, 2024, on the status of this new proposal, along with alternate options for consideration that could accommodate the House of Commons’ request. We remain deeply concerned about the impact this new proposal by the House could have on the Senate’s long term accommodations. Your subcommittee notes that the Senate has already confirmed with PSPC that senators would occupy three buildings in the end-state: the Centre Block (with 22 senator POUs), the East Block (with 42 senator POUs) and the SOC (with 54 senator POUs) for a total of 118 senator POUs on Parliament Hill. Your subcommittee is of the opinion that the Senate’s permanent end-state buildings should not be used as interim spaces for MP offices.
Your subcommittee asked the Senate Administration to conduct a high-level analysis of this latest proposal, along with the viability of other alternate locations suggested by PSPC to accommodate the House of Commons’ request. Based the Senate Administration’s a high-level analysis of the House of Commons’ current accommodation strategy, it is believed they will have a deficit of 33-34 POUs, from the total of 160 MP POUs that will eventually be decanted from the Confederation Building. At this time and based on known variables, your subcommittee believes that this deficit could be addressed by using some interim Senate POUs as they become available (ie using POUs in the Senate of Canada Building or 40 Elgin, for example) and shared with the House of Commons, after senators move into one of the Senate’s end-state locations. This would help the House of Commons with their estimated shortfall of 34 POUs once the Confederation Building is emptied, without requiring the full occupancy of the SOC to accommodate MP POUs.
The Administration also advised the subcommittee that key details from PSPC on exact occupancy dates for Block 2, the duration of the Confederation Building Rehabilitation Project and greater details about the plans for its decant are still unknown. Until further information is provided by PSPC, your subcommittee believes that the Senate Office Complex design plan should continue as is, according to the Senate’s existing end-state requirements.
Therefore, your subcommittee is of the opinion that it is premature to discuss changes to the Senate’s long term accommodation strategy.
Recommendations:
Accordingly, your subcommittee recommends that until PSPC is able to provide confirmation of exact dates for decanting, construction and occupancy of the Confederation Building, the Senate retain its current approved accommodation strategy, which establishes that all 118 senator POUs will be located in Centre Block, East Block and the Senate Office Complex in the end-state; and that the Senate commits to collaborating with the House of Commons and PSPC, at the appropriate time, to provide an additional 34 POUs to the House of Commons to use as swing spaces for MPs as POUs become available when senators move out of 40 Elgin and the Senate of Canada Building.
Your subcommittee recommends that it be authorized to communicate this recommendation to Public Services and Procurement Canada, on behalf of CIBA.
Respectfully submitted,
SCOTT TANNAS
Chair of the Subcommittee
The Honourable Senator Plett made a statement.
After debate, the Honourable Senator Plett moved that the subcommittee’s Eleventh Report be adopted and that the Chair of the Subcommittee be authorized to communicate this decision to Public Services and Procurement Canada, on behalf of CIBA.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
CIBA/2024-10-10/420(P) — For Information Items sent via Email
The chair made a statement regarding items sent via email to members for information purposes.
At 10:02 a.m., the committee suspended.
At 10:04 a.m., pursuant to 12-16(1), the committee proceeded in camera.
At 10:41 a.m., the committee adjourned to the call of the chair.
ATTEST:
Pascale Legault
Chief Corporate Services Officer and Clerk of the Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration
Keli Hogan
Recording Secretary