THE STANDING SENATE COMMITTEE ON FISHERIES AND OCEANS
EVIDENCE
OTTAWA, Tuesday, November 29, 2022
The Standing Senate Committee on Fisheries and Oceans met with videoconference this day at 6:43 p.m. [ET] to examine and report on Canada’s seal populations and their effect on Canada’s fisheries.
Senator Fabian Manning (Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Chair: My name is Fabian Manning. I am a senator from Newfoundland and Labrador, and I have the pleasure to be chair of this committee.
Today, we are conducting a meeting of the Standing Senate Committee on Fisheries and Oceans. Should any technical challenges arise, particularly in relation to interpretation, please signal this to the chair or the clerk, and we will work to resolve the issue. I would like to take a few moments and ask senators who have joined us here so far this evening to introduce themselves.
Senator Ravalia: I am Mohamed Ravalia. I represent the province of Newfoundland and Labrador. I would like to welcome you both. Thank you for being here.
Senator Cordy: Thank you both for being here for this evening hearing. I’m Jane Cordy, a senator from Nova Scotia.
Senator Busson: I will echo that welcome. I’m a senator from British Columbia. My name is Bev Busson.
The Chair: Thank you, senators. We may have additional senators join us afterwards.
Before asking and answering any questions, I would like to ask members in the room to please refrain from leaning in too close to the microphones or to remove your earpiece when doing so. This will avoid any sound feedback that could negatively impact the staff in our room.
On October 4, 2022, the Standing Senate Committee on Fisheries and Oceans was authorized to examine and report on Canada’s seal populations and their effect on Canada’s fisheries.
Today, under this mandate, the committee will be hearing from the following representatives from the Department of Fisheries and Oceans: Todd Williams, Acting Director General, Fisheries and Resource Management, Fisheries and Harbor Management Sector; and Ken Smedbol, Acting Senior Director, Science, Maritimes Region.
We’re hoping — we’re having some technical difficulties now — to have research scientist Dr. Nell den Heyer join us. Our technical people are working on that at the present time.
On behalf of the members of our committee, I want to thank you for joining us here today. I understand that Mr. Williams has some opening remarks.
We are joined by Senator McPhedran. Thank you, senator.
Mr. Williams, you have the floor.
Todd Williams, Acting Director General, Fisheries and Resource Management, Fisheries and Harbor Management Sector, Department of Fisheries and Oceans: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I am Acting Director General of Fisheries and Resource Management at DFO. I’m joined today by Dr. Cornelia den Heyer, Marine Mammal Research Scientist, Maritimes Region; and Ken Smedbol, Senior Director of Science, Maritimes Region.
[Translation]
Fisheries and Oceans Canada manages fisheries with the goal of keeping stocks healthy, protecting biodiversity, and ensuring our fisheries remain productive. The minister is committed to supporting sustainable and prosperous fisheries through the use of science and evidence-based decision-making.
[English]
The government is committed to a sustainable, humane and well-regulated hunt. The harvest of seals supports Canada’s Indigenous, rural and coastal communities as it is an important economic and cultural activity in Atlantic Canada, Quebec and the Arctic. The seal harvest provides important seasonal labour in a number of Canada’s remote coastal and northern communities.
[Translation]
The department manages the seal harvest using the same approach as all other commercially managed fisheries, working to ensure seal populations remain above a precautionary population level to ensure sustainability. Management decisions are based upon the best available information.
[English]
The department is very aware of the concerns from commercial fish harvesters regarding the impact of seals on fish stocks. However, the management of seals in Atlantic Canada is not intended to be used as a tool to reduce seal populations. The lack of market opportunities for seal products and reduced participation in the harvest, however, does mean removals remain well below exploitable levels.
For example, between 2018 and 2022, yearly harp seal landings have averaged only 7% of the latest science advice of 425,000 seals which could be taken each year. Only a total of 149,000 harp seals have been harvested in Atlantic Canada and Quebec over that five-year span. Grey seal harvests are even lower, with an average landing of 1% of the latest science advice.
[Translation]
On November 8 and 9 in St. John’s, Newfoundland and Labrador, the minister brought together indigenous partners, the commercial fishing industry, provincial and territorial representatives, and other stakeholders and experts. Her purpose in doing so was to explore new opportunities to expand Canadian seal products into export markets, to highlight the importance of the seal harvest to indigenous communities, and to help address gaps in data regarding seal populations.
[English]
Immediately prior to the Seal Summit, I chaired a meeting of the Atlantic Seal Advisory Committee. The committee is the primary consultative body for the management and development of the Atlantic seal harvest and is composed of representatives from industry, Indigenous groups, NGOs and government agencies.
As an outcome of this discussion, a working group was established to review the policies and regulations that govern licensing aspects regarding the seal harvest. The review will determine what changes could be made to increase participation in, and reduce barriers to, the harvest.
[Translation]
Fisheries and Oceans Canada has a robust science program, and we are continuously improving our understanding of Atlantic seal populations and potential impacts on fish stocks. At the meeting, department scientists informed the committee members of the possibilities to simplify sample collection by harvesters to facilitate continued research into seal predation.
[English]
To advance collaboration between industry and Department of Fisheries and Oceans science activities as per the task team recommendations, which were recently announced earlier this year, the minister announced an open call for project proposals to increase our understanding of the role of seals in the ecosystem. She did so at the conclusion of the recent Seal Summit.
Thank you for your work on this issue and your time here today. We now welcome your questions.
The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Williams.
We have made connection with Dr. den Heyer. Welcome. Everything seems to be falling into place.
We’ll go to Senator Busson, deputy chair of our committee, for our first questions.
Senator Busson: Although you didn’t touch on it specifically, I’m curious about the effect of climate change on seal populations in Canada. There is no doubt that climate change has had an influence on the seal populations across the country and created a variety of difficulties for research, conservation and the ability to gauge the effect of the predation of seals on fish stocks. In your opinion, has climate change had an effect that might be considered different on the West Coast than on the East Coast in terms of the environment, impact and population of Pacific and Atlantic seals?
Ken Smedbol, Acting Senior Director, Science, Maritimes Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans: Thank you for the question. Perhaps I can start, and then I’ll pass it on to my colleague Dr. den Heyer, who leads our seal research team in the Maritime region.
Certainly, the question of climate change and the dynamics of marine populations is an area of active research. I’m not aware of any active research that indicates differences within or among pinniped populations on each coast according to climate change, but I will defer to my colleague Dr. den Heyer.
Nell (Cornelia) den Heyer, Research Scientist, Population Ecology Division, Science, Maritimes Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans: I would just like to start by recognizing that I’m joining you from the traditional territory of the Mi’kma’ki people, and I’m now going to thank you for inviting me to the meeting and try to answer that question.
There would be differences in the response of seal populations on the West Coast and the East Coast in response to climate change. We are expecting all of our pinniped populations to have to respond to changes in prey and predators that are happening because of climate change. Specifically on the East Coast, we do have changes in ice conditions. I can speak most knowledgeably about the grey seal population because that is primarily what I end up working on — although I do have colleagues that could speak to other ice-dependent species.
Grey seals are not ice dependent, but they can breed on ice, and they have been breeding on ice in the Gulf of St. Lawrence for some time. In recent years, the ice has declined in the Gulf of St. Lawrence. During that period of time of decline, there has been instability in the ice that has affected grey seal pup survival. In our assessment models, we have accounted for some of the changes in pup survival that come from instability in the ice. Now that there is less ice in the gulf, the grey seal population in the gulf is breeding on islands, so we’re seeing a shift in the distribution of the grey seal breeding, and we are no longer having to account for poor ice conditions in terms of survival for grey seals in the assessment.
Senator Busson: If I could, I have a bit of a follow up, given the question. Interestingly enough, you mention that there was a shift in the breeding habits. We hear from other experts that there has been a shift in the predation habits of seals, given the ecosystems changes. Am I right in assuming that rather than affecting the population itself, the adaptability of the seals brings us to not necessarily conclude but suspect that it’s more a change of habits than it is a change of population or a reduction in the population per se?
Ms. den Heyer: I want to thank you for that question.
Grey seals in particular have increased, and we expect to see changes in the distribution of their foraging efforts because they have increased. Also, we will see changes as they respond to changes in their prey. Grey seals are generalist predators. There are a lot of details to think about when you try to estimate what the diet of grey seals are, but we can expect it to change in response to distributions and abundances of prey as well as the grey seals themselves.
Senator Ravalia: I had the opportunity, with the chair, to be at the Seal Summit. It certainly was very informative. I live in a community that has historically been very dependent on the seal fishery. I’m from Twillingate on the northeast coast of Newfoundland and have had an opportunity to dialogue with many of my friends and colleagues who are involved in the industry.
The information that I garner in conversations with experienced fisher people is quite different than what we hear from the science. I’m just kind of curious. How can you as scientists and researchers better involve fish and seal harvesters in some of the seal science projects that are going on? Is there much collaboration? In general conversation, it appears that you’re perhaps a little polarized. I was wondering if you could comment on that for me, please.
Mr. Smedbol: Thank you for the question.
In my substantive position, I am responsible for a division of research scientists and biologists who work on research monitoring assessment of commercial species and pinnipeds in the Maritime region. I’m aware of seal issues in other regions, but I’m not familiar with the direct one-to-one relationships between researchers within, say, Newfoundland and Labrador and sealers. However, I can speak more generally to the types of collaborations to which you refer.
There are ongoing collaborations in the collection of biological information from pinnipeds, mainly through harvest. Particularly in the Newfoundland and Labrador region, a lot of the stomach and tissue samples that are received by the department do come from harvesters. That work, of course, tends to be concentrated on the inshore because that’s where they operate. We do note that a decline — as mentioned by my colleague — in the number of seals that have been harvested does result in a reduction of the number of samples that we would receive, since that was the major source of our sampling.
We are always interested in speaking on behalf of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans Science Sector. We are always interested in collaborating and having discussions with harvesters or interested stakeholder groups that would like to participate in science. We have a broad suite of collaborations for a broad suite of species, both harvested and species at risk. We are certainly open to those discussions. I can’t speak to the current state of the relationship. I’m unaware of that.
Perhaps I’ll turn again to Dr. den Heyer, because she does have some collaborations of her own. She may be able to speak to this. Nell, do you have anything to add?
Ms. den Heyer: From the Maritime region, we don’t have a lot of collaborations with an industry group because we don’t have as many active industry harvesters. However, Dr. Smedbol was correct in reporting that for grey seal assessments, we get information from samples that are collected by harvesters for reproductive rates in the Gulf of St. Lawrence. I understand that there is a more active program for harp seal data collection for reproductive rates and other data from samplings that are completed by harvesters.
Senator Ravalia: Just to change gears somewhat, at the conclusion of the summit, Minister Murray launched an open call for project proposals to increase our understanding of ocean and freshwater environments and the role of seals in the ecosystem. There was also a lot of talk about the potential economic benefits if there was a way to ensure that this vast protein mass that sits off our shores could in some way find its way to parts of the world where food insecurity has become such a huge issue. Has there been any kind of discussion about that between DFO, the division of fisheries and perhaps Global Affairs as to perhaps how we could utilize the resource that’s not currently being caught even by our own fisher people for the benefit of nations that would significantly benefit from seal products, particularly the protein component?
Mr. Williams: It’s a very good question. Thank you for that. It has been something which has been discussed previously.
For that question, I think my colleagues within the strategic policy sector of Fisheries and Oceans might be best placed. They have those relationships with Global Affairs Canada and also focus on trade and market access more broadly. From a fisheries management perspective, my focus is somewhat narrower. Once it’s landed, then it becomes another issue, and of course, the science, with a similar focus as well.
Senator Cordy: When you’re doing scientific research — and we’re looking at the effect of seals on the fishery — do you just look at the seal population? Is that the focus of your study, or do you look at seals and the effect of a growing seal population? Ms. den Heyer, you spoke about the grey seal population increasing, so would you look at the effect of the increasing grey seal population creating possibly a decrease in the amount of fish? Are you more specific, or do you cross over?
Mr. Smedbol: Thank you for the question. I’ll start and provide a science management overview of that. Certainly, Nell is involved with a couple of projects that relate directly to your question, and I’ll pass it on to her.
The short answer is we do both, but not necessarily by the same groups within a region because it requires a suite of expertise. Dr. Den Heyer’s unit is mainly responsible for our research and monitoring work on seals within the maritime region, and I’ll use the maritime region as an example because that’s the area in which I have the most knowledge.
We also have a number of other research and monitoring units that focus on the individual species of fish, particularly if they’re harvested. There’s individual research and monitoring on status trends and habitat and the effects of stuff on those particular populations.
Then there’s the second component of the work that you asked about, and that is when you put those two together, when you try to determine if there are measurable effects on prey species within the same area or the same zone. Within DFO science, we tend to focus on commercial species in that question, so I think you may be aware of an example in the southern Gulf of St. Lawrence where it has been demonstrated that grey seal predation on cod is preventing recovery within that area.
The short answer to your question is that this is an area of active research. We do both, and we bring in experts in each of those areas together to work on that.
Perhaps now I’ll turn to Dr. den Heyer, because she’s involved in some of this work.
Ms. den Heyer: Thank you for that.
I think that is the overview of the process. We have an active research program where we try to provide the information that is needed to understand the role of seals in the ecosystem. In particular, when you’re talking about a question of impact on specific species, we’ll want to know questions about how many seals there are, what they’re eating, how much they eat and where they’re eating.
We have active research in many of those areas, and that information then feeds into, in the most recent cases, single stock assessments. The information would be used by individual stock assessments, either as qualitative information or in a quantitative manner, to estimate the mortality of particular stocks as a result of seal predation.
Ken was correct in identifying the southern Gulf of St. Lawrence as one of the areas where a number of these quantitative assessments have been completed.
Senator Cordy: You spoke about the cod fishery, and I think people of my generation can remember John Crosbie in Newfoundland standing up and saying they didn’t take the darn fish from the water or something like that, and credit to him for going to a fishing community to tell the people, for sure, because it would have been easier to go to the downtown of a city just to say that.
The idea was that you would cut back on the cod fishery and the fishery would come back. The evidence that we’ve heard from witnesses is that the cod fishery has not recovered. We’ve also heard from fishers that the increased seal population is at least partially to blame for that. Are you finding a correlation in the studies that you’re doing, or have you looked at that correlation?
Mr. Smedbol: Thank you for the question. I can provide a broad overview of that. In Maritimes Region, we’re not specifically involved in individual studies within Newfoundland and Labrador or within the gulf, but I can speak a little more broadly to that.
First, to your point around the recovery of cod, there’s no evidence of recovery of collapsed cod populations in any of our populations, except for northeast Newfoundland cod. Northern cod is showing a slow increase. It’s still well below its limit reference point, but it has been showing a slow increase in the last ten years or so. In other areas, we haven’t seen a similar positive trend over time. They’ve either been low or continuing to decline. We’ve already mentioned the example of southern gulf cod and the demonstrated impact on seals, at least from a quantitative analysis.
If I first speak to northern cod, using the best available information on diet throughout marine communities, not just seals but other marine mammals, fish, et cetera, with that best available information, the analyses that have been completed to date by my colleagues in DFO Newfoundland region have not demonstrated that seals are impacting long-term trends of what we see in northern cod. In fact, the amount of consumption from seals is less than that consumed by the suite of other fish on cod. Again, that’s using the best available information.
The two best examples of trying to tease out the predation effect of seals on depressed fish stocks are that example I just provided in Newfoundland, and, of course, the southern gulf. In fact, within the southern gulf, it’s been demonstrated that it’s not only northern cod that seals are impacting in terms of recovery. It’s American plaice, winter skate and hake, so a fair a number of species.
You need to realize those areas are quite different in terms of their ecology and geography. The southern Gulf of St. Lawrence is a small area, fairly uniform and there’s defined overwintering habitat for cod, whereas with northern cod, it’s a very broad area of the Newfoundland-Labrador shelf.
To come back to your question, there’s still active research undergoing to further drill down into that question, not just in Newfoundland and in the Gulf of St. Lawrence, but also on the Scotian Shelf.
Again, Dr. den Heyer is involved in some of that work and can speak to it a little bit, if you like.
Ms. den Heyer: Again, thank you.
I think Ken did a very good job summarizing the range of work that’s done, and there is active research going on. I am involved in a project in southwest Nova Scotia — it’s early stages now — looking at the link between seals and cod there.
Senator Cordy: When we ask the fishers who have appeared before our committee, they’ve all certainly laid the blame directly at the amount of cod that each seal eats, causing the population to not grow. Many expected that in the years the cod fishery significantly reduced, that the cod fish would come back to life, for want of a better word, and growth would begin. You’re saying that it’s not the seals. The fishing industry people who have come, if not all, the majority have said it’s been the seal population.
Mr. Smedbol: Thank you for the question. Perhaps I’ll start, and Nell and I will tag team on the answer.
First, again, with cod populations around Newfoundland, particularly that study I just mentioned, it does use, as I said, best-available information. The results do not indicate that seals have no impact; rather, the outcome says it’s not the major driver of the trend in the population. So it’s not zero, but it’s not causing the trend that we see. In fact, the total consumption is less than, as I said, what we see from other predators of cod.
Now, one caveat to all these types of diet and ecosystem type studies is that they, of course, are dependent on high quality data on consumption from a suite of species, not just seals, if you will, but other species that may eat your species of interest. We need to have good coverage of that information in time and space because, of course, seal populations move through time and migrate, and so do a lot of the prey species. You have this movement going on in time and space, and you have to try to capture those overlaps.
Certainly in our sampling to date — and this is not just in Newfoundland. Pretty well everywhere except in the Southern Gulf, we have gaps in time and space. For instance, you can imagine how difficult it is to gather samples of seal consumption in the offshore during the winter. It’s not a trivial undertaking. It’s quite expensive.
Perhaps I’ll turn again to Dr. den Heyer at this point.
Ms. den Heyer: Thank you for the question.
I will echo Ken’s response. Where we have looked at direct impacts and tried to assess the role of seal predation and mortality in a stock assessment, we do see, I think in a number of cases, particularly in the Gulf of St. Lawrence, evidence of seals impeding recovery, so contributing to natural mortality. It needs to be assessed within the context of all the sources of mortality, and that work is very much ongoing. There are a number of other species that are consuming any one prey item, so it’s sort of large-scale work to evaluate the role of seals in any one species.
Then, we do need to be concerned about the unexpected impacts. Seals eat a broad range of species, so they may have other impacts on the species that affect the species you’re looking at. It’s just a cautionary note that it’s not always a simple one-to-one question. There can be competitors, such that there could be seals consuming other species that predate on a particular species. It’s certainly a question that is being well investigated in many fora, but it isn’t an easy question. It has a lot of aspects that need to be considered.
Mr. Smedbol: I think one thing I would add to my response is that the work in our sampling in no way invalidates the observations of local fishers and harvesters. That’s factual. Rather, if you need to evaluate the overall impact of a population on another population, you have to look at it in a broader context. There could very well be relatively high levels of predation in local areas, but is that level of predation equivalent throughout the range of the population? I want to stress that. It doesn’t invalidate observations on the water. It’s putting it in context.
Senator Cordy: What other predators are depleting the cod stocks?
Mr. Smedbol: Thank you for the question. That’s not a short answer. Again, maybe I’ll speak broadly about predation and community interactions in the ocean and then turn to Nell on some specifics.
One of the interesting things about predation and consumption in a marine environment is that often it’s size-related. You can actually have a species eating one species of one size, and then that species eating that species when it’s a different size. It can be size-related. Not to sound facetious, but basically anything that is big enough will eat something that’s relatively small.
If we focus on Atlantic cod, what eats Atlantic cod is a function of how big the cod is and kind of where it is. With juvenile cod, a lot of marine mammals and large piscivores, basically all big fish, will eat cod. Then they grow out of that window, and they are predated either by themselves, other large cod, or the top-level predators within a system. Marine mammals could certainly be considered in that, as well as sharks and other very large fish, depending on which population it would be.
There’s not a simple answer to that, and it also depends on the local community structure. What may be feeding on cod in the upper Bay of Fundy may be a different predator suite than you would see, say, off Southern Labrador, simply because there are different community structures.
Nell, could you help me out with that one? Thanks.
Ms. den Heyer: I think that is the general list. It would be large piscivorous fish and then other marine mammals. We have other sources of mortality that are unaccounted for, which would be related to fisheries as well. There are a number of things.
We have at times made significant efforts to do ecosystem modelling in a number of the ecosystems in Atlantic Canada, so there are sources of information that sort of outline that as well and evaluate the relative contribution of some species.
The Chair: During the Seal Summit, we heard — I stand to be corrected, and Senator Ravalia could help me — I think the estimated seal population off the coast of Newfoundland and Labrador is 7.3 million. Again, I can never figure out how you count 7.3 million seals, but anyway, I’m sure there’s a method there somewhere. There’s no doubt in my mind that they’re consuming a fair amount of cod. We heard at the Seal Summit that there have been places in the province where they’ve opened the stomachs of a seal and found 30 to 40 crabs. I guess with a lack of cod in some places, they’re going to find something else to eat.
I’m just wondering, if the seal population is not the major driver of the cod collapse, what, in your opinion, is? When was the last time there was a comprehensive study done on that particular topic of the cod population versus the seal population and the interaction between both of them, if I’m wording the question the way I want to word it?
Mr. Smedbol: Thank you for the question.
To preface my comments, I’m based in the Maritimes region, not in the Newfoundland region, so I’m familiar with some of it, but we’re not the experts who are actually tasked with working on that.
The most recent study would be from about 2018 or 2019 for northern cod and seal predation. As I said, that work, both by DFO scientists and some external collaborators, does demonstrate that harp seals have a non-trivial impact on the removals of cod. It’s just that it’s not the main driver of the population trends. From that particular study, the indication is that it is more what we call a bottom-up driver, that is, mainly oceanographic conditions affecting cod prey, which is mainly capelin and shrimp. The relative abundance of capelin and shrimp is the bigger driver of cod abundance than predation on cod. I think bottom up instead of top down is the way to describe it.
Again, that is an area of active research. The work is still ongoing, and there’s a recognition of the need to fill in some of our information gaps in time and space. All the work that’s been published to date is based on the best available information, but that doesn’t mean the work is complete. Certainly, we can collect more information related to consumption in time and space to properly sample that variation through time and space. That’s a key thing.
You can see it in the examples that were given earlier about particular seals opened up and consuming a lot of cod. As I said, that’s a factual observation. The trick is, when you think about the range of northern cod — you know, 2J, 3KL, 30 degrees of latitude — it’s a very broad population. You need to be able to sample through time and space to get a good idea of what is happening everywhere at the same time. That’s not easily done. It is an area of focus, and we continue to work on that. It is an area of active research.
I’ll turn again to Dr. den Heyer, if she’s aware of some of the details on it, but I’m not familiar with specific projects in the region at the moment.
Ms. den Heyer: The seven million seals foraging off Newfoundland, of course, would be the harp seals. Dr. Smedbol has done a very good job in explaining some of the nuance that comes in trying to understand the impact of those seals on cod, both through consumption and through the consumption of their prey and predators. There is a complicated story there, and I think that there has been ongoing and very productive work, and I think Dr. Smedbol just spoke to that.
With respect to grey seals, we can go back to the example in the southern Gulf of St. Lawrence, where the role of seals and the lack of recovery of cod has been well explored, and similar work has been done in the Scotian Shelf. It was some of the first work with efforts to do direct modelling of seal-cod interactions on the Scotian Shelf. We have some ongoing work in southwest Nova Scotia now, also looking at including in an assessment model of cod and the potential impact of seal mortality.
We do have those works going on, but again, I’m from Maritimes region. I don’t have quite as much to say about the Newfoundland experience, except that I can say that there is a recognition that seals are consuming fish and that it does have an impact on the ecosystem. It’s just very difficult to make a one-to-one link.
The Chair: Thank you. I’m wondering if you could forward to the committee, if possible, the latest report that you may have on those particular questions and any other recent report that you think would be helpful to us in trying to determine the issue with seals.
Ms. den Heyer: Yes, I can do that.
The Chair: Thank you.
Senator McPhedran: I want to preface my questions with an acknowledgment that, when we’re in the midst of a study like this, it’s almost judicial in nature in that we have to base everything in our findings and recommendations on the evidence that we’ve received. My questions are going to be geared to some previous evidence that we’ve heard, in particular on October 20, 2022, from the Atlantic Seal Science Task Team, because I’m hearing some quite different information. I’d really like to be able to provide as much opportunity as possible for you to respond since, presumably, you weren’t with us on October 20.
I think it’s fair to say that we’ve heard reference to Norway linking fish population decline primarily to seal consumption of fish. On the other hand, through DFO, you seem to still — both tonight and in some of the reports that we’ve heard about — point to overfishing as the primary driver for the decline in fish population. From the Atlantic Seal Science Task Team, we actually heard them say that they thought a lot of your data were incorrect and that they really felt that the harvesting community itself was not being used nearly to the extent that would be optimal for gathering more accurate information.
I have a number of questions that come out of that, and my first one is a point that you made, Dr. Smedbol. If I heard you correctly, you mentioned that there’s a slight increase in cod in only one area, and I think you have said it’s in northeast Newfoundland. Has there been a decrease in the seal population in that area?
Mr. Smedbol: Thank you for the question.
The assessment for northern cod, which is the Atlantic cod that reside in regions 2J, 3KL and the northeast regions of Newfoundland, certainly, the population is still well below what we call its limit reference point from its integrated fishery management plan. It’s still deep in the critical zone after declining to very low levels relative to historical biomass, down to a few percentage points. At a time when it was level, over the past ten years, starting about really — off the top of my head now, and I may not be accurate to a year or two — around 2015, we started to see a general increase in abundance. It is still well below the limit reference point, but we are seeing an increase in the population. Over the last several years, again off the top of my head, I think we’ve seen that increase slow or stop. I’d have to go back and check.
We only assess harp seals about every five years, so you’re talking about two or three points of assessment relative to that time. I may defer again to Dr. den Heyer, but I think the north harp population, which is the main population that overlaps in space and time with northern cod, was showing around about 7 million seals in that area.
Senator McPhedran: Is that a decline or an increase? Could you make a relative statement?
Mr. Smedbol: I would say it would be about the same. Maybe an increase. I can check, as we move on.
Senator McPhedran: Please.
Mr. Smedbol: Certainly, speaking about the Atlantic cod, there was a gradual increase for a relatively short period of time during a period of high abundance of seals. That increase has slowed or stopped in the past several years.
Now, there are several other things that are going on around that as well. Those two variables don’t exist in isolation in the rest of them. For instance, there has been an increase in harvest. There are demonstrated decreases in prey populations like capelin over that period. You need to think about it in a broader context.
That’s about the extent of my knowledge on that particular issue. Certainly, as I said, other populations of Atlantic cod in the Canadian waters aren’t showing any demonstrable increase during that period.
I remembered the first part of the question. I beg your pardon The first part of the question related to decline versus recovery. This is an area that has been well researched and well studied, both by scientists within the department and external academics around the world. Most of that work done points to overfishing as the main cause of the collapse of cod populations. The subsequent work related to seals points more about recovery of fish populations, or the lack thereof, relative to consumption by seals.
Senator McPhedran: Turning to my next question, if I may, would you say that DFO is satisfied with the quality and the breadth of the seal population data that you’re collecting now? You have reached a point where you have a methodology. You have a way of approaching this research. Is this satisfactory from the DFO perspective?
Mr. Smedbol: Thank you for the question. I may parse that into two parts, if I may.
The first part is that the analyses that have been done with the best available information, the information that exists to date and upon which DFO science has used to provide its advice, that work has been peer reviewed in internal and external fora. It has met the muster of the science community. Certainly, that involves the techniques and the analyses that have been done. That has passed peer review.
On the second part of the question, again, when I finish, I will turn to my colleague Dr. den Heyer. I had mentioned earlier that there is an acknowledgment, certainly within DFO science sector, of gaps within that information suite both in time and in space. We have publicly stated, even with those analyses that have been published or statements with this, that certainly there are gaps in the availability of information in time and space to fill in some of those gaps which would potentially improve the determination of the linkages between not just consumption but how that functions within the system.
I think of my answer as a “yes and.” We stand by what has been done to date but always recognize that that work has been done with the information that is available at the time. Certainly, there is value in filling in some of those gaps and in building collaborations as necessary to help address those gaps.
Dr. den Heyer, is there anything you would like to add?
Ms. den Heyer: Certainly we do provide harvest advice on a regular basis, based on a stock assessment framework that is well routined. We know that we can estimate how many seals there are. In terms of grey seals and harp seals, it’s a similar structure. We get estimates of the number of pup production. We fit it to a time series of pup productions. We take into account life history characteristics, such as survival and reproductive rates which we can get either from the market capture program on Sable or from samples for reproductive rates which we get in the Gulf of St. Lawrence for grey seals. We can fit assessment models. We can provide advice on how many seals there are. We can provide advice for harvest. We can also provide that information for research that is done into the role of seals in the ecosystem.
Other work that we have done that contributes to understanding the role of seals includes a productive program of doing satellite tagging for tracking seals. We have also done a lot of that work through collaboration with academic partners. We have put out a variety of instruments on seals in order to better understand where and when they are foraging so that the impact of the seals can be considered in the appropriate stocks. This includes work that we have done with Dalhousie and the Ocean Tracking Network. We had little hydrophones that we were putting on seals so we could record their interaction with other acoustically tagged animals. We have put out accelerometers. We have also more recently invested in exploring camera technologies so that we can better understand the foraging of grey seals. There is work that we have ongoing.
We also have, through all of the work that we do, every time we handle a seal, we collect samples so that we can get an estimate of diet from the chemical signals that are in either the fur or the blubber. We use stable isotope analysis. We have been collecting samples for stable isotope analysis and fatty acids so we can better understand diet.
Certainly, we have, through a number of fora, identified gaps. We identify the uncertainties always we when we do our assessments and our population estimates. We also now know that there are gaps in our information when it comes to understanding the role of seals in the ecosystem. The most difficult thing to keep track of, I think, and one of the bigger gaps is diet. Then the next one would be where and when seals are foraging. Part of the reason that that’s a big gap is that those are difficult questions and they are difficult to answer. They are also things that could be changing in response to a number of local and larger-scale changes. You could see changes throughout the area, and you could see changes over time. Those are the big gaps where we will need to continue to do work as we move forward.
Senator McPhedran: Thank you very much.
One of the other things we heard was a concern that DFO research is not fully benefitting from connecting to harvesters, the range that they cover and the circumstances that they are essentially experts on. Does DFO feel that there is room for better communication with harvesters and, in particular, about samples, what is needed and how to collect samples? One of the other points we heard was that it was not experienced as clear direction as to what DFO was needing. My question is also geared to taking into account, for example, that seals often belly bite. They don’t take a whole fish. Are you looking at ways to gather wider, more complete data? Are you looking at ways to more fully involve harvesters?
Mr. Smedbol: Thank you for the question. Again, I see that as a two-part answer. I’ll speak generally about it.
Most of the sampling that is undertaken by commercial harvesters or First Nations on behalf of DFO science occurs in either Newfoundland and Labrador region or Quebec region. I don’t have direct experience with managing those programs.
Senator McPhedran: Why is there a regional difference?
Mr. Smedbol: Mostly it is related to — again, I will defer to Dr. den Heyer — the harvest is very small in the Maritimes regions. We do have a harvest for grey seals, but it is very small.
Most of the diet collection on grey seals occurs through Quebec region — again, I will look at the screen. Nell is nodding, so that’s good — and done in the Gulf of St. Lawrence, because even though 80% of the population of grey seals breed on Sable, they do migrate into the gulf seasonally. Within the Maritimes region, there hasn’t been the need to collect the samples relative to areas where they have both larger hunts and more of a concern around the impact of seals on local populations. Part of it is access in the Maritimes, and the other part is prioritization of the work.
I had mentioned earlier that certainly there are gaps in collection in terms of locations and times, both for grey seal and harp seal. Generally speaking, if there are partnerships that could be developed that could enhance that sampling, I would imagine my colleagues would be very interested in having those conversations. I certainly would be. Working with commercial harvesters to collect information is common across harvested species on all three of our coasts, so it’s not like we don’t know how to do this type of collaboration.
I also mentioned earlier that the number of samples that are coming into DFO science, of course, has been reduced because the hunt has been reduced over time.
Broadly speaking, the science sector is always willing to have conversations about collaborations and partnerships that can forward our mandate, improve the science and the collection of our science advice, fill knowledge gaps and that sort of thing. There is always interest in those types of collaborations, but they have to work for both sides. We have a mandate and priorities, and a potential collaborator has interest, capacity and limitations. You have to find a project and a methodology that works for both.
The second part of the question, if I may, related to the direction given to commercial harvesters or other harvesters to provide samples. That’s outside my realm of experience, so I can’t comment on that directly.
The Chair: If I heard you correctly in your opening remarks, Mr. Williams, I believe 1% of the total allowable catch of grey seals was harvested last year, and 7% of the harp seals. Over a five-year span, only 149,000 harp seals were harvested. I wonder how you determine the TAC, or total allowable catch. What information goes into the determination when the harvesting is so low? Many people that I talk to in my fishing community believe that the TAC is not large enough for other species. I realize that it has not been harvested, and I understand the reasons why it’s not been harvested in some cases. How do you determine the TAC for the number of seals that are permitted to be harvested, might be a good way of putting it?
Mr. Williams: My first point is that since 2016, we haven’t actually set a formal TAC, simply because we weren’t coming close to those targets and it only attracted negative attention more broadly. If we ever come close to those levels again, we can introduce measures to address that.
In setting a total allowable catch, first and foremost, of course, is science, the information coming to us. Earlier there was conversation about the communication with harvesters. We do have an advisory process, the Atlantic Seal Advisory Committee, that we convene at least once a year, if not more. We bring in those harvesters, our DFO scientists and others to review that information. They make their recommendations, and we work with that to provide a recommendation to the minister.
In terms of our approach, we do have a framework. It’s a precautionary approach. Our objective, like with any other stock, is to maintain a healthy stock and to ensure that it remains in the healthy zone of that precautionary approach. With this approach, the idea is that the resource builds over time for long-term sustainability. It’s not really meant to bring stock down. By design, it’s to improve the health of a stock over time.
So we run into a bit of a conundrum, from a fish management perspective, in trying to manage the seal harvest. The objective — and there are some calculations that go into it, and Ken might be able to explain that — is in terms of ensuring that the take does not fall below a certain threshold where the long-term sustainability of a resource is threatened.
Senator Busson: I want to take the opportunity with such esteemed knowledge and expertise at the table. I’m the lone voice from the West Coast. There are seals on the West Coast. I know you know that. Our study is actually nationwide. I don’t mean to put you on the spot, because your expertise is observations and scientific research for the scientists here from the East Coast, but would there be any dynamic operating factors on the West Coast that would change your general observations and the discussion we’re having around — I’m learning that you don’t call it a food chain; it’s a food network. After today, it’s now a food puzzle. Are there any operating factors on the West Coast that would change your general comments about predation and factors about how we would understand seal habits and populations on the West Coast?
Mr. Smedbol: Thank you for the question. It’s a good one.
Certainly, there are always regional ecosystem-based factors that may not be the same when you move from ecosystem to ecosystem. There are local or regional factors that need to be taken into account. Thinking about the geography, first of all, it’s certainly a convoluted geography on the West Coast. There are lots of islands and inlets. Seals and sea lions tend to be quite coastal, whereas a harp seal could be out on the ice 200 kilometres from shore, so there is that idea about the residency of it. Certainly, there are differences in terms of oceanography and the suite of potential predators and prey.
I’m not sure about specifics. Perhaps Dr. den Heyer — I think she’s shaking her head.
Ms. den Heyer: Yes, it’s a difficult question. I don’t have anything specific to add. They are facing the same challenges that we face in trying to estimate how many animals there are, what they are eating and where they are eating it. I suspect it’s the same sort of broad challenges, but the specific answers will be specific to the locations you’re working in.
Mr. Smedbol: The West Coast assessment for harbour seal has been published recently. The accuracy and precision is quite robust on that assessment. Not get into the details, but we have 80,000, plus or minus 3,000, which is quite a robust assessment. I know they are doing tagging work and a lot of the diet work as well. That’s ongoing. They factor in things like availability to the survey through dive times and things like that. It’s quite a robust assessment.
The Chair: When you talk about tagging, can you explain the process? How is the information gathered, and how do you receive the information back? To what extent is tagging used to gather that information?
Mr. Smedbol: Thank you for the question.
Several techniques are used that we reference broadly as tagging: conventional tagging, satellite tagging, even some photogrammetry. We have an expert on the line who leads some of that research on grey seals, so perhaps I’ll turn it to Dr. den Heyer so she can provide some examples.
Ms. den Heyer: Certainly, the grey seal program has benefitted from a long-term study, which is a mark-recapture study where we look at individually marked seals.
Generally, when we speak about tagging for the seals, we are talking these days about satellite telemetry tags, data-logging tags. These tags go on seals. We affix them to the fur of the seals, and then we can track where the seals go. Antennas are there collecting location information from satellites. We can keep track of the seals when they are at the surface. If we recover those instruments, which we do regularly at our program on Sable Island, we get additional data that is logged on the instruments. That’s the majority of the tagging work we would be talking about, satellite tagging.
Some of these tags have additional capacities. Most of them are collecting information on dive depth. Some of them are collecting information on light levels. You can get additional sources of information. We have been putting accelerometers on seals, and these are basically — I think the best analogy is a Fitbit that records small-scale movements, and we can get that information back and learn about how the seals are moving in the ocean and link that to their foraging. We have been recently tagging seals with animal-borne cameras so we can observe their foraging at sea.
There are a number of electronic tags that have been used. We have also used acoustic tags, and then back in the day — and we still do some of this — we just put on regular old cattle tags on seals so that we can keep track of individual seals if you get close enough to read the cattle tag. There are a number of tagging programs, but generally, when people talk about tagging to understand foraging distribution, they are talking about these satellite tags that let us know where the seals are at sea.
We see them when they are hauled out. They go to sea for 5 to 10 days, at least grey seals. To know where they are when they are at sea is important to understanding their impact.
Senator McPhedran: This is a quick question but it might not be a quick answer. Have you developed, are you going to develop, are you considering developing ways in which you can communicate more fully and regularly with harvesters, and in particular with Indigenous peoples? Are you looking at ways that you can incorporate more qualitative experiential data information in your research?
Mr. Williams: In terms of the advisory committee that we do have, there is certainly Indigenous participation as a part of that. In fact, like all of our advisory committees, we collaborate with them fully. They do bring exceptional expertise. Especially on the sealing side, it is not just the actual harvest element, but what we have seen and what the Seal Summit provided an opportunity to see first-hand was the incredible impact that the harvest had in those particular communities where largely women would make products with those. You could see how that harvest then translates into social and economic benefits to those communities.
Certainly, there is an opportunity there to improve communication and collaboration. To pick up on Dr. Smedbol’s points earlier about ways in which we can collaborate, some of those tools already exist. We have section 10 under the Fisheries Act, which does allow and, in fact, encourages groups, whether it’s an Indigenous group or other group of harvesters, to come forward and under a collaborative agreement work with DFO science, and also fisheries management, if required, and using an allocation of fish to fund those science activities under section 10 of the Fisheries Act. That’s an example of a tool that we have used, and I think there are always ways to improve communication. Certainly, as chair of this particular committee, I have taken that to heart and have worked in that regard from a science perspective.
Mr. Smedbol: Thank you for the question.
I think within science, and to your question about including Indigenous perspectives, Indigenous knowledge and activities, and to pinniped assessment, we actually have solid examples of that in the North where certainly members from wildlife management boards participate directly in the assessments. They are responsible for a fair portion of the data collection. They are full partners within the work. That is certainly a model that we can learn from and apply perhaps to the other two coasts. I’m focused on the East Coast. That’s where I work. I am aware of some initiatives in the Pacific with Indigenous communities and ongoing discussions around data collection for harvest, and even building in on this issue of seal predation and impacts on populations. As I said, I’m not highly familiar with that work, and I don’t know the current state of that work, but certainly, we have ongoing programs in the North I think that can serve as a good model potentially for expanding those types of collaborations into the East Coast.
Senator McPhedran: May I ask a similar question of Dr. den Heyer?
Ms. den Heyer: Yes, I guess I can be specific.
Senator McPhedran: In your case, Dr. den Heyer, I will say a bit more as part of my question. I’m looking at an article that is entitled “Patience, collaboration and some cool gadgets pay off in Atlantic halibut harvest,” and you are cited in that article. The example that the article is built around is collaboration with fishers and the fact that fishers took the initiative to gather their own data and brought that to DFO, and that has resulted in some significant changes. My question is, of course, what I have already asked our other two witnesses, but in your case, I would just like to ask whether something similar is happening around the cod population and seals.
Ms. den Heyer: The experience with Atlantic halibut rose out of a long-term initiative by some fish harvester groups to run a survey, and then they have leveraged that to do more work. That program is actually funded through the Atlantic Fisheries Fund. We have that group of harvesters to work with in Maritimes Region. We don’t have the same extent of a harvesting community to work with for the seal harvesters, but if there were opportunities to collaborate with seal harvesters, we would be open to that. With respect to grey seals, there is collaboration with the sampling that does get done in the Gulf of St. Lawrence. It’s just that in Maritimes Region, we don’t have as large a harvest for seals as they do in the other regions. It is absolutely a good example, though, of collaboration.
Senator McPhedran: If I could build on that question, though, I’m also wondering about the relationship with the cod fishers, not just about harvesting of seals. Is there an opportunity to get more and better information directly from the cod fishers?
Ms. den Heyer: There are other collaborations that DFO has had with the cod-fishing communities. I must admit, I don’t know exactly the state of them, but we had longline collaborative surveys being done with cod harvesters in eastern Nova Scotia and in Cape Breton. There are DFO collaborations with the cod fishermen for questions pertaining to cod fisheries, but we haven’t had any specifically addressing seal-cod interactions.
Senator McPhedran: Is that possible? Is that under consideration?
Mr. Smedbol: If I can add to Dr. den Heyer’s response, one of the constraints about building similar sort of fishery-based information collection for cod in the Maritimes is that the population is closed for harvest, except for 4X and 5Y. On the eastern Scotian Shelf, it overlaps the large grey seal feeding columns. Cod is actually closed to fishing in that area.
We have, on the commercial harvest side, for, as I said, a suite of species, ongoing collaborations in the Maritimes. I’ve been away on assignment for the last year and a half, but when I was division manager, I was responsible for that work. We had, at one point, nine collaborative agreements, and several of them were section 10, led by our fishing industry colleagues. There’s a long history of interaction on commercial fishing and data collection, industry surveys and collaborative work, and those scale according to the questions that are of interest to the harvest community or to the harvest associations. They can be quite broad surveys, or they can be relatively small questions, additional sampling, for instance, for lobster sort of thing. I’ll talk about this for a long time, if you want, because it’s an area that is dear to my heart.
I concede your point, and certainly, there is always room to continue and perhaps enhance those types of discussions with groups who are interested in collaborating.
The Chair: I want to thank our guests this evening. It’s been a very informative and interesting conversation. Getting into the details of where we get the information from and how we use that information that is gathered is very important to us as a committee also. I certainly want to thank you for taking the time to join us here this evening.
To be clear — I wouldn’t want Senator Cordy to be taken out of context or be misquoted — John Crosby did not use the adjective “darn” when he talked about the fish.
Senator Cordy: Words to that effect.
The Chair: You were close, but it was a bit more colourful than “darn.”
This has been interesting. Our study is delving into things that are really taking on a world of their own in relation to where we started from, and we’re learning more as we go, and certainly we’ve learned from your expertise here this evening. We want to thank you for taking the time to join us.
(The committee adjourned.)