THE STANDING SENATE COMMITTEE ON NATIONAL SECURITY AND DEFENCE
EVIDENCE
OTTAWA, Monday, December 13, 2021
The Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence met with videoconference this day at 2 p.m. [ET], pursuant to rule 12-13 of the Rules of the Senate, to organize the activities of the committee.
[English]
Ericka Dupont, Clerk of the Committee: Honourable senators, as clerk of your committee, it is my duty to preside over the election of the chair. I am ready to receive a motion to that effect.
Senator Boehm: I move:
That the Honourable Senator Tony Dean do take the chair of this committee.
Ms. Dupont: Thank you, senator.
Are there any other nominations? Seeing none, it is moved by the Honourable Senator Boehm that the Honourable Senator Dean do take the chair of this committee. Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion? I declare the motion carried, and I invite the Honourable Senator Dean to take the chair.
Senator Tony Dean (Chair) in the chair.
The Chair: Thank you, Madam Clerk, and thank you, honourable senators, for your support this morning. It’s greatly appreciated. I’m looking forward to our work together. We’ve got a strong and experienced committee. It is evenly split, I would note, or at least close to evenly split between returning members and some experienced new members. That should make a good mix for the work that we have ahead of us.
I’d like to start by formally introducing committee members who are here with us today, starting with Senator Margaret Dawn Anderson representing the Northwest Territories; Senator Peter Boehm representing Ontario; Senator Pierre-Hugues Boisvenu representing Quebec; Senator Donna Dasko representing Ontario; Senator Marty Deacon representing Ontario; Senator Mobina Jaffer representing the Province of British Columbia, as does Senator Yonah Martin who is also with us today; Senator David Richards represents New Brunswick; and Senator Hassan Yussuff represents Ontario.
Colleagues, as you know, this is an important committee with a broad history, a broad mandate and an exceptional history of delivery in terms of both the review of legislation and the study of crucial areas of public policy and operations in the broad sweep of national security, defence and veterans affairs.
I recommend to new members of the committee the background document outlining the origin, history and recent activities of the committee, which demonstrates the scope and depth of the committee’s work but also the manner in which the committee’s activities have been curtailed by the impact of the COVID pandemic. You should have received this document with the introductory memorandum, but it will be sent again following the meeting.
Senators, we’ll move to the balance of today’s business, commencing with the election of the deputy chair. I will at this time ask for nominations for the deputy chair.
Senator Richards: I move:
That the Honourable Senator Dagenais be deputy chair of this committee.
The Chair: Thank you. Are there any other nominations, senators? Seeing none, we’ll move to a vote. Is it agreed that Senator Dagenais be approved as deputy chair of the committee?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: I declare the motion carried. Thank you very, very much.
Colleagues, Senator Dagenais is approved as deputy chair. I have spoken with Senator Dagenais in advance of the meeting, and pending our appointments — if we ended up in the seats we hoped to end up this afternoon — we agreed to proceed with today’s business and to establish the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure. This is the third item on our agenda. Pending agreement to establish the subcommittee, it’s our intention to convene the subcommittee as quickly as possible.
Do I have a mover for motion 3 on the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure?
Senator Jaffer: I so move.
The Chair: Senator Jaffer moved:
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be composed of the chair, the deputy chair and two other members of the committee, to be designated after the usual consultations; and
That the subcommittee be empowered to make decisions on behalf of the committee with respect to its agenda, to invite witnesses, and to schedule hearings.
Honourable senators, is the motion carried?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: I declare the motion carried.
I will state for the record that the two additional members appointed to the subcommittee are Senators Anderson and Boisvenu.
Honourable senators, do I have a mover for motion 4 to publish the committee’s proceedings?
Senator Yussuff has moved:
That the committee publish its proceedings.
Is the motion carried? Thank you very much. I declare the motion carried. Thank you, senators.
Do I have a mover for motion 5 relating to research staff?
Senator Martin: I so move, Mr. Chair.
The Chair: Senator Martin moves:
That the committee ask the Library of Parliament to assign analysts to the committee;
That the chair be authorized to seek authority from the Senate to engage the services of such counsel and technical, clerical, and other personnel as may be necessary for the purpose of the committee’s examination and consideration of such bills, subject-matters of bills, and estimates as are referred to it;
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be authorized to retain the services of such experts as may be required by the work of the committee; and
That the chair, on behalf of the committee, direct the research staff in the preparation of studies, analyses, summaries, and draft reports.
Is the motion carried?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Thank you. I declare the motion carried.
It’s now my pleasure to introduce the committee analysts, Ariel Shapiro and Anne-Marie Therrien-Tremblay. Could we ask you to say a few words about the work that you do and introduce yourselves.
Ariel Shapiro, Analyst, Library of Parliament: Hello, my name is Ariel Shapiro. I’m one of the two analysts on this committee, along with my colleague Anne-Marie Therrien-Tremblay. On behalf of the Library of Parliament, we’re very much looking forward to helping this committee in all of its deliberations. Thank you very much.
The Chair: Thank you. Very kind of you.
Do I have a mover for motion 6, the authority to commit funds and certify accounts?
Senator Jaffer: I do.
The Chair: Senator Jaffer moves:
That, pursuant to section 7, chapter 3:05 of the Senate Administrative Rules, authority to commit funds be conferred individually on the chair, the deputy chair, and the clerk of the committee;
That, pursuant to section 8, chapter 3:05 of the Senate Administrative Rules, authority for certifying accounts payable by the committee be conferred individually on the chair, the deputy chair, and the clerk of the committee; and
That, notwithstanding the foregoing, in cases related to consultants and personnel services, the authority to commit funds and certify accounts be conferred jointly on the chair and deputy chair.
Is the motion carried?
I declare the motion carried. Thank you, senators.
Moving along to travel. Do I have a mover for motion 7 on travel?
Senator Richards: I move the motion.
The Chair: Senator Richards moves:
That the committee empower the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure to designate, as required, one or more members of the committee and/or such staff as may be necessary to travel on assignment on behalf of the committee.
Is the motion carried? I declare the motion carried.
Do I have a mover for motion 8 on travelling on committee business?
Senator M. Deacon: I so move.
The Chair: The Honourable Senator M. Deacon moves:
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be authorized to:
1) determine whether any member of the committee is on “official business” for the purposes of paragraph 8(3)(a) of the Senators Attendance Policy, published in the Journals of the Senate on Wednesday, June 3, 1998; and
2) consider any member of the committee to be on “official business” if that member is: (a) attending an event or meeting relating to the work of the committee; or (b) making a presentation related to the work of the committee; and
That the subcommittee report at the earliest opportunity any decisions taken with respect to the designation of members of the committee travelling on committee business.
Is the motion carried? I declare the motion carried. Thank you.
Do I have a mover for motion 9 on travelling and living expenses of witnesses?
Senator Boehm: I so move.
The Chair: Thank you. Senator Boehm moved:
That, pursuant to the Senate guidelines for witness expenses, the committee may reimburse reasonable travelling and living expenses of one witness per organization upon application, but that the chair be authorized to approve expenses of a second witness from the same organization should there be exceptional circumstances.
Is the motion carried? I declare the motion carried. Thank you.
Do I have a mover for motion 10 on communications? Senator Yussuff moved:
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be empowered to direct a communications officer(s) assigned to the committee in the development of communications plans and products where appropriate and to request the services of the Senate Communications Directorate for the purposes of the promotion of their work; and
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be empowered to allow coverage by electronic media of the committee’s public proceedings with the least possible disruption of its proceedings, at its discretion.
Honourable senators, is the motion carried? I declare the motion carried. Thank you.
Colleagues, this brings us to the final item before adjournment: Other business. The time slot for regular meetings, for your information, obviously, is 2 p.m. to 4 p.m., and I ask now if there are other motions or discussions that any senator on the committee would want to raise.
Senator Richards: Excuse me, Mr. Chair, is that 2 to 4 on Mondays?
The Chair: Yes, sorry.
Senator Richards: Okay, thank you very much.
Senator M. Deacon: I do have a question to the chair, and thank you for the formal business today. As you progress forward, have you or would you like to at this moment share with the committee the kinds of ways that you will be gathering priorities or studies or filling in the gaps of what things were done in the past that still need, perhaps, some work? I just wanted to know if you could chat about that for a moment.
The Chair: Certainly, and thank you for raising that, Senator Deacon. It goes to a call-out that I was going to make to all senators on the committee to both review the record of the committee’s proceedings, some of which, arguably, may be said to be unfinished, and to think about, going forward, areas of study or inquiry that you feel are important enough to warrant the committee’s attention.
In terms of both looking back and looking forward, it’s important that we review the landscape. Senator Dagenais and I and the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure will certainly be going through that process ourselves. I would ask senators on the committee to identify to any member of the steering committee those areas that they would either want to revisit or open up for consideration for future study. We will look forward to your ideas.
Is that a complete enough answer, Senator Deacon?
Senator M. Deacon: Thank you, Senator Dean.
Senator Martin: First of all, congratulations to you, the deputy chair and the steering committee. I know that there’s a lot of work that will get done, and so I just want to acknowledge the work that all of you will be doing on our behalf.
My question is about the Veterans Affairs subcommittee and whether there is a time slot and if that will also be the same process of just putting forward some ideas for committee studies for that subcommittee.
The Chair: I’m glad that you asked the question. I should have mentioned it, Senator Martin. At the current time, we don’t know whether or not there will be a time slot available for the Veterans Affairs subcommittee. That’s not to say that issues associated with Veterans Affairs should not be discussed, raised and considered at this committee. We will find out as quickly as we can. I understand that there was an issue with this in the last Parliament, but I think it’s fair to say — I’m looking at the clerk here — that at this point we don’t have sufficient information to activate that subcommittee, and that’s why it’s not on the agenda today.
Senator Martin: Thank you.
Senator Richards: Mr. Chair, I was chair of Veterans Affairs during the last Parliament, and that didn’t sit because of time restrictions. Is this because of hybrid? Is this because of the hybrid meetings we’re having and the amount of time that committees take up and that the time slot isn’t available? Is that the reason? Do you know?
The Chair: The clerk kindly reminds me, Senator Richards, that in the Selection Committee motion, a reference to the Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs was not present, so that’s an issue for us. That would have to be revisited.
My sense — and I’m guessing here also as a new member of this committee — is that that likely has much to do with the hybridization of our Senate activities, but there may be other reasons. I’m certainly happy to inquire into that.
Senator Richards: Okay, thank you.
The Chair: The clerk again reminds me — and I thank the clerk — that the committee can look for opportunities to raise issues or to activate the subcommittee if the circumstances arise, and it’s possible to do that. We’re all keeping an open mind on that, Senator Richards. We share many of the concerns that go to the breadth of the area of Veterans Affairs, so this is something that I think that we will all be keeping an eye on and looking to pursue. Once steering meets, though, this is certain to be raised at that committee, and we can discuss it further there. I’m happy to report back on those and any other discussions that we have and anything else that we find out. Thank you for raising it here today.
Senator Richards: Okay, thank you.
Senator Jaffer: Chair, I would also like to support what Senator Richards said. I used to also be chair of that subcommittee, and I genuinely believe that the issues are very different from our Defence Committee. First of all, it’s not good for the institution not to have Veterans for so long. Second, I do believe, and I would like everybody to think about this, that it’s a good idea to have veterans on the side of our table because they have some very serious issues at the moment. I believe the analysts should look at and bring to our attention, if I may suggest to steering, the challenges that veterans are facing as well. It’s very different from defence matters, and if we try to do both, we will lose one, and it often happens at the cost of veterans.
It’s really important we identify a time. One of the times that the Veterans Subcommittee used to meet — Senator Richards, you can correct me if I’m wrong — was on Wednesday afternoon before the Senate sat. That was one of the times that we sat. I believe that we should really identify some time, open sections, and go and get some time and not leave it this term.
Senator Richards: Yes, senator, we used to meet Wednesday afternoon. You’re correct on that. I don’t think we met as regularly as the Defence Committee did. I think it was once every couple of weeks, was it, or was it every week?
Senator Jaffer: Senator, it’s true that we didn’t meet as regularly, depending on whether we had a study going on or some serious issues. Presently there are many, many serious issues on veterans issues. If that was the case, then we met every Wednesday. It depended on what we were doing. It wasn’t as regular as this Defence Committee.
Senator Richards: Yes, exactly.
The Chair: All right. First of all, Senator Richards and Senator Jaffer, thank you for bringing your deep experience and wisdom and commitment to these issues to my attention and to our attention. This is something that I will raise as a first matter of business at the steering committee, and we will endeavour to look for time slots for some periodic meetings of this subcommittee. It’s very important that you’ve raised these issues with us and with me, and we will follow up. If we can find a time slot, we will find a time slot and activate that subcommittee.
Senator Jaffer: Chair, sorry, I don’t want to keep everybody and I don’t want to belabour it, but I don’t — with the greatest of respect — want to call it periodic meetings. As I said, at times we met every week, and it just depended on the Defence Committee. I respectfully would say to you not to let “the powers that be” think that the Veterans Subcommittee met periodically, because we did meet regularly when there was a study going on.
The Chair: It’s my word alone, Senator Jaffer, and it was probably not appropriate in the circumstances, so maybe I could say that in my mind periodically included the possibility of weekly.
Is there any other business for us today? With that, I thank you all. I thank the clerk and our staff. I particularly thank Senator Jaffer and Senator Richards for getting us focused on veterans’ issues.
This brings us to the end of our meeting. I thank you for your participation today, and I look forward to a productive session in which we give of our very best as senators to critical areas of public policy, public life and the health and welfare of Canadian citizens. Thank you very much. The meeting is adjourned.
(The committee adjourned.)