THE STANDING SENATE COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL AFFAIRS, SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY
EVIDENCE
OTTAWA, Tuesday, December 7, 2021
The Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology met this day at 9:00 a.m. [ET], by videoconference, for the purpose of holding its organization meeting, pursuant to rule 12-13 of the Rules of the Senate.
[Translation]
Daniel Charbonneau, Clerk of the Committee: As clerk of the committee, it is my duty to preside over the election of the chair.
[English]
I am ready to receive a motion to that effect.
Senator Bovey: I move that Senator Omidvar be elected as chair of this committee.
Mr. Charbonneau: It is moved by the Honourable Senator Bovey that the Honourable Senator Omidvar do take the chair.
Honourable senators, is it your pleasure to adopt the motion? I declare the motion carried. I invite Senator Omidvar to take the chair.
Senator Ratna Omidvar (Chair) in the chair.
The Chair: Thank you, colleagues, for your vote of confidence in me. I have been a member of this committee and watched it do terrific work under the leadership of Senator Ogilvie, Senator Eggleton and, most recently, Senator Petitclerc. This committee always worked collegially and efficiently with their guidance, and I certainly hope, with your help and cooperation, to continue that tradition and, if at all possible, amplify on it.
We will now proceed with the election of the deputy chair. I am ready to receive a motion to that effect. Are there any nominations?
Senator Bernard: I nominate Senator Bovey as deputy chair.
The Chair: Thank you. Are there any objections? I declare the motion carried. Congratulations, Senator Bovey.
We now have routine motions to adopt. These are standard motions that are consistent with past practice. The first is to the motion to create the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure.
Senator Boisvenu: Chair, I raised my hand.
The Chair: I apologize, Senator Boisvenu. You have the floor.
[Translation]
Senator Boisvenu: I’d like to nominate Senator Patterson as deputy chair of the committee.
[English]
The Chair: Senator Boisvenu, according to a motion that was passed in the Senate, the Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology, as well as some other committees, will only have one deputy chair.
[Translation]
Senator Boisvenu: However, Madam Chair, if there are two motions, do we have to vote?
[English]
The Chair: I’m afraid I didn’t quite hear that. Could you repeat?
Senator Boisvenu: Yes. If there are two people proposed for deputy chair, do we have to elect one of those?
The Chair: Senator Boisvenu, my understanding is that the deputy chair has been elected. That is Senator Bovey.
[Translation]
Senator Boisvenu: I’m sorry, but I had my hand up and you didn’t see me.
[English]
The Chair: I’m sorry, Senator Boisvenu. Could we please hear your comment again?
Senator Boisvenu: Yes. I raised my hand at the same time the Senator Bernard or Senator Lankin, but you didn’t see it.
The Chair: Senator Boisvenu, Senator Bovey has been nominated and elected as deputy chair according to procedure of this committee.
Senator Lankin: Madam Chair, just because it might be a bit easier when you are online seeing the screens, I wanted to confirm that Senator Boisvenu did put his hand up just seconds after Senator Bernard did. You didn’t recognize him at the time, so I think the fair thing to do, if he still wishes to put that name forward, is to have a vote. I think when it was an error of not being able to see the hand raised — it was raised in a timely fashion — that you have to accommodate that.
The Chair: Certainly, Senator Lankin. I’m new at this, and I will get better, I hope.
On the issue of the election of a deputy chair, the various groups have come to an agreement that the deputy chair of the Social Affairs Committee belongs to the Progressive Senate Group, and Senator Bovey is their nominee.
Senator Boisvenu: I agree with you. I just want to recall my proposition.
The Chair: Thank you, Senator Boisvenu, for that.
Senator Bernard, did you also want to weigh in? I did not recognize you right away.
Senator Bernard: I did make the nomination for Senator Bovey, so my nomination would stand. Thank you, chair.
The Chair: Are there any objections to the nomination of Senator Bovey? Let’s confirm that again. I hear none.
Congratulations, Senator Bovey, once again.
We now have some routine motions to adopt. These are standard motions that are consistent with past practice.
The first is the motion to create the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure, known as the steering committee. For this session, it was agreed that all four parties and groups would have a representative on the steering committee.
Do I have a proposer for motion 3?
[Translation]
Senator Boisvenu: I’m sorry about what happened earlier. It was my mistake. I move that Senator Patterson be a member of the steering committee.
[English]
The Chair: Senator Boisvenu, with your agreement, perhaps we can do the motion that is on the floor right now regarding the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure, and then we can go on to other steering committee members.
[Translation]
Senator Petitclerc: Before the adoption of motion 3, I’d like to suggest an amendment to the standard formula being proposed. I could read that amendment to you right now and give some explanations afterwards, if you agree.
I move that the motion be amended by replacing the words: “That the subcommittee be empowered to make decisions on behalf of . . .” with: “. . . responsible for considering and consulting with . . .”.
Those who have been members of this committee for some time are familiar with this amendment. It makes the subcommittee responsible for considering and consulting. The text of the amendment has been distributed, I believe. Do you want me to explain it now, Madam Chair? I think all my colleagues have the text.
[English]
The Chair: They do, and thank you for your motion. Before we get to your amendment to the motion, we still need someone to move the original motion that is before us. Do I have someone who is willing to do that? Senator Dasko so moves.
Perhaps now we can move to discuss Senator Petitclerc’s amendment. I believe everyone has a copy of the wording. If not, we can arrange to send it to you. Let me ask the first question, Senator Petitclerc, if I may. You were chair of this committee when this motion was adopted last time. Can you share your experiences with this new process and whether, from your point of view, it enhanced the committee work without also unnecessarily delaying it?
[Translation]
Senator Petitclerc: With pleasure, Madam Chair.
For our new colleagues on this committee, I will remind you that this amendment was proposed at the last organization meeting by our late colleague Senator Forest-Niesing and was subsequently adopted and put into practice. I won’t go into much detail, because most of my colleagues were already present, but I will be happy to answer questions.
Madam Chair, to answer your question specifically, yes, I’m reintroducing this amendment because in my experience with this steering committee, it has added value, because this committee — as we all know — has always been very collegial and has worked very well. The clarification of this amendment has added value and has, in a way, guided the steering committee, which is always very deliberate in its thinking about the needs of the members, and in its consultations. So it’s an added value that doesn’t add to the work of the steering committee.
Very quickly, the steering committee at the time — and this one as well I’m sure — came up with very simple mechanisms to put this amendment into practice without making things too cumbersome. In fact, once we tried it, it worked quite smoothly. So, obviously, I support this amendment and I hope we will bring it back.
[English]
The Chair: Thank you. Senator Petitclerc’s motion is on the floor. Is it your will to adopt this motion, colleagues?
Senator Patterson: I’m new to this committee, and I’m happy to be here today, but I would like to ask Senator Petitclerc a question.
Senator Petitclerc, you said that this motion can work fine without delaying. But does this amendment mean that the steering committee must have all its decisions first ratified by the full committee before their decisions can be finalized?
I will give a concrete example, if I may. Today, as I understand it, there is a steering committee meeting scheduled at 11 this morning, following this meeting. This is about launching a pre-study on Bill C-3. I imagine we will likely discuss a witness list since we want to get this pre-study going right away.
Hence my question. If the steering committee agrees on a list of witnesses and wants the clerk to get going organizing those witnesses, by this amendment, would we then have to first call a meeting of the full committee to ratify the witness list before we get going with the pre-study, which needs to start quickly? To me, that would cause a delay. Senator Petitclerc says the amendment can work without causing delays.
My experience is that steering committees meet on an ad hoc basis at the call of the chair, sometimes over weekends or during break weeks when it’s not easily possible to have the full committee meet. It seems to me that all groups in the Senate are represented on the steering committee. Therefore, I’m concerned that this amendment would, in fact, delay the work of the committee.
Finally, I do believe steering committees understand they represent their groups and their colleagues, and I have never seen steering committees make decisions that would be contrary to the will of the committee, but it seems to me, if we have to have every decision ratified by the full committee, we are going to delay the work of the committee. Thank you.
The Chair: Senator Petitclerc, would you like to answer that question from experience?
[Translation]
Senator Petitclerc: What I would say to you, as a member of this committee and a member of the steering committee, is that without this amendment from Senator Forest-Niesing, and with the amendment — because I’ve had both experiences . . . I understand your questions, and I would say very simply that I went through all of this fairly quickly on the steering committee. There were discussions to determine how we could get things done fast. There were studies and bills that came in very quickly, over the last few months, and the Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology was able to be fully operational thanks to this amendment.
In a very practical way, and with the permission of the committee members, as it should be, we devised a system where people were informed by email on a very regular basis. Basically, if committee members had questions, disagreed, or had additions to make, they would send their questions, additions, and comments to us, and it worked out very well.
I think the members of the committee who were with us at the time will tell you that there was no delay and that, on the contrary, it improved the communication we were able to establish with the members; we were also able to include some quality witnesses very quickly.
I would also add that our clerk could tell you that we were able to put all this into practice very quickly and well.
[English]
The Chair: If I may comment, I was on this committee in the session when this amendment was approved. I think there is a difference between the word “ratification” and the three Cs that are inherent in the principle of this amendment, which are “considering, consulting and communicating” and that’s what we will undertake to do.
Are we ready to vote on this motion, colleagues?
Seeing no objection, I declare the motion carried.
We go back to the original motion, which is to create the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure. Will someone move that motion? Senator Moodie moves the motion.
Seeing no objections, I declare the motion carried.
I am pleased to announce that Senators Patterson and Griffin will be our two other members of steering. I do not believe we need a vote for this. This was agreed to by the leaders.
Senator Griffin: Senator Verner will be the extra person on steering; we have had a change. I’m sorry about not informing you.
The Chair: Thank you, Senator Griffin, for that new piece of information. We now move to the motion to publish the committee’s proceedings. Do I have a proposer for motion 4?
The Honourable Senator Bovey moves:
That the committee publish its proceedings.
If there are no objections, I declare the motion carried.
Motion 5 is next, financial report: As per rule 12-26(2), each committee must table a report on the expenses incurred during the previous session, 42-2. A copy of the draft report prepared by the clerk was distributed by email.
Do I have a mover for the motion?
Senator Moodie has moved:
That the committee adopt the draft first report, prepared in accordance with rule 12-26(2).
Are there any objections? Seeing none, I declare the motion carried.
Motion 6 deals with research staff. Do I have a proposer for motion 6?
The Honourable Senator Dasko moved:
That the committee ask the Library of Parliament to assign analysts to the committee;
That the chair be authorized to seek authority from the Senate to engage the services of such counsel and technical, clerical, and other personnel as may be necessary for the purpose of the committee’s examination and consideration of such bills, subject-matters of bills, and estimates as are referred to it;
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be authorized to retain the services of such experts as may be required by the work of the committee; and
That the chair, on behalf of the committee, direct the research staff in the preparation of studies, analyses, summaries and draft reports.
Are there any objections to this motion?
Seeing none, I declare the motion carried.
I now invite the analysts to turn on their videos. We welcome Laura Munn-Rivard and Laura Blackmore. Welcome to both of you. I am sure we will keep you very busy in this session.
Moving on to motion 7, authority to commit funds and certify accounts. Do I have a proposer?
The Honourable Senator Bernard moved:
That, pursuant to section 7, chapter 3:05 of the Senate Administrative Rules, authority to commit funds to be conferred individually on the chair, the deputy chair, and the clerk of the committee;
That, pursuant to section 8, chapter 3:05 of the Senate Administrative Rules, authority for certifying accounts payable by the committee be conferred individually on the chair, the deputy chair, and the clerk of the committee; and
That, notwithstanding the foregoing, in cases related to consultants and personnel services, the authority to commit funds and certify accounts be conferred jointly on the chair and deputy chair.
Are there any objections? Seeing none, I declare this motion carried.
Motion 8 relates to travel, if we ever get to travel. Do I have a proposer?
Senator Bovey: So moved.
The Chair: The Honourable Senator Bovey moved:
That the committee empower the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure to designate, as required, one or more members of the committee and/or such staff as may be necessary to travel on assignment on behalf of the committee.
Are there any objections? I declare the motion carried.
Motion 9, designation of members travelling on committee business. Do I have a proposer for motion 9?
The Honourable Senator Dasko moved:
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be authorized to:
1) determine whether any member of the committee is on “official business” for the purposes of paragraph 8(3)(a) of the Senators Attendance Policy, published in the Journals of the Senate on Wednesday, June 3, 1998; and
2) consider any member of the committee to be on “official business” if that member is: (a) attending an event or a meeting related to the work of the committee; or (b) making a presentation related to the work of the committee; and
That the subcommittee report at the earliest opportunity any decisions taken with respect to the designation of members of the committee travelling on committee business.
Are there any objections? The motion is carried.
Motion 10 deals with travelling and living expenses of witnesses. Do I have a proposer for motion 10?
The Honourable Senator Bovey moved:
That, pursuant to the Senate guidelines for witness expenses, the committee may reimburse reasonable travelling and living expenses of one witness per organization upon application, but that the chair be authorized to approve expenses of a second witness from the same organization should there be exceptional circumstances.
Are there any objections, colleagues? Seeing none, I declare the motion carried.
Motion 11 deals with communications. Do I have a proposer for this motion?
The Honourable Senator Griffin moved:
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be empowered to direct communications officer(s) assigned to the committee in the development of communications plans and products where appropriate and to request the services of the Senate Communications Directorate for the purposes of the promotion of their work; and
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be empowered to allow coverage by electronic media of the committee’s public proceedings with the least possible disruption of its proceedings, at its discretion.
Are there any objections? The motion is carried.
I welcome Michael Forian to the committee. With that, I believe our team is complete with analysts, clerk, communications, steering committee, et cetera.
We are now at motion 11, other business. I would like to move a motion to go in camera at this time to discuss future business. Is it agreed, senators?
Senator Patterson: Why are we going in camera?
The Chair: Because we are going to discuss our work plan for Bill C-3. Thank you.
(The committee continued in camera.)