Employment Insurance Act—Employment Insurance Regulations
Motion in Subamendment--Debate Adjourned
October 25, 2022
Therefore, honourable senators, in amendment, I move:
That the motion in amendment be not now adopted, but that it be amended by:
1.adding the words “additional witnesses, including” between the words “to hear from” and “Parliamentary Budget Officer” in the first paragraph; and
2.by deleting the final paragraph.
Honourable senators, I think it’s wonderful to hear this focus in the Senate of Canada on those who are marginalized and disadvantaged in Prince Edward Island. It shows we’re focused on a very important part of our job, which is to represent regions and to represent issues that are not being as well debated sometimes as they need to be and where Parliament may not be acting in a way that serves every issue.
I would like to speak in support of the subamendment because the issue of Bill S-236 gets to the core of a very important national problem that we have, and it’s a business crisis in terms of labour shortage.
I want to speak to a bit of history I have on the Island. When I first worked there in the 1990s, I worked in a job where I had a board that I reported to, and sometimes I would come forward with issues that were concerning to employees and where employees were really hoping to have certain advancement so they could do their job better. I would often hear a response that was: Well, they’re just lucky to have a job in the first place.
At a certain point in time in this country, that was very much a perspective: that there was a line around the block for people to replace you in a position, and if you didn’t want to do the job as you were told, you could see yourself being replaced and you were lucky to have that job.
Things are different today. Twenty-five years later, Prince Edward Island actually has the youngest population in Atlantic Canada — it’s the fastest-growing population in all of Canada — and it has seen a tremendous change since the 1990s. I remember when former premier Wade MacLauchlan was president of the University of Prince Edward Island, or UPEI, and the crisis was so dire with an aging population and a lack of a vibrant working environment that he said, “Would the last person to leave P.E.I. please turn off the lights as they head out the door?” It was a really tough time on the Island.
Just to give you an example, between September 2021 and September 2022 there were 2,300 net new jobs, relatively speaking, created in the month of September on Prince Edward Island, mainly in manufacturing and construction, that were not there a year ago. There are a lot of people moving to Prince Edward Island. Last year 4,800 people moved to P.E.I., the fastest ever in 50 years in terms of population growth on the Island, but the trouble is that population growth is exacerbating a housing shortage that is also being exacerbated by a labour shortage. There are 1,000 unfilled construction jobs in P.E.I. right now.
The P.E.I. tourism sector, which has worked so hard to build a shoulder season so that you’re not just making money as a tourist business in July and August but building your business from April right through to November — and that shoulder season has always been affected by a drop in the number of student workers as they head back to school — but now it’s being absolutely negatively impacted by a lack of workers to replace that labour in the shoulder season. This has been a hard-fought win on the part of the Island to expand the length of the tourist season.
Small businesses post-COVID are not able to hire the staff to meet market demands today on the Island. The labour shortages have never been bigger. We have moved in Atlantic Canada — and this is true for Nova Scotia and the tour that I did of different businesses across Nova Scotia, labour shortages were crucial, especially in rural communities. You couldn’t get people to move to those communities in many cases, and the businesses are really struggling. We’re no longer in a world of job shortages. We’re in a world of pervasive and growing labour shortages. But our federal-provincial labour market agreements are based on a world of job shortages; they are based on the assumption and the paradigm of job shortages. From my perspective, that revisiting that Senator Bellemare and many of us have spoken about is really important.
I want to give you a sense of the risks facing businesses nationally for sure and in Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island absolutely. In my home province, one anchor employer in a rural area — a profitable, very well-respected business — 30% of their workforce is over 55 years of age. They do not have replacement workers coming along. We have to fix this issue of labour shortages in this country. To me, the challenge that I have is that the current situation on P.E.I. I think is indicative of some of the challenges that we have in this country, on the basis that we’re really supporting a job shortage market, not a labour shortage market. We’re incentivizing people in the second zone to stay home and work less. That’s the net result of that.
I really respect the concerns that have been raised by my honourable colleagues. I absolutely think we need to address them vigorously, but I like the fact that Senator Black has proposed a subamendment that allows us to look at the issue because in agricultural and rural communities it is especially challenging. The larger question of how we have to revisit our programs supporting those who are unemployed is crucial.
I will finish off by saying I hope we do vote in support of this subamendment and give the Agriculture and Forestry Committee the flexibility and time they need, and having the committee look at this issue makes an awful lot of sense in my mind. There is a profound challenge facing small businesses. They need the help to fill jobs and they don’t need people being incentivized to stay home.
The success of business is built — as we all know — on the quality and reliability of the workforce, but Bill S-236 is trying to get at this challenge of labour shortages on the Island. We heard it in committee when we did our study last May, and it is worse in rural communities and much harder for some of these businesses to get people to move into the communities and make sure they have the ability to create the value that they could deliver to their customers.
Colleagues, I hope you look at that part of the question seriously because it is a negative impact for those who have struggled to get through COVID and are trying to rebuild on the other side of it. Thank you very much, colleagues.
Would the senator take a question?
Yes.
I used to work at the Economic Council of Canada, in the late 1980s and early 1990s. We once did a major study, and I’m wondering whether you are aware of the results.
The study clearly showed that, because of the significant shortage of jobs and the way the EI program worked, in many regions, in both Quebec and the Maritimes, companies, not workers, were integrating the notion of job sharing into their human resource management practices. It wasn’t so much individuals, but rather businesses, that were really integrating job sharing into their own practices.
In other words, one aspect that needs to change is business practices, in order to provide greater job stability and improve workforce retention.
Were you aware of that study?
Of course, you were involved in something that innovative that long ago. Thank you for the question, Senator Bellemare. It goes to the core of what Senator Pate has been proposing. Let’s look at other ways of addressing the ability to provide everyone with more opportunities, be that through a guaranteed livable income pilot program, job sharing. There are many ways we can look at this issue, but the reality is we have to find a way to keep our businesses thriving in our communities, and that’s a really innovative idea that in this situation is not supported by having the second zone that is incentivizing people to stay home and claim EI or get only a full‑time job. Thank you.
Senator, would you take another question?
Absolutely.
Senator Deacon, I’m from a rural area with very harsh winters. I would say that anything between 30% and 35% of our businesses are seasonal businesses — and maybe Senator Mockler can corroborate this — therefore, these seasonal businesses need seasonal employees. I would like for you to tell this chamber what it is that you understand to qualify four times in your short speech that seasonal workers, by getting EI benefits, are being incentivized to stay home. In my long years of being a parliamentarian and talking to the people from my rural area, I have never met anyone who enjoys staying home and having to survive on Employment Insurance, or EI, benefits. Could you please qualify how you see this bill creating an incentive for people to stay home?
Thank you very much, Senator Ringuette. If you have to work 100 fewer hours to qualify for EI, and someone across the street has to work 100 more hours, one has a strong incentive to make sure they work the required number of hours. That’s what I am referencing. If we have a situation where you have folks who are around places where there are lots of jobs, and lots of jobs that are unfilled, we should be making sure that changing the system in some way, shape or form ensures that they have a reason to keep on looking for the next position versus perhaps going on earlier in the season.
Would the senator take a question?
Absolutely.
Senator Deacon, I very much appreciate the issue that you spoke about, in terms of not having enough people to fill jobs in this country. But I think it’s a stretch, because you do not have one shred of evidence to suggest that the workers in this particular zone that we are speaking about are incentivized to stay home. There is lots of data, and certainly the system exists, that if a worker fails to take a job that’s available, they will be cut off from EI.
I understand there are not enough people to fill jobs that exist in certain regions of the country, but we also have to appreciate that we have regional economies in certain sectors of this country. It’s not just in P.E.I. — it’s throughout many parts of the country — and the EI system has had to adjust to deal with this reality. In certain parts of Quebec, there is a regional economy. They have an EI zone that takes in that particular region and recognizes a regional economy.
I want to be honest because I don’t think this is what you intended to say. Workers, for the most part, struggle with life, and it’s not fair to suggest that somehow they’re lazy or they don’t want to go to work. I know many of them. I have represented them my whole life. I understand that we need to make sure workers have the skills and the ability to take jobs, when jobs are available, so they can continue to work, but I don’t think it’s fair to suggest that this particular region, in the province of P.E.I., is being incentivized to stay home. Senator Deacon, maybe you can clarify this through some data or statistics to help me feel more comfortable with regard to your statement.
Thank you, Senator Yussuff. That is the primary reason I recommend that it be studied by the Agriculture Committee. I am disappointed that I am no longer a member of the Agriculture Committee. I would like to be engaged on this topic because it’s crucial. When there are two zones, and there are jobs available in one zone but not in the zone you are in — in a place as small as Prince Edward Island — we’re not creating the circumstances, in my mind, where we are managing a system to ensure that all jobs are filled in order to make sure the economy is as strong as it can be.
Right now, there is a massive challenge of labour shortages that is getting worse because there is not enough housing, not enough construction workers and not enough workers to keep these businesses going. I am really hoping that the questions that you and Senator Ringuette have asked are studied and looked at by the Agriculture Committee, because I think it is important.
Senator Downe, are you rising to ask a question?
Yes, I am.
Senator Deacon’s time has expired.
Senator Deacon, are you asking for five more minutes to answer more questions?
If it is the will of the chamber.
Is leave granted, honourable senators?
Thank you. Let me join the pile on Senator Deacon because of his earlier comments. I know he’s well aware of Prince Edward Island, because he lived there for many years, but he may not be totally up to date. We have the lowest wages in Canada, and the highest inflation in Canada. Those two coming together are an incentive for people not to seek employment — when their incomes are so low because of the wages being the lowest in Canada. We have to be very conscious of what’s going on in the overall economic picture.
Senator Deacon, like you, I support the subamendment. I think it expands the range of options we can hear and gives time for more reflection. I was not aware of the Parliamentary Budget Officer’s report until Senator Ringuette raised it — and I thank her for raising it, because it’s important. The Parliamentary Budget Officer, as we know, does very good work. Senator Deacon, what other witnesses would you suggest, in addition to the Parliamentary Budget Officer, if you were selecting them for this review?
I would recommend speaking to chambers of commerce, construction associations, tourism associations and restaurant associations to understand what’s happening on the front lines of businesses across the Island — to make sure we’re understanding what the effects are, right now, of labour shortages on the Island. And we can get to the core of whether this is, in any way, related to it — perhaps it is not, and maybe the issues don’t touch on this. I believe there is something to be considered here. Certainly, our witnesses in the Agriculture Committee, when we heard their testimony back in May, said that labour shortage was a big part of their motivation for wanting to see this change. I encourage the committee to consider those sorts of witnesses.
As Senator Ringuette alluded to earlier, we have a very seasonal economy. A lot of our prosperity comes from that seasonal economy, but no one harvests potatoes in February, no one fishes lobsters in March and no one I know wants to visit me in April — because the weather is always nicer somewhere else. We have industries that are highly dependent on 14 to 16 weeks to contribute to the GDP of P.E.I.’s economy which, as you indicated in your remarks, has had tremendous growth in the last decade — not only in population but in prosperity.
Part of that is because we have EI, which is Employment Insurance. It’s an offset for people when they can’t work on farms, fisheries or tourism in the winter. I think — in addition to your suggestions of witnesses who should appear — I would add, to give balance, that we need to hear from some of the labour unions, the workers and the seasonal workers who are marginalized in their voices, in civil society, when it comes to employment, wages and so on.
Thank you. Absolutely, Senator Downe. I don’t think what we’re debating is whether EI should be available on the Island or not. We’re really debating whether the effect of having more hours to qualify is a problem for the Island or not. What you have suggested is important for your seatmate to consider right now, along with the steering committee of Agriculture, as they select witnesses. Those are very important points raised.
