Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Social Affairs,
Science and Technology
Issue 1 - Evidence
OTTAWA, Thursday, October 9, 1997
The Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology met this day at 10:00 a.m. to organize the activities of the committee.
[English]
Ms Jill Ann Joseph, Clerk of the Committee: Honourable senators, as your clerk, it is my duty to preside over the election of a chairman of the committee.
[Translation]
I am ready to entertain motions to that effect.
[English]
Senator Bonnell: I move that Senator Lowell Murray be chairman.
Ms Joseph: We have a motion, honourable senators, that Senator Murray serve as your chairman. Is it agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Ms Joseph: Carried.
In accordance with rule 88, the Honourable Senator Murray is elected chairman, and I invite him to take the Chair.
Senator Lowell Murray (Chairman) in the Chair.
The Chairman: Honourable colleagues, I thank you very much for your confidence. I have had the experience of presiding over various standing committees of the Senate in the past and I am very honoured to be chosen to chair this important committee.
[Translation]
Our next order of business is the election of a deputy chair. Are we ready to move on this point?
[English]
Senator Bonnell: I move that Senator Peter Bosa be deputy chairman of this committee.
The Chairman: You have heard the motion, honourable senators. Is it agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried. Senator Bosa is elected deputy chairman.
[Translation]
I declare Senator Bosa duly elected deputy chair of the committee.
Senator Bosa: Thank you for your show of confidence.
The Chairman: We have known you for over 30 years. Senator Bosa and I go back a long way.
[English]
I am sure we will be able to get along quite well together, and I congratulate Senator Bosa and the committee on this decision.
The Chair will receive a motion as follows:
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be composed of the Chair, the Deputy Chair and one other member of the committee to be designated after the usual consultation;
That the subcommittee be empowered to make decisions on behalf of the committee with respect to its agenda, to invite witnesses and schedule hearings; and
That the subcommittee report its decisions to the committee.
Senator Maheu?
Senator Maheu: I so move.
The Chairman: I do not need a seconder. You have heard the motion. Are you ready for the question? Senator Bonnell?
Senator Lavoie-Roux: What is being proposed?
[Translation]
The Chairman: That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be composed of the chair, the deputy chair and one other member of the committee to be designated after the usual consultation.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: I take it that member has yet to be designated.
The Chairman: No. However, consultation with the government party will ensure a government majority on the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure.
[English]
Senator Bosa: Mr. Chairman, do you need the name of the person now?
The Chairman: Not at all. This is to be done in consultation with the government.
Senator Bonnell: Mr. Chairman, you said that the steering committee had power to do this, that and the other thing, but as far as I am concerned, the steering committee must report on the decisions they have made and then seek approval of the full committee. The steering committee as such has no power without receiving the approval of the full committee. In other words, you must bring a report in after you have a steering committee meeting. You move it, we discuss it, and the full committee agrees or disagrees with it.
The Chairman: I think it is fair and accurate to say that everything that the steering committee does or proposes to do is subject to the approval of the full committee.
Senator Bonnell: That is exactly what I was saying.
The Chairman: In respect of any particular piece of legislation, the steering committee would move to invite witnesses and so forth, in order to get us started. The committee has the power to add to or subtract from the list of witnesses.
[Translation]
Is it the pleasure of the committee to adopt the said motion?
[English]
The Chairman: Is it agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
I will entertain a motion that the committee will print 500 copies of the proceedings and that the chairman will adjust this number to meet the demand.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: Why 500 copies, Mr. Chairman?
The Chairman: We had 480 last year. Approximately 225 copies are given to the library and to the Canada Communications Group, the Queen's Printer. There are also 107 Senate subscriptions. That brings us to 332 copies.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: Why does the library and CCG need 225 copies each?
The Chairman: They are distributed to libraries across the country.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: Yes, but only if it is requested by the libraries.
The Chairman: I presume there is a standing request or standing arrangement with other libraries.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: That seems to be an awful lot of copies to me. I would like to find out how many of those 500 copies are being read.
Senator Bosa: Mr. Chairman, perhaps Senator Lavoie-Roux should take a look at the distribution of the copies in the recent past. That might convince her that we are not really extravagant when we ask for 500 copies.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: That is more than the Fisheries Committee and the Energy, the Environment and Natural Resources Committee. Never mind. I will not delay the matter, but we keep printing paper and throwing it out. If we are doing that, imagine what other people do -- that is, those who are not as interested in it as we are. It seems to be the custom to spend as much as we can.
Senator Bonnell: I do not have any objection to 500 copies but I do object to the fact that the chairman can order more copies as he sees fit. I think the committee should order more copies as it sees fit. In other words, if the chairman sees the demand for another 500 copies, then he should bring that request to the committee so that the committee can decide. The chairman might try to build himself a great mountain across the world and send copies all over Europe, Asia and Africa because he happens to be the chairman and his name is there in print. If the committee ordered the copies that is fine, but I do not think the chair should do so on his own.
The Chairman: Senator Bonnell, you are free to amend the motion to remove all the words after "proceedings."
Senator Bosa: Please repeat the motion.
The Chairman: "That the committee print 500 copies of its proceedings and that the Chair be authorized to adjust this number to meet demand."
Senator Bonnell: I would replace the word "Chair" with the word "committee."
Senator Lavoie-Roux: Why should the Chair not be able to do it? We have a responsible chairman.
Senator Bonnell: Every Chair is responsible. However, some Chairs are looking for bigger things. Our present Chair has been to the top, and he is now on his way back down, so he is not looking to make himself an international star.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: I agree.
Senator Bonnell: We can trust this Chair, but perhaps he will find something else to do. We would then have another Chair. That motion will carry to the next Chair, who might want to print many copies simply to send them to all the school kids in his home area or something.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: If we get another Chair, we could review what we have done today.
The Chairman: Senator Bonnell, you have suggested that an amendment be made to this motion so that it reads "that the committee be authorized." With great respect, I do not believe it is necessary for the committee to authorize the committee. To achieve your objective, your amendment should read that all the words after "proceedings" be struck from the motion so we simply authorize the printing of 500 copies, period. If at some point there is an increased demand, the officials will advise us and the committee will be required to authorize the printing of additional copies. Is that satisfactory, senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Is there a motion to that effect?
Senator Bonnell: I so move, as amended.
The Chairman: As amended, that the committee print 500 copies of its proceedings. You have heard the motion. Are you ready for the question? All those in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: All those against? The motion is carried.
The chair will entertain a motion as follows:
That, pursuant to Rule 89, the Chair be authorized to hold meetings, to receive and authorize the printing of the evidence when a quorum is not present, provided that a representative of each party is present.
Experienced members of committees understand that no decisions can be taken by the committee without a quorum. However, there are times when we have invited witnesses to appear, sometimes from some distance and considerable inconvenience, and it is important to receive their testimony with or without a quorum. This motion would enable us to do that.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: Make sure there is one senator from each side.
The Chairman: Yes. This is a standard procedure.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: I so move. I have no problem with this one.
Senator Bosa: I should like to make an observation. The motion indicates the chair, but should not the Chair be in consultation with the deputy chair and the other person on the steering committee? Otherwise, it gives the chairman absolute discretion as to when a meeting is called or not called.
The Chairman: Meetings can only be called on 24 hours' notice. They are called in consultation with the steering committee. The scenario that I have placed before you is one in which a meeting is duly called, and, for whatever reason, only two senators show up, one from either side. We have a number of witnesses sitting at the witness table.
Senator Bosa: I understand the rationale behind it, and it has happened on previous occasions. I think it is a good motion. However, it says that the chair be authorized to hold meetings. Does that mean to call meetings?
The Chairman: This is to hold meetings, not to call them.
Senator Bosa: Fine.
The Chairman: The scenario I am suggesting is one in which it would not be possible to consult the steering committee. There are only two senators present, one from each side. The chair does not know where other senators are. We do not want to inconvenience witnesses, so we take their evidence and record it. We would make no decisions, of course. Are you ready for the question?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: The motion is carried.
The chair will entertain a motion as follows:
That, pursuant to rule 104, the Chair be authorized to report expenses incurred by the committee during the last session.
This is also a standard motion.
Senator Bonnell: I so move.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: I think all committees should present a report on expenses incurred every three or four months, as you prefer.We are speaking about a considerable amount of money, and we do not know where the money goes. I think we should be a little more accountable.
Senator Bonnell: Internal Economy can look after that.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: Do you have an objection to that?
The Chairman: I have no objection to that, no. The clerk advises that she can make it a practice, if it is a wish of the committee, to send free balance reports on a quarterly basis to all members of the committee.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: That would be fine.
The Chairman: Is that agreed? Senator Bonnell has moved the motion that I be authorized to report the expenses incurred by the committee during the last session. Is it your pleasure to adopt the said motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: The motion is carried.
Next, the chair will entertain a motion as follows:
That the committee ask the Library of Parliament to assign research officers to the committee;
That the Chair be authorized to seek authority from the Senate to engage the services of such counsel and technical, clerical and other personnel as may be necessary for the purpose of the committee's examination and consideration of such bills, subject-matters of bills and estimates as are referred to it.
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be authorized to retain the services of such experts as may be required by the work of the committee; and
That the Chair, on behalf of the committee, direct the research staff in the preparation of studies, analyses, summaries and draft reports.
Senator Bosa: I so move.
The Chairman: Is it your pleasure to adopt the said motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: The motion is carried.
The Chair will entertain a motion to commit funds and certify accounts.
[Translation]
That, pursuant to section 32 of the Financial Administration Act, authority to commit funds be conferred on the chair or in the chair's absence, the deputy chair; and
That, pursuant to section 34 of the Financial Administration Act, and Guideline 3:05 of Appendix II of the Rules of the Senate, authority for certifying accounts payable by the committee be conferred on the chair, the deputy chair, and the clerk of the committee.
Is it the pleasure of the committee to adopt the said motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
[English]
The Chair will entertain a motion as follows:
That the committee empower the Chair to designate, as required, one or more members of the committee and/or such staff as may be necessary to travel on assignment on behalf of the committee.
I have inquired about this matter. I am told it is also a standard motion. The authority has not been used often, if at all, by this committee. It envisages the possibility of a member or members, on behalf of the committee, attending a conference or a meeting somewhere outside of the National Capital Region, or, I suppose, even in the National Capital Region, a meeting which is concerned with the matters which generally are within the mandate of this committee.
Senator Bonnell: I think it is a good idea to have that there, Mr. Chairman, but I would like to have it so that the senator we send reports to the committee on what took place. Rather than just sending the individual on the trip and getting no feedback, they should have to report to the committee.
Senator Cohen: I agree.
The Chairman: Understood?
Hon. Senators: Understood.
Senator Bosa: Just by way of information, this is not something new.
The Chairman: So I am informed.
Senator Bosa: It has always been there.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: What does that mean? For instance, there is an international conference on health in Australia in November. This committee is concerned with health. Would this motion authorize or permit someone to ask you, Mr. Chairman, that the committee pay for this trip? I give that as an example, but there are conferences of all kinds.
The Chairman: One could ask, senator, but there would have to be an item in our budget to cover this particular matter, and I doubt very much that it will be sufficient to send senators back and forth to Australia. We are talking apparently in the past of a $500 item.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: That is fine.
Senator Bonnell: I think it really means if we are studying health reform or something in our committee and there is a conference in Australia, Bucharest or some place else and we want to know what is taking place there, we can send someone there to bring back a report. However, I do not think we can send someone down to Australia to study health reform if we are not studying health reform.
The Chairman: Is it the pleasure of the committee to adopt the said motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: The Chair will entertain a motion:
That, pursuant to the Senate guidelines for witnesses' expenses, the committee may reimburse reasonable travel and living expenses for no more than two witnesses from any one organization and payment will take place upon application.
Senator Bosa: Should it not be after they present their bills rather than on application? What if they do not show up afterwards?
The Chairman: "Reimburse" is the operative verb here. "Reimburse" means that they would have to have receipts.
Senator Bosa: While "reimburse" may be the operative word, it does say "upon application." If they apply to appear before the committee, that would take place before the committee meets.
The Chairman: On application for reimbursement.
Senator Bonnell: They have to spend the money first. They cannot be reimbursed for money they did not spend.
Senator Bosa: Agreed.
The Chairman: Are you moving that motion, senator?
Senator Bosa: So moved.
The Chairman: Is it agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
The Chair will entertain a motion.
[Translation]
That the Chair be authorized to seek permission from the Senate to permit coverage by electronic media of its public proceedings with the least possible disruption of its hearings; and
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be empowered to allow such coverage at its discretion.
[English]
Electronic coverage, media coverage.
Senator Bonnell: You have to get permission from the Senate first.
The Chairman: It is the usual motion authorizing the Chair to seek permission.
[Translation]
Senator Lavoie-Roux: Before a decision is made to allow coverage of the public proceedings, will the committee be consulted?
The Chairman: This motion would authorize the chair to seek permission from the Senate to --
[English]
Senator Lavoie-Roux: I think it should come to the committee first. I do not think it will be Senator Murray's problem, but you could get a chairman who wants to be televised all the time.
The Chairman: I am definitely not trying to raise my profile, senator. However, I assure you that I would consult with the committee on a matter of that importance. The initiative would probably come from some member of the committee rather than the chair.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: Not only the committee.
[Translation]
Not just the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure, but the committee as a whole as well?
[English]
Now you refer it to the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure. It should be referred to the whole committee. It could also be referred to the Rules and Procedure Committee, I do not mind.
The Chairman: I understand that the Senate itself intends to give permission to CPAC to cover committees.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: To finance CPAC, that is great.
The Chairman: It is still up to individual committees, is it not, to take the initiative of asking Senate permission.
The clerk informs me that what is envisaged is as follows: There will be a blanket permission for all of the committees to televise all of their hearings but it will be up to individual committees to decide what particular hearings will be televised. Do you want to authorize the chairman to seek permission from the Senate?
Senator Lavoie-Roux: After it has been discussed here.
The Chairman: You do not wish to have the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure empowered to allow such coverage at its discretion. How do the rest of you feel?
Senator Forest: I am not too concerned about it being the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: I am only a member of the committee.
[Translation]
If the proceedings are to be broadcast on television, I would like to know in advance.
[English]
I do not mind the subcommittee making the final arrangements. However, I think all members of the committee should be consulted.
The Chairman: I have explained the situation. I will put the motion.
Senator Bosa: Mr. Chairman, it is important to make the observation here that the Internal Economy Committee, as part of the strategy to give the Senate a higher profile, authorized the committees to invite CPAC to cover the meetings. This has been proven to be very beneficial.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: We need it. It is terrible what I have been hearing in the last ten days.
Senator Bosa: Perhaps Senator Lavoie-Roux is not aware that during the summer CPAC filmed a series of interviews with chairs and deputy chairs about their particular committees and what transpires in them. Those films have been shown over and over again. I was in one of them, and, believe me, I was astounded to discover that wherever I went people would say, "I saw you on TV. You were talking about the Social Affairs Committee." They did not remember the particulars, but they remembered viewing it.
Senator Cohen: In reference to what Senator Lavoie-Roux was just saying, 35 hours a month is not that many hours given all the committees that we have. There may just be a certain subject in which Canadians will want to really get involved, and we could us go for television coverage. However, I am confident that the chair and the steering committee will understand what would appeal to the Canadian public and be good for the Senate's image.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: I have no objection that we use CPAC though I very seldom hear anything in French on CPAC. That is one thing. If you think hard, can you remember seeing very much in French?
The Chairman: Well, there are two channels. It is in both languages. Here it is, anyway.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: Anyhow, that is beside the point.
I am in agreement that we committee meetings televised, but before the committee makes a decision that, for example, a certain subject will televised, I think that the members of the committee should be asked or told about it. That is all I am asking for. I am not against having meetings televised. In fact, it will probably help our image because right now it is in the cellar.
Senator Bosa: I will move the motion.
The Chairman: I quite understand the desire of Senator Lavoie-Roux that the committee as a whole be advised and consulted. We will try to do that for sure. You will see that I do this, will you, Madam Clerk?
Ms Joseph: Yes.
The Chairman: Senator Bosa is moving:
That the Chair be authorized to seek permission from the Senate to permit coverage by electronic media of its public proceedings with the least possible disruption of its hearings; and
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be empowered to allow such coverage at its discretion.
You have heard the caveat that Senator Lavoie-Roux and I have made. Is it your pleasure to adopt the said motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
Senator Bosa: Mr. Chairman, why would we change the expression of "steering committee" to "subcommittee"?
The Chairman: It is "Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedures." That is what it has always been formally called in my time here.
Senator Bosa: We always refer to it as the steering committee.
The Chairman: That is the informal title.
Inquiries were made about the likely work load of this committee during this session and, in particular, over the next few months between now and Christmas. My information is that so far as government legislation is concerned, we can expect little, if any, government legislation before Christmas and perhaps even after that. There are a number of important bills that do have an impact on social policy or an important social policy component, but for the most part those bills, such as the changes to the Canada Pension Plan, are being sponsored in Parliament by ministers of finance or other departments and would probably be referred to the Banking Committee or the National Finance Committee or, in some cases, the Standing Senate Committee on Energy, the Environment and Natural Resources. We do not expect to be overworked so far as government legislation is concerned.
I simply want to remind you of what you already know, namely, that Senate committees take on policy studies from time to time. While I have nothing in mind for this committee at this moment, I am inviting you to reflect on this possibility in the coming days and weeks. If you have something to propose, I would be glad to convene the committee informally in camera to exchange ideas. If there is general consensus, then we could meet formally and make a decision, one way or the other, on an area of policy study that is of interest to you.
Senator Bosa: Two things that come to mind immediately. First, quite a number of the members of the committee will be involved in the study that was initiated by Senator Bonnell on education. For reasons beyond the control of Senator Bonnell -- that is, his date of birth -- he wishes that the study be completed before he must retire.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: When is your birthday?
Senator Bonnell: It is in January.
Senator Bosa: He wishes that study to be reported to the Senate by December.
The Chairman: This will be a special committee. It will no longer be a subcommittee of this committee.
Senator Bosa: It will most likely be made up of members of this committee, as it was before. A number of members of this committee have the necessary background because they participated initially when it was a subcommittee of the Social Affairs Committee.
There is another matter that is taking place now. The Deputy Leader of the Government has given notice in the Senate that a special joint committee will look into the issues of custody and access of divorced couples. A number of the committee members are quite familiar with this subject because they studied Bill C-41. Consequently, for continuity, they will want to participate in that committee.
I am telling you this because, if you have any studies that you wish to propose that the committee undertake, I would ask you to keep this in mind.
The Chairman: Those are very important considerations, Senator Bosa. Thank you for that information. If senators are considering proposing a policy study, they should reflect on these matters and on the timing.
Honourable senators, we need to set up a time slot for our regular meetings.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: I hope you do not set it at 9:30 in the morning.
The Chairman: The possibilities are Tuesday morning at 9:30 or 10:00. There is also Wednesday when the Senate rises. What is your wish? We could have both, of course.
Senator Bosa: The 10:00 or 9:30 or 9:15 slot on Tuesday morning has proven to be very successful. Attendance has been quite good. I would suggest that we continue with that time slot, but it may cause some inconveniences.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: I would prefer 10:00 a.m.
Senator Cools: That would be a far better time.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: It is not because I do not want to fly to Ottawa on Monday night, but I have obligations in Montreal on many volunteer boards of administration and in the health and social fields.
Senator Bosa: Do you fly in?
Senator Lavoie-Roux: No, I travel by bus to save the taxpayer's money.
Senator Cools: I do better than that; I drive.
Senator Maheu: I drive also.
The Chairman: We are one of a number of standing committees, and you will understand that these arrangements are subject to some negotiation with the whips. We are suggesting 10:00 a.m. Tuesday and/or, when we are pressed, Wednesday afternoon.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: In particular, when there is nothing else to do, at least you feel you are doing something.
The Chairman: We could put in a good hour and one-half on Tuesday morning, provided we start at 10:00 a.m. The Conservatives have a caucus at 11:30 a.m. on Tuesdays.
Senator Bosa: Mr. Chairman, we went through this quite a number of times -- not only because of Senator Lavoie-Roux but also because of people who come from the Atlantic provinces. This room is used for another meeting at eleven o'clock. Consequently, if we do not start at 9:30 we will not be able to get an hour and one-half to deal with the matters at hand because at eleven o'clock we have to vacate this room.
I should also like to point out that it is very impractical to have our meetings when the Senate rises on Wednesday afternoon because sometimes there are emergencies. Witnesses have been called. Instead of adjourning at three o'clock, because of the urgent matter or something at hand, they postpone it. It goes until five o'clock, and then you have witnesses pacing up and down, which is not fair. I think the most reliable time that we could possibly have is on Tuesday morning at 9:30. If Senator Lavoie-Roux arrives 15 minutes late, so be it.
The Chairman: I do not know what the eleven o'clock meeting is. It is another committee, is it?
Senator Bosa: Yes.
The Chairman: They are in this room. You will be perhaps pleased or displeased to know I am trying to arrange to have this committee meet in Room 705 in the Victoria Building. Is that a bad room?
Senator Lavoie-Roux: It is not a matter of the room. Once I arrive, I must rush to the Victoria Building.
The Chairman: However, if we were in that room, we could meet at ten o'clock.
Senator Bosa: It is a question of interpretation. There are other factors. Speak to the whips and see what happens.
Senator Cools: I agree.
The Chairman: With what do you agree?
Senator Cools: I agree that ten o'clock is a better time all around, and especially so for senators who must travel.
The Chairman: We will do our very best. As I say, we are not at this moment facing a heavy workload in the period between now and Christmas. Things may change or improve in terms of other demands on committee rooms and on members of the committee.
Is there any further business to come before the committee, honourable senators? If not, the committee stands adjourned to the call of the Chair.
The committee adjourned.