Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Social Affairs, Science and Technology
Issue 24 - Evidence
OTTAWA, Thursday, June 30, 2005
The Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology, to which was referred Bill C-23, to establish the Department of Human Resources and Skills Development and to amend and repeal certain related acts; and Bill C-22, to establish the Department of Social Development and to amend and repeal certain related acts, met this day at 10:45 a.m. to give consideration to the bills.
Senator Michael Kirby (Chairman) in the Chair.
[English]
The Chairman: Honourable senators, today we are dealing with Bill C-23 and Bill C-22, the two bills that relate to the effective splitting of what was the old HRDC.
Our first bill today is Bill C-23, to establish the new Department of Human Resources and Skills Development, and, as lawyers like to say, to amend and repeal certain related acts.
As our first panel, we have the minister, the Honourable Minister Stronach, Ms. René de Cotret and Ms. Glover. Thank you for appearing before us today. I believe this is your first chance to appear before a Senate committee. We are delighted to do your baptism by fire.
I know you have an opening statement. If you can begin with the opening statement, we will turn to questions from my colleagues, beginning with Senator Carstairs, followed by Senator Keon.
The Honourable Belinda Stronach, Minister of Human Resources and Skills Development: Honourable senators, I wish to thank everyone for inviting me here today as you start your consideration of Bill C-23, to establish the Department of Human Resources and Skills Development.
Before I begin, I would introduce Ms. Glover and Ms. René de Cotret.
I welcome your review of this important legislation as we strive to help Canadians gain the skills to fully participate in today's labour market. The Prime Minister's goal, throughout this bill's legislative journey, has been to strengthen Canada's social foundations and build a 21st century economy.
The department's roots run deep throughout Canada and, through its programs and services, touch the lives of millions of Canadians each year. In effect, HRSDC represents the human face of the Government of Canada in many communities across this country.
The bill you are considering today, establishes the new Department of Human Resources and Skills Development, defines the mandate of the minister, as well as that of the Minister of Labour, and continues the Canada Employment Insurance Commission. The bill also reflects the continued relationship that HRSDC has with its companion department, Social Development Canada.
Allow me to take a few moments to provide an overview of some of the highlights of Bill C-23, which gives the Department of Human Resources and Skills Development statutory existence.
In regard to the scope of the mandate, Part 1 of the legislation sets out my powers, duties and functions as well as the scope of my mandate as the Minister of Human Resources and Skills Development. These responsibilities extend to all matters relating to human resources and skills development in Canada over which Parliament has jurisdiction and which have not been assigned to another minister. The act further provides that I shall exercise these powers with a view to improving the standard of living and quality of life of all Canadians by promoting a highly skilled and mobile workforce and an efficient and inclusive labour market. This is the vision and mission of this new department — a department I am proud to be responsible for. It is our day-to-day goal to live up to this mandate.
In addition to setting out the mandate, the bill gives me the express authority to establish and implement programs designed to support the development of human resources in Canada and the skills of Canadians.
The main business lines that HRSDC has in place to deliver on its mandate are employment insurance, employment programs, workplace skills and learning, including the Canada Student Loans Program and the Canada Education Savings Grant. All of this helps us achieve HRSDC's vision, where individuals are able to learn and contribute to Canada's success by fully participating in a well-functioning and effective labour market.
Officials of the department also administer the labour and homelessness programs for which my colleague the Honourable Joe Fontana, the Minister of Labour, is responsible. The mandate of the Minister of Labour is to promote fair, safe, healthy, stable, cooperative and productive workplaces.
Issues related to the operation of the labour program are governed by other statutes, including the Canada Labour Code. Altogether, HRSDC is responsible for over $20 billion in benefits and support for Canadians. About $17 billion of that is comprised of direct benefits to Canadians through employment insurance, the Canada student loans, and other statutory transfer payments. These programs and services are delivered by phone, over the Internet, and through an in-person network of 320 offices from coast to coast.
The bill recognizes that since the inception of the two departments, HRSDC and Social Development Canada have had an integrated service delivery network and provide services to and receive services from each other. HRSDC and Social Development Canada have worked diligently to provide Canadians with a seamless, uninterrupted service across the country.
Another important element in Part 1 relates to jurisdiction. As stated earlier, the powers, duties and functions of the minister extend to all matters on human resources and skills development in Canada over which Parliament has jurisdiction. However, as was the case for the old Department of Human Resources Development, this act will authorize the minister to cooperate with provincial authorities with a view to coordinating efforts for human resources and skills development. This authority is very important to me and I intend to continue working in partnership with my provincial colleagues.
This partnership culture is the driving force behind our policies and programs, and will continue in the new Department of Human Resources and Skills Development.
Given the importance of the Employment Insurance Program to Canadians, and the role of the Canada Employment Insurance Commission, the bill stipulates that the commission will continue with all its powers, duties and functions. As I am sure honourable senators know, while this bill addresses the composition and operations of the commission, issues specific to the EI program are governed by the Employment Insurance Act.
I will now turn to the issue of privacy. All Canadians want to be assured that their personal information is protected and respected. Part 4 of this bill introduces a new privacy code that provides enhanced protection of personal information by establishing a single code governing its protection and disclosure. This single code will provide greater consistency in the administration of personal information, greater transparency to Canadians, comprehensive provisions for the use of data for research purposes, and an offence provision for knowingly disclosing personal information in contravention of the code.
Up to now, there have been five statutory and regulatory regimes governing the disclosure of personal information by employees of the department. Currently, there are disclosure provisions in the Employment Insurance Act, in the Canada Student Financial Assistance Regulations, in the old departmental statute now repeated in the Canada Education Savings Act, in the Canada Labour Code, as well as the provisions of the Privacy Act.
Consolidating the separate regimes into one code will provide a greater degree of transparency for Canadians and will make it easier for both departmental employees and the public when dealing with disclosure of personal information.
Another feature is a special section for the use and protection of personal information for research purposes, which takes into account the important role of evaluation and research in program administration. This treatment, along with the rigorous administrative practices now in place for handling personal information for research purposes, would provide a high degree of clarity around research practices.
In consulting with the Privacy Commissioner on the code, we were pleased to learn that she considers our proposed code a step forward and an improvement. She has publicly stated that the privacy provisions in Bill C-23 are consistent with the Privacy Act and in several respects constitute more exacting standards than those in the Privacy Act.
In conclusion, honourable senators, the new legislation provides a strong framework to ensure that the Government of Canada can continue to develop the most highly skilled workforce in the world. We are committed to helping Canadians, including the most disadvantaged, gain access to opportunities in this knowledge-based economy.
The Department of Human Resources and Skills Development, with its network across the country, plays a key role in helping Canada build a stronger foundation for the 21st century. This bill, if adopted by Parliament, will live up to this role.
I would be pleased to take any questions, and my officials are also available to answer questions.
Senator Stratton: I will get right to the point. There have been articles in the newspaper of late about your having to recuse yourself from cabinet meetings because of potential conflicts of interest because the Department of Human Resources regularly bestows significant sums of money on subsidiaries of Magna, for skills development particularly. As that is such a significant part of your department, how do you manage that? I am referring not only to cabinet meetings, but how will you manage that with the department?
Ms. Stronach: I appreciate the opportunity to be able to address that. First, I would point out that as of January 20, 2004, over a year and a half ago, I resigned from any duties at Magna, although, technically, I did not have to do that at the time; but I was very conscious of being in public life and there being any perceived conflicts. Therefore, I am also very sensitive to this.
Along with my lawyers, I have met with the Ethics Commissioner. We are in the process of full disclosure, fully complying with what the Ethics Commissioner is going to recommend and is recommending along the way. I am happy to do that and very willing to do that.
There is a stringent recusal process in place and we are complying with that. At the moment, if there are any areas where there could even be a potential for conflict — not even necessarily a conflict — we are very careful to consider that and ensure that I do not participate in that.
Senator Stratton: I understand the rules with respect to cabinet and blind trusts. We had that experience with the Prime Minister. That has been in the media on and off for quite some time. However, you are in a department that is fairly sensitive to human resources development and, while it is true to say that cabinet has stringent rules, what concerns us, and what should really concern you, is that, being within that department, you will be dealing with initiatives in that department that are really quite sensitive as far as the subsidiaries of Magna are concerned.
Ms. Stronach: That recusal process extends to cover department issues as well. It is not just as it relates to cabinet; it relates to all of the issues and all of the functions in which I am involved. There is a concurrent process that is set up for the department to ensure that I do not in any way touch those issues that could potentially be affected.
I am also held to the same standard as the Prime Minister is held to — the highest degree of scrutiny.
Senator Stratton: That is unfortunate.
The concern I have is that you will do all that, but the mere fact that questions are raised colours you; whether they are true or not it colours you. It has an impact on you, on your role, and on your department. One would have thought that the Prime Minister might have considered giving you another portfolio that was not so sensitive to issues with respect to Magna. Did you have discussions with the Prime Minister with respect to your portfolio, where it would be less sensitive to such issues?
Ms. Stronach: I am less worried about colour. I am worried that we do the right thing and that there is a stringent process set up. As I said, I am happy to comply fully with the Ethics Commissioner's advice. He has full access to all the information and is currently evaluating it with a view to making recommendations. We will have to wait and see what he brings forward. That process is underway.
Senator Stratton: I appreciate that. I just believe that the optics are not good. I am sure it is above board, but I believe that the optics of your having this assignment have a negative impact for all politicians.
Senator Carstairs: Welcome, Minister Stronach. Unlike my colleague to my right, I am delighted you are in this position because of the background you bring to the responsibility of skills development. I am particularly pleased with this legislation because the previous portfolio was extremely large. This will allow concentration on workplace, skills and learning issues, which have been somewhat neglected.
My question has to do with workers who come to this country with a great deal of skill, although without good skills in either of our official languages. Within the Department of Immigration, a great deal of money used to be spent on training for such workers. Unfortunately, under the previous administration that funding was significantly reduced and has never been reinstated.
What might your department do to enhance a skill that I believe is essential to a good worker, that is, the ability to work in one of Canada's official languages?
Ms. Stronach: I agree that that is important, along with a number of other skills, including literacy, on which the department has focused. We want to put in place a stronger process coordinated with the provinces and the territories in order to ensure that foreign credentials can be utilized here in Canada so that skilled immigrants can get good jobs, be productive members of society and build a better life for themselves. We must recognize the skills of these people and identify where we need to build on them in order to achieve greater levels of employment for them.
Ms. Barbara Glover, Director General, Corporate Planning and Accountability, Human Resources and Skills Development Canada: Citizenship and Immigration Canada has received an increase in its budget for official languages; they are spending it on the important area of ensuring that immigrants to Canada have a very good understanding of English or French.
Ms. Stronach: Service Canada falls under the responsibility of HRSDC. Service Canada is citizen-focused with the goal of providing more streamlined and more efficient service to Canadians.
We have taken over the “Coming to Canada” portal on the department's website; this will now give more information to individuals coming to Canada so that they can better evaluate the opportunities that are here and the skill level they will need to have when entering the country. In other words, they will be much more aware of what they are getting into.
Service Canada is an evolving process. We have about 320 websites now and hope to have 600 points of service across the country by the end of the year. A number of these prototype sites that will be in operation later this summer are dedicated to doing a good job on official languages, but others will deal with other languages in order to service the needs of those communities. We are testing and expanding the services to see how they work for those communities. We want to be sensitive to the needs of those communities and ensure that we can interact with them.
Senator Carstairs: My second question will not come as a surprise to your officials. Since January 2004 we have had the Compassionate Leave Program under the Employment Insurance Program. Although we anticipated that up to 250,000 Canadians might access this, I understand that it was accessed by fewer than 7,500 Canadians in its first year of operation.
I understand that you have begun a review of this situation, that a preliminary report has been received and that a final report will be received this fall. Will action be taken in order to broaden the definition of “eligibility” under the Compassionate Leave Program?
Ms. Stronach: As you said, early indications are that take-up of the program is not as high as we had anticipated. We are considering expanding the definition, perhaps even in advance of the final report, in order that more people can access the program.
Senator Keon: I was interested in your response to Senator Carstairs. In Toronto, there is a Chinese community of 500,000, which is bigger than many entire Canadian cities. In our Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology representatives of that community indicated that they are frustrated that they cannot function in their own language. The complexities of accommodating the Chinese language in your initiative would be enormous, considering that we are moving to an information-technology world that has difficulty coping in English and French, let alone Chinese.
Has any thought been given to this before stating that we will accommodate them? I do not know if that is possible.
Ms. Stronach: Yes, some thought has been given to that. We must first ensure that we do a good job in our two official languages. It will take over three years to roll out the full services of Service Canada.
Having said that, we are testing out a program in various communities where, for example, 80 per cent of the community speaks Chinese, and under that program we are providing some of the essential features of what we are trying to communicate in that language. At the end of the day, that will help the citizens to better understand what we are trying to achieve and to better access the programs.
We are trying to adopt more of a customer service approach through Service Canada. Basically, Service Canada takes a number of departments, takes the back office functions and streamlines certain activities to make things more efficient. It is like a one-stop shopping service to Canadians. Some day, because we will be working in collaboration with the provinces and with the territories, when you go to a Service Canada Office, you will be able to get your dog licence, your driver's licence or your passport there. That is the intent.
If there is a dominant language in a particular community, because it is customer service oriented, that is something we will take a look at. That will vary from community to community. The response so far has been well received. It will take some time and a staged approach to make this happen successfully.
Senator Keon: My main question to you is trite; I am sure it has been asked over and over any time there is any restructuring in the civil service. However, it is highly pertinent. We have two bills before us today: One dealing with your ministry and one dealing with Minister Dryden's. However, having spent virtually all of my life in Ottawa, with the exception of 10 years of my early life, I have many friends in the civil service. Every time that they restructure, they grow. Can you tell me just how this whole thing will occur? How much redeployment will there be of the human resources that you have that you are splitting up? How many new human resources will come on board? What kind of growth will you have financially and in personnel, and so on, as these two ministries take off in separate directions?
Ms. Stronach: That is a very good question. Let me deal with what the intent is. The intent is to bring greater focus on the needs and then to provide the framework to enable us to achieve that.
When you consider how the world is rapidly changing, you can see that we have important responsibilities, for example, to enable people to get a better quality job, to build the skills necessary to do that, to ensure that we look forward to the future and to ensure that individuals or businesses have labour forces available to them. Those are important responsibilities. When business or investment comes to this country, it is important that we have a labour pool present and ready to meet the challenges in this rapidly changing and competitive economy.
As we go forward, the focus will be much greater on training, specifically workplace skills training, and on working together with the provinces and working together with unions to ensure that what we are putting forward really makes a difference and really does work.
While EI focuses on temporary income assistance, there is also the EI, Part II, the active measures that are more of a short-term intervention, and the next stage, which takes a look at how we can invest in human capital. How can we build the human capital to enable people to meet the challenges of this 21st century economy? Canada will be able to compete and to keep its quality of life high, if we to ensure that we have citizens who have built up a level of education and skill that enables them to do those complex, value-added jobs that lead to higher paying jobs that, in turn, lead to a better quality of life. That is where the focus lies.
In terms of the allocation of resources, perhaps Ms. Glover could address that.
Ms. Glover: There are three reasons why I think the departments, collectively, should not get bigger as a result of the split. First, the departments collectively did not get any more money as a result of the split. We were expected to absorb the cost of splitting within our current “A” base. Without additional money, it is hard to get bigger.
The second reason is practical: The human resources, finance, administration, systems and social development kind of corporate services are all in one department so that HRSDC does not need to recreate a systems department, a finance department and a human resources department. That was intentional, precisely to address the issue you raised.
The minister spoke earlier about a network that would be integrated and seamless so there would not be the creation of new delivery networks. The delivery network stays as one integrated system, and that is the third reason.
Senator Keon: When you consider the contents of Bill C-22 and Bill C-23, you are looking at a tremendous number of new initiatives. Do you have the personnel in place for these new initiatives or will you have to bring new personnel in? Will you have to re-educate or redeploy them? How will you handle this?
Ms. Michèle René de Cotret, Senior Counsel, Human Resources and Skills Development Canada: Honourable senators, this bill does not create initiatives; it sets up the machinery for the department to do whatever it wants. The minister has a mandate that, as stated in the bill, is very wide. However, the bill does not envisage the creation of any new initiatives.
Senator Keon: The whole reason for the minister's existing is to create new initiatives. She just described her ideas to us and what she wants to do.
Ms. Stronach: I think it is creating new initiatives as we look to the future to be able to meet those challenges. That also means looking at the ones that we have and streamlining them. Some need reinventing; they do not work. Over the years, we have dropped some. For example, the power program for older workers was dropped a number of years ago. Based on the aging demographics of our population and based on the fact that many people want to work in later years, we need to ensure that they have the skills to be able to do that.
There is evolvement and continuous improvement, depending on the changing dynamics of the workplace. It is not necessarily adding on layer after layer; it involves asking: Can we do things more efficiently? Are some programs no longer effective? Do they need to be re-evaluated?
Let me return to Service Canada. At Service Canada, one of the mandates is to avoid duplication, to be streamlined and to do things more efficiently. That is part of the expenditure review process that we are looking at. We have said that we will meet our commitments to that expenditure review process by streamlining and by doing things more efficiently. There are no layoffs in year one. It is a question of reallocation of those resources as well.
Senator Keon: I have taken too much of your time. Thank you for your responses, all of you. I do hope that one of your major commitments will be an increase in productivity, an increase in efficiency, as well as some new initiatives.
Ms. Stronach: Absolutely, yes.
[Traduction]
Senator Gill: Welcome, Madam Minister. You have a great challenge ahead of you. I am sure that you have the experience and abilities to rise to the challenge.
My question pertains to the first nations. You are aware that for several years now, the lifestyle of the first nations in this country has changed considerably as a result of the fur boycott imposed by different European countries. Hunters and trappers are now almost a bygone breed.
There are still a few hunters and trappers but very few can make a living at this anymore. As a result, there is a whole pool of manpower in the north of the country, in northern remote areas of all the provinces, by and large.
Often, economic development projects are created in the north, and these are usually mining projects, hydroelectric power plants projects, among others. I raise this issue because very often, people from the south are sent to work in the north. These populations from the south have to be trained. They have to be given training in order to get used to what has to be done in the north. Our own population could be used and trained in the north; I am referring here to the first nations.
However, all too often, this does not occur. It could be done; we have a population in waiting, who are unemployed but have the potential to be very productive for employers. In fact, populations are imported from the south, and artificial cities are created in the north. Existing infrastructures in the south are replicated in the north, whereas aboriginal people already have a way of life. It is simply a matter of training aboriginal people to do the work in the north.
I have broached this subject several times already. Today, I am not expecting a specific answer from you, I simply am looking for a show of determination, willingness to reverse the trend. There is a prevailing culture in this country: people think that aboriginal persons have problems. They can become the solution. A problem can be turned into a solution.
I would like to know if there is a willingness, a determination to make sure that during the beginning stages of a northern development project, the population already residing there will be trained, because they are just as capable of doing the things those who are sent up from the south do. I do not want to exclude people from the south from the labour market, but I just want us to think about the first nations.
[Français]
Ms. Stronach: Thank you for your very important question. First, I do not agree with those, and, based on what you have just said, I know you do not share that view that Aboriginals pose a problem. The Aboriginal community is a great asset and even more so as we have an aging workforce. If we work together to ensure that we bring forward the right programs for education and workplace skills training, those programs should enable Aboriginal people to find better quality jobs in their communities.
I have spoken to the Minister of Industry and the Minister of Labour, but particularly the Minister of Industry, about how we can work together, because this has to be done in partnership. We need to take a look at both of our strategies. You are talking about the Aboriginal communities in the North. We need to look at the natural resources they have available to them and at the educational programs that we are developing and will be developing, and how we can marry the two in order to make the most of those natural resources. We need a real strategy for the natural resource sector that links the Aboriginal community and education to that, so that, for example, we do not just ship out raw lumber, but take that lumber, cut it into boards, and do manufacturing beyond that.
Whether it is Aboriginals from the native community or Canadians in urban centres, it is about education and being able to apply those skills to achieve higher quality or better paying jobs at the end of the day. The Minister of Industry and I are working very closely now, and will be over the coming months, to ensure that our two strategies do link so that at the end of the day we can ensure that Aboriginal people can stay in their communities and have access to education, not only for workplace skills and apprenticeship programs, but greater access to post-secondary education as well. A comprehensive approach needs to be taken.
Broadband access to the Internet makes a huge difference. You cannot compete in this economy without it. You are either in the game or out of the game. That also relates to literacy and access to education. We need to look at the right strategies, at the natural resources, and at the evolution of technology to be able to bring about that information and communicate it outwardly to ensure that our programs are responsive to people's needs, whether they be the basic foundation of literacy or enhanced skills to meet the needs of a particular community. That is something that I am very excited about and we are working in partnership to achieve that.
[Traduction]
Senator Gill: I am pleased to hear you talk about the industry, and also that you did not mention the Department of Indian Affairs, because generally speaking, for years now, when there has been an issue concerning aboriginal people, it has always been referred to the Department of Indian Affairs. You know the story. I believe that it is important for other departments to get involved, as you said, to integrate services, and to change the situation. There is no other solution. Therefore, I am pleased to hear you talk about collaboration with other departments.
[Français]
Senator Callbeck: My first question relates to maternity benefits for self-employed women. I was vice-chair of the Prime Minister's task force that travelled across Canada in 2003 to come up with recommendations on how the federal government can get more women to become entrepreneurs and how the federal government can be more supportive of women entrepreneurs. One concern that was continually raised was maternity benefits.
I know that your department has signed an agreement with Quebec so that the province will be providing maternity benefits, and women entrepreneurs will have access to those benefits. My understanding is that this will come into effect in January 2006.
Are you negotiating a similar deal with other provinces? Do you have any plans to extend maternity benefits to women entrepreneurs at the national level?
Ms. Stronach: I am glad you raised that. You have outlined very well what is taking place with Quebec. They are introducing that program to their citizens and we will look very closely at the effects of that program. We are not at the moment negotiating with other provinces. I have instructed the department to start a review to determine what it would entail to extend parental benefits to women entrepreneurs. That is a major factor for women entrepreneurs, and we have had a significant amount of interest expressed in this area.
Therefore, we are in the process of conducting a review, coming up with a potential program to be able to address it, and at the same time taking a look at what happens in Quebec and how we can learn from that as we potentially look at this across the country. It is an initiative in which I believe, but we must do the analysis on it, see how it plays out and bring it forward. I am very interested in that.
Senator Callbeck: The other question I want to ask is about access to higher education. As you mentioned in your outline, part of your mandate concerns workplace skills and learning, and that includes the student loan program. Is your department anticipating any changes in that student loan program, or any other initiatives to help make higher education more accessible to all Canadians?
Ms. Stronach: Bill C-48 has $1.5 billion of new money out of surpluses over two years for access to post-secondary education; along with, most recently, is the money that was in Bill C-43, which commits additional money to post- secondary education, to be able to access that. So at the moment we are reviewing and working together with the provinces; we are working together with Ontario right now, as we are negotiating a labour market development agreement to see what the enhancements are that we need to make. We will be doing that over the coming months to be ready for the fall.
Again, we are looking at the needs: how we can be innovative on that front, respecting the provincial jurisdiction obviously, but asking how we can best invest that money. We are in the process of negotiating a labour market development agreement with Ontario that has quite a large sum of money to be able to invest in post-secondary education; workplace skills training; apprenticeship programs; investing in the colleges — not only the universities, but also the colleges; apprenticeship programs; training centres, and working together with the unions.
As I pointed out earlier, we need programs that allow for greater flexibility to address the changing nature of the workplace and the economic pressures that are out there, which EI Part I and Part II just do not address right now. We are working on the plans for PSE right now and will be over the coming months with the provinces.
Senator Cordy: Minister, as you will see, we are all interested in the programs you administer in your department, and we hope this is not the last time that you will be before us.
With respect to the bill, I am delighted we are breaking up HRDC and making it into two departments that are far less cumbersome and more focused. I hope this change will be more beneficial to Canadians.
I would like to talk to you this morning about the issue of homelessness. I know this comes under Minister Fontana, but I believe it also comes under your department. The committee has been studying the issue of mental health and mental illness and we have traveled across the country. You cannot talk about mental health and illness in isolation; you have to talk about it in terms of, for instance, homelessness as one issue, and poverty and education. You spoke earlier about skills development — and there are numerous other issues, but many of us would say that de- institutionalization a number of years ago has led to an increase in homelessness and in the number of people who are now on the street.
One of the things that we heard from people who are running wonderful programs across the country for those who are in need of shelter is that the process for looking for government funding, for help in developing programs, is becoming more and more cumbersome for individuals because of having to fill out the paperwork, although they certainly understood the need for accountability. When are you getting government funding no one should be given funding without a full understanding of how the money will be spent, but they felt that perhaps recently we have gone a little bit overboard. They told us that sometimes they would get notice of a program, but that just looking at it they could see that it was just not worth the time involved to fill out the forms.
I am wondering if there is any movement with Minister Fontana at looking at the homelessness file and making it easier to access and more timely so that people are not waiting for months and months to hear back on a file.
Ms. Stronach: I will certainly speak with Mr. Fontana about the duration it is taking to be able to get a response back. I have not had that conversation specifically with him, but I will do so and will be very happy to report back.
Again, I will refer to Bill C-48; it does allocate $1.6 billion over two years to provide increased affordable housing, including housing for Aboriginal communities. There is an increase of funds to be able to meet that need, but when I look at homelessness, and I look at it as part of education and training as well and being able to access education and training, that is really the way for some people, if not everyone, to build a better quality of life for themselves and to be able at the end of the day to get a job and, with ongoing training, perhaps to get a better quality job.
Investing in people and making sure, in terms of the government's role, that we have the right programs to build the skill levels that people need to access and acquire a job is pretty important stuff. For example, EI Part I and Part II are useful when you already have a job, because EI is an insurance-based program which, once you have a job, you pay into; that serves an important need and is a program that we monitor annually to determine how we can improve it on an ongoing basis.
What we are looking at with Ontario in terms of the Labour Market Development Agreement is perhaps a template or the framework for programs that can meet the needs of the various provinces in this country. It relates more to building the capacity to enable people to get the right skills and the experience needed to be able to get into the workplace, and then, once they are in the workplace, to be able to upgrade their skills, because the challenge, as the senator pointed out, is not only first of all to help people get a job, but also to look at how we can be more innovative and more productive. Also, people need to upgrade their skills while they have the job in order to be more productive; they have to build up their educational level in order to keep their job as businesses need to be more productive. Part of their lifelong learning as individuals maturing through life, especially for those who want to stay in the workforce, is that they have to have the ability to continue to upgrade their skills throughout their career.
We also encourage businesses and entrepreneurs to co-invest, and to make sure they invest the appropriate money to ensure that the training is provided to workers who want to stay in the workforce. While Minister Fontana deals with homelessness, we also have to work together to make sure we have the right programs so that people can get into the workforce.
Senator Cordy: That is true, because it is difficult do get into the workforce and into training if you do not have a home. I agree with what you say; it all fits together.
Ms. Stronach: To stay in the workplace and then adapt as the workplace changes is not an easy challenge, but part of it is that we first be cognizant of the issues and then make sure, by working in collaboration with the provinces and with the unions and employers, that the programs we develop are really appropriate and effective.
Senator Cook: I would like to pick up on where Senator Cordy left off.
I want to congratulate you on the decision to split this unwieldy department in order to make it more focused and, I hope, more accountable.
There is a subculture in this country of homelessness and poverty. In our mental health study we have heard time and again of the need for affordable housing and shelter housing. We have heard wonderful stories about partnerships with NGOs. In my province of Newfoundland we heard that an organization secured $750,000 from Chevron for a shelter-housing initiative. However, they were very frustrated with the government with regard to meeting the criteria required to access matching funds. I hope that this new department, in concert with Minister Fontana, will focus on this very real subculture in Canada. Unless we have vision, people will perish, as we have seen. There are many people who need a lot of help and, in partnership with NGOs, we should make that help accessible. Only when people are taken off the street and given housing can they acquire a skill and get a decent job. You cannot go to school or get a decent job if you have nowhere to put your head or cannot pay the rent or clothe yourself.
Ms. Stronach: I agree with what you have said. I want to talk a little more about Service Canada with regard to access. Service Canada will enable individuals to access government services much more easily. Services will be accessible at physical Service Canada offices, but also through the Internet and by phone. In April and May alone, about 100,000 individuals contacted us with regard to things other than HRSDC services. Through that, we have learned that as we roll out our services in the coming years we can perform a very important triage function.
We must first get the broader economy right in order to generate greater wealth and ensure that people have access to good quality jobs as well as to homes. The government must provide its services to Canadians in an efficient manner that adds value and is accessible. The goal of Service Canada is to provide better access and better quality service. When people require access to affordable housing or training for a good job, our services should be much better and more responsive.
Senator Cook: With regard to skills development, as per Maslow's theory, basic human needs must be met before we move up the pyramid. I hope that your department will work with others, because skills development is further up the pyramid. I am talking about a segment of the population that needs basic human skills to help them move forward.
Ms. Glover: With regard to homelessness, the National Homelessness Initiative of our department was recently renewed in the budget. That is an important, albeit small, part of the equation. That is a partnership-based initiative that has agreements with 71 communities in Canada so far. In addition, CMHC was recently brought under the purview of Minister Fontana. For the first time, the homelessness initiative and CMHC will be reporting to the same minister. I know that their first priority is the creation of a national housing framework based on the kind of partnerships you are talking about.
Senator Cook: Thank you for that, but the Supporting Community Partnerships Initiative is making life more difficult for people rather than better.
Senator Fairbairn: Welcome, Madam Minister. I am delighted to see you in this portfolio. Your comments today will strike a very positive chord within the literacy community of this country, in which I am a worker. The department has worked hard and done a splendid job at the skills and training part of its mandate, which productivity studies show is critical.
The budget has provided an opportunity, not only in that area but also in a number of others, to get into the critical issue in this country of the disturbing number of Canadians who cannot access the good work and programs of the government and other organizations because they cannot read and write and therefore cannot function in everyday tasks. Those are the people whom the federal government and every provincial and territorial government in this country are trying to assist.
In addition to opportunities on skills and learning, the budget provides opportunities to open doors for Aboriginal people. Moreover, for the first time, there are good initiatives for immigrants who face barriers when they come to this country, even though their skill levels are high.
Finally, the program that, in my seemingly endless years on Parliament Hill, has impressed me the most, in any department, has been the work of the National Literacy Secretariat within your department on this very difficult issue across the country. This is where I think you have a huge opportunity.
You have in your hands a report that was produced by Parliament — it was the first in the history of the House of Commons — about three or four years ago, when the Human Resources Committee did a study of literacy in Canada. They brought out a report that struck a chord all across the country, including the provinces. This is an issue in respect of which it is absolutely imperative that we work with the provinces — and we do. They are very interested in one of the proposals of that report, which was to have a pan-Canadian literacy accord. You will find that this will open positive discussions with colleagues in the various provinces.
I would ask that the department be given every opportunity to deal with this foundation issue. Without it, we will not go anywhere in the new productivity world. I commend you and the government for bringing in a soldier in this battle, named Claudette Bradshaw, who did it for homelessness and who will do it for literacy. All that she needs, along with the National Literacy Secretariat, is your blessing to get on the ground, where the parents need to learn in order to help their children.
There are programs on the ground to do that. We must be very active in helping them do that through the associations and through the provinces.
Ms. Stronach: Thank you very much, senator. I commend you for your passion on this important issue and your continued dedication.
Let me confirm the department's commitment, my own commitment, and, as you said, the champion's commitment, Minister Bradshaw. This is her number one priority. There is additional money allocated to her over three years, $5 million this year, for a total of $30 million over the next three years, so that we can really tackle this issue of literacy. There has not been much movement in 10 years on this issue.
You are correct. It is the foundation. It is part of the basics that you must have to be able to continue to build your skills. If you cannot read, it makes it very difficult and challenging to be able to advance and progress. I share your commitment and concern. Minister Bradshaw will be travelling across the country this summer. I hope to join her in a number of the round tables she puts together. She is working closely with the provinces and with labour leaders. She is going into the Aboriginal communities and is engaging business as well, to ensure that this is looked at in a comprehensive way throughout the summer. By fall, we will put together a comprehensive strategy to try to make progress on this issue.
The commitment is there. As you said, she a real soldier and will tackle this issue. She has my 100 per cent support to do that.
Senator Fairbairn: That is great to hear. You can count me in, if I can help in any way.
Ms. Stronach: We invite to you participate.
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Senator Chaput: Welcome, Madam Minister. I am pleased to hear you talk about the new initiatives, which in this case, are not necessarily new ones that are being added to existing ones. The goal seems to be re-evaluating these initiatives to make them more effective.
I want to talk about Services Canada and tell you to what extent I am happy to see that finally, HRDC is responsible for Services Canada.
Allow me to explain myself. I represent francophones living in a minority situation; I come from Manitoba. In Manitoba, five or six years ago we were working very hard on what is commonly known as “one stop shop.” It was a file I was working on before being appointed to the Senate. We now have three one stop shops in Manitoba, one located in an urban area, and two in rural areas. For francophone communities living in a minority situation, bilingual services are provided in these centres. Francophones have access to services provided by the federal, provincial, and municipal governments. There is a sharing of resources; these centres are bilingual. In Manitoba, one can be sure of receiving services in French.
In the past, the difficulty has been that Services Canada never fell under the responsibility of a federal department. We had to deal with several federal departments. Now, the Department of Human Resources is responsible for Services Canada, and I am very happy about this. I hope that the initiatives will be ongoing. Earlier, you talked about the possibility of delivering services to the Chinese community in Chinese, and there is incredible potential in this type of approach. Madam Minister, I am sure that if you were to travel to Manitoba, you would be very proud to visit the three centres that are working very well.
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Ms. Stronach: It is my intention to go there this summer. The mandate of Service Canada is to have one-stop shopping, working together closely with the provinces. In some cases it may be very close; I will use the example of Ontario, with whom at the moment we are negotiating the agreement, where you would have Service Canada/Service Ontario. We would work together to find out who can do what most efficiently and streamline it. It should bring down the costs and free up resources, and in some cases, where it is no longer necessary, we will not have to have that program any more.
We need to continuously adapt, whether it be in business or in government, as the needs change. The goal is one- stop shopping and better services in official languages.
This should be very much a positive thing for the rural communities because we have 320 locations now. That will be extended to 600 points of services. Those do not necessarily mean a physical permanent presence. In many cases, it can be a mobile unit that is scheduled to go into a community on a scheduled basis so that people know that the mobile unit will be there to take passport applications and to provide Internet access. We are working together with public works and a significant amount of satellite time is purchased. We are working together and pooling the government resources to be able to better deliver these programs and enable Canadians to access these programs. I think it is being very well received.
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Senator Chaput: I am pleased to hear you talk about remote rural communities. That would become a very important initiative for these communities.
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The Chairman: Madam Minister, I thank you and your officials for coming here this morning. Honourable senators, we will take a two-minute break while we switch panels, as it were, and have Minister Dryden come before us.
Vis-à-vis the issue of clause-by-clause consideration of the bill, I think you will recall that there was a debate in the chamber last week over whether clause-by-clause consideration ought to be done on the same day as the committee hearings are finishing. The ultimate decision by both sides — at least so I was informed by our leader's office — is that, in the absence of a unanimous decision to do so, we will not proceed with clause-by-clause consideration on the same day. Although they had to attend a leadership meeting, both Senator Stratton and Senator LeBreton indicated to me that they did not want to proceed with clause-by-clause consideration today.
Accordingly, the Senate is meeting on Monday at 4 p.m. Both whips have approved that we will meet at 3 p.m. to give clause-by-clause consideration to the two bills. We will report the bills on Monday afternoon rather than this afternoon.
We will now proceed with Minister Dryden on Bill C-22, to establish the Department of Social Development. Since the minister is a lawyer, I can say that lawyers, just to cover themselves, always add at the end of these bills the words, “to amend and repeal certain related acts”. I have never figured out if that is really needed, but the lawyers always do it.
Honourable senators, we have with us now Minister Dryden, the Minister of Social Development. With him are Mr. Peter Hicks, Ms. Julie Lalonde-Goldenberg and Mr. Mitch Bloom from the department.
Minister, thank you for coming. We will proceed to your opening statement and then follow that with some questions from my colleagues.
The Honourable Ken Dryden, Minister of Social Development: Honourable senators, thank you for inviting me to appear before this committee to discuss the legislation for the new Department of Social Development.
The Senate of Canada and Senate committees have played a significant role in examining social issues and in helping to set priorities and directions for them. I look forward, as Minister of Social Development, to working with you.
As Canadians, we have certain understandings about what it is to be Canadian — what we expect of ourselves and for ourselves, and what we expect of and for others. As Canadians, we expect a chance, and a second chance. We expect the opportunity of a full, rich, rewarding life.
For some, this does not happen easily — perhaps because of illness or accident, disability, poverty or age; perhaps because of personal or family circumstance, or because of something that puts us behind, when the race begins, or something that occurs somewhere along its way. At Social Development Canada, it is our job to see the gaps between those understandings or expectations and the reality of what is, and, with others, to do something about closing those gaps. SDC measures how we are living up to those understandings and works with others to do a better job.
Social Development Canada was created 18 months ago, inheriting from other departments a set of policies, programs and services for seniors, persons with disabilities, children, families and caregivers and communities, and inheriting the values and motivations that set them in motion. SDC's purpose is to build upon all this to ensure income security and social well-being, which strengthen Canada's social foundations and social cohesion.
It is up to SDC to help seniors make the most of their lives. It is up to SDC to ensure that their public pensions are enough to underpin the basics of their life, and to ensure that those pensions will be there next year, and 10 years from now, and 50 years from now, when they and we need them.
The February budget announced an increase to the Guaranteed Income Supplement, which by 2007 will add up to about $400 a year for a single senior and $700 for a couple. New funding over the next five years will total $2.7 billion.
However, quality of life for seniors is not just measured in terms of income support. It lies in the purpose of every day. A program like New Horizons for Seniors, which also received a funding boost in the recent budget, helps those who have reached their “second life” to share their skills, experience and wisdom with others, to make their communities better and, in the process, to make their own lives better as well.
To prepare for Canada's growing and increasingly diverse population of seniors, the government is establishing a National Seniors' Secretariat. Working across departments, with other levels of government and with others, this will be the federal focal point for seniors.
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Another area concern for SDC is people with disabilities. Once, people with disabilities were kept out of sight. Their disability defined them and was allowed to define them, too often even in their own minds.
More than 20 years ago, the Charter of Rights and Freedoms reinforced our understanding of equality; it reinforced as Canadians our sensitivities to this community. Now people with disabilities want to live, and insist on living, fully and completely — at school, at work, at play, in their moment-to-moment lives.
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The Government of Canada has taken significant steps over the years, particularly in the areas of employment, income and taxation, to help persons with disabilities overcome many barriers to inclusion. SDC brings together the Government of Canada's significant income support program, the CPP-Disability, with other programs and services offered by the Office for Disability Issues to promote the full inclusion of persons with disabilities in all aspects of learning, work and community.
We know that we need to do more, but we also know that we cannot do it alone. That is why SDC is working with the provinces and territories and the disability community to develop a 10-year plan of action to advance the full inclusion of persons with disabilities.
As well, I know the extensive work this committee has done in the field of mental health and mental illness. I look forward to knowing more about what you have learned and your recommendations on future approaches and priorities.
People in communities are finding innovative new ways to tackle old problems. At SDC, we help. One such innovation is through the social economy — community-based social enterprises that are entrepreneurial, but not for profit. While many Canadian communities have successfully identified their own unique approach to helping their residents, others are finding it more difficult. By doing research into what works and sharing these strategies with other communities, SDC is working to help community-based efforts that improve the lives of Canadians.
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Over 2.8 million Canadians provide care to seniors, to adults and children with disabilities, and to Canadians with acute and long term health problems.
For some, the demands are overwhelming. Recognizing that unpaid family caregivers need help and support, we now have a Minister of State responsible for Families and Caregivers. SDC is working with the provinces and territories, and has asked Canadians for their views in developing a comprehensive caregivers' strategy.
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In our planning for the years to come, Social Development Canada has made the commitment to ensure that all Canadian children have the opportunity to get a good start in life. A comprehensive set of policies and programs, such as the Canada Child Tax Benefit and the National Child Benefit Supplement, assist parents and support and enhance the range of families' choices and circumstances. However, we know that parents of young children require more flexibility and choice. SDC, therefore, was given a mandate in last fall's Speech from the Throne to increase access to the kind of quality early-learning and child-care programs that can help families put their children on an even better life path. The Budget then announced $5 billion over five years to move us towards this goal.
Working together, the provinces and territories and the federal government have developed a shared vision for early learning and child care, and I have been working with each province and territory on bilateral agreements in principle that will move this vision from dream to reality. Five provinces have signed these agreements so far, and we expect more to do so in the weeks and months ahead.
I will now address some of the specific aspects of the legislation. I understand that my colleague, Belinda Stronach, the Minister of Human Resources and Skills Development Canada, met with you earlier this morning. Like the legislation proposed by my colleague, the proposed Department of Social Development Act is primarily administrative and reflects the December 12, 2003, Orders-in-Council.
The vast majority of the provisions found in Part 1 of the proposed Department of Social Development Act are taken from the former Department of Human Resources Development Act. The powers, duties and functions section of Part 1, clauses 5 to 7, is the most important part of the new legislation. This section gives me, as minister, the legal powers and tools to fulfil Social Development Canada's mandate. It also allows the department to pursue the Prime Minister's commitment of strengthening Canada's social foundations by making the department the focal point for social policy development within the Government of Canada.
The new mandate will allow us to work horizontally with other federal partners, other levels of government, community organizations and others to promote social development in Canada.
I should like to draw your attention to the bill's Protection of Personal Information Code. A Protection of Personal Information Code currently exists in both the Canada Pension Plan and the Old Age Security Act to provide transparent rules for the protection and disclosure of CPP and OAS personal information. The new legislation proposes a similar code for the protection of personal information that strikes a balance between permitting disclosure and putting in place sufficient safeguards to protect personal information.
Together with the CPP and OAS codes, the department will have a comprehensive regime for the management of personal information, which will cover all programs and activities of the department, current and future.
Last, I would point out that we are using this proposed legislation as the vehicle to repeal the now obsolete 1961 Vocational Rehabilitation of Disabled Persons Act. The repeal of this act is largely a housekeeping function. It will not have an impact on persons with disabilities or on any of our existing agreements with provinces and territories. The current and more modern multilateral framework for labour market agreements for persons with disabilities eliminates the need for the VRPD agreements.
In conclusion, as I said at the beginning of my remarks, as Canadians we have certain understandings about what it is to be Canadian; what we expect of ourselves and for ourselves, what we expect of and for others. At Social Development Canada, we will not forget those understandings we share as Canadians, and we will not let others forget them either. In terms of these understandings, we will work always to close the gap between where we are and where we expect ourselves to be. That is an important task. That is why this department has been created and why this legislation has been brought forward. I hope you will give it your careful consideration.
The Chairman: I do not know whether you would call this a promo or an advance warning. As you commented, we are, in the last six months of our study, focusing on mental health and mental illness. We will have a number of concrete and specific recommendations aimed at your department, ranging from some changes that are required in CPP disability to some issues relating to mental illness among children, and so on.
Unlike many parliamentary committees that have a tendency to give general recommendations based on a previous report, in our case you should make the assumption that they will be concrete and fully costed. We will look forward to discussing those with you, because one of the interesting things about public expenditures on those who suffer from mental illness is that only about 30 per cent, whether provincial or federal, comes from the health department. The vast majority comes from community service departments or from social service departments and so on.
Interestingly enough, in terms of the impact the Government of Canada has on Canadians with mental illness, your department has a much greater impact than the health department has. That is because of the way the programs are structured and the fact that these people need many social services.
By way of comment, we do look forward to working with you and your officials come the end of the year, because there is a significant amount that you can do for people who are mentally ill, who frankly have kind of disappeared from the political agenda for far too long. As you commented in your opening statement, 20 or 25 years ago we started to make real progress on people with physical handicaps, and the time has come to embark on a similar attack to improve the lives of those who have mental illness.
I do not know if you want to make a comment on that. I was really telling you that that is where we are going and you guys will be very much affected. That was the purpose of my comment.
Mr. Dryden: I look forward to that. One of your challenges, I believe, as you work through that, and it will be a challenge for us all after, is to try to find a means of telling that story in a powerful enough way that it moves closer to a front burner. It is a challenge that we have in the area of disabilities now.
One thing that strikes me about the way we have chosen, probably out of frustration, to try to tell those stories is that we do it with the loudness of the numbers, and the numbers get larger and larger, hoping and assuming that if they get large enough the public will respond in a certain way. I do not think that is what happens. We get to a certain point where those numbers, instead of becoming energizing, become de-energizing. The challenge for you and the challenge for us is to find a way of taking those numbers, of finding the implications of those numbers and conveying those implications in a way that expresses the real power and energy behind them.
The Chairman: We totally agree with you, and we will have a major thrust dealing with exactly how we attack the stigma and discrimination that exists in this country:
Senator Keon: Thank you for coming here, minister. It is nice to see you.
I asked Ms. Stronach, who appeared just before you, how she envisaged controlling growth. Returning to the recommendation of the standing committee of the House in 2000, essentially they said that HRDC, as it was structured then, was fundamentally too big and unruly; that may be a bit harsh, but that is what they said. They said that it had to be broken up and made into more efficient components. We now have two bills before us creating two separate entities.
The Director General responded that their mandate is to function within the financial limits of the previous HRDC, but I mentioned that, having spent my life in Ottawa and known many people in the civil service, I do not think that ever happens. There are upsizes and downsizes and so forth. Usually, when something new is created, there is growth.
I will ask you a difficult question which you probably have not had time to really think about, but how do you see your new organization being developed from the resources within the old organization? You will have many new initiatives. You will not, I think, have the expertise you need within your organization for the new initiatives. You will have to redeploy people. In my opinion, you will have to bring some new ones in. How do you see the development of it?
Mr. Dryden: To go to your original point first and then work from that, it is a good idea to split up the one larger department. You described the previous department as too big and unruly, and I think it was. At that time I was just looking at it as an outsider, but once something gets big and unruly, it only tends to get bigger and more unruly, and when it becomes big enough and unruly enough it loses a focused definition. Once there is not that kind of definition, then it becomes a catch-all. It becomes a place where the next new program that seems to be important will find its new home, whether it entirely fits there or not. It may well fit marginally better there than it does somewhere else, so it ends up there. Bigger becomes even bigger, and unruly becomes more unruly.
At a certain point, one of the difficulties with the previous department was that it lost coherence in that way. We begin, each of us as individual departments, with a greater coherence and a greater chance, with a greater coherence, to remain that way.
That being said, your question is a good question and a right question. If the two words “social development” are taken for what they actually mean, our responsibility, as I said in my owning remarks, is to try to take what we, as Canadians, see as what it is we are, and what we expect for ourselves and expect for others, and to try to translate that into a standard, so that, working with others, we can use that standard to see how we are doing.
Right now, essentially, we are defined by particular areas: children, and the programs we provide for children; seniors, and what it is we provide for seniors; persons with disabilities, and what it is we provide for persons with disabilities; the voluntary community; the caregivers. If we are to do our job properly, at the very least, we need to see across those dividers to a life and to see those different elements as simply parts of a life or stages of a life but very much connecting them as a life.
Certainly, there will be a further defining of this department. In the event that there is growth in the department, I hope and assume — and will work towards that end — that it will be the right kind of growth, the growth that comes out of the priorities that the government has and the priorities that Canadians have to do a better job in providing these kinds of social understandings that Canadians have.
Senator Keon: Thank you for that. I wish to return to two points. First, I hope you will accept a bit of humour, but I notice there is talk about expanding the National Council on Welfare from 13 to 15. My experience through my life and from serving on a number of these things is that the bigger they are, the “badder” they are. There is a certain critical amount of intellectualism you need to gather around the table, but once you go beyond a critical point, you are relegated to having the chairperson sort of directed by the bureaucrats to giving everyone an opportunity to say their little thing, and then everyone goes home, as opposed to the good councils that roll up their sleeves and really do a job. I would hope that, rather than expanding this council, you will take it back to 12.
I heard with amusement that one of the greatest councils ever assembled was 12. It was assembled by the first leader of the Christian community and he did pretty well over the next 2,000 years. I hope you will keep that in mind.
Senator Carstairs: That did not turn out to be very good.
Senator Keon: You can say what you like, but they got the job done.
Senator Cordy: We are still talking about it years later.
Mr. Dryden: What would today be like if there had been 15?
Senator Keon: There could have been two Judases.
On a serious note, I want to bring you back to the predicament of seniors that you raised. It is a truly serious predicament, particularly for seniors who are self-employed throughout their professional lives. My own profession, the medical profession, had large numbers of these people. They retired thinking they were fine, and most of the financial analysts were projecting revenues of 8 per cent or 10 per cent from their investments. Now many of them have either no revenues or negative revenues. The revenues generated from their investments are not even enough to pay the financial managers, in many cases. Many of them slipped back badly, as you know very well, from the late 1990s up to the early 2000s. They are really in a dreadful predicament.
Seniors' pensions do not bring seniors over the poverty line now. This whole area needs a careful look. It needs more than throwing a little money into Old Age Security. Many of these people are now suffering hardships. I think it will get a lot worse for them.
Mr. Dryden: The addition of two members has to do with covering the other two territories that have not been represented. That is the rationale. Given that as the rationale, it would seem pretty difficult to go to 16 or 17 and then the rest. We are where we are now, and that number will not change. I understand the challenge of having the right mass at the table, and finding a way to deliver on it.
The whole question of seniors interests me greatly. Earlier, we were talking about how to frame messages concerning mental health and disability. Another of the challenges is how to frame a message for seniors. The beginning of the framing is to say that we are living longer and living healthier. Both statements are true and both are interesting. I am not sure that they capture enough to make one start to think of this in a different way.
For me, at least, the way to frame it is to say this: because we are living longer and healthier, we will live about one quarter of our lives as seniors. That is an undeniably long time. That is not an accident. That is not something that five years from now will start to change. If we are to be living that length of time as seniors, which is longer than we live as children, then it starts to make one think about the life of a senior.
Recently, in Quebec, there were federal-provincial-territorial meetings on seniors. A number of interesting things came out around the table. Of course, at meetings like that we all talk about what it is we have done. However, the basic message, regardless of what has been done to date, is that we are at the beginning of what it is we will be doing in this area.
A lot of it will come out of the understanding that this is a life, not a category. As a life, it has all the different elements, motivations and desires that any life has. As all of us know, at age 64 and 364 days, you are not really a different person from what you will be at age 65 and one day. You have all the same kinds of ambitions and hopes in your life; yet you have fewer instruments to realize them.
We talk about quality of life in terms of income and health. However, I do not know that we talk very often about quality of life in terms of purpose. For most seniors on most days, health and income are not their primary thoughts. What is their primary thought? It is: “What am I doing today?” That will determine how they feel.
I was lucky that I had parents who found their purpose after they retired, and they did not know it. They thought their purpose had been in the first 60 years of their lives, but they discovered that their purpose was in their last 30 years, and they were very lucky because of it.
The wonderful thing in starting to look at seniors in this way is that it gets into all of the questions you are talking about. It gets into the question of mandatory retirement age. It gets into questions that are very difficult to deal as one- offs. However, set in the context of a life and the way in which people live, they are good entrees into all of that. It is something that I would like to do more work on in the time that I have as Minister of Social Development.
Senator Keon: I think the financial question for seniors is truly serious.
Mr. Dryden: Senator Keon, that will be one of the challenges. When you look realistically at the dimensions of our income supplements relative to the rest of the world, we do pretty well. If we want our seniors to do better, it may well be that the answer does not reside there directly but rather more in the way in which we were talking about a moment ago. That is to say, how do we understand that senior's life and allow for certain flexibilities within that life that will enhance his or her ability to deal with the problems that you are talking about.
Senator Keon: I agree with what you have said, and I understand it. I hope you can get it focused and do something about it because it is important.
Senator Fairbairn: Welcome to the committee. I was struck by your phrase “seeing across dividers.” For a long time, I followed the department in which your responsibilities used to lie in. What has happened with the division is a very good thing in terms of being able to put a direct focus on certain issues that otherwise would be part of another focus.
The other thing that I see in your department and in your responsibilities is that so much of what you do will also draw in your colleagues, because they will have a piece of it somewhere along the line.
I want to address the matter of early childhood development, minister. You might not remember this because it is a long time ago. The first time I met you was not during your former profession. I was startled to find you promoting literacy among children. I have never forgotten that. It seems very appropriate that you should be the one taking over what I think is one of the most important issues when we talk about learning, that is, early childhood development; it is very satisfying that we are finally accepting that little folks can start to absorb and learn when they are 18 months and on.
Other than to tell you to go for it, my only other comment to you is that you must never forget that many of the kids who will have the opportunities about which we are speaking will go home after a great day at kindergarten, for example, and they will walk into a home without books or a home in which the parents cannot read. That troubles me, which is why I am continuing to encourage and take part in the issue of literacy. Early childhood development is a huge part of that, but it has to be seen in the context of there being adults in this country with small children and yet those adults themselves have not had the opportunity or the inspiration to learn.
It is good that the two departments will be separate. However, through the National Literacy Secretariat or by other means, they should be able to communicate on the matter.
Our committee addressed the issue of health care. Early on in our study, we heard a great deal about how our young people suffer from obesity as a result of their lifestyles. That shocked us at first, but we now know it is common knowledge.
When I begin addressing that, it brings me into your former profession in the world of sports. There is such a connection with health, disabilities, and sports that should be pulled together but is not.
I understand there are discussions going around about the degree to which sports, unlike the way it used to be, are not part of the development of young people in this country and accessibility to a large degree is the problem. If you are in a community that is running short of funds, one of the first things to be removed is the arena or the gym. When you factor this in with the needs of children or adults with disabilities, it is even more of a concern.
I am wondering if some of the work you will be doing within the department involves having conversations with colleagues who have responsibilities in the sports area. It would be a helpful thing to have that because it is a way of giving people opportunities, helping them grow, and getting them out of the situation they are in. I doubt that there is any group in the country that is more representative of that, or could be of amy more help in getting messages across, than our disabled athletes who perform as Paralympians.
Mr. Dryden: At the start you mentioned the delivery of programs; we do not have many programs in the first place. In order for us to do what we would like to do, we have to work with others.
Senator Fairbairn: Exactly.
Mr. Dryden: We must be influential. The way we can become most influential, going back to what I was saying before, is through understanding, creating, caring, and pursuing a very compelling story, connecting the pieces, and getting those pieces out there in some kind of way that people understand and therefore put pressure on other entities to get involved and to add their piece to the whole thing.
You referred to the learning part of the situation. One thing has really frustrated me for a long time, and it probably started when I was a youth commissioner dealing mostly with unemployed kids who were in their early 20s and had dropped out of school; essentially, what we were providing were second-chance possibilities under the Second Chance Program. They were not great second chances. They were okay, they were better than nothing, but they were not great.
What we clearly have in our school system is one stream. We have an academic stream and we have “other.” That does not represent a stream; it represents “other”. It makes no sense to anyone, and nobody knows what it is. Teachers, employers, and parents do not know what “other” is. We say that “other” should be training, but it is not. There is no attraction to “other”; you cannot sell it.
In our early 20s we talk about training as lifelong learning. The wonderful phrase of “lifelong learning” has ended up being monopolized and boxed into a certain age and circumstance of person, when really what we need to be doing is taking back the phrase and having it mean exactly what it says. It should include early learning and child care as well as learning at age 40, 50 and as seniors. It should represent the understanding that we are learning beings. What makes us special as human beings is the fact that we learn at all different stages of our life, and that means connecting.
With respect to the problem of obesity in children, it is one of the things we can seize on as opportunities to make change. It is a little opportunity — not necessarily little, but it can begin as a little opportunity — in terms of early learning and child care.
You talked about health, disability, sports, obesity and connecting all of those things. Sports are not really related as closely to obesity as many of the other things are, but I think sports have become something that is quite organized, and you either do it in an organized way or you do not do it.
I think obesity emerges out of a style and pattern of life and out of habit. In the Olympics we have gold medal winners, and perhaps through their inspiration they will change things, in that people will decide, for instance, that they want to be a gymnast, and that will generate the kind of fitness and habits we want, and we will move away from obesity. I do not think there is inspiration in the way it changes our lifestyles. I think obesity is a habit, which is day after day. Habits can begin early and do begin early.
I think over time there could be an impact in the early learning and child-care circumstance and setting. If we do it right, some of those habits will begin fairly early: Movement, exercise, engaging in something physically — those things will have a far greater impact on obesity than anything else.
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Senator Gill: You are responsible for a fundamental, important area, social development in Canada. I would like to know what lines of communication you have with the Department of Indian Affairs, and the Department of Health, which, in fact, is responsible for dealing with first nations. Are there lines of communication; what type of relations do you have with these departments? I would like to know what type of impact, in terms of social development, you can make on first nations in this country.
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Mr. Dryden: Whatever lines of communication we have are ones that we will need to improve.
One of the particular areas will be through early learning and child care. Out of $5 billion over five years, $100 million will go to First Nations. It is very much our understanding, as well as that of the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development, that education, learning and development are fundamental to doing better in that area. It has to involve learning and development.
About 10 years ago I wrote a book on schools. I went back to school and attended class the whole year in order to observe the people in the classroom. There is an incredible range of people in the classroom, with an incredible range of backgrounds. We are getting used to difference; we are not so startled by it. We no longer do double takes at difference. There is a much better opportunity for First Nations children and soon-to-be adults to do better as adults because the adult world will react much better to difference than has been the case historically.
However, we must do much better at the earlier stages to allow for the opportunity that is increasingly there for the adult. That opportunity is not to be missed. It is part of our responsibility to work with them, and it is part of the responsibility of the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development to work with us. That is part of developing the right kind of approach and the right kind of package for early learning and child care for kids in First Nations communities. We know the potential impact of our doing it right or not doing it right.
Senator Gill: When you talk about the difference, I presume that you have also been working with kids on the non- Indian side with respect to education on the difference between the people. It must go both ways, I imagine.
Mr. Dryden: That is right.
Senator Gill: Is your communication line also with the First Nations themselves?
Mr. Dryden: Yes, it is.
Senator Gill: You have the First Nations also?
Mr. Dryden: I have met with many First Nations leaders and I will do more of that. We have made promises to each other that I will go they will take me into their communities and show me what is what. I have said, “Here is the time; here is the opportunity. You show me what you want to show me, what you need to show me, and let us take it from there.”
Senator Gill: When you have the time, let me know, and I will take you to my reserve.
Senator Cordy: Thank you very much, minister, for being with us this afternoon. I think are you in the right portfolio, because you are certainly very passionate about social development and social issues. That is wonderful.
First, I would like to talk about seniors. The fact that we now have a national secretariat for seniors is absolutely wonderful. The return of the New Horizons program is also a wonderful thing. I travelled across the country several years ago on a task force dealing with seniors. Interestingly enough, it was not the huge programs they wanted, but the New Horizons. They said it was the small things they wanted, the small funding issues. When that particular program disbanded, only the huge programs were available, but they could not access them because they could not match the money. So I congratulate you. Is the program fully operational at this point? Can people actually apply for grants or for funding from it?
Also related to seniors, as we travelled across the country we heard that often seniors are isolated, particularly in the rural areas, because there is a movement all across the country of young people who are leaving rural areas and moving to urban centres. In light of that isolation, and in light of the fact that many seniors do not have family members around to tell them about government programs for which they may be eligible, how does your department communicate to seniors? Previously, you could include this information when you were sending them pension cheques, or whatever. Now, however, many pension cheques are directly deposited into bank accounts. How do you communicate to seniors who may be isolated and not aware of the various programs?
Mr. Dryden: I will ask the people here to answer that part specifically. In terms of the program being fully operational, yes, it is, and it is growing. It was originally funded for $8 million the first year and for $10 million the second. It will now jump to $15 million, $20 million and $25 million, as of the last budget, and then it will stay at $25 million.
Concerning your comment about large-scale projects or small-scale projects, I do not think that we are anywhere near what a New Horizons program can be. In terms of seniors, and having a purpose, and so on, the New Horizons involves small projects. It is intended for projects that are of importance to local communities and projects that are done by seniors. At least as important as what the projects do for the communities is what they do for the seniors who are involved in them. A project becomes a focal point. It becomes a reason to get out of your house, to go somewhere, to meet, to engage with someone else, and to generate all kinds of accidental possibilities that do not exist if you do not get outside that house.
What can we do in that way to further generate those constructive accidents? Over time, with each new funding out of New Horizons, the standards will go up, as will the sense of possibilities of what one might do in a local community. They will become better and better known, and it will be part of our job to say something like, “Here is what these other communities have done, just to spur on some of your thinking. With the first proposal that you sent three months ago, you have not even come close yet to how creatively you might do in terms of your next proposals.”
In dealing with kids, I always thought that what really worked with the boys and girls clubs, for instance, was not the programs that they offered there, but the fact that they offered a really comfortable hang-around place. The key to any of these things, I think, is to find hang-around places for seniors. Once you have a hang-around place, then an awful lot of the rest can and does start to happen that will be well beyond anything you could ever fund or do yourselves.
With respect to ensuring that seniors find out about these kinds of programs, I will as Mr. Bloom to respond.
Mr. Mitch Bloom, Director General, Policy and Legislation Branch, Social Development Canada: What a timely question! I spent time this week with the Advisory Committee to the Rural Secretariat, so I had the insight from all of these individuals from across the country as to what we need to do. As the minister already said, we are at the beginning stage. However, there are several things that are worth thinking about for a second.
The previous minister talked about Service Canada. There is a great deal of emphasis on our ability across both of these departments to reach out to the people who are the most difficult to reach. It is easy when someone is on line and doing things like that. We certainly understand that such access is limited in the case of many seniors; I should be careful, though, because I am reminded that they are becoming more Web savvy as each day passes, but we have to take into consideration that, for many, access is limited, especially in more remote communities. We will try to focus those efforts as we continue to retool the service network so that the high-touch service — that is, getting out to people — is focused on those who need to be reached. That is one track of the work.
Another important track is our outreach efforts. We have a national network across the country that goes out into communities and tries to reach them. That is a wonderful opportunity. Certainly, we are focused on that this year with respect to the GIS increase and making sure, to the best of our abilities, that those who are most vulnerable find out about it. That is another track.
Partnerships are also critical. The previous question asked about our relationship with First Nations; we know we have issues there as well. They also happen to live in remote communities. We are working with the AFN and others to try to find ways to reach out to all of these organizations to get the word out. Whether it is through our network or by working with others, it is a real focus and I hope that this relationship with the Rural Secretariat will help us get even better insight into the needs of seniors.
Mr. Peter Hicks, Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy and Strategic Direction Branch, Social Development Canada: In addition to what Mr. Bloom was saying, we still do have the traditional means of getting in touch. We send out 5 million CPP and OAS mail-outs each year. There is still a significant number of the traditional mailing out of information. I think the number is 6 million transactions that still take place a year, which allows for quite a lot of the paper information and telephone communications.
While the newer forms of outreach are there, we are still putting a significant amount of emphasis on the more traditional ways of reaching people through the mails, brochures, handouts and the telephone as people make their transitions. There is a pretty lively direct communication still going on there.
Senator Cordy: I have a question on child care, but I will hold off if there is time.
Senator Carstairs: My question is on child care too, so perhaps I can help.
It is interesting, minister, that we have talked about issues of literacy and obesity. In fact, we can make giant strides on both of those issues if we have quality child care. We can have nutrition education in a quality child-care program. We can have early learning environments that prepare children to enter junior kindergarten, kindergarten, and grade one on a par with other children. At the same time, we can keep those children away from television because they are just too busy running around, having fun and learning within the child-care centre.
Having said all that, because I know you agree with it all, when are we going to get the other five provinces and three territories on board?
Mr. Dryden: That is a very good question. Before I attempt to answer it, I want to thank you for sponsoring the bill in the Senate and shepherding it through.
We are pretty close with a couple of provinces and not far from any of them beyond that. I do not sense that there is a fundamental problem with any of the jurisdictions. We still have some things to work through, but things are moving along pretty well in that way.
The other side of that is that, while things are moving along, nobody is being penalized. The first-year funding is through trust money and it will flow to the provinces and to the territories, and in that way, as we work all of this through, nobody is getting a delayed start. However, we need to keep moving it along.
One thing that has been a pleasant surprise to stakeholders and others, as we have released the agreements that we have all signed, is how ambitious the agreements are. They were expecting that they would be less so. We have kept them to where it is we want to go, and we will continue to do so. Yet, at the same time, there is flexibility within these agreements. One thing we hear a significant amount about is the challenge of the rural areas. That is a challenge, but we understand that. We are looking to find answers in that way and you can find more answers when you have, as in the case of Manitoba, 48 per cent more money for early learning and child care than you would have had before. Saskatchewan has 95 per cent more than it would have had before; New Brunswick has 130 per cent more. That gives you a shot at the more difficult questions.
There is always a limited amount of money, but when you have an amount of money that is far less than you need, then, if you have both more manageable and easier-to-deliver-on questions and more difficult, more expensive ones, where does that money end up going? It is more likely to end up in the areas that are easier to deliver on. However, if you have just that much more, then there is a chance at more of it heading over into those difficult-to-deliver-on areas.
Until March 31, 2006, no one will be paying a price. I feel quite good about the prospect of having agreements with everybody before that time.
Senator Carstairs: My second question has to do with poverty numbers. We have made some significant strides in terms of the child benefit, the tax benefit. We still have far too many children in this country living below the poverty line. What kinds of discussions are now going on among your colleagues in cabinet to bump those figures up a little higher?
Mr. Dryden: Beyond the regular answers of the National Child Benefit increasing to about $10 billion by 2007, or the $5 billion over five years for child care and the impact that could have, one of the things that we need to do, and we have started to talk about it, is set targets. I think targets can be useful things so long as we have a commonly accepted definition of what it is that we are targeting. One of the challenges that we have in an area like poverty is that there are a few different definitions. All of us use the most opportunistic definition, depending on our own particular circumstances at the time.
What I would like to do is to see whether we can come up with a common understanding and definition. Within that common definition, let us see whether it is possible to have certain targets out of that. Otherwise, it becomes too elusive — although not unfairly elusive in terms of people's responses to it, because everybody is doing what they can under these particular circumstances.
The question for all of us is whether we can find a way of doing better in an area that we know we would like to do better in. Unless we feel that there is a path down which we should go, we may try to find other paths and not head to where we should be going.
The Chairman: Minister, thank you and your officials for coming. If I may make one observation, I am not in the habit of flattering people, but I think it was 30 or 31 years ago when I first came to this town and I have never seen a new minister with such a substantive grasp of the policy side of his department as you have exhibited today. I think it has been absolutely extraordinary. I really want to congratulate you on that.
May I also tell you that it will cause you a downside — and there is always a downside. You have certainly convinced the members of this committee with your ability to sell us the policy ideas that you have done; when we give you a series of very specific recommendations for your department, we trust you will be equally successful in selling them to your cabinet colleagues. You have clearly set a standard to which we will be expecting the same kind of performance. Thank you for coming.
Mr. Dryden: Thank you, everybody.
The committee adjourned.