Proceedings of the Subcommittee on
Veterans Affairs
Issue 2 - Evidence
CHARLOTTETOWN, Tuesday, February 1, 2005
The Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs of the Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence met this day at 11:38 a.m. to continue its study on the services and benefits provided to veterans in recognition of their services to Canada.
Senator Michael A. Meighen (Chairman) in the chair.
[English]
The Chairman: Welcome, ladies and gentlemen to this meeting of the Senate subcommittee on Veterans Affairs as we continue our study into the services and benefits provided to veterans in recognition of their services to Canada. We are naturally very pleased to be here in the head office of Veterans Affairs Canada in Prince Edward Island. We look forward to an informative and lively discussion with the deputy minister and his colleagues. We have a full turnout of our subcommittee, as we usually do because the well-being of veterans is a subject that is naturally close to the heart of each and every one of us.
I want to introduce the members of our subcommittee starting from my far left, Senator Tommy Banks from Alberta. Next to him — and they are all distinguished senators, by the way — is Senator Jane Cordy from Nova Scotia and Senator Norman Atkins who really is from New Brunswick but represents Ontario in the Senate. On my immediate right is Senator Michael Forrestall from Nova Scotia. You can see there is a certain preponderance here of wisdom from the east where it always flows from. Senator Joe Day is to the right of Senator Forrestall. Senator Day, of course, is well known to many of you. He is from New Brunswick. We have two welcomed guests with us today. On Senator Day's right is Senator Percy Downe who is, of course, an Islander and has taken a particular interest, even though regrettably he is not a member of our committee. He does too much else, but he does take particular interest in the affairs of the committee and attends our meetings whenever possible. On his right we have another special guest who is another Islander, of course. Senator Archie Johnstone was a senator for a regrettably short period of time due some arcane rule that requires him to retire when he is still a very young man. Archie, it is a pleasure to have you here. It is nice to see you again.
We were fortunate to have a few minutes with Senator Johnstone upstairs in getting some pointers from him and some indications of what he came out of the remarkable experience with, of producing with Senator Orville Phillips that report entitled, ``Raising the Bar: Creating a New Standard in Veterans Health Care.'' I think it really was a seminal report, one that has affected the lives, for the better, of veterans all across the country. I am sure the deputy minister can remind us when he speaks to us as to the percentage or the number of recommendations in ``Raising the Bar'' that have been put into effect. I think it is a very, very high percentage, if not all but one but he can perhaps remind us if his memory is better than mine.
With those preliminaries, there is just one other housekeeping matter that must be attended to. Because Senator Johnstone is regrettably no longer sitting in the Senate, I wish to propose a motion that former Senator Archie Johnstone be authorized to sit at the table with the members of the Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs. Is it agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Formally, I welcome Senator Johnstone.
Let us move right to our business, if we may. We are privileged today to have as witnesses the Deputy Minister of Veterans Affairs, Jack Stagg, along with Brian Fergusson, Darragh Mogan and Bob Mercer, who will be more properly introduced by the deputy minister.
I understand that our format will be a short presentation, which I think has been distributed by the deputy minister. We will then view a short film on the Year of the Veteran. Then we will go to questions and exchanges with department officials.
Without further ado, Deputy Minister, please take the floor. Welcome again. We have always had a wonderful working relationship with you, and we are happy that you are able to be with us today. We look forward to a productive exchange on matters that we all hold dear. Please proceed.
Mr. Jack Stagg, Deputy Minister, Veterans Affairs Canada: Good morning, senators and welcome to Charlottetown. Charlottetown for me, of course, has become a bit of a second home. I have roots in the Maritimes so I did not mind that at all when I was appointed.
Thank you in particular, Senator Meighen, for the invitation to participate in your discussions today. I know that we share common priorities, so I am pleased to have the opportunity to discuss with you the important work of the department and what it is doing with respect to priorities in making these a reality.
I want to introduce formally the departmental officials with me. Brian Ferguson, on my right, is the Assistant Deputy Minister of Veterans Services Branch. On my far left, is Bob Mercer. He is the Executive Director of the Public Affairs Branch. Beside me is Darragh Mogan. He is the Executive Director of Service and Program Modernization Task Force. Behind me I have Suzanne Sarault, who is the Executive Coordinator of the Year of the Veteran, Andrew McGillivary, who is our head of communications, and Derek Sullivan who is head of our Remembrance program.
When the minister spoke with you just before Christmas she thanked the committee for the work it does in support of Canada's veterans. I would like to echo this statement. As you know, we have made 2005 the Year of the Veteran.
[Translation]
Canadians are extremely proud of their veterans, and this is why we have become a world leader for the care we provide to veterans and the gratitude we show them. This leadership will continue. We will do more.
[English]
This is really our opportunity not only to renew our commitment to remember the sacrifices of all our veterans, but also to pay tribute to them through the modernization of services and programs we provide. To do this, we rely on the insights and recommendations of a number of groups, not the least of which of course is yours.
I would like to share with you now very briefly some of what I see as exciting highlights from the Year of the Veteran program, and then discuss the comprehensive benefits modernization approach that we are taking. At your will, we do have short briefings by Mr. Mercer on Year of the Veteran, and Mr. Mogan on modernization. I will leave that to you whether you would like to go right into questions or whether you would like to hear a little bit more detail on what we are doing in each of those two.
First of all, with 2005 and the Year of the Veteran, I am really personally thrilled, as are our minister and our departmental staff, with the real outreach, the very extensive outreach, that is happening this year as the Year of the Veteran. Even before the calendar year began we had marked quite a number of accomplishments. Following the recommendations of veterans' organizations, on November 5 last year many of you, and I know I am including Senator Meighen, were there as witnesses when our minister declared 2005 the Year of the Veteran, in the Senate chambers as well.
On December 1, we started critical renovation work at the Vimy Memorial in France as part of the Canadian Battlefield Memorials Restoration Project. Then on December 14 we officially launched the Year of the Veteran on Parliament Hill. It was wonderful to see so many parliamentarians show up for that including many of you sitting around this table.
As our minister has stated, this year we are asking Canadians essentially to surrender their time, volunteer their hearts and take 12 months to remember fully what really amounted to a century of sacrifice. We will mark the 60th anniversary of major events leading to the end of the Second World War as we have already started doing, in 2004.
[Translation]
During the year, we will help the people of Canada celebrate the contributions of veterans, pay tribute to their sacrifices, remember the legacy they left us and talk to the young about it. Veterans are living history, and we will do everything we can to allow the young to benefit as much as possible from the history they are willing to share with us.
[English]
I was privileged to hear firsthand veterans' stories, both heartwarming and sometimes horrific in mid-January when Minister Guarnieri and I travelled to Hong Kong at the close of the Prime Minister's Asia tour. The three veterans who travelled with us from Canada and those Canadian veterans living in Hong Kong were absolutely delighted that the Prime Minister would come and show visible support of the Year of the Veteran and recognize Hong Kong veterans in particular.
A ceremony of remembrance was held at the Sai Wan War Cemetery where more than 550 Canadians are commemorated. We also visited an international school where our minister spoke to young Canadian students attending there, about the importance of remembrance.
The next overseas journey will be a signature event for the Year of the Veteran. In May, we will take the largest delegation ever overseas to join the people of the Netherlands in celebrating their liberation by Canadians. The plans of our Dutch friends to mark this occasion are already well underway. I am sure you will be moved, just as we all were 10 years ago, by televised images of our Canadian veterans on parade, cheered as the heroes they are by the Dutch people. This will be very special for our veterans. Later in the year, of course, we will plan an overseas event as well for Aboriginal veterans. This will be the first one ever for strictly Aboriginal ones.
Each month throughout the Year of the Veteran, high profile ceremonies and events will happen across Canada. Tomorrow, for example, Minister Guarnieri, together with Marcel Beaudry from the National Capital Commission in Ottawa, will unveil a commemorative ice wall in Confederation Park at the corner of Elgin Street and Laurier Avenue in Ottawa as part of Winterlude. The wall contains military artifacts from the First and Second World Wars, the Korean War and peacekeeping missions. I encourage all of you to take the opportunity to visit the wall and to tell others to make the visit.
Sunday May 8, VE Day, will be a big milestone in the Year of the Veteran. As events happen in the Netherlands, we will hold a major ceremony in Ottawa at the National War Memorial. Another significant event that day will be the official opening of the incredible new Canadian War Museum. In August, we will invite more than 125 former Hong Kong and other Far East prisoners-of-war from across Canada to Ottawa to mark VJ Day, the final chapter of the war, with a ceremony at the National War Memorial.
With respect to VE Day, there will be quite a number of veterans. We will probably take more than 100 veterans plus a carekeeper for each one to Holland with us. From what I am told, the Dutch and Netherlands visit is really quite something every time our veterans go there.
CBC has agreed tentatively to set up large screens at our War Museum that is being opened the same day. We cannot, of course, call on everybody to be in two places at once so what we will try to send pictures from Holland, especially since that is the Appledorn parade day, back to the crowds that are there opening the Canadian War Museum. We think it will be quite an effective show.
In the fall we will unveil the Seventh Book of Remembrance on Parliament Hill to commemorate Canadian Forces members who have died in service since the end of the Second World War.
There will also be countless other activities taking place across the country in cities large and small to mark this special year. Mr. Mercer, as I said, has a presentation, if you would like to see it, to tell more about these shortly.
[Translation]
Do not forget to visit the website for more information on the Year of the Veteran and to get ideas about what you can do to show your appreciation for veterans.
[English]
Service and program modernization: At our department every year, of course, is a year of the veteran. We have the dual responsibility to recognize the sacrifices of our Canadian veterans through our remembrance activities as well as through the services and benefits that we provide people on a daily basis. We serve an increasingly large group of clients with diverse needs. Traditional veterans and Canadian Forces veterans are two distinct client groups.
Far more servicemen and servicewomen are turning to us for help. Their numbers have increased 58 per cent in the past three years, and we anticipate having more than 58,000 CF clients by 2013. With the average age of releasing CF veterans at 36 years, these men and women have a long life ahead of them outside the military. It is our mandate to ensure that they spend those years as productive and healthy citizens.
[Translation]
Since it was first established, Veterans Affairs Canada has fulfilled its mandate to provide services to help the men and women who served in the Canadian Forces, including their dependents and survivors, get the care, treatments and assistance they need to reintegrate civilian life.
[English]
Today, during the Year of the Veteran, the Government of Canada is committed to the development of a new Veterans Charter. Last spring VAC and the Department of National Defence jointly announced plans to work together to improve the support services available to CF members as they leave the forces. These Canadians have earned it, and they deserve nothing less.
We are developing a suite of programs and services that will offer modern day veterans and their families a broader range of support as they transition back to civilian life. The current approach, which encourages disability, we believe, and dependency, does not put out CF veterans on the path to wellness and independence. Our goals are to ensure that all CF veterans have the maximum opportunity to integrate effectively into the workforce, for their benefit and that of their families. It is the right thing to do and I believe as well as the minister, this is the right time to do it.
We are here today to exchange views. Shortly, Mr. Mogan, Executive Director of Services and Program Modernization Task Force, can give a brief presentation about our progress to date, and options for a new suite of programs that have been refined through consultations and the work of the task force set up within the department.
We, of course, value your input to this important initiative and support for the approach we are taking. We will make a similar presentation at the Standing Committee on National Defence and Veterans Affairs, SCONDVA, later this month.
Here at Veterans Affairs we are dedicated to getting this right. We have started testing the broad program areas with still-serving members, veterans and their families to see how they feel about the proposed changes. This will give us a better understanding of how they feel about the proposals and programs, and how they would like to receive information on the services and benefits to which they may be entitled.
Part of this work, of course, also involves extensive consultations with the major veterans' organizations, DND and other involved groups. In fact, the minister recently met with all six major veterans' organizations whose leaders expressed very strong support for the new program proposals. These were very productive sessions and their leaders, as well as the chair of the VAC-CF Advisory Council were very pleased with the progress that we had achieved to date.
You had Dr. Peter Neary here, I think last May, who had outlined for you many of the recommendations that were made by the VAC-CF advisory group. We have used that group's recommendations as basically our guidepost through the changes that we want to make to the programs.
As you can imagine, the range and scope of change envisioned by this new Veterans Charter is considerable, and will be a significant legislative package. I think you will agree that the new programs we are working on will help veterans build a bright future with all the opportunities for successful re-establishment. The result will be a successful return to civilian life for CF veterans, and all Canadians will benefit from the health, leadership and experience of these individuals. What better way to celebrate the Year of the Veteran than transforming programs for Canada's modern day veterans.
Of course, it has to be emphasized that disability pensions and other services for our traditional veteran clients will not be altered. In fact, over the last two years these programs have been enhanced through regulatory and legislative amendments designed to meet their most urgent needs. As you know, our Veterans Independence Program is recognized as a model home care program at home and abroad. Today more than 19,000 veterans and primary caregivers, including surviving spouses, benefit from this program. We expect approximately 4,000 additional primary caregivers to benefit from the recent expansion of the program. You have my pledge that we will continue to evolve to meet the ongoing needs of our clients.
[Translation]
Once again I want to thank you on behalf of all veterans for the time and energy you devote to our cause. Our objective is to ensure that all our programs resist the test of time and preserve the legacy of our Canadian veterans.
[English]
Before I wrap up, I am pleased to present to you the Year of the Veteran video. We showed this at the kickoff on Parliament Hill. Some of you were there, but perhaps not all of you. This is one that we put together in a matter of weeks. Our communications people, I think, did quite a good job, which you will see. It is approximately three minutes. It has an English format first, and we thought we would do the English and then the French format for you.
So, Mr. Chairman, if I could show the video.
(Video presentation)
Mr. Stagg: Mr. Chairman, we hope to make this video available to movie theatres. We are talking to distributors now and also small-city and small-town television stations across the country in case they would like to use some of it for a filler. Of course it is Canadian content. We think it is a good project and well done.
The Chairman: We will be interested to hear how you succeed in that. Keep us advised, please.
I think the committee would wish to hear the two presentations in more detail. Everybody agreed? If we can move right to that we will have time for questions at the end. Please proceed.
Mr. Stagg: I would ask Mr. Mercer to give a brief presentation on the Year of the Veteran and some of the activities we have planned.
Mr. Robert Mercer, Executive Director, Public Affairs Branch, Veterans Affairs Canada: Mr. Chairman, distinguished senators, it is a pleasure to return before you this morning as a witness, and on this occasion to speak with you about the Year of the Veteran.
We have a great deal that we want to accomplish next year. By way of specific objectives, next year, first of all, we will remember the contribution and the sacrifice of all veterans. I emphasize the word ``all.''
We want to give a lot more understanding to Canadians about the Second World War because 2005, this year, is the sixtieth anniversary of the end of the Second World War. That is a particular theme and a particular focus for the Year of the Veteran.
We also want to engage our communities and our citizens all across this country in acts of remembrance this year, and to set the stage for future remembrance activities to take place at the level of all communities.
Our focus is on Canada's youth. That is evident in terms of the video that you just saw because one of the major contributors to that video was a young university student from Halifax.
We will also move forward in a gradual transition in 2005 to give a lot more emphasis and a lot more resourcing from our department to in-Canada commemorative events, and at the same time to recognize the very sacred responsibilities that we have with respect to our commitments overseas.
This is also a year to highlight for Canadians the significant sacrifice contribution, ongoing sacrifice and contribution of our present-day military, and of recently retired members of the military. Key words in terms of our work for this year as shown in the video, are to celebrate, to honour, to remember and to teach.
We have established, and have worked I guess for the last six to eight months to establish some very significant partnerships in delivering the events for the Year of the Veteran with the Federal Government, with a number of departments in the Federal Government, with our Provincial Governments, with the private sector, and with the voluntary sector across Canada as well.
On the international stage, in 2005, we will commemorate the sixtieth anniversary of the liberation of the Netherlands, as mentioned by the deputy minister earlier.
We have just returned from a significant event in Hong Kong. I was pleased to speak a few minutes ago with Senator Day who was privileged, I think, to be there with the Prime Minister, with our minister, with our deputy and others to commemorate the 60th anniversary of Hong Kong.
There are other significant events overseas. Celebrations and remembrance ceremonies will take place in major capital cities or major cities in the Allied countries around the world, including Russia, France, and the United Kingdom, as well as in Canada.
We have a travel subsidy that was announced in December to assist veterans who wish to travel to the Netherlands to celebrate the 60th anniversary with the people of Holland. This is a travel subsidy of $1,000 for veterans who wish to travel.
We are also committed this year to entering into a series of consultations with the Aboriginal veterans associations across Canada towards the possibility of an Aboriginal pilgrimage to First and Second World War battle sites in Europe, probably to take place in mid to late fall.
In terms of activities that are specifically headed by Veterans Affairs Canada, we are doing a significant rewrite of all our publications, of which there are many, on the subject of remembrance. Those publications will be rewritten with the youth as our audience so the language of the publication will be rewritten to focus on children who are in and around Grades 9 and 10 across the country. Those publications will be less written for historians and more written for the Canadian population as a whole.
We have a number of learning modules that will be introduced in 2005, particularly around Holland and Hong Kong, going into our schools across Canada, with appropriate teacher guides and lesson plans for teaching significant events regarding the anniversary of the end of the Second World War.
We have a project called ``Heroes Remember'' where, by the end of March, we hope to have on our Internet, first- hand commentary from about 1,000 veterans about their experience in the First World War, the Second World War and in Korea and post-Korea activities of the military as well. Many of those veterans are no longer with us. These will be one minute testimonials on different aspects of experience in terms of their contribution and sacrifice on behalf of Canada.
We have a significant partnership with the Boy and Girl Scouts of Canada that will see, in 2005, 150,000 Scouts say thank you to 150,000 veterans across this country. That, hopefully, will be extended to involve some work as well with the Girl Guides of Canada. We will meet with them next week, and hopefully be in a position to announce some involvement from the Girl Guides of Canada as well.
We will produce a number of Heritage Minutes. These are the very high quality one-minute productions from Historica that you have seen on CBC and elsewhere, this time to focus on World War I, World War II, Canada's contribution as well as the home front, and our CF involvements in peacekeeping post-Korea.
The deputy mentioned that at the National War Memorial in Ottawa we will host a national ceremony on Victory in Europe Day, VE Day on May 8. This we expect to be huge. It will be modelled after the November 11 Remembrance Day ceremonies. Similarly, in every capital city, province and territory across Canada similar ceremonies will be held, in joint cooperation with the Department of National Defence, Veterans Affairs Canada, community groups and provincial and territorial governments across the country.
Also the opening of the Canadian War Museum, which will take place on May 8, is a significant part of the Year of the Veteran activities.
On Victory in Japan Day, VJ Day, mid-August, we will commemorate Victory Day in the Far East. Rather than emphasize, this year, the transportation pilgrimage of a large number of Hong Kong veterans to Hong Kong we will offer every Hong Kong and Far East prisoner-of-war veteran an opportunity, at the expense of Canada, to come to Ottawa to commemorate VJ Day. Similar ceremonies will be held in Vancouver, Winnipeg and Quebec; the latter two cities in recognition of the home of the major regiments that contributed to Hong Kong, and Vancouver as the departure point.
In terms of the Canadian Forces, we are starting to release a number of information sheets on the involvement of our Canadian military hopefully to heighten awareness and understanding on the part of Canadians about their contribution and sacrifice.
We are entering into consultations as well with a number of veteran groups regarding the possibility of declaring a particular day as National Peacekeeping Day in Canada. Those consultations should begin shortly.
We are also going to be unveiling the ``Seventh Book of Remembrance'' which is a book of remembrance that will record the names of all those men and women who died in service of Canada post-Second World War to Korea and post-Korea. To date, I think we are looking at in excess of 1,200 names of people who have served our military and died in the service of Canada.
Globally, you will notice in different parts of the country, banners to depict the Year of the Veteran. The Year of the Veteran is the confirmed theme for Winterlude in Ottawa this year and for the Tulip Festival. You will notice as well through the good work of Canadian Heritage and also Veterans Affairs Canada, that the Year of the Veteran will be a significant theme for the Canada Day ceremonies that take place on July 1st all across the country.
We have the video that we mentioned, and the promotion of that video in different venues all across the country; lapel pins depicting the Year of the Veteran; banners that I mentioned; portable displays that will be used in all government departments and all offices of Veterans Affairs Canada talking about the Year of the Veteran; and a number of public service announcements. We have contracts in place with organizations like the Dominion Institute and others to hear from prominent Canadians who will speak to the press about their particular experience and their sense of the meaning of remembrance in Canada.
That, Mr. Chairman, is an overview of some of the more significant events and activities that we will undertake this year, the Year of the Veteran.
The Chairman: It sounds like an exciting program, and I am sure there will be questions. Perhaps we should go to the second presentation and then open the floor to questions on both subjects.
Mr. Darragh Mogan, Executive Director, Service and Program Modernization Task Force, Veterans Affairs Canada: Thank you, Mr. Chairman and senators. It is good to have you here. I hope my presentation will be short and relevant.
The Minister of Veterans Affairs' mandate has remained the same since the DVA Act was promulgated in 1944. That is the successful re-establishment in civilian life in the care and treatment of veterans and their dependants.
I think it has been fair to say that the challenge for Veterans Affairs has been to make the exercise of that mandate relevant for its various clientele. I think with the help of committees such as yours and the Gerontological Advisory Council. It is fair to say we have been quite relevant to the older veteran. Where there is room for improvement, and significant improvement, is the transition to civilian life for the modern veterans and their families.
Being guided by that, I think the model that the Gerontological Advisory Council, and indeed the report ``Raising the Bar,'' presented to us about combining the aspirations of veterans' groups and the evidence together to make changes, was a significant precedent.
Mr. Stagg, the deputy minister, mentioned the VAC-CF Advisory Council. They were formed much along the same lines as the Gerontological Advisory Council, to give advice and guidance on the problems confronting the modern Canadian Forces veterans and their families, and the various solutions or options that we might consider. They did that. They released a report after two years of studies last March. The recommendations that they put forward will form the basis of options that I think will make their way to government.
In terms of defining the problem, I think it is fair to say that the nature of modern service is different and the effects of individuals who serve in the Canadian Forces now is different from 60 years ago, but the transition is still a major challenge for individuals. We find individuals comeback after four and five tours of duties in special duty areas, or even service in Canada, with a significant presence of chronic pain, post-traumatic stress disorder at various degrees more than the civilian population, and with family challenges. It is no surprise when individuals are away from home as often as they are and moving about Canada in special duties areas as often as these people do, that these would occur. Unfortunately, even though these programs have developed very well for the traditional veteran, the only response Veterans Affairs has, according to the VAC-CF Advisory Council, and it is obvious to us as well, is the pension program. The only response, therefore, that we can really give, other than treatment of a disability, is to pension someone and keep pensioning them, notwithstanding the fact that they may not be making a successful transition to civilian life.
With that in mind, and with the pressure to respond differently than we have, I think it is fair to characterize where we are is to go back to the future and have a look. This is where the VAC-CF Advisory Council, headed by Dr. Neary, suggested we go, to look at what happened back in 1946 and 1953 and make a relevant modern response to that.
It is fair to say that too many of the pensioned Canadian Forces veterans are not making a successful transition to civilian life, nor are their families. It is fair to say also that the strong finding of the VAC-CF Advisory Council was that the services individuals need to make the transition are very fragmented. Six, seven or eight service suppliers with different objectives and mandates are involved with an individual who is not well integrated into society in the first place.
I think, to put a fine point on it, because we have used the pension program for purposes other than what it was intended, it really encourages unwellness and disability in order to increase an income stream, because that is the only response we can give. If an individual has a problem, to be quite crude, we end up pensioning them or, in effect, ignoring it. We have made the disability pension program a gateway to any other services that we have. In effect, if you do not have a disability pension, you do not have a problem.
On the one hand, our expenses in the pension program are rising rapidly, and so equally are the unmet needs of individuals and families making transition to civilian life.
What the VAC-CF Advisory Council, which is a combination of the best and brightest academics in the country in this field, and the six major veterans' organizations who have a stake in this, have suggested in the report that Professor Neary released last March was to focus on wellness; to have an integrated one-stop shopping approach in the case management; and focus on rehabilitation, supporting individuals when they had economic losses as a result of a service related re-establishment need, provide one-time disability awards that deal with the compensation requirement for individuals with disabilities, provide comprehensive health benefits to veterans in need and their families, and most — a very important feature for all veterans — be there for them to help them get a job in civilian life.
The program objectives that we talked about here, secure and adequate income for individuals who do not have it: We do not want to be in the position of using the pension program to provide an income stream that it was never intended to provide.
Optical, physical, mental and social functioning: This objective includes participation in the civilian workforce, or applying the leadership skills that they have learned in the military and in the civilian milieu, access to required health services for family members and children who need it as a result of service in a safe and supportive physical and social environment.
Case management is very important. It is hard to describe because it is not a benefit or a service. It is not a benefit you pay for, but the coordination of service, we are finding out from focus groups, from research, from the VAC-CF Advisory Council, is key to a successful transition to civilian life. These individuals who stepped out of civilian life are not expert at navigating our elaborate system.
The rehabilitation program essentially takes a person who has a service-related re-establishment need, as much as possible, to the point of completely restoring their capacity. However, it is multi-dimensional. There is psycho-social. You have to have the right mindset to bring yourself back to be a fully functioning individual. You have to have the vocation rehabilitation that you need, and of course you need medical stability. The VAC-CF Advisory Council recommended we follow all three components.
The economic loss program: While a person is committing to re-establish himself through a rehabilitation program, we cannot have him scrounging for money. Nor should we use the pension program as a source of income support during that period. What has been recommended by VAC-CFAC is that we consider income supplementation and support during the period of rehabilitation and after the period of rehabilitation, if an individual for service-related reasons cannot be rehabilitated to the point of earning their own or their families' income.
Disability award program: What do we do with that? If the VAC-CF Advisory Council is correct, and if the option they have proposed is accurate, we want to convert that from an incentive to unwellness to an incentive to wellness. We do that by replacing the continuous monthly income and the incentive to increase that with more and more focus on the unwellness or the illness aspects of the disability, with supporting them and their families through rehabilitation; to go through a vocational training program, and to come back to society as the leaders they were when they left society, or potentially so. I think the recommendation was very strong that we deal with the disability once; keep open the option if the disability or others appear that you deal with that when it comes up, but focus on wellness. This is what happened in 1946 and 1953, and the recommendation was that we go back to the future.
A health benefit program is being proposed by the VAC-CFAC, or rather that we offer it to individuals or their families who are disadvantaged in the health services themselves; those who are medically released and those who have a service-related re-establishment need. The recommendation of the VAC-CF Advisory Council is that we consider providing health benefits that are now provided to public servants, on the basis of those with the greatest needs starting with, as I mentioned before, individuals and their families who are medically released.
It is important, by the way, to stress here in dealing with individuals who suffer from operational stress injuries or post-traumatic stress disorder, we cannot separate the appearance of the disability in an individual who has it, from family members and the children who encounter it. It gives flexibility in that area.
There is a strong push on family support, that we should do more for families. The minister's mandate talks about families. There is very little we can do now. In the slide presentation I indicate the number of areas where the VAC-CF Advisory Council recommended options for us, and it is quite comprehensive. It will allow us to discharge, if we follow these, the minister's mandate with regard to the re-establishment of families in civilian life.
Recognition and remembrance: I think what Mr. Mercer presented to you would resonate very well with the VAC- CF Advisory Council. It also recommends specific consideration to funeral and burial services for Canadian Forces members beyond what we can offer now. That is certainly an option that will be considered.
With regards to the next steps, we propose to continue with stakeholders to develop the program proposals to a more fulsome extent than they are at the moment. We also propose to develop a communications strategy so people understand what it is we propose to do, and to proceed with the standard approval process that you probably know better than I do.
Mr. Stagg: Senator, Mr. Chair, you asked for a very brief response on what we did with ``Raising the Bar'' and I would agree. ``Raising the Bar'' happened prior to my tenure. One of my first briefings was how we responded to that report. As Senator Meighen has said, we responded to it very favourably. We increased staff levels in areas where they were recommended. We provided training opportunities for people to upgrade skills so they could better deal with people in long-term care situations and dementia.
As you know, we have worked very hard on food quality, and there were a number of institutions where there was a difficulty. We have worked well with veterans' organizations, groups and committees in those facilities to improve the food quality. We have put money into this. We have developed a specialized care situation where it was needed. For instance, we provided about $700,000 to develop and operate a Veterans Health Centre at The Lodge at Broadmead. We have done work at Sunnybrook and at the Women's College Health Sciences Centre. We have established $2.5- million funding for a behavioural care unit which was badly in need, I think, and which the committee pointed out to us. We have upgraded facilities right across the country.
One of the most important recommendations is developing national standards to measure those institutions against. We have done that. We have accepted a Canadian set of standards. There are 10 standards that we measure our performance against. Happily, we have an ex-service organization, the Royal Canadian Legion, involved with us basically to monitor our behaviour against those standards. The reports that we have gotten from them have been quite good.
In term of our overseas veterans and the special or long-term care for them, the report dealt quite a bit with this area. In fact, as you know, we have established a pilot project and now have it installed, basically, in our basic programming to provide services to veterans to keep them in their homes rather than having them go to long-term care facilities. Veterans have appreciated that. A lot of that, if not all of it, came out of the report that Senator Johnstone helped author, and we thank him for it. We have looked at it and we have responded positively. I do not know which recommendations we did not cover. No one can seem to remember that, but we certainly did respond positively. It was a wonderful opportunity for us to get that kind of advice and to respond positively to it.
The Chairman: There may have been some that were within strictly provincial jurisdiction as well that you were unable to act on.
Mr. Stagg: Yes.
The Chairman: Thank you, deputy. Thank you, Mr. Mogan and Mr. Mercer.
Mr. Archibald Johnstone, former Senator: May I ask one question?
The Chairman: Certainly.
Mr. Johnstone: I may have missed this, but a question I think has been asked: How many or what percentage of the 68 recommendations have been implemented? Do you have that?
Mr. Mogan: I would just say that well over 90 per cent have been actioned. Some of them are continuously being addressed because you have made recommendations that we should continually monitor a care situation, so we are obviously doing that. I would say well over 90 per cent, quite safely. There are a few, as Senator Meighen has mentioned, that are within provincial jurisdiction. We are addressing all of them, but we can confidently state that over 90 per cent of them are well in hand. As the deputy indicated, it is a very important report for us to respond to.
The Chairman: Would you be able to confirm that at your convenience with just a short note?
Mr. Mogan: We will do that, senator.
Senator Day: Mr. Deputy Minister, lady and gentlemen, thank you all very much for allowing us to come to your place. I do not know if we are going to have a chance to tour your facilities on this particular trip, but we have in the past and we very much enjoyed meeting with all your staff. We very much, as well, appreciate the work that you are doing.
The briefing this morning was very comprehensive. I had a number of questions that had arisen with respect to both the Year of the Veteran and your modernization, and I think a lot of them have been answered. A lot of these questions are questions of clarification.
My first question: I received a note from Mr. Ferguson that clarified, because we had two announcements with respect to the Veterans Independence Program, VIP, it got a little bit confusing, I think, from the public's point of view. In this instance, I consider myself one of the public.
I just want to confirm that if there was a surviving spouse of a veteran and the veteran had not been on VIP, the program was in existence when he died after 1995 or so, and the spouse was looking after that veteran but had never applied for the VIP, would she not be eligible to apply for VIP for herself? Assume that the veteran is a man in this instance and she looked after him okay on her own and did not need any help, but now she is finding that she needs a little bit of help to maintain her lifestyle and stay in the home.
Mr. Stagg: That is right, Senator Day. What we did in our last iteration on this program is to include virtually every caregiver for every veteran who had been on the program, but we did not extend the program to those spouses or primary caregivers whose veteran, whose partner essentially, had not been on the program.
Senator Day: Even though, if you look at the equities, she might have been working hard to do all this work and care for him and, therefore, was not properly looking after herself, and is certainly not generating any other income for herself outside of the home because of the obligations she had?
The take-up on the new announcement — I think the last one that extended it back was in November of 2004, I think you said, Mr. Deputy Minister — was about 4,000 more, you thought? Up until now, have you any indications as to whether they are going to reach that? Is it likely to happen that you are going to have 4,000, or is 4,000 an eligible number?
Mr. Stagg: I think 4,000 was our estimate, senator, and we are monitoring the number of people coming forward. We are not to that amount yet, as I understand it. We can give you further specifics on that following this meeting today.
Senator Day: We would appreciate that, if you could monitor that for us and just let us know how it is going and what is happening.
Mr. Stagg: Yes, we will.
Senator Day: That way we can estimate what the additional cost is going to be. If the take-up was not quite as much as you had anticipated, there may be other equitable situations we can start advocating for.
Mr. Stagg: We will certainly provide you with that information.
Senator Day: Thank you. Mr. Deputy Minister, could you help me with the relationship between the Canadian Forces and Veterans Affairs Canada in relation to the new services that you are offering to Armed Forces personnel? You have Veterans Affairs personnel on a number of bases across the country now who are under your authority?
Mr. Stagg: Yes, we do, senator. That program was started a while ago as a pilot project. It was so well received both by the base personnel and by the Canadian Forces generally that we now have people, I think, on every base, or at least heading towards that; yes, 17 bases now. How that fits with the new programming is that practitioners tell us that the earlier you diagnose and deal with problems for people who are coming out or emerging from the forces, the more success that you are likely to have in a whole variety of afflictions.
We are trying to determine right from the very beginning any problems that people are having, and then be able to casework that when the individual emerges from the service. In fact, this fits very well with our case management approach that we hope to establish with the new programming and the modernization programming.
Senator Day: Would the caseworker be at the location where the client is located, or would the caseworker be here and dealing from a corresponding and telephone point of view?
Mr. Stagg: No, the caseworker, in most cases, would be located near where the veteran would emerge from the forces. Someone may, for instance, be in Victoria, but migrate to near Edmonton. We would have a caseworker essentially deal with that individual, but the caseworker in Edmonton would know the history and background of the releasing veteran from our people who are serving on the base, and had done the interview with the individual in Victoria.
Senator Day: That would be the same type of caseworker that exists now for the traditional veteran of World War I, World War II or the Korean conflict?
Mr. Stagg: Yes.
Senator Day: That kind of caseworker?
Mr. Brian Ferguson, Assistant Deputy Minister, Veterans Services Branch, Veterans Affairs Canada: They will be the same case workers and they will have potentially a split workload where they do both traditional and Canadian Forces, so it is the same caseworker, senator.
I might add, Deputy, that every single Canadian Forces member who leaves the forces henceforth will receive an exit interview so that this information the deputy had mentioned can be put into our system.
Senator Day: Thank you for that.
Let us assume that there is an injured Armed Forces person who is getting some attention from your person at the location on the base. Can I draw an analogy to the private sector of insurance; short-term disability and long-term disability? If the person is not able to work but is still in the Armed Forces, for a period of time, to see whether that person is going to be able to come back before receiving an honourable discharge, does the person get a pension, or only guidance from Veterans Affairs Canada?
Mr. Mogan: Yes, senator, I think that if an individual has an established disability that is recognized by the Canadian Forces, and most of them are, then they can be pensioned now and will be in the future, for that disability.
We have had a Joint Steering Committee with the Department of National Defence for the last five years, to try to do as much as possible to cooperate in the management and support of individuals when they are in the military and on their way out, so a lot of the foundation for modernizing our programs exists already. Mr. Ferguson has mentioned one in terms of the transition interview. You have handed out another. How early do you start? Mr. Stagg has suggested that the earlier you start helping individuals either re-establish themselves in the military or in civilian life, the less problematic it will be. We have taken, I think, a number of steps over the last three or four years that will make the modernization of our support much more likely to be successful.
Disabled individuals can get all the services that the Department of National Defence can offer for individuals in uniform, and a guarantee of support when they leave in a cooperative, as that were, hand-holding method between the Department of National Defence and Veterans Affairs Canada.
Senator Day: That individual would not receive any financial compensation, a pension, from Veterans Affairs Canada at the same time as the individual receives full pay from the Armed Forces?
Mr. Mogan: Yes, they have a legal entitlement now, as any other individual does in Canada, whether they work in the RCMP, the public service or the private sector. If they have an established disability, it is compensable. In other words, you know what it is and you know how much disability is there. They can receive that pension whether they are in service or out of service.
The argument, and there has been a debate on that, as you are probably aware —
Senator Day: Yes, that is why I am asking.
Mr. Mogan: Indeed. The disadvantage that the military had is because they were at a high level of risk and in uniform, they were the only Canadians that could not get their service disability pension. Every other Canadian in a lower risk environment could get it. That is the counter-pressure to the one that is saying, in effect, you are giving people a pay supplement to do a job that others are paid less at.
Senator Day: In your presentation you talked about providing financial support, financial compensation separate and apart from a disability pension for those unable to work, both short and long-term. Is that something you have implemented or something you are planning and thinking about?
Mr. Mogan: That is something the VAC-CF Advisory Council recommends we do, building on the model of the Service Income Security Insurance Plan, SISIP, and they mentioned SISIP in there which is the long-term disability. Building on their model, but expanding it to cover medical and psycho-social rehabilitation, and lengthening the time that vocational rehabilitation would be offered. That is what is recommended, so the answer is yes.
Senator Day: Yes, it has been implemented?
Mr. Mogan: No. It is proposed to separate the income support component, which is now sort of taken care of but not adequately in the pension program, and put it into an Income Economic Loss Earnings Replacement Program during the period of time in which individuals undergo rehabilitation. That is a proposal. It is there now in SISIP. The proposal is that we expand that to cover a broader range of requirements.
Senator Day: Is it conceivable that a retired Armed Forces person who was under some disability at the time of honourable discharge could receive a pension for service, term of service, a pension for disability and something from Veterans Affairs for adjustment under this program you have talked about?
Mr. Mogan: It is conceivable. I think VAC-CFAC is proposing a model that guarantees individuals going through the rehabilitation program that they never have less than 75 per cent of their pre-release earnings; not more than, but never less than. When the government considers this, that model probably will be put forward because it is an established industry standard in terms of long-term disability.
Senator Day: Do you anticipate, Mr. Deputy Minister, that legislation will be necessary to implement some of these modernization programs?
Mr. Stagg: We know that legislation will be required to do that, and I think the previous minister had promised such legislation by Christmas, if you recall. We found that it was probably better to take a bit of time and get this right rather than to get it fast. We have worked now with the veterans' organizations over the last several months, and fairly soon I think, we will feel reasonably confident to get it into a direct legislative form and have it introduced. To date, we are still working with ex-service organizations. As I mentioned, we are now trying some ideas out with still-serving members to see how they react to the programs as well.
Senator Day: Fine. I just have one other question at this stage, and that is to the deputy minister as well. It is with respect to the Year of the Veteran. Do you anticipate a separate special appropriation for your activities for the Year of the Veteran that we will be seeing? We are into budget time now. Should we look for a special appropriation for that?
Mr. Stagg: Yes, in fact, we received some of that appropriation this year to begin activities, and there is an appropriation for next year that we have already been assured of, for the Year of the Veteran in particular.
Senator Day: You have been assured that it would be requested at Parliament?
Mr. Stagg: Yes.
Senator Day: Yes?
Mr. Stagg: Yes.
Senator Day: That is what I thought you meant.
Mr. Stagg: It is a good point now, senator.
Senator Atkins: I think you have done a terrific job in planning for the Year of the Veteran. I was delighted to hear that you were covering the expenses of Hong Kong veterans to go to Ottawa.
I ask you, when you offered the $1,000 for veterans to go to Normandy, how many took up your offer? Do you know that?
Mr. Ferguson: For D-Day in Normandy, less than 300. There is more interest and more take-up with respect to the 60th anniversary of Italy.
Senator Atkins: Well, that is the question I have. How do you determine the $1,000? I think it is a little discriminatory in the sense that anybody who is a veteran and who is living on a pension and low income, $1,000 will hardly get you to Holland. It just seems to me that it could have been a higher offer to make it possible for some veterans who otherwise could not afford to go.
Mr. Stagg: Senators, there are some mitigating factors around Holland, in particular, as you probably realize. One is that the Dutch have offered to take in quite a number of our veterans in terms of providing accommodations, transportation, meals, et cetera. It will be a little easier on many of the veterans who will visit Holland, in part because of the very kind and generous approach by the Dutch themselves.
In addition, I think the number now is approximately 128 veterans. This has almost doubled what we have ever taken before in a pilgrimage. We are including a caregiver so the contingent probably will be almost triple that, because you have 128 veterans plus 128 caregivers plus the conducting officers and the military and the medical care people, et cetera.
There are some mitigating factors around, I think, Holland that will probably boost the numbers considerably and make it more affordable for many veterans, over and above the other trips.
Senator Atkins: I am glad to hear that because my suspicion is that because of the celebrations, as you know when major events like this take place, the tourist industry tends to up the price of accommodation and other services at that moment in time. I may be wrong, but I just do not think $1,000 is going to make that attractive to certain demographic groups of veterans. I will just leave that comment with you.
My next question has to do with something I know that you have now heard about and this is Clifton Leonard Wenzel and his plight. It just seems unbelievable to me that he, who has a Distinguished Flying Cross, DFC, and other medals, he was in the regular service for 20 years and then he moves to the reserve and he is disqualified because it is not in the public interest. Where is our compassion? Where is our understanding? How could we treat an individual such as that in this way?
Mr. Stagg: Senator, I did read all the materials that were sent to me. I did get materials on the situation or the case. The problem we have, of course, is it is not within our jurisdiction. It is a question of superannuation, I believe, or an annuity that is the determination, essentially, of the Department of National Defence. We neither have the authority nor any of the policies around this to deal with it ourselves. It is really the Department of National Defence. As you are aware, when you saw the materials, there have been a number of representations, I think to —
Senator Atkins: To the Department of National Defence, but none before to Veterans Affairs Canada.
Mr. Stagg: No.
Senator Atkins: Why not?
Mr. Stagg: As I understand it, it is within the jurisdiction of DND to decide on this particular case. I cannot go into any of the details of the case myself, but as I understand it, the issues you raise are within the purview of the Department of National Defence and not ours.
Senator Atkins: Did he do something wrong?
Mr. Stagg: Sorry?
Senator Atkins: Has he done something wrong?
Mr. Stagg: I cannot comment on the individual case, senator, but again, what he is requesting, or what he appears to be requesting, is not again within the purview of Veterans Affairs. It is a determination of DND, not us.
Senator Atkins: He is looking for a pension, he is 82 years of age and he has not had any compensation or pension.
Mr. Ferguson: Senator, if I may, we are not at liberty to discuss any individual case, but I can speak generally. DND actually provides pensions to individuals who retire from the forces. It is different than a Veterans Affairs pension which is a pension for injury. Our understanding is that this is the case where a pension on retirement is being questioned so it is a DND issue and it is nothing that we have any mandate to get involved with. That is the nub of the issue.
Otherwise, we referred to the wrong department in a sense.
The Chairman: We could certainly pursue it with DND, if not on the floor of the Senate.
Senator Atkins: Except that two ministers from DND have refused his request. Here is someone who has served in the military, both on a regular service and reserve full-time for over 35 years, and he has a DFC and other medals. Where is our compassion? I do not understand it. Have you any suggestions on how we can get to DND?
The Chairman: I think we know how to do that as well as anybody. It appears to be clarified that Veterans Affairs does not have any authority or any jurisdiction in this case in terms of a pension for retirement and, therefore, it has to come from DND. I suspect that most members of this committee would like to join with you in pursuing the matter with DND. Speaking for myself, I would be glad to do it. Let us pursue it when we return to Ottawa.
Senator Atkins: I have another compassionate case. I am sorry to bring these to you. This is an example of someone who has been in the permanent reserve for many years. He is now in the Sunnybrook Hospital. I guess there are two questions. Number one, would someone who is on permanent reserve get a pension from the military? Number two, have they got any opportunities to be looked after through Veterans Affairs?
Mr. Ferguson: I would not want to comment too much on the military pension side, given, particularly, the previous case you talked about, senator but anyone who has served in the military, including the reserves, who is injured in the service of Canada is entitled to Veterans Affairs support, services and pension. Is that the question?
Senator Atkins: In his circumstances, after he had been released from the military reserves, he had several strokes. It says here he needs long-term care and is currently in Sunnybrook Hospital. He hopes that he can be considered eligible for K section at Sunnybrook. Can I give this to you?
Mr. Ferguson: Yes, please. I will take that case, senator, and look into it right away.
Senator Atkins: Thank you very much. I appreciate it.
Senator Cordy: The Year of Veteran is a wonderful idea because sometimes I think that the public tends to forget what the veterans have done for our country.
I have a couple of questions on the Year of the Veteran. What is a remembrance champion? Is that somebody speaking out on behalf of veterans — public service figures and public figures — or is it, in fact, veterans who will speak out?
Mr. Mercer: I suppose it could be one or the other, but I think the intent here was to have prominent Canadians express their feelings about remembrance to the media, and to see coverage of their particular point of view. It could be a veteran, as well.
Senator Cordy: I see that you will have Heritage Minutes on peacekeepers and also Peacekeeping Day. We had some public town hall meetings and there seems to be a discrepancy in what the general public thinks of a peacekeeper. In fact, what I hear from, not all but some, people is that they think a peacekeeper can just go to a country and keep peace, when in fact we are actually peacemakers, and you have to be trained as a combat-ready person to make and keep peace. You are not usually going into a peaceful country. You are usually going into a war-torn country to keep or to make peace. Will that be part of your public information when you talk about peacekeeping on these minutes? I think what Canadians sometime see is a peacekeeper strolling down the street of a town and they do not actually see the dangers that our peacekeepers face every day.
Mr. Stagg: I do not think, senator, a historic minute will clear up all the clarifications or make all the clarifications it needs to.
One of the reasons, I think, behind us having to look at program modernization now is that, in fact, not only are they peacekeepers, they are peace-enforcers. Increasingly, we put our peacekeepers at considerable risk in countries. I just have to mention Afghanistan, for one. I think the results of that are that we are getting an awful lot of people, not just at risk, but hurt, when they come out of the service and need the kind of modern programs that we are proposing.
My sense is that if there is a consensus around the ex-service organizations and others who would like a Peacekeeping Day declared at least at the federal level, there will be lots of information around it and people might get a much better appreciation of just what our people do abroad in peacekeeping exercises.
Senator Cordy: The proposal for the new veterans' charter, and we are looking at the family support here, is to have an exit interview with the CF member who is leaving. How much information will be given to family members as to what is available to them?
Mr. Stagg: We would like to have as much clear, straightforward information as we possibly can as individuals leave the service so they know full well what services are available to them. We hope that through the dialogue between the person doing an exit interview and the person on the other side of the table individuals will have an understanding of not just what is available, but what they may need in the first short while once they exit the services.
Senator Cordy: It says here, ``vocational benefits and job placement when veteran cannot participate.'' What do you mean, ``when veterans cannot participate?''
Mr. Stagg: We hope to have a job placement service open and available to every single person who leaves the service, not just people who might be hurt and need some rehabilitation and vocational training, but virtually everyone leaving the service. If they choose to work, the service would help them find a job and a vocation once they get out.
Mr. Mogan: I think, with regard to the families, the VAC-CF Advisory Council, and indeed the research, has said is that if are trying to assist a veteran to re-establish and that individual cannot do it, for whatever reason, because of the period of service, that, by default, should go to the family member. That is what VAC-CFAC is proposing, and I think that is what we will propose. That would be the nature for all the benefits that are offered to the veteran. If the veteran cannot take it, it will be available to the spouse because someone has to make the successful re-establishment so that is a pretty strong commitment that we are going to propose.
Senator Cordy: That is a strong commitment, yes.
Senator Forrestall: Very briefly, many Canadians are to be thanked for their efforts over the years on behalf of veterans. In front of us, we have many who fall into that category, but you will permit me to say that ranging slightly above the Canadian average are two Prince Edward Islanders. I refer to Senator Orville Phillips and Senator Archie Johnstone for the work they did, but all the more for the effort and time it took for them to put those recommendations in place. It is not unrecognized.
I am very intrigued about the day commemorating peacekeepers. For 15, 25 years now, the thought has been in the back of my mind and I have always dismissed it as being much too early for this; history has to develop and we move towards it. I think enough history has gone by. I am concerned that the Government of Canada take this action, led by the Department of Veterans Affairs, the Department of National Defence or by the Prime Minister himself. It would be a recognition, on behalf of all Canadians, of the tremendous contribution people have put in place from Cyprus to Afghanistan.
I had the privilege over the last 25 or 30 years of, at one point, visiting virtually every Canadian presence around the world so I have some slight idea.
I want simply to ask you to make sure it is the Department of Veterans Affairs and not any one individual who takes any congratulations or any honours from this move. Let it be a genuine, heartfelt thanks for every living Canadian.
Will we hear this year a full blossom explanation of the new veteran? We are getting nibbles here and enticements there. How old is he? How old are they? What is the nature of their ailments? We are having them much longer on our list and that is only right and just. Will we hear before the year is out a good definition of the new veteran, and will it include, for those veterans who through no action, voluntary or otherwise, of their own, did not engage in an active war zone, and they were denied the full benefits of what we understand to be veterans; veterans who have served in an arena of war, loosely translated? I hope some thought will be given to that. Can somebody tell me whether we will hear about the new veteran this year?
Mr. Stagg: I think the situation now, senator, and we provided an official definition, I think, in writing last time, to Senator Day, is that we have now quite a comprehensive definition of what a veteran is for recognition purposes, but not necessarily a definition for entitlement. The two are different. I think that is perhaps what you are getting at, senator. When we establish the modernization program, we will have to be clear as to who is eligible to participate in that program. By virtue of deduction, you may end up getting something closer to what you are looking for in terms of a definition of a modern veteran. We certainly will have to make it clear who can participate in the benefits, and they have to be open to ``modern veterans,'' all CF veterans. Perhaps that might go some way towards your definition, or what you are looking for in a definition.
Senator Forrestall: I wish we had another hour or two to go through this because there are many anomalies. You have heard two or three of them this morning.
Thank you very much. It is a pleasure to be here and have somebody work with you and for you. We appreciate what you are doing.
Mr. Stagg: Thank you.
The Chairman: Just to add to that, it has always escaped my understanding as to why anybody who has served in, and has been honourably discharged from, the Canadian Forces is not entitled to the same thing as everybody else. As Senator Forrestall says, there certainly have been well documented cases of people who were not in a war zone through no fault of their own, because they were ordered to stay, for example, in Halifax. It defies imagination why they would not be entitled to access Veterans Affairs facilities the same way as somebody who served overseas. That is a discussion for another day, I guess, and perhaps we can rectify that anomaly when we deal with the modern veteran; with apologies for that small editorial comment.
Senator Downe: I would like to welcome you and your committee to Charlottetown. As you well know, it is the headquarters of Veterans Affairs Canada, which remains today the only national headquarters located outside the national capital region. That pertains to my question. I have a concern about the department. I understand last year you had in the area, Deputy, of 1,200 employees and a yearly payroll of $68 million, which is very important to the economy of this part of Canada. What are your projections over the next few years for the number of employees on the payroll?
Mr. Stagg: I do not foresee any large change in the payroll or the number of people we would employ here. There is no forecast for any significant addition or diminution of that number. I see it being reasonably steady for the foreseeable future, in the next few years certainly.
Senator Downe: My optimistic hope is that it would go up dramatically, and my worry is that it would go down dramatically, so you give me some comfort with your answer.
The second question I had relates to a clarification. As I understood from your presentation, the department is responsible for memorials overseas but not in Canada. Is that correct?
Mr. Mercer: We have in Canada some responsibility with respect to memorials such as the National War Memorial in Ottawa. National memorials are our responsibility as well as international memorials.
Senator Downe: The memorials to the veterans in almost every community in Canada, those are the responsibility of which Department, or are they the responsibility of the local community?
Mr. Stagg: They are the responsibility of the local communities. I exempt from those, of course, the regimental memorials across Canada that are the responsibility of regiments, as an example.
Senator Downe: There has been concern expressed to me by a number of people that the ongoing maintenance costs of these memorials is becoming very difficult for community groups to maintain. Is there any consideration given to the department extending what they do overseas to all the memorials in Canada on a cost-shared basis?
Mr. Stagg: I think the minister has already made a statement about her having some measure of sympathy for assisting communities. It is just a matter of finding a way of doing that effectively and getting some budget to do it. I know for a fact that the minister has expressed publicly that she is sympathetic to working with communities to help restore some of these monuments. You are right, senator. Some of them are not in good shape and the communities themselves may not have the full wherewithal to put them back together again or fix them.
Senator Downe: The last question, Chair, it is a very short one. What involvement, if any, does Veterans Affairs have with the new Canadian War Museum in Ottawa?
Mr. Stagg: We are a sister organization within the federal realm, but it is an arm's length and independent organization run by a board. It is not in itself a department. It is run under Heritage Canada but it is run under the museum's board. I think that is what it is called.
Senator Downe: Do you have representation on that board?
Mr. Mercer: As one example, I sit on the advisory council to the war museum for the creation of the new war museum. We have a lot of joint projects with the Canadian War Museum as it touches on the area of remembrance. One of the more significant, of course, in 2005 is the official opening of the Canadian War Museum. It is something we are helping them with. We also have a lot of joint ventures on the side of educating children about the contribution and sacrifice of veterans.
Senator Banks: I may be the only person here who does not know this, and I do not know which of you gentlemen would like to answer. I would like you to tell me the specific definition of a traditional veteran as opposed to, I guess, everybody else.
The second question is semi-related to that. You were talking about modernization and the fact that obviously, you need programs which deal differently with people who have more recently become veterans. That is to say, they are not serving members anymore. In respect of what the chair has asked, I hope you can assure us that it does not mean that a surviving spouse, for example, or a surviving veteran who would be defined as a traditional veteran, in similar circumstances, would be given less consideration, less treatment or less of anything in any way that would have to do with your department.
The third question relates to what you said about an Aboriginal contingent. I hope you can make me feel better about that. We did not ever have any segregated army units, air force units, or navy units. There were Aboriginal members in many, if not all, regiments. I am wondering if there are Aboriginal veterans who are going on May 8 to Europe — I certainly hope so — and what the rationale is for a separate Aboriginal delegation later, not that I resent or object to that. Well, maybe I do. I am wondering about the distinction. I mean, they were soldiers. Why are we separating them out now? We did not separate them out then. If we separated them then, I stand to be corrected. I did not know that. In any case, I ask the question.
Mr. Stagg: Let me try and take a swing at some of these. I will be corrected by my colleagues here if I get too far off the rails. As I understand it, we use the term traditional veterans loosely for those who participated in the First and Second World War and the Korean War. I do not know whether that is a working definition, but it certainly is the way in which I have seen it, and the way in which we tend to deal in terms of entitlement.
In answer to the second question, the modernization work that we are doing, the new programs we will introduce, will have absolutely no impact on those who now receive pensions and benefits from us. We are not robbing Peter to pay Paul in this instance. We have provided assurances to the National Council of Veteran Associations in Canada, NCVA, and other organizations who have a great deal of concern about traditional veterans that we are not doing that. We have given them every assurance that the modernization programs will not have an impact on their benefits.
Senator Banks: If it is a rising tide, will it raise all boats?
Mr. Stagg: Sorry?
Senator Banks: It is a corny analogy I guess, but if there are new programs that treat veterans ``better,'' to use the colloquial term, will the traditional veterans also be treated better if they are in the same circumstances? I am thinking of a veteran, for example, who was in Korea and also in Cyprus. There are some.
Mr. Stagg: They will be eligible for our support programs, medical programs and wellness programs if they have a pension. We are not touching the pension. We are not changing the pension scheme for them. In terms of the wellness and support programs, yes, if they have a demonstrated need for those programs, they would be eligible for them. At least, that is the current thinking. Again, that is our proposal at this point.
In terms of the Aboriginal contingent, senator, again, I do not know whether they had been treated separately during the services. I think they were, perhaps, somewhere during the First World War, but I am not sure after that. There are quite a number of organizations that represent Aboriginal individuals across the country. I think we have probably lost count recently. Many of them came to us and said that for many of their cultures, it is important to return to an area where their fellows were killed, lost their lives. There are ceremonies they would like to perform that are distinct to many of the Aboriginal cultures across the country. They have asked us if we would assist them in doing that. We said that we would look at that. We would consult with the Aboriginal veterans' community at large to see if we could get a trip or a pilgrimage for Aboriginals so they could carry out some of these culturally related activities if they would like to do so. That is really the source of it, and the long and the short of it. We do not have anything established or put together. It is not final yet, but we said that we would consult, we would talk to them, and see what we could do to assist.
Senator Banks: Do they not wish to go on May 8?
Mr. Stagg: No, in fact, in every one of our pilgrimages, we have Aboriginals attend formally as part of the Aboriginal veterans associations in the country. Also, Aboriginal veterans who are not part of those associations and who are part of the regiment have participated. We also make sure that separate individual Aboriginal reps go along on our pilgrimages as well.
The Chairman: I am afraid it is 15 or 18 minutes past our allotted time, so we will have to wrap this up. May I abuse the privilege of the chair to ask one question and make one supportive editorial comment. The question is: What is the status of the Juno Beach Centre museum right now? Is it stand-alone, or do you have any responsibility, authority, or whatever?
Mr. Stagg: One of our people sits on the board, as I understand. Is it you, Mr. Mercer, that sits on the board?
Mr. Mercer: That is correct, ex-officio.
Mr. Stagg: We have provided additional cash. I believe it is $1.5 million over two years, Mr. Mercer?
Mr. Mercer: In and around that, support for some of the operational deficits of the centre, yes. I think the point is that it is an independent centre. It is run by a separate board of directors apart from government, and that is its presence, sort or organization status right now.
The Chairman: You were able to make a commitment for a period of five years? Actually, if I'm correct now, my understanding was you had to limit any such commitment to three years?
Mr. Mercer: No, we have a commitment right now, an ongoing commitment to help the Juno Beach Centre to the extent of $200,000 a year towards the operating costs of running the centre.
The Chairman: Is that $200,000 a year for each of the five years?
Mr. Mercer: That is correct.
Mr. Stagg: Also, there has been additional money put in, over time, as you know. Last fiscal year, there was a commitment of $1.5 million over two years made for two years in the budget.
Mr. Mercer: Yes, that is correct.
The Chairman: In terms of the content of the museum, that is the entire responsibility of the board?
Mr. Mercer: Yes, to that as well.
The Chairman: I see, thank you. The editorial comment is simply to add my voice to Senator Day's query about spouses of veterans who did not make a claim for the VIP program, and now because of longevity perhaps, or changed circumstances, are in some need. Certainly, the equities are all on the side of supporting such people in my view. I hope we can look into the cost of supporting spouses who are now in need of VIP assistance, and perhaps extend benefits to them. Because of time, that is for another day. I alert you that Senator Day and myself, at least, are likely to pursue that matter as time goes on.
That being said, it remains for me simply to thank you once again for your forthrightness and your willingness to meet with us and to raise the issues you have. I know it has been a great interest to each member of the committee. We look forward to an ongoing dialogue. We look forward, as always, to working with you and assisting you in your very important work for some very important Canadians. We congratulate you on your successes to date, and keep up the good work.
Mr. Stagg: Senator, thank you very much. I know it was heartfelt and it is accepted in the same spirit. If I might just correct my opening remarks, I think I had mentioned 19,000 rather than 90,000 veterans and primary caregivers now on VIP. It is not 19,000; it is 90,000, so just a small correction.
The Chairman: That is on the last page or your printed remarks?
Mr. Stagg: Yes.
The Chairman: We will make that correction.
The committee adjourned.