Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Issue 17 - Evidence - Meeting of November 8, 2012
OTTAWA, Thursday, November 8, 2012
The Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade met this day at 10:30 a.m. to study economic and political developments in the Republic of Turkey, their regional and global influences, the implications for Canadian interests and opportunities, and other related matters.
Senator A. Raynell Andreychuk (Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Chair: Honourable senators, I see a quorum. The Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade is beginning our examination of the economic and political developments in the Republic of Turkey, their regional and global influences, the implications for Canadian interests and opportunities, and other related matters.
We are fortunate to have been able to get the panel together rather quickly to start us off on this study. From the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade we are pleased to welcome Mr. John Kur, Director General, Europe and Eurasia; Ms. Marie Gervais-Vidricaire, Director General, Stabilisation and Reconstruction Task Force; and Mark Bailey, Director General, Middle East and Maghreb Bureau.
There are other officials. I believe, Mr. Kur, you are going to start. You may wish to introduce them and their positions. As I indicated to you just before we started, we are interested in the Republic of Turkey and its foreign relationship with Canada. We are interested in looking at our foreign policy and how it is playing out at this moment.
We are interested in your comments about where you see our relationship from the perspective of foreign affairs and anything that may be useful for our ongoing study on Turkey. Welcome to the committee.
John Kur, Director General, Europe and Eurasia, Foreign Affairs and International Trade Canada: Thank you very much, Madam Chair, honourable committee members, honourable senators and ladies and gentlemen.
I am delighted to be here today to speak with you about Turkey. Before I start, I would indeed like to introduce myself and my colleagues from the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade. I am the director general responsible for Europe and Eurasia. Ms. Gervais-Vidricaire is Director General for the Stabilisation and Reconstruction Task Force; and Mark Bailey is Director General for the Middle East and Maghreb Bureau. We are also joined by Jennifer May, who is director for commercial and bilateral relations in the department with Southeastern Europe and Eastern Europe. We are also joined by our colleagues who have been working hard to prepare for this morning's appearance, Bernard McPhail and Patricia Ockwell.
I will begin with a summary of the latest developments in Canada-Turkey bilateral relations. I will then present an overview of Turkey's foreign, domestic and economic policy environment. I will wrap up by outlining why Canada needs to continue its strong engagement with Turkey.
Recent meetings and high-level visits have helped focus the attention of both Canada and Turkey on the need to further develop our bilateral relationship. Other partners, such as the United States, the United Kingdom and Germany, have also put a high priority on building strong relations with Turkey. In strategic terms, Turkey has growing political and economic influence in Central Asia and the Middle East, being viewed as a model for emerging Arab democracies.
Turkey is a partner for Canada in multilateral fora, including at the United Nations and in NATO, with historical and active cooperation on missions such as in Afghanistan.
Similarly, Canada and Turkey share interests in the Middle East, Central Asia and in Africa, particularly regarding the promotion of peace, stability, democracy and development. Canada's engagement with Turkey will allow both countries to work together to promote human rights and the rule of law in the region.
As you know, Turkey is also a member of the G20 and will chair the group in 2015. Building closer economic ties with Turkey is a key aspect of our bilateral relations. We are especially pleased to note the recent opening of a Turkish consulate general in Toronto and the opening earlier of Canada's consulate in Istanbul, Turkey's commercial centre, to help foster greater trade and investment opportunities.
Since its beginning, Turkey's foreign policy has focused on maintaining strong relations with the West. Turkey joined NATO in 1952 and was one of the first countries in 1959 to seek close cooperation with the young European Economic Community, or EEC.
In 1996 Turkey and the European Union entered into a customs agreement to facilitate harmonized trade and joint economic development. In 2005 Turkey began formal negotiations to accede to the European Union. At present, 12 of 35 accession chapters are under negotiation between Turkey and the European Union and one chapter has been provisionally closed.
Turkey's ``zero problems with neighbours'' policy was introduced by Ahmet Davutoglu when he was Prime Minister Erdogan's foreign policy adviser from 2002 to 2009 and became the centrepiece of Turkish foreign policy when Mr. Davutoglu was appointed Minister of Foreign Affairs in 2009.
The policy initially led to improved relations for Turkey with key partners, including Greece, Russia, Iran and Syria. At the time, Turkey used its legacy and credentials as a moderate and secular state to increase stability in the Balkans, the Middle East and North Africa. Turkey also began to establish a greater diplomatic presence in Africa and Latin America. Nevertheless, the Arab Spring has proven to be a particular challenge for Turkey: its relations with Libya and Syria were downgraded, and relations with Iran, Iraq and Russia are also more difficult. Turkey currently has strained relations with Israel and reconciliation talks between Turkey and Armenia have been slow to achieve progress.
Regarding Syria, Canada and Turkey have similar attitudes towards the current crisis. Both countries have called on Assad to step down, have imposed economic sanctions and are participating in multilateral efforts to resolve the crisis, both through established bodies such as the United Nations, and through the friends of the Syrian people. Turkey is also hosting several of the Syrian opposition groups, including the Syrian National Council, which Turkey was instrumental in organizing and continues to support strongly despite growing criticism that this group is not sufficiently inclusive of other elements of the opposition.
Additionally, and unlike Canada, has Turkey is also hosting and providing support to elements of the armed opposition such as the Free Syrian Army. The conflict in Syria has resulted in a large influx of refugees fleeing to safety in Turkey. It is estimated there are over 100,000 refugees in camps along the border with an additional 50,000 to 70,000 refugees living with friends and family in urban areas. The Turkish government and the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees are expecting some 280,000 refugees to be in Turkey by the middle of 2013 should the crisis in Syria continue unabated.
In addition to the refugee crisis, military tensions at the border are also high, with Turkey publicly stating it will respond to any Syrian shells falling within its territory at a two-to-one ratio.
Canada has provided $12 million in humanitarian assistance to help address the needs of those affected by the crisis in Syria. This assistance has been challenged through United Nations agencies and the International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent movement. Until recently, Turkey has preferred to manage the Syrian refugee situation within its borders on its own. It has now, however, indicated that it is open to burden sharing with close allies. Turkey has not made appeals for international assistance through the international humanitarian system, with the exception of limited technical and in-kind support from the UNHCR and the World Food Programme. Minister Baird met with Turkish Foreign Minister Davutoglu in Ottawa on September 20, during which he offered Canada's support in helping manage the influx of refugees and was met with a positive response. The Canadian government is currently considering how to best support Turkey and will work through the Canadian embassy in an Ankara to deliver this commitment.
Turning to Turkey's domestic environment, Turkey's governing Justice and Development Party, or AKP for short, won a third consecutive majority in national elections on June 21, 2011. Since coming to power 10 years ago, the AKP has stabilized Turkey's economy and prioritized job creation. Turkey has enjoyed robust economic growth. GDP per capita increased 2.5 times over the past 10 years, growing by 9 per cent in 2010 and 8.5 per cent in 2011. Turkey has a vibrant and expanding middle class and a very young, tech-savvy population. It is notable that almost half of Turkey's population is under the age of 30.
Some of the most sensitive domestic issues the Turkish government faces are related to its Kurdish minority. Turkey's 15 million to 20 million Kurds constitute the country's largest minority group, just under one fifth of the total population. While the human rights situation for Turkish citizens of Kurdish origin has improved over the last few years, Kurds have not necessarily enjoyed the benefits of Turkey's rapid economic growth to the same extent as other Turkish citizens. Moreover, the Kurdistan Workers' Party, or PKK, has been waging a terrorist campaign since 1984 and there has been an a dramatic escalation of violence between the PKK and Turkish security forces since the summer of 2011, as the PKK seeks to take advantage of the instability on Turkey's border with Syria. The PKK is listed by Canada, the United States and the European Union as a terrorist organization.
Looking forward, Turkey offers significant potential for Canadian businesses. Bilateral merchandise trade between Canada and Turkey reached $2.4 billion in 2011, a significant number of Canadian companies are already active in Turkey, and there is room and opportunity to expand economic collaboration to our mutual benefit.
Turkey's size and relative political stability make it a strong market of choice for Canada. Prime Minister Erdogan's goal is for the Turkish economy to be among the world's top 10 by the year 2023, which marks the country's centenary as a republic.
Turkey is investing heavily to this end. It has announced development plans in education, communications technologies, infrastructure and energy. These initiatives provide excellent opportunities for Canada, given that these sectors match well with Canadian supply capabilities. Other sectors of particular opportunity for Canada are, of course, aerospace and natural resources.
As well as being a substantial market in its own right, Turkey has significant potential as a spring board to other markets. Turkish companies have an established business presence in many countries of the former Soviet Union, the Middle East and Northern Africa, bolstered in the case of Central Asia by linguistic and cultural ties. All of these factors point to Turkey as a country that offers significant potential for a strategic partnership for Canada.
My colleagues and I would be pleased to answer your questions. In closing, I would like to thank you, Madam Chair and the committee, for having invited us to appear today.
The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Kur. I take it the other panellists will answer questions in their particular areas as they come up.
Senator Downe: Thank you for the presentation. What is the major irritant between Turkey and Canada at the current time?
Mr. Kur: Madam Chair, will we take questions individually or would you like us to group our responses together?
The Chair: We usually take questions individually. If we start running out of time, we then cluster them.
Mr. Kur: I thank you very much for that important question. As you are most likely aware, since the Government of Canada's decision in 2006 to recognize the Armenian genocide, relations between Turkey and Canada have been strained. Since coming to office, Minister Baird has made a very concerted and express effort to put our relations with Turkey back on a better and positive footing. This has, of course, involved a number of high-level visits in both directions and a renewed dialogue on bilateral priorities and on commercial priorities. This was accented when the Turkish foreign minister visited Ottawa in September of this year.
While I would say that there has been a certain degree of strain in the relationship in recent years, because of the effort of the minister and the government as a whole, we have been able to put a marker down to open a new chapter.
Senator Downe: Has the Canadian government expressed any concern to Turkey over press freedom? Apparently they have imprisoned a lot of media personnel in their country. There is a sense that the press is being suppressed. Has that been raised in any of our discussions with Turkey?
Mr. Kur: To answer that question, I would say that though our embassy in Ankara, as well as through high-level ministerial contacts, we frequently engage our Turkish counterparts on issues, broadly speaking, of human rights in Turkey, including concerns that we have expressed over the freedom of expression and the imprisonment of journalists, academics and human rights defenders.
Our embassy in Ankara is engaged closely with Turkish civil society to ensure that the initiatives we fund and the activities we undertake support the human rights and rule of law situation. We continue to raise these types of concerns bilaterally as well as through the appropriate multilateral channels with our Turkish counterparts.
Senator Downe: You note in your presentation that their relationship with Israel has deteriorated substantially. I understand Turkey has announced in the last week or so that they intend to put on trial the Israeli military people and government officials they think were responsible for what they call their assault on the boat that came from Turkey a couple of years ago. Even though the investigation found against Turkey, has Canada expressed any concern that these former close allies are now drifting apart to such an extent?
Mr. Kur: Indeed, you are quite right, senator, to characterize Turkish-Israeli relations as very tense since about 2008. Those relations were further stained in 2010, as a result of the Gaza flotilla incident. As you know, Turkey demanded an apology from Israel and, afterward, downgraded its bilateral relations with them. Of course, it is certainly in Canada's interest for both countries to normalize relations, and we have been engaged in consultations to that end. I might, if it is all right, ask Mark Bailey to provide the perspective vis-à-vis Canada-Israeli relations, which falls under his responsibility.
Mark Bailey, Director General, Middle East and Maghreb Bureau, Foreign Affairs and International Trade Canada: Let me also say that it is a pleasure to be meeting with you here this morning. You are quite correct that relations between Turkey and Israel have gone through a rather rough patch. As Mr. Kur noted, it started in 2008 with Operation Cast Lead against Gaza and then went through a significant additional deterioration following the Mavi Marmara incident with the flotilla.
In direct answer to your question, I can confirm that Canadian officials at various levels, including very senior levels, have raised the matter with both Turkish and Israeli officials, saying, ``It would be much better for all of you, as well as for all of your friends, if you two folks could make up and get over this problem in your bilateral relations because good relations between Turkey and Israel are very important for the stability and prospects for peace in the Middle East region.''
Senator Downe: Is it the opinion of the officials in the Government of Canada that the current government in Turkey is intentionally moving away from their traditional positions and slowly moving toward a closer relationship with Latin America, as you mentioned in your presentation, and with Africa and away from some of the traditional relationships with Western countries? They see their role as different than it was 10 years ago and see themselves as the leader, if you will, of a different part of the world than we are involved with on a regular basis. Is it the policy of the Turkish government? Do they see what we consider problems as a new direction for the country?
Mr. Kur: I think, senator, that it would be fair to characterize developments in Turkey in recent years, both economically and politically, as resulting in a perhaps larger and more confident role on the global stage for the country. This has happened, of course, through groups, such as the G20, in which Turkey takes part. As you correctly mentioned, Turkey is indeed seeking to expand its diplomatic and overseas presence in a number of different regions of the world.
That being said, I would certainly say that the routes that Turkey has established with the West, be it through NATO, through its ongoing negotiations with the European Union or even through our own Canadian-Turkish bilateral dialogue, have signaled to us a strong commitment, from Turkish officials, to those transatlantic ties, notwithstanding the fact that it is indeed difficult, at this moment, for Turkey to implement its immediate ``zero problems with neighbours'' regional foreign policy, given very complicated developments in its neighbourhood.
I do not know if Mr. Bailey would like to add something on the regional dynamics that Turkey faces in its immediate vicinity.
Mr. Bailey: For a long time, Turkey focused fairly narrowly on its relations with Europe, with Washington especially and the West in general. As Mr. Kur indicated, the current Foreign Minister, Ahmet Davutoglu, has had quite an influence in revamping Turkey's foreign relations and foreign policy. He basically asserted that this rather unidirectional approach that had been followed for decades in Turkey's foreign policy needed to be broadened and to engage much more widely in the world and especially in its own backyard where, of course, it had had a long history of presence and relations. His argument was that turning its back on that region after World War I and the crumbling of the Ottoman Empire was not serving Turkey's interests and that it needed to re-engage with these countries simply for its own economic security and all of the other interests that one can think of. Indeed, as Mr. Kur indicated, that is what they have been doing for the last 10 years.
[Translation]
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Once again, welcome to our committee. Your presentation was very interesting, and your outline of the situation is very important to us.
Recently, the Turkish Minister of Foreign Affairs was in Ottawa. He came to discuss Syria and other regional and international matters. What are Canada's main objectives and considerations with respect to Turkey's foreign policy?
[English]
Mr. Kur: Thank you very much, senator. I think, as you will have seen as a result of the visit by the Turkish foreign minister to Ottawa, we now have an opportunity available to us to significantly strengthen and deepen not only the bilateral relationship but also our cooperation in important foreign policy and international trade objectives abroad.
I would say that commercially, turning to some of the elements that I touched upon in my opening statement, Turkey is a market of ever expanding importance to Canada. Given the particular characteristics of that market, fostering a positive and constructive bilateral dialogue at the highest political levels is very important to helping our Canadian companies position themselves well in the market.
For us, if you look at the Turkish market from a business perspective, not only, as I mentioned, are there important opportunities domestically through some of the established, larger family-owned conglomerates and other types of business enterprises that exist in Turkey, but also, given their reach in the broader region, significant opportunities to partner and expand.
In terms of Canada's overall foreign policy objectives, I think one of the key activities, going forward, will be for us to use our bilateral engagement with Turkey to help to ensure that a Canadian business presence can flourish in that market. I would also say that, in that sense, we can also, from a bilateral relations perspective — as both ministers did when the Turkish foreign minister visited Ottawa — look, in concert, at some of the key global issues and regional challenges that we both face. We have touched upon the cooperation that Canada would like to undertake in support of Turkey's efforts regarding the Syrian refugee situation, but there are other foreign policy dialogues and objectives that we can advance, be it in human rights or the promotion of democracy and the value of freedom in Northern Africa and in the Arab Spring countries where Turkey has a unique contribution to make as a partner and ally for Canada, given its knowledge and experience in the region.
[Translation]
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: Can you give us some more details on the bilateral tools that could be used, in your opinion, to consolidate the relationship between Canada and Turkey, and if you feel there are other mechanisms that could be put in place as well? You touched on this briefly but I would like to know more.
[English]
Mr. Kur: I think, given the very constructive and ongoing dialogue that Minister Baird has initiated and maintained with his Turkish counterpart, we can now look at the full range of diplomatic engagement that would be useful to strengthening Canada-Turkish relations. Of course, parliamentary diplomacy has an important role to play. This very hearing and this study that your committee is undertaking have a very important role in signalling to our Turkish allies that we are committed to expanding and supporting the development of the relationship. High-level visits to Turkey, particularly by Canadian political and business leaders, will be very important to sensitizing and helping our Turkish counterparts look to Canada whenever they are thinking about, for instance, new business opportunities with North American partners.
Of course, from a commercial perspective we face stiff competition in the market from our American and European friends. I think we must have — and certainly this is the type of engagement strategy we would envision on the level of officials — a sustained, high-level dialogue with our Turkish partners, and frequent exchanges through our embassy in Ankara and also now our consulate in Istanbul. It is a very robust presence on the ground to deliver on Canadian programs, such as the Canada Fund for Local Initiatives, which help support some of the human rights questions Canada wishes to advance in the country and puts our trade commissioners on the ground to facilitate business contacts.
Senator D. Smith: Mr. Kur, I thought that was an excellent overview of the economic opportunities that are there, and also the stabilizing impact that Turkey's emerging strength has on the Middle East in general. As a quick aside, I was there three or four years ago on exchange, and I was there earlier doing history tours because I am a history nut and read a lot about the Ottoman Empire. On the Armenian issue, we had several days of meetings in Ankara and within 10 or 15 minutes we would be into that, whether you wanted to be or not. They readily acknowledged that what happened was unfortunate. They used the word ``tragedy'' and several other words. One word they cannot cope with is ``genocide.'' I do not know if there is any point in getting into huge arguments about that over there; I would like to focus on the economic issue.
I think your reference to the refugee situation there is very relevant because several years ago Canada went through a huge issue with regard to the Lebanese situation and the numbers were in the many thousands. I saw a New York Times article that said there could be as many as 700,000 overall refugees. I think it would be helpful if, at least during a day or something, we had very good briefings. It would be to the extent that Canada is playing some role, that we have it pretty well thought out, that it makes sense and is fair and reasonable, and just monitoring that. I hope that would be possible because I assume that our colleagues would assist in the coordination of our schedule, assuming we go.
The Chair: Yes, thank you for that, Senator Smith. We have yet to cross that and I am sure our colleagues in the Senate do not want us to pre-empt their role in determining whether there would be a visit.
Senator D. Smith: I would never dare to do that. In the event that the sun, moon and stars all align and we wind up going there —
The Chair: If we are going to have a trip, of course we will specifically see what further briefings we need in areas. Your point is on the record.
Senator D. Smith: What would be helpful if we get to that is — on the Lebanese situation several years ago — having a candid thing about what was done right, where it fell off the mark a bit, and what we have learned that would be useful and fair and the right thing to do as a result of experience.
The Chair: I think that is more of a statement and a forewarning that you may need to give us more information.
Senator D. Smith: I just wanted one of the items, but I do agree with you, chair, that the primary focus is the economic impact and stabilizing impact.
Mr. Kur: Might I respond to the senator's first set of observations on the Armenian genocide question? This is indeed an issue that remains on the minds of our Turkish interlocutors. I think you have characterized some of the considerations that Turkey has on the issue. I would say that from the Canadian government perspective, we have always been very clear when we are engaging our Turkish counterparts to ensure that they understand and we communicate clearly that Canada's recognition of the Armenian genocide in no way impacts the esteem in which we hold modern Turkey.
Indeed, as you know senator, the events of 1915 pre-date the founding of the modern republic in 1923. As a result we are very supportive, and Canada has been a very strong supporter, of the Swiss-brokered attempts toward Armenian-Turkish reconciliation that began in 2009. From the level of officials, we are always happy to provide consultations on how to advance those issues.
Senator D. Smith: On that, I might point out that it is rather ironic, but the two parliaments have had — between the Armenian parliament and I have been there, too — better dialogue than its expatriate Armenian community, most of whom are descendants who came over here 100 years ago. However, they had a good dialogue going with the Armenian parliament and hit a bump or two on the road, but hopefully they will get back on track.
Senator Finley: Before getting into geopolitical stuff later in these hearings, I would like to understand more about Turkey itself, if I may. My questions are probably very simple, but it would help me to understand or frame it better.
I know there are basically three major political parties in Turkey. I wonder if you could briefly characterize each of these three parties and what they generally tend to stand for. Do they tend to be more socialist oriented, more right wing oriented or what? Could you briefly tell me about those three parties?
Mr. Kur: Indeed, the main political parties in Turkey are the Justice and Development Party, the Republic People's Party, the National Movement Party and the Peace and Democracy Party. As I mentioned in my opening statement, the Justice and Development Party has been the governing party for the past 10 years. For instance, they have a majority in the Grand National Assembly of 326 seats compared to the Republic People's Party at 135, the National Movement Party at 53 and the independents and Peace and Democracy at 36. However, with the chair's permission and indulgence, we might propose to provide you with some written or further verbal briefings on some of the platforms of those different parties in order to compare and contrast the different positions that they are advocating domestically in Turkey.
Senator Finley: That would be acceptable to me if it is to the chair. I wonder if you could also add to that briefing who the key players are in each of the political parties that one might like to either research or meet with at some point in time.
Mr. Kur: Certainly.
Senator Finley: Turkey has a kind of mixed history, democratically or politically, with the military playing a fairly large role in the history. How would you describe the current situation? Is it stable enough that the likelihood of the military having to intervene directly is negligible or is it always a possibility?
Mr. Kur: I would say that under the ruling AKP party the Turkish military has accepted, perhaps for the first time, a role that is subservient to the elected government. As you have mentioned, the Turkish military long believed itself to be the primary defender of the legacy of the republic and its secular order. It has used its power and influence to force governments from office the past, four times as a matter of fact. Since gaining office, the AKP has faced similar challenges from the military. In fact, the military establishment itself challenged the nomination of Abdullah Gul as president in 2007 on the ground that he was not secular enough. However, the AKP fought and won in the 2007 election on that very issue and subsequently has succeeded in diminishing the military's self-appointed role as overseer of the state apparatus.
From that perspective, I would say there have been significant developments under the leadership of the AKP party over the past 10 years which have changed the domestic political landscape when it comes to the types of incidents in the past which you referenced in your statement.
Senator Finley: You would say it is more stable? We could regard it as a stable democracy?
Mr. Kur: Regionally it is certainly a very politically stable and important player in all of those areas.
Senator Finley: Could I turn for a second to the business of Turkey? Like most southern Mediterranean countries, of which I would half characterize Turkey as, they would appear to have a chronic unemployment problem with young people. I do not remember the numbers, but I think around 30 per cent are unemployed. Are there particular activities being undertaken by the Turkish government to address this specific problem?
Mr. Kur: Thank you for raising that important question. As I look in Turkey, for instance, at the official unemployment figures let us say for 2011, it stands at about 9.8 per cent, or roughly 10 per cent. Of course, that is in an economy that grew in that year by 8.5 per cent. There are challenges that the Turkish government faces in advancing its economic development agenda. Some of those are hampered by the current eurozone financial crisis because Turkey is an important trading party with the European Union. Regardless, we still expect Turkish economic growth, as does the IMF, to continue this year and next.
In order to address some of those key questions that you raised, particularly with a significant percentage of the population being under the age of 30, the Turkish government has announced a series of new investments and initiatives. These are in education, telecommunications, infrastructure and others, aimed at moving the country in the direction of economic growth and prosperity and providing the types of opportunities that are required in a modern, global, highly integrated society.
Senator Finley: I am sure we will get to things like education, particularly later in the hearings.
One last question, if I may. It is a question we have to always ask pretty early on in these things. We have just dealt with the BRIC countries and now we are entering into a different sphere. Inevitably a question that comes up involves business ethics, particularly baksheesh, backhanders, corruption or whatever you want to call it. How would you rate Turkey in this respect? Is it a country that you would say is relatively up-front and straightforward to deal with or do we have Byzantine layers of officials to work through?
Mr. Kur: Thank you for that excellent question. From a Canadian perspective, these are issues that are top of mind when entering a new market or forming a new business partnership, in this case with a Turkish company. I will turn to some data that is referenced by Export Development Canada on the Turkish market. I cannot speak here on EDC's behalf but will take advantage of some of their excellent research.
For instance, when looking at the ease of doing business in Turkey, according to the most recent World Bank assessment, Turkey is somewhere in between in terms of the complexity of the business environment doing business in Germany or Israel on one side and let us say Russia and Ukraine on the other. In terms of an international assessment of the business environment, it is certainly not as challenging in some of the areas you mentioned as in some of its regional neighbours. That being said, Turkey still has a very ambitious and aggressive reform agenda that it must advance in a number of areas in order to help bring greater business stability and predictability to the market to attract foreign investment, and to ensure that the country is competitive in a G20 context.
By way of example, according to EDC's latest figures, they themselves have supported over 177 Canadian companies doing business in that particular market and have also established a representative office in our consulate in Istanbul to help facilitate greater business volume. I think that also speaks to the fact that Canadian companies are increasingly being attracted to the market. As we would recommend for any market outside of Canada, one must look very closely at the different business issues that you have raised.
I would not necessarily characterize the business environment as Byzantine in the sense that there has been significant reform and progress in the Turkish market. However, it is still characterized by large family-owned conglomerates that have business interests in a number of different areas or sectors, usually with a financial institution as part of the business structures that have emerged. For Canadian businesses, it is important to make personal relationships with Turkish business leaders in those areas, look at how certain Turkish enterprises have expanded in the region, and where there are other opportunities — not just in Turkey but also with Turkish companies — in a number of third markets where Turkey has a very well-established and highly developed business presence.
Senator Johnson: I would like to talk about the free trade agreement situation in Turkey. I know that negotiations have stalled and I wonder what the chances are for getting them back on track. Also, what happened with the public consultations that went on with the provinces and territories? Could you give us the results of those?
Mr. Kur: I am sorry; could you clarify which public consultations?
Senator Johnson: There were public on the Canada-Turkey free trade agreement with the Canadian provinces, territories, the businesses and the general public in 2010. Could you enlighten us on those for the purposes of the study and tell us what is happening in terms of Turkey?
Mr. Kur: Perhaps by way of background, Turkey approached Canada in late 2009 seeking to negotiate a free trade agreement, and formal exploratory talks were held in October 2010. At that time, there was not sufficient common ground to pursue an ambitious and comprehensive free trade agreement, but Canada has remained open to further consultations.
Canada continues to exchange information and views with Turkey in order to determine whether it will show a willingness to negotiate an ambitious and comprehensive trade agreement that would address key areas of importance to Canadian industry. I would say, as Mr. Bailey has mentioned, that the types of consultations that the department, through our trade policy specialists, would have conducted at any stage during this process would be part of the regular domestic stakeholder engagement consultations that take place in order to give both our federal-provincial partners and Canadian industry an opportunity to ensure that our trade policy negotiators are aware of their particular interests or concerns vis-à-vis a specific market.
Senator Johnson: We do not have a time frame that this might be pushed for again.
Mr. Kur: We are expecting that there will be a meeting between Canadian and Turkish officials at the senior level later this month in Geneva to discuss further Turkey's overall approach to free trade agreements. This will give us an opportunity to remind Turkey of Canada's approach to free trade negotiations and our interests in seeking an ambitious and comprehensive agreement. It will also allow our colleagues and experts to gauge Turkey's intent and level of ambition.
Senator Johnson: Given that, what sectors of the Canadian and Turkish economies have the greatest potential for boosting bilateral trade?
Mr. Kur: To answer that question, we would need to look at both sides of the coin, i.e. Turkey's own investments that it will be making in the coming years in its key sectors of education and communications technologies and in other areas will provide supply opportunities for Canadian companies. Of course, as Canadian firms determine their international market strategies, Turkey is an increasingly attractive market with respect to natural resources development, aerospace and infrastructure development. This is where we see the greatest opportunities to build new economic partnerships.
Senator Johnson: What is Canada's official position on Turkey's accession to the EU?
Mr. Kur: I might need a few more moments to properly contextualize an answer. It was a quick question but there is not necessarily a quick answer.
The Chair: We are not asking you to answer it in a political sense. Is there a directive or comment you could make, or is that in flux?
Mr. Kur: The negotiations for Turkey to join the EU, as I mentioned, officially began in 2005. Of course, this is first and foremost a matter for the European Union and Turkey to determine.
Certainly, there are Canadian interests that could be advanced very elegantly through continued progress. We have been monitoring the ongoing negotiations closely. In May of this year the European Commission and Turkey launched a positive agenda between the two parties to complement the accession negotiations which we saw as a positive development.
Senator Hubley: My question has been answered.
[Translation]
Senator Chaput: When you talked about EDC, Mr. Kur, you mentioned that there are 177 Canadian businesses that benefit from their services. I was wondering what type of services they receive, and what fields these Canadian businesses that want to do business with Turkey are in?
[English]
Mr. Kur: I am afraid that I do not have the specific data on Export Development Canada's list of companies that it has served.
The Chair: We will be calling them as witnesses in the future.
Senator Chaput: That is fine. If we have them as witnesses, the question could be asked then.
[Translation]
I have a second question. According to the 2006 Statistics Canada census, approximately 43,000 residents of Canada are of Turkish origin or descent. Where do most of these Canadians of Turkish extraction live?
[English]
Mr. Kur: I can say from personal experience that I know a few members of the Turkish-Canadian community based in Saskatchewan, so I could absolutely assure you that there are a few located elsewhere and not only in Toronto or Montreal. We could try to analyze the Statistics Canada data to provide a more complete picture for you.
[Translation]
Senator Chaput: One last question. According to Citizenship and Immigration Canada, 1,633 Turks were studying in Canada in 2011, which is almost twice the number of Turkish students documented in 2002. Do you know what Canadian universities are doing to attract Turkish students?
[English]
Mr. Kur: The advisory panel on Canada's international education strategy has identified Turkey has a priority market for educational promotion. The panel was set up to look specifically at how Canada can attract some of the best and brightest students to Canada. We are working through that mechanism and through our partners in the academic community to look at how to approach further development of the educational exchanges in the Turkish market.
[Translation]
Senator Chaput: Do these discussions or agreements include bursaries for students? Do you know if assistance is offered to these young people to study in Canada specifically?
[English]
Mr. Kur: No, not to the best of my knowledge. However, the strategy is being developed to ensure that Canada is well positioned and marketed in terms of educational promotion with some of our key partners overseas, such as Turkey.
[Translation]
Senator Chaput: Do you know if these students stay in Canada once they have completed their studies, or whether they return home?
[English]
Mr. Kur: I would have to get back to the committee with a response to that question.
[Translation]
Senator Rivard: Madam Chair, thank you very much. Following up on Senator Johnson's question, I would like to go back to the matter of Turkey's bid for admission into the European Union. At the present time, it is not being allowed in. Do you know the rules of the European Union that must apply for its admittance? Must there be a unanimous vote from the 27 member countries, or is a majority vote sufficient for acceptance?
Naturally, the first issue is to determine whether it is a part of the European continent, as it straddles both Asia and Europe.
[English]
Mr. Kur: This might provide me with an opportunity to go into a longer version to the question that was posed a few moments ago.
In terms of the European Union's accession process, Turkey, as any candidate country, must demonstrate that it complies with the European Community laws known collectively as the Acquis communautaire across a very comprehensive range of areas. I mentioned that 35 chapters are required to be negotiated in order to demonstrate a candidate country's compliance with the Acquis communautaire. Some progress has been made; however, concerns about or opposition to Turkey's accession among some EU states, combined with Turkish reluctance to undertake some key reforms and to recognize the Greek Cypriot government, have frozen or blocked talks on several of those negotiating chapters. Of the 35, 12 have been opened; one, science and research, has been provisionally closed; and the rest have not been opened.
As I alluded to earlier, in an attempt to refocus the discussion between Turkey and the European Union, the European Commission and Turkey launched their positive agenda in May 2012 to complement accession negotiations by enhancing cooperation in a number of joint areas, including political reforms, exchanges on visa policies, on mobility and migration, trade, energy, and counterterrorism. The European Commission also expressed a desire at that time to resume negotiations in its annual report on enlargement, which was released in October this year.
The accession process has been lengthy. Of course, on the other side of the equation, the length of that process has an impact in the candidate country. From the perspective of the Turkish government, I imagine they will be looking closely at the domestic political context going forward as well as developments in Europe, in particular with respect to the eurozone financial crisis and issues of that nature. The process is very lengthy and is most likely to be ongoing for quite some time. Certainly, from a Canadian vantage, as those discussions continue to unfold and as Turkey works toward the domestic reforms needed to meet the Acquis communautaire, this certainly will bolster, in our opinion, the ongoing reform efforts domestically that are already under way.
[Translation]
Senator Rivard: I have one last question. I rather think that Mr. Kur will not be able to answer it. It is a political question. Over the years, our country has acknowledged that genocides have occurred in various parts of the world; sometimes they go back 100 years, and sometimes they are more recent. How does it benefit our country to acknowledge genocide? We understand that the request is always made by survivors of the genocide, people who came to Canada and are very happy to have survived. What does the fact of having a position with respect to a genocide do for Canada?
[English]
Mr. Kur: In 2000 and 2004, the Senate and the House of Commons adopted motions recognizing the Armenian genocide. That was followed in 2006 by the Government of Canada. The facts speak for themselves.
The Chair: We can get into a debate about that. I was part of that debate when it reached the Senate. While it may be the descendants of the people directly involved who maintain the flame of the unfairness and the injustice of the issues of the day, we, as a world community who believe in human rights and certain values, think that history teaches us much about where we should go in the future. To deny history can be as difficult as to ignore it. It is that balance that every parliament and every government makes; and there is always an issue. Mr. Kur addressed it rather well. I will use his line next time.
When you address the genocide that happened in 1915, you are talking about history at that moment that we should all acknowledge. That does not mean we preclude understanding and accepting the country as it is today. We agree to disagree. I have sat at the table with many of my colleagues saying that we in Canada have had to acknowledge some of our shortcomings and wrongdoings, but that does not preclude what we are today. Rather, it makes us better for it. We continue to dialogue and to encourage in order to get over the impasse from parliament to parliament. It is a human rights debate and a political debate.
I think you knew you were going to get the answer from Mr. Kur, but I thought I would try, if that is helpful.
[Translation]
Senator Rivard: I would like to make it clear that I am not against Canada's taking a position; that is not what I meant. I understand that the request is always made and considered and studied, but I was not trying to say that I am against this. I was wondering about the impacts.
[English]
The Chair: I appreciate that. I wanted to say that we knew there might be a downside of doing it, but we hoped it was a short-term downside and that we could get our colleagues to accept that we have done it and perhaps they should address this issue and move on and just join the community of saying that we have to live with our history — our collective histories. We are on the same side.
[Translation]
Senator De Bané: Turkey is a member of NATO and imports a third of its energy from Iran. Recently Turkey, together with Brazil, attempted to find a way of dissipating the tension there is between Iran and the rest of the world with respect to Iran's nuclear policy. I understand that this did not work out. In another connection, Turkish Sunni Muslims are in conflict with Iran for political domination regarding what is happening in Iraq.
How do you explain this dependence on energy from a country that is attempting to destabilize the Middle East, despite the fact that Turkey is a member of NATO? How do you view the challenges in that country's foreign policy?
[English]
Mr. Kur: In a moment, I will ask Mr. Bailey to comment vis-à-vis Iran and Iraq. I would say at the outset that Turkey takes a very careful and nuanced approach with the Iranian government. Turkey relies on Iran for approximately 30 per cent of its oil and 17 per cent of its natural gas. As you know, regular high-level encounters are a feature of the Iran-Turkey relationship.
Through these encounters, Turkey seeks both to understand Iranian intentions and to provide Turkish views on issues of concern. Of course, as you know, Turkey voted against UN Security Council sanctions against Iran related to its nuclear program, but it has applied the UN-mandated sanctions. Although it does not intend to introduce bilateral sanctions in Iran, Turkey is encouraging Iran to cooperate with the international community to dispel concerns regarding its nuclear program.
Mr. Bailey: The other major energy supplier to Turkey is Russia, which provides some counterbalance.
[Translation]
Turkey's efforts to develop its relations with Iran and Iraq can be seen in the context of the policy Mr. Kur discussed earlier, that is to say that its objective is to get along with its neighbours.
Of course, Iran and Iraq are immediate neighbours. They share borders with Turkey. Turkey thought it would be good to attempt to have a more productive relationship with those two countries and that this would be in everyone's best interest.
That said, the effort to develop smooth relations with these countries was unfortunately unsuccessful. Relationships with Iran are somewhat tense because Turkey, even though it did not vote in favour of the sanctions against Iran when it sat on the United Nations Security Council, nevertheless shares the concerns of the international community with respect to Iran's nuclear program. It is holding quite an intense dialogue with Iranian authorities on the matter.
This is what led to the failed accord which it negotiated with Brazil. Unfortunately, that accord did not quite respect the objectives and interests of the international community as a whole as they were expressed by the major powers of the P5, and so on.
Insofar as Iraq is concerned, the fact is that the Kurdish authorities have not yet put an end to the activities of the PKK. I don't know if it would be accurate to say that they allow them — but at least one can say that they can't seem to prevent the PKK from organizing its military activities against Turkey using bases in Iraq.
Obviously, any country that sees its neighbour allowing certain groups to organize military attacks from its territory will have enormous problems with that. That is the situation Turkey faces. Despite that, it attempted to develop trade and investments with Iraq overall, not only with Kurdistan but with other parts of Iraq. There have been ups and downs. There were good days and bad days, because as you know, the situation in Iraq is not simple either. I think I will stop here.
[English]
Senator De Bané: When the committee was in Brazil last year, I asked a very talented Canadian diplomat what the top three priority countries are for Brazil. One of the three was Turkey. Why is it that Brazil and Turkey do all sorts of things together? I thought that one of the three would be the United States, but not so. The other two were South Africa and India.
I understand that many Brazilians are of African descent and that India is an emerging power, but why is Turkey among the three priorities in foreign policy for Brazil?
Mr. Kur: I would appreciate an opportunity to summon that talented diplomat to respond. For our part, we will do our best. This goes back to some of our earlier exchanges on the way in which Turkey wants to develop economically and to build relationships around the globe on a much broader basis than in the past. Looking at the Brazilian market and some of its comparative advantages, you can see that in areas such as commerce, finance and others Turkey and Brazil have a lot of common ground and collaboration, particularly in a G20 context and in a BRIC context. Of course, BRIC is Brazil, Russia, India and China, and in recent years there is the addition of South Africa and Turkey.
I think there is a willingness on the part of Turkish authorities to engage the BRIC countries as a whole. As Mr. Bailey mentioned, Russia is not only a neighbour but an important trading and business partner, for which there are very well-established commercial ties. For Brazil, this would represent a significant new market of opportunity. A two- way engagement between countries like Brazil and Turkey would fit nicely into a larger global view of how Turkey wants to position itself on the world stage.
Senator Wallace: Mr. Kur, when you talked about opportunities in the future for increased business activity between Canadian businesses and interests in Turkey, you mentioned the development of natural resources. Does Turkey have restrictions on direct foreign ownership of their natural resources? Do they have restrictions on the ownership of corporations in Turkey that would own those natural resources, all of which we have to varying degrees in Canada? Do those types of restrictions exist in Turkey?
Mr. Kur: Natural resources, in particular mining and oil and gas, are of increasing interest for Canadian companies. A number of companies are investing and working successfully on the ground as we speak. As would be the case in virtually any jurisdiction, there are always licensing and environmental requirements and others things of this nature that any domestic or foreign investor would have to comply with in order to undertake those activities. I might offer to come back to the committee with specific information on the natural resources sector in terms of direct foreign investment, either content requirements or ownership requirements that would apply in particular subsectors.
I would note that to date, if those types of considerations exist, they have not impaired the ability of Canadian companies making new investments in the sector.
Senator Wallace: We would expect there would be regulatory hurdles, in particular with the ownership of companies that own these resources in Turkey. Are Canadian companies in any way restricted from acquiring those interests directly? I would appreciate anything you could come back with on that.
The desire is to increase bilateral trade between Turkey and Canada. As you point out to us, negotiations are continuing toward a free trade agreement. At this point in time, are there one or two major obstacles that prevent the export of goods from Canada into Turkey that we would hope to overcome through a free trade agreement? I know there are a number of issues that would be dealt with in that agreement, but are there one or two key ones that have proven to be difficult for Canadian businesses to overcome?
Mr. Kur: Thank you, senator. I would offer an answer from a slightly different vantage point. In recent years, as I am sure you are aware, Canada has developed an approach to free trade agreements that is very comprehensive. We are seeing this now in the ongoing negotiations between Canada and the European Union for a comprehensive economic and trade agreement. This has meant that, for our trade policy experts and specialists, in approaching any new negotiation, be it with Turkey or any other country, there are a number of important factors that they take into account in order to determine the overall level of ambition of a particular agreement.
Of course there are many inputs to that equation from a Canadian domestic supply perspective, in terms of our offensive interests in any particular given market. I would not want to pre-suppose a response from our trade policy negotiators, but I would simply say that, in the discussions that we have had so far with Turkey, a level of ambition, on the Turkish part, to raise the bar to a point where we could engage in what we would consider to be very comprehensive negotiations has not yet materialized.
Senator Wallace: In Canada, of course, we are concerned about separating the private interests of those of us involved in government from our own private, personal interests. We have strict disclosure requirements. Obviously, we have just gone through some revision to all of that here in the Senate and in the House of Commons. In Turkey, is there that type of disclosure and that separation between the interests that government officials have in their government capacity and their own private interests, in particular interest in businesses that exist in Turkey?
Mr. Kur: I think that is a very fair question, senator. The types of reforms that Turkey has undertaken, whether it be toward an ultimate goal of European Union accession, as part of an OECD process or in order to comply with other bilateral agreements that it has signed around the world, are moving the country and the economy in the direction that you mentioned. We would need to put together some background for you on the current status of those types of requirements. I would just note, though, that the process in this direction is one that has been underway for quite some time. I am sure that it will continue as Turkey moves forward with its reform agenda.
Senator Wallace: I was just following up on Senator Finley's comments earlier that we understand the environment that exists today, the places it might evolve to and the fact that certain activities are underway, but trying to get an understanding of the circumstances today and the types of areas that I and others have touched on is important to us.
Mr. Kur: As I mentioned earlier, one of the key characteristics of the Turkish corporate environment has traditionally been family-owned companies that have grown, expanded and become mid-sized enterprises that have close connections with financial institutions and other economic partners in the country. That has created a series of business networks that are very important from a Canadian commercial vantage point.
The Chair: I have a couple of questions, and then we will determine the second round.
I have been impressed that Turkey has been able to balance so many problems within its own country and in the neighbourhood. We keep coming back to the fact that Turkey is ready, as a partner, if they should decide to go into a trade agreement. You have made your comments about the Europeans, and comments have been made about Turkey's movement into international fora. This is a country that is on the move, and that appears to be in the direction of international standards, better democracy and more openness. Given its long history and its difficulties, it is one that we should pay attention to. That is why we are studying it.
With all of these positives, there is one other. They have been very practical. From time to time, their parties and their people have ideological ideas and standards, but they have been very practical in moving their country ahead. With the recent Middle East issues, it seems that Turkey is poised to move in where Egypt often played a role, both politically and economically. More and more people are looking to Turkey as the place to jump off to in trade issues. Canada should, in your opinion, be looking to Turkey if we want to work in the Middle East and in the region.
Recently, the prime minister made comments about their involvement in Africa. Is this just a country that is ready, open and looking for opportunities, or is there some strategic positioning vis-à-vis other partners in the Middle East.
Mr. Kur: Thank you for that excellent question. I think it is very safe indeed to assume that the Turkish approach is highly strategic, and I think Canada must be equally strategic. I very much appreciate your point that Turkey has a larger economic role to play in its region. I will perhaps defer to Mr. Bailey for some comments on the dynamic between Egypt and Turkey. From what we have seen of Turkish economic development and foreign trade priorities over the past 10 years, there has been a very strategic approach toward engaging Central Asian markets and the Russian market and, essentially, taking advantage of getting operations off the ground there before turning to new opportunities in Africa. Of the 30 new diplomatic missions that Turkey is opening around the globe, 23 are in Africa. This signals a greater and heightened level of engagement on that particular continent.
I think that follows, as we had heard earlier, a need to not just be present in its immediate neighbourhood and with its traditional partners but also to engage the BRIC economies. Also, from our discussions with Turkey, there is a great interest in developing new ties between Canada and Turkey on the economic front.
From that perspective, the strategic opportunity now awaits us. Perhaps Mr. Bailey might want to say a few words on Egypt.
Mr. Bailey: In terms of economic competition between Turkey and Egypt, there is none. Seriously. Egypt's economy is in a rather sad state these days. They are in the final stages, we hope, of negotiating an IMF package of close to $5 billion, which will just deal with the most immediate, pressing balance of payments crisis that is looming over the country.
Egypt's companies, investors and so on are not big players throughout their immediate region in the way that Turkish companies, contractors, exporters and investors are active. They are in Iraq. They were in Syria in a big way. They are in Egypt. They were a very big player in Libya before that country went through its crisis last year. I am sure they fully intend to resume that position as Libya stabilizes and gets back on track.
On the economic front, there really is no competition. On the political front, though, there is a bit of a competition. Especially with the completion of its elections, we are seeing signs that Egypt has the intention of resuming the role of political leadership that it held amongst the Arab countries up until a while ago. Indeed, they tend to see the Turks as the new kid on the block that perhaps is crowding their space a little bit. There, things are little less simple and straightforward.
[Translation]
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: You mentioned that 177 Canadian businesses were present in Turkey. I want to know if they belong to Canadians of Turkish or Armenian origin?
And my second question is also very brief: have there been any Canadian trade missions in the past few years?
[English]
Mr. Kur: Just to clarify the figure that I quoted earlier of 177 Canadian companies, that is the group of Canadian companies that has actually been supported, by products or services, through Export Development Canada. That is, by no means, the total number of Canadian companies that are active in the market. It is a subset of the market.
We have seen interest not only from Canadian companies with Turkish-Canadian management leadership in place — I am thinking of several from Western Canada in that category — but also from across corporate Canada in the full range of sectors that you would certainly hope and expect to be interested in an emerging market of this particular nature.
I do not need to mention here the names of Canada's corporate leaders in some of our largest companies active around the globe that are also active in the Turkish market, but be it in aerospace, telecommunications or other sectors, they are already there, as are our infrastructure and engineering specialists. We have a very broad base from which we can grow the relationship, and that is not necessarily hinged on some of the more personal ties between Canadians and Turks.
[Translation]
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: My second question was whether there have been any Canadian trade missions in the past few years?
[English]
Mr. Kur: Thank you very much for that excellent question as well. We had the pleasure of preparing a mission to Ankara and Istanbul that was executed under the leadership of Minister Van Loan, when he was International Trade Minister, in December of 2010. It is the most recent trade mission that has visited Turkey. It was at that time that our new consulate in Istanbul was opened. Shortly thereafter, Export Development Canada opened its representative office within the consulate.
Senator Finley: I actually have five questions, but they are very short, I promise. For those who did not have a break, just one very quick question.
The parliamentary system in Turkey is unicameral, not bicameral, right? There is no upper house?
Mr. Kur: Unicameral. The Grand National Assembly.
Senator Finley: In other countries that we have studied in this way, we have found very significant differences when you go below the federal or national level in terms of government interests in industry and investment. I think there are 81 administrative areas in Turkey. Do they have, for example, the same power that provinces or states would have in Canada or the United States?
Mr. Bailey: It is like the French system; it is a unitary system.
Mr. Kur: A unitary system. That is not to say that, at the sub-national level, there are not roles to play in regulatory processes that would impact Canadian businesses, but it is very much a unitary system.
Senator Finley: The real concentration would be at the federal level. I will not go deeply into education, but in Brazil we found out that you had to pay to go to high school but not to university, which, to us, seems backwards. In Turkey, is it the traditional primary, secondary, college or university system, and who pays for what? The percentage of GDP that Turkey allocates to education is very small. It is about one hundred and thirtieth in the world, I think.
Mr. Kur: To the best of my knowledge, there is that kind of classical educational system, provided for through public funds. We will check.
There have been announcements in Turkey of government investment — potentially upwards of $7 billion — to install and use new technology in Turkish classrooms. I think there is, as we have seen through these types of announcements, a great deal of interest on the part of the Turkish authorities to strive to improve, wherever possible, the educational system offered to their students.
Senator Finley: Do you have access to data that you could send us after this meeting in regard to penetration in terms of education and graduation?
My related question is: What is the level, regionally and globally, of Internet penetration in Turkey? Would you consider it to be low, medium, high? Again, you could perhaps respond to that later.
Finally, I know that we and Turkey are both members of a variety of higher-level organizations. In terms of Canada's history of bilateral agreements with Turkey, we used to have one — I do not know if it is still extant or not — called the Maple Leaf program to help with military purchasing. What has our history been in terms of bilateral agreements with the Turks?
Mr. Kur: Perhaps I may just take a moment to review the actual bilateral agreements that Canada already has with Turkey, which are: an air transport agreement, which resulted in the establishment of direct flights between Toronto and Istanbul; an agreement on the avoidance of double taxation; an agreement on social security and an agreement on the peaceful uses of nuclear energy. Those are the bilateral treaties that we have in place. Other Canadian government agencies or organizations, such as the Canadian Commercial Corporation and Export Development Canada, might also have their own organizational agreements in place. In terms of defence procurement or things of that nature, we could certainly look into that to respond to you in terms of what types of agreements exist, perhaps more in the context of an MOU or something of that nature, between various Canadian entities and their Turkish counterparts.
Senator Finley: I, and I am sure the rest of the committee, would find that valuable.
Senator Downe: In addition to those agreements, I know we used to and might still train some of their military, particularly their air force. Is that possible for you to find out? If not, we will ask DND if we have any training agreement with them.
The Chair: Mr. Kur, you can see that there is an appetite to learn more about Turkey and the relationship. You, assisted by a very able team, have done an excellent job in starting our study. We will come back to you, I am sure, on specifics, but this gives us an overview that then can lead to specific witnesses. We might ask you to come back at some point. Thank you for the information and for coming before the committee on not totally short notice but shorter than we would have liked. Thank you very much.
Senators, I caution you on two things: One, if you have witnesses that you would specifically like on Turkey, please give them to the clerk. Two, we understand that we will be receiving the Panama free trade agreement. I am not certain what day it will hit the committee, but we will have to factor that in with our Turkey study.
(The committee adjourned.)