Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Energy, the Environment and Natural Resources
Issue 44 - Evidence - May 9, 2013
OTTAWA, Thursday, May 9, 2013
The Standing Senate Committee on Energy, the Environment and Natural Resources, to which was referred Bill C- 47, An Act to enact the Nunavut Planning and Project Assessment Act and the Northwest Territories Surface Rights Board Act and to make related and consequential amendments to other Acts, met this day, at 9:04 a.m., to give clause-by-clause consideration to the bill.
Senator Richard Neufeld (Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Chair: Welcome to this meeting of the Standing Senate Committee on Energy, the Environment and Natural Resources. My name is Richard Neufeld, I represent the province of British Columbia and I am chair of this committee.
I would like to welcome honourable senators, any members of the public with us in the room and viewers across the country watching on television. I will now ask senators to introduce themselves. I will begin by introducing the deputy chair, Senator Grant Mitchell from Alberta.
Senator MacDonald: Michael MacDonald, Nova Scotia.
Senator Ringuette: Pierrette Ringuette, New Brunswick.
Senator Patterson: Dennis Patterson, Nunavut.
Senator Wallace: John Wallace, New Brunswick.
Senator Seidman: Judith Seidman, Montreal, Quebec.
Senator Unger: Betty Unger, Alberta.
Senator Raine: Nancy Greene Raine, B.C.
The Chair: I would also like to introduce our staff, beginning with the clerk Lynn Gordon, and our two Library of Parliament analysts, Sam Banks and Mark LeBlanc.
Bill C-47, An Act to enact the Nunavut Planning and Project Assessment Act and the Northwest Territories Surface Rights Board Act and to make related and consequential amendments to other Acts, was referred to our committee on April 16, 2013. Honourable senators will recall that we heard from the Minister of Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development, the Honourable Bernard Valcourt, and officials from his ministry, the Governments of Nunavut and the Northwest Territories, the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers, the Mining Association of Canada, Nunavut Tunngavik Incorporated and the Nunavut Impact Review Board. We also received a written submission from Alternatives North.
This is a rather technical bill. As we have heard many times, it has been 10 years in the making and is the result of a process that has been described as a model for consultation. We are now at a stage where we will begin going through the bill clause by clause.
Before we do this, I would like to remind members around the table that if at any point a senator is not clear where we are in the process, please ask for clarification and we will find that for you.
As chair I will do my utmost to ensure all senators wishing to speak have an opportunity to do so. For this, however, I will depend on your cooperation and will ask all of you to keep your remarks to the points and as brief as possible.
Finally, I wish to remind all honourable senators that if there is ever any uncertainty as to the result of a voice vote or a show of hands I will request a roll-call vote, which provides clear results.
In the interests of time I ask members around the table, if they are agreeable, to agree to the grouping of clauses as set out in the table of provisions of the bill, Part 1 and Part 2. Are we agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Before starting, are there any questions? Seeing none, we will begin.
Is it agreed that the committee proceed to clause-by-clause consideration of Bill C-47, An Act to enact the Nunavut Planning and Project Assessment Act and the Northwest Territories Surface Rights Board Act and to make related and consequential amendments to other Acts?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Shall the title stand postponed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Shall clause 1, which contains the short title, stand postponed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Shall Part 1, containing clauses 2 to 10, pages 1 to 123, carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Shall Part 2, containing clause 11, carry? Those are pages 123 to 164. Is that agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Shall the related amendments to the Yukon Surface Rights Board Act, clauses 12 to 16 on pages 164 and 165, carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Shall the consequential amendments of clauses 17, 18 and 19 carry? That is on page 166.
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Shall clause 20 carry? That is on page 167.
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Shall the schedule carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Shall clause 1, which contains the short title, carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Shall the title carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Shall the bill carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Is it agreed that I report the bill to the Senate?
Senator Ringuette: Chair, I do not want to be the devil's advocate here, but could we put a remark or a comment in regard to the fees?
Unfortunately I was in the Senate when the minister and the department were here. However, I think there may be an issue and perhaps we should make a comment to the department that they should provide information to the different entities in relation to the possibility and means of setting fees for the services that any developer may need in order to get agreement to further their exploration.
You will remember that I inquired in relation to fees and royalties. They are not collecting fees right now; they are only relying on the federal government with regard to the money they have to work with. Just like in other areas of the country, there are user fees in relation to environmental assessment and so forth.
I think the department should provide assistance and information, and maybe it is a way for them to have the necessary funds and also a way for the federal government not to be the sole provider of these funds for the operation of those entities.
The Chair: Senator Patterson has been highly involved in the negotiations on this. Could I ask for your opinion here?
Senator Patterson: Senator Ringuette, I believe, is referring to the submissions we got from the Nunavut Impact Review Board, which is the main environmental review board in Nunavut, and probably the most important board in this bill. We did hear evidence that the surface rights tribunals that are provided for in Yukon and N.W.T. have been rarely used; that issue has rarely come up and probably will be rarely used.
However, the Nunavut Impact Review Board did make strong presentations to the committee that there would be increased costs arising from the implementation of this bill and that they had a lot on their plate with all the developments that are going on, and they were concerned about funding. To that extent, I think the honourable senator has hit on an issue that will be important in the implementation of the bill.
We also heard, though, in their evidence, that they are in negotiations with the department on fees. An implementation panel was set up under the land claim that they are actively negotiating with on the question of resources for the board. I believe it is fair to say that the subject of the costs of implementing the bill is not in the bill before us. The budget for the board is the department's responsibility.
I know as well that some consideration has been given to the possibility of finding a way for industry to pay. That is a model that I believe is used in Alaska, where developers pay costs towards the environmental process. However, so far that has not been done in Canada. The problem is that I believe there can be an appearance of conflict if the developer is paying for the regulatory process, directly or indirectly.
While I think the issue is important, and it is appropriately raised here as we are about to approve the bill, I am not sure that we have anything before us in evidence from the committee that would suggest that process, what I would call a user pay process. I do not believe there is any evidence that the committee has heard, and I do not believe the Nunavut Impact Review Board suggested that. They said the minister and the department has to fund the implementation process. They did not say industry should fund it.
I am a bit hesitant to support an observation that the committee would make about having industry pay without any evidence having been presented to us by witnesses on that idea.
With all respect to Senator Ringuette, it is noteworthy that this be put on the record. We may, as a committee, have the opportunity to review the implementation of this bill, or indeed review this bill, or be given amendments to consider on this bill. However, I do not think we have had any evidence before us that would justify us putting that idea into, say, an observation at this point, with all respect to Senator Ringuette.
The Chair: I do not think there is a request for an amendment to the bill. I think there is a request for a letter, maybe even from our committee, stating that these are some of the things we heard about funding through fees, which, to be frank, is not uncommon in the province I come from, for industry to pay a fee. I think that ability is there in the bill for government and the impact review board to be able to negotiate those things. We could write a letter of observation to that effect. We cannot tie a financial thing to it because we cannot put a financial thing on the Crown, but we could, I think, write a fairly brief letter.
We would like to report the bill. Is there any other discussion?
Senator Ringuette: Chair, I agree with your suggestion. It is not directly related to clause-by-clause consideration of the bill. I agree with you that maybe our concern could be highlighted in a letter to the minister. I have read the testimony saying that there is no money.
There is an impasse there. What is happening in other jurisdictions in the country with regard to fees to compensate for the operation should be highlighted, and in a letter, if that would be okay.
Senator Patterson: Senator Ringuette is absolutely correct that the costs of implementing this bill and doing it properly was a major issue that was presented to this committee by the Nunavut Impact Review Board, and indeed by the planning commission and the Nunavut Impact Review Board before the House of Commons committee. Therefore, I have no problem in recommending to the steering committee that a letter be drafted on this issue on behalf of the committee to reinforce, with the department and the minister, the need to find ways to properly implement the bill and to cover the costs of the registry and other initiatives required by the bill.
I would say, though, that our letter should reflect what has been presented to us in the evidence by witnesses before this committee.
The Chair: Is everybody agreeable that the steering committee can draft that letter?
Is it agreed that I report the bill to the Senate?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Thank you very much.
(The committee adjourned.)