Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Legal and Constitutional Affairs
Issue 36 - Evidence for May 9, 2013
OTTAWA, Thursday, May 9, 2013
The Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs, to which were referred Bill S-16, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (trafficking in contraband tobacco); and Bill C-299, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (kidnapping of young person), met this day, at 10:32 a.m., to give consideration to the bills.
Senator Bob Runciman (Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Chair: Good morning and welcome, colleagues, invited guests, and members of the general public who are following today's proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs. This morning we will complete clause-by-clause consideration of Bill S-16, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (trafficking in contraband tobacco), following which we will resume our consideration of Bill C-299, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (kidnapping of young person). This will be our second meeting on this bill.
I advise members that we have a representative from Justice Canada with us today, Mr. Paul Saint-Denis, Senior Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section. If there are any technical questions, Mr. Saint-Denis will be more than happy to respond.
Is it agreed that the committee proceed to clause-by-clause consideration of Bill S-16, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (trafficking in contraband tobacco)?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Shall the title stand postponed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Shall clause 1, which contains the short title, stand postponed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Shall clause 2 carry?
Some Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Senator Joyal: On division.
The Chair: Carried, on division.
Shall clause 3 carry?
Some Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Carried, on division.
Shall clause 4 carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Carried.
Shall clause 1, which contains the short title, carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Carried.
Shall the title carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Carried.
Shall the bill carry?
Senator Joyal: On division.
Some Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Carried, on division.
Are there any observations that the committee wishes to append to the committee's report?
Senator Baker: During our hearings, I am sure that Senator White and Senator Dagenais were struck by the testimony of Superintendent Carson Pardy, Director of Operations, OPP East Region, when he responded to a question regarding a case adjudicated by the Ontario Court of Justice called R. v. Boudreau, 2006 CarswellOnt 8965.
The Chair: I am sorry, Senator Baker, may I ask for clarification? Are you suggesting that you wish to append an observation or observations?
Senator Baker: That is exactly what I am putting forward.
The Chair: I should advise that we have the option under rule 12-16(d) to go in camera to conduct the conversation or we can discuss the observations in public. I leave it up to the committee to decide.
Senator Baker: In public would be just as well because it involves the testimony given by the OPP.
The Chair: Are members fine with that? Okay, please proceed.
Senator Baker: The judge in that case had thrown out all of the evidence of the contraband tobacco, which amounted to over 60,000 cigarettes that were found in two vehicles. The primary reason given by the trial judge was that the OPP officers in their jurisdiction did not have the authority to conduct a search of a vehicle under section 99(1) (f) of the act. The RCMP has that statutory authority. The judge referenced the fact that the standard used in that section for searching a vehicle is "reasonable suspicion," whereas Senator White pointed out, under the Criminal Code provisions it is "belief." You must have stronger grounds to believe than just a suspicion.
Looking at other case law, I found that police forces in Quebec are under the same restriction. The testimony we heard was that the coordinated approach is working well — there is no doubt about that — with customs and excise officials and the RCMP. However, to have evidence thrown out at trial because an OPP officer or an officer from Quebec does not have the standing of a summer student working for Customs Canada under the Customs Act or of the RCMP should certainly not be tolerated. I do not like a provision that says a police officer can search a vehicle based on suspicion, but that is in the Customs Act. The authority is given to anyone who is operating under the Customs Act. It is also in the Excise Act, but the same restriction lies on the definition of "officer." An officer must be an RCMP officer or someone identified with authority under the act.
The committee should append an observation to the report that the House of Commons or the government should in the future consider amending those two acts to allow for the automatic inclusion of the Sûreté in Quebec and the OPP, given that all the case law we look at in respect of this bill involves the provinces of Ontario and Quebec, and to include those officers under the definition of "officer" in both federal acts. That is my submission.
Senator White: I would agree. It has been seen as a deficiency in the legislation by the witnesses. I am pleased to have a dialogue around observations versus holding up the legislation. I think it would be a step forward and I do not see a negative side to our government looking at that as well. In investigating this matter, we have seen that Ontario and Quebec are two of the most challenging provinces, and I think expanding that opportunity for the two large provincial police services would certainly make it much easier for them to deal with the issues they are facing.
Senator Joyal: Not only do I concur, but we could not make the amendments because the Excise Tax Act is not in front of us. What is in front of us is the Criminal Code. Even though we want to cure the problem, we cannot cure it the way the bill is presented to us because they are only amendments to the Criminal Code. This is the only way we can signal our consensus on this. Even the House of Commons cannot cure it unless there is a new initiative in terms of amendments to the Excise Tax Act. At this stage, I think it is the only way for us to signal our agreement that those amendments should be brought to the Excise Tax Act.
The Chair: I think we have a consensus on that.
Senator Baker: Mr. Chair, we recognize that under the Excise Tax Act the minister has the authority to designate police forces; the very able representative from Justice Canada is nodding his head. The Customs Act, to my knowledge, does not contain that provision. Apart from that, I think the evidence given to us by the OPP was that a conclusion could be drawn from the evidence that the inclusion under the definition of "officer" — and I will give the case law to the people at the table so they can copy from it directly — should include the police forces of Ontario and Quebec.
The Chair: Do you have any specific wording that you want to propose?
Senator Baker: I think we would all agree that the specific wording should be up to the minister if and when an amendment is brought forward, but with the understanding that it should address the problem in case law that we are giving examples of. It should address the problem so that there is recognition of not just the RCMP in addition to those who are given authority under both of the other acts, but should include the police forces of Quebec and Ontario who have to deal with this problem on a daily basis.
Senator Joyal: I hate to disagree with my learned colleague, but I say "any provincial police" would be safer because in the Maritimes we have seen it. I think it would be better to put it in the broader terms.
Senator Baker: I agree with you.
Senator Joyal: I hate to do that, but I think it should be left to the general term of "provincial police."
The Chair: Do we agree that the steering committee be empowered to approve the final versions of the observations? We can make sure they are in conformity to what you are proposing here today. Is it agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Is it agreed that this bill be reported, with observations, to the Senate?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Agreed.
Senator Joyal: Mr. Chair, since there will be observations, I wonder if there is a need for you to report immediately. I suggest that, maybe on both sides, Senator White and Senator Baker can review the text of the observations so that it could be done before the tabling of the bill.
The Chair: Sure.
Senator Joyal: If you are not in a hurry to table it today, it could be done at the first sitting when we come back.
The Chair: Does the sponsor have any problem with that?
Senator White: No problem.
The Chair: That is the course we will follow. We may need translation time, the clerk advises me.
I would like to move right into the next item. Chief, would you mind coming forward, please? I know we have some time challenges today, so we would like to deal with these issues as expeditiously as possible.
We will now resume our consideration of Bill C-299, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (kidnapping of a young person). This bill proposes a mandatory minimum punishment of five years when the victim is under 16 years of age, unless the person committing the offence is not a parent or legal guardian.
We are fortunate today to have with us Rodney B. Freeman, Chief of the Woodstock Police Service.
Welcome, chief. Good to have you here. I believe you have an opening statement.
Rodney B. Freeman, Chief, Woodstock Police Service: I do.
Mr. Chair, senators, ladies and gentlemen, let me begin by thanking each of you on the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs for inviting me to appear today to comment on this very important issue. It is truly a remarkable honour and a privilege for me to be here with you. My name is Rodney Freeman and I am the very proud Chief of Police for the City of Woodstock.
To give you some brief background, at 3:30 in the afternoon on April 8, 2009, 8-year-old Victoria Stafford was abducted while just beginning to walk home from her elementary school. She was lured to a parked vehicle by Terri- Lynne McClintic on the pretext of seeing a puppy. Waiting in the vehicle was her accomplice, Michael Rafferty. Once in the car, Victoria was forcibly pushed into the back seat and immediately forced to the floor between the seats.
Within mere minutes, Victoria was taken from Woodstock eastbound on Highway 401, eventually arriving in an isolated area just outside of Mount Forest, Ontario, 130 kilometres from the point she had been kidnapped. For approximately two and a half hours, Victoria endured the terror of being forcibly taken by strangers away from her mother, brother, family, friends and our city. While seated on the back floor concealed with a jacket, she was constantly bullied and terrorized by Michael Rafferty to keep her controlled and hidden from any potential witnesses. All the while, Terri-Lynne McClintic provided false comfort to Victoria, fully knowing the horror that laid ahead for the little girl.
Once they reached their hidden destination near Mount Forest, this horrific crime continued with Victoria being repeatedly and violently raped by Rafferty. After brutalizing Victoria in unspeakable ways, together they murdered Victoria with repeated hammer strikes to her head. Her broken body was put into garbage bags and concealed under rocks by her abductors. After the largest police ground search in the history of Ontario, we found Victoria's body 103 days later on July 19, 2009. She was then returned to her family to be laid to rest with dignity.
On a guilty plea to first-degree murder, McClintic was given a life sentence. Rafferty, after a three month jury trial ending last May, was convicted of aggravated sexual assault, kidnapping and first-degree murder. He was sentenced to life imprisonment with no parole for 25 years.
I am here before you today to speak for Victoria because her innocent life was taken by two of the most evil offenders I have ever encountered. I also speak on behalf of her family, all law enforcement personnel involved in the three-year investigation and on behalf of our community, all of whom who suffered enormous pain and anguish due to the heinous crime that began with the kidnapping of an innocent 8-year-old girl.
For the protection of our country's most vulnerable citizens, our children, I hope that my contribution to your deliberation in some small way results in crime prevention strategies being created to put a stop to tragedies such as Victoria's from happening in the first place. Victoria suffered a fate that no child on this earth should ever have to endure. These are measures in the form of a mandatory five-year prison sentence being created to deter potential offenders from victimizing our children anywhere in this country, measures being taken to hold fully accountable before a court of law those evil offenders who victimize our children.
Provincially, my inspector of police operations, Bill Renton, and others are working with our local MPP, Ernie Hardeman, to create what we hope will be Tori's law, requiring all elementary schools to be equipped with video surveillance systems to deter offenders from preying on our schoolchildren and to provide valuable video evidence for investigators where our children are victimized. Video evidence provided to our investigators during the Woodstock investigation was critically important in the early stages of Victoria's absence and kidnapping.
In recent months, I am aware of similar attempted abduction reports — and this is just locally, in our Woodstock/ Durham region and Guelph areas — where an 8-year-old female was approached by an adult male but quickly fled home. We have a person in custody. That case is still before the courts. The investigation revealed that a suspect vehicle had stalked a specific school area up to nine times before and after school hours, those specific time frames. Video evidence was incredibly helpful in this case in locating and arresting the offender.
Back in March, in the City of Ajax, another case in Durham region, an 11-year-old female was approached by a male claiming he was instructed by the child's mother to pick her up from school. This happened right in front of a school. This was another male-female team of offenders. The female was waiting in the car. The child became suspicious because the adult male who had approached her did not know the family password, thankfully. The child became suspicious and the offenders fled. This incident occurred right on school property, but there was no video surveillance system.
In April, Chatham-Kent Police investigated two separate incidents where a suspicious male — the description of the male is the same in both incidents — approached two children, one being a 9-year-old female and another being a 12- year-old male, while they were also walking home from school. He had unsuccessfully tried to lure them to his vehicle.
I will stray from my script for one minute. I do believe that in our country of Canada, children have every right to be able to go to and from school, Monday through Friday. When we, as parents, send our children out to school, we have every expectation that our children will return safely to us at the end of the day.
As chief of police, I fully support Bill C-299's suggested legislative amendment, which will contribute to making Canada's communities safer and will support the safeguarding of our children. Any criminal act in which a stranger abducts a child less than 16 years of age immediately poses a direct and deadly threat to the victim's life. In our case, the murderers purchased the hammer used to kill Victoria before they reached their final destination, knowing — this came out as evidence in court, and this is a quote — "we couldn't keep her and we couldn't let her go." They knew what was going to happen.
Canadians need to know that their police services and government officials at all levels are working together to ensure their safety and, in particular, the safety of our children and others who are most vulnerable. This is why I am here today. My citizens of Woodstock and all Canadians want to be reassured that our children are safe in their neighbourhoods but, if victimized, that the offenders will be dealt with firmly by the criminal justice system and will face the appropriate consequences for serious criminal acts, such as a minimum five-year prison sentence for kidnapping a child under 16 years of age.
The Chair: Thank you, chief. We will begin the questions with Senator Boisvenu.
[Translation]
Senator Boisvenu: Thank you very much for your testimony. Victoria's story has become known across Canada. In Quebec, we have Cédrika Provencher from Trois-Rivières, where the police conducted their investigation for months on end and we have never found out what happened.
In that case, the police officers were criticized because they claimed the girl was a runaway and, since experts in disappearance got involved only later, the investigation stalled for a long time. The municipal police force started the investigation, which was then transferred to the Sûreté du Québec. As a result, there was a delay and people think that is the reason why Cédrika Provencher's disappearance has still not been solved.
Did you have a similar experience in Victoria's case? Did local police officers start the investigation and then the OPP intervened with the disappearance experts? Is that what happened?
[English]
Mr. Freeman: Thank you for the question. I would love the opportunity to respond.
Given the benefit of hindsight and the information that we now have, Victoria was abducted as she left school at 3:30 in the afternoon. When she did not show up back at home, her mother and grandmother went out to do a search themselves for Victoria, thinking, as so often is the case, that she was playing with friends somewhere and just had not gotten home.
At 6:04 p.m., the grandmother reported Victoria missing to our local police headquarters. That is when the Woodstock Police Service first initiated our investigation. The officers who took the reports immediately sensed there was something different about this investigation. Hundreds of people are reported missing in Woodstock each year, and 99.99 per cent of them are resolved without any criminality. However, the officers immediately sensed something was particularly wrong with this investigation.
We called in off-duty officers, volunteer firefighters and community volunteers. We conducted a widespread ground search. We had received different reports from witnesses in our city who thought they had seen Victoria in different parts of the city, in particular one part in the south end of our city, so officers and volunteers focused their search in that area.
I was notified about what was going on at about 8:00. My instructions to the officers were to use whatever resources were required to bring Victoria home. I also sensed from the circumstances that something was wrong.
That same night, we called for an AMBER Alert. We were advised by the OPP that the criteria at that time did not fit our circumstance; it was too narrow, too tight. Since then, I have sat on committees to broaden those criteria so that a missing child will more easily fit into an AMBER Alert program.
We also called in the OPP helicopter that night and called on a few of the local OPP resources to assist us in the investigation. Our own police service had about 20 detectives working on the investigation right off the bat, following up leads. We did not even realize Victoria had been abducted until about 18 hours later, when we discovered video surveillance tape that is now infamous, showing the woman in the white puffy jacket walking away with Victoria from the school. Then we realized we had an adult taking Victoria, but we still did not know for what purpose. We had a wide shopping list of possible reasons why Victoria had been taken. The drug culture factored into our investigation, as did family issues. Stranger abduction was always on the list, but at that early point, it was nowhere near the top of the list.
As the investigation continued to unfold, tips from the public came in at a very quick rate. That necessitated a call to the OPP for additional investigative resources. Approximately a week later, we had 500 investigators from the OPP.
I held out hope for a month that we would find Victoria alive and that she would show up in the middle of the night in a variety store or hospital somewhere. I held out that hope for a month. We now know, in hindsight, that as we were being notified that Victoria was missing, the offenders were probably just arriving in Mount Forest with Victoria. As we were ramping up our investigation, Victoria was brutalized and murdered, and the offenders were back in our city of Woodstock no later than 9:00 that night. We were at the early stages of a serious missing person investigation, and we were already calling on a variety of different resources locally, regionally, from Waterloo region and London police, as well as the OPP.
Senator, I can assure you that from the very second police became aware of Victoria's unexplained absence there was no resource that was not tapped into. We had eventually 1,100 police officers, 500 civilian support staff, probably in the range of $18 million to $20 million worth of investigation surrounding Victoria's absence. Initially it was just an absence. Then we learned it was kidnapping and murder.
Senator McIntyre: I understand that you are comfortable with Bill C-16 calling for a minimum sentence of five years in the case of a kidnapping involving a person under the age of 16 years of age. Section 279 calls for a seven-year sentence imposed for second or subsequent offences when a firearm is used. In your opinion, is a seven-year sentence reasonable in the case of second or subsequent offences? If not, do you think the code should be amended to reflect the severity of the act itself?
Mr. Freeman: Senator, I am obviously very emotionally tied into this investigation. My first day as chief of police in Woodstock was the day we found Victoria's body, July 19, 2009. I have become close to her family, and she was the sweetest kid I never got the opportunity to meet.
As far as I and many other Canadians are concerned, if they pose that level of threat to our children, most of our community and Canadian society would like to see those people locked up for a very long time, where, perhaps, they can receive the rehabilitation measures that are required, if possible. We cannot tolerate having those people on the streets mixing with our children. They need to be taken out of our society until either the personal problems can be addressed or they receive appropriate punishment. I think five years is simply a start for a stranger abduction of a child.
Senator McIntyre: What about for a second or subsequent offence?
Mr. Freeman: For a second or subsequent offence, seven years is not enough. It should be 10 or 15 years, minimum. It also depends on the circumstances because our horrific event started with the one offence of kidnapping a child under 16 years of age. It quickly compounded into additional very serious offences that compounded that sentence.
Senator Joyal: We have been told that the most critical time after a kidnapping is the immediate hours following the kidnapping. As you said, the kid is with friends playing, and he or she will be late for dinner. As you recognize, those are the critical hours.
I wonder whether the protocol followed by police in the context of a reported missing child should be reviewed with respect to the inherent danger of misreading the situation, for example, the presumption during the first hours that the kid has stopped somewhere to play or has been distracted on his or her way home. What do you suggest in that context? Do you have specific recommendations? You should be well positioned to inform us on that.
Mr. Freeman: I have gone over our investigation a thousand times in the middle of the night and tried to determine what to do differently, if we did do anything differently. In our particular case, given the information we had at the time and the circumstances, I do not think we would have done anything differently.
To give you an idea of the magnitude of the problem, approximately 47,000 children were reported missing in 2011. Twenty-five of those cases were thought to be stranger abductions. Some of those children have not yet been recovered. When you have a missing child, you have a vast array of possible legitimate reasons and you have to start conducting interviews to determine who last saw the child and which direction he or she was going. That is what my officers were doing in the early hours, namely, following every single possible sighting reported to us. We were notifying the media to get the information out that we were looking for this missing girl, while not knowing at that point that it was an abduction and not having a suspect vehicle. We were also investigating family members, friends and neighbours to find the root cause of her absence.
As I say, everyone from the first step of this investigation realized how serious it was, and there was no hesitation to call on whatever resources were required, including helicopters, volunteers, searchers and investigators. There were no holds barred.
Senator Joyal: At which point do you report a child missing? For example, you get a report from a family — and we will keep it in general terms to avoid becoming emotional for one single person, as you will understand. At which point do you come to the conclusion that you report the child missing to everyone that could be alerted, could help you and tip you with information that would be helpful?
Mr. Freeman: It is the lead investigator's call to determine what they are finding out through interviews of friends, family and neighbours. The age of the child is a big determining factor. The thing that made this unique is Victoria was eight years old. She was not a 14-year-old who perhaps had a history of running away or behaviour problems. You have to look at each investigation and the dynamics within each investigation to make that call.
However, the media is a very valuable resource for us that we do not hesitate to tap into when the circumstances are appropriate.
Senator Joyal: You have talked about video surveillance around schools. Could you explain what you mean by that and how far it goes?
Mr. Freeman: We hope to develop Tori's law, likely through a provincial law. That is where we have started. We would love to see it go across the country, but we will start it provincially. We are hoping to require every existing elementary school to install a basic video camera surveillance system capturing the exits, part of the schoolyard and the parking lot. The only time we would tap into that video evidence would be when we are investigating a criminal offence.
My understanding is that many of the school boards that are building new schools are including video surveillance systems, but what about schools that have been in existence for 15 or 20 years? Victoria's school did not have a video surveillance system. That valuable clip of evidence we got was from a high school 300 metres up the road. That was our first piece of solid evidence. That was our first break in the case. We are not looking to impose any unnecessary costs on taxpayers, but we use video surveillance to protect parking lots and vehicles. In Oxford County, they are talking about putting up video surveillance at the library to reduce vandalism. In my view, our children are much more valuable and a higher priority than vandalism. If we are doing that for vandalism, should we not be doing that for our children?
Senator Joyal: Of course.
Did you have discussions with the school authorities about making children aware that they should never accept the invitation of a stranger to go into a car or go for a walk or whatever? On the basis of your experience, from what I read in your brief, it seems it is recurring. Did you develop some kind of awareness program for the children in the school so they would not do that or that they should agree with their parents on a password, or something, so that the children are made aware that there is a risk there?
Mr. Freeman: I am 56 years old, senator, and I remember school street safety programs when I was in elementary school. This is not new to the school system; these stranger-danger programs are ingrained in the school system. In fact, in Woodstock we already had a traditional program that we ramped up after Victoria's disappearance. At the same time, we had to be sensitive and not make the kids too frightened.
Senator Joyal: Yes, not to traumatize the kids.
Mr. Freeman: Exactly. Our community suffered deeply over Victoria's murder, and for a long time still to come, I am sure, parents will keep an extra eye on their children. I have 12- and 13-year-old sons myself. They were on a short leash and now they are on a very short leash. It is only to protect them, and they understand it. We as police services constantly promote parents and teachers to encourage kids to stay safe, stay away from strangers and devise a family password.
Senator White: My question is about whether this would have an impact. Some of the dialogue that took place in the other place was about family abductions or familial abductions. Do you have an opinion as to whether this legislation goes far enough just focusing on stranger abductions? Should it have gone further?
Mr. Freeman: In a familial type of abduction there are different dynamics at play. It should be up to the judge and jury determining those specific kidnapping cases because it is a different set of emotions and dynamics. A stranger abduction, I think we all know around this table, is generally for a sexual purpose. When a stranger abducts a child who is under 16 years of age, once they have committed that crime their instinct is to get away. It is not just to injure the victim but to kill the victim so the victim cannot be a witness, as in this particular case.
Senator White: Do you think this legislation could be helpful in combatting the human trafficking/pimping that goes on in some cases, for example where people use force to take a young person under 16, often with other issues, and push them into the illegal sex trade?
Mr. Freeman: Absolutely, senator. There are certain similarities in those types of cases, too, because a lot of times that is for a sexual purpose also.
Senator White: Thank you for being here, chief.
Senator Batters: Thank you very much, chief, for being here today, and thank you very much for the work you did on this very tragic case and for the comfort you provided for that family.
I want to bring to the attention of this committee a very recent case from my home province, Saskatchewan. In Yorkton, there was a stranger abduction situation. As reported in the Regina Leader-Post, Melvin Koroluk was sentenced in a Yorkton courtroom at the end of April. He was a first time offender and received two years less six days in jail because he had a few days credit for time served after he pled guilty. In this particular case, he had abducted a little girl for a brief time. It was clear what his intentions were, but luckily the girl got away. There was no additional charge to be laid there. Is that your understanding of the type of case we are trying to capture here, that is, the case where luckily the person got away and a sexual assault or attempted murder was not attempted? Is that the sort of case we are trying to capture here?
Mr. Freeman: That is exactly it. If a witness had seen Victoria being pushed forcibly into the back of this car, and if — we are talking about "ifs" — we had been able to stop that vehicle before it hit the 401, all we would have had at that point was a stranger abduction of a child under 16. We now know what unfolded after that because we were not there.
In this particular case, with this young girl escaping, we know what was going to happen and what could have happened. We know that our kids, as much as we try to street-proof them, can easily be lured to a car. If we have offenders intent on doing that type of vicious criminal act, I think the least we can expect as parents, senators and law enforcers is a five-year minimum sentence for exactly that type of case.
Senator Batters: In this particular case the media reported that the judge stated this particular convicted individual was unable to indicate concrete self-management strategies to ensure this type of behaviour would never occur again and suggested that the individual should never be around children, yet he got a sentence of two years less a day.
I want to ask you about the new provincial law that you are helping to promote. You said you understand that new schools are already including those types of video surveillance, but why not include that in that provincial law just to make sure that that is a factor?
Mr. Freeman: That would be our hope because we spoke with the Thames Valley School Board, the public school board. We have not gone over to the separate school side yet, so I do not know if they do the same thing. Most of the facilities now are modern in terms of the technology in the schools over and above surveillance systems. It is our hope that every elementary school, period — from the past and in the future — has a basic package. We are only asking for a basic package.
[Translation]
Senator Dagenais: Thank you, Mr. Freeman for your testimony. I know that these investigations are not easy for police officers; they are emotionally charged investigations because you are also fathers and I am sure that you used everything in your power to find the person.
From your testimony, I understand that the girl had left school at 3 p.m. and that her parents already looked for her before they called you around 6 p.m. You said that you called for an orange alert. Is that the AMBER alert?
[English]
Mr. Freeman: The AMBER Alert program was narrow in focus. You had to know for sure that your victim was the victim of a criminal offence; you had to have some kind of description of an offender or a vehicle; and you had to know that your victim was in imminent danger. It was narrowly focused back then. When we presented Victoria's case to the OPP to get an AMBER Alert issued, that evening, within hours of our report, they said we did not meet the criteria and were not allowed to use the program. Since then everyone has recognized that it was too narrow and that we should have had the ability, with the bare information that we had, to use the AMBER Alert media system to broadcast it quickly provincially.
In the absence of being able to access to the AMBER Alert program through the OPP, we have a strong relationship with our local and regional media. We were able to get the word out quickly that we were investigating a missing 8- year-old girl and needed the public's help. There were no obstacles to communicating with the public.
The one and the only good thing that came out of Victoria's investigation was the fact that provincially the AMBER Alert program, that net, has been broadened to capture more cases and will someday down the road assist in saving lives and assisting in investigations.
Senator Frum: Chief, let me also congratulate you on your efforts in passing Tori's law; it does sound like a good idea.
I want to ask you about the case in Guelph that you spoke about in your remarks. That is a case of an attempted kidnapping, not a completed one. I am interested to know if you know what charges are being laid in that case and what kind of penalties might be available.
Mr. Freeman: I believe they are attempted abduction. I spoke with one of the investigators yesterday to make sure I could reference that case. It is before the courts, so I have to be a bit careful on how much we comment on it. However, I would suggest that the offender will be looking at likely a lengthy sentence because there was clear evidence captured on video that there was deliberate stalking going on in that specific time frame, predominantly between three o'clock and four o'clock in the afternoon and on three or four occasions at nine o'clock in the morning.
If a child had been abducted at nine o'clock in the morning, a lot of red flags would have gone up quickly if that child was not in class. There is more leeway at three o'clock or four o'clock in the afternoon, in our case, where the community is not complacent but is maybe accepting a variety of reasons why the child would not come home. That is why we think the offender targeted that specific time frame.
Senator Frum: In your experience, in the case that Senator Batters has referred to where there has been a kidnapping and a sentence of two years less a day — and an attempt is an equally serious crime — are you satisfied with the parameters of sentencing in that crime?
Mr. Freeman: I would have to say yes, without giving it a whole lot of deep thought.
I appeared before the Justice and Human Rights Committee last year here in Parliament. I am looking at the cases we discussed just a few minutes ago, where a child is snatched. This happens right across the country. Some babies are snatched and the danger goes through the roof. The first hours of those investigations are critical. That was proven in our case.
I think that, for those particular cases, it should be black and white that a defenceless child has been abducted by a stranger. We can only imagine what would have happened if law enforcement had not intervened and saved that child or the child had escaped. I think that offender should be a held to a minimum five-year penitentiary term. There can be all kinds of rehabilitation programs and whatever is required in jail, but I think that an individual like that poses such a threat to our communities right across this country that we have to take them out of the population, out of our society, and put them where they can receive the treatment they need or face the accountability that they should.
If there is an attempted abduction, I still have a lot of confidence in the judicial system to weigh all the factors involved in the investigation. These investigations are complex, and there are many different levels and dynamics to them. A jury and judge are still very capable of determining the appropriate sentence.
Senator Frum: You think a sentence of five years might apply in the case of an attempted abduction.
Mr. Freeman: It would work for me as a police chief.
Senator Frum: It would work for me too, but what do you think will happen?
Mr. Freeman: I do not know about that particular case because I do not know enough of the detail.
[Translation]
Senator Boisvenu: Once again, congratulations on your work, chief. In Canada, we have a very complex policing structure, including the RCMP, the provincial, regional, municipal and First Nations police. In Quebec, we have 34 police forces with very complex levels of responsibility.
There are no centralized records in Canada on missing persons. Every province is quite autonomous. Is there no policing structure for this type of crime, knowing that it is often a question of intervening quickly? What do you propose as chief of police to improve police work in terms of structure or intervention? Unsolved missing children cases are the most frustrating for families, and there are a lot of unsolved criminal abductions. An unsolved abduction means that a repeat offender is roaming the streets. Based on your experience, what would you suggest as an improvement?
[English]
Mr. Freeman: In Ontario, we have 53 police services right now. That includes the Ontario Provincial Police and approximately a dozen regional forces, and the rest are municipal forces like mine.
We also have what we refer to as the adequacy standards, which are template policy and procedures for a whole variety of different investigations, including the investigation of missing children. We all have minor variances due to maybe the environment we are in or the size of our organization or the resources available, but we all work together. In Victoria's particular case, we had 32 police forces contribute to successfully resolving this investigation. That is where the 1,100 police officers came from. When we put out the alert that we had this investigation and it was serious, I had police forces calling me from all over Ontario offering help.
I think our structure in terms of our levels of policing and our investigative procedures are all very adequate and better because we are all working from the same play book. There was not for one second any reluctance by any police chief across the province to provide us with the resources we needed, whether they were investigative resources, ground search officers or investigators.
I have armchair quarterbacked my own police service on this investigation many times, and I have been watchful of other investigations. In the province of Ontario, we are in very good shape, but we are dealing with some very evil people. Rafferty had no criminal record before this, and he is now in prison for life. McClintic has a colourful history of violent offences. This evil reared its head in Woodstock momentarily, and it has caused a lifelong impact to many people.
In terms of the police response, we are very strongly tied to that family, extended family included, and I just do not think we could have done better. At the end of the day, we got our two offenders and put them away for life, and we got Victoria returned for a dignified burial.
Senator Baker: With reference to a question asked by Senator Frum. I do not know if we will hear further evidence on the point of whether the attempt would be covered by the provisions of this act or would be covered by the definition of "attempt" in the Criminal Code at subsection 24(1). The punishment, a separate offence completely from committing the act, is under section 463 and you are liable to imprisonment for up to 14 years. On a plain reading of the Criminal Code, it would not be covered by this but would still be a substantial imprisonment, as the chief says.
[Translation]
Senator Rivest: What is the proportion of children who disappeared from school areas? There can be cases that have no connection to schools whatsoever.
[English]
What is the proportion?
Mr. Freeman: In my experience, senator, the few cases I was able to relate to are very recent and very close in proximity to Woodstock. The common theme was kids being approached by strangers going to or coming from school. This is where we as parents allow our kids a little bit of liberty, a little bit of independence, and that seems to be the weak link as to where they are most vulnerable.
We have kids throughout the country that go missing say from a neighbourhood playground or park. That certainly happens, but they seem to be particularly vulnerable on their way home from school or somehow tied to that school environment.
The Chair: Thank you again, chief, for a helpful contribution to our deliberations. It is much appreciated. We wish you well.
Mr. Freeman: Thank you very much, senators. It has been a real privilege to be here. I never thought in my career I would have this opportunity.
The Chair: On our second panel today, senators, please welcome, from the Association of Families of Persons Assassinated or Disappeared, Michel Surprenant, President; Christian Bergeron as an individual; and from the Missing Children's Network, Director General Pina Arcamone.
Please proceed with your opening statements.
[Translation]
Michel Surprenant, President, Association of Families of Persons Assassinated or Disappeared: I am Julie Surprenant's father. She disappeared on November 16, 1999. Here is what I have to say about Bill C-299 and the five- year minimum sentence.
The first thing that comes to mind is that a sentence or jail time should not be a way to keep prisoners warm in the winter, or to allow them to use the time to get tattoos, go to the dentist, get in shape with escort services, and so on, just to end up reoffending.
I think that rehabilitation starts first and foremost with making the offender accountable, and that does not mean crocodile tears ordered by his lawyer.
For instance, Michel Dunn stayed in prison for 17 years, but it took him seven years to assume responsibility for the act he committed. Even then, he did so because he knew that he would not be eligible for parole without first admitting the crime.
Currently, 80 per cent of the prison population are repeat offenders and that is one reason why it makes sense to have a longer sentence in order to make criminals accountable. Criminals who are able to do harm must not be released. When we talk about sex offenders, we know that there is no possible cure. I personally think the longer the sentence is, the better it is.
My understanding is that there will be a sentence for kidnapping independently from assault in this bill. So it will not be a consecutive sentence, but rather a cumulative one.
[English]
The Chair: Ms. Arcamone, do you have an opening statement?
Pina Arcamone, Director General, The Missing Children's Network: Yes.
Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to the committee for allowing me to present today. It is my honour, as Director General of the Missing Children's Network, to be before the Senate committee to speak in favour of Bill C-299, An Act to amend the Criminal Code to recognize the severity of kidnapping of a child under the age of 16 by a stranger and specifically to attach a minimum sentence of five years to anyone convicted of such a crime.
I am also very deeply honoured to be addressing you at this very special time of the year because the month of May is dedicated to missing children. On Saturday, May 25, all around the world, thousands of missing children will be remembered as we commemorate National Missing Children's Day.
Back in 1985, two exceptional women had the courage to say "tears are not enough" when 4-year-old Maurice Viens was kidnapped while playing in front of his house. A man lured the young boy by filling the front seat of his car with a mountain of lollipops and then inviting the young boy to help himself. In his youthful innocence, Maurice made the fatal mistake of accepting the invitation. Five days later, his little body was found. He had been brutally beaten, raped and murdered. His kidnapper was never found, and this horrific tragedy moved two complete strangers to join forces and create the Missing Children's Network.
For the last 28 years, our organization has been supporting and accompanying families that are living every parent's worst nightmare. Based upon the fundamental belief that all children have the right to be safe, the mission of the Missing Children's Network is critical and sharply focused on the four following objectives: supporting families whose child has been abducted by a stranger, kidnapped by a family member or who has run away from home; collaborating with law enforcement and government agencies to locate and recover missing children and return them safely to their families; preventing the abduction, aggression and exploitation of children, as well as reducing the occurrence of runaway youth; and, finally, educating the public about children's personal safety and the prevention of their disappearances.
I am also happy to let you know that as of this morning we have helped law enforcement recover 890 missing children. It is of tremendous pride to know that these children are safely home sleeping in their own beds surrounded by their family members as we speak. We have also helped empower over 160,000 school-aged children with the skills necessary to recognize dangerous situations and avoid becoming victims of aggression.
However, every day in the province of Quebec, where our organization is based, an estimated 22 children are reported missing to law enforcement. Clearly, we must do more and we must do better because our children deserve no less.
Runaway youth account for the majority of missing children reports in our country, and abductions by family members is the most prevalent form of kidnapping. The fact that stranger abductions are rare in Canada is of little comfort to parents and the community.
We must remain aware that such dangers are a constant reality. A stranger abduction is everyone's worst nightmare possible, and time quickly becomes our biggest enemy as measures are quickly put into place to recover this child safe and sound. Every time an incident is reported, it sends shock waves across the country. These incidents remind us all about the vulnerability of children and our responsibility and role as adults to ensure their safety and well-being each and every day of the year.
In the past few years, we have made great strides in Quebec in order to safely recover missing children. Today, law enforcement is better trained and equipped. We have implemented the AMBER Alert program; we created the ADR Alert, an application that enables the public to immediately receive photographs of missing children and their alleged suspects.
Today, missing children alerts can also be received via Facebook, on Twitter or on one's smartphone, thus galvanizing an entire community to be on the lookout for the missing child and also assisting law enforcement in their efforts to recover the child and return him or her to safety. We are also now in the final stages of implementing a brand new tool that will assist us to locate vulnerable children that go missing but whose disappearance does not meet the strict criteria for an AMBER Alert.
In preparing for today, I could not help but think, with all the efforts that we have made in the last few years, what would happen if a stranger kidnapped a young boy or girl. The AMBER Alert would quickly be triggered and the entire community would be mobilized and be on the lookout. When the stranger sees there is no way out, he or she chooses to leave the child unharmed by the side of the road. Would our courts show leniency because the stranger did not have time to harm this child? I think we need to send a message that kidnapping of young children under any circumstances will not be tolerated in Canada.
The victimization of children is a serious problem within our society, and it has devastating effects on the children, their families and also greatly impacts the entire community. The Missing Children's Network, through its prevention and education programs, works hard to reduce child victimization by creating public awareness about the issue of abductions, aggression and exploitation of children, and by providing families, educators and law enforcement with tools and resources to help keep children safer.
As a community, we feel it is our shared responsibility to safeguard children and teach them skills that will help keep them safe. We know that safety education works; it helps build children's confidence and critical thinking skills and prepares them for potentially dangerous situations, should they arise.
The Missing Children's Network also recognizes the need for tougher penalties for those convicted of kidnapping children. By amending clause 279 to include a minimum sentence of five years for anyone who kidnaps a child, we are sending a loud and clear message that crimes and violence against children will not be tolerated in our country and that, as Canadians, we will do everything in our power to keep our children safe from exploitation. We, therefore, salute any measure that could help dissuade just one person from committing such a horrific crime.
Safeguarding childhood has been at the heart of the mission of the Missing Children's Network since 1985. We truly believe that our children deserve to live in a world where they can be just kids: innocent, safe and loved.
The Chair: Thank you.
Mr. Bergeron, please proceed with your opening comments.
[Translation]
Christian Bergeron, as an individual: Mr. Chair, please be patient with me. I am doing this for the first time.
My name is Christian Bergeron, I am 43 years old and I live in Quebec City. I am here today to share my opinion with you and tell you about my experience as a kidnapping victim.
My story began on June 1, 1974, when I was four years old. I was kidnapped outside my family home and taken to a house in the forest three kilometres away.
The aggressor assaulted me sexually, beat me with a stick and left me in a hole to die. I was found a few hours later by passers-by. In 2009, I went to therapy, which worked really well. That allowed me to pull through and to share my story.
I strongly support Bill C-299. A minimum of five years is a minimum. For victims, it is good to know that if they report their aggressors who are then charged, the minimum will be five years. After talking with a number of people I know, they told me that they are in favour of this legislation reform. In my view, public opinion is very supportive.
I hope that Canada will toughen its laws. The impact of trauma on children must never be underestimated. Children who survive such ordeals will suffer irreversible consequences all their lives. That is why we need to be proactive and show that justice will be unforgiving and very strict in those types of cases. A good start would be for us in Canada to become an example and a reference for how to handle these cases. Some may think that there are very few cases of child abductions, but even one case is too many. A good start would be imposing much stricter and firmer sentences. Too many loopholes allow aggressors to get out quickly while the victims suffer for the rest of their lives.
Not only do I have to live with my burden, but as a father of three children, I had to tell them my story when they were old enough to understand. It was very hard for me to tell them about it.
Today, the images are as clear in my mind as they were 39 years ago. I was lucky that I was found and I survived. Not everyone is as lucky. A minimum of five years is very little in exchange for a shattered life. The assailant might have an opportunity to receive proper therapy. Who knows?
Senator Boisvenu: Thank you to the three of you, and thank you to Mr. Bergeron. It takes a lot of courage to talk about life experiences that you would often want to forget. I see that your therapy has worked well.
Mr. Bergeron: Not bad.
Senator Boisvenu: We can only hope that it works as well for criminals. In your case, the criminal was not found. If another child disappeared in the same neighbourhood as you, it is possible that the perpetrator is the same.
Just now I asked the chief of police a question. What I am seeing in missing persons cases in Quebec and Canada, after working with families for 10 years, is the complexity of policing structures. We saw that in Cédrika Provencher's case — and Pina was very involved in that case. It took the local police a few days before it transferred the case to the Sûreté du Québec. It is one of the unsolved cases in Quebec.
I asked the chief of police the question earlier about whether we are well organized in Canada and Quebec in terms of tools and structure. Could improvements be made? His answer was that police officers communicate with each other and exchange a lot of information. The system seems to work well.
However, by looking at the statistics, we see that the number of missing children cases solved varies between 10 per cent and 30 per cent, depending on the province. This means that, in 70 per cent to 90 per cent of criminal abduction cases, the children are not found. So I see a contradiction between the chief of police saying that things are going well and the rate of solved cases, which is so low.
Let me ask the three of you this question. What should we improve? How should police officers improve their work so that they can find those children and especially the perpetrators? It is important to find the criminals who kidnapped the children and who may reoffend.
Ms. Arcamone: Do you mind if I answer this question, Senator Boisvenu?
Senator Boisvenu: Go ahead.
Ms. Arcamone: That is a very good question. Last week, we had a case in Laval where a 10-year old was reported missing since 7 p.m. the night before and we were only notified a number of hours later at 6 a.m. One of the first things is communication between police forces and, in Quebec, the Sûreté du Québec, which is really able to mobilize things to find a child. It is important to focus on acting quickly when someone is missing. It is also important to be more familiar with the profile of the missing persons. Even today, the first assumption is all too often that the child has run away. Because of that, the investigation is not conducted in the same way it would be if the child was thought to have been abducted by a criminal.
I think we need to communicate better and be more familiar with the resources in the province as well.
[English]
It should not be a territorial thing. This is what we are seeing time and time again.
[Translation]
Mr. Surprenant: I agree with what Ms. Arcamone said earlier. Once it is established that it is a kidnapping, even if we do not know the exact nature, the maximum number of people must be deployed. Then, depending on the elements of the investigation, we go to level 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5. First, you must start the engine because the first seconds are always the ones that count.
Senator Boisvenu: Mr. Bergeron, you were a victim.
Mr. Bergeron: Yes.
Senator Boisvenu: You were found by chance.
Mr. Bergeron: Yes.
Senator Boisvenu: Children are often found by chance before they are murdered. In your view, how can we prevent this type of crime?
Mr. Bergeron: The chief of police spoke earlier about schools and cameras. At the time, those tools did not exist. I was kidnapped from a fenced schoolyard. Now cameras are practically everywhere. That was the case in the Boston bombings. Everything is recorded everywhere.
Schoolyards are a nice tulip garden for perpetrators. In my case, 25 years later, I wanted to know who my assailant was. I went back to the police and they had destroyed the files after 15 years because the case had not been cracked—which is a whole different story in itself. I think that is completely absurd.
It is true that DNA tests were not done in 1974. However, 15 years later, since the crime was not solved, the file was thrown out. That makes no sense at all.
In cases of sexual assault, most of the time people report the assault five, 10 or 20 years later. We feel ashamed, it is a taboo subject, and, for a guy, it is not very flattering either.
Senator Rivest: I would first like to apologize on behalf of the senators from the Liberal caucus, Senator Joyal and Senator Baker, who had to leave unfortunately. So it is just me.
[English]
I am alone to face the Conservative forces, but I have absolutely no fear. I have absolutely no fear because I know that the truth is there and on this side of the table.
[Translation]
Mr. Surprenant, Senator Boisvenu talked about the prevention tools police officers can use around schools. We are talking about five-year minimum sentences. Mr. Surprenant, you seemed skeptical about this proposal. The bottom line is that the crime and the horror of kidnapping a child is worth a sentence, not of five years, but rather 10, 15, even 100 years. However, legislators must come up with a number.
Everyone agrees that there is no comparison with the heinous crime. However, from an administrative perspective, some of the people who were sentenced and did, say, five years in prison, for example, were released on parole. How does this parole compare to the recidivism rate?
Second, I am familiar with Mr. Surprenant's and Senator Boisvenu's advocacy for victims and their families. They are far more competent than I am in the area. Once a five-year sentence or a longer sentence is handed down, depending on the gravity of the offence, how do we bring victims into the parole process? Mr. Surprenant, you said that you are very skeptical about the possibility of rehabilitating child sex offenders.
Mr. Surprenant: One of the things I would like to tell you in terms of rehabilitation is that I have heard people say that there were places in the Gaspé where sexual predators were given therapy. I was curious to know what this wonderful therapy might be. I was astounded to find out that the only thing they felt they had to do was to get the criminal to admit that what he did was wrong. Now, that suggests something. It more or less means that nothing can be done. When a sexual predator is known to be a manipulative person, it also means that he will tell an interviewer what he wants to hear in order to get his discharge certificate, or whatever it is called. That is an indication that rehabilitation does not work. It is an indication of an attempt to attribute some significance to people who are paid to try to treat them or to try to make them say this, that or the other. But the reality is that there is no cure.
What I said just now is that, in Canada, we talk about rehabilitation. But the first step, before we even get to that point, is to make the criminal accountable for the act he has committed.
It must not be a lawyer telling his client what to say; when it comes down to it, we realize that they are just crocodile tears. Basically, he will have said what he had to say in order to get parole. In terms of rehabilitation, it did not work. It was like water off a duck's back. Nothing happened.
As I see it, the first step towards rehabilitation is self-reflection. This comes as a result of the duration of the incarceration when the individual understands that his only way out of there is by reflecting on the act he has committed and coming to an understanding that what he did was bad, and that, if he wants to be rehabilitated, he has to go through therapy, and go through it successfully.
The point is that statistics on sexual predators all over the world show that there is no cure. If a sexual predator is released, it is six months at the most before he offends again. That means there is no cure.
Unfortunately, you have to take a repressive approach to a sexual predator to prevent him from being put back in a situation where his release does not cause harm. The longer he is inside, the better.
As I said before, look at the Michel Dunn case, the man who killed his business partner. It took him seven years in prison before he admitted responsibility for his actions. Crocodile tears, again. He knew that, without admitting his crime, he had no right to parole. You can see the manipulative side of people like that; their main goal is their own personal interest, being released.
Once release has been granted, because that is what our current system requires, a sexual predator needs to be monitored. Monitoring is not a question of showing up once every couple of weeks. Because as soon as he gives good answers to two or three questions, he is told, okay, you can go, everything is fine.
You have to understand one thing about sexual predators: when they are committing their crimes, when everything is fresh, you can always interrogate them. But the first thing that they do is to shut everything up inside them and not let it out any more.
Let me give you an example. If he commits an act of a sexual nature and will not be appearing at the parole board until two weeks afterwards, he has the time to internalize the crime, put on his poker face, if you will, and pretend everything is hunky-dory. So there must be monitoring, and the first consideration of that monitoring must be that what a sexual predator really wants is to sink back into anonymity so that he can offend again.
The image I have is of a wild animal, lying in the bushes, waiting for the right moment to pounce. If he is the one being hunted, he will not move. That may seem a little simplistic, but it gives an idea of what you have to do to stop a criminal from reoffending, starting right when we have to accept that the law will release him after a certain time.
Senator Rivest: I hear you talking about science, psychiatrists and all that; you hear them all over the place talking about the possibility of rehabilitation. I have heard you speak about it before, but I would like to hear you again.
Mr. Surprenant: As I see it at the moment, experts are likely to be much more sympathetic to whomever is paying them. Experts do not provide legal opinions, they provide their own. They are not accountable for what they say. So he who pays the piper calls the tune.
Senator McIntyre: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you for your presentations, madam, gentlemen. The kidnapping of a young person is and will forever be very painful for loved ones. Waiting for them to come back is always hard. Too often they do not come back, though sometimes they do.
I notice that such was the case a few days ago when we learned about the discovery of three young American women aged 14, 16 and 21, who had been held captive in a house in Cleveland, Ohio. They had been kidnapped more than ten years ago. They are now back with their families after a brief stay in hospital. They are now dealing with a decade of nightmares.
I understand that Ms. Arcamone and Mr. Surprenant represent associations that are involved in similar cases. How do you see the discovery of those young women in the States? Does that discovery strengthen your search efforts to the point of giving you a ray of hope?
Ms. Arcamone: For The Missing Children's Network, yes. It is still quite a complicated issue, because we are happy about the fact that the three girls have been found after ten years. That validates the mission we set for ourselves in 1985. We are built on hope. We represent hope for families, but not false hope. Our families stay quite realistic. What we want to give them is an answer to the question of whether their children are still alive or not. But I have to tell you that it raised a lot of questions for us.
I have been at The Missing Children's Network for 19 years and my first reaction, when I heard about those three young women, was shock. It is almost unanticipated, unheard of. But we know that we have no crystal ball, so we do not have the answer.
However, it causes us to question the work that was done when those girls were reported missing, and what happened then. The families were all led to believe that their children were no longer alive. No more searching had been done in all those years. In all three cases, the families marked the anniversaries of their three daughters' disappearances on their own initiative. The families were the ones looking for answers.
One of the first things is that the families cannot be left alone with their grief. Those families need support. Those families need assistance because they are too tired, and too overwhelmed by the number of years that have gone by with no news. Someone has to take that initiative, and that is what our organizations do.
We continue to provide support, but we also continue to put a little pressure on the police forces. Photographs can be aged, for example, and missing persons' descriptions can still be distributed. We continue to ask for the public's help. The important thing is that those children can never, ever, be forgotten. Yes, it gives us hope, and it makes us examine what we are doing in our own organizations as well. We do not have the answer, but we cannot just say that a child is dead because someone has seen a young boy being abducted and because there is no news. We continue searching so that the families can have an answer some day.
Senator McIntyre: Mr. Surprenant, do you want to comment?
Mr. Surprenant: Yes. In my case, you know that my daughter disappeared in 1999. The first thing a case like the one in Cleveland brings — together with renewed energy — is hope. Hope keeps us alive. This renews our hope and lets us continue to hope for a positive outcome. But it also highlights how important it is for the public to remain vigilant and for us to pay attention to our surroundings.
The simple information that our association has been sending since 2004, warning of the dangers of sexual predators and what they are, and so on, has led to public vigilance. When we get news like that, it is like baggage that we, the parents of the victims, and the victims, drag around with us day after day. It is part of our daily lives and we learn to use it like baggage containing experience and not like millstones around our necks.
That means that we keep a rational attitude to things. The fact that three children have been found in Cleveland does not mean that we are going to run around all over Quebec. It means that we keep our rational attitude and it brings back some hope.
Senator Dagenais: I would like to thank our three witnesses. Ms. Arcamone, do you have any comparisons about the treatment of child kidnappers elsewhere in the world, I mean, about how they are treated?
Ms. Arcamone: I think that sentences are quite a lot harsher. To use Belgium as an example, after the case of Marc Dutroux, who kidnapped two girls, an entire movement was created. A missing persons' unit was even established by the government. The unit has a team of 49 people operating it and they automatically become involved in all kinds of disappearances today, whether for children or adults; their success rate is really impressive. There is zero tolerance; when a kidnapper is sentenced, he goes to prison for the rest of his life.
I agree with Michel; the longer these predators stay behind bars, the better it is for our society, because the prisoners never need to use force to kidnap a child. They very rarely use a knife or point a gun at a child. They know how to talk to them, to sweet talk them, to manipulate them with things like: "I have lost my dog; can you help me find it?" or "I have hurt my arm; can you help me carry my bags of groceries inside?" That is what Ted Bundy did in the United States, and he killed a lot of women. So sentences are harsher.
As a representative of The Missing Children's Network, I can tell you that, up to now, we have been involved in 1,260 cases of disappearance in the last 28 years, of which 28 were criminal kidnappings. I can tell you that 17 of those cases have been solved, so we still have a number of active files and we are wondering whether they can be closed one day.
Senator Dagenais: Do we need to make a distinction between kidnappers who are strangers and those who are a member of the victim's family?
Ms. Arcamone: That is a very good question, Senator Dagenais. When we are dealing with a parental abduction, we must always consider the best interests of the child. We have been involved in hundreds and hundreds of cases where the children have been found and brought home after a number of years. Some of those children have been brainwashed and have been told, for example, that their mother did not want them anymore, that their mother tried to kill them, that their mother was dead, and so on. The child comes back and no longer knows whom to trust, because the father has been telling him one thing, that mommy has been bad for years, and now, they are sending him back to mommy.
We also have to ask whether the fact that one of the parents is in prison is in the best interests of the child. That is not a question that can be answered in a few minutes; you really have to take some time and look at the question carefully. If the parents are estranged, I feel that it is critical for the child that visits to the abducting parent be discontinued and that the abducting parent take the time to accept responsibility for and recognize what he has done.
Unfortunately, in a lot of cases, parents do not recognize that they have committed an offence, and they even threaten to take the child back. So contact must be discontinued, but the child lives with the two parents. As Mr. Bergeron said, we live with the consequences, and the children are also going to live with the consequences for the rest of their days. In cases of parental abduction, I feel that it is important, above all, to favour prevention and to try to provide the parents with some awareness before it even happens. When sentences are imposed, for two or four years, the best interests of the child really have to be considered. That is because the children will continue to grow up and to live their lives. They will have to trust other adults in life and then they will have to make choices.
Senator Dagenais: Thank you very much.
[English]
Senator Batters: Thank you very much for all three of your presentations. They were excellent presentations today, and I thank you all for coming here.
Ms. Arcamone, I appreciate that you mentioned in your presentation whether we should treat this with any leniency because that particular offender did not have time to harm the child. As well, if the particular amendment that we are looking at today were to be passed, it would send a loud and clear message that violence against children will not be tolerated and that we will do everything possible to keep our children safe from exploitation.
I am not sure whether you were here earlier when the previous witness testified, but I spoke briefly about a recent case from my home province of Saskatchewan, in a small city called Yorkton, where a first-time offender had kidnapped a child. It was a stranger abduction. She luckily escaped in a relatively brief period of time before anything further could happen to her. Still, he received a sentence of two years less a day. That, in my view, illustrates what we are dealing with here and the need for that. I think you would probably agree with that.
Ms. Arcamone: Absolutely. It is my opinion that any crime committed against children needs to be punished.
I agree with Mr. Bergeron's comment at the beginning. I think Canada is a beautiful country. My parents immigrated here many years ago and we have made it our home ever since. I think we can become leaders in the world by taking a stance. We often say that children are our future. Absolutely they are our future, but we need to make them our present. We need to take care of them now in order for them to be our future and lead the way. I totally agree with your comment.
Senator Batters: Mr. Bergeron, I salute your courage today. I am sure it took a lot to come here. I appreciate you coming here and sharing your story. I hope you find that appearing here today and telling your story to us and to the Canadian people will help you in your continued healing as you go forward in your journey. Thank you.
Mr. Bergeron: Thank you.
Senator White: Thank you very much for being here.
[Translation]
Thank you for your participation, especially to Mr. Bergeron.
[English]
I know it was very difficult but, at the same time, it is very important for all of us.
When we talk about these offenders, we are talking about people who are extremely resistant to therapy. I can probably fill this table with enough evidence from researchers saying they are resistant to therapy. Also, there are often multiple victims. We can go back and look at school teachers like Ed Horne as an example, who sexually abused hundreds of children over a decade in 11 communities. There are many of those examples around the world and in our country.
I am a believer that not all offenders do better in jail. I am also a believer that sometimes Canadians do better when some offenders are in jail for as long as possible. That is what I am trying to confirm. In your evidence, that is also what you believe. You believe some people must be kept in jail to keep us safe, even if it is only one more day, one more week, one more year, in order to protect a child. Is that correct?
Ms. Arcamone: Absolutely.
The Chair: I am curious about the Quebec situation. Does Quebec have its own sex offender registry?
[Translation]
Mr. Surprenant: In Quebec, there is a registry for sexual predators.
[English]
The Chair: It is a Canadian registry, not a stand-alone registry?
[Translation]
Mr. Surprenant: But the registry has one problem. It is administered by two Sûreté du Québec police officers. If an incident of a sexual nature occurs and any police force in Quebec wants access to the registry, they absolutely have to go through those "gate keepers". Let me tell you the situation in the United States. In the United States, there is a website called Sex Offender. You enter your postal code, and you instantly get the names, addresses and criminal records of predators in your immediate neighborhood. Here, by comparison, we have a guard at the gate. I would like the registry to be accessible at least to all police forces without interference. In that way, it would be more effective for the police in dealing with people like that. At the moment, if a police officer does not see the importance of going to the registry, he could miss some information. Perhaps he will not go and look at it because it is complicated. I am told that the police officers have access to the guarded gate 24 hours a day. But I doubt whether, on a fine Sunday afternoon by the side of his pool, a police officer is going to a Sûreté du Québec office to search through the registry. He will probably put it off until the next day. That is why I am saying that it is important for it to be accessible at all times and for all police forces.
[English]
The Chair: If they believe the risk is significant, do the police forces in Quebec have the right to notify communities of the presence of a convicted predator who has been released in their neighbourhoods?
[Translation]
Mr. Surprenant: For the moment, this is being done in Ontario and I believe it is also done in Alberta. In Quebec, people are very cautious in that regard. From the moment there is a public indictment, signs could be put up on posts and it would be legal, but people are still reluctant to do so.
[English]
The Chair: Is that something your organization is working on in terms of giving the police the ability to notify if they consider it a significant risk?
[Translation]
Mr. Surprenant: This is part of the work that must be done to make citizens aware of their rights; they must know what legal steps they can take to protect themselves against sexual predators in their communities, through prevention, posting signs, et cetera, by using only those elements that are in the public domain. It is work that needs to be done.
When the association was created, one of our priorities was to inform the population of the serious danger the presence of a sexual predator represents in society.
[English]
The Chair: Senator McIntyre raised the issue of the Ohio women, and Mr. Bergeron, you were a victim. I am wondering if any assistance was provided to you to try to overcome the challenges versus what is available today. I am curious if you could speak to that. We have talked about assistance and treatment for offenders, but I think especially the victims have to be looked at more closely in terms of the resources available to them.
[Translation]
Mr. Bergeron: In 1974, when I was abducted, the resources were not as plentiful, at least I think they were not, because I had four or five meetings with a psychologist, and that was all.
As for therapy, the victim should be able to benefit from it just like the predator does. I had to go through three courses of therapy. I had one in 1998. I stopped everything because the psychologist was crying instead of me. In 2005, I went back because there was a triggering event, as there always is. This time, the "therapist" had false credentials. Once again, I stopped everything.
Then in 2009, I met with an exceptional therapist. I think I am okay now. However, I have trouble believing that predators will be cured through therapy. I do not believe that. I am not a specialist. I am not a therapist, but God knows that is practically impossible. When you are with a therapist, you can say what he or she wants to hear, and let them believe everything is fine. That is how they obtain their release. They are manipulators. They can convince anybody of anything.
To reply to your question on the resources available, the therapist, the specialist I saw — and I had trouble finding one — was introduced to me by Marc Bellemare, the Quebec lawyer. If I had not known Mr. Bellemare, I would never have met that person.
[English]
The Chair: Are there any additional questions from senators?
Seeing none, thank you all for being here. It has been most helpful.
Yes, sir, you have an additional comment?
[Translation]
Mr. Surprenant: I would like to add something to what Mr. Bergeron said. Two weeks ago, there was a symposium in Quebec. One of the objectives is to get to a point where the victims have at least the same services as the criminals who are in jail; the aim is that they benefit from equal services, at least. When you are the victim, the predator in jail is entitled to all of the services; when you are a victim, like this gentleman, you have to pay for any service you need. Equal services for both would be a minimum goal. We have to get to a point where the rights of the criminal do not come before the rights of the victim. The law should provide equal services to both.
[English]
The Chair: Thank you all again. I especially applaud you, Mr. Bergeron, for your appearance here today.
Thank you to the committee. We will meet next on Wednesday, May 22, to continue with Bill C-299. Happy Victoria Day.
(The committee adjourned.)