Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Official Languages
Issue 10 - Evidence - Meeting of May 14, 2012
OTTAWA, Monday, May 14, 2012
The Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages met this day at 5 p.m. to study the CBC/Radio-Canada's obligations under the Official Languages Act and some aspects of the Broadcasting Act, as well as the use of the Internet, new media and social media and the respect for Canadians' language rights.
Senator Maria Chaput (Chair) in the chair.
[Translation]
The Chair: Honourable senators, I see that we have quorum and I declare the meeting open. Welcome to this meeting of the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages.
I will introduce myself. I am Senator Maria Chaput of Manitoba, chair of the committee. Before introducing the witnesses appearing today, I invite the members of the committee to introduce themselves.
I will start with my extreme left.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: I am Senator Suzanne Fortin-Duplessis of Quebec. I am delighted to see you and I am looking forward to your presentation.
Senator Poirier: I am Senator Rose-May Poirier of New Brunswick. Welcome.
Senator Losier-Cool: Rose-Marie Losier-Cool of New Brunswick.
[English]
The Chair: The committee continues its studies on the use of the Internet and social media and respect for Canadians' language rights, and on CBC/Radio-Canada's obligations under the Official Languages Act and some aspects of the Broadcasting Act. The committee is interested in hearing the point of view of anglophone organizations in the arts and culture sector as part of these two studies and is pleased to welcome Mr. Guy Rodgers, Executive Director, and Mr. Geoff Agombar, Office Manager, of the English-Language Arts Network; and Mr. Kirwan Cox, Researcher of the Quebec English-language Production Council.
On behalf of the members of the committee, I thank you all for appearing today. You now have the floor, and senators will follow with questions.
Guy Rodgers, Executive Director, English-Language Arts Network: Good afternoon. We are happy to be speaking this afternoon. On behalf of ELAN's board and members, we commend you for studying Canada's obligations under the Official Languages Act and some aspects of the Broadcasting Act. We appeared before you on April 23 with the Quebec Community Groups Network and talked about a study that we had produced on CBC Radio and Television, so I will not go over that territory again. Today I want to talk about CBC in the context of Internet. My short presentation will segue into a presentation by Geoff Agombar, the office manager for ELAN.
Quebec's English-speaking minority has created a broadcast and media working group which has identified two priorities. The longer-term priority is to stimulate the creation of new content that reflects our Anglo-Quebec identity and reality. There are numerous possible partners ranging from campus and community media to commercial broadcasters and, of course, our national broadcaster, CBC. This work will require considerable resources and new forms of collaboration.
The shorter-term priority is to identify and aggregate existing content. Theoretically, this is relatively simple. Apart from local news, ELAN has identified numerous sources of content involving artists in the vibrant English-speaking artistic community in Quebec. Much of this content is only accessed by specific segments of the audience which may listen to CBC or commercial radio or campus radio, which all have good arts coverage. The same is true of television and print media. Most people are only familiar with a few of the media sources, and therefore, they are not aware of all content that would be of interest to them, and they are not accessing it.
Our aggregation project would bring this material together on a single Internet portal that could be searched by type of artistic content, for example music or theatre, or by name of artist. A centralized portal would benefit the audience by connecting them with existing interviews, reviews and concert performances. It would also benefit the content producers by increasing the audience for their production. It seems like a win-win solution.
Unfortunately, the Internet is still uncharted territory and there are unresolved questions about rights, royalties and ratings. CBC Radio is currently pioneering new territory with its online CBC music service which was launched a few months ago. A private company has lodged a complaint with the CRTC alleging that the new online service is harmful to the competitive market due to what they claim is a preferential payment structure and the fact that CBC receives government funding which partially finances the service.
I do not wish to take a position on CBC's claim that it does not receive preferential treatment when negotiating rights deals, nor do I wish to take a position on whether a funded government broadcaster has a competitive advantage over a private broadcaster.
I do want to say a few words about the role that CBC plays in relation to private broadcasters. CBC has a mandate to speak to Canadians about Canadian interests, which certainly includes Canadian culture and Canadian music. Singer-songwriter Jill Barber, for example, is rarely, if ever, played on commercial radio because her music is not considered commercially viable. Her music is, however, regularly played on CBC Radio and its new online service because it is considered artistically valuable. This is an important distinction which encapsulates the difference between CBC Radio and commercial radio. One has a vision of artistic value while the other is focused on commercial viability. The primary purpose of CBC Radio is not to compete but to serve, and it is doing a fine job in this domain. The new online service is one of the best places to discover Canadian music and musicians.
ELAN's aggregated website would link to sources such as CBC. The music is currently categorized via genre, such as classical, jazz, singer-songwriter, indie rock, et cetera. We would want to link directly to Quebec content to help promote our local artists. The fact that the CBC service exists means that a different way of accessing existing content would add value for CBC Radio and its listeners.
ELAN has made an application to the linguistic duality branch of the Department of Canadian Heritage in order to make content, which currently exists mostly in English, also available in French. This content, again, could be interviews, reviews or concert performances that exist in a radio, TV or print format.
As was noted last time we were here, Radio-Canada is not particularly interested in what is happening in Quebec amongst its English-speaking minority, just as it is not particularly interested in what is happening outside Quebec amongst the French-speaking minority. CBC generates a good deal of interesting content about the English-speaking community in Quebec and it could be an important partner in a linguistic duality project. By aggregating existing content, translating parts of it and repackaging it for a francophone audience, we can use the power and versatility of the Internet to enter into an interesting conversation with the francophone majority.
Now my colleague Geoff Agombar will make a short presentation about social media. Thank you and we will be happy to answer any of your questions at the end.
Geoff Agombar, Office Manager, English-Language Arts Network: Hello and thank you for having us here today. I have been asked to speak about the use of social media in Quebec's English-speaking arts and cultural milieu. We are not aware of any objective studies in this area, but can certainly speak to our own observation of trends and effects in the community.
In terms of the situation in the community, the core challenges facing Quebec's English-speaking artists are not unlike those facing artists everywhere: How will I fund my work? How do I connect with people who support my work? How do I maintain a relationship with people who support my work?
At the same time, there are a number of particularities that face artists working in minority language situations. In Quebec's regions, the themes that emerge are recognizable to anyone who knows the situation faced by francophone communities outside of Quebec: demographic pressures, geographic atomization, economic isolation and, most closely linked to today's theme, access to services and infrastructure. For anyone out in rural areas, if you are on dial-up, you are not really a full participant in the social web.
In and around Montreal, despite the dense, urban concentration of anglophones, artists nonetheless face challenges that have their corollaries throughout Canada's linguistic minority communities. For example, "How do I achieve visibility within a sparse media environment?'' Currently in Montreal we are down to one English daily, one English weekly, some community broadcasters with narrow listenership and public and private broadcasters that offer limited coverage of the arts, much of which is frequently dedicated to covering celebrity culture produced elsewhere.
Another question is how to build bridges and earn the respect of the majority; in our case, the francophone majority. How do you secure donors and sponsors within a corporate culture that naturally sees association with anglophone culture as offering less bang for the buck while often being inherently risky.
Within the social media context, we have to ask how English speakers have been using social media to tackle these challenges. It is a broad topic and one that is still a very much in its infancy.
I spoke to a number of artists last week in order to ask them how they use social media in their own work. Some of the common themes to emerge from these conversations are accessibility, connection, control and funding. Accessibility in that tools are low-cost and open to all; connection in that the tools are allowed direct, two-way contact with supporters; control in that the message can be shared without filtering through intermediaries; and funding, which is a bit more derivative, in that online we have new tools that exist that allow artists and organizers to benefit from the accessibility, connectivity and culture already listed to solicit new sources of financial support.
No doubt we can explore these themes more deeply during the question period to come, but I would like to pick one example of how the emergence of social media has allowed English-speaking artists and organizations to tackle the strategic challenge very much current in their local context.
The English-language media ecosystem is thin in Quebec, even in the relatively concentrated context of Montreal, where there are ever fewer outlets and ever fewer employees at those outlets, often governed by ownership that is not based in Quebec — for example, the Gazette is owned out of Toronto and Calgary now — or not connected to anglophone communities such as the many community papers owned by Transcontinental or Quebecor.
New communications and marketing platforms such as Facebook and Twitter, and blogging platforms like Pinterest, allow artists and organizations to effectively cut out the middle man and develop channels to distribute their own news directly to their own network of supporters. This has contributed to a blossoming of new talents in recent years as more and more groups are able to sustain enough support to produce regularly.
It should be noted however that the new media have not replaced traditional media, nor should we expect that to be the case any time soon. A positive review in the Gazette or La Presse is still the best way to generate broad interest in an event or artist. However, social media has given the English-speaking community access to powerful, low-cost tools to tackle this long-standing weakness that are inherent due to their minority status.
ELAN holds that the realm of social media have already placed a considerable degree of pressure on traditional media and any policy initiative in this domain must be careful not to undermine the health of community media which are particularly vulnerable to this threat due to the narrow audience and thin margins that they operate under. These outlets offer important alternative and vital service to the community and are deserving of particular attention.
I would also highlight that ELAN sees great potential in pursuing initiatives that promote linguistic duality via social media channels. By their nature, traditional media target an English or French audience. The boundaries between linguistic audiences are less defined online where audiences tend to be linked due to common niche interest, rather than the language of delivery. ELAN has developed a proposal in this vein that would work to present the positive contribution to Quebec society by English language artists and work to help English coverage cross over to the francophone majority, and vice versa.
To summarize, the root challenges facing English-speaking artists in Quebec are not unlike those facing artists everywhere. Like francophones hors Quebec, they face additional challenges with respect to infrastructure, visibility and access to audiences that add a further layer of complexity to the situation. Social media have begun to provide powerful new tools to respond to these challenges in productive ways, but these tools have yet to mature to the point where they can consistently match the power of traditional media.
That said, a minority community is, by its nature, a niche audience and the Internet is built around consolidating and catering to niche audiences. As such, Quebec's English-speaking arts community has been quick to adopt and implement these new technologies and sees them as a key component of future development.
Thank you.
Kirwan Cox, Researcher, Quebec English-language Production Council: Thank you for inviting the Quebec English- language Production Council to speak to you via video conference from Montreal. My name is Kirwan Cox and I am the Coordinator of the QEPC. Regrettably our co-chairs Janis Lundman and Gary Saxe have scheduling conflicts and cannot be here today. Ms. Lundman is executive producer of dramatic TV series you may have seen, such as Bomb Girls and Durham County. Mr. Saxe is a national organizer for ACTRA, the Alliance of Canadian Cinema, Television and Radio Artists.
The Quebec English-language Production Council represents the provincial English-language production industry. Unfortunately, English-language production in Quebec has been declining over the last 10 years or so from about $300 million in total budgets to roughly half that now. We face many unique challenges working in English in Quebec. For example, English-language production faces a more challenging financing environment with the 10 per cent lower provincial tax credit than French language production. There is also a SODEC cap on investment funding of English production.
On top of that, we have completely inadequate regional reflection on television. There is no regional English- language television broadcasters, no local broadcaster that reflects our communities back to themselves, no educational channel like TFO in Ontario, and not even a community television channel.
While we continue to produce and coproduce popular TV programming seen around the world, we do not see ourselves on our TV screens. There is no regional reflection in English in Quebec outside the local news weather and sports. According to the Montreal Gazette, the last major network TV series set in Montreal was Urban Angel broadcast 20 years ago.
Therefore, our community is hurt both on cultural and economic level as our local industry shrinks. We believe the solutions to many problems can be found in Part VII of the Official Languages Act. Yet it is difficult for some to understand that our community can be invisible even if our language is heard on television.
Let us start with the CRTC. At the CRTC's Official Languages Discussion Group, we have frequently raised the Quebec all-mix production problems and our belief that the CRTC should apply the Official Languages Act to their decisions. They have responded that the Broadcasting Act takes precedence over the OLA and they have no obligations to the official language minorities in their decisions, except as those obligations may be spelled out in the Broadcasting Act.
Furthermore, the CRTC said in its 2009 report on linguistic minority broadcasting that it will not create general, all- mix policies that deal with all-mix issues on a case-by-case basis through licence renewal regulation. Unfortunately, that has not worked. In the most important English network licence renewal since that report was issued, the CRTC completely ignored the official language minority in Quebec in its licence renewal decisions for the major private broadcast groups.
The CRTC has a long-standing policy that broadcast networks should spend money on regional production based on their market presence in that region. We intervened at the broadcast group licence hearing, saying that the largest private English broadcasters should spend more on production based on their market presence in Montreal. In the last three years, the CBC has spent about 12 per cent of its national independent production budget on English Quebec programming. This is about half of its 25 per cent share of the English Quebec audience. Global has spent about 6 per cent of its independent production budget in Quebec, or about half of its 12 per cent share the English Quebec audience. On the other hand, CTV has a dominant 64 per cent share of English language viewing in Quebec, yet it spends about 2 per cent of its independent production budget in Quebec. That is only 3 per cent of its market share compared to roughly 50 per cent of the market share spent by Global and CBC. The CRTC completely ignored the question of official language minority production in these broadcast group licence renewals, including CTV's. They said nothing.
Another example of the problem we have with the impact of the CRTC's decisions on us is the Local Programming Improvement Fund. LPIF was set up three years ago and is an incredibly important source of local program funding. The CRTC defined eligible LPIF markets as having fewer than 1 million people. Winnipeg and English Montreal are the same size, less than 1 million people, and both should be eligible for LPIF funding. Winnipeg is eligible, but Montreal, with 800,000 English speakers, is ineligible for LPIF. The reason is that the CRTC defined an anglophone as someone with knowledge of English. There are over 2 million such knowledgeable people in Montreal. With that definition, the CRTC excluded the entire English-speaking population of Quebec from LPIF funding.
When we look more deeply at LPIF spending, we find the English private networks did not apparently spend their LPIF money on local programming but used it to cross-subsidize their operations and foreign program costs. This was not against the flexible rules the CRTC put in place for the LPIF. On the other hand, the CBC spent its money on local programming in eligible markets. This was the purpose of the LPIF. Unfortunately for us, as I just said, the Montreal OLMC is not an eligible market.
The CRTC is conducting an LPIF review as we speak. We hope they keep LPIF and decide that Montreal, with fewer than 1 million anglophones, should be eligible.
Let us finish on the CBC. The public broadcaster is important to the whole country, but it is even more important to both official language minorities. We support the CBC fervently.
As you know, the CBC has a special mandate to reflect the needs and circumstances of both OLMCs in the Broadcasting Act. Unfortunately for us, the only one obligation to OLMCs in the act is limited to the CBC. We would dearly love to see a similar obligation placed on the private broadcasters in exchange for their use of the public airwaves. As we have said, the CBC spends a larger percentage of its independent production budget in Quebec than the private broadcasters do, yet we do not see ourselves reflected on CBC's screens either.
In addition, regional programming by all broadcasters is largely limited to news, weather and sports. We would like to see a greater diversity of programming on all Montreal channels, including regional reflection in drama, children's and documentary production. Of course, we want more OLMC production in Quebec. The lack of regional reflection on CBC is a very serious issue for us.
As you can see from our experience with the private network licence renewals, we are not sure the CRTC will hear us when we intervene at the CBC licence renewal coming up later this year.
Finally, we worry that the CBC's lack of funding will endanger and cripple its ability to fulfil its various mandates, especially its mandates to the OLMCs. Unfortunately, without further legislative and regulatory invention, the evidence does not indicate that the commercial networks will step into the breach. Therefore, we call on the government to increase CBC funding.
We will be happy to answer any questions you may have. Thank you.
The Chair: Thank you very much.
[Translation]
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: I would like to know if the Internet influences the culture of anglophone artists in Quebec, and if the Internet has created a new generation of anglophone creators in Quebec?
[English]
Mr. Rodgers: Mr. Agombar is our expert on the Internet. He is more of the Internet generation, so we will let him answer this question.
Mr. Agombar: Influence in whether it has created a new generation? Under influence, I would certainly say that, as we all know, the Internet is a very anglophone place, so obviously there is exposure to English content. There is not a lack of English content. It is the same as the themes that came up in Mr. Cox's presentation. Here in this community, we do not lack for content in our language; we lack for content that reflects us. There is a very great deal of content coming in externally.
I would certainly say that, yes, there is a great deal of exposure to content, and if there is exposure, then obviously there is influence. With the Internet, being an international forum where geographical boundaries are not as present, I think that that is definitely the case. We are influenced by what is going on around the world in English. In terms of whether it has created a new generation? I do not know.
Mr. Rodgers: There tends to be the idea that the Internet is really a young person's world. We have found that people in the arts are using Internet, and many people in their fifties and sixties are using Internet and Facebook to invite and to connect, so there might be a slight skew in the arts world about the age of users.
Mr. Agombar: Something has happened in the last four or five years. For example, I had experience working with a local theatre festival for many years before coming to ELAN, and I know that in the last five or seven years there has been a great explosion in the number of small companies that are producing for an audience that they have been able to hold together largely around their ability to maintain contact with them via the tools that Internet has made available to them, to the point where we actually have a great deal of production now and there is almost more production than there is audience to sustain it. There has been evidence that the existence of the tools that the Internet has provided is influencing a new generation of creators to be able to cobble together enough support to work on a regular basis. We will have to see where that takes us in terms of the generation of creators that are currently operating here.
Mr. Cox: I would like to add remuneration, because the Internet provides a distribution system that is very democratic and is evolving in ways that are overwhelming, but at the same time I hear from many young people that they have a very hard time making a living. Many of the places where one could go up a ladder in a production company or in some such way and be able to work at a job that paid you money are becoming more and more difficult. You have to volunteer your labours in order to get going. There is a downside as well as an upside.
[Translation]
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: Have you noticed whether or not the Internet has changed the relationships and cultural exchanges between anglophone Quebecers who are somewhat older?
[English]
Mr. Rodgers: As you know, many older Quebecers have children who are living far away from Quebec. It is a very major problem. Yes, indeed, many people are connecting with their children and grandchildren via Facebook, via Skype and various Internet methods. It has certainly been helpful in that regard.
Mr. Agombar: I had a conversation with someone who makes theatre in the Eastern Townships. She was saying that the arrival of Internet tools has completely revolutionized how they spread their message as well in a rural context. We often think of Internet as being perhaps a more urban phenomenon. She was saying that now it is to the point where she connects with certain segments via purchasing ads in the newspaper, but if she only buys an ad in the local newspaper, she does not get enough audience to support her activities any more. Even in small-town contexts, she needs to use Internet to connect to her audience. She says that is an older audience, so yes, in that context, in that specific situation, there is an example of someone who needs to use Internet tools in order to connect with an audience of all ages, so yes.
[Translation]
Senator Losier-Cool: Thank you for your presentation. You have seen that on today's agenda, we are discussing a study on the use of the Internet, new media, social media, always from the perspective of respecting Canadians' language rights.
Is it possible for all anglophone Quebecers, wherever they live, to have access to the Internet and to new social media? If not, could you tell us where the Internet or digital phone service is not available?
[English]
Mr. Rodgers: We could get you accurate information and send it to you in a day or two. There are very specific regions of Quebec, notably the farther you get away from Quebec City or Montreal, where Internet reception is limited, certainly high speed. People might be able to check emails but cannot speak on Skype. This research has been done, and we can send you that report within a day or two, absolutely.
Senator Losier-Cool: You would recommend to this committee that we make sure that Internet is accessible for the anglophones everywhere in Quebec, no matter where they live?
Mr. Rodgers: Absolutely. It is invaluable, it is essential, and it currently is not available equally everywhere.
Senator Losier-Cool: The main question, and I believe Mr. Cox spoke a lot about the financing, could you tell us what kind of federal financing you receive, either from the Conseil des Arts du Canada or Telefilm, or do you receive any federal financing for arts and culture for the anglophone minority in Quebec?
Mr. Cox: Yes, there is a significant amount of federal funding, but there are, of course, two types of federal funding. One is for a commercial production, and the other is for artistic production, so the Canada council will fund individual artists whereas Telefilm will work with commercial producers who are producing a commercial product. From our point of view, the Quebec government priority is obviously with supporting French-language production, and therefore, the rules are not the same for the provincial government supporting English production as they are for French production. We are not complaining about that, but it means that the federal funding institutions are quite critical for the official language minority inside Quebec, and to the degree that those institutions do not understand that role, we suffer.
I gave you some examples. The CBC has an official language minority organization, but it is entirely located in Radio-Canada because they only see official language minority issues as being French outside of Quebec. They do not have anyone in CBC, meaning the English side of the operation, dealing with Montreal in terms of being an official language minority. That is an example where there is a problem with CBC, as far as we are concerned.
I raise the CRTC issue because, on the one hand, they have told all official language minorities that they will do regulation on a case-by-case basis at licence renewal times, and licence renewals can be 7 or 10 years away. It is an extremely laborious process to use licence renewal to change policies for the entire English language minority.
We discovered this past year that even when they have a glaring situation in front of them, which was the broadcast group licence renewals, especially the one with CTV, they did not say we were wrong. They did not say they disagreed with us. They did not respond at all to the entire issue of official language minority broadcasting inside of Quebec. They ignored it entirely. On the one hand, they issued their report in 2009 saying this was all very important and they would deal with it case by case, but when the first major case came up, they were absent. Our question is: If we feel the CRTC has failed in its policies, who does one complain to? They are a quasi-judicial organization, and it is impossible to find a way to complain.
Senator Losier-Cool: You are telling me that the anglophone minority in Quebec does not feel that they are well represented at CBC. Are you aware if there ever was a study, more or less, to see how many minutes CBC will give to the anglophone minority? Do you have any study, any number that has been done? The francophones outside Quebec did that kind of study. Do you know if there has been a study done by your English network?
Mr. Cox: There are a couple of answers to that. One is that a lot of statistical data for English Quebec is confidential, and therefore, we cannot access it. The reason is because sometimes the level of production in Quebec in English is so low that any revelation of that information CMF or Telefilm or other people feel would jeopardize confidentiality. We cannot get from the CRTC certain statistics about English-language television broadcasting in Quebec because they feel it would jeopardize the commercial confidentiality. Therefore, our numbers are combined with French production and French broadcasting in Quebec. We cannot get a linguistic breakdown. That is one example of the kind of problem we have.
Last year we told the CRTC that the CBC did not deposit independent production reports with the CRTC as the CRTC has insisted for a number of years the private broadcasters deposit. The CRTC said, "Oh, my God, we did not realize that we had not been asking for this essential information. Therefore, we will completely postpone the entire CBC licence renewal for at least a year, and it is your fault, Quebec English-language Production Council.'' We are responsible for the delay of the CBC because we asked for the data you are asking us if we get. We got it and we just gave it to you, 12 per cent.
Senator Poirier: There was a comment made in the presentations that you felt that the media via the newspaper was still the best over social media to get your information out. I was curious to know, do you feel that statement is true just in the anglophone section of Quebec or do you feel that is francophone also?
Mr. Agombar: I was the one who made that statement, and that is based on experience. I spent a fair amount of time filling publicist roles. You get a sense of when a story appears in a particular channel you are able to watch what effect that has on audience numbers. Basically, the ladder is you try to get print reporting, and then you try to get radio reporting, and if you are lucky, you might get some television coverage. That is largely reflective of how much space there is for arts and culture reporting in each of those media.
The thing about traditional media, like print, the point is that those outlets still reach a much broader and diverse audience than Internet channels do. Internet channels tend to reach audiences that are linked by specific interest.
As one filmmaker said when I asked her about this, "The old model was you tried to get a distributor that would reach a broad audience.'' Today, all the documentary filmmakers are self-producing and self-distributing to a niche audience. There is a change in the type of audience you can reach through those broader media channels.
That is not an issue specific to the anglophone context. Rather, that has to do with the nature of the different media, what types and sizes of audiences they connect to. That is derivative of the fact that a newspaper reaches a broader and more diverse audience in terms of generation and income, et cetera.
Senator Poirier: In the importance of getting the information out, you feel that people are getting it. You focus on newspaper, radio and television. Does that tell me that social media comes fourth after all the other avenues for you?
Mr. Agombar: No. Strategy is about matching what tools and resources you have at hand to the effect you want to achieve. It is never a matter of choosing one over the other. It is a matter of achieving as much in each of those channels as you can and what kind of results you can expect. Traditional media for reaching a new audience and developing an audience over time, in terms of getting hold of someone who has never heard of you who is interested in your product, is still better.
New media have yet to mature to the point where a good blog post tends to reach, on average, as many people as diverse an audience as a review in the Gazette.
Senator Poirier: Would you assume or would you say at the end of day that one of the problems that still exists is the inability for much of the population to have quick access to the services via social media, or would it be more that you feel that a certain portion of the population still do not have the knowledge and the tools to use social media to get what they are looking for?
Mr. Agombar: In the rural context, the accessibility to broadband can be an issue. Internet has considerable penetration in the urban context so it is not as much an issue. In the rural context that can be an effect. I am trying to remember the rest of your question.
Senator Poirier: Do you feel that a large portion of the population does not have the skills or the knowledge to use social media or that does not have access to social media? Should that avenue be looked at? Is more education needed in that area? Is that why many people are not using social media and so it is better to stick with the traditional newspapers, radio and television? Is the problem that some areas still do not have access to social media or is it that some people do not know how to use social media or perhaps do not have the skills to use social media?
Mr. Rodgers: Part of the problem is that the Internet has a million sources of information. For example, with ELAN we have promotion of our events. We have a core audience of 2,000 to 3,000 people. It is available to millions of people but, in terms of promoting and reaching those people, part of it is that we do not have the visibility so they do not know about us. Technically, it is not that they lack the skills or capacity; it is connecting. The Gazette has a large audience who may not read every page, but it has a structure in place to reach 500,000 people. With social media, people are all over the place bouncing from blogs to websites. It is difficult to develop a way to get a large number of people to come to a specific source of information and it takes time.
Senator Poirier: When you apply for federal funding, do you create programs specifically for the English-language market in Quebec, or do you also export your programming to the rest of Canada?
Mr. Rodgers: It depends on which program and which project. We can apply for funding through various branches of the Department of Canadian Heritage. If it is under the official language branch, then we are catering to our English-language audience and trying to provide services for them. If we apply under the linguistic duality project, then we are trying to outreach to our francophone neighbours. If we apply through the Canada Council, it may be a program that tours Canada or the world. It depends on the funding source and the nature of the program.
Mr. Cox: Are you asking a question about artistic media or commercial cultural media?
Senator Poirier: If you apply for funding to develop certain programs, specifically for the English market, once you have developed the program, do you keep it as a tool for yourself or are you able to share it with other groups in Canada that may have a need for it?
Mr. Rodgers: Once it is developed, we definitely want to share. Our first goal in the English-speaking community is to connect with our English-speaking audience. Our second goal is to connect with our francophone neighbours. The rest of it is to reach out to Canada and the rest of the world. When we work on a visibility project, those are the exact steps that we are working through. We do not limit it.
Senator Poirier: For the English minority in Quebec, do you receive information from English Canada to help you? Do you receive programs?
Mr. Cox: I live in a small town 60 kilometres outside of Montreal. For many years our family were the only anglophones in that town. People used to point to us and say, "There they are.'' We subscribe to The Montreal Gazette and have a newspaper box for its delivery. Every day I walk one kilometre down the road to the one place in town that sells The Globe and Mail from Toronto, which I buy. Online, I have a subscription to The New York Times, where I read Paul Krugman's articles about the collapse of the world economy. From the standpoint of English cultural issues in Canada The Globe and Mail is most important. From the standpoint of what movies are playing downtown or whether there is something happening at the Bell Centre, The Montreal Gazette is most important. Each of those newspapers has different resources as well as a different focus. They have resources that are quite different. You cannot depend on only one source of information. You have to have different sources of information. I am a little old fashioned in picking on only the newspapers.
Senator Tardif: Thank you for your excellent presentation. I want to pick up on a few of the things you said. You have indicated that you face many unique financial and cultural challenges. You stated that part of the solution would be in the application of Part VII of the Official Languages Act. What does that mean for you? Could you elaborate, please?
Mr. Cox: I was thinking of section 42. I hope I have the right one between 41 and 42.
Senator Tardif: I think it is probably 41.
Mr. Cox: It talks about encouraging the vitality of each of the official language minorities. Often when we talk to people in federal bureaucracies, whether Telefilm Canada or others, about the Official Languages Act, they talk to us about the fact that they have processes in place that are bilingual, that they are open if someone wants to talk to them in English or French, and so on. That is how they look at it. From the point of view of English Quebec, they say, "Well, you are 3 per cent of the English language population, so we set aside 3 per cent of all our money for you. Aren't you lucky? Don't ask for any more because you do not deserve any more.''
A francophone bureaucrat at Telefilm once told me in seriousness that she was assigned to figure out what the English in Quebec wanted and she could not understand it because we all drove Mercedes and all lived in Westmount. She wondered what the heck our problem was. It was hard to explain to her that our problem is that we want our culture to survive just as she wants hers to survive and as francophones outside of Quebec want theirs to survive.
There is great ignorance and a feeling that the English-language minority in Quebec is not legitimate, that it was accidentally bumped into the Official Languages Act, which was meant to be aimed at a real problem for francophones outside of Quebec, which everyone understands. People wonder what problem an anglophone in Quebec could have, even if they live on the Lower North Shore or even if they are the only anglophones in their town.
We deal with those kinds of issues. We would like federal government institutions to understand that they have to look at the content of their decisions, not the process of their decisions, to support the official language minority in Quebec. That means that the CRTC does not merely need to have a discussion group so that we can talk and the francophone minorities can talk and that will be the end of it for a year. Rather, sections 41 and 42 must be inside their decisions, and I gave you an example earlier.
Telefilm must ask what we need and not say that we do not need anything because we all live in Westmount and drive Mercedes. As to CBC, why does CBC, which includes the Montreal station CBMT, not have a consultation process for the official language minorities? Rather, they have a regional process that includes Montreal along with Regina, Halifax and everybody else. They meet community leaders once a year, ask them their opinions, and that is the end of it. They do not ask what kind of programming they should be doing, what they can do to encourage film making in Montreal that shows the English community not only in Quebec but to the rest of Canada as well. Those kinds of things we do not hear.
Senator Tardif: The Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages did undertake a study of the English- speaking minority in Quebec and did highlight some of the unfortunate stereotypes that you have mentioned.
Coming back to Part VII of the act, section 41 says that the government has to undertake positive measures in order to promote the vitality of the official language minority groups. From what I understand, part of that process in positive measures would include consultation and active engagement. If I understand correctly, that is what seems to be missing in the process. You are perhaps told about decisions but not necessarily consulted or actively engaged in the process. Is that correct?
Mr. Rodgers: ELAN has a different position from television and film producers. We work with artists of all disciplines and with the community. Mr. Cox works with people who are producing film and television, so they have different interests.
Two years ago there was created a federal working group on arts, culture and heritage specifically set up with groups like the Canada Council, Telefilm and Canadian Heritage to define what is meant by "active engagement'' and to figure out how to implement Part VII, section 41. That group has only met twice, but it has been the beginning of quite a productive discussion and exploration about how that might evolve.
At our second meeting, there was representation from Industry Canada for the first time. They are already investing in some study on how to develop a creative economy and looking at how that applies to arts and culture, employment and entrepreneurship.
There are things happening within the larger arts and culture sector in a dialogue between federal departments. Mr. Cox's comments about film and television production should be kept in that context and not applied to across-the- board relationships between artists and federal departments.
Senator Tardif: Thank you for that clarification.
Senator De Bané: Mr. Cox, recently Richard Stursberg, who was Vice-President of the CBC for the last six years, published his experiences while in charge of the English network. He says several times that the tension, the distrust, the jealousy, et cetera, between English-speaking Canadians and French-speaking Canadians is even more intense between the two networks within CBC. He emphasized that very much. He also stressed that there is no cooperation whatsoever between the two networks, the English CBC and the French Société Radio-Canada.
I am interested in the mandate given to the public broadcaster in the Broadcasting Act, which is to strengthen the common values of our country and make people feel closer to one another.
In what sense have CBC and la Société Radio-Canada failed you as English-speaking Quebecers living for several centuries in Quebec?
Mr. Rodgers: We should split this between radio and television, because the two sectors are quite different. CBC radio has made great strides in the last five or ten years reporting on what is happening in the francophone cultural world in particular as well as the business world. CBC radio has tried to play a leadership role in informing its listeners of what is happening in the francophone milieu and in creating a dialogue. When the English service started developing this policy, there were mixed feelings about it amongst artists because there is a limited amount of time to cover arts and entertainment, and if most of that time was being devoted to speaking about francophone productions it meant that there was less time to speak about English language productions.
However, I think most people would agree that increasing awareness in the dialogue has been a good thing. A number of CBC programs have gone out of their way to increase that dialogue. We have not seen the same kind of programming with Radio Canada. We have not seen the same kind of interest in understanding what is happening in the anglophone milieu.
We had a major conference in the fall and we were interviewed on Radio-Canada, and that particular program showed some interest, but that was quite an isolated incident.
Senator De Bané: I agree with you.
Mr. Rodgers: Radio overall I think tries to play that role. Certainly the English language service does. That is not so much the case for television, so maybe we should let Mr. Cox begin his rant — presentation.
Mr. Cox: I really do not have a rant to make because we have a problem with CBC English Montreal, the CBMT station, and part of that is probably due to resources and various other things. However, then the solution does not sit with Radio-Canada, it sits with headquarters of CBC in Toronto or in Ottawa, so that is where we feel we have to look to the issue.
We have a problem with educational television because there is none for anglophones in Quebec and the Quebec government is not about to establish one. Therefore, in order to get that kind of programming, we have to find another way to do it. We have a problem with community TV because since 1997, when the west island CF cable was bought by Quebecor, English-language community TV disappeared entirely from the province of Quebec.
We have a lot of problems at a lot of different levels, including the CBC. In some of those levels it seems to us there is a greater desire to try and find a solution than in others, but the difficulties are sometimes quite overwhelming.
Senator De Bané: On March 26, at this committee we had the testimony of the director general of regional services, Ms. Patricia Pleszczynska, and you can easily consult the exchange we had with her on the Internet. It is edition number 8 on March 26. She extensively covered what the English CBC is doing in the province of Quebec. You might want to read it and consult with her because she is responsible overall for the programming and also as director general.
Now, this is what interests me as a senator in the Canadian Parliament. I look to the three main objectives that the Broadcasting Act enacts for CBC and ask Canadian citizens through their taxes to pay. It is, first, to reflect Canada and its regions and regional audiences while serving the needs of those regions, be it English and French, reflecting for each official community its particular needs, et cetera, particularly for the linguistic minorities and strives to be of equivalent quality. If they do not do that, then we have to ask if they are really reflecting the mandate given to them and the rationale for public broadcasting.
I hear from you that, like the other official languages in minority situations, they are not being served as well as they should. For the French, they do have an extensive system in all the provinces except Newfoundland. It is mainly for their regional audience but not to show them on the network, particularly for news and public affairs.
In Quebec, what I find very sad is that we never hear about the English community on Société Radio-Canada.
Recently, Michel David from Le Devoir said that Mr. Mulcair, Leader of the NDP, was not very popular in Quebec when he was president of the English organization Alliance Quebec. I asked why he would not be allowed to serve in that position, as he did. He said, "Fortunately, they forgot me.'' Do you have any reflections that you would like to share with us?
Mr. Rodgers: On that question, Kirwan and I sit on a consulting group with the CRTC. We have made many presentations to CRTC specifically about television content, and when CRTC defines regional reflection, regional content, they mean it solely in terms of production and not content. If CBC produces a one-hour program in English in Quebec, it does not matter what subject it is, it qualifies as regional reflection.
When they are producing in English in Quebec, we would like the CBC to actually make the content pertinent to the English-speaking community. That seems to be a problem that the CRTC will not address. They will not tell producers what to produce. They will tell them how much to spend and where to produce because that is quantifiable and measurable.
Even when we have managed to convince them to have regional reflection, most of the time it is about something that has nothing to do with our own community. This is very frustrating for us.
[Translation]
The Chair: Senator Fortin-Duplessis would like to ask a final question.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: My question will be very brief. Do you intend to table another brief with the CRTC as part of the CBC/Radio-Canada licence renewal process? If so, do you have further demands or are they still the same?
[English]
Mr. Rodgers: Mr. Cox and I found that we do not have all the information necessary. CBC does not seem to report in the same detail that the private broadcasters do, so we do not have the numbers to fully be able to analyze what they do, how they do it and why they do it. We have requested of CBC to make this information available to us in time to incorporate it into our briefs for the licence renewal and we hope that will be the case.
Mr. Cox: We are going to intervene, of course, in the CBC licence renewal when that comes up. Our intervention will be more detailed than what we spoke to you about tonight. The problem of getting information that we can use from the CRTC is a constant battle, whether it is from the private broadcasters or the CBC. To the degree that vertical integration is limiting the number of broadcasters in the country, it becomes ever more important that the broadcasting system is open and transparent. We ask people such as you to ensure or to recommend to the CRTC, to the Governor- in-Council, to whomever, that vertical integration means greater transparency in reporting. Maybe when you have 25 or 50 broadcasters, everyone has to worry about confidentiality, but when you have two or three it is a different matter. We need access to better information and we hope that you will help us with that.
The Chair: On behalf of the members of the committee, I would like to thank you again for appearing today. I thank you for your presentations and the very good answers that you gave to members of the committee.
If ever there is something else you feel the committee should be made aware of, please do not hesitate, send the information to the clerk of the committee and it will be much appreciated. As you know, we are nearing the end of our study, which we still have about a month and a half before finishing this particular study.
Mr. Cox: Before you leave, could I thank Danielle Labonté, your clerk? She did a tremendous job.
The Chair: We agree. Thank you so much.
[Translation]
The Chair: We will suspend the meeting for a few minutes.
Honourable senators, the committee is continuing its study on the use of the Internet, new media, and the respect for Canadians' language rights as well as the CBC/Radio-Canada's obligations under the Official Languages Act and some aspects of the Broadcasting Act.
The committee is now focusing on the perspective of francophone organizations in the education milieu in these two studies. We are pleased to welcome Mr. Yves St-Maurice, President, and Mr. Richard Lacombe, Executive Director with the Association canadienne d'éducation de langue française. We are also welcoming Mr. Roger Paul, Executive Director of the Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones.
Thank you, gentlemen, for having accepted our invitation to appear before the committee.
I now invite the Association canadienne d'éducation de langue française to begin its presentation. La Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones will follow, after which the senators will ask questions.
Yves St-Maurice, President, Association canadienne d'éducation de langue française: Senators, let me begin by thanking you for this invitation. It is a privilege for us, of the Association canadienne d'éducation de langue française, the ACELF, to share our point of view with the members of the Senate Committee on Official Languages.
For the last 65 years, the association has contributed to the development of education in French to support the vitality of francophone communities across Canada. Always keeping track of social trends, our association quickly understood the potential offered by the Internet and used it to share its thoughts on francophone education, as well as cutting-edge French educational resources in areas dealing with francophone identity and the feeling of belonging to a contemporary and inclusive francophonie.
Allow me to offer two quick examples of our successes so far. In 1996, 16 years ago, our magazine Éducation et Francophonie became one of the first Canadian scientific publications to take advantage of this new technology, which allowed us to considerably increase our reach and accessibility. The magazine has a readership of over 9,700 in Canada and across the world.
Over the last 14 years, we have provided teachers in French schools with a bank of teaching activities (BAP) that specializes in French-language instruction. Teachers have free access to over 550 activities. It is a very popular and much-used tool. Over 270,000 BAP activities are downloaded every year.
Our association has invested a great deal of energy in maximizing all the possibilities that the Internet and social networks offer us. For example, we have organized a pan-Canadian writing contest in which classes are invited to complete a story begun by a different class located in another province or territory. Our educational partners have also accomplished wonderful things in this area.
So we can see that educational resources are available in French and that the movement is thriving. However, today we would like to tell you about the need to invest in order to create francophone spaces on line; spaces in which youngsters will be able to find themselves, relish their francophone identity and meet other young francophones.
As we know today, the socialization of young people is greatly influenced by the use of new technologies. Some examples are chatting, social networking, computer games, whether that be role-playing or action games, mobile telephones, and so forth. Yet, in francophone communities in a minority situation, and, to some degree, also in Quebec, a major portion of that socialization is taking place in English. In fact, generally speaking, many young people think that anything of real interest to them takes place in English: sports, music, films, social networks, et cetera.
There are many ideas that could be implemented to encourage the emergence of a francophone digital identity amongst our youth. Since our time is limited, we will only mention two that deal more specifically with our area, education.
First of all, we would have to set up a variety of francophone spaces on Web 2.0 where young people could express themselves, communicate, interact, discover each other and grow. This idea seems to us a priority strategy required to ensure the development and vitality of our francophone communities and the Canadian francophonie. We must recognize that many schools, not knowing how these new platforms may be used in the teaching environment to encourage the development of young francophones' identity, simply forbid their use in the classroom.
On the one hand, young francophones live in a virtual universe that is quite anglophone, and on the other hand, the school forbids — not everywhere, but in many places — most of these platforms. Luckily, there are many initiatives aimed at creatively integrating the use of these new platforms for educational reasons. For example, the use of texting for collective poetry, the creation by the students of mini-websites and blogs where they can express themselves and state their position on issues that interest them such as sports, movies, fashion, and so forth. Various new platforms that are constantly and quickly changing could allow our youth to discover things, to live and to grow in French.
Make no mistake, we are not talking about creating francophone spaces that are limited to discussing issues about the francophonie. Without excluding that extremely important theme, the idea here is that young people be able to discuss all the issues on the Internet and on social networks, and be able to do so quite naturally, in French, with their friends, their family and their social network. For example, it would be good to provide young people with the possibility of putting their own productions online, in which they could express their personal opinions on various issues of personal interest, their lives, and of course, their place in the francophone world. There, we might see audio, video, multimedia, and other types of productions. It would provide an opportunity to discuss things with other young francophones living all over Canada; an opportunity to develop their francophone digital identity.
Secondly, so as not to become quickly out of touch with youth, and to be able to fulfil our role as educators throughout their cultural development, both families and schools must develop the interpersonal and technological skills that have become necessary in today's world. Knowledge of young people's media practices, the learning involved and the role of information technology are all a part of their socialization. All these techniques allow us to better understand young people. For example, we should offer parents online resources that provide them with tips and ideas to develop their children's francophone identity in the context of the new technologies they use. We should also offer teachers resources in French on the use of new technologies in the classroom, at school, et cetera.
We need to create francophone online spaces where young people can experience their francophonie, spaces for freedom, content creation, the exchange of ideas, discovering others, other cultures and the world. Spaces where young people can be known and recognized as francophones, proud of themselves, wishing to interact as members of a francophone community and of a bilingual and forward-looking Canadian society.
Roger Paul, Executive Director, Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones: Members of the Senate Committee on Official Languages, honourable senators, good afternoon.
On behalf of the Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones and as executive director, I would like to thank you for inviting our organization to appear before your committee to discuss with you the use of the Internet, new media, social media and respect for the language rights of Canadians. Our presentation will help you get to know the federation better, while sharing our organization's perspective on the major issues you are currently examining, specifically issues relating to education.
First of all, let me briefly tell you about our federation. We are a non-profit organization that represents, across Canada, 31 francophone and Acadian school boards. These school boards offer educational services in French to over 150,000 students across 630 educational institutions in all the provinces and territories in which French is spoken by a minority of citizens.
Essentially, the federation's mission is ensuring the vitality and survival of French schools in Canada, and thus, contributing to thriving and vital francophone and Acadian communities. Our federation, wishing to meet its strategic goals, collaborates with several partners including the ACELF, of course, which has an interest in French-language education. Among other activities, allow me to mention a major contribution by the federation to assemble several partners for a major initiative, the Action Plan for the implementation of section 23.
During the Summit of Educational Stakeholders in June 2005, the 200 participants representing various groups with an interest in education from Canada's francophone and Acadian communities entrusted the federation with the responsibility of coordinating the implementation of the Action Plan — section 23. A tripartite committee was struck, made up of representatives from the three stakeholders of French education in minority settings, those being the community, including school boards, provincial and territorial governments, and the Canadian government. The tripartite committee, coordinated by the Fédération des conseils scolaires, was given the mandate to ensure the Action Plan on section 23 was implemented and that its goals were met.
The federation put forth, in November 2011, a very positive report on steps taken and accomplishments made under the Action Plan for section 23. You can find that report on our website if you are interested, and you will see that in the area of education, the francophonie is doing quite well.
In order to follow through on these successes in the area of education, the federation organized a second summit which took place just a few weeks ago in Edmonton.
Together we produced an orientation document which was discussed and agreed upon during the summit. The next action plan will be based upon that document and its contents. You may read it on our website.
Over 200 participants attended and all the francophone organizations discussed education, early childhood, teaching, cultural diversity and immigration, as well as identity-building.
French schools in a minority context and official languages: It is commonly understood that the specificity of French schools rests on their mission, which is both to educate its students, and to protect, to value and to transmit language and culture to the communities they serve.
To support the fulfillment of that mandate which is both educational, cultural and community-based, the federation supports the vision of the school as a minority citizen. When the time comes for questions, if I have the opportunity, I could tell you a bit more about that.
That vision was developed through a collaboration amongst members of the National Table on Education, which includes 12 pan-Canadian organizations with an interest in education, who shared a common wish for a unifying project. According to that vision, the French community school seen as a citizen is a place for learning, socializing, and building identity, in osmosis with the community it serves. It contributes to its students' success, to a thriving community and a blossoming awareness of solidarity. To that end, it encourages participation, and engages its students, teaching staff, parents and community partners.
With this perspective on education, the learning upon which our students' overall success is based takes place in real contexts that correspond to communities' realities and specificities. However, to realize this vision, it is essential that both official languages be learned and be integrated into all the teaching activities. Thus, the students that go to French school are developing in a context that allows a sustainable, additive bilingualism to develop.
The Internet, new media and social media as tools for learning: The growing accessibility of information and communication technologies and the ease with which young people use these technologies has considerably transformed teaching practices. Their entire relationship to knowledge is being challenged. School is no longer the only place where knowledge can be accessed. Given this new reality, the educational world has no choice but to adapt its practices in order to draw on the use of these technologies for knowledge acquisition and the development of skills that are essential for the 21st century. However, this transition to a comprehensive use of the Internet, new media and social media as educational tools must not be taken lightly. Virtual activity on the Web reflects the societies that have access to it. The universal nature of the Web makes human creativity and resourcefulness more accessible, but it also exposes the flaws and foibles of human nature.
Intelligent use of technology requires new skills of discernment and critical thought. Given the content that is found on the Web as well as what is created and posted there, the development of these new skills must be part of the curricula of all schools.
The francophone space on the Internet, in new media and social media: Mindful of their cultural mandate, French- language schools must contribute to the broadening and promotion of a francophone space. This also applies to the virtual space that is part of the daily environment in which young people communicate regularly, develop social networks, share their creations, learn all kinds of things and build their identity. The presence of French on the Internet, in new media and in social media is essential so that francophones can develop their sense of belonging and independence, while contributing actively to the vitality of francophone and Acadian communities and to the development of Canada itself. This sense of belonging and identity helps young Canadians forge their identities.
In order for schools to be able to maximize the use of information and communication technologies in their teaching practices, it is essential that they be supported in their efforts to broaden the francophone space by all education partners. Thus, the federal government and civil society must be mindful of the linguistic and cultural aspect of the content they post on the Web, as well as the type of services they offer to francophones. They must be aware that this content, in addition to informing Canadians, is used as an instructional resource by teachers. This content must convey the linguistic and cultural values of our country.
French-language schools must have unconditional support from all levels of government and from civil society. Social media is now more prevalent in schools than are textbooks, hence the importance of having as much French as possible in social media.
In closing, I was going to say that regarding the question concerning the role that the education sector can play in respecting language rights, as concerns the Internet, new media and social media, our answer is that it is a major one and goes to the very heart of the mission of French-language schools in minority communities. That is why the different levels of government and all sectors of civil society must work together to support schools and offer both real and virtual spaces for learning that take into account the diversity and needs of all Canadian citizens.
Senator Tardif: Thank you, Madam Chair. I would like to welcome you and thank you for your presentation. I would also like to commend you on all the work that you do to ensure a good French-language education for our children. I would also like to congratulate the Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones, which held its education summit in Edmonton. In fact, I believe that one of the main themes of this summit was new technologies and communication. I met many teachers who were delighted with their experience at the summit. Bravo!
I am still concerned by the fact that French is seldom used by our children in their social context. To what extent do our children have access to French-language content on new platforms, new social media? To what extent are they able to access this content in French?
Mr. Paul: Indeed, the education summit and the Grand Rassemblement de l'éducation francophone which we call the GREF were held at the same time. On this occasion, the theme of the Grand Rassemblement de l'éducation francophone was in fact the apps generation — general applications. The teachers who were present discussed social media, the presence of French and its accessibility. We must tell you that it is not easy. It is difficult to have access to French-language content and there is much work to be done in that regard.
Mr. St.-Maurice: The phenomenon of social media as we know it today is not something that adult educators between the ages of 25 and 50 are familiar with, and in a certain sense, we even lag behind our students, and that is something that we are currently working on. You must also understand that the federation and the ACELF work hand in hand, in partnership. Other federations also work with us. We are not alone, but we do work with young people and in the area of French-language education. We even deal with early childhood learning now, because we want to educate the children as soon as possible, but I would say that this work must be done in parallel. While we provide our young people with training, education and development, we must also work with those who develop and dispense learning. It is quite a challenge.
Last week, I was at the UNESCO Sectoral Commission on Education that was held here in Ottawa, and we took up a challenge for lifelong learning, adult education and literacy.
In a context where everything moves so quickly, the main challenge is to properly prepare our educators, regardless of the level at which they have to work. We need to develop their interest but also be able to guide them. The entire French-language platform will be developed thanks to the contribution of the educators. They have to know how to make things interesting. In Quebec classrooms, there are now devices that we call Smart Boards and one of the speakers at the Edmonton summit pointed out that in three years' time in Quebec, all classrooms will have a Smart Board. That is why we cannot forget teachers, they must be trained as well. And technical training is all very well, but we must prepare their minds as well. It is quite a challenge.
Richard Lacombe, Executive Director, Association canadienne d'éducation de langue française: As concerns the accessibility of Internet content, we know that there is a great deal out there, but young people and teachers are not necessarily aware of it. So we must make a major effort to educate them. We are working with the Canadian Teachers' Federation, which produced the study that we are all working with.
We will give them the opportunity to tell you about this document, entitled Technologies et construction identitaire, when they come before this committee. Along with the Canadian Teachers' Federation and the ACELF, we are currently developing a tool based on the findings of this study, which concludes that young people must be educated. We realized that a large proportion of young people are not familiar with Wikipedia and do not know what a wiki is.
There are many interesting things to discover. On social networks, as might be expected, there are more girls than boys. However, there are more boys who create blogs. And when we look at this matter more closely, we realize that it is because they can create blogs on sports or other things that interest them. There is a great deal of potential there and that is why we must make young people aware of the importance of a francophone digital identity.
We ask them, "If someone consults your Facebook profile, will they realize that you are a francophone?'' They answer, "No, they will not.'' However, one good thing is that when young people from the same school chat on social networks, half of them do so in French.
Half of them chat in English, but there is potential. We need to tap into it and that is what we want to do in the education sector and through accessibility, awareness-raising and the development of critical thinking. Regardless of what language they speak, these are things that young people will find useful when they source information that is not necessarily credible.
Senator Tardif: I greatly appreciate the answers you have given us. I think you have touched on some very important things. With regard to awareness-raising, have any networking initiatives been set up among technology coordinators and French-language school boards?
Mr. Paul: Absolutely. There is the National Leadership in Learning Network, that focuses on the knowledge and skills that young people need to cope with the 21st century.
The general managers of the 31 school boards, and soon the assistant general managers, teachers and section heads, will have access to a virtual network via Adobe Connect. We must not take for granted that teachers know everything there is to know about new technologies. You will not be surprised to learn that young people are well ahead of us.
There are also the leaders of the school boards, who on average are the same age as Mr. St-Maurice, and even Mr. Paul. Our generation was not born with a computer in our hands. We need to find ways to obtain training. Without necessarily attending conferences, we do have to be in our offices, just like young people are on their computers, and be able to communicate via computer about the resources required for learning in the 21st century. We also have to talk about what school will look like in 2024, when our young people who are starting school now will be graduating.
This is a new conversation we are having. At the same time I think it is encouraging to be able to say that we are having it and that we are going to extend this concept to all schools. The better we understand what is happening, the better we will understand how new technologies can be used, and the better equipped we will be to meet the needs of young people.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: Like my colleague, I greatly appreciated your presentations. We heard from a young woman who came from one of the Maritime provinces, I do not remember which one. We asked her all kinds of questions, she presented her brief and I believe she was in the field of teaching.
At the end of the committee, her husband asked her, "Why did you not tell them that your students spend all their time surfing the Internet in English?'' Do you feel that there is a danger that young francophones in minority communities will lose their language because they surf the Internet in English?
Mr. St-Maurice: Personally, I would say that yes, there is a danger, but it is no more serious than the danger posed by their immediate environment. In many communities, they may speak French at home, but that is not always the case. At least the French culture is imposed in the schools and when they use electronic media in the classroom, it is in French.
The outside environment will always be a factor. In Quebec, we have to deal with that but in another way. Young people exchange text messages among themselves. The language they use is indecipherable but can be understood by people of the same race. As they get older, they may change this language to the regular alphabet. But I would say that a danger exists and that is why we must work on platforms in French.
We have also created many links. When we created the banque d'activités pédagogiques, we made it accessible across Canada. These are Internet links that lead to French-language learning activities, but they are designed for educators. For children, there are more and more exchanges. Earlier, a competition that was set up this year was mentioned. We start a collective story in one class, it is continued in Alberta, brought back to New Brunswick; that is something that helps us flourish. When we set up French-language exchanges among young people, they are physical exchanges, but we also use Twitter or other media to allow them to correspond in French. Finally, to answer your question, I would say that we must create francophone spaces in all francophone communities. We are just getting started. So we have to work, we have to be aware of these things, that is what you are saying.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: You said, in the examples you gave during your presentation, that the teaching staff is sometimes reluctant to engage with new media. Did I understand correctly?
Mr. St-Maurice: Yes. People aged 35 and over are still learning. They have to learn how to use it before they can teach other people. Yes, there is a certain degree of reluctance. I have seen in many classrooms people who do not know how to use the Smart Board that they have. We must take the time to train them. They will be able to use them, but it is not something they are used to or something they learned in their teacher training courses. Yes, there is reluctance, but also fear, apprehension and a bit of laziness too. There are all sorts of things. It depends on the individual.
Senator Losier-Cool: I taught for 33 years and so I can confirm everything that you are saying. I think that people in general feel anxious when they have to deal with something new. That is why it is very important to give training institutions and universities the tools they need to train technologically savvy teachers.
I am going to ask you the killer question. The Official Languages Commissioner announced in the media this week that he wants to undertake a study to find out how the amounts negotiated in agreements between Canadian Heritage and education ministries for official languages programs are distributed.
Are your two associations, whether at the level of school boards or education, consulted during the negotiation of these agreements? If not, do you think it would be good for them to be consulted?
Mr. Paul: I can say that the word consultation is very broad. Are we sometimes asked our opinion? Yes. Do we write some briefs? Yes.
When you talk about federal-provincial agreements, because that is what we are talking about, there is a flaw in terms of consultations. It is that everything happens between the federal government and the Ministry of Education. However, it seems to me that the primary parties are the school boards, since we are talking about amounts that will be given to school boards.
First, I think that it is unacceptable. We brought it up with those responsible at Canadian Heritage. However, we were told that that is how the law is, that it is between the federal and the provincial governments, and the school board, which is the intermediary, is invited to the table only if the province invites it.
Recently, our school boards sent a letter to their Ministry of Education to ask to be at the table during discussions on education and the funds allocated to it. That only worked in some cases, not in the majority. Second, there is the follow-up once the money is given. That is also unacceptable.
Senator Losier-Cool: That is where the problem lies.
Mr. Paul: We demonstrated it not very long ago when we went to court in the Northwest Territories and the Yukon. For example, in the Yukon, it is public. The Yukon government took the amounts that were to be allocated to French- language education and reinjected them in immersion. But immersion is not French-language education. Are we concerned about that? Yes. Are there things that should be done about that? Absolutely.
Senator Poirier: With the arrival of social media in schools, the world has of course been opened to our students and our teachers. There are certainly many positive aspects with, for example, online libraries to do research. However, it has also led to problems.
I would like to hear your comments on cyberbullying among students. Has the arrival of social media created a new way to bully through cyberbullying? And if so, what could the solutions be?
Mr. St-Maurice: I think cyberbullying replaces something else. In the past, it was more physical, it happened in the schoolyard, on the street, with little gangs here and there.
With the arrival of social media, bullying is much easier. Yes, we are concerned, but it is a concern for society, for government, for police forces, et cetera. Because of cyberbullying, a cyber police is being developed. I do not know where it is. It must be busy now with the protests in Quebec, but it will have time for other things sometime.
We do not have that expertise; access is the problem. We are talking about pornography, everything that happens in cyberspace. It existed before, but today some abuse it. It is the same thing with bullying and violence. We cannot fight everything. However, in schools across Canada, anglophone and francophone schools alike, there is increased vigilance, and I have to say that the people in responsible positions I know are people who are concerned and who have to fight this new violence. We must therefore recognize this violence and know how to fight it. We must not ignore it, because a vacuum never lasts long.
Mr. Lacombe: Earlier I spoke about critical thinking regarding all the information on the Internet. Before, to do research, we went to the school or city library. Information had already been selected. Now that the library is the world, young people have to do the selecting. If at school teachers do not address the whole issue of social networks because they do not know exactly how to or what to say, they miss an opportunity to have students reflect. This situation or others that could happen could be talked about.
We were talking about netiquette, etiquette on the Internet, the fact that writing under a screen name does not mean you can write anything, and that just because it is written does not mean it does not hurt. I even think it does a lot more damage than a punch. Teachers have to go further and use social networks to bring new technologies and highlight their potential. We can see the problems, but we must also see all of the potential benefits. And we have seen that sometimes, it is through social networks that people gather to march and defend people.
Educators must be attentive and mentor young people on social networks. If it does not happen at school, children are on their own. And in addition, everything happens in English in our communities.
Mr. Paul: The theme of our last convention, to answer your question, was: "Toward the Community Citizen School.''
Schools cannot do everything. The difference between a minority francophone community and an anglophone community means that we have to do things differently. We do not have a choice. Our numbers are too small. We need each other. The purpose of a community citizen school is to have more cooperation, dialogue and coordination between the school and the community.
I would like to answer your question on cyberbullying. The intention is to have the community and the school work together.
The code of conduct does not apply to just one school. Why would it not be a code of conduct for a school community? Parents and all those who have an interest in the school would be informed, and a code of conduct would be prepared together. It would be enough to raise people's awareness and inform them of the different options.
The problem is not limited to schools. It is much larger than schools. The problem is sometimes between students at a school. However, we are talking about society.
Senator Poirier: Do francophone schools in our small communities offer the same services, in terms of social media, as schools in larger francophone cities?
Mr. St-Maurice: You are including Quebec?
Senator Poirier: Yes.
Mr. St-Maurice: You want to compare rural and urban Quebec?
Senator Poirier: I am referring to Quebec, New Brunswick, in fact anywhere. There is a small francophone school in the small municipality of Saint-Louis-de-Kent. Would the services offered there be equivalent to those offered in a francophone school in Dieppe or Moncton?
Mr. Paul: Smaller schools and those that offer more services need slightly different approaches. On the issue of social media, distance courses and e-learning, that is where we as francophones need more help than the majority. We have more small schools, proportionately speaking, than large schools. To meet the needs in smaller schools, it is important to have financial support. I am referring to small schools in particular. This support would allow the youth to take their courses on line.
In the 21st century, there is absolutely no reason why we should not be able to offer a greater variety of courses in the smaller schools. These courses already exist. They simply have to be put on line. This is already being done in several areas. However, to do this, we need more money. This is why it is important to sign agreements with the provinces. In this regard, social media, the Internet and on-line courses could be a great help to small French-language schools.
The Chair: My question is as a follow-up to Senator Poirier's question. Do these small francophone rural and remote schools have access to the Internet? Often, they do not have access to high-speed Internet. This affects the quality of what they receive. Do you think there are a number of these smaller schools that do not have access? Developing is not enough. If they do not have access, what can be done?
Mr. Paul: Indeed, several schools do not have access to large enough bandwidth to offer on-line courses. So, these small schools need to be compensated so that they can develop their infrastructure. However, there has been progress. Barely five years ago, far fewer schools had access to this bandwidth. The costs are high. One day, we should perhaps draw up a plan to prioritize the needs of francophones in some more remote areas to try to support them in this regard.
Mr. St-Maurice: We also need to reach out to the community. In Quebec, some regions that are not that remote are affected. Ten years ago, a technologically remote region could actually be quite close to the city.
In regions that are lacking in Internet and broadband supply, communities, villages and municipalities along with the RCM in Quebec or others invested in network access. Of course, schools are at the heart of this process. That was the solution and it is probably the same everywhere.
In Saskatchewan, not so long ago, schools that were far from certain centres, and there are more of them than there are schools in the urban centres, had good access to virtual networks. When there were not enough students, mainly at the secondary level, to offer a math course, they would be brought together as a virtual five-classroom class to be taught math with a teacher and cameras. So access to learning in Saskatchewan, and probably elsewhere as well, is far greater.
The attendance rates at our francophone schools are increasing, there is greater loyalty. It is not as though there are more francophones today than there once were, but we have more francophone students in the country, except in Quebec. Our schools are full of students because they build up student loyalty and the students come back. They are using section 23 and advocating for their rights in larger numbers.
Mr. Paul: On that point, in September I attended a conference on new technology which was held in Banff. We met with people from aboriginal reserves who are dealing with similar challenges to ours. The numbers are less in less developed areas. So, they are compensated. They are given funding to improve high-speed Internet access.
Senator De Bané: Does the Canadian government provide support to develop French-language content in cyberspace?
Mr. Lacombe: Yes, when it comes to the official languages program, over the last few years, we have brought forward many educational activities.
Senator De Bané: I was asking you whether the federal government provides support for the development of French- language content in cyberspace.
Mr. Lacombe: Yes. The ACELF is developing a guide which we intend to launch shortly. This is the type of thing that is funded by the federal government.
Senator De Bané: Does the federal government provide support for content other than yours to ensure French- language presence on line?
Mr. St-Maurice: Two weeks ago, I was in Edmonton and I met with publishers working with regional minorities in all provinces. They are quite advanced on the issue of on-line learning, or virtual learning. We have seen a strong trend towards these publishing houses having their learning resources available in cyberspace.
Senator De Bané: Let me try again. Is the Canadian government providing financial resources to increase the production of French-language material on line?
Mr. St-Maurice: If I were to say yes, I would be lying because I do not know.
Senator De Bané: We have now reached a new era where over the last few years, a person would be considered illiterate if they did not master these various techniques. This is North America. We represent 2.5 per cent of the population. So, it is obvious that given the numbers, the majority of what is produced is in English.
The Canadian government should consider how it can provide financial support through organizations like the two that we have here today to increase the amount of French content.
Business ventures like Google exist the world over, in all languages, because they know that the more languages they have, the more advertising they will sell and the more profits they will make. Business interests lead them to be available in all of the world's languages. So I am wondering whether perhaps your organizations should think about that and make recommendations.
Will you at the Fédération des écoles and at the ACELF be presenting a brief before the CRTC when the SRC and CBC licence renewal hearing is held in early 2013? It would be worthwhile for you to consider doing so because the Société Radio-Canada, in particular, should reflect our minorities not only in its regional programming, but over its network.
Mr. Paul: I invite you to read what is already on the national federation's website, but on behalf of all pan-Canadian organizations. When we said earlier that there is a national round table on education, the ACELF, the Canadian Teachers' Federation, the Association of Universities and Colleges of Canada, and Analphabétisation all belong to it. In short, 12 pan-Canadian organizations have agreed to four major priorities on which to work over the next five years. These four major priorities can be directly tied to the issue we are discussing today, but most specifically to pedagogy and the forging of identity.
In response to your first question concerning whether the government supports school boards and organizations with regard to the preparation of materials, I would say so, except that it is project by project. It is almost piecemeal, whereas a subject that is as important as the one we are discussing today should be the subject of a national francophone strategy. It is all fine and well that an organization such as ACELF or the National Federation of School Boards applies for funding for a project that is directly related, but as I was saying, there is no overall strategy. It is so important to the future of our young people and our communities to have one. We need a forum to be able to talk about it.
Mr. St-Maurice: With regard to the second question about making a presentation to the CRTC, we already wrote a letter some months ago about our concern regarding Radio-Canada's presence in the regions and within our communities. We will repeat that message here emphatically: if need be, we will take action, as the future of our francophone communities depends on an extremely important local news network.
In some areas, there isn't one. Community radios play this role as best they can, thanks to the goodwill of volunteers, but when a key volunteer disappears, the community radio could also disappear due to a lack of funding.
I heard representations from Nova Scotia not so long ago. One woman is going to take a sabbatical for a year from her profession to work for the radio because she likes doing radio. This was essential to the community radio in her region, which will be able to survive for another year.
Within Radio-Canada, we have seen all kinds of things happen in Quebec and elsewhere. When regional companies disappear, there is increasingly less space for local news. So culture, the community and everyone suffers as a result and we have something to say about that and we will say it. We will say it because the French-language education within our communities will either be Frenchified or disappear, and we don't want the latter.
The Chair: There are no further questions. Gentlemen, on behalf of the committee members, I want to thank you very much for your presentations and the answers to our questions.
If you have any recommendations you wish to make to the committee, you need only send them to our clerk, and we will discuss them within our committee.
(The committee adjourned.)