Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Official Languages
Issue 14 - Evidence - Meeting of December 3, 2012
OTTAWA, Monday, December 3, 2012
The Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages met this day at 4:35 p.m. to examine CBC/Radio-Canada's obligations under the Official Languages Act and some aspects of the Broadcasting Act.
Senator Maria Chaput (Chair) in the chair.
[Translation]
The Chair: Honourable senators, I call the meeting to order. Welcome to this meeting of the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages. I am Maria Chaput, a senator from Manitoba and chair of the committee. Before introducing the witnesses who are appearing today, I invite the members of the committee to introduce themselves, starting on my left.
Senator Poirier: Senator Rose-May Poirier, New Brunswick.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: Senator Fortin-Duplessis, Quebec.
Senator Mockler: Percy Mockler, New Brunswick.
Senator De Bané: Pierre De Bané, Quebec.
Senator Tardif: Claudette Tardif, Alberta.
Senator Robichaud: Fernand Robichaud, St-Louis-de-Kent, New Brunswick.
The Chair: The committee is continuing its study of CBC/Radio-Canada's obligations under the Official Languages Act and certain aspects of the Broadcasting Act. With us today are representatives of francophone organizations from Alberta and Nova Scotia. Dolorèse Nolette is President of the Association canadienne-française de l'Alberta, and with her are Isabelle Laurin, director of public affairs, and Marie-Claude Rioux, executive director of the Fédération acadienne de la Nouvelle-Écosse, and Justin Mury, President, and Ghislain Boudreau, Vice-president.
On behalf of the members of the committee, thank you for taking the time to give us your perspective on our study and to answer our questions.
I now invite Ms. Nolette to take the floor. She will be followed by Ms. Rioux. The senators will then ask their questions.
Dolorèse Nolette, President, Association canadienne-française de l'Alberta: Good afternoon, honourable senators. I would first like to thank you for inviting the ACFA back to appear in relation to your study of the CBC/Radio- Canada's obligations under the Official Languages Act and the Broadcasting Act.
My name is Dolorèse Nolette and I am the President of the Association canadienne-française de l'Alberta, also known as the ACFA. With me is our director of public affairs, Isabelle Laurin. Since 1926, the ACFA has been the representative organization for the francophone community of Alberta. We are therefore here today on behalf of the 238,000 Albertans who make up the French-speaking community in Alberta.
I would note that last Wednesday, we appeared before the CRTC concerning the renewal of the CBC/Radio- Canada's licences. In Alberta, Radio-Canada is the one and only broadcaster of Alberta programming and news in French, and plays a unique and absolutely essential role in our community.
The ACFA supported the renewal of the CBC/Radio-Canada's licences. However, our support was also motivated by concern that the only local radio and television broadcasting service that is accessible to French-speaking listeners and viewers in Alberta might be weakened.
I would like to share with you some considerations regarding the situation in Alberta, in connection with your study. One of the current issues voiced by the official language minority communities is the little reflection seen of the francophone community outside Quebec in Radio-Canada's programming and newscasts. We believe that Radio- Canada is failing in its mandate, which is to forge links among Canadians and reflect the diversity of the communities that stretch from coast to coast. The francophone community in Alberta needs to be able to see itself in Radio-Canada programming, both locally and nationally, while at the same time hearing about regional diversity across the country, and not just what is going on in Quebec.
We believe that the Radio-Canada Alberta team is generally doing an excellent job. However, our stations have few resources to cover the entire province and all of our communities, which are scattered from Grande Prairie in the northwest to Lethbridge in the south, and include Canmore, Bonnyville and Fort McMurray. In Alberta, regional coverage is often one of the weaknesses identified. The situation had improved, thanks to the Local Programming Improvement Fund, the LPIF, which made more travel to the regions possible.
However, we recently learned that the LPIF is to be phased out. The elimination of financial support for local programming weakens Radio-Canada's mission in Alberta, and it is hard to believe that the SRC will be able to absorb this shortfall without it affecting local programming. To illustrate the negative impact of this decision, we have prepared a list of at least eight recent programs that benefited from this funding in Alberta. Those programs introduced more people to our local artists and cultural activities in the francophone community in Alberta, gave them wider exposure, and even provided a francophone slant on celebrations and issues in Alberta.
The ACFA is saddened by the disappearance of this local programming in French and hopes to see funding restored for local programming that reflects life in Alberta beyond the daily news to people in Alberta and throughout Canada.
We would also like to draw your attention to the situation in Jasper. For more than 20 years, the francophone community in Jasper has been campaigning for access to Radio-Canada's French-language radio service, but to no avail. In 2007, the frustration became acute when one of the biggest cultural gatherings of the francophone community in Alberta, the Fête franco-albertaine, was held in Jasper. As usual, Radio-Canada Alberta was a major partner for the event and Radio-Canada's French-language radio service was present on site to broadcast programming. Ironically, festival goers and local people who may have been interested were unable to listen to the local programming presented. Topographic density has been cited as a reason why the radio waves cannot be received in Jasper, and yet the CBC's English radio broadcasts can be heard there. It should be noted that Jasper is located within a national park, Jasper National Park, which has to offer services in both official languages and which is visited by about two million people every year. In addition, Jasper has a francophone school and a French immersion school. In May 2011, the Government of Alberta even announced that a new francophone school would be built in Jasper in order to better meet the needs of this growing community. This demonstrates the francophone vitality in Jasper, both among its visitors and in the local community.
The representatives of Radio-Canada have suggested that residents and seasonal workers in Jasper access Radio- Canada's French radio service via Sirius or the Internet. It should be noted that Sirius is a pay channel and that it broadcasts Radio-Canada's Montreal programming, not local programming. In addition, the Internet is not a solution for visitors and for people who are often driving cars rather than surfing the net.
To us, this is a major case where there is no equivalence between the official languages, since the service exists in English but not in French. This is therefore a negative measure in relation to our community.
Concerning Part VII of the Official Languages Act, we believe that Radio-Canada, as a federal institution, has a duty to consult our official language minority community. Relations between Radio-Canada Alberta and the francophone community of Alberta are historic and continue to be very precious. The francophone community of Alberta is enormously appreciative of the partnerships established with Radio-Canada in relation to the media and events.
That being said, in an environment where there is constant turnover of management staff, relationships are becoming increasingly ad hoc and dependent on who is in a position at any time. When the position of director of regional communications in Alberta was transferred home to Vancouver, our community was not consulted.
That person has an important liaison role to play, between Radio-Canada and our community, and the geographic distance this created does not always allow for a complete understanding of the issues. In the absence of a structure and structuring consultation mechanism between Radio-Canada and our community, there are only conversations about random issues. We would like relations to be formalized so the communities can voice their concerns, their needs and their priorities to Radio-Canada.
We also believe that commitments to linguistic duality do not relate only to Radio-Canada; they also involve the CBC. However, we have the impression that we are invisible to them. We do believe that the CBC/Radio-Canada occupies a special niche and therefore has an opportunity to build bridges and promote better understanding between French-speaking and English-speaking Canadians everywhere in Canada.
In conclusion, we would like to reassert our deep affection for Radio-Canada. Francophones in our communities need Radio-Canada in order to see and hear themselves and enhance their vitality. It is therefore with a great deal of respect that we submit these thoughts, in the hope that they will influence some major changes for the benefit of the vitality of the French-speaking community in Alberta. Thank you for your attention, and we will be happy to answer your questions.
Marie-Claude Rioux, Executive Director, Fédération acadienne de la Nouvelle-Écosse: Good afternoon. With me today are two communications experts: on my right, Justin Mury, President of the Fédération acadienne de la Nouvelle-Écosse, who also did a placement in journalism at the SRC, Chronicle Herald, and CTV Atlantic, and has been employed at the Île Madame community radio station and a freelance journalist for the Courrier de la Nouvelle- Écosse.
On my left, Ghislain Boudreau, Sectoral Vice-President of the Fédération acadienne. For the last four years he has been the general manager of CIFA, the community radio station, treasurer of the ARC and Vice-President of the ARCA, the Alliance des radios communautaires de l'Atlantique.
Once again, thank you for this invitation to share our thoughts about compliance with the Official Languages Act by Radio-Canada.
Incorporated on October 14, 1968, the Fédération acadienne de la Nouvelle-Écosse was established to promote the vitality and overall development of Nova Scotia's Acadian and francophone community with the help of its members, namely, French-speaking regional, provincial and institutional organizations.
The Fédération acadienne is a true federation composed of 29 regional and sectoral agencies and clients working to advance the federation's mission.
The Fédération acadienne fulfils its mission by acting as the main spokesperson for the Acadian and francophone population of Nova Scotia; by facilitating cooperation and partnership among all the agencies working in Nova Scotia's Acadian and francophone community, while respecting each agency's mandate; by offering services and programs that address the needs of its members; and by supporting its members in promoting the vitality and development of Nova Scotia's Acadian and francophone community.
The CBC/Radio-Canada is central to the Fédération acadienne's communications portfolio. In fact, Acadians and francophones in our province are very aware of the important role the public broadcaster plays in their lives: they know that no private broadcaster would be able to amass the necessary capital needed to broadcast radio and television programming and maintain a web presence in remote areas where the audience ratings are not high enough. CBC/SRC is the only broadcaster that can provide quality, French-language services to Nova Scotia's Acadian community.
Although the province's Acadians and francophones acknowledge this importance, our community is far from satisfied with the services provided by CBC/SRC, especially when it comes to the coverage of events in Nova Scotia.
One part of CSC/SRC's mandate is especially relevant to the Acadian and francophone communities as a whole, namely: (a) to reflect Canada and its regions to national and regional audiences, while serving the special needs of those regions; and (b) to contribute to shared national consciousness and identity.
In 2007 and in 2009, the Société nationale de l'Acadie published the findings of studies on the representation of the regions on the national radio and television network. These studies clearly indicated that the news, stakeholders, experts and topics dealt with on radio and television overwhelmingly reflected what was happening in Montreal, and unfortunately, nothing has changed since 2009. In fact, it is very rare for an Acadian expert — much less an Acadian from Nova Scotia — to be invited on a public affairs program to comment and/or provide a different point of view. The same holds true for variety shows, where Quebec artists — some of them complete unknowns — are invited to take part in several programs during the same week, whereas Acadian artists have to be superstars before anyone pays them the least bit of attention.
As for online news, on any randomly chosen day, news from Quebec is far more common than national or international news, and news from our province is practically non-existent. Proof: in the online news for Thursday, November 8, 2012, the top story dealt with the ongoing raids being conducted by the anti-corruption unit in Laval. Three of the secondary stories dealt with international issues, two were about Ontario, one was about Quebec and one dealt with a national issue. In fact, it seems that reporters, researchers, producers and other artists view Radio-Canada as a regional station rather than a national network.
In Nova Scotia, and I think this is the case more or less everywhere in Canada, people refer to SRC as ``Radio- Montréal''. This nickname clearly reflects how the province's Acadians and francophones feel: an insignificant story from Montreal gets preferential treatment over an important story in Nova Scotia.
These observations are corroborated by the fact that programs such as L'épicerie, La facture and others rarely come to Nova Scotia; national and international stories are covered only from Montreal and feature experts from the province of Quebec. This situation is very detrimental to Nova Scotia's Acadians and francophones, who feel like second-class citizens. It is not by seeing and hearing only Quebecers on television and radio that our province's Acadians and francophones will feel valued. Lastly, in the longer term, it is Quebec's memory in all its diversity that will be preserved, to the detriment of our memory and that of Canada's French language and culture as a whole, we believe.
In short, Nova Scotia's Acadians do not recognize themselves in Radio-Canada programming: they do not see, hear or read about themselves.
We understand that current budget restrictions, especially the CRTC's decision not to renew the Local Programming Improvement Fund, have forced the CBC/SRC to rely on private companies to produce programs. However, we believe that this devolution of powers should nonetheless respect the CBC/SRC's mandate and Canada's regional diversity, regardless of ratings and advertising revenues.
Here, as an aside, I would like to say how concerned I am by the remark made at the CRTC last week by Mr. Lalande, the President of Radio-Canada, when he said there was absolutely no question of having more than 15 per cent of the coverage in Radio-Canada's television news. That is for the national Radio-Canada. Although the Fédération acadienne applauds Radio-Canada Acadie's coverage of major events such as election night and the Jeux de l'Acadie, it deplores the preferential treatment given to New Brunswick over Nova Scotia and the other Atlantic provinces.
Again for example, coverage for the Acadia region on the SRC website on Thursday, November 8, 2012, featured four stories from New Brunswick and none from any other Atlantic province, despite the fact that the Fédération acadienne was appearing before the province's Law Amendments Committee that very day with regard to the elimination of protected Acadian ridings, something that is an extremely important issue and a priority for our community, obviously.
In short, Nova Scotia, which is already marginalized by SRC, is also marginalized by Radio-Canada Acadie on the web, and the same is true for radio and television.
SRC produces only two French-language regional radio programs in Nova Scotia: Réveil Nouvelle-Écosse and Au Rythme des courants. It produces no television programs in Halifax. Nova Scotia's Acadian community is clearly disadvantaged when compared with Moncton or Montreal. CBC/SRC's weekly radio schedule lists 32 programs produced in Montreal and four produced in New Brunswick. Nova Scotia has only two programs, both produced in Halifax. Moreover, three of the four programs produced in New Brunswick air only in Atlantic Canada; none of the programs produced in New Brunswick or in Nova Scotia are broadcast across the entire network.
Lastly, despite the quality of CBC/SRC productions, the Acadian and francophone community we represent believes that the Corporation could do a better job of fulfilling its mandate to reflect Canada and its regions to national and regional audiences, while serving the special needs of those regions.
We hope that, as a result of CRTC hearings for the renewal of CBC/SRC's license and the hearings of the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages, the Corporation will make an effort — and I would go so far as to say will be required to make an effort — to ensure that Nova Scotia's Acadians and francophones are better represented in its programming, that they get to know francophones in the other provinces better and that we are able to celebrate our diversity.
Senator Tardif: I would first like to thank the two organizations that represent their communities for their excellent presentations. You have provided a very clear and concise explanation of the unique issues in francophone communities.
One common thread emerges from the presentations by the witnesses who have appeared before our committee, and in general, I would say that the organizations recognize the essential role played by Radio-Canada in their province and their region.
However, there is deep concern and dissatisfaction regarding Radio-Canada's capacity to reflect the Canadian francophone community in all regions, and the fact that it is mainly focused on Montreal, and mainly Quebec.
Earlier, the ACFA mentioned the partnership role played by Radio-Canada Alberta. How do you see the role of partner in a time of budget cuts? Do you think that might have an effect? I think you alluded to that, but how do you see the effect of budget cuts on the partnership role that a public broadcaster can play? I would also like to hear from the representative organization from Nova Scotia on that question.
Ms. Nolette: We did allude to that in our presentation, when we expressed our deep concern about budget reductions. That will certainly have an impact on the already problematic presence of Radio-Canada, given the geography of Alberta and the fact that there are francophones in every corner of the province. The distances are so great that the SRC has trouble covering some important events in Alberta's francophone community. We are apprehensive about the phasing out of the LPIF. There had in fact been a door open to having a more visible presence in the various regions and for major events. We are particularly afraid that the phasing out of the funding will have a significant impact on the capacity of the SRC's teams to travel everywhere in the province, so they can be present and offer a lens on what is happening in the various regions, and offer that visibility elsewhere in the province and Canada.
Ms. Rioux: I will be a little less polite than Ms. Nolette. I have been working in not-for-profit organizations for about 20 years, and for 20 years we have been offered the excuse of cuts at Radio-Canada to explain the fact that we are barely visible on television and radio and on the Internet. In my opinion, that is just an excuse. I think there are legal precedents to show that when you have a budget, you set priorities and you determine what you are going to make your priority. It seems that for Radio-Canada, the Acadian regions, and in any event Nova Scotia, when they talk about Nova Scotia, they are generally talking about what is happening in Halifax. So you realize that if we are a minority, in Halifax, at Radio- Canada in Acadie, and even more so at Radio-Canada in Montreal, imagine what the Acadian regions of Nova Scotia — Clare, Richmond, Chéticamp and Pomquet — think. In my opinion, that is just an excuse.
Second, instead of sending journalists to the regions, it would be much better to find professionals and people who live in these regions to be reporters, to convey the message from the regions, and what is happening in the regions, at the SRC. It would be more dynamic and it would mean that the needs of the regions could be taken into account, at lower cost, while at the same time ensuring that our various regions are given visibility.
Senator Tardif: Have you had cuts? Has Radio-Canada in your region had cuts in the last two years?
Ms. Rioux: Two years ago, at suppertime, Radio-Canada broadcast a call-in show. I commented on the news at that time. It was a call-in show and a radio program broadcast out of Moncton that was on every day, and talked about what was happening in the Atlantic region. That program no longer exists, unfortunately.
We also hear that because of this year's cuts at Radio-Canada, journalistic coverage of events in the Acadian and francophone communities is starting to be limited, to mention only the morning news. Journalists will no longer necessarily be able to travel at noon since that means overtime and journalists will no longer be paid overtime. As you know, for a large majority of our organizations, launches and press conferences are held on the weekend, in the evening, or at least in the afternoon. In my opinion, these are concrete methods or measures that we will see in the very near future, and I suspect we can even see them now.
Ms. Nolette: Where we live, in Alberta, one of the things that absolutely has to be mentioned is the fact that regional or provincial news for Alberta has been confirmed at least for this year, and has been maintained. We have access to news every day, seven days a week, here in Alberta, something that was not the case. Last year, we had only five days a week. Where we are afraid of cuts or reductions is in the various summer projects, attendance at events and the big get- togethers. We could count on Radio-Canada attending — radio teams, television teams — but we no longer can. Some special broadcasts for particular anniversaries or very special activities will never see the light of day again.
Senator Tardif: With $200 million in cuts over the next three years, are you afraid of centralization, and that the regions will be further marginalized?
Ms. Nolette: The fact that the communications director for Alberta has been transferred, that this management position has been transferred to Vancouver, for example, means that there is one less person in Alberta, compared to the people we had been able to interact with and have the feeling we were heard and understood by. In itself, this regionalization is a concern in terms of the management of Radio-Canada. As well, we are led to believe that increasing regionalization of the various broadcasts and programming is what we can expect.
Ms. Rioux: I would also like to go a little further on that subject. We are afraid of additional cuts. This year, already, the Radio-Canada regional newscast on the morning program is no longer on the half-hour. It is very easy to get into a habit, and we know how important it is to have radio listening habits. We can count on listening to the regional news at a particular time of day. Now, the newscast has been moved to 38 minutes after, sometimes 40 minutes after, and sometimes 34 minutes — we never know. What we know is that the news commentator — because it is no longer someone reading the news, it is talk radio — also does the news for Prince Edward Island, Newfoundland, and I believe New Brunswick. That means there is a gap between the news broadcast on the half-hour in Prince Edward Island, and us, who follow. Because we never know when the newscast will start, we run the risk of missing important news.
As well, the number of minutes devoted to regional news has been significantly reduced since two years ago, falling from about nine minutes to close to four minutes. And in addition, the newscast is not just about news from Nova Scotia.
We are worried about further cuts. In fact, we are wondering how they could make any more cuts, apart from cutting the entire broadcast, and I can assure you there would be a hue and cry from the Acadian and francophone community here. We really are very poorly served.
That being said, I want to point out that the Radio-Canada journalists in the Halifax region and Nova Scotia in general do an excellent job. Nonetheless, I really have the impression that they are not given the tools they need to do that job.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: Thank you. First, Ms. Nolette and Ms. Rioux, I enjoyed listening to your briefs. It really bothers me to hear francophone communities that feel completely or almost completely rejected, not being treated like the others; I find that very difficult to hear. In its 2015 strategy, ``Everyone. Every way'', CBC/Radio-Canada committed itself to maintaining and expanding the kinds of regional programming beyond information, to reflect local communities. Ladies, I would like to know whether your minority communities were consulted by Radio-Canada about your futures. Did you have consultations with Radio-Canada? I have asked other groups that came before you that question, and it really enlightened me.
Ms. Nolette: That is one of the arguments we made before the CRTC, precisely concerning the lack of consultation and lack of opportunity for dialogue that the francophone community in Alberta feels, that is, that there are no open doors for consultation. How does Radio-Canada intend to meet our needs without talking to us? That is what concerns us.
Ms. Rioux: I will confirm that it is the same for Nova Scotia; it is exactly what Ms. Nolette said. To my knowledge, there was one consultation with the Acadian community when Sylvain Lachance and Alain Saulnier were at Radio- Canada, and that is about five years ago now. To my knowledge, there have been no others since. We live with the decisions that come from Radio-Canada Montreal and we live with the consequences when we learn about them indirectly or very late in the day. And at that point it is already too late to respond.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: I have two more questions.
The Chair: Yes, but Senator Robichaud would first like to ask a supplementary to your question; I will come back to you then.
Senator Robichaud: You have criticized the lack of consultation and you have told us that. What do the people at Radio-Canada say? Because you have certainly brought this lack of consultation for the francophone regions of Canada to their attention. What is their answer?
Ms. Rioux: What they tell us is that they understand our concerns completely. They understand our worry completely, and then absolutely nothing changes from one year to the next. So at any given time, there is no dialogue happening, and it confirms that absolutely no one has listened to us and our needs are not being considered. Once again, I would reiterate that the excuse we are given is the budget cuts at the SRC. I do not think that is a valid excuse.
Ms. Nolette: For us, when it comes to discussing the broad directions and issues that concern us as a community, there is no communication channel open with Radio-Canada.
The Chair: Thank you. I return the floor to Senator Fortin-Duplessis.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: Thank you.
I am almost afraid to ask my question because people seem to have been so mistreated by Radio-Canada, but I would like to know whether you at least have some small example of something good that Radio-Canada has done.
Ms. Nolette: Where the work on the ground is done in collaboration, in partnership, and it contributes to our community development, where it is very difficult, where we feel that we are really neither heard nor seen, is when we cross the province and deal with management or when we watch and listen to Radio-Canada from a national perspective. With respect to our current interactions in the province and in our region with Radio-Canada, there are many fine examples of collaboration, of partnership, and of listening; but there is a reduction in the presence of administrators or managers at the regional level.
Ms. Rioux: In terms of good news, Radio-Canada covers the national day of Acadie, the Fête nationale de l'Acadie, very admirably, except that this event, if I am not mistaken, always takes place in New Brunswick. But we see ourselves in it, at least. As well, there are major events like the Jeux de l'Acadie, which were held this year, this year being an exception, in Nova Scotia. Radio-Canada was there; you have to understand that from Moncton, it is not much farther to get to the Argyle region than to go to the Edmundston region in New Brunswick, if the Jeux d'Acadie had been held in that region. So yes, the coverage was excellent, so that is for large-scale and widely known events. But otherwise, for other events and other activities, I am unfortunately not able to offer worthwhile examples.
The Chair: Would you allow a supplementary from Senator Poirier?
Senator Poirier: Thank you for being here with us today. Are the services you receive today better than, the same as, or worse than 5 or 10 or 20 years ago?
Ms. Rioux: For Nova Scotia, they are worse. We had a Radio-Canada journalist who covered the southwestern region of Nova Scotia who retired; she has not been replaced. We had a sports journalist who moved to Moncton; he has not been replaced. We had a journalist for the Cape Breton region, and I understand that her position is going to be filled, but every time it takes a long time to happen.
There is something that must be understood; when you come from a situation in a minority community that is as small a minority as Nova Scotia, the Acadians have a certain distrust of journalists. A relationship of trust has to be built up between the journalist and the Acadian community, in order for Acadians to confide in them and share their concerns, their needs, their situation. And when so many staff are changed, it has to be rebuilt every time. Every time, not only do we have the void left by the departure of the person who has not been replaced, but we also have the fear and the time it takes to rebuild trust among the Acadians of Nova Scotia. It is therefore certainly worse than five years ago.
I gave you the example earlier of the noon broadcast that was eliminated and replaced with a network program. I gave you other examples of journalists who have not been replaced, and that continues. Unfortunately, we cannot say there has been improvement; we can only say there has been a reduction in services.
Ms. Nolette: In Alberta, the situation is not as clear as it seems to be for Ms. Rioux. Our situation is uneven, so it very much depends on the individuals who are there and the funds available. Since there are no regulations, there is nothing to compel Radio-Canada, first, to consult, or second, to have any particular presence. The situation we live with is still the same, in the sense that we are dependent on the individuals who are there.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: My comment is to Ms. Nolette. I find it distressing that you cannot get Radio-Canada radio broadcasts in Jasper, because the community is very important. I imagine that in Edmonton or Calgary, there must be news in French for the communities. That is an injustice, and I do not know what we could do to change it.
Ms. Nolette: It is a question of receiving the broadcasts from Edmonton in Jasper. Our provincial association has worked with the community and the local association to get some movement on the situation and report the responses I related in my speech to Radio-Canada. At the same time, we take that opportunity to point out that in Jasper we can get CBC Radio 2 broadcasts, but we cannot get Radio-Canada broadcasts, in spite of the fact that we had been told it was virtually impossible to receive Radio-Canada in Jasper. We are bringing the question back to the surface, both to raise awareness of the issue and to pursue other avenues in collaboration with the Jasper community.
Ms. Rioux: I would like to point out that in Truro, Nova Scotia, it is exactly the same situation. Truro is smaller than Jasper, but it is still located in a geographic depression and the radio waves do not reach there.
It is important to note that Truro has had its school since 1997. It has grown from 10 students to over 250. That leads to mobilization in the francophone community, but it is still impossible to receive Radio-Canada in Truro.
Senator Tardif: I would like to come back to the situation in Jasper and now certainly in Truro. When you mentioned that, and the fact that it has been the situation for over 20 years now, what was the CRTC's reaction when you appeared at the hearings? Did they offer any suggestions about how to remedy the situation? What was the response?
Ms. Nolette: We took the opportunity to appear before the CRTC to draw attention to the situation. Of course they questioned us, and the comments from the panel members showed how unacceptable they considered the situation to be, but at the same time they did not offer any solution. They noted everything we said. It remains to be seen, now, what this might prompt the CRTC to consider.
Senator McIntyre: First, I would like to thank and congratulate both organizations for their presentations. The Canadian broadcasting system identifies three distinct components: the private, public and community sectors. We all know that the public broadcaster has to play a leading role, that it, it has primary responsibility for promoting the French language everywhere across Canada. In other words, the public broadcaster should be involved in promoting French both inside and outside Quebec.
That being said, what role do you think the private sector and the community sector should play?
Ms. Rioux: The two sectors should complement the public sector. We sometimes see partnerships between the community sector and the public sector. In Nova Scotia, we can forget about the francophone private sector; it is non- existent. That is obvious. For the community sector, we have numerous community radio stations, and I would venture to say they have been created precisely because francophones and Acadians in Nova Scotia cannot see themselves in Radio-Canada's programming. A need is created and when you do not have tools, you make them.
In terms of partnerships, there are programs that are jointly produced and shared. There are also shared antennas, but even in Nova Scotia, there is much less sharing of Radio-Canada's equipment and material with community radio stations, for example, than is done out west.
I would like to give the floor to my vice-president, who is the general manager of a community radio station in the Argyle region, and will tell you more about this.
Ghislain Boudreau, Fédération acadienne de la Nouvelle-Écosse: I will give you an example. My radio station has existed since 1990. We have always had a partnership with Radio-Canada for the rental of our antenna. We lease a space on Radio-Canada's antenna. We pay about $1,000 per month for the antenna space. That is a large amount for a community radio station.
Marie-Claude Rioux meant there is no equality between Atlantic and Western Canada. I have tried for four years to have my station, to have a link on Génératrice, on the Radio-Canada website, but it has always been denied. However, I know that another community radio station in the west, and right in the Radio-Canada building, is on Radio- Canada's Génératrice. It costs them no more than us. It would be nice to have equality among all the community radio stations across the country.
Ms. Nolette: To continue along the same line as that answer, we can also forget about private francophone radio stations in Alberta. There are two community radio stations in Alberta that arose out of francophones' need to hear their own voices where they live.
There are at least two or three other community radio projects in the planning stage. But if I understand correctly, these are projects being developed apart from Radio-Canada. I do not believe there are any efforts or opportunities for collaboration.
In any event, I cannot speak from very much knowledge, except to tell you that I was in fact one of the founding members of the community radio station in northwestern Alberta, in my home community and that, at that time, we really did develop it apart from Radio-Canada.
I think the public broadcaster, Radio-Canada, has a role and a responsibility in respect of community development and a duty to these communities, and it has a role to play in collaborating with them to promote and develop the language and the francophone community's feeling of belonging.
Senator McIntyre: I have another question. Both of you have submitted briefs. In the case of Alberta, it was a brief to the CRTC concerning the CBC/Radio-Canada's licence renewals in November, and for Nova Scotia, it was a brief submitted to our committee.
Do you then have specific expectations from the CRTC and our committee, and if so, what are they?
Ms. Rioux: To my mind, the expectations are clear. I think Radio-Canada has to be forced to comply with its mandate, which really is to cover the entire francophone community in Canada.
You know, we can do the exercise of comparing it with the CBC. The CBC has a much greater presence in the regions than Radio-Canada does. I do not understand why. I think it is starting to look like an insult on Radio- Canada's part, because when it has been 20 years and we are still sending the same message, it becomes extremely frustrating in the long run.
So if no one forces Radio-Canada to actually comply with its mandate, and if no one calls the president of the SRC into line when he offers arguments or views to the CRTC saying it is impossible to increase regional content in Radio- Canada's news to more than 15 per cent, then who is going to do it? To repeat: we have been saying this for 20 years.
I submitted a brief to the CRTC when I was at the Fédération des parents, in another life, and I can tell you the situation has not changed; in fact, it has got worse. This is extremely discouraging for us.
And so we are pleading with you to force Radio-Canada to comply with its mandate and not just look at ratings, because at that rate, we will obviously never have the presence we want.
I understand that a private radio station has to pay attention to ratings, or take them into account, but when a public station or a public service that is supposed to represent the entire community gives us ratings as the excuse to justify its weak presence in the regions where the Canadian francophone community lives, it is extremely frustrating.
So we are counting on you to pass the message on and we hope the CRTC will require that Radio-Canada comply with its mandate, since it is the regulatory body.
Senator De Bané: Thank you, Madam Chair. I would first like to express my admiration to Ms. Nolette, Ms. Rioux and the people with them for the vitality of the communities in Alberta and Nova Scotia.
I grew up mainly in Trois-Rivières and Quebec City, where I never had occasion to hear English spoken. I learned the other official language when I arrived in Ottawa but I never had occasion to speak it. I read English but I could not speak it. To see your vitality and your determination, that is something very important.
Like many other people, I have been struck by the strength of the voices of the francophone communities from the majority anglophone provinces at the CRTC. I felt that it had an extremely strong impact and the CRTC took notice.
The appointment of Mr. Cormier to the position of director general of news programming at Radio-Canada was a very important event. He is a man who is deeply sensitive to the things that happen outside Quebec. That must not cause us to lose sight of the immensity of the challenge he faces. He is in Montreal, where a large majority of Radio- Canada personnel work, as journalists, technicians, researchers, on-air hosts, and performers. That is all there is at Radio-Canada in Montreal.
At the CBC, Ms. Rioux, it is the opposite. The CBC has only a third of its journalists in Ontario, one-third, in a province with a population of 13 million, which is almost half of anglophone Canada. That explains why they have journalists in Nova Scotia, while Radio-Canada has about two-thirds of its journalists in Quebec. On a per capita basis, there are three times more journalists per person in Quebec than in Ontario. That tells you why there are a lot fewer journalists than there should be in Nova Scotia and there is a single one in the whole vast area of Newfoundland and Labrador.
And so what you have said is extremely important. And the Broadcasting Act has assigned one mission, the same mission, to the Société Radio-Canada, which is called the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation in English. They are not two corporations. There is a single one in the act, not two. There is one president. This corporation does not operate in the same way. In one case, it is Canada-wide, and in the other, it is in Quebec. You are absolutely right.
That is why section 3(1)(m) of the Broadcasting Act expressly states that the corporation must provide minority communities with a regional presence, that Radio-Canada must do its best, but also with visibility nationally. And it is not doing that.
On March 26, we heard from the director general of regional services. She told us that minority communities are entitled to be reflected on the Canada-wide network. In fact, however, as you have said, that is not true, and you are not reflected there.
You have created a shockwave. I would like to say that I am starting to feel that Radio-Canada is finally waking up. I wanted to tell you that with all my heart and with all my admiration.
As Senator McIntyre said, we need to know what you expect of us because we are here to require that the mission set out in the Broadcasting Act be complied with. Now that we have not only the Official Languages Act, but also the supreme law of the land, our Constitution, where both languages are supposed to be reflected through the CBC/Radio- Canada loudspeaker, you are absolutely right.
In closing, I would like to tell you that the two briefs are excellent. Ms. Nolette, when I see that between 2006 and 2011, according to Statistics Canada, there were 13,000 more people in Alberta who spoke French, that really warms my heart. Bravo and thank you to both organizations.
Senator Robichaud: Personally, the more I hear the witnesses who appear before us, the more I have the impression that we have started on a downward spiral that it will be very hard to break out of: budget cuts lead to programming cuts, and the regions are the first to suffer from the cuts, and the cuts lead to a decline in the ratings. I cannot think anything other than that at some point, people are going to abandon Radio-Canada because it is no longer fulfilling its mission, which is to connect the francophone communities in the country.
I do not think community radio stations will be able to fill that role, because they do not have the financial means or the resources. Where are we going with all this? I am really quite worried.
Ms. Rioux: I would first like to respond to Senator De Bané's remarks, and tell him that we would like to urge you and the entire Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages not to let yourself be lulled by the fine words of the Vice-President of Radio-Canada and Mr. Cormier. The reality is completely different, and apart from goodwill or fine words, the fact remains, and we, the francophone and Acadian communities, are very familiar with results-based management, that when it comes to results, Radio-Canada presents a very, very poor image.
The other thing, too, when we present our grievances, and Senator Robichaud will be very familiar with this — Radio-Canada has been criticized very sharply in Acadie Nouvelle and in New Brunswick — when we present our grievances to Radio-Canada, the president denies that there is any problem, when in reality, the community is stating the facts.
The least they can do is listen attentively to us and see what can be done to solve the problem. Unfortunately, that is not what happens.
So yes, you are right to be worried; yes, you are right when you say we are setting off on an ever-worsening spiral, because we are less and less present.
As you know, the assimilation rate in Canada is still a reality. We have people who are losing their language; there are more and more exogamous families, as well, so if Radio-Canada is not there to represent us and enable us to get to know one another. . . . You know, I always give the example that we know, for instance, that there were three murders in Quebec yesterday — three children, and that is extremely sad — but I will never believe there were no murders in Halifax too. It is really disproportionate, because we are perfectly capable of having a discussion with people in Quebec about something in the news, but the reverse is not true.
You are right to say you have concerns, and the purpose of our brief is to share those concerns.
Ms. Nolette: The vaunted increase in the francophone population in Alberta since the last census, really, these are people who come from all over Canada and elsewhere in the French-speaking world. Francophones in Alberta need to hear voices and see faces from our own communities when we are in our communities. This is also a role that Radio- Canada can play, by taking responsibility for reflecting francophones from all across Canada.
As well, I think this entire situation of a dog chasing its own tail, because it is a bit like that too — I would like to reiterate that the SRC needs to adopt firm regulations that talk about responsibilities in terms of results, responsibilities for reflecting the Canadian francophone community, and also regulations in terms of real consultation, a genuine dialogue.
Senator De Bané: I would just like to say something to Ms. Rioux. You said that it is not Radio-Canada's mission to chase after ratings. On that point, I would like to tell you that you are in good company, because in 1977, the Chair of the CRTC, in response to the Prime Minister of Canada, said at the beginning of his report — a special report the Prime Minister had requested — that CBC/Radio-Canada's mission is not about ratings, that the mission of the national public broadcaster is about the quality of the programming and accomplishing the missions assigned to it by the act.
That is in the special report by Mr. Boyle, the Chair of the CRTC, to the Prime Minister of Canada, who had requested the report. It states on the first page of the report that the mission of the national broadcaster is not to chase after ratings. And that is what Céline Galipeau said in Moncton to justify the fact that they do not have coverage outside Quebec. She cited the fact that there is competition in Montreal from TVA and they have to focus on Quebec.
The Chair: Thank you, Senator De Bané. I would like to thank the witnesses who have been here with us today, the representatives of the organizations in Alberta and Nova Scotia.
On behalf of the members of the Official Languages Committee, I would like to thank the witnesses who have been with us today, the representatives of organizations from Alberta and Nova Scotia, from the bottom of my heart. Thank you for your excellent presentations and your direct and specific answers to the senators' questions.
Honourable senators, before we leave, I would like to remind you that the committee will be having a meeting outside our usual slot this Wednesday at 3:30 p.m., to hear from the Minister of Canadian Heritage and Official Languages.
I would like to thank our witnesses again, and the meeting is adjourned, honourable senators.
(The committee adjourned.)